Cheap vs. Expensive Generator (Surprising Results)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- I take the Predator 13,000 tri-fuel head to head with the Kohler 14RCA to see which is better for powering our off-grid homestead. // Thanks to MRCOOL for sponsoring this video! Central Ducted HyperHeat DIY: mrcool.com/central-ducted/
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**NOTE: We purchased both of these generators and all of the
opinions are our own**
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00:00 Generator Face-off: Kohler vs. Predator
01:59 Generator cost, portability, and fuel options
04:03 Generator usability and output
05:17 Kohler and Predator generator performance test
07:36 Efficiency of heat pump technology
09:52 Generator fuel consumption and weatherproofing
12:07 Generator sound and maintenance
13:29 Warranties and extended service plans
15:49 Installing a smart thermostat
17:29 Wiring and soldering an auto start
23:25 Testing the generator - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Thanks to MRCOOL for sponsoring this video! Central Ducted HyperHeat DIY: mrcool.com/central-ducted/
you could of used sensibo instead of using a different thermostat. Obviously doesnt make a difference now but in the future it is pretty neat tech.
the mr cool ducted system looks very cool.
Preditor low output: Could be the fuel you used. Did you use a high octane fuel, or regular gas? Also might have issues using gasoline with Ethanol. Preditor recommends a premium, high octane fuel. Another consideration is your altitude, as all engines lose power when above sea level.
Why did you choose the hyperHeat over the Universal unit? Also are you concerned that the air handler and ducting is located in the unconditioned space?
Been watching y'all's videos for some time, your wife is a rare catch she can do things lots of men can't! Like the excited nature of this video.
As a traveling horse rider I use and have been around lots of different generators. For a large run everything with a generator I prefer the WinCo (only American made on the market) very dependable. My horse trailer with full living quarters has central heat and air also has a separate gas heater . I have a solar system that normally powers everything but air conditioner 13,500 BTU I run a predator 3500 inverter generator. It handles it is great is super quiet and very fuel efficient. I currently have one unit that has over 4500 hours on it and only had one issue. At around 3,800 hours the ignition module died but was easily replaced. Around 90 percent of the people traveling the areas that I do are also running the Predators. Dollar for dollar they are extremely hard to beat and have proven to be very reliable . I do have a couple of Onan RV gensets they are good but don't seem to hold up against the Predator even though Onan is a division of Cummins!
As you stated the Predator can be used in other applications and I think you will be very well pleased with that investment!
One thing to keep in mind when comparing against stated output is altitude, so derate by 3% for every 1000 ft above sea level. These are combustion engines, and around where I live generators can only generate about 85% of their nameplated capacity. Same goes for cars and anything else with a combustion engine. Great video by the way, and thanks for posting!
Good point. Pretty sure the Kohler has an altitude switch at least the ones I have seen do. Doubt the Predator does and the California compliant carburetor would prevent adjustment of the needles.
Thanks for that information.
Quite likely the debacle about the 8000 W had something to do with elevation.
Keep in mind that Some cars have turbochargers or even superchargers
Next video. Turbo charging a Predator generator.
Yup. It’s stated as 4% per 1000ft in the kohler manual. The predators are just wildly overrated. They are using a 10hp single which in my experience will never make 10000 watts. All the commercial 10k gensets I work on use at least a twin.
If you buy products with your own money then give an honest review of them, it’s more like Consumer Reports provided online for free. Nice job Riley!
It's called filler content
Yep. Just ditch that stupid gubbamint gas can.
Your ladder setup at 16:40 gave me flashbacks! I'm a now retired career firefighter and had a ladder accident. I was up at the 2nd floor and the ladder slipped on the asphalt driveway. I ride the ladder down and my left knee went between the rings and hit the asphalt first. It shattered my patella into 7 or 8 pieces . I had multiple operations and was out of work for an entire year. BE CAREFUL!
Thank you for your service sir.
@@catgynt9148 best job I ever had. You'd go home at the end of shift knowing you helped somebody. Whether it be a house fire, car accident, medical call, or just helping a homeowner pump out their basement after a flood or broken pipe.
*- Yes, agreed.*
*- As a carpenter's union steward, you can imagine my response. All the construction guys I know would see that as way too stupid to risk their future on.*
Same thing and broke my heel into 3 pieces! I hate ladders!
@@criticalevent a lot was my own fault for breaking the rule of always having someone "footing" the ladder preventing it from kicking out like that. Still kick myself for being too impatient to get someone to foot the ladder.
THD = Total Harmonic Distortion (clean power rating)
Kohler is rated for THD < 5%
Predator 13000 has THD < 23%
Appliances are required to support THD < 5%
With the Kohler, it can feed power direct to home and home appliances will be happy.
With Predator and direct feed, some appliances (like curling iron) may not work.
If you can set Victron's so generator charges batteries and inverters power home, then it will be good.
Battery chargers don't mind noisy power.
Thanks for interesting video.
Is this also the answer to why certain loads would trip the protections in the F-150 Lightning because it hated 2 appliances in the house.
I was actually surprised the Lightning took power from the generator without tripping a protection.
"curling iron" : I highly doubt that there would be a problem with a curling iron on a high THD generator. They are basically just a resistive heating element with no microprocessor control. Appliances with microprocessor controls, such as a Fridge, Washing Machine, heating system, etc, will be the ones that have issues with 'dirty' power.
If it's just setup to charge the solar batteries, it won't have any effect on household appliances.
Failing to read comments prior to posting my comment above, you have somewhat answered part of my discussion here. I will be looking at THD in the future. Thank you!!
Great evaluation! I spent about 35 years in the generator industry. In the end, what's best really depends on what you need it for. If I were going off grid, I'd probably buy a couple identical small diesel surplus gensets. There are several reasons why. While the up-front equipment cost is an important factor initially, the cost of making your own power over time should be a big consideration. A small 1800RPM diesel will beat any gasoline or Lp genset that runs at 3600 rpm, as the ones you tested do. The diesel wins on fuel consumption and durability and over a five- or ten-year period that will be significant. If you got 2000 hours out of either of those two gensets tested I'd be shocked. You can get 10,000 to 13,000 hours out of a diesel with a little Kubota on it. While the LP engines do very well wear wise, the 3600 rpm is what kills them. And, the general design is just not as robust as the diesel surplus gensets. Duty cycle is also very important. As you saw, what they claim and what they can actually do is two different things. If I had either of those gensets, I wouldn't base load them any more than 50% of the nameplate rating or they will come apart. If I were looking for a small diesel, my engine choices would be Kubota 1st, Yanmar second and Lister 3rd. I'd probably steer clear of any others. But, I guess if you don't mind the aggravation associated with correcting failures, you could buy 6 predators and deal with the failures as they happen and keep the good parts to repair the rest till they are all done. One other problem with all these Chinese built products is they constantly change things, so unless you bought 6 at the same time ( say, in the same year), they likely won't be identical. In the end, math will dictate the best value based on life cycle cost and fuel efficiency.
Well said!!
@mikeconroy2651 ... I agree, RPM's are a real killer and the only thing I would suggest is to go "Water-Cooled" Diesel based on my experience. I'm an Ex-Pat living in the Philippines and we have semi-regular so called brown-outs. They vary from 1 minute to several hours... and when we had the Cat 5 Typhoon it was 3 weeks before power was even starting to be restored. It was ugly, and it took 2 months to get reliable power service back. Our homemade 10kw water-cooled diesel got us through running about 15 hours straight per day. Then we used a 1000 watt Honda quiet type gas generator at night for lights and fans at night. We charged lights and cell phones for the locals charging a few peso's that helped to offset the fuel cost which was about 1 liter or so of diesel per hour. A country boy will survive.
@@Kevinrichardsonministries19:39
@@Kevinrichardsonministries I'd take an air cooled over a water cooled, if my location allowed it. Just so much less to fail. But I doubt the P.I. is conducive to air cooled, being such a hot ambient. I've seen air cooled used in some very cold applications.
@@mikeconroy2651 ... That's a valid point Mike, as agreed... if there's a freezing risk in the location the unit is being used... one would definitely have to keep an eye on possible damage from same on a water-cooled unit. Either way... I would think keeping the RPM's at a minimum to reduce wear and tear over time would be important on either type of unit. Good Feedback Brother...
Wonderful comparison, I am impressed, HOWEVER, being a US Navy Nuclear Submarine Veteran electronics tech, I would have kept the Diesel Generator and put a remote start module on it. So much more robust and longevity would be at hand. In addition you guys are heavy users of diesel fuel which you keep on hand. 73's KV4WM, Dennis
Hey shipmate, I too am an ET (nuc) sub veteran and I sold them the old MEP 804. I rewired it from 3 phase to two so it produced full 15kw at 240 volts. The big thing I noticed was the fuel usage as well as longevity. My MEP 802 used .5 gal/hr while his uses 2 gal/hr and my mep actually puts out 6.5 kw continuous for approx 20k hours overhaul cycle. I would have kept the old reliable also. ETCM(SS) Ret John
Than you for your service sir! While I agree with the idea of using the Diesel and I know Riley is fully capable of making it work, I think its worth pointing out for those that don’t realize, automating the Diesel would be much more complex and expensive project because it isn’t self regulating. So in addition to run and start you also have to worry about closing the breaker, voltage and engine RPM control. Again I’m sure you know that and Riley is capable, it’s just more time and $$.
That old 804 certainly couldn't be automated, but the newer 802/3/4/5 are capable of automation and a you tuber made an app and hardware to do so, check it out. Snook, Florida. Nevada, Ohio, Michigan. KG7VBM
Any info on a remote start for a diesel gen?
kurt klopp on youtube
That remote start modification is what I am here for! Very cool Mr. Cool!
As a broadcast engineer, I inherited a portable backup generator at a remote mountain top transmitter site that had been modified exactly like this. It received the start command from the automatic transfer switch. It worked every time I tested it on site with a simulated failure (pulled the breaker). But inevitably, every time we had an actual power failure, it wouldn't start. We scrapped it and bought a Kohler!
Completely agree with @brianbeuning9279's comment regarding THD below. If you are running lights and sump pumps dirty power shouldn't cause any issues. But, with today's modern appliances, HVAC, TV's, Computers, Cell Phones, etc. dirty power is a show stopper. A very large percentage of the non-inverter Harbor Freight type generators (DuroMax, Champion, Generac to name a few) all have between 12 and 23% THD. Some of the larger Westinghouse open frame generators (WGEN 11500 TFC) have THD below 6% which is considered clean power. Inverter generators provide pure sine wave power, so less than 2% THD, but they are exensive! This is actually cleaner than power from your power company in most cases, they provide 5% or less THD. So, when shopping for a portable home backup generator, the first items on your check list should be continuous wattage output and THD. Your pocket book and sensitive electronics will thank you 🙂 Great video by the way!!!!!
I have a Onan P4500i that I have been running for a couple years now. It has just crosses 10,000 hours. It is a small beast and has given me no issues. Very happy.
That's a LOT of hours! Cool!
@@AmbitionStrikesThe champion whole house generators come with a 10 year , 10,000 hour warranty.
Yeah the real important measurement is how many hours the generator will last.
What fuel are you running on it?
I have a Cat 11kw 3 cylinder diesel cost $16000(nz about $10,000US) oil pump shaft snapped at 930 hrs
First: Riley, you are amazing! I have met other geniuses in my >70 years on earth, but you are one of the best communicators among them. Your insatiable curiosity is contagious.
Secondly, I would add one more test to them both: how RF "clean" are they. I would ask one of my ham radio buddies to measure the sine wave, spurious RF and then run them through a "whole house" surge protector & a UPS as a buffer for computer / "smart" stuff.
Thank you, all 5, for lifting my spirits! (Rain in LA Mesa, CA, now.) Blessings. 🙏🤲🙌📖😀
Wow! That is an amazing compliment. Thanks! And thanks for supporting me in getting to do the things that I love to do!
I actually bough an oscilloscope to check the sin waves, but of course it didn't arrive in a timely manner. I suspect the Kohler would be a lot "cleaner".
I have to agree with Donald!
I have multiple vids on of how to very cheaply view sine wave on generators etc
Happy Birthday Oliver and Happy Easter to all!
Riley/Courtney - thanks for the video - good observations! My wife Karen and I are living a similar off-grid life here in Michigan with solar, generators, etc. We have two portable Predator 3500s, one portable Generac 5K, one Champion 10K, and recently added a Kohler 20K. My first year of use on the Champion as our primary generator put 400 hours on the machine. About that time, the generator's governor stopped being reliable and I had problems maintaining stable Hertz under load. Since it was under warranty, Champion worked on it and its working pretty well again (but I'm not sure I trust it in the dead of winter). The other factor that caused me to upgrade to the Kohler was the capacity. The Champion exhibits the same problems you noticed with your Predator which was an inability to deliver its full rated output. Using propane, my Champion declares a rating of 7200 continuous but I never was able to get more than 4.5K without RPMs dragging under load (causing hz to drop, causing the inverter/charger to disconnect). Also, household appliances (microwave, stove, toaster) were not fond of the 'dirty' power from the Champion. With the new Kohler I can run full household loads and charge the battery bank at my inverter's max (48vdc/110amps). (I'm running at Schneider 6848 XWPro Hybrid Inverter). I paid $5200 for all my Kohler package from a local dealer and self-installed. My vote is for your Kohler over your Predator in the long haul -- but I do understand your appreciation for the dual fuel option, the portability, and the lower cost. It's very cool you set your Predator up for Autostart capability from your Victron gear! Nice. -Cheers from Paul and Karen Green (youtube.com/@BuildingAtTheWoods)
One more thing... we tried using an EG4 Chargeverter as a way to feed power from the
'dirty' Champion generator into our DC bus to charge our batteries. We found that to be a good way to clean up the power as the EG4 Chargeverter accepts 240 or 120vac power sources and tolerates 'dirty' power. Have the Chargeverter lets us use any of our generators to feed the batteries, even our small Predators. (You can't have too many backup options when you're depending on yourself to generate all your power needs).
Might add a stake in the ground and chain the Predator to keep vibrations from dropping it off that hill. I've never had to run one for house backup though, only worksite applications. Great video! I really like the expensive vs cheap/diy solutions for similar things.
Been working in small engines a long time. I work on a lot of Kohlers with 5000 hours plus, never seen a Chinese generator come close to those hours.
Agreed, but a lot of that is just that we don't buy Chinese products because we like them for any reason other than price. SO they always get us the cheapest which is why they are not great. China DOES make good stuff too, just not when they are made to be cheap. I have a Honda, for 10 years, and it ALWAYS starts. I'm off grid, use it often when rain for a few days or am working in the shop on rainy days. Starts ALWAYS.
i live in california, and hondas are being replaced by predators everywere....
You sure? All gas generator are banned in CA you have to go across State line to buy it.
@@aplaceholderbplaceholder9524 that’s not accurate. Honda pulled out of the market over the last 2 years. But gas generators are not banned until 2028. You can still buy them inside the state.
I’ll never reach 5000 hours with a predator 212 but for 1/4 the price of a gx 196 I’m fine with that. Plenty of people have reached into 2000 hrs with predators. I think for the price they are fantastic engines. If I had a commercial fleet of equipment I would run Honda no questions asked but if I need a motor that doesn’t break the bank harbor freight all day.
Something to consider is a Whisper Watt, I have been on quite a few jobsites with them. They are trailer mounted, run on diesel fuel, and you can stand beside them and carry on a conversation.
I am amazed at the knowledge you possess. I enjoy your families humor and the devotion you and your family possess. The content of your videos are very interesting and I hope you Courtney Oliver and dogs continue to give us the joy of your video’s
We have a world of info available...he doesn't just pull it out of his head without researchi and learning
I bought the first 13,000 watt Predator generator from my local harbor freight store. I have about 900 hours on it. Zero problems. I love mine. I run mine easily on a 40# bottle which is stated as the minimum in the generator manual.
right, because the usage is too high and a smaller tank will ice up and lose pressure fast, resulting in not enough gas to run it anymore. also in very cold weather you'll want a far larger tank to combat the icing up conditions and maintain enough gas output. in reality you'd want #250lbs or greater tank(rated in gallons by then)
Before I even watch, I'll put it this way. after Hurricane Sandy I helped a half dozen people buy and connect the Predator 9500 units to their houses. WAY cheaper than CNG powered whole house units with a K on them, that BROKE constantly. People can still hate on HF all they want, but a lot of their stuff is pretty damn good.
That's great to hear!
We bought a Cummins to replace our Kohler. Love it. Works and works and works!
I would think I would put my time and money into automating the military generator 1st. Its my opinion that the military / army genset would be the most dependable, best documented, the cleanest (sine wave), and the easiest to find parts. It may not be the most efficient, or portable but I think I would trust the US military surplus over Harbour Frieght any day of the week in your remote location. As for fuel, you got diesel on site.
That's a good point. Do you happen to know how diesel autostarts are managed in cold weather? Is the block heated all the time, or is ether used, or something else?
@@alskjflaksjdflakjdf Lots of good questions, but my experience with them was when I was much younger, and told to look, but dont touch!! I believe they have a MEP 804 (15KW) diesel..... Other models include MEP 802 @ 5KW, 803 @10 KW, 805 @ 20KW and I think 806 and 807 at 30 and 60kw??? (dont hold me to it) There are guys that are here on you tube that rebuild, resale, and convert them. ...... Try a search on "MEP 804" at see what pops up! Good Luck
From the videos I've seen, It seems they need to manually adjust the rpm of the generator to get 60Hz. Still, I'm sure it's possible to make a system that does that automatically.
@@henrikaleksandernilsen6388It depend on the model of MEP. The old ones were mechanically controlled. We just left them at 60.5 - 61.0 hertz unloaded, and adjusted as we needed to. Then came electronic governors, that did most all of that for us.
The predator is also not a 100% duty cycle generator. They are really only rated for about 4 to 6 hours of use and then should be shut down for an hour or two. They don't have much oil in them and that will really accelerate the engine wear if you try to run it 24 hours a day for multiple days. The oil probably needs changed after about 24 to 48 hours of use as well. I stand corrected the oil needs changed every 100 hours on these bigger models. Thats only 4 days of continuous use. Most people will not ever do that.
Not according to the specs
@@mrmotofy yep according to the specs it is rated for 50% load for 12 hours with gas. Which means 6 hours at 100% load. And the oils needs changed every 100 hours or about 4 days. The smaller units are even less. Most people think that these generators can just be run endlessly and they most certainly cannot.
Because of my limited funds, I’d go with the Predator.
I use a lot of Harbor Freight Products on my Little Ranch.
I bought one of their Jet pumps this last year and purchased the 2 year warranty.
I’ve also bought their air compressors in the past.
When they have failed, it’s a no hassle refund and I buy whatever I want to replace it.
It works for me at this time.
Great video.
We are not talented like you. This affects our choices. I have a 230 volt water pump that draws 9 amps with inrush of 27 amps, so a test wiuld be which unit could start up the pump while running around 1000 watts of other stuff.
Got a Predator replacement engine for my lawn mower. It lasted one cutting on my 1/3 acre yard before it started blowing blue smoke out the exhaust. I had gotten the warranty so on second motor did a proper break-in with straight 30w and zinc addative to oil. Did one cutting and dumped oil which was BLACK. Fresh oil and two more cuttings. Fresh oil and still going strong a year later.
@@patricktobin1388We have a two year warranty basically on anything here in Europe, so it's difficult to understand you can buy product and if it fails after 90 days you're left on your own. So for non-critical applications I don't hesitate to buy cheap. I bought a cheap brand, basically a dressed Chinese generator about 8 years ago and it still works fine, being used twice a day on my little ranch. I even have a new one from a good European brand, but it's sitting in a box, waiting for the old one to die...
I did my own cost analysis between a smaller inverter style HF generator gasoline and the Generac automatic standby natural gas generator. Basically between maintenance contract costs (which are usually required [although you could fight with them and likely win if you did the maint yourself] to keep your 10 year warranty), the higher initial costs and the fact that after 10 years you really can't get warranty on the Generac you could actually buy a NEW HF every year for 7 to 8 years and come out ahead - add in an extended warranty and (I'd never suggest doing this) you could "upgrade" every 23 months for "free". The lack of an automatic transfer switch and not having a natural gas option (until recently) kept me seriously considering an automatic standby generator even with all of the downsides - for me the tri-fuel option and ability to "remote" start brings me a lot closer to having the best of all worlds.
When using an ICE your pressure altitude will play a roll in the engine output and therefore your electrical output in a generator.
Very true! We are at 2,000’.
Theoretically 8% loss from altitude.
.and 10% on top of that for switching to LP....@@AmbitionStrikes
Another great video! It sounds like you’re speaking another language when you’re stating all the technical terms and I have no idea what it all means, but it never the less is very impressive to see your brilliance at work!!
Happy Birthday, Oliver!!
I picked up the Predator 9500 inverter generator for a home backup a little over a year ago and it has served us pretty well. I like the inverter style because it’s quieter and the power is cleaner. It would be awesome to set it up with a remote control setup like this. My only challenge is my breaker panel isn’t well balanced so my legs pull a very different amount of current when on generator mode, something to fix this summer.
So fun to see Riley so excited when things work!
Thanks for the video guys. Happy Easter!
For us I'd go with the Predator and a transfer switch. I just wish you had put this video out last year before I bought my current, underpowered portable generator. For you guys, since you've already bought the Kohler, the Predator will make a nice back-up gennie as well as being one you can take up to that cabin site when you need to work up there.
Those Kohler generators usually run forever off grid. Have several with 5-10 thousand hours, no joke. But they can need things like the occasional brushes, bearings, cylinder head repair, etc in that time and mechanics cost real money to do that work. But most of the time it just runs which is attractive for someone who just wants to live. Hydraulic valve adjustment also.
cool video. my wife and I moved to southern Georgia a year and a half ago. Last summer we had hurricane Idalia run right over us. we moved here from New Jersey. Back in Jersey i bought a predator 8750 generator a few years ago, we used it for various things back in Jersey. When the hurricane hit us in Georgia we lost power for 3 days. That generator was worth its weight in gold! When we got power back all i did was treat the generator to an oil change and a new plug. It still runs like a champ. I'm a big fan of the predator line!
I bought a dual fuel generator for the same reason of versatility of fuel. Also mine is stand by with me moving it into place. I have not put gas in and only run test on propane so the carb and gas fuel system won’t glow from non use. I know you can take out you start mod but Harbor Freight may not honor warranty. I would consider getting the extended warranty because some of their equipment fails after 90 days but still in first year. Also your running method will put more stress on predator unit. The other unit is built for these extended run times under heavy load. You don’t want your generator failing while you’re away.
Predator would be nice for the equipment shed/shop. Good for solar backup and still portable for other jobs.
Man it’s really fun to watch you be excited about these things that you clearly love figuring out and using your brain. What a blessing for y’all to get to do this stuff, and so awesome that you share it with all of us.
The coffee shop trailer by me has been using a predator inverter generator 6 days a week for 3 years without issue. For the cost they are really hard to beat. Of course I have heard stories where they were DOA too. Lol
That’s Funny I am on grid here in the Mountains of Montana. I own 4 Generators & 10,000 watts of Solar. I just purchased a Kohler 20 KW to be connected by the end of April. I’ve established it’s own separate 330 gal. Propane tank. So now 3 Propane tanks on the property.
Sounds like you are well set for anything!!!
Does your Kohler have a turbo to compensate for the 4% loss per 1000ft of altitude.....plus the 10% loss for LP on top of that?
Mind you
14%, (1000ft)
18%, (2000ft)
22% , (3000ft)
26% (4000ft)
30% (5000ft)
loss from rated output at sea level (20kw) (continuous or peak starting?)
still leaves plenty......????
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq That would be an honest 20 kW continuous at sea level, less of course as you mentioned when de rated. No turbo on a two cylinder gas burner. You have max output on LP. De-rate for natural gas approximately 10%.
I have said this before and will say it again. For your application, you really need to invest in a Direct Current (DC) Generator. Your AC based are simple, alternators and in the case of your suitcase sized inverter based. You lose power in the conversion by rectifying through your Inverter Rectifiers. You could be charging your batteries directly straight from a DC generator. Polar Power Marine is an example but not the only. These are often used in marine environments and off-grid telecommunications sites.
I was thinking the same thing, this seems like a great setup for a DC generator at the battery voltage. However I can also see why an AC genset has its advantages. If something happens with the inverters he can wire the house panels directly to the generator.
Thanks for this week's production, I always enjoy watching. Great comparison of the methods you have chosen to power your life in a remote location. A significant amount of Solar, several Generators using various fuel types have been seen over the years and each have their up and down sides. E-bikes, E-Golf Cart, and now the E-Truck. Life is a learning experience and I continue to learn by watching you and many others with my Solar powered cell phone. Thanks for everything you provide...
Another excellent video, well researched and tested! Thanks Riley, you always do a great job! You seem to understand electrical things and how to adjust and fix things. I get a kick out of little Oliver, he sure seems to watch everything you guys do!
Happy Birthday, Oliver! Happy Easter, Casey Family!
Something that’s very important to know is how “clean” is the power generated. Inverter type generators are very safe for electronics (like your very expensive Victron). While Kohler is not an inverter type, in does have a quality wound power head like most home backup generators(hardwired). Inexpensive non-inverter type generators usually have a horrible jagged sine wave. I highly recommend getting a “TABLET” oscilloscope + high voltage probe and have a look at it and many other things later on. That model is very easy to use, automatic, forgiving, inexpensive and the average handyman can learn most of its features in an hour or so. Once you check the output of the cheap generator and compare it to the victron, it won’t take an expert to surmise a verdict of YUCK 😮
They already have an EG4 Chargeverter. If they used it to charge their batteries directly, the sloppy A/C output of the Predator wouldn’t matter.
@@andysontag5336
Not sure how he’ll use it since he’s going to use the Victron “dry contacts” to start it, but yeah the chargeverter will be more likely to take it, but up to a point. Some of those outputs are so bad I refuse to call them a sine wave.
The victrons are specifically designed to work with non inverter generators, and have lots of controls to deal with low quality incoming power. They will be just fine on pretty much anything that can make juice, and will detect and protect themself in situations where the power is so bad it could damage something.
@@mutt2jeff
That may be true but you also have to factor if they feed through the inverter to the house as well, not just charging the batteries. Inverter type heat pumps and many appliances will not survive long on a bad sine wave. But they need to have a look at it with an inexpensive O scope to be sure before it’s condemned to chargeverter only.
As I understand it generators are Pure Sine so clean and fine
that was so slick with the timers/relays i love it
I only use mine for camping but when I camp it is a month at a time and I'm off grid the whole month. I also am using the 3500 and not one as big as yours. It is going on 6 years old and has run from sea level to just over 9000 feet. It has sat in both rain and full sun and to date never missed a lick. It is still stock with no mods and only receives scheduled maintenance.
Whew!!?? Way beyond my paygrade..I would need a tech.
My thoughts, too.😅
Then it's time to call an electrician.
Thanks for sharing. Big Hi to Oliver and Mom and Dad. The Gas s/b turned on/off if in standby for long periods. Propane may be the best option. Ron PTL USA
Should just keep running the engine about once a month with Stabil in the fuel to keep the carb from developing varnish! That should also work. with Propane. I don't think you would see the Carburetor varnishing up and making the float stick or plugging up the fuel passages in the carb...
This is so in depth real life review, I appreciate the work that goes into it. Thanks mate for the video!
I have an older school predator 9000, gasoline only. I use it for power outage that occurs at least once a year if not two or more. I bought it when we lost power during a bad storm when power was out for about a week. Paid off big. That unit ran all my appliances, central air or window units. I never empirically load tested by measuring frequency, but did monitor voltage under load. It was adequate, and fit for use. I'm prepping my site for solar with tracking, I will definitely back it up with this 13,000 watt unit with a propane back up. Outstanding presentation, and building an adhoc system of relays for remote start, very impressive.
We've had a backup generator for 18 years (5000w continuous). 30 amps x 220v hooked directly into the meter. We lose power 3 or 4 times a year, up to 8 hours at a time (the longest has been 22 hours). It sits outside under just a canvas cover (though now under an awning). It runs for 30 min every month, has a pull start, and has no frills.
In 18 years I have replaced the fuel valve ×2, had a general service once, a new muffler, and just routine maintenance. It has never failed to start, and it never stopped unexpectedly. 18 years ago, it cost $500. I've used it at fairs to power popcorn machines and fryers - no issues.
I can't power everything in the house at the same time, but I can make hot water (at night with almost all the power off) and use the stove top - but no a/c or central heat (have a fireplace for that).
$500 initial cost, $500 for the things mentioned above - it is a great option for grid tied backup power!
That's an excellent return - what make/brand and model is it? If they still make it, and have held to the quality standards, it may be of interest to some.
It's a Briggs & Stratton Elite Series 5500 (8500 starting). Ours was not made in China (that started after 2007), but I don't know about the new ones
Saw a similar 5500 elite, but only 6500 w startup. Runs about $900. Depending on the needs, I might go for the 11,000 w models. More fuel consumption, more output.
I have often wondered about the big Honda generators with the heavy insulation and mufflers on them. I have seen them at fairs and car boot sales, and they seem to run 12-14 hours a day, up to three days a week, I suppose that they are diesel running on red. I wonder how long they last? They are audible but not in a bad way.
OK. Gensets SHALL NOT be wired to a permanent source of power without a properly installed transfer switch.
Source: National Electrical Code.
@crankychris2 our electric provider installed a device between the meter and the main electrical panel. We know when the power is restored when we hear the generator return to idle. Cost about $300 - installed.
the kohler is a bigger unit, higher output. once youve added autostart, weather proof cabinet its closer to 1/3 vs 1/6 th the cost.
I accomplished something similar to my 2 story home in Texas. Whole home generator would’ve been $12-15k. My compromise was a similarly rated portable Firman generator and a transfer switch connected to my downstairs circuits that I need (2 fridges, lights, Wi-Fi, etc). Master bedroom is first floor also so I can essentially live downstairs during a long term outage and even run furnace/AC if needed. Auto standby like you showed wired to Predator would be convenient but isn’t necessary. This setup only cost me about $2300. This was a great comparison. Thanks for your content.
If you have a Kohler and it is installed in the open air in a snow belt area you MUST keep the side air vent open and free of snow for proper cooling. These engines are air cooled. If during what we call a nor'easter here in Ct and your power goes out you BETTER get out there and keep the vents open or it MAY over heat.
I think I would get two Predators. Hook up one permanent on propane and one portable on gasoline. You could use the portable one in other location if needed.
What elevation are you at. Elevation plus temperature effect both generators especially if you run propane.
We're at 2200ft of elevation so that could make us lose a little. However I would think the cold temps would off-set it. Very good points though!
Excellent video. Riley, since you have the ability and the platform to try things we only dream of, here is a future project. Find/build a small(sized for average energy use, and runs continuously Dec-Jan), low rpm(more durable), DC generator to charge the batteries directly(more efficient), and use the waste heat from the exhaust/cooling system to suplement heat for the house( combined heat and power).
Keep doing what you do.
i also watch Keeping it Dutch channel he is off grid
in just 1 summer went through 3 predators generators even got to the point Harbor freight won't honor warranty they replaced couple but eventually started to bock hemmm and haw
Dutch was relying of predators generator to provide
majority of elec needs ran several hours every day he performed regular maintenance and oil changes per manual instructions
Go with the cheapest that your batteries will charge on.
Aside from reliability, the main differences are likely to be the quality of the power coming out of the generator, which hardly matters as all you want to do is use it to charge your batteries.
How does that electric truck do in that climate ? Battery output in that cold? Surprised you have that up there. Just curious honest question.
I use a Predator generator (6500) for my off grid home. I do not have batteries or solar. We have used generators for the past 7 years. In winter I only run it 8-12 hours a day. In Summer it runs 14-16 hours a day. It IS difficult finding someone to work on it. There is another channel, James Condon, that gives great information on repairs, including torque specs and ohm readings. Good luck!!
For years I've been using a Miller Trailblazer (welder/generator) for backup. It's a very manual system, so whenever the power goes out, I get a bit jealous of our neighbor's automatic backup system. But as I only need it about once every two years, I don't yet feel the need to automate. I use it as a welder many times a year.
You could buy 3 Predators, modify them all for remote start, hook one up to your solar/battery array permanently, hook one up in a similar fashion to your workshop, and keep one spare for mobility as and when you need it.
And you'd still have enough money left over to fuel them for months.
if you heard, the Predator has absolutely no service options. If you need service because you are no mechanic, you get lost. Valve clearances? I would buy an inverter generator wich has a clean energy rate
Until one stops with a crunch, as they are known to do. You do get what you pay for.
@@markmitchell457 Keep the valves adjusted (EASY to do). Change the oil, oil filter, and air filter and it shouldn't be a problem... It should last quite a while. I have seen tests and reviews of the predator engines, and they seem pretty well built. Like any other engine, you just need to take care of them.
One of the problems I used to encounter as a Repairman with the Cheaper Chinese Generators is the fact that they use Aluminum instead of Copper in the field windings which melts into at connection points under full load whenever a connection loosens up a little bit. I also got quite a few for repair due to the voltage regulator module failing which is sometimes difficult to obtain for replacement.
Great video. Love the enthusiasm! I did similar to rig up 2 wire start. But not as complex as you!
Thanks for the test.. If nothing else, it shows me that power specs are NOT what they state (sort of like power amplifiers were in the '70's). I had thought that a 13KW genniie SHOULD be enough.. but your tested load was closer to HALF that?! And I didn't even think about longevity of the gennie itself..
I think the cost of the Kohler, Generac, GE, and Westinghouse is too stratospheric for my broke budget. Some people are paying up to $12K for a backup power solution.. it just makes no sense.
I have been surprised you have spent so many episodes on power related issues.. when it looks to me like you realistically solved that a year ago.. I guess I don't understand the concern.. really.. Run your apartment off the Lightning??
Actually, the Mr Cool thang was far more interesting.. given the severity of your climate. I guess HVAC really has improved immensely. Can't wait to see the episode where you put in a better garage door, make a new cabin up on the hill, and where you get through the struggle of getting that D8 out of the mud (I know, NOT a high priority). Thanks as always for the prompt posting!!! 😀
Next step is to use the extra heat from the generator to warm up your house.
Or heat and defrost the heat pumps
Exactly! 💯
Hey Riley, i went with the Predator 9K back up for my home. Your remote start adds a whole different level.
YOU GUYS ROCK!❤❤❤
Riley, I would think twice before buying the generator you brought. I have seen others with the same generator and it has not lasted a year. Maybe some research should be done to start with, good luck with it in the future. David B.,Utah. 🐇🐇🐿🐿❤❤❤.
Buy 2 Predators and wire them in fail-detect switchover mode. Still way cheaper and online backup for your backup!
I want to know more about those timer relays.
Here's a link! amzn.to/3TXAjCj
I might be able to help if you have a more specific question(s), but if you get in too deep a comment sections isn't the place to start learning about ladder logic (relay) control design. The type he has is din rail mounted, used with a wide variety of options for industrial controls, which tend to be expensive (what's $200 to a manufacturing plant?).
The more affordable types are usually socked mounted, fitting into the same or similar socket as ice cube relays. You can get UL listed to meet US code, or can buy an unrated equivalent Chinese model which works the same but has no UL or other code approval.
There's lots of operation options, below is a common generic description for the 2 most common types.
For most applications, a "delay on" relay is sufficient. There is usually a dial or switches on the top to set the time delay. When the coil is activated (power to the relay input), there is a time delay before a normally open contact closes, whereas with a typical relay the contact closes instantly. When the coil is deactivated, the contact opens instantly like a typical relay.
The other common type is "delay off" which are more expensive and consume more power. When the coil is activated, the contact closes like with a typical relay. When the coil is deactivated, the contact remains closed until the timer expires, then the contact opens. This requires an additional power connection to hold the contact closed until the timer expires.
He probably could have used a typical DPDT (double pole double throw) relay across the switch instead of hacking his remote. On the generator I plan to use, there are other connections on the switch, but thy are just used for light indicators.
He probably could have used 2 delay on and 1 normal relay which could have saved him a decent amount of money.
From these, you can build some complicated controls. For example, in my planned setup:
1. Monitor PUCo (public utilities power) to activate when the power goes out.
2. Delay before trying to start because I don't want to start for a few second power outage.
3. Simulate depressing the switch twice (how mine starts). The generator will try to start on its own 3 times.
4a. If there is power at the generator output for a period of time, it is considered running, go to step 10.
4b. If there is no power after a timeout, repeat 3 again.
5. Repeat step 4b 5 times or so, after which quit trying to start. If it doesn't start in 15 tries, it isn't likely to start, to continue trying would just run down the battery and wear out the starter motor.
6. After starting, wait a period of time for the motor to warm up.
7. After motor warms up, activate a larger 50+amp contacts relay to send power from the generator to the automatic transfer switch, and begin running of the generator.
8. When PUCo comes back on, if not running, quit trying to start.
9. If the generator is running, wait a timeout to ensure the PUCo power didn't return for just a couple of seconds.
10. The automatic transfer switch will not be pulling power from the generator now because it would have switched back to PUCo power at step 8. Continue to allow the generator to run for a timeout period to cool down.
11. Simulate depressing the switch once (how my model is turned off).
12. Monitor the generator output power, if the generator fails to stop after a timeout, repeat 12 indefinitely until the generator stops.
I will be pulling gasoline from larger transfer tanks. If I can't use gravity feed by code, will need to add a small fuel pump to start before depressing the switch in step 4, stop when I call for the generator to stop in step 12.
This requires:
6 delay on relays
3 normal relay
1 normal 50+ amp contact relay (to turn generator power on and off to transfer switch).
trickle charger for generator battery
4 pin wire harness so I can disconnect from the generator (relay to simulate pushing the button mounted on the generator, tapping into the generator battery for part of the control circuit).
Relays are 12Vdc and 120Vac.
Automatic transfer switch fed by generator and PUCo distribution panel.
PUCo distribution panel.
Generator distribution panel fed by automatic transfer switch.
Power is from 4 sources: generator battery for controls, backup generator distribution panel (after automatic transfer switch), directly from the generator output, and PUCo (signal to tell if PUCo power is on or off).
In a few places I will have 2 power sources entering the same control cabinet, I haven't looked up the best way to handle by code (I think sign on panel door and segregation in a 1 or 2 gang box will work).
I might need to add a 2nd generator battery in parallel if the relays drain the battery too quickly, which would also need some type of mounting bracket.
The above doesn't include some status indicators:
battery level indicator with low battery alarm (can buy pre-made units)
fuel level indicator with low fuel alarm (I'm converting level to 4-20mA signal and using pre-made units)
generator running (relay on gen output before generator distribution panel)
generator fail to stop (relay on gen output before generator distribution panel)
@@1SCmeWow, that is very helpful, thanks a million for taking time to post!
Thank you for the detailed testing!
Great stuff, I’d lean into the Kohler vs the Harbor freight 1/6 the cost unit. The maintenance, the valve adjustment requirement, is an indicator of the total design. Keep it up guys!
You're obviously at high altitude, the predator came with a high altitude carb kit, to change out the jet j the carburetor. Did you do that? Seems like you did not, and that probably is the explanation!
Love it! All the effort into making something automatic without intervention. How about just draining pipe, turning off water pump and letting everything go cold? That’s the way off grid works in the old days.
Growing up, I remember the days of having to deal with filling up a generator with gas cans, I don't miss those days at all, now I have a 22KW Generac that runs on natural gas
You can use coil tubing around the exhaust system if an on either generator, and then pump it over to your home or garage for heat
Your empirical analysis of the two generators failed to addressee maintainability and above al, reliability.
HF generators are just as good as any other. They are made in the same factory as the expensive models.
Any evidence?
Wow, excellent data, very thorough test!
I've been in the generator industry for 15 years now. My first couple years was servicing and repairing those Kohler generators. Good generators for sure but not without issues. For dependability I would go with a diesel generator. The old military gens are great. I was hoping to find a used small Kohler with a John Deere around 30-40kw. I ended up with a older Cummins generator but with Kohler built controller and voltage regulator. It's a 100kw gen powered by a 12v Cummins engine. I basically got it for the cost of the brand new battery that it came with. I had serviced the unit for the last 7 years with my work.
It is the classic challenge: either the optimally engineered product or the cheaper, less engineered solution. As a geek who loves sound engineering, I would always get it wrong, but the Predator seems the best option on paper. Reliability could be further mitigated by having a second Preditor backup generator, cheaper than the alternative brand.
Or a third one as another backup. Lol
Poor comparison as no mention is made of the two other major Generator manufacturers Cummins/Onan and Caterpillar who both manufacture units form small household to multi megawatt units.
There was a TH-cam here in Oklahoma that does the off grid and he used the same generator that you bought (predator) he replaced it multiple times and Harbor Frieght stopped letting him trade it in. Now he did use it for long periods of time.
So is this channel just weekly infomercials now?
Are you forced to watch?
@@DonnieDarko727 are you forced to comment Donnie dorko?
@@ronhicks8271 evading the question. You lose
@@DonnieDarko727 ... Don't be a troll
I mean partly, but it was pretty informative as well.. I think it was a happy medium
Riley, I say again. You are a Mad Genius! I would buy the Predator Generator.
Your excitement is contagious. ✌️
Went from
Ambition strikes
To
Infomercial
😐
Yea, you lost me the moment you opened up the Predator! I doubt the Predator will last. Every you tuber I watch that uses them a) because they are cheap to purchase b) have a warranty c) Harbor Freight is great about returns d) readily available...but they don't last. The poor owners are always having their generators die and having to replace them over and over..granted heavy use though. Mine is a 4500 Predator, refused to start the last time I tried to start it. I didn't kick it though...just walked away :) I give longevity to the Kohler.
I let my predator set for over a year with little fuel in it. It wouldn't start. The fuel had dried up and plugged the system. It took a while but I was able to get it cleaned up.
Lesson learned. DON'T LET TODAY'S FUEL GET OLD IN YOUR EQUIPMENT. The alcohol is not your friend.
When you already have a solarsystem with a battery, I think you can get away with a smaller generator and just run it a bit longer. The money you save can go to yet some more batteries. But when offgrid that auto/remote start is good to have, that is for sure.
Another option you can do for your switch instead of all of those relays is purchase a BroadLink RF mini or similar. It will record the signal sent by the remote and re-broadcast it. You can use something like if this than that to detect when your batteries at a certain point and trigger the BroadLink to start your generator 21:38
starting to look more like the QVC shopping channel
I think a lot of your viewers would rather see you undertaking a construction project. Infomercials can be interesting but only so many before people lose interest
Your electronics knowledge is amazing as you MacGyver these things to make it do what you want. Great video!
It's like you read my mind. I have a Westinghouse dual fuel generator that I use with my Sol-ark 12k setup, I have been trying to figure out how to easily 2 wire start it for months. Thank you for the solution!
Sorry to say you are becoming a commercial I would like more of what you used to do personal hard work at building things you sound and are acting as an infomercial
Great video... lots of great info.. Love your Off Grid setup.. its amazing.
Others mentioned the altitude causing a reduction in output.. But also you might try playing with the carb a bit.. They are often set a bit off from factory. You might get a bit more power out of it if it was tuned perfectly for your altitude.
You mentioned having an issue with your Kohler generator after just an hour. My mother had a Kohler backup generator installed at her house, and it's set to run for about 20 minutes a week on Saturdays. On the second Saturday it ran for about 5 minutes and shut off. She had my brother take a look at it and it showed low oil, despite having just been installed and filled by the Kohler techs. He started topping up the oil and it just poured out the bottom, so we called them for service and they came out and found a connecting rod hanging out the side of the block. I wonder if they had a supplier issue that caused a lot of failures and that's why there was a backorder for parts. It took about 6 weeks for her parts and another week for the shop to rebuild and test everything to make sure it would last more than an hour the second time they installed it, but since then it hasn't had a hiccup.
getting tired of Green Solar this and Green that and batterie Powered Snowblower and Toothbrush and burning Sh-t.Your engineering and Manufacturing was Entertaining.Think I am going to unsubscribe and only watch if I think its of Interested to me.
They are off grid. What do you expect?
If you don’t like the content then don’t watch it dude. No one is forcing you to watch.
@@tomdy69 What he said ...
What if they called it how you can live off grid from mostly sunshine.
Found the snowflake
Your the best, I love the way you put your ideas and knowledge together! Awesome job keep posting these interesting video's 🎉
the HF tri-fuel is (for me) a game changer - keep in mind that the extended warranty price is often greatly reduced (in price) if your an Inside Track club member - I bought my generator a few years ago and the extended warranty (2 years) was about $180 and if I signed up for their "club" they took off the price of the membership which at that time was $29 so the 2 year warranty was essentially $150....
i use the predator 9500 watt inverter generator and i love it. powers my 5th wheel rv and my parents camper at 30 amps EACH when we go boondocking, and it never even has a hiccup. keep oil and gas in them and they will run forever. and super quiet compared to other generators.
Have both a small and large Predator "quiet" generator (3500 and 9500W). The small 3500W generator has over 2000hrs on it (that was the last time the hour-meter worked) and has been an "outdoor" generator the entire time. I have changed the oil 3 times - and it was not even dirty! Ive gone through 4 other generators(5-7kW), with more oil changes and maintenance. My 9500 is super reliable and starts with no problem even though it also sits outside. Only have about 80 hrs on it, so it's barely broken in.