The Grind is dead! Long live the Grind! No matter where you fall on the spectrum, I hope you enjoyed the video! And seriously, let me know those games I asked about in the after-video. You know. For research. 🧡 To someday have a hand in forcing me to play them, consider joining up on Patreon: www.patreon.com/ArchivistShepard 💜My suffering for your amusement.
"How much should an experience cater to me when I am not the target audience?" This is such an important question that I feel like far to many people just never bother to ask themselves. The example with Dark Souls hits it right on the head, people have been trying to get an easier difficulty added for ages... but the entire premise of the game is the 'try, fail, try again, fail better' loop. In an age where we are drowning in options when it comes to entertainment, some people expect ALL of those options to be for them, and then criticize them for not being so. Having options to edit the difficulty experience is always good, but it's also not always on the developer to add them if the experience they want the game to provide is about that set difficult they envision, and I think people forget that sometimes. Fantastic work as always, Shepard.
It is absolutely a facet of media/narrative abundance that I don't think a lot of folks have tapped into, largely because of the magnetizing quality media predominately had (and still has): it must make money in order to sustain itself, and you make money by attracting readers/viewers/players. FromSoft absolutely started a trend in the system that I'm thrilled more people are playing around with, both in terms of the brutal cycle the First Ones put out AND making it more accessible (Another Crab's Treasure is the shining example of that). There's that gap between narrative and gameplay that I think factors into these games (and FromSoft's library especially): the pull of momentum in some games, and the core loop (like you said) of trying and failing in Dark Souls. The joy isn't necessarily in the story of it, but in earning your progress. And sometimes you get a little glimpse into the story, like a lil' cherry on top of your triumph sundae! I need to go back through The Beginner's Guide again, but there is so much merit, where we're expected to make a thing for a wide appeal, to instead curate it for a specific audience, or even just oneself, even (and especially) in a setup that traditionally doesn't reward that type of niche creation. So much to think about and consider! Glad you enjoyed it! 🧡
Options that are truly options never hurt anyone. As someone with sensory aversions and focus issues, I always respect the hell out of a game that does includes settings to mitigate certain gameplay elements or features that cause me more distress than the average player. Flashbang "dark modes" always spring to my mind first, any game with that included is *chef's kiss*. Even disabilities aside, sometimes life is just stressful in general and it's extremely comforting to be able to play a game with the ability to opt out of its most stress-inducing features. I'm not even unable or unwilling to play a game on the hardest difficulty or with QOL modifiers disabled much of the time. But maybe sometimes with a game, I just want to take a break from pain and hardship for just a little while.
I always appreciate your insight! Had never heard of Dark Mode Flashbangs; spent the last several days flashing zombies in the RE2/3/4 remakes, and in hindsight, I'm shocked I've never considered it before. That said, is it a matter of any game/many games being a point of comfort for us in those Break Times you mentioned, or leaning on certain games that we know provide that kind of comfort? Like, in a rough day I had a couple weeks back, I instinctively dragged myself into Dorfromantik because I know it will provide the feedback loop and comfort I needed, rather than the replay of Control I was in, despite knowing that I genuinely enjoyed Control. Although that still calls into question our ability to discover those certain games if we haven't already formed those connections with our existing libraries. That said, when you're talking about opting out of the stress-inducing elements, what else are you considering? I saw, very briefly, that there was an option in The Last Of Us Part II where if you just stay still while prone, you're functionally invisible; things like that? My smooth brain keeps looping back to arachnophobia modes, and I know that can't be all you're talking about. 💙
@@ArchivistShepard Sorry for the late reply! I think games can strive to be one or the other, comfort games or challenge games, without needing to be both, but a game that can manage to have options to provide both types of experiences with different modifiers can be really outstanding. A lot more "hardcore" games can be tweaked to allow for more casual experiences than most people give them credit for, I'd say. I think the modding community for a lot of these games has proven with enough tweaking you can make something that's "only fun because it's difficult" into an experience more accessible without it requiring a high mental load. I look at a game like Darkest Dungeon for an example of that concept, workshop mods can eliminate the more excrutiating aspects of the game to make an experience that's actually palatable for someone who doesn't tolerate the stress the game expects you to undergo particularly well, but still would like to participate in the atmosphere and gameplay loop DD has to offer. I don't think you can transform a casual or chill experience as easily into a challenging one, but then again, there exist "challenge runs" like the ones for Pokemon titles (called Nuzlockes in that community) that can turn an experience intended for all audiences into a much more cutthroat escapade. I don't want game makers to feel forced to make accessibility options for all gamers of all levels of ability, but I do want accessibility options to be at least considered, and especially moreso in the case where the options have notable improvements with minimal time/cost on the team, like the dark mode flashbangs I mentioned earlier. Being able to opt out of things like time limits, or being able to toggle on/off certain enemies or features are great options as well for letting me avoid things that cause me too great a level of stress. This options aren't taken by people like me to supersede challenges much of the time, they're often taken because I've already overcome the challenge, and would like to not have to deal with that same challenge again on a repeat playthrough. (Sorry if this answer wasn't particularly great or repeated back a lot of the points made in the video, I wanted to reply right away when it was fresh but I kept getting distracted and the original thought kind of fizzled out)
@@MatthewKingpin Righteous take! I've heard a lot about Nuzlockes and seen them fly through my feed a few times, but I'm far less involved in the modding scene across the board. Day's end, it seems like we're all for making games palatable to the widest range of people possible, but not necessarily at the expense of the designers' initial visions. Pokemon can still be an accessible/introductory RPG adventure geared towards Youth (and its generational fans, to some extent), and Darkest Dungeon can be made more accessible in vibe and atmosphere by toning down the mechanical rigor. I really do ride that weird position between loving things like House Rules and Difficulty Sliders, but also REALLY liking and wanting to defend elements of what FromSoft and the Souls-like genre has going for it. To your second point, I've seen a lot of arachnophobia-based setting pop up in recent times, which I absolutely appreciate; little changes that don't have a major pull on resources, like you said. It's a different line between mechanical equilibrium (ie, meeting the player's skills where they're at before starting the ramp up) and accessibility equilibrium (making sure that the player won't be physically dissuaded from playing, a la flashbang's bright lights or spiders' whole leggy schtick) that absolutely should be considered more and more and developers experiment and hear from their players! 👍
Some constructive criticism, I think you might need to find a better presentation of thumbnails and your titles. I almost didn’t watch because I thought it was a video about you grinding out rogue legacy! Glad I found this gem tho!!
@@NexusRedux Fair! I've been experimenting a lot with thumbnails throughout the channel's upload history; some hits and misses, for sure, but we'll be playing around with the triple-test function in future uploads to see if there's a Secret Sauce somewhere in there. 👍 Appreciate the insight all the same!
One thing I like about the hades series is that the games know what genre they are in When you play Hades 2 you are literally doing it to kill time. The gradual improvement over time by skill or upgrades is what the genre is, I like that a lot tho, I like my hobbies to take up time I disagree with you that the randomness is somehow more disrespectful than the set levels, nothing feels more like a waste of my time than memorising enemy movement and level layout
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, killing Time, you clever one, you. 😆 Never considered it like that; Early Access had me wrapped up in the vibes and dialogue, clearly. And make no mistake, I loved for my hobbies to take up my time, too. But my circumstances changed between RL1 and RL2, so here we are! I hope things stay stable enough for you that you can keep enjoying them this way, though! I think the level design is one of the most important parts for the set/random argument. Thinking of any mainline Mario game, its appeal is in its focus and its changes level-to-level. Each one, to me, is a set experience that I can specifically conquer, enjoy, and revisit as I want. Roguelikes, with their randomized nature, traditionally can't let me revisit a Good or Consistent Experience in that sense (barring the use of Seeding). And unlike Mario games, I'm constantly having to walk through a similar design in order to get to other areas (unless, in RL2, I invest in the teleporter locks or castle lockdowns, when that money could go towards the upgrades I so desperately need to survive a bit longer). I get to move from grasslands to deserts to snowy mountains in one, whereas I'm constantly dragging myself through a castle, or a dungeon, or a basement before making any headway to some variety. To me, memorizing enemy layouts doesn't feel like as much of a chore when it's one chunk in a game full of 100+ chunks. But, like I said, this is clearly not my genre of choice. Still, I'm glad that the overarching genre is appealing to its base AND making small steps to give outsiders (and angry old men like me) an in so the hurdles aren't as daunting!
Respectfully agree and disagree. I think as a storytelling method or a selective format, like Supergiant did with Hades (demonstrating that Zagreus is getting more powerful and attuned with his abilities, but also, not tying ALL stats to permanent enhancements), the permanent improvement system worked out okay. But when everything is tied to that permanent structure, and with no ways to adjust it (a la House Rules), the whole format gets a lot dicier and a lot more predatory on our time. As much as I haven't dipped into them, I do respect games like Spelunky for putting the emphasis more on understanding and player improvement, rather than drip-feed number increases in the background. Did you have other games in mind? Also, thanks for watching and commenting! 👍
Thank you, and glad to have you aboard! Near as I can tell, sub count's low because I don't upload Shorts and I talk about Feelings and other heavy topics more than I do scream at video games. 🙃 Or I'm just bad at reading analytics. It's gotta be one of those.
As a big fan of Roguelikes, even with the House Rules I was very disappointed on how Rogue Legacy 2 disrespected my time. Because the true ending is hidden behind 7 REPLAYS OF THE ENTIRE GAME. I understand it if it's meant to be bonus content, but when it's intrinsically tied to things you've been seeing and doing the entire time you played that first run, it doesn't feel like bonus content, it feels like the game has missing pieces that you have to go seek through an insane waste of time. The scar challenges that I had been doing in between runs, only a third of them available in the base playthrough. The NPC affection markers, some of them are completely blocked until you get that true ending. The story itself is missing it's ending, obviously, since that is the point of the true ending. Even lowering the difficulty of everything to the bare minimum, getting past those extra 6 runs I didn't need at all took 3 days of my allotted play time. I am not a highschooler anymore, and my rest time is short and valuable. Rogue Legacy was a big favorite of mine when I played it back in the day, but no matter how much of an improvement Rogue Legacy 2 is, I resent it.
Aight, you got me there. I fully gunned through a standard playthrough, saw the Enemy Parade, and did not pick RL2 up again until this project. I chalked up the story elements to a general "taking a backseat to gameplay" mentality, and not something that would be expanded on (or needed to be expanded on) through subsequent runs. That is a hell of an investment, and your resentment is valid. That said, I would hope that seven runs in a single game for the full experience is the outlier. Are there any games you've gone through, then gone through again with the promise of a new or shifted experience? My thoughts go to the Dead Space remake last year: the Marker Fragment scavenger hunt and subsequent adjustments in the ending chapters were absolutely worth it for me.
The Grind is dead! Long live the Grind! No matter where you fall on the spectrum, I hope you enjoyed the video! And seriously, let me know those games I asked about in the after-video. You know. For research. 🧡 To someday have a hand in forcing me to play them, consider joining up on Patreon: www.patreon.com/ArchivistShepard 💜My suffering for your amusement.
"How much should an experience cater to me when I am not the target audience?"
This is such an important question that I feel like far to many people just never bother to ask themselves. The example with Dark Souls hits it right on the head, people have been trying to get an easier difficulty added for ages... but the entire premise of the game is the 'try, fail, try again, fail better' loop. In an age where we are drowning in options when it comes to entertainment, some people expect ALL of those options to be for them, and then criticize them for not being so. Having options to edit the difficulty experience is always good, but it's also not always on the developer to add them if the experience they want the game to provide is about that set difficult they envision, and I think people forget that sometimes.
Fantastic work as always, Shepard.
It is absolutely a facet of media/narrative abundance that I don't think a lot of folks have tapped into, largely because of the magnetizing quality media predominately had (and still has): it must make money in order to sustain itself, and you make money by attracting readers/viewers/players. FromSoft absolutely started a trend in the system that I'm thrilled more people are playing around with, both in terms of the brutal cycle the First Ones put out AND making it more accessible (Another Crab's Treasure is the shining example of that). There's that gap between narrative and gameplay that I think factors into these games (and FromSoft's library especially): the pull of momentum in some games, and the core loop (like you said) of trying and failing in Dark Souls. The joy isn't necessarily in the story of it, but in earning your progress. And sometimes you get a little glimpse into the story, like a lil' cherry on top of your triumph sundae!
I need to go back through The Beginner's Guide again, but there is so much merit, where we're expected to make a thing for a wide appeal, to instead curate it for a specific audience, or even just oneself, even (and especially) in a setup that traditionally doesn't reward that type of niche creation. So much to think about and consider! Glad you enjoyed it! 🧡
Options that are truly options never hurt anyone. As someone with sensory aversions and focus issues, I always respect the hell out of a game that does includes settings to mitigate certain gameplay elements or features that cause me more distress than the average player. Flashbang "dark modes" always spring to my mind first, any game with that included is *chef's kiss*. Even disabilities aside, sometimes life is just stressful in general and it's extremely comforting to be able to play a game with the ability to opt out of its most stress-inducing features. I'm not even unable or unwilling to play a game on the hardest difficulty or with QOL modifiers disabled much of the time. But maybe sometimes with a game, I just want to take a break from pain and hardship for just a little while.
I always appreciate your insight! Had never heard of Dark Mode Flashbangs; spent the last several days flashing zombies in the RE2/3/4 remakes, and in hindsight, I'm shocked I've never considered it before.
That said, is it a matter of any game/many games being a point of comfort for us in those Break Times you mentioned, or leaning on certain games that we know provide that kind of comfort? Like, in a rough day I had a couple weeks back, I instinctively dragged myself into Dorfromantik because I know it will provide the feedback loop and comfort I needed, rather than the replay of Control I was in, despite knowing that I genuinely enjoyed Control. Although that still calls into question our ability to discover those certain games if we haven't already formed those connections with our existing libraries.
That said, when you're talking about opting out of the stress-inducing elements, what else are you considering? I saw, very briefly, that there was an option in The Last Of Us Part II where if you just stay still while prone, you're functionally invisible; things like that? My smooth brain keeps looping back to arachnophobia modes, and I know that can't be all you're talking about. 💙
@@ArchivistShepard Sorry for the late reply!
I think games can strive to be one or the other, comfort games or challenge games, without needing to be both, but a game that can manage to have options to provide both types of experiences with different modifiers can be really outstanding. A lot more "hardcore" games can be tweaked to allow for more casual experiences than most people give them credit for, I'd say. I think the modding community for a lot of these games has proven with enough tweaking you can make something that's "only fun because it's difficult" into an experience more accessible without it requiring a high mental load. I look at a game like Darkest Dungeon for an example of that concept, workshop mods can eliminate the more excrutiating aspects of the game to make an experience that's actually palatable for someone who doesn't tolerate the stress the game expects you to undergo particularly well, but still would like to participate in the atmosphere and gameplay loop DD has to offer. I don't think you can transform a casual or chill experience as easily into a challenging one, but then again, there exist "challenge runs" like the ones for Pokemon titles (called Nuzlockes in that community) that can turn an experience intended for all audiences into a much more cutthroat escapade.
I don't want game makers to feel forced to make accessibility options for all gamers of all levels of ability, but I do want accessibility options to be at least considered, and especially moreso in the case where the options have notable improvements with minimal time/cost on the team, like the dark mode flashbangs I mentioned earlier. Being able to opt out of things like time limits, or being able to toggle on/off certain enemies or features are great options as well for letting me avoid things that cause me too great a level of stress. This options aren't taken by people like me to supersede challenges much of the time, they're often taken because I've already overcome the challenge, and would like to not have to deal with that same challenge again on a repeat playthrough.
(Sorry if this answer wasn't particularly great or repeated back a lot of the points made in the video, I wanted to reply right away when it was fresh but I kept getting distracted and the original thought kind of fizzled out)
@@MatthewKingpin Righteous take! I've heard a lot about Nuzlockes and seen them fly through my feed a few times, but I'm far less involved in the modding scene across the board. Day's end, it seems like we're all for making games palatable to the widest range of people possible, but not necessarily at the expense of the designers' initial visions. Pokemon can still be an accessible/introductory RPG adventure geared towards Youth (and its generational fans, to some extent), and Darkest Dungeon can be made more accessible in vibe and atmosphere by toning down the mechanical rigor. I really do ride that weird position between loving things like House Rules and Difficulty Sliders, but also REALLY liking and wanting to defend elements of what FromSoft and the Souls-like genre has going for it.
To your second point, I've seen a lot of arachnophobia-based setting pop up in recent times, which I absolutely appreciate; little changes that don't have a major pull on resources, like you said. It's a different line between mechanical equilibrium (ie, meeting the player's skills where they're at before starting the ramp up) and accessibility equilibrium (making sure that the player won't be physically dissuaded from playing, a la flashbang's bright lights or spiders' whole leggy schtick) that absolutely should be considered more and more and developers experiment and hear from their players! 👍
Great vid! Keep them coming 🙌
Some constructive criticism, I think you might need to find a better presentation of thumbnails and your titles. I almost didn’t watch because I thought it was a video about you grinding out rogue legacy! Glad I found this gem tho!!
@@NexusRedux Fair! I've been experimenting a lot with thumbnails throughout the channel's upload history; some hits and misses, for sure, but we'll be playing around with the triple-test function in future uploads to see if there's a Secret Sauce somewhere in there. 👍
Appreciate the insight all the same!
Excellent video! You just got another subscriber!
🎉🎉🎉
One thing I like about the hades series is that the games know what genre they are in
When you play Hades 2 you are literally doing it to kill time. The gradual improvement over time by skill or upgrades is what the genre is, I like that a lot tho, I like my hobbies to take up time
I disagree with you that the randomness is somehow more disrespectful than the set levels, nothing feels more like a waste of my time than memorising enemy movement and level layout
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, killing Time, you clever one, you. 😆 Never considered it like that; Early Access had me wrapped up in the vibes and dialogue, clearly. And make no mistake, I loved for my hobbies to take up my time, too. But my circumstances changed between RL1 and RL2, so here we are! I hope things stay stable enough for you that you can keep enjoying them this way, though!
I think the level design is one of the most important parts for the set/random argument. Thinking of any mainline Mario game, its appeal is in its focus and its changes level-to-level. Each one, to me, is a set experience that I can specifically conquer, enjoy, and revisit as I want. Roguelikes, with their randomized nature, traditionally can't let me revisit a Good or Consistent Experience in that sense (barring the use of Seeding). And unlike Mario games, I'm constantly having to walk through a similar design in order to get to other areas (unless, in RL2, I invest in the teleporter locks or castle lockdowns, when that money could go towards the upgrades I so desperately need to survive a bit longer). I get to move from grasslands to deserts to snowy mountains in one, whereas I'm constantly dragging myself through a castle, or a dungeon, or a basement before making any headway to some variety. To me, memorizing enemy layouts doesn't feel like as much of a chore when it's one chunk in a game full of 100+ chunks.
But, like I said, this is clearly not my genre of choice. Still, I'm glad that the overarching genre is appealing to its base AND making small steps to give outsiders (and angry old men like me) an in so the hurdles aren't as daunting!
Rogue Legacy and its consequence of popularizing the concept of grinding for permanent stat bonuses have been disastrous for the roguelike genre.
Respectfully agree and disagree. I think as a storytelling method or a selective format, like Supergiant did with Hades (demonstrating that Zagreus is getting more powerful and attuned with his abilities, but also, not tying ALL stats to permanent enhancements), the permanent improvement system worked out okay. But when everything is tied to that permanent structure, and with no ways to adjust it (a la House Rules), the whole format gets a lot dicier and a lot more predatory on our time. As much as I haven't dipped into them, I do respect games like Spelunky for putting the emphasis more on understanding and player improvement, rather than drip-feed number increases in the background.
Did you have other games in mind? Also, thanks for watching and commenting! 👍
Very good video ! Why do you only have 651 subs O_O
Thank you, and glad to have you aboard! Near as I can tell, sub count's low because I don't upload Shorts and I talk about Feelings and other heavy topics more than I do scream at video games. 🙃 Or I'm just bad at reading analytics. It's gotta be one of those.
As a big fan of Roguelikes, even with the House Rules I was very disappointed on how Rogue Legacy 2 disrespected my time. Because the true ending is hidden behind 7 REPLAYS OF THE ENTIRE GAME.
I understand it if it's meant to be bonus content, but when it's intrinsically tied to things you've been seeing and doing the entire time you played that first run, it doesn't feel like bonus content, it feels like the game has missing pieces that you have to go seek through an insane waste of time. The scar challenges that I had been doing in between runs, only a third of them available in the base playthrough. The NPC affection markers, some of them are completely blocked until you get that true ending. The story itself is missing it's ending, obviously, since that is the point of the true ending.
Even lowering the difficulty of everything to the bare minimum, getting past those extra 6 runs I didn't need at all took 3 days of my allotted play time. I am not a highschooler anymore, and my rest time is short and valuable. Rogue Legacy was a big favorite of mine when I played it back in the day, but no matter how much of an improvement Rogue Legacy 2 is, I resent it.
Aight, you got me there. I fully gunned through a standard playthrough, saw the Enemy Parade, and did not pick RL2 up again until this project. I chalked up the story elements to a general "taking a backseat to gameplay" mentality, and not something that would be expanded on (or needed to be expanded on) through subsequent runs. That is a hell of an investment, and your resentment is valid. That said, I would hope that seven runs in a single game for the full experience is the outlier. Are there any games you've gone through, then gone through again with the promise of a new or shifted experience? My thoughts go to the Dead Space remake last year: the Marker Fragment scavenger hunt and subsequent adjustments in the ending chapters were absolutely worth it for me.
Nerd