We Should Not Be Reluctant to Assert the Superiority of Western Values
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2013
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Filmed at the Royal Geographical society on 9th October 2007.
For the motion: Douglas Murray, David Aaronovitch, Ibn Warraq
Against the motion: Tariq Ramadan, William Dalrymple, Charles Glass
Chair: Edward Lucas
Every time Tariq Ramadan has a chance, like here, to have a dialogue, he spends the whole time saying how we need to have a dialogue. Every fucking time.
K Russell Very true indeed. It is also tiresome how he keeps repeating himself in any debate given how 'some muslims back in time' inspired others regarding either their values or views on things.
It's not as if we completly disregard the good that muslims (not the islam, of course) has done for us in the past. Whether it be to translate the greeks to inspire thinkers in Europe.
jodawgsup
Absolutely. This historical cherry picking only serves to highlight how backward Islam is today. I've heard him hold prayers calling for the destruction of those countries to be swallowed up by the ISIS caliphate - he's a very nasty piece of work.
K Russell Lolol. Quite right. As much as Prof. Ramadan bothers me, I do rather like his sort of goofy Swiss-French accent. And have you noticed how he says, "We need to come with (cahm wiss) a dialoooogue that is [blah blah blah]". The "come with" phrase is what always-for whatever reason-cracks me up.
Bart Something Bang on mate - Also the 'whattaboutery' - the appeal to historical Christian atrocities - because they always assume you're a Christian, and the finger-pointing to colonialism - like every shitty ideology should get it's turn at tyranny.
Ramadan does this thing where he suggests we need to come into the conversation with humility, as if arrogance is our default position.
A real slimeball.
Bart Smit I don't know, but they kicked him out of his post at Erasmus university in the Netherlands over his connections to Iranians state-funded television channel - whilst he was on holiday. So, top 'lolz' there.
Only in the west could you actually have this debate in a public forum..and that is all you need to know.
Is that to say free speech is the foundational value of the west?
Not "the" but one of the main ones yes. example, write something nasty about the government in chinese press (well you can't...on the web for example), as a chinese, and see what happens..In the west that´s just another day in the office. Hasn't been like that for that long here, but its a fundamental value of the modern west
So it's impossible to have this talk in any country that doesn't allow free speech, even if this topic wasn't considered taboo?
tobo86 I guess you have to show me a culturally self critical debate in a public forum in a country without free speech. Doesn't count if at least 1 participant has been fired, jailed or killed afterwards..
Fair. I don't know of any off-hand, but that would be the litmus test.
West must defend itself while it had the chance
Douglas is visionary
I have to wonder if you used "had" the past tense version of has intentionally
@@sammiller2637 It already is half way out of control
Communism and Nazism are also originated from the west. It's gross to condescend people like the pitch of a snake oil salesman. Yak! Money talks.
FYI, IQ2 square pants, Jesus Christ is from Middle East, not the West.
Nobody attacked the west, the oh-cult occident, neither the hindus, nor the incas, nor the africans, nor the 'barbaric' berbers of the barbary coast, nor any of the peoples of cross-culture.
It is the evil empire, as exemplified by the holy roman empire, destroying and distorting all before it, that which morphed into the evil 'masters' of today.
It rules with force, lies and mental witchcraft.
Civil-lies-ation is a lie.
@@there-sis-stanceiscoming8230 It's hilarious ho nobody ever questions the assumptions thrown around. Western culture has done some terrible things. These people are judging themselves based on the value system they created.
I liked the "cosmic brothel". Good expression.
Haha
Virgins and booz
That made me laugh too! Thank you for reminding me of it as I intend to us it in the future. 😉
Heaven...as imagined by illiterate 7th Century nomads and shepherds...
Tariq's being banned from America for donating to a Islamist organization is not a suspension of his freedom of expression. That is reserved for citizens of the United States. He is banned because he is associated with groups that America, rightly or wrongly, sees as dangerous to its survival. This is worlds away from repressing the free expression of one of its citizens. It's sophistry to assert otherwise.
Tariq spends alot of time talking.....without saying anything!
Charles Glass a obscurist mealy-sarcastic uninformed toady to the fanatics of Islam!
Bob Peckham
RESCENTLY IMPRISONED FOR MULTIPLE RAPE CHARGES
As opposed to the first speaker who seemed to disingenuously select the best of the 'west' and contrast that with the worst of Islam, as if Islam is the 'rest'. A poor argument that no doubt fooled those looking for just such confirmation bias.
@@nickthepostpunk5766 post a rebuttal then , Thrill me with your acumen
This was taped in 2007. Imagine the outrage if they even attempted to hold this debate today, it would be shouted down as ______ism and the speakers as _______ist.
Still great dialogue & debate. It was clearly stated that we need to call out the double standard.
John Blaker stop being so awfully boring ... it’s called debate and it still happens today
@@mikew1591 awww so cute, you're triggered
John Blaker I’m not triggered you intellectually deficient robot .. I think for myself you moron ... as for trigger I can suggest where to aim before you pull one ... at your empty head
Really? Which rock have you been living under?
Ibn Warraq's opening speech is a masterpiece worth engraving in stone.
Amen. That speech was mind blowing!
At 0645 in Wisconsin, before heading off to church, my youngest son and husband listened at my request. No time to share their thoughts, but they listened with rapt attention and without interrupting side conversation, that spoke volumes.
1st speech: WOW!
Agreed.
Ibn Warraq is Pakistani who lives in west. This is not his real name. He change it bcoz he did not wanted to be another Salman Rushdie.
Quite agree I was taken back, not what I was expecting.
Ibn Warraq knocked it out of the park!
+RockStudioLive Agreed
he says fuck all of any stubstance
Too bad he talked less than anyone else.
UniworldCityGGaon and it's the West that takes good ideas and inculcates them into our larger ideology. Recognizing that India isn't just one culture, how true is that as a consistent feature of Indian society throughout history? It also took the West a few hundred to maybe a thousand years to figure this out. There's generations of history that make these values axiomatic here in a way that there isn't in many other cultures.
UniworldCityGGaon I've actually heard that lecture from Dr. Tharoor, and I've been to India a couple of times. I love many things about the varieties of Indian cultures, but a large portion of the people I talk to want to further Westernize their country and culture, for one.
Also, none of this is to say that Europe has always been better or embraced better ideas, just that the past approximately 400 years Westernism, wherever it is implemented - whether in congruence with or over and against the local culture - is a great set of ideas, better than any others humanity has yet to devise.
The quote of the Century: 1:05:13
"This is masochism and is being offered to you by a sadist" Douglas Murray
It's brilliant. I cannot believe I haven't heard of the man until now.
Said with so much sass
@Jane Elliot, Jr. You mean that quote or what?
That's a lift from Hitchens
I really enjoyed this discussion. Even before Douglas Murray mentioned it, I felt the test of the values would be in the choice of where you would wish to live or not live in the world. I know where I would not wish to live.
I used to love the idea of living of Sweden until it went NATO
Maybe you don’t know anything about the rest of the world beyond what you hear in the news..
If all you knew about e.g. the US was their carceral population, their working poor, their drugs addiction, their many wars, their inequalities etc. You’d realize they are no better than China..
Tariq Ramadan's reaction when Ibn Warraq receives his ovation is quite telling!
I wonder if Douglas Murray has ever lost a debate. I doubt it very much.
Beth Tarig Ramadan is practicing taqqiya. Quran/Allah say Islam; by hook or by crook must dominate the world' caliphate. Until then they had to continue with their jihad.
***** Niccee. :)
Beth Well he did lose that debate against Julian Assange but that was completely biased to begin with lol.
Confused Quester against Julian Assange? Or about Julian Assange?
And I've seen this other one about immigration where his team lost in numbers but won in the amount of people they converted to their side of the argument from the start. That debate was very biased, soething like 80% of the crowd at the start of the debate disagreed, but they converted so many that it was almost even by the end.
Beth Great example. Actually that should be considered winning sort of don't you think? Because it depends on who changes most minds. Actually now that i come to think about the Assange one,he did in fact make a few people supporting the proposition and a few "undecided" convert to the opposition, but they didn't consider that valid grounds for winning. The majority even though reduced by a fraction still were "for". That probably isn't the best way to judge a debate lol
I am a black dude from Africa and I can tell you that the fundamental values that made the west great, are the greatest values in the history of humanity.
Nice one, hope you're prospering, did you make it to the west.
Colonialism aka British empire stinks .Most UK population in Victorian times were very poor.
Tariq Ramadam is the only person I know who can talk for an hour and say absolutely nothing.
Charles Glass began by sarcastically suggesting that his opponents were claiming that we in the west are superior as people. This was blatent dishonesty that obscured the issue and he knew it. There is an obvious difference between claiming an idea is superior and claiming that we in the west are superior as people.
Just like how your WHITE forefathers went around preaching bible? Now it is Western values... How come white values are always superior?
+AminTheMystic There is no such thing as "white values". The values that are superior are secular liberal, culturally libertarian values such as freedom of speech (especially where religious satire/criticism is concerned), free inquiry, freedom of belief, property rights, equal treatment or women (not killing/punishing women for being raped or honor raping women, for example) etc. These values don't have to be that great in order to be superior to the values espoused in countries where conservative Islam is the norm because their theocratic authoritarian values are just that bad. The values related to conservative Islam have no place in modern society.
+AminTheMystic
Why are you here if we are not superior? Stay in your superior muslim country if you think you are superior!
Kevin Afton
And who is in your inferior country? Don't talk utter shite... you dirty little pig.
AminTheMystic
Then why arent you in India if your country is superior?
Thank you Ibn Warraq!
what for losing the argument??
It's hardly worth answering you, but, for the second time, HE WON THE MOTION YOU MORON!
Funny how Dalrymple had to hark back to ancient times to find good examples of non-Western culture.
Proves that today the West is far ahead of the rest.
David Aaronovitch’s closing was not only poignant in its delivery but came the closest in giving a concise yet factually generous appeal for the motion. Loved it.
This was the first time i heard the great Ibn Waraq speak.
He's brilliant!
Check his hourlong interview with Gad Saad on "The Saad Truth." Warraq has been a hero of Mine for years.
Yes brilliant bla bla....
It was one sided, ahistorical drivel.
At the beginning, the moderator says 'Ibn, the floor is yours' without realising Ibn means son. So really what he said is, 'Son, the floor is yours' 😂
You can't say "there are no Eastern and Western values" and then turn around and bash Western values lol
Cory Y. you can if youre a dumbass post modernist
Exactly!! The last Anti- Western Soy boy even had the fucking nerve to try to pin Communism/Marxism on the West! As if Communism/ Marxism isn’t actually the Talmud and Judaism
@@lunaflamed The "Judaism" part i get, but the "Talmud" part i don't; for i'm not totally familiar with that book, but know it to be religious-philosophical in focus, and not the economies of man.
Nobody's actually doing that, so what's your point? In order to "bash Western values" (lol or non-lol) one has to accept that there really exists an entity that the term "Western values" actually describes. No one who disputes the existence of something can take a position about whether that thing is good or bad, desirable or not, because one can only take such a position toward something that exists.
@@ntodd4110 Your "point(s)" is(are) lost on us and require clarification/elaboration on your part. (& remember, "Context is KING" goes both ways; for you & your opponent)
It's funny how the Californian dude massively straw mans the issue, and then applies a value paradigm that is strictly western in order to cast judgement on his straw man.
Ha, thought the same!
the root of wisdom is the capacity to self correct and be honest enough with oneself to be self-critical when encountering new information. Neuroplasticity, to put it differently. Absolutely love discussions like this - prompted me to reconsider many of my positions.
Exactly, but Don’t forget you also have protect other peoples ability to do so!
The Islamic countries are worse than the communist countries as far as blatant abuse of civil rights and freedom of speech and thought! When these Muslims like speaker Ramadon talk about the goodness of Islamic countries why does he live in a European country and not a Muslim country.
The values of western thought & culture cannot be summed up better than Ebn Warraq, and if we don’t assert them the world will surely go into darkness!
It is painful to hear Tariq speak.
All I heard was something about curry.
He's merely a butthurt snowflake.
With some audiences it works though. Some audiences have a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt to someone with a foreign accent speaking broken English, just because he's got a foreign accent. Likening to when a newborn says his first words, and people are at awe and impressed. It's as simple as that.
Shoop, that’s totally true and the baby analogy is spot on. Transcribing his speech is the way to see through the accent trap
most likely because you are a racist twat !!
the very fact that Tariq CHOOSES to live in the west proves the motion!
+Gila Atwood doesn't he even hear himself? He can't go to Saudi Arabia because he's too progressive for them! And they are ALLIES of the west!
+Gila Atwood The cognitive dissonance that plagues Islamic migrants. They flee to Western countries from Islamic countries to assert the superiority or at least the neutral nature (religion of peace) of Islam to us. Quite fascinating indeed.
Taqiyya
Precisely, it's the very reason why millions sacrifice everything to live in the West to escape oppression, unfairness and poverty, and the reason billions dream of seeing their countries and societies operating under the same principles of liberty, safety, fairness, opportunity and tolerance that operate in the West.
And the very fact Tariq refuses to live in the 'paradise' of arabia proves the motion as well. How conveinent is it that he sits in the west to trash it while saying he's working on modernizing the muslim world's thinking. So why doesn't he go THERE and do that? Why does he work on the muslim world from his far away island? Oh I forgot, because he wouldn't have the freedom to do so and would soon be locked up or executed. And this he knows. Which is what makes him so dishonest.
Just watched this on TH-cam - and joined in the audience applause at the end of the debate in the comfort of my living room here in New Zealand. 🇳🇿
Same same down here In South Africa mate
In November 2017, Tariq Ramadan took agreed leave of absence from Oxford University to contest allegations of rape and sexual misconduct.[10] The university's statement noted that an "agreed leave of absence implies no acceptance or presumption of guilt".[4] In February 2018 he was formally charged with raping two women.[11] He denies wrongdoing and is suing one of his accusers for slander.[12] He is currently in jail awaiting trial!
Ibn Warraq is a brilliant and brave man.
He is
Agreed
I recommend reading his book, Why I am not a Muslim.
Well the first guy pretty much won it outright.
Teutone amén
Thats what I said to my wife... "this guy has already won the motion"!!
Yes Sir. Done n dusted we might say. But logic isn’t applicable, always.
Yeah that guy was fricken brilliant!
Using Islamic scripture to defend itself is not overly strategic
This was such a good debate. Civil, intelligent, great questions. This is the best of TH-cam.
"I do not wish to live in a society where you are stoned for adultery. I prefer to live in a society where we get stoned first, and then commit adultery."
- Ibn Warraq 1:39:40
lol
That’s decadence. That isn’t the highest of Western values
@@briandelaney9710 That's your opinion. I, like millions, of others here in the West see it as liberty.
@@L1b3rta
It is decadence :
(for the general , commoner population) decadence is one of the many facets of freedom...
I , for one , have my own fetishes and what not, and I enjoy the freedom to not be judged / killed for them...
@@briandelaney9710 Decadence is a sign of freedom.
Which can only be achieved in a liberal Democratic society.
@Yousef Ghaneemah No one follows the Bible. Most Christians like only Jesus because he was peaceful. But your people love the warlord and child fucker prophet
Dalrymple, I don't want to force my culture on any one. If you don't like my culture then please feel free to go to the airport, sod off and try another culture elsewhere.
David Barlow spot on mate
He lives in India and is an Indian citizen now, so yeah. :-)
The debate ended after the first speaker. Nuff said.
Mr, Ramadan knows Islamic religion very well and still he is defending it unbelievable.
Some are blind followers when it comes to religion be it any religion follower.
It's an ideological commitment backed by forces who want to use democracy against itself and spread the Islamist ideology. It also help him get legal and diplomatic cover when he gets caught raping women.
In fact, the Islamic world is not only plagued by the totalitarian nature of Quran and of course strong religiosity in general, but also of even pre-Islamic concepts such as "Namus", broadly speaking family honor and integrity, which has lead to countless honor killings and punishments. Imagine that, people living not even in the Middle Ages, but even in more ancient times, and migrating in the millions to Western democracies. Those that are not at least somewhat worried about that impact are bound to be downright naive.
28:00 - tariq asks whether he's "in or out" as a western muslim. let me answer this for him:
1) this is not about race, ethnicity, religion or geography and it's a very cheap move to pretend it is.
2) if he upholds the so-called western values, he's in. if he doesn't, he's out. that's the answer.
but what can you expect from a man who can't bring himself to say that he's against the stoning (of women) outright.
+Here0s0Johnny Exactly, and it would appear to me that this pattern is worryingly common among Muslims who try to disingenuously play the "discrimination" card.
YES!
The same is true for Islamic value if you accept them you are in if not you are out regardless of race or religion etc
I think the superiority of the values labeled “western” in this debate is beyond question. However, many people around the world - not governments, but people - have these same values. Western governments succeed far more frequently at espousing and defending them, but that doesn’t make the values “western”.
Yes. The superior western values talked about are universal, it's just that the west succeeded in making those values mainstream, and for that, I still give big thanks to the west.
@@wafercrackerjack880what are the values
They don’t defend anything but the interests of their owners.
Talk about democracy in Latin America where the US took down democratically elected governments to replace them by dictatorships.
Talk about freedom in Irak where 100.000s of people have been killed..
@@Memoiana You’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, while at the same time cutting brutal regimes like those in Iran a patently ridiculous amount of slack. Yes, western countries screw up, but their people know a level of freedom unheard of in many parts of the world. Try criticizing the CCP from a cafe in Beijing. Try reporting the real news in Russia. Try wearing the emblems of Judaism or Hinduism on the streets of Dubai.
The second speaker's constant conflation of ideas makes me grind my teeth with frustration.
Tariq brings up some interesting points to explore...that support the other side when you examine them closely.
This was a dissatisfying debate.
I agree I had to fact check him 3 times
Has anyone ever noticed that Tariq never actually says anything??
+Sean L. He's rather polished at doing it though, isn't he? I think he baffles a lot of people with his style of argument but as you have pointed out, despite being a bastion of knowledge in his field, Tariq very seldom says anything of actual substance to the debate or the fears of wider society.
BubaGump Shrimps The b.s. seems obvious to me. He is too polished. And it comes across as sophistry. Besides, I have enough experience with Islamists to know how the ones who sell themselves as moderates come across. I'm not buying it with him. I can tell when someone is putting forth an honest argument. I think someone like Maajid Nawaz is honest, for instance, even if I question the effectiveness of his ideas of reform.
Tariq never does.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought he was just rambling.
postmodernism. It's hard to actually affirm anything as true when you don't think anything actually is true at all.
ibn warraq's opening statement was brilliant. the debate could have ended right there.
The opposite in fact, because it demonstrates another example of Western superiority complex and arrogance, interestingly uttered by a colonial stooge.
Kay Em Are you implying that Warraq doesn't believe what he said? Are you implying that he isn't smart enough to examine evidence and come to his own conclusion? If I, with the knowledge I have now, lived in Britain before Rome invaded, I would be welcoming the Roman Empire with open arms because Roman society and culture, for all its faults, was better than British society and culture at that time.
Exactly! The debate could have ended with that opening of Ibn!
Brilliant yes. Ended? No. That would not be fair....to any & all.
@@kayem3824
What specifically d'you value about murdering adulterers and cartoonists? Or having the legal support to treat women as second class citizens or slaves?
Great question, why are people desiring to move to the West and not to Pakistan, etc.
Because there is war...... because it doesnt have the best livning Standards ........ but still there are many people, who would like to come back to their home countries, where other values, which are better for them, are, but they cannot, as there is war for example....... Western culture may be very good for having different people, with different cultures, but still refugees would rather prefer their values, than the western ones........
OMGosh the last 5 minutes of this is brilliant. This flaying delivered with British humor, is what I crave.
Douglas Murray was amazing as always. Ibn Warraq was also amazing especially for the first time I've seen him
Yes but he overuses the Ladies and gentlemen. It's annoying
@@antikokalis thats just good manners :-) but I am only 10:00 in
u have to be a racist to talk about ur superiority
@@raaid85 no
If that is the case then Islam is racist
@@RichardEnglander oh wow lol. yeah only the gulf countries who only exist cuz of US and UK
Ibn Warraq won the debate with his mic drop ending.
Douglas Murray really made a notion in the boss style
western values are by far the best to live by and organize society.
Douglas Murray is the man
tariq Ramadan must be congratulated for speaking for so long and saying absolutely NOTHING
Par for the course,every time he 'speaks' it leaves you less than underwhelmed,Christopher Hitchens described him as 'white noise'.an apt description,he(Ramadan)tries to defend the indefensible and he's useless at that,the less said about Glass and Dalrymple and their juvenile ramblings,the better.
What do you expect from an inferior set of values. In fact values aren't created in a vacuum. It takes a certain IQ to come up with better values. Something Tariq and his ilk lack.
@@kogikashakunin4683 I wonder if he thinks closed Muslim countries Should accept refugees and allow westerners to live their values freely in Muslim countries.... seriously he bores me with his rants trying to romanticize Muslim values, it’s quite dizzying, like trying to count someone do kart wheels
@@pinchebruha405 I know right. Europe needs a purge and a return to purity. Otherwise our IQ will continue to fall.
Kogi Kashakunin jeez watch yo self
Ibn Wariq guy is great at saying what people already know and want to hear ...
Ibn Warraq's last comment was hilarious. Great way to end a debate. :)
The argument about the Moghul king was complete bollocks. He may have been a great king and a tolerant man, but one of western civilizations greatest values is that we don't rely on the forbearance of kings for the protection of our rights. Kings change.
CavemanSynthesizer Well from the 19th century on maybe :)
That's the best thing about the West. Ordinary people can make a difference.
For anyone who considers intelligence to be attractive.... Douglas Murray must be the sexiest man on earth..... *Sigh*
OMG..... William Dalrymple is embarrassing.... How did he even get on the panel?
+Birch Williams haha, If I were a gay man I'd be on a plane to england as we speak.
buzzardbeatniks I'm tempted, believe me. ;)
+Birch Williams Douglas Murray claims to want everyone to enjoy the same rights that we do in his speech, yet he has a vehemently anti-immigration stance. He claims not to support violent enforcement of "our" superior values, which I accept are superior, yet he supports wars that try to achieve just that. He's an ideologue and a pseudo-intellectual.
geniusofmozart Yeah yeah... whatever. I'm all out of niceties today. So....
*Go fuck yourself*....
Tariq never fails to deliver a masterclass in incoherence
That is a beautiful sentence!😂😂👍👍
@Sunshine lollipops You have hit the nail on the head. In terms of coherence, Tariq is on the other extreme from Douglas Murray's eloquence.
The Crusades were hardly an attempt to "share western values" [intended meaning].
Islam invaded Europe a couple of hundreds years earlier than the crusades. They got all the way to modern day France look up the battle of Tours. If Charles Martel, a Frankish nobleman, modern day Belgium, had t won that battle we could well be Muslim now.
@@jackkruese9929 Yes, that is the high school textbook version of those events. Why are you telling me to look it up?
Titus Veridius
If it’s the high school version and you don’t need to look stuff up then you should also understand the point I made
@@jackkruese9929 Your point is that Muslims did it to Europe first. I just don't understand why you are telling me this.
Titus Veridius
Because it’s not a one way street Titus my friend, as your post was implying.
I'll give an example of Weston values over Muslim values. General Napier, famous for conquering the Sindh province now in present-day Pakistan, when confronting the practices of widow burning said "Be it so. This burning of widows on the funeral pile is your custom; But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs." You can Guess what happened to wife burning after that.
Great example. Thanks for sharing it.
there is no burning of bodies allowed in islam mate , you are talking utter rubbish .... and when has pakistan ever represented muslims ????
@@paulleannefischer1148 hes lying , there is no burning of bodies in islam !!!
@@garyoates4142 You have 1000 books. Have you read them all? Devil knows what's in all of them
@@antikokalis well theres nothing on burning bodies mate ..... its christians that were doing all that !!
maybe you should try and read one of the thousand books for yourself !!
Not oppressing women is a western value. Not persecuting members of other religions is a western value.
First speaker nailed it!
Standing ovation 👏👏👏
As a westerner you’ll feel your value is right. But when you are asserting it to others what gives you the right and how to guarantee the justice?
Ramadan is such a useless speaker. He is forever stressing that he is European. Know what, Tariq? You're really not. Everything about you is Egyptian and your frame of mind is very much like your grandfather's.
thats cause the west is based on judeo-christian commandments in our constitutions,not pagan or sharia
Well. NO. It really isn't. That is simply another fantasy and example of propaganda.
It may have come largely from countries following judeo-christian values, but that does NOT mean they are based on them.
In fact what exactly ARE judeo-christian values? The two had entirely different values.
I realize you probably imagine you understand all this, as it is simply stated as if it is fact, and taken foregranted. But what does this mean?
What are the values you are claiming to be judeo-christian values? And WHY?
Placing the educated thought through text of the American constitution up against the bible, one appears written by educated thinking, intelligent, men with integrity. The other is a very dated, old book of nonsense fantasy and absolute bullshit, that needs to be read and sieved carefully go garner anything reasonable. That people can possibly imagine the latter has some kind of extra knowledge, is laughably, clearly silly on it's face.
Please, PLEASE don't simply do what the majority of people tend to do. Don't simply attempt to repeat a few of the ten commandments you deem reasonable.
That really doesn't wash.
Our values are entirely secular. The ONLY reason the christian church, or rather portions of the church were dragged kicking and screaming into modernity. To imagine it was the other way around is laughably ill educated and verging on the delusional.
To be fair, I personally put it down to people not thinking about it, who simply accept what they have been informed. Possibly why the answers when asked to back up the assertion tend to be so poorly thought through, reasoned and argued. When an answer attempting to back up the assertion is forthcoming at all.
martin they grew out of those values to present but the mistake hear they separate the people from the values
but not really a surprise with all this pc bs we have to put up with
@@martingrundy5475 -are u atheist,islamist,satanist,curiosity only
@@makedonistoi Not sure where you are coming from or what exactly you are trying to say in your comments. Are you a Muslim, a Hindi, a Christian or other faith? Are you pro-Western culture/norms or pro-Eastern, Islamist culture/norms? Please be clear in your speech/writings.
Tariq Ramadan is intellectually overrated and I find myself wondering why such a sloppy thinker can be on the faculty of decent universities. One can go to virtually any graduate school and find students better than this guy, let alone faculty members. He talks about intellectual history and values but he needs to go back and read history with a bit more objectivity.
Tariq probably got his credentials through affirmative action.
@@lunaflamed His chair in Oxford was created for him, paid for by some Arab sheikh who gave a fat donation
Not one mention of the slave trade, the legacy of which still lives directly with us in so many ways.
Africans started the slave trade
I have yet to see Douglas Murray lose in one of these debates. If anyone knows about one such case please leave a link?
Wow, that first guy's speech. That should go down in history as one of the great speeches.
Agreed, I come back to it every year or so. A masterpiece.
Yeah totally everything a white man says in a suit is amazing! Bravo!!!!
@@hydraelectricblue White?
@@hydraelectricblue Ibn Warraq? In a jumper? White? What are you watching?!
AMAZING ....for sure👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
"That's masochism, ladies and gentlemen, and it's being offered to you by a sadist."
Bam.
And the supposed historian Dalrymple was put right on Indian history by Ibn Warraq and a member of the audience. I wonder if he knew this but was lying about it.
Great debate and an excellent chair/moderator!
Brilliant! Thoroughly balanced on all sides. Very stimulating.
I love watching debates like this one. Clearly, everyone on that stage has different opinions but they’re able to challenge each other without fear of being killed. The freedom of speech is what I consider to be the greatest of all Western values.
and the very most important one indeed I believe it is also being threatened by cancel culture which assumes guilty before proven innocent or more guilty
Freedom of speech is generally an illusion. Cancel culture has always existed.
hahahahahaha
@@Cecilia-ky3uw I feel like I don't even hear about these people until they've been "cancelled".
Well said!
Douglas was just 28 back then. Great man of our time
Yes, quite amazing!
@Edmund Stop psychologically projecting your idiocy onto others.
@@mikew1591 And your repulsive Orwellian automaton cult... is winning? Haha.
Murray is just a smug little Brit.
I wonder how we measure "greatness" , i suppose Douglas is the standard.
So strange to see Ramadan portraying a just and faithful muslim - knowing about him what we know now.
IQ-squared should be careful about titles like this, given TH-cam's new policies regarding 'hate speech'. I wonder how long this video will remain online, before TH-cam deletes it :)
_I do not wish to live in a society where you are stoned for adultery. I prefer to live in a society where we get stoned first, and then commit adultery_ - *Ibn Warraq*
_Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. The aim of creation was for mankind to be put to the test through hardship and prayer. An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious._ - *Ayatollah Khomeini*
Allah sounds like a fun bloke.
Allah is part of a bad children's story that you think is real...how sad.
good quotes
To contrast Ayatollah Khomeini's "Allah did not create man so that he =could have fun", Alan Watts, who is effectively a buddhist and uses the concept of god metaphorically, said "man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun". Quite different points of view!
Poor Tariq Ramadan. Shhhh, let the adults talk.
Santosh Anand I'm with ya, champ. But never ban books, that's bad joojoo for all societies. Instead, make an example of the Quran, show it and the Christian Bible for what they are: the worst instincts of humankind.encapsulated into books. If we ban bad things, we forget their impact, and we doom ourselves to make mistakes again. Religious people ban books, smart people don't act like religious people.
he is annoying...
according to Wikipedia he has been charged by French Police with raping two women.
he is a known sexual predator, he is done, finish
Mark Danielle I'm not a devout Christian, but to condemn the Christian Bible as encapsulating the darkest aspects of humanity is nonsense! Whether Jesus actually existed or not is immaterial. The basic tenets of Christianity are found in the Sermon on the Mount of Olives and any who claims to be a Christian must not only live by, but be seen to live by those teachings! The Old Testament, apart from the travels and battles of the Children of Israel, does not presume to be a guide for all humanity for all time, apart from the Ten Commandments with their injunctions against murder, theft and lying about other people! Adultery is frowned upon, as are envy and coverteousness, which can all lead to trouble, but to condemn the Christian Bible as encapsulating the darkest aspects of humanity is silly!
the basis on which we built western civilization in many respects reflects the highest human ethic.
Excellent moderator - and a good example of the universal values of the rule of law, democracy, liberty, equality, and an open society - evolved in the West and still being striven for over the last half millennium
The second speaker seems to really not *understand* the motion to be argued in the first place...
After confusing superiority of values with superiority of people he went on to cherry pick examples from history, often from a long ago history, a time were todays values from the enlightenment did not yet exist.
Edit: Glad to see the third speaker called him out on that
Abu graib
"Values from the enlightenment"... There's still a redpill you need to take, man
As an American myself, I'm embarrassed to see that one of our own stood up there and made a fool of himself.
He took the least amount of time to say the things with the least substance, and on the wrong side of the stage, no less.
I quite enjoyed that he ignored the low priority rules and spoke up like a decent human being. A little humility never hurt the most powerful nation in history.
The very fact that him, like most westerners, look see those events as atrocities to be despised is a display of the superiority of western values. Islamists brag and take pride on the atrocities they commit.
Douglas Murray - brilliant as usual, game over :)
At certain moments which I found particularly gratifying, I imagined a clinking of glasses coming from a godless afterlife where Orwell and Hitchens sat together with pints of lager, drinking to some of these eloquent truths delivered ably, with a certain amount of courage and, who knows, perhaps just in the nick of time.
That first speech...
In respect, I am going to use it sir.
Gin,
Tariq Ramadan school of debate: Say absolutely nothing of note, but do it in an angry voice, pointing your finger if possible, and then wait for the applause because you did it all in a foreign accent.
eltubster14 don't forget, interrupt and talk over someone else when it's their turn to respond.
Tbf, he actually managed to make his points, though none of them valid. The first argument was entirely hinged on the history of philosophy, i.e. who first invented "universal values". Then he tried to downplay the fact that certain inhumane practices applied population-wide as racial-based overgeneralisation of "one story". I would say if according to him this universal value is truly shared, then the reality only shows that the West has progressed much further towards the ideal.
@doilyfilm Lol! That phonetic writing is so accurate.
He seems like a dumb fuck to me!
Indeed. Can we add a splash of deceit also...
Whenever Tariq Ramadan talks, I just skip that part, cause I know he won't say anything. I think the last joke nailed this debate: " I do not want to live in a society where you are stoned to death for adultery. I prefer to live in a society where we get stoned first and then commit adultery." Well played, Warraq, well played.
How about neither? Both are degenerate as all Hell.
stoned in English means drunk, by the way
@@marcoalessandro2034 stoned in English refers to the effects of the usage of narcotics, typically cannabis
@@bengoodlad3970 ya , and pissed means angry...
@@marcoalessandro2034 to an American maybe. Pissed in England is usually synonymous with being drunk
In particular I found the last speakers arguments baffling. He says the values we call Western have existed other places before but his proof of that is examples of rulers who had to force those values upon their citizens. Now they didn't do so violently but there's a reason those values disappeared from the region when those rulers did. They are blips in history where things were good for those populations, examples of moral and just rulers, but unfortunately history tells us moral and just rulers are a rarity.
The reason they are called Western values is because they are values held by the West as a whole, not just a few people who managed to get into power either through war or birth right. We've come to these values through experimentation over a thousand years so not only do we hold them, we also know why they are superior.
I totally agree. The West achieved through trial and error, and the ability of reflection and nuance.
To the second speaker: superior values, NOT superior people.
He kinda exposed the lies of the west 🤷♂️
Israel did 9/11 and USS Liberty did he tho ? It was a repeat of the usual mantra of ‘oh ,the west is evil because they did colonialism and slavery !’.
John Smith
Nah. Iraq, Vietnam, 2 world wars, Afghanistan. Taking millions lives in serving jhooz wars
Israel did 9/11 and USS Liberty all civilisations fight wars of hegemony, that’s been the case for 5000 years .
It’s stupid to attribute the excesses of humanity to the West only .
Israel did 9/11 and USS Liberty of course we know that it was only ever westerners that fought in those wars and nobody else ??
Besides , you said he ‘exposed the west’s lies ‘ , how so ? Nobody’s hiding that fact that war crimes happened in Iraq and Vietnam ,although it would be interesting where you would prefer to live : would you want to live in the Muslim world were religious infighting still takes place after 1300 years . Or perhaps you’ll like to try to live under a communist regime ? I’m glad western civilisation exists , and you should be as well .
tariq is the worst of all debators ive ever seen for avoiding questions
Tariq does not debate. Debate requires that you first of all show an understanding of what your opponent is saying - and then responding to that.
He is now in jail for crimes against women , a karma he deserves
Arabs....
@bill Bloggs I dont know you may wana check online
Ramadan talks nonsense and he talks nonsense in circles.
For: the west has developed a system of freedom and we all want that
Against: we have been very naughty and we should feel ashamed of ourselves
Yes because you sell weapons that are used to kill children. You create industrial systems that are destroying the worlds ecology. You fight wars that kill millions for oil and other energy.
So yes you have values for your own people which is nice but you also don’t have any values when it comes to the lives of people in other poor countries.
Ultimately it’s hypocritical to say you are amazing and great whilst doing things that are not great.
@@jamesleon4883 Well said
@@jamesleon4883 People from ALL cultures do horrible things for personal interest, money, etc. Your argument is totally out of context to this debate. Some people sell weapons BECAUSE there are others, who will buy them and use them. Same is with prostitution... That has not much to do with what a culture offers to everyday people in everyday life. Speaking your mind freely, have a chance to be the best of yourself through education free to EVERYONE, not just boys, to be the owner of your body, being able to defend yourself against accusations, etc. are the values, that can create a healthier society IN GENERAL. Nobody said, there will be no wars, povery, or prostitution. Societies do not exist in an unidimensional world. But values can help to find the line where we can decide what wrong and what right is, with the least amount of FEAR.
@@richardkovacs2006 Perfect comment.
@@jamesleon4883 oh yeah because non western countries never go to war with each other. We might sell the weapons but it's you who's using them.
Beautiful to notice how this whole debate was possible in a secular frame, made possible by the western values
And yet hindsight shows how those values have done nothing but weaken into borderline irrelevance
It is also beautifull to notice that how the western media have fucked up your mind to think that we cannot have debates on sensitive topics in the eastern hemisphere.
@@huzaifasaeed7730 wanna talk about that girl that was hanged in Iran? Or that Christian girl that was sentenced to 10 lashes...? Too much...? Wanna talk about the code muslim countries impose to their tourists? You can go "fk Jesus" in any european country. Can I go "fk Alah" in your country?
@@AdamantSeraph True, western countries have far more freedom.
the openness, freedom and equality of western values unfortunately makes those western countries susceptible to people who would take advantage and exploit those values
After I listened to the entire discussion, I had to go back and listen to Ibn Warraq again.
That was such a concise, pragmatic petition for Western liberalism.
I felt a sense of poignancy while listening to Ibn Warraq's plea. It's evident to _everyone_ in the West that our system, however imperfect it may be, is _the best_ system for ensuring personal liberty, well-being, happiness, justice, and enlightenment for it's people. We refuse to admit this because we feel as though extolling our virtues implicitly negates the value of other virtues, and as a corollary, the people who live under systems that have implemented competing virtues.
Western liberalism is demonstrably _better_ than the competing systems, and no amount of self-deception will alter this fact.
As Douglas said, it need not be asserted with violence. It doesn't need to be vouchsafed or offered in a condescending manner, but it needs to be offered.
A refusal to do so ensures that the women and cultural minorities of the Islamic world will languish under an oppressive ideology perennially, and that human progress in these societies will forever be hampered by superstition, violence, and irrationality.
I agree totally. Western values are the best.
if western values are so good at making you happy why do western countries have the highest divorce/suicide/ antidepressant usage/ singles who dont have sex rates by far?
@@SimpleReally High divorce rates are the result of the full emancipation of women. It happens in every society where women have full autonomy.
As for antidepressants, we have very easy access to them. They're used for other things besides depression as well. (I take an antidepressant as a preventative for chronic migraines, for instance.)
As for suicide, I can only assume it's because we don't stigmatize suicide as much as some religious cultures. Don't really know.
Would you say the west is a liberal conservative system?
@@uniformityofnature1488 No, that doesn't exist. The term 'liberal democracy' doesn't have any partisan connotation.
I came for Douglas Murray but the first speaker just ended the damn night. Time to go home people. First round knockout.
He was a very good speaker indeed. Never heard of him before but I agree, he understood the subject and bought many examples to show why he thought the western system was superior to others.
@@grahamt5924 the western system is fraught with hypocrisy and corruption. no Morales what so ever. they are based on the whims of the elite. what a way to live.
@@aeshaosman2567 compared to what. Which system is better?
@@grahamt5924 a true islamic system. not the fake one that the Saudi regime and other so called islamic nations perpetuate.
@@aeshaosman2567 so give an example of a good system.
"I would prefer to live in a society where we get stoned first, then commit adultery" 😂😂👌
Douglas Murray FOR THE NOBLE PEACE PRIZE ! "how to you syart a dialogue with a people who only know to bomb the opposition?"
"This is masochism, and it's being offered to you by a sadist".
--He ripped that off Hitchens.
+Jean-Baptiste Clamence He was referencing Hitch-Murray was in the audience of the debate in which he used it. He wasn't trying to pass it off as his own.
they were friends
Of course he did, there were friends and respected eachother!! Fuck off
We all copy things either from a books, movies, great thinkers or great speakers. No shame in that.
I think he'd be quite comfortable having that taken and applied in the appropriate context, as it was here.
This Tariq Ramadan never answers the question directly.
Taqiyya
I’m from a non Western country, and saying that my culture is equal to the West not only impedes our own societal progress, but is also condescending. It’s saying our cultures should be held up to a different standard of human decency than the West. I believe all people, regardless of East or West, must have their human rights and freedoms. How come the West is allowed to criticize their culture and improve it while we’re not? I, and others in my country, WANT to live in a land without institutionalized and cultural sexism, racism and homophobia. We look up to Western values, because we want our countries to improve. There’s a reason so many of us move to the West. We can be killed in our own countries for expressing these beliefs.
By saying our cultures are just as good as the West, they’re saying the people in my country deserve lesser human rights and freedoms.
You're confusing culture and politics
Well said... the racism of lowered expectations is the hallmark of self-loathing westerners.
The west is far more capable of self-refelction.
At 49:00 William made a slight mistake, he said Akhbar from 3rd century BC, it was actually Ashoka.
Even Glass looks perplexed when Ramadan spouts off, even Glass doesn't get what he is mumbling about.
5 years later and our politicians have not listened to reasonable men like Ibn Warraq and Douglas Murray and we are in more trouble than ever, both in the Western societies and in the islamic world where Christians and Yazidis have been slaugtered in increasing numbers.
As far as the slaughtering is concerned, it has got little to do with Christianity or Islam, it is about how we are humans. We believe in intangibles, become afraid if challenged, and kill to prove a point, all the while calling ourselves 'civilized'.
And 4 years later going into 2022 it isn't looking much better 🤣🤦♂️😪
actually 15 (11 at the time you posted this comment). this debate was held in 2007.
@@shoshinsamurai7901 I've never killed anyone...nor do I call myself civilized.
@@ben_alfred 4 years later than the present Jesuslily was experiencing 4 years ago.
No one defined exactly what is the West and what are those values.
A truly brilliant conversation by some truly great minds