The Valeyard is not the Doctor, it's just an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side conceived between the Doctor's twelfth and final incarnation. The Valeyard is like the Dream Lord in that aspect, a manifestation of the darker side of the Doctor
Still don't know if that counts the TC stuff, but now we have as many faces as we want for the Valeyard to come from, even counting from Hartnell (Smith onwards can have it happen).
Ah yeah I came here to say this too, it could be interpreted as being between Capaldi and the end of the show, so they could show up anytime. Could make a cool series-long storyline
The Doctor can always simply choose to stop and to die as they are (12 almost went through w/ that) I don't think that would be any different with or without the TC stuff, regardless of quality.@@SirMeowsAlot89
@@troypynn6645 ooooooh thats a nice thought. What if the Valeyard is actually the Meta-Crisis or one of the new Doctors (14th or 15th) since they split apart
Yeah I'm not huge on the first Doctor no longer being the first but I have no problem with additional unknown versions. Part of me wanted it to be revealed to have been The Masters past all along trying to make the Doctor believe it was them as the Timeless Child, but you go with what the writers do at the time and move on
@@thewholookI would love it that it was an alternate version of the Doctor from another universe, given that we’ve seen that parallel versions of characters have different personalities and that the Fugitive Doctor is more prone to violence than the Doctor.
@@thewholook There is a theory that the timeless child was created by the Lord President during the war against the Daleks... In the last days of the time War, the high command was thinking about preserving the Gallifrey race at all costs... And probably the timeless child was one of the Galifreans sent to another reality with an infinite amount of regeneration... In the film 5 doctors, it was said that the Galifreyans can make endless lives for themselves... but it is forbidden! However, all prohibitions were lifted in the time war! so in theory, a child with the doctor's CNC, the doctor's genetic memory, could be sent to another reality in order to create a new artificial galifrey.
It's also a Retcon that the Doctor can regenerate at all ... is from Gallifrey, is a Time Lord, etc ... the lore evolved over many years and is still being changed and added to
@@backtothefutureman1 Well Jodies doctor does mention that. But the fugitive Doctor says I know then throws her the gun. Also remember though The Doctor didn't like that era of their lives. But The War Doctor had to be a little more violent.
As far as I'm concerned, the series started with William Hartnell as the first Doctor and ended with Peter Capaldi as the twelfth, so there are 13 incarnations of the Doctor, including William Hurt's War Doctor.
**The 14th Doctor and Donna's Destined Reunion** The meeting between the 14th Doctor and Donna was orchestrated by 'the boss,' leading to their destined reunion. Following 14s Bi Regeneration, They subsequent merge gave rise once more to the entity known as the DoctorDonna. However, this amalgamation caused the 15th Doctor to lose memories of his past incarnations (1-15). **Timeless Transformation and Parallel Universe** The 15th Doctor, stripped of TARDIS and memories, underwent a transformation into the Timeless Child. This transformation spawned a parallel universe under the governance of the Division. **Fugitive Doctor's Evolution and Intervention** The Fugitive Doctor evolved into the final iteration, rescued from the Division timeline by the 13th Doctor's TARDIS. This intervention, occurring after parting ways with the 13th Doctor on Earth, enabled the Fugitive Doctor to reintegrate into the original timeline, leaving the TARDIS at the Ghost Monument. **The Discovery and Propulsion to Timeless Destiny** The discovery of the TARDIS at the Ghost Monument by the 13th Doctor propelled her journey towards becoming the Timeless Child. The emergence of the Division timeline introduced an alternate Master, revealing the Timeless Child's future to the 13th Doctor. **The Flux and Parallel Parental Separation** The Flux was designed to conclude the Division universe, with the Fugitive Doctor caught within it. However, this event influenced the 13th Doctor instead, leading to an encounter with Bel and Vindor - the Doctor's parallel parents intentionally separated by the Grand Serpent. **Fugitive Doctor's Mission and Parallel Encounter** Following Fugitive's encounter with the 13th Doctor on Earth, she rediscovered the original timeline and returned with a mission to dismantle the Division. In this quest, she encountered her friend Kavanista, Bel, Vindor, and their child - the parallel Doctor who, in the Division universe, never became a Time Lord. **Ruby's Role and End of the Division Universe** FugitiveDoctor brought baby Ruby to Ruby Road, initiating a meeting with the 15th Doctor to retrospectively prevent the transformation into the Timeless Child. Instead, Ruby assumed the role, thwarting the creation of the Division universe and bringing its end. **Renewed Gallifrey and Doctor-Donna's Safeguard** With the amalgamation of 1-15 Doctor's memories, Ruby embarked on a new life within a fresh universe, emerging at the genesis of a renewed Gallifrey to guide their future away from the previous Time War history. Doctor-Donna, now a permanent entity, safeguards the integrity of the Doctor's original universe within UNIT. **Doctor Multiverse and Rassilon's Plan** The Doctor multiverse began when the 11th Doctor absorbed energy through temporal cracks from Rassilon. This was set in motion after the Doctor saved Gallifrey, altering the timeline to prevent the deaths of 11 Doctors at Trenzalore. Subsequently, the 12th Doctor expelled Rassilon from Gallifrey, propelling him to change his identity to The Grand Serpent infiltrating UNIT before a portal during the Flux transported him to a primitive Gallifrey, where his plans unfolded. **Crucial Division Universe and Ruby's Pivotal Role** The existence of the Division universe is crucial for the subsequent universe, preventing the erasure of any Doctor's past. This sequence is necessary to steer the 15th Doctor towards becoming the Timeless Child, ultimately paving the way for Ruby's birth within the Division universe. Ruby plays a pivotal role in thwarting the Division itself, creating the next universe.
The Timeless Children, and the "Morbius Doctors" are not Doctors. They may be the same person, but they did not have the Title: The Doctor. The 1st Doctor was William Hartnell because that is the Incarnation that thought it was their first life, and made the promise to never be cruel or cowardly and took the title: The Doctor. This was a name chosen at The Academy on Gallifrey by that Incarnation of the person we all love. So yes, TC & MD are the same person, but people are not born as Doctors, they become Doctors at some point in life. Also I think it is pretty clear upon my rewatching of Jodie's entire run that The Fugitive Doctor can easily fit between Doctors 2 & 3, and in fact, this is the ONLY placement that makes any sense at all. To explain: The Timeless Child was experimented on by and indoctrinated into The Division. A Division of the CIA. The Same CIA that convicted the 2nd Doctor of intervention. They could easily have intercepted him on his way to forced regeneration, put back in the TC memories and made them an agent again for a brief time, possibly just for the mission on Atropos, and then that Doctor became a Fugitive, but would eventually be caught, memory re-wiped, and turned into Pertwee/3rd Doc. Why go through these loops/hoops when it is easier to just say this Incarnation is before the 1st Doctor? Because of the TARDIS. The Timeless Child did not have a TARDIS. If anything they might have had a Capsule, but Susan came up with the acronym and it went viral on Gallifrey. The Fugitive Doctor has not just any TARDIS though, she has one stuck looking like a Police Box. The Chameleon circuit was broken by the 1st Doctor so this has to be After that happened. Because if it didn't then the writers are asking us to believe that the Chameleon Circuit was broken TWICE in a row while assuming the same shape in the same time period, which is just stupid. 😅
But the circuit was fixed by the 6th doctor and we don’t know how long the doctor and Susan were living in the junkyard before the event ps of an unearthly child it’s implied that they had been there a while through her teachers Ian and Barbara when they are talking about Susan’s seemingly advanced knowledge and the biggest problem with Ruth being a season 6b doctor is her not knowing what a sonic screwdriver is so that confirms she is pre hartnell cause the sonic screwdriver is something the doctor wouldn’t just forget about having
@@kevin10001 Ugh, another foot in the rear for Chibnall. None of this makes any sense. I swear he forgot about the Chameleon circuit when writing Fugitive of the Judoon. And probably forgot people aren't born Doctors, they become them... So we are expected to believe that they chose the same name twice, and they had 2 TARDISes that got stuck on the same setting, or Clara managed to point him in the direction of their original TARDIS when he ran off with Susan. Just goofy. I hate things not to make sense or to require stupefying leaps of faith or acceptance of coincidence.
@@R_SENAL The Doctor had his memory wiped, thought he grew up on Gallifrey and then stole a Tardis, but the wipe was not complete, and the Name he chose and the old Tardis he picked were the same ones he had before, the Tardis long had a faulty Chameleon Circuit and defaulted to the Police Box
@@R_SENAL according to Big Finish, yes. In one of the stories the 8th doctor makes a passing comment that he used the secondary control room as the main one 'ages ago when he wore a tricorn hat,' which is a description that fits one of the Morbius Doctors.
@@R_SENAL with chibnall being a classic era fan I’m sure he knew about the circuit working then the show making it not work again cause fans wrote into the show complaining about the tardis being fully functional cause they couldn’t handle the tardis not being a police box also it’s never stated in the show when the doctor adopted the name doctor and it’s safe to assume that Ruth was hiding out of her place in time like David’s doctor did in the family of blood
To me, when the timeless child got their mind wiped and turned back into a baby, they also limited his regenerations because otherwise at some point The Doctor would get to 13, carry on regenerating and then try and find out why, plus having it limited means everything before still works fine.
Cool way to look at it. For me I look at the timeless child is part of all future time lords. To make the Doctor the timeless child makes him to god like. But you could be right too. The one problem with some of what I call glitchs. Is the show really hasn't smoothed it out. See Big finish and comic can try to write their telling of the story. But it can and has happened before. If not show on tv and what you can say given the stamp of approval it not canon. What I'm saying is I wouldn't like it. but you might be right. They need to smooth these things out.
@@williamwheeler7068 Yeah I get you, I like my idea because it still makes The Doctors past mysterious but it also separates The Timeless Child and The Doctor, best way to describe it is, we have Classic Who and New Who, same show but we still call them Classic and New
With The Fugitive Doctor being called Doctor, that’s when it hits a little bump but you can always say they picked the name but still got reset and that’s why the 1st Doctor picked the name Doctor, because it was there deep in the back of his mind Same way the Moribus Doctors popped up in the mind bending thing, he didn’t know about them but they are still there very very deep in his mind
We believe that in “Listen” Clara meets a young incarnation of The Doctor who is not of the seven Timeless Children. To be fair, counting the known versions is difficult enough, but the true possible number In immeasurable, considering what the Doctor has himself said in various episodes. For example, The Curator’s comment of visiting a few favorite faces. That is a major suggestion of reappearing Doctor incarnations. 10/14 is just proof of concept. And with the new biregeneration, we have doubled the possibilities of regenerations and biregenerations.
Yeah the TARDIS said those others were future rooms. The doctor told her you cant archive something that hasnt happened yet and she replied "YOU can't".
@@lesigh1749 but just because it’s in his future doesn’t mean theyre not in the past. Past and future are just terms we used to refer to time. But they have no relevance. If you time travel your future and past swap because you past is now your future and your future is now your past.
@@AxelaxiB Actually Timelords are expressly forbidden to travel within their own timestream like that. It's the first law of time. It's also why they don't constantly meet themselves, the TARDIS is designed to avoid it unless specifically overridden by the high council.
@@thewholook I mean, half of that “turnover of Doctors” is a bunch of jumbled-up silent cameos that only appear in flashbacks for like half a second each. Are we really putting Unnamed Child Extra #6 and Philip Hinchliffe in a Funny Hat in the same league as Tom Baker and Matt Smith?
I mean, hardly confirmed, I'd certainly debate aspects of what counts as an incarnation here - the Master Doctor shouldn't really count, and I'd argue that per the way incarnation is defined, 10 and "14" are the same incarnation.
@@theoutcastboiI had the same thought about how they should be the same, at first, but 14 Did come "naturally" & chronologically after 13, and obviously has all of her memories (along with 11 & 12), so I think we kind of Have to consider him his own incarnation. especially since his personality is a bit different as well! if only subtly. he just seems more "Mature" and open with himself, and less arrogant, etc. so while he does have the old face, he is still different than 10! personally, I'm just hoping that calling him the "FourTenth" Doctor might catch on 😂
I questioned it before recording, forgot to mention it when I got to 10 and now I regret it, although it wasn't a separate incarnation it did use up 1 regeneration cycle so I should've at least mentioned that, I guess I partially did when I spoke of Meta-Crisis though
I think an interesting discussion is how many regenerations the Doctor has left if he only got a new cycle of 12 in Time of the Doctor. You already got 4 used up, just from the standard regenerations and bigeneration: 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15. In The Witch's Familiar, Davros stole regeneration energy from Twelve. We have no idea how much was stolen so it is entirely possible a whole regeneration got used up. Then you got the Master Doctor. Given forced regenerations count (2 > 3 counts) there is no reason one shouldn't have been used up then. But what about when it was reversed? The CyberMaster's regeneration energy was used to fuel the degeneration, so I don't think the degeneration counts, but did the extra regeneration energy used restore the regeneration the Master stole or is it just gone? So that could be as many as 6 regenerations already used up. And that's before you even get started how the bigeneration works. Did 15 get all the regenerations? Did the regenerations get split between 14 and 15? Is 14 still somehow going to become 15 through timey whimey stuff? Does that need an other regeneration to be used?
Not to mention that Rassilon didn’t even know how much regeneration they gifted him during Time of the Doctor, makes me wonder if they didn’t actually give a new cycle but restored the Doctors timeless child regenerations, which could be endless. Be interesting to see how they deal with it properly in the future. The conversation between 14 and 15 in the TARDIS explains what happens with 14s future. 15 tells him that he’s better now because 14 got the chance to get better. Implying that 14 will eventually die and be reborn out of the bigeneration through Ncuti
I understood it that way that the Timeless Child had no limit and the limit was set while the Shobogan made themselves to the Time Lord. Than they adjusted the Timeless Child's DNA to be like the Time Lord. So in my opinion for The Doctor the limit was factitious and eventually eliminated.
I do think it is likely the Doctor's regeneration limit was just lifted. But in absence of any definitive answer there is still room for speculation. Also on the topic of Rassilon not knowing how many regenerations were granted to the Doctor. Given Rassilon himself was a Time Lord founder, surely he knew the Timeless Child? Whether he knows the Doctor is the Timeless Child or not would be a different question, but regardless, Rassilon might know the limit is artificial. Hell in Classic Who it was implied that Rassilon might have have infinite regenerations too, and if you go with expanded universe stuff (before the Timeless Child stuff), than that limit might have been put in by Rassilon himself. After all the Master never says that Tecteun was responsible for the regeneration limit, only that Tecteun cracked the genetic code. So there is certainly enough to speculate Rassilon was simply lying about not knowing to cover up the fact the Doctor no longer has a limit.
The Fugitive Doctor is the last of the Timeless Doctors, given what were told in Once Upon, TIme and The Timeless Children. Fugitive is the incarnation before Hartnell.
Im surprised you didnt mention the future incarnation implied by the seventh doctor story "Battlefield", aka Merlin. Most of his description is from expanded material tbf though he is established in the show
We only know for certain that Hartnell wasn’t the first doctor. And you brought in the prove we know. The most morbid thing about the timeless child is that the Timelords are basically all children of the doctor xD
The 10th Doctor is shot by a Dalek in 2005-4.12 The Stolen Earth and regenerates w/o changing the body. So I count this as incarnation 27 and 28. Also the doctor has to regenerate back from the Master Doctor, so I count the 13th doctor as incarnation 31 and 33. So currently I assume there are at least 34 incarnations including the Curator - or better: at least 33 regenerations of The Doctor. Perhaps it is somehow a philosophical question if the Meta crisis doctor coming from the hand is an incarnation and The above mentioned 10th doctor itself is only incarnation 27, but anyway there is a regeneration and in my opionion that is the point. Note to myself: I have to refresh my memory about the Morbius Doctors.
Big Finish confirms The Curator is a potential future version of the Doctor. There is a Tom Baker and Colin Baker incarnation, and a Matt Smith incarnation is possibly mentioned
Yes, I hope we see the Curator pop up again in TV in forms of other Doctors. The only problem with Big Finish is that it's basically canon to the show until a showrunner says otherwise. Like RTD just seemingly undoing all of the Toymaker's extra stuff.
@@thewholookTechnically wouldn't that make the new series of non cannon since it came first Not like they're actually is a cannon And I've seen the latest special. And there's barely even a reference to the first time the doctor met the toy maker Doesn't retcon anything The doctor just doesn't talk about Anything ever
@@plantainsame2049 it’s actually what the toymaker says rather than what the Doctor says, when he says first game was against 1st doctor, 2nd was this doctor (14) and 3rd would be with the next (14/15) but big finish and comics/novels has had toymaker appear for multiple other times contradicting the line from the episode.
@@thewholook I mean this adventure could be before those Adventures because of time travel He could have forgotten one of those times when his dimension collapsed. I don't know the thousands of excuses Can't take things characters say face value because characters get things wrong
Seeing as the Doctor now proceeds the formation of the Time Lords/Time Lord society... coupled with knowledge like... "The oldest and most mighty race in the universe" - 10th Doctor "The last of that wise and ancient race" - voice from the pocket watch. "10 Billion years of absolute power! That's what it takes to become truly corrupt" - 6th Doctor Considering the The Doctor now preceeds the birth of the timelords and outlived them. The doctor is Billions of years old and possibly one of the oldest things in this universe....... so safe to say the incarnations are uncountable.
He's still 1st to me, because w/out knowing he had all these other lives he is the one who mad the promise to be a Doctor. People aren't born Doctors, they become Doctors, so WH will always be, IMO, the 1st Doctor.
My headcanon is this. 1.1st Doctor is the 1st Doctor 2.2nd didn’t regenerate after war games he did missions for the time lords and got his memory erased and turned into the fugitive Doctor. 3.Fugitive Doctor worked for the division and got erased. 4.Morbius Doctors also did missions for the division and its memory wiped. 5.3rd doctor. 6.4th doctor 7.5th doctor. 8.6th doctor 9.7th doctor 10.8th doctor 11.The War Doctor. 12.The 9th Doctor 13.Tenth Doctor 1 14.tenth Doctor 2 15.11th Doctor 16.12th Doctor 17.13th Doctor 18.14th Doctor and 15th Doctor 19.Curator is who 14 was.
I would count the Curator as a future incarnation otherwise 14 doesn't make sense. The rest you were wise to exclude. So I would make that 34 Doctors we know of.
So watching the '23 Christmas Special and the number 33 came up a bunch especially with Ruby's mom adopted kids and the whole idea of coincidence. What are the odds that 33 landing on the 15th Doctor here and on Christmas is a coincidence?
I always assumed that the Valeyard in retrospect was a manifestation of the Timelord Victorious. If he is after the 12th incarnation (Tennant's 2nd regen) and before the 13th incarnation (Matt Smith) of the first cycle, that sets up for the Timelord Victorious in the Waters of Mars to be just before the regeneration in the End of Time and therefore just before his 13th incarnation.
We know that Victoriousness was in 10, so it will also be in the Metacrisis Doctor. I've always thought that humanized Doctor that can no longer regenerate but might still outlive Rose might eventually become The Valeyard, and with a human's limited memory not remember how this turned out for him and go back and try to take a Doctor's lives from earlier on so he could get more of them. So similar thoughts here, but w/a slightly different variation.
Well for me. Oh yes I get jumped on about this. But for me there are 16. The rest are gitches and the timeless child thing is a joke. Mine are 1st, 2nd, Fugitive, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, war, 9th, 10th, 11th. New cycle 12th, 13th, 15th. then ten more faces no repeats to come. The Curator like one post I read could be the 14th doctor future look. Fuss all you want that is my stand wrong or right that is how I put myself at ease with the show.
It's neither. It's just the Doctor. But I don't get the problem with that. Hartnell's incarnation had no memories of calling themselves "the Doctor" in the distant past, so he actually chose his name again, for entirely different reasons, as if it were an original choice. It's like the real story of that woman suffering temporary amnesia and meeting her boyfriend for the first time. She didn't remember him, but she said that he was beautiful, she literally feel in love again (but for the first time) with him.
I came to the same conclusion. At some point in the future, 14 gets stuck back in time and accepts his role as Curator from Elizabeth I in the late 16th century. He's regenerates becoming the First Curator, just one of the many past faces returning leading into the version of the Curator we met in The Day of the Doctor.
It's not the curator has a number it's just impossibly high It's a completely separate thing Also from my understanding. Eventually, the 14th doctor will die and then wake up splitting off as the 15th. Doctor it's just that time has gone wibbly This is why the fifteenth doctor seems to be a lot healthier than fourteen was
Is the 7th doctor confused with Merin from Battle Field? Is it possible there may have been another registration before, say, the first appearance, timeless Merlin? Though the first doctor is the beginning and has got regeneration abilities prior to this time, so is believed,but it could be the first was around in Britain at the time of King Arthur and called himself Merlin and the story is the same that follows? And he thats the reason under the identities the doctor uses when arriving in England medieval times? This is when he first stole the tardis prior to his original adventures. But as we all know, neither his first appearance is explained before that point, and probably his early days on earth won't be televised before. Unearthly, Child.. kind of be interesting if a project like this would be made?
Here's my personal thought well i accept there were regenerations before the first doctor i don't accept any of them as the doctor. Simply put it feels like the point is missed of the name the name was a name that was chosen by the doctor and since we know the fugitive was mind wiped and limits put on there regeneration i find it hard to believe and regeneration before 1 called themselve the doctor.
why is the Timeless child had be the Doctor is odd and his had not seeing and his had keeping thinking of why not even the war Doctor and his own dark part too, why not it was cool too,
To help get rid of that cannon, breaking bullshit of the doctor being just another time lord They have been Written as a pioneer amongst their own people since before the time lords were even created as a concept
@@thewholookIs multiple time wars everything is cannon Peter cushing was a movie in universe And it's entirely possible that a mister bean looking chunk of doctor split off during the time war
Peter Cushing, Trevor Martin, David Banks! I am old school Doctor Who having started watching about 1976, so there is nothing before William Hartnell's 1st Doctor! (before y'all start shouting about the Morbius Doctors, i never believed that any of the 8 shown were actually the Doctor. he suddenly gets all these other past incarnations revealed and you never see Morbius but suddenly the Doctor is able to beat him? Really??) 🤔
An different series with the same charater. It's sequel sooooo... We see the regeneration McGann-Hurt "the night of the Doctor" and the first Doctor with Capaldie in "twice upen a time"
Well, look at the transition over from Troughton to Pertwee. I get the strong feeling that some Time Lord shenanigans could have taken place during that sequence - the "What's going on? Stop that! You're making me giddy! No! No!" sequence. Whilst we were kept busy with our 'Third Doctor' that followed that - as we all recognized him to be at the time - I think some splintering went on there and just as happened at the end of The Five Doctors, with which the Fifth Doctor called "Temporal fission" and the TARDIS pluralized, calving off, each with their individual occupants. If the Time Lords can do that with a TARDIS, then a singular Time Lord would be no problem whatsoever. Chris Chibnall COULD have used that as a jumping off point - but didn't - and all this Timeless Child addition and angst could have been avoided. Another case of overwritten, overjargoned and cardboardly characterized. Chris! Four out of ten! - And I'm being generous!
I'd have to go with 13 total (including John Hurt) among the cannonical stories. That's all the Doctors prior to the totally retconned, crappy alternate history that was recently invented. Which I'm happy to exclude from the list because I really hate shit writing.
THEORIES ABOUT OTHER FORMS OF THE-DOCTOR MIGHT OF BEEN & WHY HE DOESN’T REMEMBER & MORE: I theorize The-Doctor might have changed ten times, that he doesn’t know about. Now the reason why he doesn’t know; Is because some of his memories were removed from his mind. Now the forms he doesn’t remember, I imagine he changed four times as a kid, five times as a young adult, and I imagine the tenth form is the Fugitive-Doctor. I also imagine when The-Doctor was a young adult, his adoptive mother, feel in love with a healer TimeLord, married him, and had a daughter with him. So I imagine that daughter, of his adoptive mother, would become his sister, and when she became a mother, of her first child that’s a daughter, she would be his niece. There for I imagine that The-Doctor, wouldn’t remember anything, about other forms he might of changed into, if some of his memories were removed. And that includes memories about other family members, and it also includes memories about his niece.
Say what you want about the timeless child (I’m not a huge fan but I’ve accepted it) but I’m glad that they thought to canonize the morbius doctors as some of the Doctor’s past lives. It’s a really cool detail that they could have easily skipped over but didn’t, and my favorite part of that whole timeless child thing.
You'll be a f****** laughing stock. It literally fixed cannon. It wasn't handled well, but you know it fixed that b*******Just another time Lord fanfiction nonsense, which ignores literally everything. But a few lines in the seventies but everyone seems to be obsessed with it
An alternative approach is, that the fugitive is between 2 and 3 in the time where the doctor is working for the CIA. We never see 2 regenerate into 3. Plus we see the First Doctor steal the TARDIS; which is the same one the fugitive Doctor has. Morbius Doctors could also go in this space
but that would create another problem with the 12 regeneration cycle and Matt Smith doctor didn't count Ruth as a regeneration but did count War Doctor and Meta Crisis
I actually have an idea if a future showrunner decided to retcon it but still keep Ruth and Timeless Child stuff intact. I won't go into it too much here as I want to do a video on my idea but the basic of the idea is Doctor ISN'T Timeless Child BUT Timeless Child IS Doctor. I don't imagine anyone will retcon it TBH but if someone decided to make 1st the 1st again its a way
No, Season 6B isn't a thing going solely by what the TV show establishes, and the EU, the sole place that establishes Season 6B as an existing thing, outright establishes the Fugitive Doctor is pre-1 anyway. So no, the Fugitive Doctor isn't between 2 and 3 by any stretch of the imagination.
@@theoutcastboi 6B is unfortunately a thing. I was against it for years, but then Fugitive Doctor and now Big Finish making it a thing, I think we lost the fight. That said, I bought and listened to both BF box sets in the 6B frame and neither said anything about the FD, not sure where you get that is somehow already saying no to the idea. IMO they are laying the groundwork to make it all fit there.
@@thewholook You know, kinda reminds me of how we were all cool with The Doctor being The Other from Lungbarrow, but we all lost it when the TImeless Child was introduced, largely because of The Way in which it wad done IMO. I liked The Other, but hated TC plot, because TO was a Part of what became The Doctor, not the whole of The Doctor.
can someone explain to me the whole master-doctor thing? its been a while since i watched Jodie's run. i dont remember them saying anything about her regenerating into him, and then back to herself? like, what? what did i miss? lol
It's from Power of the Doctor (Jodies final episode) where the master forced a regeneration onto 13 and he took control of the regeneration causing his body to take over, and she went to the Edge of Existence to the manifestations of past incarnations telling her if she passes the Master fully takes over, it's reversed eventually with Jodie taking the body back and the Master restored to his dying body
@@thewholook huh. okay yeah I definitely need a rewatch sometime 😂 apparently I forgot the entire plot of that episode 😅 all I ever see of it these days are gifs of her regen on that cliff lmao
Since the Timeless Child we and the Doctor has found out the Doctor is not limited (and never has been) to 13 ... He wasn't given a new cycle on Trenzalore just given the belief he could regenerate ... Only Gallifreyan Time Lords are limited (deliberately), and he isn't Gallifreyan
Much easier if everyone retcon's the Chibwit era. It's was the worst writing (and production) in the whole Dr Who era. And as for the the new actor, not bothering. My viewership and money i spent on merchandise is obviously not of interest to the BBC anymore. BBC... you are the weakest link... Goodbye.
No more than replacing him because Incredibly sick You know the very fucking reason regeneration was created The entire contact of regeneration is incredibly disgusting when you remember they created it because they still wanted to make money Instead of ending the show when the main actor was very very ill
How many Doctors? 13 - from Hartnell to Capaldi. None before Hartnell and none after Capaldi. The 12th Doctor was the 13th incarnation, counting the War Doctor, so the show should've ended with his death.
If you want to just count the original life cycle then that ended with Matt Smith, because of the War Doctor, and because 10 regenerated in Journey's End and kept the same face cause of the template in the severed hand. By your definition he should have died in Time of the Doctor with Matt Smith. However, if you watch that story, there is a bit at the end where a whole new cycle is given. So even if we ignore Timelessness potential, this would be just like Borusa promising the Master a whole new life cycle in the 5 Doctors.
That wasn’t the timeless child being retconed that could be an explanation for why David’s face returned even though it’s a week but passable explanation
Steven Moffat has suggested that Doctor Moon in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is the 45th and final incarnation of the Doctor.
The Valeyard is not the Doctor, it's just an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side conceived between the Doctor's twelfth and final incarnation.
The Valeyard is like the Dream Lord in that aspect, a manifestation of the darker side of the Doctor
The Valeyard is actually an incarnation between the 12th and Final Regeneration of the Doctor, not the 13th.
Still don't know if that counts the TC stuff, but now we have as many faces as we want for the Valeyard to come from, even counting from Hartnell (Smith onwards can have it happen).
Ah yeah I came here to say this too, it could be interpreted as being between Capaldi and the end of the show, so they could show up anytime. Could make a cool series-long storyline
The Doctor can always simply choose to stop and to die as they are (12 almost went through w/ that)
I don't think that would be any different with or without the TC stuff, regardless of quality.@@SirMeowsAlot89
I have a personal head cannon that the valeyard comes through in the form of the TimeLord victorious
@@troypynn6645 ooooooh thats a nice thought. What if the Valeyard is actually the Meta-Crisis or one of the new Doctors (14th or 15th) since they split apart
Despite the fact that I don't like retcon where William Hartnell is no longer the first doctor... the video is very good!
Yeah I'm not huge on the first Doctor no longer being the first but I have no problem with additional unknown versions. Part of me wanted it to be revealed to have been The Masters past all along trying to make the Doctor believe it was them as the Timeless Child, but you go with what the writers do at the time and move on
@@thewholookI would love it that it was an alternate version of the Doctor from another universe, given that we’ve seen that parallel versions of characters have different personalities and that the Fugitive Doctor is more prone to violence than the Doctor.
@@thewholook There is a theory that the timeless child was created by the Lord President during the war against the Daleks... In the last days of the time War, the high command was thinking about preserving the Gallifrey race at all costs... And probably the timeless child was one of the Galifreans sent to another reality with an infinite amount of regeneration... In the film 5 doctors, it was said that the Galifreyans can make endless lives for themselves... but it is forbidden! However, all prohibitions were lifted in the time war! so in theory, a child with the doctor's CNC, the doctor's genetic memory, could be sent to another reality in order to create a new artificial galifrey.
It's also a Retcon that the Doctor can regenerate at all ... is from Gallifrey, is a Time Lord, etc ... the lore evolved over many years and is still being changed and added to
@@backtothefutureman1 Well Jodies doctor does mention that. But the fugitive Doctor says I know then throws her the gun. Also remember though The Doctor didn't like that era of their lives. But The War Doctor had to be a little more violent.
You didn’t count the 10th doctor twice- he regenerated into himself
Actually, while the Doctor used regeneration energy, it was not a regeneration so much as a use of that energy to heal himself.
Still the same incarnation even if it counts as a regeneration
They explicitly did at 4:31
@@seankelly8432It literally explicitly is Though that's why it counts
As far as I'm concerned, the series started with William Hartnell as the first Doctor and ended with Peter Capaldi as the twelfth, so there are 13 incarnations of the Doctor, including William Hurt's War Doctor.
**The 14th Doctor and Donna's Destined Reunion**
The meeting between the 14th Doctor and Donna was orchestrated by 'the boss,' leading to their destined reunion. Following 14s Bi Regeneration, They subsequent merge gave rise once more to the entity known as the DoctorDonna. However, this amalgamation caused the 15th Doctor to lose memories of his past incarnations (1-15).
**Timeless Transformation and Parallel Universe**
The 15th Doctor, stripped of TARDIS and memories, underwent a transformation into the Timeless Child. This transformation spawned a parallel universe under the governance of the Division.
**Fugitive Doctor's Evolution and Intervention**
The Fugitive Doctor evolved into the final iteration, rescued from the Division timeline by the 13th Doctor's TARDIS. This intervention, occurring after parting ways with the 13th Doctor on Earth, enabled the Fugitive Doctor to reintegrate into the original timeline, leaving the TARDIS at the Ghost Monument.
**The Discovery and Propulsion to Timeless Destiny**
The discovery of the TARDIS at the Ghost Monument by the 13th Doctor propelled her journey towards becoming the Timeless Child. The emergence of the Division timeline introduced an alternate Master, revealing the Timeless Child's future to the 13th Doctor.
**The Flux and Parallel Parental Separation**
The Flux was designed to conclude the Division universe, with the Fugitive Doctor caught within it. However, this event influenced the 13th Doctor instead, leading to an encounter with Bel and Vindor - the Doctor's parallel parents intentionally separated by the Grand Serpent.
**Fugitive Doctor's Mission and Parallel Encounter**
Following Fugitive's encounter with the 13th Doctor on Earth, she rediscovered the original timeline and returned with a mission to dismantle the Division. In this quest, she encountered her friend Kavanista, Bel, Vindor, and their child - the parallel Doctor who, in the Division universe, never became a Time Lord.
**Ruby's Role and End of the Division Universe**
FugitiveDoctor brought baby Ruby to Ruby Road, initiating a meeting with the 15th Doctor to retrospectively prevent the transformation into the Timeless Child. Instead, Ruby assumed the role, thwarting the creation of the Division universe and bringing its end.
**Renewed Gallifrey and Doctor-Donna's Safeguard**
With the amalgamation of 1-15 Doctor's memories, Ruby embarked on a new life within a fresh universe, emerging at the genesis of a renewed Gallifrey to guide their future away from the previous Time War history. Doctor-Donna, now a permanent entity, safeguards the integrity of the Doctor's original universe within UNIT.
**Doctor Multiverse and Rassilon's Plan**
The Doctor multiverse began when the 11th Doctor absorbed energy through temporal cracks from Rassilon. This was set in motion after the Doctor saved Gallifrey, altering the timeline to prevent the deaths of 11 Doctors at Trenzalore. Subsequently, the 12th Doctor expelled Rassilon from Gallifrey, propelling him to change his identity to The Grand Serpent infiltrating UNIT before a portal during the Flux transported him to a primitive Gallifrey, where his plans unfolded.
**Crucial Division Universe and Ruby's Pivotal Role**
The existence of the Division universe is crucial for the subsequent universe, preventing the erasure of any Doctor's past. This sequence is necessary to steer the 15th Doctor towards becoming the Timeless Child, ultimately paving the way for Ruby's birth within the Division universe. Ruby plays a pivotal role in thwarting the Division itself, creating the next universe.
If we’re counting the master-doctor we have to count 10.5.
The Timeless Children, and the "Morbius Doctors" are not Doctors. They may be the same person, but they did not have the Title: The Doctor. The 1st Doctor was William Hartnell because that is the Incarnation that thought it was their first life, and made the promise to never be cruel or cowardly and took the title: The Doctor. This was a name chosen at The Academy on Gallifrey by that Incarnation of the person we all love. So yes, TC & MD are the same person, but people are not born as Doctors, they become Doctors at some point in life.
Also I think it is pretty clear upon my rewatching of Jodie's entire run that The Fugitive Doctor can easily fit between Doctors 2 & 3, and in fact, this is the ONLY placement that makes any sense at all. To explain: The Timeless Child was experimented on by and indoctrinated into The Division. A Division of the CIA. The Same CIA that convicted the 2nd Doctor of intervention. They could easily have intercepted him on his way to forced regeneration, put back in the TC memories and made them an agent again for a brief time, possibly just for the mission on Atropos, and then that Doctor became a Fugitive, but would eventually be caught, memory re-wiped, and turned into Pertwee/3rd Doc. Why go through these loops/hoops when it is easier to just say this Incarnation is before the 1st Doctor? Because of the TARDIS. The Timeless Child did not have a TARDIS. If anything they might have had a Capsule, but Susan came up with the acronym and it went viral on Gallifrey. The Fugitive Doctor has not just any TARDIS though, she has one stuck looking like a Police Box. The Chameleon circuit was broken by the 1st Doctor so this has to be After that happened. Because if it didn't then the writers are asking us to believe that the Chameleon Circuit was broken TWICE in a row while assuming the same shape in the same time period, which is just stupid. 😅
But the circuit was fixed by the 6th doctor and we don’t know how long the doctor and Susan were living in the junkyard before the event ps of an unearthly child it’s implied that they had been there a while through her teachers Ian and Barbara when they are talking about Susan’s seemingly advanced knowledge and the biggest problem with Ruth being a season 6b doctor is her not knowing what a sonic screwdriver is so that confirms she is pre hartnell cause the sonic screwdriver is something the doctor wouldn’t just forget about having
@@kevin10001 Ugh, another foot in the rear for Chibnall. None of this makes any sense. I swear he forgot about the Chameleon circuit when writing Fugitive of the Judoon. And probably forgot people aren't born Doctors, they become them...
So we are expected to believe that they chose the same name twice, and they had 2 TARDISes that got stuck on the same setting, or Clara managed to point him in the direction of their original TARDIS when he ran off with Susan. Just goofy. I hate things not to make sense or to require stupefying leaps of faith or acceptance of coincidence.
@@R_SENAL The Doctor had his memory wiped, thought he grew up on Gallifrey and then stole a Tardis, but the wipe was not complete, and the Name he chose and the old Tardis he picked were the same ones he had before, the Tardis long had a faulty Chameleon Circuit and defaulted to the Police Box
@@R_SENAL according to Big Finish, yes. In one of the stories the 8th doctor makes a passing comment that he used the secondary control room as the main one 'ages ago when he wore a tricorn hat,' which is a description that fits one of the Morbius Doctors.
@@R_SENAL with chibnall being a classic era fan I’m sure he knew about the circuit working then the show making it not work again cause fans wrote into the show complaining about the tardis being fully functional cause they couldn’t handle the tardis not being a police box also it’s never stated in the show when the doctor adopted the name doctor and it’s safe to assume that Ruth was hiding out of her place in time like David’s doctor did in the family of blood
To me, when the timeless child got their mind wiped and turned back into a baby, they also limited his regenerations because otherwise at some point The Doctor would get to 13, carry on regenerating and then try and find out why, plus having it limited means everything before still works fine.
Cool way to look at it. For me I look at the timeless child is part of all future time lords. To make the Doctor the timeless child makes him to god like. But you could be right too. The one problem with some of what I call glitchs. Is the show really hasn't smoothed it out. See Big finish and comic can try to write their telling of the story. But it can and has happened before. If not show on tv and what you can say given the stamp of approval it not canon. What I'm saying is I wouldn't like it. but you might be right. They need to smooth these things out.
@@williamwheeler7068 Yeah I get you, I like my idea because it still makes The Doctors past mysterious but it also separates The Timeless Child and The Doctor, best way to describe it is, we have Classic Who and New Who, same show but we still call them Classic and New
With The Fugitive Doctor being called Doctor, that’s when it hits a little bump but you can always say they picked the name but still got reset and that’s why the 1st Doctor picked the name Doctor, because it was there deep in the back of his mind
Same way the Moribus Doctors popped up in the mind bending thing, he didn’t know about them but they are still there very very deep in his mind
We believe that in “Listen” Clara meets a young incarnation of The Doctor who is not of the seven Timeless Children. To be fair, counting the known versions is difficult enough, but the true possible number In immeasurable, considering what the Doctor has himself said in various episodes. For example, The Curator’s comment of visiting a few favorite faces. That is a major suggestion of reappearing Doctor incarnations. 10/14 is just proof of concept. And with the new biregeneration, we have doubled the possibilities of regenerations and biregenerations.
The 30+ doctors confirms what's the tardis said about having about 30 archived control rooms
Sexy had archived console rooms from both the past and future, tho.
I hate that timeless child garbage also broke the tardis time line as well since it was no longer the 1st doctor that stole it.
Yeah the TARDIS said those others were future rooms. The doctor told her you cant archive something that hasnt happened yet and she replied "YOU can't".
@@lesigh1749 but just because it’s in his future doesn’t mean theyre not in the past. Past and future are just terms we used to refer to time. But they have no relevance. If you time travel your future and past swap because you past is now your future and your future is now your past.
@@AxelaxiB Actually Timelords are expressly forbidden to travel within their own timestream like that. It's the first law of time. It's also why they don't constantly meet themselves, the TARDIS is designed to avoid it unless specifically overridden by the high council.
39 doctors confirmed. 39 doctors in 60 years.
It's a crazy turnover of Doctors when you think of it, especially with the time off the air as well!
@@thewholook I mean, half of that “turnover of Doctors” is a bunch of jumbled-up silent cameos that only appear in flashbacks for like half a second each.
Are we really putting Unnamed Child Extra #6 and Philip Hinchliffe in a Funny Hat in the same league as Tom Baker and Matt Smith?
I mean, hardly confirmed, I'd certainly debate aspects of what counts as an incarnation here - the Master Doctor shouldn't really count, and I'd argue that per the way incarnation is defined, 10 and "14" are the same incarnation.
@@theoutcastboiI had the same thought about how they should be the same, at first, but 14 Did come "naturally" & chronologically after 13, and obviously has all of her memories (along with 11 & 12), so I think we kind of Have to consider him his own incarnation. especially since his personality is a bit different as well! if only subtly. he just seems more "Mature" and open with himself, and less arrogant, etc. so while he does have the old face, he is still different than 10!
personally, I'm just hoping that calling him the "FourTenth" Doctor might catch on 😂
In 60 years of Whoniverse history, we’ve seen… SO MANY VERSIONS of our favorite time-traveler.
10 regenerated twice. should have counted him twice
I questioned it before recording, forgot to mention it when I got to 10 and now I regret it, although it wasn't a separate incarnation it did use up 1 regeneration cycle so I should've at least mentioned that, I guess I partially did when I spoke of Meta-Crisis though
Doctor moon is a secret incarnation of the Doctor
I think an interesting discussion is how many regenerations the Doctor has left if he only got a new cycle of 12 in Time of the Doctor.
You already got 4 used up, just from the standard regenerations and bigeneration: 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15.
In The Witch's Familiar, Davros stole regeneration energy from Twelve. We have no idea how much was stolen so it is entirely possible a whole regeneration got used up.
Then you got the Master Doctor. Given forced regenerations count (2 > 3 counts) there is no reason one shouldn't have been used up then. But what about when it was reversed? The CyberMaster's regeneration energy was used to fuel the degeneration, so I don't think the degeneration counts, but did the extra regeneration energy used restore the regeneration the Master stole or is it just gone?
So that could be as many as 6 regenerations already used up. And that's before you even get started how the bigeneration works. Did 15 get all the regenerations? Did the regenerations get split between 14 and 15? Is 14 still somehow going to become 15 through timey whimey stuff? Does that need an other regeneration to be used?
Not to mention that Rassilon didn’t even know how much regeneration they gifted him during Time of the Doctor, makes me wonder if they didn’t actually give a new cycle but restored the Doctors timeless child regenerations, which could be endless. Be interesting to see how they deal with it properly in the future.
The conversation between 14 and 15 in the TARDIS explains what happens with 14s future. 15 tells him that he’s better now because 14 got the chance to get better. Implying that 14 will eventually die and be reborn out of the bigeneration through Ncuti
I understood it that way that the Timeless Child had no limit and the limit was set while the Shobogan made themselves to the Time Lord. Than they adjusted the Timeless Child's DNA to be like the Time Lord. So in my opinion for The Doctor the limit was factitious and eventually eliminated.
I do think it is likely the Doctor's regeneration limit was just lifted. But in absence of any definitive answer there is still room for speculation.
Also on the topic of Rassilon not knowing how many regenerations were granted to the Doctor. Given Rassilon himself was a Time Lord founder, surely he knew the Timeless Child? Whether he knows the Doctor is the Timeless Child or not would be a different question, but regardless, Rassilon might know the limit is artificial. Hell in Classic Who it was implied that Rassilon might have have infinite regenerations too, and if you go with expanded universe stuff (before the Timeless Child stuff), than that limit might have been put in by Rassilon himself. After all the Master never says that Tecteun was responsible for the regeneration limit, only that Tecteun cracked the genetic code. So there is certainly enough to speculate Rassilon was simply lying about not knowing to cover up the fact the Doctor no longer has a limit.
If youre going to count the Dream Lord ,i would have counted the Ganger Doctor from The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People
The Fugitive Doctor is the last of the Timeless Doctors, given what were told in Once Upon, TIme and The Timeless Children. Fugitive is the incarnation before Hartnell.
Im surprised you didnt mention the future incarnation implied by the seventh doctor story "Battlefield", aka Merlin. Most of his description is from expanded material tbf though he is established in the show
We don't know which one may have acted like Merlin.
We only know for certain that Hartnell wasn’t the first doctor. And you brought in the prove we know. The most morbid thing about the timeless child is that the Timelords are basically all children of the doctor xD
The Valeyard is described as an amalgamation of the darker sides between tbe 12th and final incarnations, not 13th.
The 10th Doctor is shot by a Dalek in 2005-4.12 The Stolen Earth and regenerates w/o changing the body. So I count this as incarnation 27 and 28. Also the doctor has to regenerate back from the Master Doctor, so I count the 13th doctor as incarnation 31 and 33. So currently I assume there are at least 34 incarnations including the Curator - or better: at least 33 regenerations of The Doctor.
Perhaps it is somehow a philosophical question if the Meta crisis doctor coming from the hand is an incarnation and The above mentioned 10th doctor itself is only incarnation 27, but anyway there is a regeneration and in my opionion that is the point.
Note to myself: I have to refresh my memory about the Morbius Doctors.
Big Finish confirms The Curator is a potential future version of the Doctor. There is a Tom Baker and Colin Baker incarnation, and a Matt Smith incarnation is possibly mentioned
Yes, I hope we see the Curator pop up again in TV in forms of other Doctors. The only problem with Big Finish is that it's basically canon to the show until a showrunner says otherwise. Like RTD just seemingly undoing all of the Toymaker's extra stuff.
I'm pretty sure that they're not incarnations only one curator
He just seems to have the ability to look like any doctor
@@thewholookTechnically wouldn't that make the new series of non cannon since it came first
Not like they're actually is a cannon
And I've seen the latest special. And there's barely even a reference to the first time the doctor met the toy maker Doesn't retcon anything
The doctor just doesn't talk about Anything ever
@@plantainsame2049 it’s actually what the toymaker says rather than what the Doctor says, when he says first game was against 1st doctor, 2nd was this doctor (14) and 3rd would be with the next (14/15) but big finish and comics/novels has had toymaker appear for multiple other times contradicting the line from the episode.
@@thewholook I mean this adventure could be before those Adventures because of time travel He could have forgotten one of those times when his dimension collapsed. I don't know the thousands of excuses
Can't take things characters say face value because characters get things wrong
Seeing as the Doctor now proceeds the formation of the Time Lords/Time Lord society... coupled with knowledge like...
"The oldest and most mighty race in the universe" - 10th Doctor
"The last of that wise and ancient race" - voice from the pocket watch.
"10 Billion years of absolute power! That's what it takes to become truly corrupt" - 6th Doctor
Considering the The Doctor now preceeds the birth of the timelords and outlived them. The doctor is Billions of years old and possibly one of the oldest things in this universe....... so safe to say the incarnations are uncountable.
The first doctor actually being the seventeenth is such a headache
He's still 1st to me, because w/out knowing he had all these other lives he is the one who mad the promise to be a Doctor. People aren't born Doctors, they become Doctors, so WH will always be, IMO, the 1st Doctor.
He's actually just the doctor
Because the Doctor simply does not care
My headcanon is this.
1.1st Doctor is the 1st Doctor
2.2nd didn’t regenerate after war games he did missions for the time lords and got his memory erased and turned into the fugitive Doctor.
3.Fugitive Doctor worked for the division and got erased.
4.Morbius Doctors also did missions for the division and its memory wiped.
5.3rd doctor.
6.4th doctor
7.5th doctor.
8.6th doctor
9.7th doctor
10.8th doctor
11.The War Doctor.
12.The 9th Doctor
13.Tenth Doctor 1
14.tenth Doctor 2
15.11th Doctor
16.12th Doctor
17.13th Doctor
18.14th Doctor and 15th Doctor
19.Curator is who 14 was.
Alright, thank you.
Bro needs more subs
57th doctor being at the 100th aniversary is seeming more likely :O
I think Brendan came after the Morbius doctors but before 1 considering it shows the erasure of the doctors mind there
I would count the Curator as a future incarnation otherwise 14 doesn't make sense. The rest you were wise to exclude. So I would make that 34 Doctors we know of.
wait in the newest episode ruby's mum helped 33 childrens ! did rtd also did the count and used it as a little reference?
That would be a crazy cool reference if he actually did that
So watching the '23 Christmas Special and the number 33 came up a bunch especially with Ruby's mom adopted kids and the whole idea of coincidence. What are the odds that 33 landing on the 15th Doctor here and on Christmas is a coincidence?
10a and 10b are worth counting separately imo
From the red guardian to the curator there are Infinite possibilities
I would rath have me brains blown out than admit the timeless child exists
I always assumed that the Valeyard in retrospect was a manifestation of the Timelord Victorious. If he is after the 12th incarnation (Tennant's 2nd regen) and before the 13th incarnation (Matt Smith) of the first cycle, that sets up for the Timelord Victorious in the Waters of Mars to be just before the regeneration in the End of Time and therefore just before his 13th incarnation.
We know that Victoriousness was in 10, so it will also be in the Metacrisis Doctor. I've always thought that humanized Doctor that can no longer regenerate but might still outlive Rose might eventually become The Valeyard, and with a human's limited memory not remember how this turned out for him and go back and try to take a Doctor's lives from earlier on so he could get more of them. So similar thoughts here, but w/a slightly different variation.
@@R_SENALwoah. yeah I love that hc!
Well for me. Oh yes I get jumped on about this. But for me there are 16. The rest are gitches and the timeless child thing is a joke. Mine are 1st, 2nd, Fugitive, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, war, 9th, 10th, 11th. New cycle 12th, 13th, 15th. then ten more faces no repeats to come. The Curator like one post I read could be the 14th doctor future look. Fuss all you want that is my stand wrong or right that is how I put myself at ease with the show.
There is no version before the first doctor that called themself the doctor. I think the fugitive is either a future or alternate universe doctor
ITS beendet confirmed that Ruth ist a Doctor before William Hartnell.
@@TheForbiddenBackstage english
@@TheJGEdits oh
it´s been confirmed*
I hate Auto-correction
It's neither. It's just the Doctor. But I don't get the problem with that. Hartnell's incarnation had no memories of calling themselves "the Doctor" in the distant past, so he actually chose his name again, for entirely different reasons, as if it were an original choice.
It's like the real story of that woman suffering temporary amnesia and meeting her boyfriend for the first time. She didn't remember him, but she said that he was beautiful, she literally feel in love again (but for the first time) with him.
@@TheForbiddenBackstagewell that’s stupid then. Why is he still called the first doctor if he’s no longer chronologically the first?
I think the curator could be the 14th retired doctor
Or the Bi-generated 4th Doctor
I came to the same conclusion. At some point in the future, 14 gets stuck back in time and accepts his role as Curator from Elizabeth I in the late 16th century. He's regenerates becoming the First Curator, just one of the many past faces returning leading into the version of the Curator we met in The Day of the Doctor.
It's not the curator has a number it's just impossibly high
It's a completely separate thing
Also from my understanding. Eventually, the 14th doctor will die and then wake up splitting off as the 15th. Doctor it's just that time has gone wibbly
This is why the fifteenth doctor seems to be a lot healthier than fourteen was
@@TheForbiddenBackstage That's my theory; and in order to avoid confusion, that Doctor opted to call himself the Curator.
Great video. Keep going!
Thanks! Appreciate it 🙂
think you forgot twelve but i feel as though that’s an obvious placement haha
It's 17.
1-15 + War and Fugitive makes 17.
I just hope that Lulubelle doesn't turn out to be the Doctor as a baby. That Timeless Child stuff needs distance.
Is the 7th doctor confused with Merin from Battle Field? Is it possible there may have been another registration before, say, the first appearance, timeless Merlin? Though the first doctor is the beginning and has got regeneration abilities prior to this time, so is believed,but it could be the first was around in Britain at the time of King Arthur and called himself Merlin and the story is the same that follows? And he thats the reason under the identities the doctor uses when arriving in England medieval times? This is when he first stole the tardis prior to his original adventures. But as we all know, neither his first appearance is explained before that point, and probably his early days on earth won't be televised before. Unearthly, Child.. kind of be interesting if a project like this would be made?
Merlin is After the doctor's time
Probably somewhere between the emperor and the curator
There are 13. No more. No less.
Here's my personal thought well i accept there were regenerations before the first doctor i don't accept any of them as the doctor. Simply put it feels like the point is missed of the name the name was a name that was chosen by the doctor and since we know the fugitive was mind wiped and limits put on there regeneration i find it hard to believe and regeneration before 1 called themselve the doctor.
why is the Timeless child had be the Doctor is odd and his had not seeing and his had keeping thinking of why not even the war Doctor and his own dark part too, why not it was cool too,
To help get rid of that cannon, breaking bullshit of the doctor being just another time lord
They have been Written as a pioneer amongst their own people since before the time lords were even created as a concept
What about the doctor who was presumably a kid who grew up with the master
I feel like if the Master Doctor counts then The Doctor Donna should count.
What about the Rowan Atkinson Doctor? Doctor Who: The Curse of Fatal Death and all those regenerations?
I did think about it for a special mention but decided not to for the same reason I didn't include Cushing, not canon to proper Doctor Who 😂
@@thewholookIs multiple time wars everything is cannon
Peter cushing was a movie in universe
And it's entirely possible that a mister bean looking chunk of doctor split off during the time war
1:40 1:51 3:14
Peter Cushing, Trevor Martin, David Banks!
I am old school Doctor Who having started watching about 1976, so there is nothing before William Hartnell's 1st Doctor!
(before y'all start shouting about the Morbius Doctors, i never believed that any of the 8 shown were actually the Doctor. he suddenly gets all these other past incarnations revealed and you never see Morbius but suddenly the Doctor is able to beat him? Really??)
🤔
How about I bring up the fact that they were planning on having pre? First doctors from the Inception of fucking regeneration
Google it
There's 8 Doctors. Hartnell-McGann. Anything after that doesn't count. It's a different series.
An different series with the same charater. It's sequel sooooo...
We see the regeneration McGann-Hurt "the night of the Doctor" and the first Doctor with Capaldie in "twice upen a time"
Well, look at the transition over from Troughton to Pertwee. I get the strong feeling that some Time Lord shenanigans could have taken place during that sequence - the "What's going on? Stop that! You're making me giddy! No! No!" sequence.
Whilst we were kept busy with our 'Third Doctor' that followed that - as we all recognized him to be at the time - I think some splintering went on there and just as happened at the end of The Five Doctors, with which the Fifth Doctor called "Temporal fission" and the TARDIS pluralized, calving off, each with their individual occupants.
If the Time Lords can do that with a TARDIS, then a singular Time Lord would be no problem whatsoever.
Chris Chibnall COULD have used that as a jumping off point - but didn't - and all this Timeless Child addition and angst could have been avoided. Another case of overwritten, overjargoned and cardboardly characterized. Chris! Four out of ten! - And I'm being generous!
I see the video is six minutes long. I can answer the title question in 6 seconds, there are 14 doctors Capaldi is the last.
There are seven.
Tenth regenerated into himself and so did the 12th
The 12th doesn't do that
Yh he does
@@CMPLXITY07 when?
When bill shoots him
@@CMPLXITY07 no, it was a fake gun, and not a real rengeneration.
Other other;
-Ganger Eleven
I'd have to go with 13 total (including John Hurt) among the cannonical stories. That's all the Doctors prior to the totally retconned, crappy alternate history that was recently invented. Which I'm happy to exclude from the list because I really hate shit writing.
The valeyard is the dream lord
No it isn't same concept different character
THEORIES ABOUT OTHER FORMS OF THE-DOCTOR MIGHT OF BEEN & WHY HE DOESN’T REMEMBER & MORE:
I theorize The-Doctor might have changed ten times, that he doesn’t know about.
Now the reason why he doesn’t know; Is because some of his memories were removed from his mind.
Now the forms he doesn’t remember, I imagine he changed four times as a kid, five times as a young adult, and I imagine the tenth form is the Fugitive-Doctor.
I also imagine when The-Doctor was a young adult, his adoptive mother, feel in love with a healer TimeLord, married him, and had a daughter with him.
So I imagine that daughter, of his adoptive mother, would become his sister, and when she became a mother, of her first child that’s a daughter, she would be his niece.
There for I imagine that The-Doctor, wouldn’t remember anything, about other forms he might of changed into, if some of his memories were removed.
And that includes memories about other family members, and it also includes memories about his niece.
The Valeyard would be a great focus for a Fugitive Doctor spin-off.
Say what you want about the timeless child (I’m not a huge fan but I’ve accepted it) but I’m glad that they thought to canonize the morbius doctors as some of the Doctor’s past lives. It’s a really cool detail that they could have easily skipped over but didn’t, and my favorite part of that whole timeless child thing.
Too many. It’s just getting silly now.
Istg the timeless child annoys me so much that my goal in life will be to show run doctor who to recon that shit
You'll be a f****** laughing stock.
It literally fixed cannon. It wasn't handled well, but you know it fixed that b*******Just another time Lord fanfiction nonsense, which ignores literally everything. But a few lines in the seventies but everyone seems to be obsessed with it
An alternative approach is, that the fugitive is between 2 and 3 in the time where the doctor is working for the CIA. We never see 2 regenerate into 3. Plus we see the First Doctor steal the TARDIS; which is the same one the fugitive Doctor has. Morbius Doctors could also go in this space
but that would create another problem with the 12 regeneration cycle and Matt Smith doctor didn't count Ruth as a regeneration but did count War Doctor and Meta Crisis
I actually have an idea if a future showrunner decided to retcon it but still keep Ruth and Timeless Child stuff intact. I won't go into it too much here as I want to do a video on my idea but the basic of the idea is Doctor ISN'T Timeless Child BUT Timeless Child IS Doctor. I don't imagine anyone will retcon it TBH but if someone decided to make 1st the 1st again its a way
No, Season 6B isn't a thing going solely by what the TV show establishes, and the EU, the sole place that establishes Season 6B as an existing thing, outright establishes the Fugitive Doctor is pre-1 anyway. So no, the Fugitive Doctor isn't between 2 and 3 by any stretch of the imagination.
@@theoutcastboi 6B is unfortunately a thing. I was against it for years, but then Fugitive Doctor and now Big Finish making it a thing, I think we lost the fight. That said, I bought and listened to both BF box sets in the 6B frame and neither said anything about the FD, not sure where you get that is somehow already saying no to the idea. IMO they are laying the groundwork to make it all fit there.
@@thewholook You know, kinda reminds me of how we were all cool with The Doctor being The Other from Lungbarrow, but we all lost it when the TImeless Child was introduced, largely because of The Way in which it wad done IMO. I liked The Other, but hated TC plot, because TO was a Part of what became The Doctor, not the whole of The Doctor.
can someone explain to me the whole master-doctor thing? its been a while since i watched Jodie's run. i dont remember them saying anything about her regenerating into him, and then back to herself? like, what? what did i miss? lol
It's from Power of the Doctor (Jodies final episode) where the master forced a regeneration onto 13 and he took control of the regeneration causing his body to take over, and she went to the Edge of Existence to the manifestations of past incarnations telling her if she passes the Master fully takes over, it's reversed eventually with Jodie taking the body back and the Master restored to his dying body
@@thewholook huh. okay yeah I definitely need a rewatch sometime 😂 apparently I forgot the entire plot of that episode 😅 all I ever see of it these days are gifs of her regen on that cliff lmao
Since the Timeless Child we and the Doctor has found out the Doctor is not limited (and never has been) to 13 ... He wasn't given a new cycle on Trenzalore just given the belief he could regenerate ... Only Gallifreyan Time Lords are limited (deliberately), and he isn't Gallifreyan
Much easier if everyone retcon's the Chibwit era. It's was the worst writing (and production) in the whole Dr Who era. And as for the the new actor, not bothering. My viewership and money i spent on merchandise is obviously not of interest to the BBC anymore. BBC... you are the weakest link... Goodbye.
The Renegade Doctor is nothing more than a giant middle finger to William Hartnell's legacy.
No more than replacing him because Incredibly sick
You know the very fucking reason regeneration was created
The entire contact of regeneration is incredibly disgusting when you remember they created it because they still wanted to make money Instead of ending the show when the main actor was very very ill
How many Doctors? 13 - from Hartnell to Capaldi. None before Hartnell and none after Capaldi. The 12th Doctor was the 13th incarnation, counting the War Doctor, so the show should've ended with his death.
If you want to just count the original life cycle then that ended with Matt Smith, because of the War Doctor, and because 10 regenerated in Journey's End and kept the same face cause of the template in the severed hand. By your definition he should have died in Time of the Doctor with Matt Smith. However, if you watch that story, there is a bit at the end where a whole new cycle is given. So even if we ignore Timelessness potential, this would be just like Borusa promising the Master a whole new life cycle in the 5 Doctors.
If you're gonna be a loser and deny cannon then there's only one doctor
Everything after the 10th planet is just Is absolute ridiculous fan fiction
The timeless child ruined Who. I stopped @12 thank goodness
If you think it ruined a doctor who you don't know shit about doctor who
The idea of the doctor being just another time lord ruined doctor who
But the timeless child was retconned in the Giggle. The Toymaker said he played with the Doctors story
No it wasn't, RTD has said he isn't retconning it.
That wasn’t the timeless child being retconed that could be an explanation for why David’s face returned even though it’s a week but passable explanation
Don't make shit up