Tested: Where Does The Sustain Come From In An Electric Guitar?

แชร์
ฝัง
  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 2.8K

  • @JamesVanderVeen
    @JamesVanderVeen 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5738

    This was a good video on sustain. It could have been longer though.

  • @MetalMan1245
    @MetalMan1245 2 ปีที่แล้ว +876

    This guy's dry humor combined with total willingness to shatter most guitar players' concensuses without even saying a word about it is amazing.

    • @JoshGab-cw3zn
      @JoshGab-cw3zn ปีที่แล้ว +58

      This video triggers the tonewood boomers in the comments lol!

    • @Fausto_4841
      @Fausto_4841 ปีที่แล้ว +20

      i like that he doesn't outwardly put his interpretation of the data into the video. music is so subjective it's hard to say what is better in a lot of situations.

    • @jafersorianocamargo6723
      @jafersorianocamargo6723 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I think the point is that they're not even consensus, right there they're done that think that light finish is better and others that say the exact opposite... Lighter gauges and actions are more determinative in conjunction with good left hands technique but maybe aside the "it's in the fingers" crowd, nobody cares so passionately about gauge and action... We all do, because we need them to pay comfortably, but nobody is so passionate about it as the flight between a vintage SG or the latest fluence...

    • @paulcrowder
      @paulcrowder 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      “…so I did that” 😂 I agree, the humor is as important as the information in these videos.

  • @SashaGarcia
    @SashaGarcia 2 ปีที่แล้ว +852

    This is like "Mythbusters" for guitar, and I am loving it.

    • @JC-11111
      @JC-11111 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      No it isn't 🤣 this dude doesn't even know the basics about guitars. He ain't in ANY position to be tryi g to teach or prove anything to anyone until he learns quite a bit more. He doesn't even know basic information that I knew before I even owned a guitar.

    • @foxredt2
      @foxredt2 2 ปีที่แล้ว +60

      @@JC-11111 troll

    • @TheEchelon
      @TheEchelon 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@foxredt2 Nope, it's a good effort but his doesn't aren't really accurate nor representative.

    • @richsackett3423
      @richsackett3423 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      This video is crap which only vaguely resembles science. His over-earnest chip-on-the-shoulder attitude ain't making up for its serious shortcomings.

    • @iforce2d
      @iforce2d 2 ปีที่แล้ว +17

      @@richsackett3423 what are the shortcomings, exactly?

  • @JustinSmith1287
    @JustinSmith1287 ปีที่แล้ว +424

    "... so I did that" had me rolling. WOW DUDE. The commitment to these tests are just insane.

    • @victorb656
      @victorb656 ปีที่แล้ว +13

      My favorite moments. “That means 3,837 different setups. So I did that.”

  • @tanglewife
    @tanglewife 2 ปีที่แล้ว +625

    Seems like a lot of these myths about tone and sustain relate to acoustic guitar, but don't really carry over to electric in reality, yet have been perpetuated for decades in the musical community. Brilliant, enlightening video, as always!

    • @errollloyd6721
      @errollloyd6721 ปีที่แล้ว +104

      Yes ... this is it ... electrical guitarists have yet to truly embrace the electrical nature of their instrument, even going so far as applying acoustic thinking to electrical components in thinking larger components (eg capacitors) are better than modern smaller ones etc. It's a little sad I think because I think it has kept the industry back and made us all more beholden to the guitar manufacturers as the culture helps perpetuate an illusory magic in any one guitar when really it's mostly about pickups and whether the guitar feels good in your own hands. It should be more normal to get a guitar based just on build quality, shape and neck profile and to then install whatever pickups you like, and, even better, have common guitar designs that allow you to easily change the pickups.

    • @williambartholomew5680
      @williambartholomew5680 ปีที่แล้ว +17

      ​@@errollloyd6721 perfect realization of how one product for life (guitar in this instance) results in the manufacturer not making additional sales off buyers. The only way to ensure sales is to either A "improve upon inferiority" or B offer an "alternative" features list or whole product.
      Ironically guitarists be big suckers to the corporate man they supposedly despise 😅

    • @nef36
      @nef36 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      @@williambartholomew5680 Guitar culture could be a bit more open to the idea of owning, say, a bass, baritone, standard, and a ukelele, or putting value on the cosmetic look of a guitar (we already do that) above what the acoustic qualities of the instrument are, but the first thing requires learning, which is why guitarists don't like the idea of picking up a bass (and vice versa) and the second thing is rooted in hundreds of years of culture and things that are true of acoustics.
      On the other hand, upgrading your guitar for better pickups is something we already do, so there's that.

    • @Carlito_Sway
      @Carlito_Sway ปีที่แล้ว +13

      this is a HUGE part of the source of even well-intentioned guitar industry BS!!! I think there is a lot of conflation of "sound" with "player experience", too. We might perceive that a guitar "resonates" more based on its vibrational characteristics, while in fact there's no audibly perceptible difference to a listener. That doesn't mean we should disregard player experience as an important factor influencing design characteristics- something like neck radius might not influence the sound but it sure feels different to a player! But, it is important to disambiguate the two if we're trying to understand the mechanisms of electric guitar sound generation and reproduction in a scientific way.

    • @adamb2484
      @adamb2484 ปีที่แล้ว +13

      That's the thing! Most, if not all, guitar myths DO apply to an acoustic. Yet next to none have any bearing on an electric, becoming pseudoscience in the process.

  • @stevesoldwedel
    @stevesoldwedel 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1087

    It's really a pleasure to see an empirical approach to what so many people treat like magic.

    • @jralanmorgan
      @jralanmorgan 2 ปีที่แล้ว +24

      I love your phrasing.

    • @chnacr2
      @chnacr2 2 ปีที่แล้ว +78

      If not for the Internet and awesome TH-camrs like Jim, guitar manufacturers would be selling Tone Air in cans by now

    • @slowestjabroni
      @slowestjabroni 2 ปีที่แล้ว +43

      Gearslutz is in shambles right now.

    • @disco4535
      @disco4535 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      Its hilarious seeing comments like these that act like this video "empirically" proves/disproves anything significant. World renowned players that have created worthwhile, unique musical art throughout human history believe things about their guitars and music that you might call think they treat as "magic", that's only because our primitive science can't explain it, or does a comically insufficient job of trying.

    • @Centrifuge28
      @Centrifuge28 2 ปีที่แล้ว +94

      @@disco4535 you're right, that's why we need to only buy $5,000 guitars so that we can have T O A N
      maybe things like the type of wood or the way the neck is attached to the body make a difference in music, but an artist can make art with anything. that's what the comment you replied to is saying. the artist makes it sound good, not the density of the finish or how much money you dropped on your new guitar. also, it's helping people not get sucked into the thought process of "i need to buy this ridiculously expensive piece of wood with magnets and strings to be as good as my heroes"... and as someone who has built their own guitar, i can tell you that many people actually do believe it is magic...

  • @gavinjones3637
    @gavinjones3637 2 ปีที่แล้ว +636

    "So I did that!" Hats off for thoroughness and commitment. Love these videos.

    • @PS-fg3hp
      @PS-fg3hp 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      Yeah, almost spit my coffee on my screen!

    • @joevannucci1392
      @joevannucci1392 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@PS-fg3hp Same here!

    • @kcutoob
      @kcutoob 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      Hah! I also was waiting for the "So, I had to find a plan B". Man, this guy is dedicated. And while it appears he's not a technical guy ("never took a stats class"), these experiments are quite well conceived and implemented, which is not as easy as many would think. I especially liked the wooden dowel saddle - that eliminated any nuances of different alloys in one fell swoop. Well done!

    • @JoelKreider
      @JoelKreider 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      This is the point that got my like…
      Never did I think that would be the next statement.

    • @blueleaftuber
      @blueleaftuber 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      what a Chad

  • @brianframe7949
    @brianframe7949 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    As a builder and repair person, i rate this guy as a national hero.

  • @SirSneakerPimp
    @SirSneakerPimp 2 ปีที่แล้ว +344

    The fact that you put yourself through all of these tests is insane.

    • @chocolatecookie8571
      @chocolatecookie8571 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      He sacrified himself in the name of guitar science 😂

    • @muratsanda7246
      @muratsanda7246 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@chocolatecookie8571 😁

    • @Michael-yt1jp
      @Michael-yt1jp ปีที่แล้ว +2

      The fact that 69 percent of guitar players who watch this and will still choose believe in magic sustain and mystical diodes is insane.

    • @hansmemling2311
      @hansmemling2311 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @Michael-yt1jp indeed. I unfortunately people are religious about most of the things they do. Science has transformed our society completely but religiousness remains.

  • @ralph0808z
    @ralph0808z 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +23

    I'm convinced. I'll never soak my guitar in glue again.
    Kudos to Jim Lill and his "Tested" video series for creating the most interesting guitar content on TH-cam.

  • @keegancurry2593
    @keegancurry2593 2 ปีที่แล้ว +469

    The combination of these 2 videos really makes me think that practically the only things that truly matter to a great sounding guitar are a good pickup and a good setup. And a great player of course!

    • @liamphillips3061
      @liamphillips3061 2 ปีที่แล้ว +42

      Speakers as well, They all do put a unique twist on your sound. Glenn at SMG did a great video about it called what matters most about guitar tone. I really love seeing people get to the bottom of what matters in regards to tone and well made guitars , There is way too much made up stuff floating around.

    • @Fedbo
      @Fedbo 2 ปีที่แล้ว +47

      the thing is, a cheap and not very well constructed guitar (bad mechanics, poor maintenance of the tuning, bad ergonomics (neck not well finished, frets coming out) might sound great with a set up and some expensive pickups, but if it doesn't hold the tuning well and doesn't feel great to play than it's not fullfilling its purpouse.

    • @latheofheaven1017
      @latheofheaven1017 2 ปีที่แล้ว +40

      @@Fedbo Indeed. More expensive guitars do some things better. But this video shows that better sustain isn't necessarily one of them.

    • @stupidjubei
      @stupidjubei 2 ปีที่แล้ว +25

      Changing amp/speakers has long been the most drastic tonal quality changer. I've long believed a cheap (yet adequately built) guitar with a good setup and a decent pup into a nice rig will get you much further than a $3000 dollar custom guitar into a cheap practice amp. There are good practice amps these days, but comparatively speaking.

    • @Pantalooj
      @Pantalooj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      The science seems fairly clear relating to tone. I'm not discounting the other factors that affect the player though ... neck shape and feel, fret size, tuning stability (set up is part of that but not the only thing), body ergonomics ... and aesthetics. I certainly wouldn't discount all of those things when selecting a guitar.

  • @misterknightowlandco
    @misterknightowlandco 2 ปีที่แล้ว +250

    This is going to turn into a series called “everything you know about guitar is wrong” and we’ll all be playing the Jim Lill signature squier bullet telecaster with Seymour Duncan pickups that only costs 249.99…

    • @psyghtseer
      @psyghtseer 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      lol

    • @DigiPal
      @DigiPal 2 ปีที่แล้ว +24

      Makes me think of JHS pedal channel with a video talking about solid state amps and how "bad sounding" they are/were, but the video ironically shows how well sounding they can be, despite their supposed "bad reputation".

    • @cfiyuhbv8rfbebuvrbty
      @cfiyuhbv8rfbebuvrbty 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      this is exactly what we should be doing. If Max Ostro plays Squier, it should be enough for us, too. th-cam.com/video/DFAdNbtimGQ/w-d-xo.html

    • @bassyey
      @bassyey 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@DigiPal Oh I thought that channel are tube snobs and zealots.

    • @drewdavis2392
      @drewdavis2392 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      I'm holding out for the channel to promote with a guitar giveaway. Imagine owning your own Jim Lill Signature chopper Strat with custom finish that uses Jim's secret formula for improved tone and sustain.

  • @andrew6889-p5c
    @andrew6889-p5c 2 ปีที่แล้ว +361

    This series could be used in schools as an applied science class. So freakin’ clear and thorough. And zero time wasted.

    • @michaelvarney.
      @michaelvarney. 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      He would flunk out of an applied science class considering that he does not seem to understand how to properly measure resonance, or at least decay constants, and thinks that ‘only a couple of dB’ is best thought of in a linear manner.

    • @timoheinrich8763
      @timoheinrich8763 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      There is truth in what Michael says. Jim does not know how to analyze data and it shows. He's honest about it and that's good but it would have been better if he had reached out to someone to help him analyze it.
      (Even better: He would have also reached out for help with the data collection.)

    • @TheEchelon
      @TheEchelon 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Pettynyt Ruokailija And the electronics pick up the vibrations of the string, which are influenced by the guitar... You think a guitar with a rubber nut would sound the same or have the same sustain?

    • @wareya
      @wareya 2 ปีที่แล้ว +14

      @@michaelvarney. A drop in decibels over a particular fixed amount of time is just as valid a way of measuring decay as half-life.

    • @michaelvarney.
      @michaelvarney. 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@wareya No, it is not. No one measures resonance in such a manner. Say at time t = 0 you measure 100 dB, then at time 10 seconds you measure 60 dB. What is the decay of the signal? What is it's half life?
      You can't tell.
      What you need to do is sample the signal amplitude at a high resolution between 0 and 10 seconds, and fit the resulting plot and that gives you the decay you are looking for.
      For his signal, he needs to take his waveform and create an envelope curve, and measure the decay of that, calculate tau and see how that changes. Better yet, determine the Q of the system, as that an optimal figure of merit for the system.

  • @tykjpelk
    @tykjpelk 2 ปีที่แล้ว +141

    As a physicist, I find it interesting that the sustain was better with lower tension - with open strings. When the tension is lower the frequency is lower, and that means the string goes through fewer resonance periods in the same time. The Q (quality) factor is an important parameter for a resonator, and it tells you the fraction of power lost in a single period. If the Q factor stays the same but the period increases, you have more sustain.

    • @hansmemling2311
      @hansmemling2311 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +17

      I would love it if physicists and scientists started dong tests on instruments. I bet lots of myths or misconceptions could be destroyed.

    • @AlCleveland
      @AlCleveland 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      What about the composition and/or quality of the string itself? Can an isolated string in a “dead”acoustic environment exhibit self generated sustain?

    • @tykjpelk
      @tykjpelk 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@AlCleveland Well, a string that has a lot of "friction" if you will call it that, i.e. loses vibration every to heating, will have worse sustain even attached to a diamond guitar in a vacuum or something silly like that. We can imagine a string made from one long crystal played near absolute zero, but of course it wouldn't be very practical. The tuning forks in quartz watches are nice though.

    • @kentl7228
      @kentl7228 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Too light or too tight a tension would be detrimental to keep the string in motion for longer?

    • @user-bl3si3kq6x
      @user-bl3si3kq6x 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Wouldn't the string with higher tension(more mass at same tuning) have a harder time moving?
      Seems like basic physics.

  • @NoContextOasis
    @NoContextOasis 2 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    I fucking love this guy man. I can hear the cork sniffers sharpening their pitchforks.

  • @TheEnderBand
    @TheEnderBand 2 ปีที่แล้ว +104

    These make me so happy because it just confirms that as long as a guitar is built properly and the pickups are ok, there’s no reason it can’t be a usable sound

    • @flachmann161
      @flachmann161 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      True. I finally stopped wasting money on "tonewood" bullshit or new fancy pickups. What really matters is the speaker

    • @ot4kon
      @ot4kon ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@flachmann161 nah they are really old bad pickups from the 90s and 2000s era when there was no middle ground just great expensive guitars and cheap crap, but true, mostly all the new cheap guitars and all the epi and squiers come with ok, usable Pickups.

    • @221b-l3t
      @221b-l3t 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@ot4kon Yes I have pickups like that, they truly suck. It doesn't mean you need Aeymour Duncans or original PAFs you stole from Joe Bonamassa but just decently made pickups. Epiphones from the early 2000s had pretty sucky ones. Alnico Classic. I ordered some Tonerider Alnico 2 Classics, with high hopes. In demos they sound as nice as original PAFs at half the cost of name brand stuff (still a lot of money for two magnets wrapped in copper wire).

  • @UncleWalter1
    @UncleWalter1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +419

    Interesting. Makes me think that perhaps the higher perceived sustain on a Les Paul vs a Tele might be the fact that the Les Pauls will tend to have higher output pickups, causing the amp to break up more easily.

    • @CarlyonProduction
      @CarlyonProduction 2 ปีที่แล้ว +44

      This has always been at least part of the puzzle. Back before we had such a plethora of pedals, people liked using les Paul’s to drive their Marshall’s for exactly this reason.

    • @McSlobo
      @McSlobo 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Well, you can test this by using similar pickups. There are humbucker T-style guitars but dunno if there's an LP with T-style pickups (that would be interesting). I would guess the LP-style guitars are usually more expensive (glued on neck, carved top etc.) and therefore probably better made because why waste the extra effort (well, there are bolt-on LPs with flat top too). Might be something as simple as sloppily filed nut (why bother if it's a cheap guitar, right). I actually have a T-style guitar (RRP around $1000) with a humbucker and with simple ear test there's no difference to my LP-style guitar (RRP $2000). Fine, it has '59 while the LP has Pearly Gates and they have a bit different pots and caps. Didn't set up a DAW for this. Noo, I didn't pay the full price, both guitars were on some crazy summer sale and are awesome. I hope I could play to be worthy to them. Cheers.

    • @TheMaxKids
      @TheMaxKids 2 ปีที่แล้ว +26

      The longest sustained note I’ve ever heard was in the song “Machine Gun” by Hendrix. And that was a strat with a bolt-on neck.
      Oh yeah, fully cooking Plexi too.

    • @KelticKabukiGirl
      @KelticKabukiGirl 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@TheMaxKids I can hold a note for a couple minutes. Just get a good comp, high gain and especially an early Muff Style or Swollen Pickle and keep the note trilling slowly

    • @bartelvandervelden9894
      @bartelvandervelden9894 2 ปีที่แล้ว +22

      @@KelticKabukiGirl if you keep trilling the note slowly, you're changing the pitch (slightly) and constantly adding/releasing tension, meaning you basically add new vibrations. Point of sustain is that you aren't manipulating the strings. But in a practical sense, this doesn't really matter: you got some long notes in your sleeve and that's all that matters in a musical sense

  • @latheofheaven1017
    @latheofheaven1017 2 ปีที่แล้ว +160

    It's always struck me that keeping the energy of a vibrating string in the string is the best way to sustain the vibration. Taking a significant part of that energy and using it to make other things vibrate means the string doesn't have that energy any more.
    But then I'm just another person with a half-baked understanding of physics having an opinion. What we need is tests. Thanks Jim Lill for providing them.

    • @jackgreenwood1817
      @jackgreenwood1817 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      I would agree with you on this 👍

    • @mark78750
      @mark78750 2 ปีที่แล้ว +40

      Your point of view makes sense. When people go on about having a resonant electric guitar, they are saying that losing string energy to the guitar body is a good thing. That doesn’t make sense, especially if you are looking for good sustain.
      The whole thing about how if an electric guitar sounds good acoustically it will sound good plugged in is ridiculous. That’s an Eric Johnsonism that gets repeated endlessly. It’s nonsense.

    • @latheofheaven1017
      @latheofheaven1017 2 ปีที่แล้ว +34

      @@mark78750 With acoustic guitars, you want to transfer that vibration into the body and for the body to resonate, because the body is doing the amplifying. But with electric guitar you don't use the body to amplify. You're using the amplifier for that!

    • @carlosclaptrix
      @carlosclaptrix 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      I think that’s right for an electric guitar. Acoustic guitars have to transform the vibration into air movement, so that’s a completely different situation.

    • @joshuasox
      @joshuasox 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      I literally had the same epiphany while watching the video. Seems to me the more insulated the string the more vibration it would keep. I also understand the quiet resonance test winning out. Works the same way as cold water heating faster than hot. The string warbling heavily causes it to loose it's vibration quicker than say a medium to light stroke. So while you would see a louder sound from a heavier stroke it would also suffer the most sustain loss of volume.

  • @jtobrien_
    @jtobrien_ 2 ปีที่แล้ว +151

    I’m fatter after covid and my general sustain in each of my guitars is by far better…
    When I was less soft, things had less resonance for sure.
    You and your studies are incredible! Stay Awesome

    • @simonlinser8286
      @simonlinser8286 2 ปีที่แล้ว +35

      wait are you saying skinny people pick up more resonance from the guitar against their hip bone and ribs, meaning that if you got more fat for the guitar to rest against you will get more sustain. i think you're on to something here.

    • @W4TSKY
      @W4TSKY 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@simonlinser8286 It honestly... makes sense

    • @ButterDawgDawgWitDaBudda
      @ButterDawgDawgWitDaBudda ปีที่แล้ว +15

      @@simonlinser8286 I will try to document this experiment when I buy my next tonehuman

    • @michaelsnydermusic
      @michaelsnydermusic ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Resonance and sustain are two different things though. Sustain of course refers to the length of time a note or sound rings out and the decay of said note. Resonance has to do with the frequency oscillation of an object along with said sound making it louder and more rich. Put your guitar (bass is even better) against a wall (unplugged to remove the speaker agitating the pickups) and it resonates like an amplifier making the sound bass heavy and rich. But your note will not last longer. Your body is essentially doing the same thing.

    • @AizaakThurston
      @AizaakThurston ปีที่แล้ว +4

      ohh dang. I'm always trying to find an upside to being fatter since that happened to me too

  • @EthanMckennaMusic
    @EthanMckennaMusic 2 ปีที่แล้ว +33

    You are epic. What a service to the guitar community

  • @Chord_The_Seeker
    @Chord_The_Seeker 2 ปีที่แล้ว +117

    One thing that always cracks me up about sustain is when guitarists say, “Listen to the sustain on this guitar!”, and then apply vibrato to the string the whole time. If you’re physically manipulating the string the whole time it’s going to keep producing sound. To me sustain is best tested the way you did it the first time in this video, by simply strumming the strings, and then letting them ring, and measuring the decay of the output level of the resulting sound.

    • @mallninja9805
      @mallninja9805 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Every guitar player knows that _tremolo_ is when you change the notes pitch!!

    • @nesicus
      @nesicus 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      @@JeighNeither Check your sarcasm detector.

    • @michaelsullivan8934
      @michaelsullivan8934 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      Also, the idea that sustain is such an important quality in an instrument. Some people use it interchangeably with “resonance” or “clarity”, but sustain as just the length of time a note takes to decay has never really seemed that crucial to me. How often are you going to strike a note and let it hang there for 30 seconds? Good but slots, bridge saddles, and fret-dressing should be the first priorities for pretty much any aspect of how a guitar sounds.

    • @bomzhiha-s-kurskogo-vokzala
      @bomzhiha-s-kurskogo-vokzala 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      3 types of tremolo:
      1. Fast right hand technique
      2. Strat floating bridge
      3. Pedal/Amp FX with repetative volume drops.
      Don't know why, but this is fun 😆

    • @FacePomagranate
      @FacePomagranate 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bomzhiha-s-kurskogo-vokzala There's also a 4th type which is essentially a trill between notes that are more than a step apart.

  • @rickthomas393
    @rickthomas393 2 ปีที่แล้ว +56

    Jim, IMHO you are emerging as TH-cam’s premiere guitar assumptions tester, using an empirical approach.
    In a college philosophy Epistemology class decades ago (how do we ‘know’ things?) I learned there 4 main ways:
    1) Authority (I can’t see atoms but I accept physicists work, etc.)
    2) Belief. (flimsy, or no repeatable evidence but I believe it to be true, anyway.)
    3) Reason. (Logic proves how I know this (if A =B & B=C, then A=C, etc.)
    4) Empirical. ( I know it because it has been tested reputably, and can be repeated by anyone who puts in the equal effort.)
    You are part of the great
    Empirical tradition of science, Jim! Keep it up!!

  • @RohannvanRensburg
    @RohannvanRensburg 2 ปีที่แล้ว +82

    I appreciate you asking down to earth questions and especially approaching it humbly rather than smugly, which videos like this too often do.

    • @meriwoo7382
      @meriwoo7382 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      idk the last segment of what actually affects sustain was pretty smug

    • @JMD501
      @JMD501 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      ​@@meriwoo7382 but at that point he already proved his theory. If you do the hard work, then you can be a little smug.

  • @avjake
    @avjake 2 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    The Edge used an Infinite Guitar, built by Michael Brook, on the album version of With or Without You, but used an EBow on tour to play the song. In case anyone was wondering.

  • @nickx1754
    @nickx1754 2 ปีที่แล้ว +37

    The amount of effort you put into this video...man, you've got yourself another subscriber. Excellent work!

  • @good_king_guitarman1334
    @good_king_guitarman1334 2 ปีที่แล้ว +96

    Jim you've broken the mould. You are making the best guitar videos on YT i've seen in years, congratulations on a job well done.

    • @dedompler
      @dedompler 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      had a feeling it'd be a player turned maker

  • @wonicles
    @wonicles 2 ปีที่แล้ว +102

    I still remember my first electric guitar, and I was a beginner player. It was a red Lotus strat copy, with a beginner Crate amp. I never thought it sounded very good. I could play chords and stuff, but not much else at that time. Then my friend's older brother's bands lead guitar player picked it up once. It was amazing how good the guitar sounded. How the notes rang out. That changed my perspective on instruments that day. A great player can make most anything sound good. Don't buy in to the mystery bull. Buy and use guitars that you like, and that sound good to you. Simple as that. Jim proves this whole story IMO at the end of the video, taking that glued up drilled strat copy, and making it sound good. Great work on this video, and the last.

    • @flouisbailey
      @flouisbailey 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Dedicated musical scientist👍

    • @JohannDowa
      @JohannDowa 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Exactly.. took me awhile to learn this... i started with a cheap $99 guitar given to me, I stunk on, eventually I bought a $1,000 strat and left the cheap guitar for years... one day I decided to sell that guitar for $50, and the guy that bought it, well he played it amazing when testing it out and I was like... wow it's actually a decent guitar.

    • @fspieler
      @fspieler 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      had the same experience with my mim strat

    • @StreetForged
      @StreetForged 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      90% of the guitars sound comes from the pickups. Most of the other differences come down to looks and playability, with expensive guitars having smoother, more playable necks that generally can tolerate lower actions better.
      I mainly play a Les Paul, but the string tension is lower than a lot of other guitars due to the shorter scale length, which can cause some issues with more complicated passages that employ tremolo picking. It feels like when I play my strat or Ibanez guitars, I can more easily play complex riffs, while the Les Paul feels a bit more effortless in note fretting and bluesy styles of music that aren't as technically demanding.
      There have been occasions where I've used friends very expensive and well set up guitars, and it instantly feels like I've gained a year of experience and everything becomes easier to play. Any guitar can sound decent, but there can also be a pretty clear contrast between them, especially comparing beginner sub 200 dollar guitars to guitars in the 500+ range. After 1000 dollars there really isn't much to gain from spending more other than frills

    • @SleepscapeSerenity
      @SleepscapeSerenity 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons, when bart gets a new electric guitar but thinks it broken, then Otto picks it up and shreds

  • @tonybrijeski4912
    @tonybrijeski4912 2 ปีที่แล้ว +39

    Jim Lill - The Electric Guitar Scientist - love it. Keep em coming. Intelligent debate supported by test data is always welcomed. Just downloaded the spreadsheet and will be looking at it. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

  • @bumpty9830
    @bumpty9830 2 ปีที่แล้ว +56

    *Love* your methodical approach! Hope you keep doing tests like this.
    "I've never taken a statistics class..."
    I took _one_ in college, got a C. I'm no expert either. Later as a practicing engineer, when I wanted to understand the statistics to analyze experiments, specifically, I was recommended a textbook called "Statistics for Experimenters" (by Box, Hunter and Hunter) and I _highly_ recommend it. The fact that you made that spreadsheet makes it pretty clear to me that you'd appreciate the contents. The fundamental idea is to design the experiment around the data you're hoping to extract, and the book provides the (fairly minimal) math & statistics required to get the most data out of the smallest number of data points. So you either save yourself time doing the tests, or you get more data for the same effort (compared to doing an off-the-cuff experimental design). Now, the method does rely on quantifying results, which won't always be possible in an obvious way. (Exactly how similar or different, as a number, are any two tone samples, for example?) But when it is possible (e.g. how long is the sustain?), it's quite beautiful.
    If you're curious, but not quite curious enough to buy a textbook, you might look up "factorial design," which is one of the methods taught in the book. There's not a huge amount of TH-cam content on the subject, but this short video discusses the basic idea: th-cam.com/video/GGvuacZb-AQ/w-d-xo.html
    I would also be happy to help you design an experiment to get a feel for the method.

    • @DanielJacksonisbiggerinside
      @DanielJacksonisbiggerinside ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I love textbook recommendations like this ... Except that the books always cost so much... 😆

    • @jamescerone
      @jamescerone ปีที่แล้ว +1

      He’s joking. He’s taken statistics classes

    • @Fausto_4841
      @Fausto_4841 ปีที่แล้ว

      "NERD!"

    • @colemadden5147
      @colemadden5147 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Design of experiments. Took it as an engineer in school. Crazy stuff

  • @pwhite102
    @pwhite102 2 ปีที่แล้ว +71

    I love how the results are basically "play what you like, get it set up correctly, and little things makes little differences (and it's fine if you get nerdy)"
    That being said, I think you'd do a great job experimenting with caps, pots, pickups, and amps. Things that are less superstitious but still a bit overblown

    • @221b-l3t
      @221b-l3t 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Well yes that's why I need 6 Les Pauls, gotta compare 50s wiring to regular and 6 kinds of PAFs! The magnet type seems to have a fair amount of influence. So an Alnico 2 vs an Alnico 4 might be a bigger difference than two decently made pickups with the same magnet. There's a few companies that make high quality pickups with less of a magic sauce premium like Iron Gear and Tonerider. I ordered some of the latter. They sound really nice and 50 bucks a piece seems fair enough for something made with the ambition to actually match the construction of an original. After that copper is copper Alnico 4 is Alnico 4. Doesn't really matter if Seymour Duncan or GFS bought from the supplier and put it together. In fact if the Toneriders do sound like they do in some demos they will sound better and closer to the original than the SD 59, which would be nice. But it's not like turning up the treble on the amp doesn't fix it but that doesn't count!!!

    • @pwhite102
      @pwhite102 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@221b-l3t And I'd watch that video for sure!

  • @daleturner3507
    @daleturner3507 2 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Always love hearing the old sustain comments! I’ve got 12 guitars from different brands ranging from $50 to $1700. Never once have I said I love this guitar it just doesn’t have sustain! Great video look forward to more!

    • @orlock20
      @orlock20 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Because the number of songs with over 10,000 views on TH-cam that have a guitar note hold for 8+ seconds is probably zero. Even four second notes are rare. However, many players don't like sustain and palm mute their guitar.

  • @joeemenaker
    @joeemenaker 2 ปีที่แล้ว +34

    4:30 As shown here, overdrive (and distortion) are, inherently, compressors (with super-high compression ratio)

    • @evanmargol3408
      @evanmargol3408 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      That's sort of true but not really. There are no compressors with infinitely fast attack and release times. Sure limiters try but still do not have infinitely fast release times. Only clipping and saturation do. Thus guitar amplifiers and clipping/saturation processors.

  • @LaminatorX
    @LaminatorX 2 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    Between the lines here: String gages. Low E dramatically out sustains High E across the board, and it makes sense. More mass = More momentum, and the surface area increases at the square of radius while volume & mass increase at the cube - so increasing momentum overtakes increasing air resistance.
    Open question then around smaller differences. How big a difference in sustain is there between a .09 and a .11 E string? I'd also love to see a test like this comparing different string types. Bare vs wound, flat wounds, coated, etc.

  • @acook213
    @acook213 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    I love how he used his guitar as a cutting board for the wooden dowel

    • @robinleebraun7739
      @robinleebraun7739 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thinking of building a guitar out of a cutting board.

  • @robertmenzies3032
    @robertmenzies3032 2 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    Your videos are really great and have inspired me with my own guitar choices. Forget buying highly expensive guitars I have bought a budget one, got it set up well, changed the pick-up and had them set to a hight of my preference. Personally think I now have a guitar that sounds like one double the cost and with the tone and playability I really like. Thanks so much

    • @matthewburrows8851
      @matthewburrows8851 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      This 👆🏼

    • @gentelmanjunkie542
      @gentelmanjunkie542 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Word. Just bought a Indo Retro that I'm gonna upgrade the electronics on, give it a set up overhaul and refinish refinish the wood and trim the headstock to look just like a vintage Telecaster and and save 10k.

  • @TamierTheRocker
    @TamierTheRocker 2 ปีที่แล้ว +25

    He put his own guitars through so much for science. The real research nobody was ready to do. Thank you.
    Now I'm sure I don't need a heavy guitar for it to sustain good

    • @TheMemagNeman
      @TheMemagNeman 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Actually this guy does this for quite some time. There are even videos with "tonewoods" and other tests. Quite popular as well.
      th-cam.com/channels/yaStghQb7_e51PgH8bUkzg.html

  • @walterkersting6238
    @walterkersting6238 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I like how he entertains each idea without implying that the idea is stupid and then proceeds to give it a try. There doesn’t seem to be a hint of prejudice against the idea or even stupider ideas.

    • @knotwilg3596
      @knotwilg3596 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Sometimes there's a glint in the eye when uttering the most ridiculous beliefs. But that may be (again) the eye of the beholder.

  • @RockerBug17
    @RockerBug17 2 ปีที่แล้ว +207

    I appreciate all the effort you've put into testing long held, and inaccurate, beliefs in the electric guitar world.
    Strings, pickups, and signal processors are the most important parts of an electric guitar signal chain, period.

    • @laaaliiiluuu
      @laaaliiiluuu 2 ปีที่แล้ว +19

      And I would add a correct setup of the guitar as he showed in the video (string height, condition of the bridge, nut, frets, etc.)

    • @matias20081
      @matias20081 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Scale length?

    • @CyclesAreSingularities
      @CyclesAreSingularities 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      @@laaaliiiluuu yes but that's only really gonna only gonna make a difference when it's a problem. fret buzz or dead strings for example are critical errors in the condition of a guitar. a dead string can't properly produce all the harmonics and string buzz will destroy sustain and introduce a wierd buzzing sound.
      so yes proper setup will sound different then inproper setup but 2 different proper setups are not gonna do much

    • @alphagt62
      @alphagt62 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Getting your electronics right is most important, but that doesn’t mean wood and construction is not important.

    • @happyhell1
      @happyhell1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +23

      @@alphagt62 - did you see the last video where the wood and construction were proven meaningless?

  • @Bova13
    @Bova13 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    YOU ARE SOOOO CRAZY!!! And I am so glad you are and are running this tests. I've learn more about tone in the couple of hours I have watching your videos, than in my 30 years as a guitar player and musician. Thanx, man!

  • @86Sporty58
    @86Sporty58 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    So now there is nothing to talk about at the guitar store! I love this. Thanx

  • @jakestewartmusic
    @jakestewartmusic 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Love this so much! I've never understood the obsession with sustain for guitar players.
    Certainly some guitars have differing levels of sustain, but I've always felt like the differences in acoustic sustain caused by different bridge materials, break angles, etc were negligible compared to the effects of compression, overdrive, and volume created by pedals and the amp, and the resulting feedback of the setup as a whole. When I think of sustain, most of the tones that come to mind eventually blossom into feedback and they all had insanely loud amps, fuzz pedals, etc added into the mix to get there.

  • @TheTapeFarm
    @TheTapeFarm 2 ปีที่แล้ว +97

    This is awesome. Thanks for showing these myths to be what they are… marketing nonsense. I have Danelectro guitars made of Masonite with pickups made by wrapping wire around a tape covered bar magnet and shoved into two halve of a lipstick case and a bridge made out of a hunk of wood…. guess what? They sound great. What an electric guitar is made of matters far less than how it’s made, and more importantly how it’s set up and ultimately played.

    • @Syclone0044
      @Syclone0044 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Masonite and a tape covered magnet shoved into a lipstick case 😂 I love it

    • @adambrown5172
      @adambrown5172 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      His data showed differences in all tests

  • @zhangke1350
    @zhangke1350 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I was so surprised at 3:40 that he actually did all the combinations. Respect!!!

  • @torta2012
    @torta2012 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    MAN YOU ARE EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT! and you're videos are beyond intelligently made. You get everything down to a science. You will excell in life if you are focused. I wish you worked for me in my Mortgage company

  • @scotthayd
    @scotthayd 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Science is awesome! Thanks for doing science on things that I have questions about.

  • @toni.santiago
    @toni.santiago 2 ปีที่แล้ว +56

    As a physicist, i would say that two major things that can affect the sound of an ELECTRIC guitar in general, including the sustain as well, have to do with how the sound is produced and captured in the first place. And these two things are the strings and the pickups. Its all about electromagnetism. All the things involved in this factors, like the string material, tension etc, and the pickup resistance, magnet type, etc, and how this signal is produced and recorded. And i agree when you said about the amp relevance. Even if you flip the tone knob in half, it can affect the sustain

    • @g4guitarpenrith
      @g4guitarpenrith 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      He has another video exploring all of that. It's a great watch.

    • @valueofnothing2487
      @valueofnothing2487 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      Unfortunately he isn't using a picking machine so all his observations are irrelevant.

    • @g4guitarpenrith
      @g4guitarpenrith 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@valueofnothing2487 yeah, would have been even better with that

    • @LaminatorX
      @LaminatorX 2 ปีที่แล้ว +19

      Not irrelevant,@@valueofnothing2487 , just variable between samples. He only shows each vartation once in the video, but he mentions taking multiple samples and averaging the results.

    • @anttihuovilainen1653
      @anttihuovilainen1653 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      As an EE, I'll say that the pickup only has effect on sustain by either robbing the strings of energy (having it too close to the strings) and by how much it emphasizes the high frequencies that are more present in the attack transient compared to the decaying part of the note. The latter is much of the reason people think that humbuckers "sustain more", where your typical humbucker simply emphasizes the attack less. If you were to compare the volume at one second vs five seconds, the difference between single coils and humbuckers would be close to zero.

  • @bluglass7819
    @bluglass7819 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I build and do little experiments to answer my own questions sometimes. These videos have been super interesting to me.

  • @gravitationalconstant
    @gravitationalconstant 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    "So I did that." Holy cow dude! Respect.

  • @calansvc
    @calansvc 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    These videos are a lot of fun, and also informative. But the subtle wit and humor is the icing on the cake. Well done.

  • @garyjohnstonemusic
    @garyjohnstonemusic 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    These videos are amazing Jim. Through pure experimentation alone (not withstanding your own insane knowledge of craftsmanship and musical ability) you're discounting all this marketing we're fed as to what makes a great player. The attention to detail in your videos is insane and will save a lot of people like myself a lot of money when they realise tone is (mostly) in the fingers. You're a world class player but it's also really cool that you don't use these videos to showcase that, just to demo the gear. The air gtr vid blew my mind.

  • @justinpaquette224
    @justinpaquette224 2 ปีที่แล้ว +64

    The most important factors for sustain are, good fret work, well cut nut, good functioning bridge, high enough action, new strings

    • @Broganshire
      @Broganshire 2 ปีที่แล้ว +12

      and the way you play lol

    • @iancombs857
      @iancombs857 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Neck relief can have a surprising impact on attack and sustain as well. Loosen your truss rod and play a note, then tighten it a bit and play it. I THINK what’s happening there is the neck is chewing up some energy by bowing a little when the string is struck. If you can keep the neck as practicably straight as possible, I think you stand your best chance at getting the least amount of loss there as is possible.

    • @TexanUSMC8089
      @TexanUSMC8089 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      How much does the nut come into play when you have a string fretted? When you play a chord, some of the strings may be open, but not when playing a note on a string that's pressed against a fret.

    • @sirporkrib7643
      @sirporkrib7643 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Weight definitely acts as a huge factor, when the weight is below a certain threshold. The "air guitar" is actually infinite weight, it will pretty much be the same as a 8lb or 6lb guitar. But how about 0.5lb? It simplely won't sustain long. 0.5lb hollowbody guitar? That would be even worse.
      It's all about how much energy is being taken by the guitar. Very simple physics. For solidbody above 5lb, effectively no energy is taken by the guitar, so in real life, the guitar itself won't really affect your sustain.

    • @sirporkrib7643
      @sirporkrib7643 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      And that's proven by the 8:48 part of the video. When the resonant dresser took away quite a lot of energy, single note sustain saw a difference of 4db, which is huge. 4db is almost 3 times of power ratio.

  • @twasdl
    @twasdl 2 ปีที่แล้ว +33

    As a kid when I wanted more sustain with an electric guitar, I upgraded to a better pickup and amp. I’d love to see these tone and sustain videos with acoustic guitars.

    • @briansanchez9899
      @briansanchez9899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +14

      Most of the tone wood mythology and all the other magic stuff that people believe does apply to acustica instruments, so I'm guessing that it will be the opposite of this videos.

    • @Ottophil
      @Ottophil 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      When I wanted more sustain i just picked again

    • @Michael-dx8qz
      @Michael-dx8qz 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@briansanchez9899 yep, acoustic guitar actually uses the guitar itself to make sound, whereas the heavy lifting comes from the amp with electric guitar

    • @DrMurdercock
      @DrMurdercock 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Ottophil yeah, i never really understood the whole sustain thing. LIke, why lol. Maybe i just dont play the right style, but sustain has never had any effect on anything ive played on an electric guitar through a hi gain tube amp

  • @alsilverman5084
    @alsilverman5084 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Outstanding work Jim! You can call these segments “Guitar Science”

  • @balint.palace
    @balint.palace ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Your findings (and methodology) create a whole new foundation for guitarists. These pieces of information should be taught in guitar classes. Huge respect

  • @420Gold
    @420Gold 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    I’ve always wondered if how I hold and move the guitar affects the sustain. It would make sense that how you move the guitar after picking a note could effect how the string vibrates, and how long it vibrates.
    And also any airflow/wind could also make a difference in certain settings.

  • @Lebron069
    @Lebron069 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Great video man. I'd love to see a test on why semi hollow guitars sound different in comparison to a solid body.

    • @markmallinder7618
      @markmallinder7618 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Very good point! I doubt that putting a strat pickup under the strings of a steel string acoustic would make it sound like a strat?

  • @RichWhiteley
    @RichWhiteley 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    These vids are amazing. And the best takeaway lesson I'm getting, is quit cork sniffing and just pick up your guitar and practice/play/make music. And yes, pickups, setup, and strings probably matter the most. Love it, thanks for all your hard work putting these together!

  • @m0nzderr1
    @m0nzderr1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +131

    Decibels are already in a logarithmic scale, so 3db difference at 25db, at 10db or at 0db, is still the same 3db! Which is already quite a lot - it's about 50% change in the signal amplitude. Even 1db change (~20%) can be perceived by many people (I'm sure - every guitarist will be able at least to feel that change when playing). As one of the possible ways to have a better picture, I'd suggest, to consider another metric: the time of decay. I.e., compare the time it takes for the level to drop by some fixed ratio, like 10db.

    • @Harmonic14
      @Harmonic14 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      While that might make a better picture for some, fixing the dB drop instead of the time is just a different way of obtaining the same information.

    • @AlmostSickBoy
      @AlmostSickBoy 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Ты понимаешь что он струны своей рукой вводит в резонанс? Не роботом с постоянным усилием, а рукой.

    • @m0nzderr1
      @m0nzderr1 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@AlmostSickBoy Понимаю. Мы же не амплитуду меряем а коефициент затухания, т.е отношение между начальной и конечной амплитудой. При не сильном ударе по струнам и на клине (т.е. при достаточно линейнонй характеристике всего хоз-ва), это отношение слабо зависит от начального усилия.

    • @edgarmatias
      @edgarmatias 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@rajeev-vikram-singh Semitones are logarithms, as are the other intervals. People may have trouble thinking in logs, but they can perceive them naturally (all music).

    • @NMPshadow
      @NMPshadow 2 ปีที่แล้ว +20

      there is a simple reason, why we use the log scale for sound. We hear it this way. We are able to hear very well at 40dB and also at 100dB, if we used a linear scale for the actual sound pressure, it would extend over many orders of magnitude.
      Also 3dB at high dBs is definitely not the same as at low dBs, thats the whole point of dB! The difference between 15dB and 12dB is (1.12e-4 Pa - 8e-5 Pa = 3.2 μPa) while 103dB vs 100dB is (2.8 Pa - 2 Pa = 0.8 Pa).
      And saying that 1dB change can be perceived by many people is a bold statement. I gave lessons in acoustics (physics, not music) and even getting a stable signal with a variance less than 2dB in a classroom is kinda impossible. (Good luck trying that with a guitar)

  • @JBCavern
    @JBCavern ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is my first time here and as a non-guitar player, this was really impressive to have this explained.

  • @33114567
    @33114567 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    There is more science in these videos than in many published papers in academic journals. Keep it up mate!

    • @brodavidb
      @brodavidb 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      And in public schools.

  • @duanevigue1603
    @duanevigue1603 2 ปีที่แล้ว +80

    Guitar players have a hard-on for words like "sustain" and "tonewood". Like you showed, the fact of the matter is, when it comes to electric guitars, the type of wood, its thickness, body size and shape, etc., etc., etc., have little to nothing to do with these mythical words. Electric guitars and the sounds they make are determined by the player and their amp. Thats it.

    • @spadestight6308
      @spadestight6308 2 ปีที่แล้ว +24

      Pickups too but yeah that’s about it

    • @designator7402
      @designator7402 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      @@spadestight6308 Pickups and the electrics of the guitar. If you run everything through a passive low-pass it's going to sound different :P

    • @mk_rexx
      @mk_rexx 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      The sound chain is basically the player->strings->pickup->electronics->amp.

    • @m0002856
      @m0002856 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Pmuch this.
      I remember almost getting caught up in the specifics of the tone wood and all of that nonsense when I was younger.
      And then I used my brain and started doing some testing LOL
      The way I look at it, those "mythical words" you mentioned definitely can matter, but not for the actual quality of the sound being produced. If you're buying a Mahogany guitar because it's supposed to magically sound better, you're being scammed. BUT if you're buying a specific guitar because the neck is proportioned better for your hands or the body is a better size or the wood is a better quality that will make it durable to warping and other defects over time then you're using those buzz words for the right reasons.
      I think a lot of people are trying to hype up these expensive guitars and market them to new players who are likely to not stick with the hobby for a long time. Buzzwords are super effective when targeted towards 16 year olds who are just trying to impress their girlfriends with a guitar. You shouldn't throw all merit in those qualities completely, but you need to choose a guitar for the right reasons and not because some dude said mahogany is better for tone LOL

    • @thomasmoody8307
      @thomasmoody8307 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      It's funny when he reads unsubstantiated, contradictory hypothesizing by people on forums. When presented with evidence that their beliefs are incorrect, though, they will claim to have magical ears that can detect sublime differences in tone, and if we were lucky enough to have extra super special hearing, too, then we would realize they are right. They must think they are Ferengi from Star Trek and play a dog whistle like it's a harmonica.

  • @MakeSomething
    @MakeSomething 2 ปีที่แล้ว +25

    I have a guitar build video coming out this spring and will be linking back to these test videos. So good!!

  • @nicholassharp9798
    @nicholassharp9798 2 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    Next video should be about how a hollow body sounds different than a solid body. If the wood and finish has nothing to do with the tone / sustain, why do hollow-bodies have those hollow sounding overtones?

    • @extendicus262
      @extendicus262 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I imagine it would have something to do with the vibration having enough room to go into the body and back out through the sound holes

    • @alphagt62
      @alphagt62 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Sustain is just one aspect of performance. Tone is a very different thing. There are very good reasons why guitar makers use certain tone woods. If it made no difference, why use some expensive wood? I know from personal experience that wood type and construction make a huge difference in tone. I’ve got two Fender basses. One is a Squire P bass, with what amounts to a plywood body. The American P Bass is the exact same size and shape, but is made of Adler. Both necks are identical, rock maple with maple fretboard, and they have both been hot rodded with Seymour Duncan Quarter Pounder pickups, their electronics are identical, I did the work myself. The result is, they are both fine guitars, but the Adler body is head and shoulders above the Squire, it has a beefier tone, a longer sustain, and a quality to the notes that the Squire doesn’t have.

    • @joshuarichard2509
      @joshuarichard2509 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@alphagt62 he already made a video debunking tone wood....you clearly missed it.

    • @alphagt62
      @alphagt62 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@joshuarichard2509 all he has done is measure volume, he has in no way measured tone. Some people just don’t want to realize that they are tone deaf. If they can’t hear it, they don’t believe it exists, simple as that.

    • @sagnier
      @sagnier 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@alphagt62 you should definitely make a video countering what Jim has done. It would doubtless be amazing...

  • @paulmitchell5349
    @paulmitchell5349 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for this video. Made me realise that what is important is how the ATTACK of the note fades out much quicker than the sustain.

  • @timschell5781
    @timschell5781 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Love to see how every change affects the sound, and not always how you might think

  • @au5music
    @au5music 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    From what I’ve gathered (and assumed) the most significant factors that effect the overall sound of a guitar are pickup type, pickup position, and player.

    • @vidamansa1337
      @vidamansa1337 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      The actual Au5 here? That's crazy. Love your music, man

    • @whereandbackagain7059
      @whereandbackagain7059 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Au5 and I think that final factor counts for about 95% of it.

    • @SeeSawMassacre
      @SeeSawMassacre 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I'd say the amp has a more significant impact on the sound than the player or even the pickup position.

  • @RoySmithVideo
    @RoySmithVideo 2 ปีที่แล้ว +79

    Love it! Disproves every one of those "golden ear" guys that claim this or that feature of their favorite boutique guitar has the magic sustain. Keep up the good work!

    • @fromgermany271
      @fromgermany271 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      The golden ears have often proven, that they cannot distinguish the „things that control a guitars tone“ in a blind test.
      A German university professor, who owns a collection of guitars of original brands wrote a book about all aspects of the system „electrical guitar&“. He occasionally added quotes from „expert magazines“, often contrary quotes, even from the same author, just based on what they tested. The result was: there are design aspects, some designs are just better solutions, but these are not the ones normally seen. E.g. the tone on a old LP was very dull and he found that the short cable from pick to pot was isolated with cotton, which collected moisture from the environment and that changed it‘s capacity to 10x the capacity of a standard guitar cable. So playing in the dessert sounded much better than playing in the Mississippi delta. Or he found that even modern Gibsons used an old approximation for the 12th root of 2 spacing of threads, whereas the cheap Epiphone’s used the correct values.

    • @forcryingoutloud23
      @forcryingoutloud23 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I guess I'd hear things different if I had gold stuck in my ears too.

    • @mathkrGames
      @mathkrGames 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@fromgermany271 Kannst du mir den Autor bzw. Namen des Buches sagen? Bin durch googlen leider grad nicht drauf gestossen.

    • @fromgermany271
      @fromgermany271 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@mathkrGames
      Manfred Zollner, Physik der Elektrogitarre.
      Leider vergriffen, aber in Teilen als PDF runterladbar.
      Edit: er hat die einzelnen Kapitel als YT-Videos verfügbar gemacht. Lesen fände ich besser.

    • @mathkrGames
      @mathkrGames 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@fromgermany271 Danke!

  • @karthain5742
    @karthain5742 2 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    For your next test video, it would be cool if you did necks. Set versus bolted versus through.

    • @AKustik632
      @AKustik632 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I think his previous video with just strings and no fretboard already debunks this myth

    • @aforabiishk
      @aforabiishk ปีที่แล้ว

      Ola englund has done a video on this topic

  • @LukeEsther
    @LukeEsther 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I love how sarcastic you are when discussing some of the theories while still remaining completely objective in your delivery.

  • @bloodsugar2low
    @bloodsugar2low 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You're my man. You clearly point out the evidences for all of my suppositions. I like Your approach very much and hope to see more💪

  • @shakeyoulikehaiti
    @shakeyoulikehaiti ปีที่แล้ว +16

    You're telling me you've never hit a note at the end of the song just to let it ring out for a little bit? That has to be longer than 4 seconds sometimes lol.
    I love your process man. Thank you for what you do. You put a lot of work and time into your videos. It's nice to see someone who cares about the quality of their content. Truly, thank you.

    • @nef36
      @nef36 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Well, as per the video, any guitar can do that over 20 seconds. What we're concerned with is having the note be as loud as possible for when it musically matters. For end of song ringouts, less sustain actually sounds like a better idea because you're less likely to have to mute the strings before they're inaudible.

  • @anthonyguy1347
    @anthonyguy1347 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I really enjoy the posts I've seen so far. You are like a " Musical Mythbuster" Taking a scientific approach to answering a question. The fact that more questions arise, is secondary to the fact that much of what I've heard, doesn't seem to live up to the results. I don't have any answers, I simply try things and settle for what I like best, and not what others tell me.

  • @dannaaa330
    @dannaaa330 2 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    You also have to keep in mind that a few decibels of difference is a massive difference in loudness, since decibels are a logarithmic scale, not a linear one like meters.

    • @GuyXVIII
      @GuyXVIII ปีที่แล้ว +1

      exactly ^^
      Add few of these "small" differences and you have the tone thing going on.

    • @doom.azafran
      @doom.azafran ปีที่แล้ว +8

      It's a logarithmic scale because even if the sound is x10 times louder, our ears only percibe an small increase in volume. So a difference of 3-5db is not that much.

    • @knotwilg3596
      @knotwilg3596 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      "Loudness" is not a physical quantity but a quality of human perception. Pressure is a physical quantity.
      Decibels ARE the measure of loudness, i.e. our perception of the (difference in) pressure coming from different sound waves on our ears.
      So a few decibels of difference is a small difference in loudness, by definition. They may represent a major difference in the pressure on our ears, but we appear to "sense" this pressure difference in a logarithmic way.

  • @DylanWOWilliams
    @DylanWOWilliams 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Dude. I genuinely love it.

  • @GianmarioScotti
    @GianmarioScotti ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Some guitars have been hurt in the making of this awesome video.

  • @TheHesseJames
    @TheHesseJames 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    It just confirms my experience. The important factors of an electric guitar are its playability and its pickup and electronics. The rest is pedals and amps.
    The most overall important factor is the player.

  • @dominikrucka3552
    @dominikrucka3552 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Another great one.
    I enjoy the fantasy, that at least SOME people will stop obsessing about such things. I like that right at the start you've addressed my main problem with the sustain discussion (that was pissing me off for years) - ...because "For how long do you actually want the note to ring? What kind of music do you play"?
    Your videos are filling me with a great deal of satisfaction, because it just proves me right. And I don't even know much about "guitar physics", but it just always seemed obvious to me, that the tonal differences from guitar to guitar are in the real world inaudible, and that every guitar that isn't a piece of crap has enough sustain for a "normal person".
    Let's recap people:
    - The tone comes from an amp (and pedals/effects ofc) and the speaker (or an IR) and to certain extent pickups. ...NOBODY will notice if you change anything other than this.
    - Sustain is fine ("long enough") if the guitar is well built and properly set up. ...so get yourself a $200+ guitar and you're fine. And no, your $1000+ Gibson, Fender, ...whatever, isn't better when comes to the tone (except pickups) and longer sustain. It has better hardware, better electronics and it probably (hopefully) plays better, but play something else (with the same pickups) and nobody will hear a difference.
    Good for you for having an expensive guitar (I mean it sincerely), but don't argue that it sounds better than well built and properly setup inexpensive guitar, because "the wood, the...whatever". No, it's because of the pickups (that probably cost like $200 bucks a set).
    We should all focus on getting better at writing music (i.e. actually spend time writing music), rather than researching tonal differences between steel and brass saddles.
    Thanks for the ridiculous amount of work these videos surely take.

    • @xenophonkirby
      @xenophonkirby 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I recently put some Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates in a cheap guitar that now knocks ALL my expensive guitars out of the park. You're absolutely right!

  • @rafaelcabrera7570
    @rafaelcabrera7570 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Love your videos. Just want to add that, even though resonance and sustain are factors that co-exist in electric guitars, they are inversely proportional. In other words, the more resonance, the less sustain, and viceversa. Think of acoustic versus solid body guitars. Resonance is the transfer of kinetic energy from the strings to the body of the guitar. If the string retains the energy, it vibrates longer; hence, longer sustain.

    • @Zappabain
      @Zappabain 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you. Another thing to notice is that maybe a more appropriate equivalent of the air guitar would have been pressing the head and bottom of the guitar, or just the head, against for example a heavy wardrove.

    • @nickgoogle4525
      @nickgoogle4525 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Good point. This also makes clear why the matress-guitar had more sustain than coupled-to-resonant-mass-guitar.

  • @edphaze6550
    @edphaze6550 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Dude, I don’t know what is more entertaining. Watching your videos or reading the comments!

  • @arlotinson8236
    @arlotinson8236 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is an exceptional deconstruction that changed how I think about sustain.

  • @obviouslyblack
    @obviouslyblack ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The most important factor is cost. The more money I spend on a guitar, the less willing I am to accept its shortcomings.

  • @winebird8952
    @winebird8952 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I personally feel like to make real difference with a single guitar, you could change the strings, pickups, and amp. But I also feel like sustain is too variable dependent. Like, any small shift in a test could have a significant impact on the outcome.

  • @darrenweight5972
    @darrenweight5972 2 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    Some of the tests, like the mattress one, were surprising. A few dB is a big deal. Every raise of 6dB is effectively twice the perceived volume. So if a test does say 18dB in test A and 21dB in test B... That’s pretty major.
    Example - 42dB isn’t twice as loud as 21dB - It’s closer to 4 1/2 times louder.

    • @Dopamint
      @Dopamint 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      To be fair, the matress/dresser test, was the worst one design wise.
      There's no pressure applied on the matress, there is a lot of pressure applied on the dresser.

  • @MorbidManoeuvres
    @MorbidManoeuvres 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    love how deep this went, thank you. I guess the easiest after all is to help the guitar itself get there, high gain amp with a compressor.

  • @josh26757
    @josh26757 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Myth busters for guitar. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos and saving many many people in the future from going down the wrong path.

  • @ASeventhSign
    @ASeventhSign 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    My first 'nice' guitar was a neck thru body Charvel in the 80's. Typical hair metal type guitar, black with the shark-tooth inlays. \m/
    One thing I loved about this guitar was that I could very clearly feel the strings vibrating the whole guitar. I could tune the guitar just from the vibrations. I used to say I love the sustain on this guitar. Other people would say the same thing. I have no idea how many db it would drop after 4 seconds, but I wonder if other guitarists mistakenly refer to that wonderful resonance you can physically feel throughout the whole guitar as 'sustain'?
    Maybe 8 years ago I bought a PRS SE guitar ($700), much cheaper than that old Charvel ($2500), with a neck thru body and the resonance feeling is very good, but not quite as responsive in the higher frequencies.
    Just a thought. It doesn't make me play any better or worse, but it makes me so happy when I play it. Those subtle vibrations give me the sensation of 'feeling' my guitar and the music. Even when I'm noodling around with no amp.

    • @thwartificer
      @thwartificer ปีที่แล้ว

      So like it's basically a difference in produced overtones?

  • @wintersolstice2887
    @wintersolstice2887 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    You’re a genius for all the content you’ve put out .. 🤯
    Small thought…A mechanical arm playing each note at a set force would have made this experiment more accurate

  • @TuuTer
    @TuuTer ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This guy just destroyed the majority of guitar tone myths with science, showed that tone comes from the fingers (aka skill) and I bet the majority of people will STILL argue that wood matters 😜
    Mate, amazing videos. I really appreciate your work and dedication. I know how much time and thought one has to put into that type of content.

  • @diogomartins3629
    @diogomartins3629 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    best guitar channel ever.

  • @richhooper3949
    @richhooper3949 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks for making the video Jim. I would bet the things that dampen a guitar's vibrations the most are the player's arms, hands and body contacting the guitar's body and neck. It would be interesting to see a test where the guitar was hanging from some thin wire or fishing line and then strummed.

  • @blackstratblues
    @blackstratblues 2 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    For me the biggest difference in the quality of sustain is on the High E and B strings when fretted past the 12th fret. If you find a guitar that does this well, hang onto it!

    • @MidlifeRenaissanceMan
      @MidlifeRenaissanceMan 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Yes. The plink plink of disappointment can only be covered up with extra gain so much before the truth is revealed.
      That said, my Tribal Sun from Michael Kelly, with the sonic mass bridge has some nice sustain. It’s just a shame, the bare feet board, and the tiny dots, make it a bitch to play when you’re on a dark stage.

    • @MyName-nx1jj
      @MyName-nx1jj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@MidlifeRenaissanceMan Practice in the dark and you'll never need dots.

    • @MidlifeRenaissanceMan
      @MidlifeRenaissanceMan 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@MyName-nx1jj much harder for slide, but I get your point :-)

    • @Dartheomus
      @Dartheomus 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I've definitely noticed this, moreso on acoustic guitars. I bet it's more a factor of the setup and the strings just barely getting muted against the frets.

    • @Leo_ofRedKeep
      @Leo_ofRedKeep 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      That's a set-up thing. Fret buzz is the sustain killer. Also hitting strings hard brings them to touch the frets.

  • @sski
    @sski 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Well done, Jim! I really enjoyed this ride. I almost did a spit take when you took the saw to that strat copy and started drilling holes in it (great editing!). Cool playing it at the end too :D I'm looking forward to the next adventure!

  • @dirkkrau-stangenberg5632
    @dirkkrau-stangenberg5632 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I find your test videos very interesting. One thing comes to my mind regarding the sustain: new strings vs aged strings. aged strings loose their sustain over time I would assume. (Your strings look new)

  • @Glissade195
    @Glissade195 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I don't even play guitar, but I find this kind of evidence awesome to watch. This is the kind of thing that the Internet was made for.

  • @pieterpuk7684
    @pieterpuk7684 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I cant believe this channel is flying under the radar like this. Guitar voodoo sales pitches are on life support.

  • @jrrarglblarg9241
    @jrrarglblarg9241 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I went back to Santana’s Europa as soon as I saw your list and relistened. I counted out the note at around 3:00 as 11 seconds and another later at 17 seconds. I was blown away by it when I heard it as a kid. A musician adult explained it as big gain then a compressor before the amp to level out the volume from pluck to decay. It’s the only reason I knew what a compressor was when I was microcasting FM to my yard and realized I needed a pawnshop 3630. Now I’ll watch this video.

    • @andreamuchetti4932
      @andreamuchetti4932 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Of you listen the 1980 live version with Yamaha sg, the second note il hold for One minute, but with feedback from amplifier..

    • @alexstixx
      @alexstixx 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Santana talks about utilizing feedback in his masterclass, so I wouldn't discount that as an explanation in that song.

  • @markhendrix5438
    @markhendrix5438 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Jim, you’re truly the Adam Ragusea of guitar experiments. Super interesting stuff, keep it up

    • @joejohnson8966
      @joejohnson8966 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      That he is.

    • @blackhaulmike
      @blackhaulmike 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      And as Adam sometimes shows up at music youtube Im waiting for the time he appears in comments on this channel.

  • @clouseaux
    @clouseaux 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    You need to rig up a device to deliver the same strum each time, using your hand is going to vary quite a bit each time (attack, pressure, velocity, etc)

    • @Lantertronics
      @Lantertronics 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Most practical approach would probably be to do multiple strums and average the results.

  • @Junkmail_01
    @Junkmail_01 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Watched your first guitar video and thought you were a one hit wonder. This video makes me realize I was wrong. You’ve got a new subscriber.

  • @dutchmcfadyen5867
    @dutchmcfadyen5867 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think the Quality of Sustain is the most important thing regarding this topic.
    Interesting stuff dude. I've really enjoyed these videos about what makes electric guitar sound the way it does.