CEAM 1950B: A Roller-Delayed Missing Link in .30 Carbine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2022
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Many thanks to the French IRCGN (Criminal Research Institute of the National Gendarmerie) for generously giving me access to film this exceptionally rare specimen for you!
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The existence of this firearm somehow hits a sweet spot I didn’t know existed
I was literally baffled by this guns existence and had a moment of cognitive dissonance 🤣
Couldn't have said it better
Couldn't have put it better myself
Gun Jesus out here making people discover gun kinks.
this was great! Im a cetme fan and I know of the ww2 german roller delay work and now I know how it all went down. Spain picked a winner
Day 178 of Ian living like a goblin in the Gendarmerie's collection, the curator glances anxiously at the amount of guns still to be filmed...
French guns, they should have known better than to let him in, in the first place....and he haven't found the 7.35mm stash yet to hoard like a dragon
The curator panics and search's his rifles, surely Ian hasn't been to this collection yet? He couldn't have, last week he was still in the walls of the last collection. He should have a few days and a few videos before he makes it here to take away these rifles.... Then he hears it.... A voice over his shoulder... "Hey guys.... thanks for tuning in...." as the curator turns he sees and empty spot where the 1950B used to be... Dear God he's here....
@@redking1851you described this like he’s an SCP and i love it
"Monsieur, please, eet is time to close for the night, zee staff wants to go home"
The perfect PDW does not exis-
"Here's an MP5 in .30 carbine."
*Ian's Dream-Gun Bingo card:* French Military rifle, weird developmental rifle, ww2, .30 carbine, H&K, PCC,
*Ian sees this gun:* "Bingo!"
There's only one miss. Being used in action, perhaps a scratch or hole in the butstock where a VietMinh bullet hit/graesed it?
Probably designed with the war in Indochina in mind. Light handy carbine, full auto capability, folding stock for paratroops…ticks all the boxes. You have to remember France was essentially broke after WW2 so this may have influenced the use of the readily available .30 carbine cartridge. Cheaper than developing something new and non-standard.
Almost wish we got handed some of these in the states service at the time
Considering how everyone in their mother in that Jungle warfare started opting for M1/M2 carbines for that reason... And then immediately complained about not having enough power but besides the point
Would've been a nice upgrade to have around
Mind, the French loved the .30carbine M1 for its own sake, and the Germans had only just introduced the concept of intermediate ammunition select-fire weapons to the world. It was not obvious that a high-powered pistol-type cartridge wouldn't prove just as good for the role as a scaled-down rifle-type ammunition. M1 Carbines already worked much better for combat than originally conceived, so I suspect the main thought was not "it is what we have" but rather "we like the ammunition what we have, but we want an action that is much easier to produce." M1 Carbines, while cheaper than M1 Rifles, were still something that was only "cheap" by American standards, not cheap compared to what France was hoping to achieve.
I would still rather have 8x33 kurz for that application...
@@BasedOddz idk man 30 carbine is like 7.62 tokarev but hotter.
@@theocorkrean6810 .30 carbine is more similar to a middle ground between .357 and .44 magnum but instead of a fat heavy bullet it's a thin light bullet which allows it to travel at faster speeds
Just when you thought this channel had shown you the HK lineage in all the calibers it had to offer...
This is exactly the sort of video that makes Forgotten Weapons such an amazing resource for firearms aficionados. With only six ever built, it takes someone of Ian's reputation to open the right doors and show this to the world. Thank you to the Gendarmerie firearms reference collection for sharing it. We not only got see it, but also got details of its history and see how it disassembles. I love seeing these truly forgotten weapons.
Ian, this may be my favorite episode of Forgotten Weapons. Youy've done amazing work with many guns, but I can't think of any other firearm which is both forgotten and so central to an ongoing story in firearm design. I'm not sure that anyone else has the connections and interest to bring this information to the world, and I'm grateful that you've chosen to do so. Thanks!
I believe it is my favorite as well. I knew that some of the refugees from Mauser, via the Mauser great escape by train, eventually ended up in France, including Dr. Vorgrimmler. I also knew that the French had them working on a 30 Carbine rifle. I knew that Dr. Vorgrimmler eventually moved on to Spain, and that Francisco Franco established CETME so that Vorgrimmler could carry on with his work and produce the CETME rifle design which was adopted by Spain, and which ultimately brought things full circle back to the ex-Mauser facility in Oberndorf, which was then occupied by HK. This is after Germany first adopted the FAL as the G1, but when FN denied them the license-to-build the G1 they "discovered" Dr. Vorgrimmler and his work with the CETME rifle, which then became the G3.
This is all such an intriguing adventure story, almost like it was written by Ken Follett or Tom Clancy! But it was true! It actually happened!
But I never thought I would have the opportunity to (virtually) examine the rifle that fills a huge void in that chain of events. Very satisfying! Thank you.
As someone who has an irrational love of the .30 carbine, I want one of these *so badly.* It just seems like it would be an absolute blast to shoot.
I'm in the exact same boat :)
Do you have the 30 carb handgun
I feel like PTR would come with this since .30 Carbine is a fun plinking round
A CETME style rifle in .30 Caliber Carbine?? Yes!! That sounds so cool.
IKR, Take my money!
Not to mention the overall size and weight reduction too! Looks like it would be a joy to shoot
In .22 Spitfire, what could have been.....
Shame US and its M14 + 7.62 x 51 mm ruined it all.. smh.
This had such potential. The simplicity of the roller delay system. Combine with a readily available cartridge design for just the type of ranges police would be using. A good upgrade from the m1 and M2 carbine.
If .30 carbine could be loaded hotter in this gun it would still be an upgrade.
@@theocorkrean6810 it's a pretty hot round as is.
The 30 carbine was already loaded fairly hot at the time. The limitation is the fact it's derived from the .32 wls which was a small game cartridge.
If the Army went for a .351 wsl derivative instead of the .32, the M1 carbine could have been quite the gun
@@phantomsoldier497 It can be very effective, as long as you realize it's a close range weapon. th-cam.com/video/NlFE0BgjSt0/w-d-xo.html
M2 was almost half as light as this German in disguise.
This is a wonderful sasquatch of a gun. Never would have expected the CETME/HK guys to consider making a gun in 30 carbine.
At a glance, it looks like the STG-44s strange sibling.
The STGs cousin, raised in France since birth
Ha he reviewed a Franchi LF-58 prototype, the resemblance would have been stronger. That's a real STG-44 style tilting bolt action and stamped steel receiver in .30 Carbine.
The only new 30 carbine guns available today are reproduction m1's and the Ruger Blackhawk. I would like to see the gun industry bring to market new modern 30 carbine PDW's.
I agree strongly.
They'd be lightweight and an ideal amount of effectiveness for home defense
🙋🏽♂️ditto
Doubtful we’ll ever see a resurgence of .30 Carbine, especially since .300 blackout exists now. A .30 Super carry PCC might be cool though.
.350 Legend would be a modern counterpart
There’s the FAMAE .30 carbine by well FAMAE.
Interesting, like a french CETME A.
Or the CETME A is like a spanish CEAM 1950B, rather ;)
Mas bien los dos ,una actualización del sturmgewehr 44-45
.30 Carbine seems like it would be such an ideal fit for roller delayed blowback guns. I bet this was a sweet shooter.
I wish there was some way we could see this in action, though I suspect there's no way with a museum piece like this.
it is a firearm in a reference collection of a law enforcement organization. So normally, it should be in a condition to shoot, otherwise, it would not be very useful.
This CEAM 1950 B *certainly looks* like it could shoot, it is intact with all components working as designed as intended - but Ian would most likely not be allowed. Plus he can not bring in live ammunition ( customs, he is in France for this video ), and the institute would have rules about only using their ammo for real study or investigation - leaving no shooting demo on a super rare firearm.
Very interesting. Nice of the Gendamerie to give him access
"I'm a real assault rifle!" - CEAM 1950B, bless its so cute
That door handle had me messed up for a bit😂🤣
I was told the IRCGN had EVERYTHING and more related to firearms in France and were France fought...now I see it's true...what a really forgotten weapon indeed.
They also have a wide collection of pistols or rifles used in famous assassinations (or attempts)
They probably also have all the weird unique custom stuff the GIGN messed with over the years which would be interesting to look at.
There are far too few 0.30 Carbine rifles in the world.
Visual wise, it's fascinating how some old guns hold up extremely well, this being a good example.
Perfect example of how knowledge, passion and personality combine to make compelling content.
Bless us gun Jesus!
Super intéressant. Merci Ian
Man, wish this had gotten fully developed. I would buy a lightweight .30 carbine HK rifle this.
IN A MINUTE! .30 carbine does not get the respect that it deserves. The Germans loved them, and captured as many as they could.
@@MrBullethead63 I'd argue it was ahead of its time, a true PDW cartridge decades before the 5.7.
I could perfectly imagine this as the main service arm of OCEANIA in George Orwell’s 1984. Apart from endless piles of telescreens and helicopters!!👍⚔️☠️
Or Eurasia
@@Ingsoc75 we've always been at war with Eastasia.
@@Evilliboba we’ve always been friends with EastAsia, and we’ve always been at war with Eurasia, what do you mean?
@@organiccrack516 We’ve always been friends with Eurasia, and we’ve always been at war with EastAsia, what do you mean?
Interesting the 1984 film used Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbines, perhaps because they looked familiar and unusual at the same time.
Remarkably similar to the first few models of the CETME (unsurprisingly), my father was surprised to know this predecessor existed, having been issued with CETMEs in service
well... before the CETME becoming a thing, CEAM was working on developing their own stuff based on the StG45(M) with the help of Mauser engineers who went to france to work in it. Until the french government pulled the plug of the project, then Ludwig Vorgrimler moved to Spain to continue the project there. The rest we know how it ended.
I need this . My timeline sucks .I want in the timeline where this is a plentiful milsurp arm
Perhaps convince the US to adopt it as M1 replacement?
This would have been so awesome to have been in production. A 30 Carbine mag that wasn't fragile. Something in-between 9mm MP5 and HK93...
Wow! You are hell of a lucky guy to even touch this one. I hope I could have a chance to see this in person
That handguard/bipod is a surprisingly underused idea when you think about it. Also, yet an other better-than-an-m14 postwar carbine that never saw service :(
Kel-Tec has it on it's SU-16 series.
It's kind of useless in practice, which is why it has never caught on
PTR should do a retro copy of this! Would be a great nod to history and probably a fun shooter.
Probably wouldn't sell well though
@@BeltFedSelfDefenseIdk, if Inland and Auto Ordnance can keep on making M1 Carbine clones for this long, I'd imagine PTR might do okay. Besides, most their guns are collected by people who will buy up almost everything they make.
I've wanted to see a video on one of those for years, thank you Gun Jesus.
I love the setting, it looks like they told you, "We will bring the guns to you, you are allowed 3ft into the building, no more."
They are afraid of him getting into their really really rare collection and making it out with them
30 carbine is such an underrated round. It bothers me how people talk about how underpowered it is. Makes me think they’ve never fired it because I can tell you firsthand , Issa spicy round.
i know I’m a year late, but the whole “.30 carbine is dogshit, couldn’t penetrate thick winter coat in korea” is largely due to the ammo issued(gee, where’ve i heard that before) being formulated for tropical conditions during ww2 in the pacific, along with soldiers missing because its kinda hard to aim when some guy is suppressing your position with a 35-71 round mag ppsh at blistering high fire rates.
Somebody done shot the dang wall.
I like how when the Bipod folds, and actually looks like the handguard when not in use, they need to do something like that for the AR-15, but all in all it looks kinda like a cross between the Cetme and an MP5. it is very nice though
I liked that too. I think it does act as a handguard. I think it would get bent pretty easily or fail to clip back up soon in a combat rifle though:)
@@britjohnson1990 I'm sure that a production rifle would be a bit more robust than this one.
@@chemistryofquestionablequa6252 probably. That sheetmetal bipod would have to be much thicker. I like bipods built into the handguard in general like the fal or famas
Fabulous to finally see one of these in some detail!
I remember when both 30 carbine Rifles And Ammo Was Around the Surplus was great stuff
Yup , I still have about 5 cans of S Korean M1 ball on 10 round stripper clips manufactured at LC from the 80's. Good stuff!
Be aware some French berdan ammo was corrosive, as well as exact copies of LC53 US ammo made by our "friends", the Red Chinese. It was an exact copy except for being berdan primed and highly corrosive. If you have an such ammo, be sure to clean the bore with hot soapy water after use.
@@828enigma6 All of my ammo was made in USA and exported to S Korea, it has US and Korean markings on the cans and bandoliers. I came across it and bought it all for a very good price, like .30 a round many years ago.
Im 100% with you on these stepping stone/missing link designs being suppperrrrr cool. An actual assault rifle in 30 carbine would be rad af.
Their was an israel mp gali in 30 carbine, took m2 mags. I've only seen one image on a Wikipedia page never more than that.
The "official" designation for the .30 M1 Carbine cartridge would have been 7.62x33mm. I was always curious about a fireformed .30 Carbine case with an actual shoulder on it to slightly improve the performance of the cartridge.
You mean the .300 Blackout/Whisper? If the .223 family had been around in 1938, they may well have worked with that case rather than the .32 Win Self Loading, and the result would have had more room and enabled heavier, subsonic suppressor-friendly rounds. Maybe if someone reproduces this one, the BO will be available in it.
*BEHOLD:*
The ST-G3
Nice ! XD
What a delightful little .30 USC rifle that would've been!
I’ve been looking for literally anything chambered in .30 carbine with it being an M1 carbine as I already have one of those, I just love the round
It’s very honor to see that rifle in my own eyes through the TH-cam. 😎😄😁😆👍
French STG-44 in .30 Carbine
Truly a forgotten weapon
Thanks bro , I am long time Sub... love ur information!! Bravo and on the spot!!;-)
Fascinating that that thing is chambered in .30 Carbine. I enjoy watching old WW2 archived films. I like to pick out the details of the vehicles, field equipment and weapons etc. I’m always surprised at how frequently I see M1 carbines in the hands of seemingly front line US troops.
I've often wondered why there aren't really any modern carbine designs chambered in .30 carbine. It's a sweet little cartridge.
This Video again shows how important Ian's work is and how lucky we are to enjoy the fruits of his studies. At this point I have to say it: Ian is not only a national but an international treasure.
A simply wonderful video about a truly rare item. Thank you.
I had no idea this weapon was ever developed and built. Too bad France didn’t make a couple million of them, because I would sure love to have one. I once owed an H&K 93 (which I rue the day I ever sold it!, yeah I bought it new for $450.00.) A .30 carbine in this design would have been a great shooter, because the H&K91, CETME, and variants beat the crap out of my old arthritic shoulder!! Great video Ian.
Chondroitin, bro, it's a life-changer.
I was immediately reminded of Ruger's "new" dead blow action.
Very interesting prototype gun Ian. Thank you for letting us all see it.
As someone who shot the G3 during his military service, watching this is like meeting a long lost uncle.
I never expected to see this weapon being still somewhere. First saw it in the book Full Circle lol.
That's a cool little rifle. If it were in prodiction today I'd probably buy one.
What a fantastic idea! I would love one of those in 30 Carbine. It just sounds like a great gun.
Thanks for this education!
So amazing to learn this step.
Super nice that you field broke it down so we could actually see the sameness of G3 and family.
30 carbine is underrated. Modern bullets? Moderate range? Will certainly do the deed.🤔🦅
Very nice piece of engineering and construction. A neat piece of history!
A small aside, but that mauser train story is easily one of my fave FW videos, I must have watched it 4 or 5 times now, just awesome 🔥
Without even seeing the video I made an imaginary bet that Ian would mention the Stg 44 in some capacity.
One has to wonder if Ian will ever run out of obscure weapons to showcase.
There was a lot of interest in the 30 Carbine cartridge, in Europe, in the period after WW2. As you mentioned, various French firms produced prototype weapons. Beretta produced a beautiful little carbine, similar in appearance but different in operation to the M1 carbine, which was sold to Marokko, I believe. Franchi also produced a very interesting carbine, th LF 58, which, like the French weapons did not go anywhere.
Sometimes it seems , as you are demonstrating the features of various weapons, you "discover" features and have an edit... Then include the newly discovered feature. Today's example is the stock lock. Thanks for the journey if discovery. Good Stuff Boss ☺️ The challenges of examining rare and unique firearms. Learn something new everyday.
Great vid, for the next ones Mulhouse is pronounced not like House but more like Ooze ;)
Love from Alsace
In german: Mühlhausen ( Mühle- mill).
Finally see a real one, and not some B&W photo
Thank you
This is incredible! I never heard about this. Thank you Ian and Forgotten Weapons.
I just love .30 carbine.
Being in a hurry and repositioning with the bipod deployed seems like a good way to burn your offhand.
So Hermann the German is told by the French to build a mp45 in 30 carbine. He answers,...yeah sure, oui oui..and goes off laughing at them.
Hello Ian. Thank you very much for sharing these findings, I was completely unaware of it. As an anecdotal fact: The countries that we buy Dassault aircraft (Mirage and Super Etendard), are very familiar to us because of their cannons, DEFA 552, derived from the German Mauser 213C prototype. Greetings from Patagonia Argentina.
The British ADEN 30mm revolver cannon was derived from the same source. It was widely used in the 50s and 60s. The Germans did a great job on that design!
@@alun7006 Correct! same ammunition, same performance, same "father".
Glad you can get access to places with these pieces and share them with us. Good video.
It looks like an STG-44 and an HK G3 in one.
The StG45(M) and the CEAM project paved the way for the CETME and the G3...
@@HK33E I know.
In Spain there was a CB 51 carabine, developed by CETME, in 8x33: it is a very unusuall gun.
And the CETME infantry rifle, was originally meant to fire a 7.92x41mm cartridge, which had a very long bullet.
@@Xerxes1688 yes, more or less like the .280 british, which was, in my personal opinión, the cartridge that the NATO should had adopted ínstead of the overpowered .308
@@migueltraviesa2987 I would have adopted both. The .280 for rifles and LMGs/SAWs, and .308 for GPMGs, DMRs and Sniper rifles.
Here's a video on the CB-51: th-cam.com/video/j8ZP0z0Vccc/w-d-xo.html
@@ForgottenWeapons thanks a lot
30 carbine is a great cartridge if used for it's correct use. The French had confidence in it is awesome. Great video as always thanks!
There's an amazing freezeframe around 1:12. Ian looks like he's reacting to the rifle having appeared on the table via teleportation.
I'd never realised how much he looks like an otter until that moment.
lol
Finally the final battle between IAN and the missing link between STG and Cetme/g3, take a seat and enjoy. Fun the missin link on the roller delayed rifles is... an early MP5 >D
Cheap ammo drives a lot of strange decisions. Had there been vast quantities of *quality* 8mm Kurz this might have gone a different direction.
Im guessing but I think a tapered case (8mm kurz) would work better in this roller delay design. I know the cetme first greased then added a fluted chamber for better extraction. The 30 carbine is pretty straight
I would 100% buy one of these. It's so cool. I wonder if this could be built off of a modern kit and modified.
I'm thinking it would be like an MP5 in 30 Carbine. It just seems like such a great idea.
That Bi-Pod design is AWESOME!!! Light, easy to use, and easy to put away...
.30 Carbine is damn near a .357 Magnum, a tad more powerful which is an impressive feat. My grandfather in Korea and Vietnam wars carried a M1911 and kept a 15 round mag in it and a .30 Carbine M1 Carbine. He loved the M1 Carbine, my father got a Chiappa M1-9 Carbine in 9mm NATO. He had jamming issues but took it apart, stoned it a little, wash all parts with Simple Green soap, cleaned and lubed with Break Free CLP, and lubed the rails with MILITECH-1 metal conditioner, loaded with 15, 32 round Beretta mags, works like a dream now, very comfortable plinker.
I love mine but the AR carbine nextvto it in the safe is a far better rifle.
It sounds like you're saying your grandfather carried an M1911 with a 15 round magazine during the Korean and Vietnam wars. "My grandfather in Korea and Vietnam wars carried a M1911 and kept a 15 round mag in it" Do you mean to say he carried am M1 carbine with a 15 round magazine in it, and an M1911?
@@Dick_Gozinya Maybe it was some custom field made extended mag? Connecting two 1911 mags should give something like 15 rounds because standard mag has 7 and if you connect two you still need only one follower so it would be something like 15.
I wish Chiappa made a version in 7.62x25
The first center fire rifle I owned was a used Universal .30 with a 4X scope in like new condition. I can't begin to tell how much fun my friends and I had with that rifle. Learned how to reload to reduce ammo costs because of that gun.
I really wish more than six of these were built, so I could have a chance to own one.
Thanks for your videos, Ian. All of them are what we gun lovers have always wanted to know. Congratulations for your work. Hugs from Brazil.
Looks like a mix of STG-44 and future G3. As French man, I love to see such weapons that very few people know (and manage to get one)
Ps: wrote this before seeing the entire video ;)
That thing is amazing. Never knew it was a thing now I'm enamored. Thanks Ian.
What a great looking rifle in incredible condition. Fascinating story in terms of G3 development and I’d never heard of it (which, I guess, is the point of Ian’s channel)
This was fascinating. Looking at the thumbnail, my eye was drawn to the shape of the upper receiver and all the CETME bells rang out. My mind saw the tricolor flag, though, and I was then confused. Thank you for drawing those supposed incongruities together for me!
This is one of my favorite guns featured on this channel so far. .30 carbine is a cool ass cartridge, the roller locked system is cool, but this one has a bit more of a retro aesthetic to it, plus it has an integral bipod. I would love to have one of these so much. Such a perfect mix of iconic classics and weird experimental stuff
I've always wondered why more guns weren't made in 30 carbine
I think it's because surplus M1s were *everywhere* in the 50s/60s/70s as so many were made (several million). No need to make new ones when they were easy to find and cheap. By the time that surplus supply started to dry up the potential market disappeared as the world had moved on to ARs.
Probably because anything it can do, 223 Remington can do better, with just a bit more length.
Man I really wish more modern firearms used the .30 carbine cartridge it's just a nice round to shoot
Looks like a much more streamlined and less blocky Stg
Oh nice. I have been wanting to learn more about this rifle for such a long time.
Hello Ian, I am one of the few french that watches your videos, great content, but I might be able to help you about Mulhouse : It's pronounced" Mül ooze"
Coup par coup would goo "coo par coo"
Sureté : Suretay
The rest is realy starting to be spot on, excellent progress over the past few years !
Thank you for this great coverage.
I was about to make the same comment. Great content as always!
Thanks for confirming this. I'm not a native French speaker but I remembered the pronunciation as " Mül ooze" from my last visit there.
Great stuff Ian. Very interesting such a neat weapon... Thank You!!!
When a German deserter and a French Resistance fighter have a baby...
When a german Ingenieur work stolen from french
I would love to see this on the range.