Thompson SMG in 30 Carbine
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When the US military released a request for what would become the M1 Carbine in 1940, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation offered up a Thompson submachine gun simply rechambered for the new .30 Carbine cartridge. This entailed a new magazine, a receiver modified for the longer magazine, and a new barrel and bolt face - but the other Thompson parts could remain unchanged form the standard .45 ACP models. This made the submission a pretty cheap and easy effort for Auto-Ordnance...which is a good thing, considering that it was almost assured to be rejected.
The stipulations for the new carbine included a weigh requirement of 5 pounds, and the Thompson weighed more than double that (in both .45ACP and .30 Carbine forms). Only a few were made, and the one submitted for military testing was rejected outright on the basis of weight. This example is serial number 1, and resides at the Cody Firearms Museum.
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It'd be neat to see a firing comparison between the .45 ACP and .30 carbine Thompsons.
(Too bad the museum won't let Ian have a little range time with it)
Little do they know ian is the museum
Yeah wonder if it's more controlled in full auto than the m2 carbine
Just so you know, this is the only prototype in existence
Rambonii probably much more controllable considering the weight alone.
@@Rambonii im sure it is
Fun Fact: this weapon appears in the first level of Wolfenstein the New order as the "SMG" .
In the Canon it replaced the M1 and Sten in allied arsenals despite it's high cost as it was the only weapon capable of breaching the gap against the German Assault rifle, and as troops became extremely precious to the US and Britain after the Failed invasion of France resulted in the Extermination of the First and second US Armies and the Nazi counter invasions of Ireland and Canada.
Wow i never knew that! Thats awesome, thanks for the info.
I never heard anything about that, but in my headcannon the Thompson used in the New Order was the "Thompson M1946".
It would've made more sense if they'd just issued the more affordable M2 Carbine..
@@OccamsToyota2 Maybe not. You have to consider a few factors: First, that the Thompson was still in mainline use by US and British troops, it's the weapon they were familiar with, and in widespread production and with spare parts. Consistency is not unimportant.
Secondly; The Thompson is heavier than the M2. This isn't always a bad thing. The M1 and M2 are not meant as frontline assault rifles, they are meant as essentially upgraded sidearms for truck drivers, squad leaders, mortarmen and anybody else who doesn't have a rifle as their primary weapon.
The .30 Carbine Thompson gives you a more durable design which can serve longer as an actual frontline weapon in more harsh combat conditions, which is a better choice for arming fewer but more troops than the cheaper but flimsier M2 which would be better for mass-issue to rear-echelons and support personnel.
Personally, if I were designing the world I would've given the Allied troops a whole new "Assault Rifle" because the US would've certainly had the industrial capability to rapidly develop and adopt one, probably a scaled-up M1 Carbine, chambered in a cut-down .30-06 similar to the 8mm Kurz. I'm imagining a fictionalized Ruger Mini-30 chambered in .300 Blackout, in terms of its overall appearance and dimensions.
@@HellbirdIV I question the idea that the .30 carbine Thompson would be more durable than the M2 carbine--it was effectively just blowback operated, while the M2 actually had a locked breech, meaning that its action would be subjected to greater wear than that of the M2. Also, in war, a lot of materiel just ends up getting destroyed or captured anyway, so reducing that loss is another reason to go with the cheaper gun. There are reasons why the Thompson was fairly quickly phased out and this version never even went anywhere, after all. Also, In real life, the M1 carbine ended up in front-line use during WWII and the M2 had largely replaced the Thompson by the time of the Korean War, despite the fact that this wasn't the original intent of the M1 carbine, because it and the M2 were still sufficiently tough while being cheaper.
Then again, in the Wolfenstein canon, the Allies lost, so, in that context, it makes sense for them to have made the mistake of using this version of the Thompson and not the M2 carbine.
so that'll be the chicago printing press.
Ha ha too funny
there you go!
Yeeesssss!
Now That is funny.
What about a Tommy gun in 5.56? Or in 30-06/7.62 NATO?
Interesting. Since .30 Carbine is a light rifle round, effectively an “intermediate cartridge”, and the Thompson is capable of semi or full auto fire, Auto Ordnance basically created an assault rifle without intending to. Not a very good one since it’s a bit low powered, too heavy, and a bit short in barrel length, but still fits.
It’s an intermediate cartridge.
Anyone who says pistol round is just repeating fudd lore.
It’s a replacement for the 1911 just like a Glock is a replacement for pepper spray. That doesn’t mean a Glock = pepper spray.
_____________
110 grain .30 caliber round @ 2000 fps = pistol round
But 110 grain .30 caliber round @ 2200 fps = .300 blackout the best cartridge ever developed.
It’s 98% of the muzzle energy of 5.45x39, but it’s a pistol round. Got it.
_____________
They traded 200 fps and about 20 yards of point blank range, for an assault rifle that weighed 5 lbs instead of 10.
Not much of a trade off when you’re surrounded by semi auto 30-06 rifles.
The US never adopted a cartridge like the 7.62x39 for a reason. The same reason the soviets abandoned it.
They replaced the carbine round with 5.56.
@@-John-Doe- except the .300 BLK makes alot of sense considering its BC is also better and has heavier grain bullets.
@@darrengarcia4937 It makes a lot of sense over half a century later after the light rifle project developed into the AR15 with modern materials - Aluminum, Polymer - and a very high pressure cartridge.
It works if you already designed the AR15 and 5.56... but it’s not going to replace the 5.56 for a reason
- the same reason intermediates weren’t adopted
- the same reason the .30 carbine wasn’t compromised to be something it’s never intended to be, or .300 blk will ever be.
You have to know precisely what the design parameters are for the firearm.
Shortening the OAL of the cartridge is necessary for lightening the firearm and ammunition, and for logistics purposes.
This is the entire purpose of the T65/ eventually 7.62 NATO replicating .30-06 M2 Ball in a short action. Smaller firearm, smaller magazines, etc.
You _could_ sacrifice the design for a slightly higher BC and 20-25 extra yards of point blank range... but the United States military wasn’t interested in that at all.
Just like the US military was never really interested in submachineguns - the Thompson was pressed into service and the M3 grease gun was designed to fit the niche as cheaply as possible.
@@-John-Doe- there is a big issue with your argument. The reason intermediates werent adopted was because of the stupidity of the US Aquisitions. We decided on the 7.62 NATO round contrary to better performance out of the .280 and .270 british. You cant paint the US as a all-knowing and correct benchmark when they have a history of making stupid decisions. I.E. the M14, 7.62 NATO, Incorrect ammo types and cleaning kits for the M16, the terrible mods done to the M16A2, the M249 mag adapter.
@UCCoTBHMhI4wxaPknjDHh07Q because it was better in literally every way. Only reason the Russians cant is the fact that they are so poor. A stockpile of inferior 7.62x54 weapons and ammo from the USSR days keeps their army as a army. Its hard to change your vintage with a GDP like that. We could have done it in the 50s but we had stupid people in charge that stuck with the 7.62 NATO and M14 instead of the FAL or EM2 in .280 even though both rifles and calibers were better in testing than the .308 which the US tried to hide the evidence of. Only took a bunch of dead troops to realize how big of a pos the M14 was and to field the M16 even though they even tried to sabotage the 5.56 and M16.
Why do you not have a slick little carrying case full of dozens of different kinds of snap caps? Sounds like a job for Patreon!
Auto-Ordnance missed a number of easy bets when they didn't pursue lighter and more compact versions of thier SMG. A stamped-metal SMG using a wire stock would've likely met the weight, and would likely have greatly reduced cost.
Agreed. And with a shorter barrel several inches short, like the Grease gun.
Well they did build something else that actually met the contract.
I know it would probably never happen considering this is the only one ever made... But I would love a firing video of this and your opinion on how effective it would be. Competition for the sturmgewer perhaps?
What a shock...a weapon that could have made the 30 carbine useful. It could have been America's PPSH...only costing 10 times as much. Seriously, a 30 carbine submachine gun with a huge magazine capacity could have been pretty effective. At double the velocity of the 45 acp it and even less recoil, it might have been better than the 45 acp...
Except you would be complete ignoring the contemporary American military doctrine with it's emphasis on individual accuracy as opposed to Soviet dedication to massed fire, which you see later in the development of the Armalite vs. Kalashnikov rifles.
So you're saying that the thompson in 45 acp meets that doctrine and a Thompson in 30 carbine wouldn't?
The Thompson was adopted because US military early in WW2 suddenly felt the need of a SMG without having a purposedly designed gun. Had they had the same vision as the Russians, they would probably have mass-produced the Reising SMG: equally effective but lighter and much cheaper.
I have no argument with any of that. All I'm saying is that a Thompson in 30 carbine, with almost no recoil, a very high capacity magazine and twice the velocity of the 45 acp, may have been more effective than one in 45 acp, especially at medium ranges.
What about the M2 carbine?
I feel like there was a missed opportunity to say "Your Garand has a BAR with it. Why leave your carbines behind?" They could easily get away saying this could be a package *with* the rifle that actually fit the requirements.
I like the modern look of tommy's, rather than the musketoon look of the M-1.
The problem of the weight due to the absent of applying the pressed steel sheet to the tommy's receiver. Same problem with early Ak-47.
This video slipped past me, great work Ian ( all the way from UK) Shame Call of Duty WW2 never used it, even if just in multiplayer. Would be very interesting to see how it fired. Keep up the good work Ian.
Closest you can get is Wolfenstein The New Order first level
It's a nice gun
I honestly believe a M2 is a exceptional "SMG", at least in experienced shooters hands, recoil can be a bit much for most shooters. For some reason I thought this would be in that class, completely forgot about the whole weighing 5kg, thats a deal breaker. Although it would have been more accurate and longer ranged then the 45.
WOW...never knew about that one. I bet 30 carbine feels like 22lr out of a Thompson!
Finally a reason to use those adjustable long range sights
a well done video as always.
thanks ian.
Ian, have you ever encountered a Thompson SMG in 38 Super (rather than 45 ACP)?
4:30 I know it’s probably just reusing machining profiles but it has the grooves for a drum magazine. Wonder if one was ever made?
Always loved this gun! thx for all your reviews, pretty entertaining.
This is the second time a video has been released at approximately the same time as an Ahoy video about that gun.
I have an Infield M1 Carbine. I love it, and plan on picking up an Auto Ordinance reproduction M1 Carbine at some point.
I hade no idea they even made one in that cartridge
I suspect that would actually be a very usable, controllable carbine. I wouldn't, however, want to carry it for long.
If giants existed, they could buy a few thousand of those.
if someone buys it, you should try to convince the owner to let you get some shooting footage of it (if it actually fires)
It's at a museum, not for sale.
the Thompson and the Grease Gun are the Modular engines of the gun world. 3 great engines, all tooled with the same steps.
The wood furniture would have been a lot of the weight ?
Ian, how about doing a piece on that FBI Thompson conversion to 10mm?
Hmm... that's (probably) a 20 round magazine, given Auto-Ordinance's past history of 'standard' mag capacity.
made a video of the Thompson in 351 winchester!
:)
Very cool, and always interesting to watch.
the gun made an appearance in the vr game, hot dogs horseshoes and hand grenades where it fires from an open bolt and is fully automatic
Ian have you ever been to the Texas Ranger museum in Waco Tx they have some very unusual firearms they might let you make some videos it's mainly old west era
'England and America are two countries separated by a common language’
Awesome! i had a great time in Cody!
Given its weight it must be a stable shooting platform even for a full automatic fire.
why does it seem the US military missed so many great opportunities for updated weapons
Because the army keeps asking companies for better small arms but never wants to pay for them...
Enlisted just drop this baby
Yes
Yeee
God i want one of these. I always wanted one. Actually, can I get that in .357 S&W Magnum?
I wonder if they tried to make a grease gun in .30 carbine.
Maybe Auto Ordinance will make some on a limited basis.
That magazine release next to the trigger makes me nervous.
ElagabalusRex It's close to the position where the magazine release is on most modern pistols.
Your finger inside the trigger guard tends to positively push the mag release lever forward.
And how about a safety inside the trigger guard?
Considering that you're, presumably, most likely to be hitting the mag release to replace an empty mag I'm not sure that its placement is that big of a deal. I think that the bigger deal is the awkwardness of the way it works, instead of a button or a simple level they chose to go with something that's more of a toggle.
Had no idea this existed.
They probably would have saved two pounds and ten inches if they slapped a folding wire stock on the back. Is .30Car a softer to fire round than .45ACP?
Ahhhhh I was just there! Missed that one. But to my defense 3500 firearms .
My favourite machine gun
That place is really cool. It be awesome to shoot a Thompson.
I'm surprised they didn't do a m2 carbine in 45acp
Because you would just have a grease gun.
I heard of Chinese forces using smgs as fill ins for lmgs during mt fighting.
I can only imagine this would be Awsome in that role.
I had to laugh at my self I thought you had make a mistake on the title lol very interesting firearm thanks for your vids
had they made it lighter and cheaper they could have stopped the adoption of the grease gun
Yeah, something as simple as a wire stock or removed altogether could have saved a fair bit of weight.
The wood doesn't weigh that much, it's the massive chunk of steel that the receiver is made out of that gives them all that weight.
Given that the bulk of the weight was from that giant milled steel receiver, it likely would have to have been constructed out of sheet metal like the M-3 just to come close to meeting the weight requirement. Even the M-3 was too heavy by specs.
+Matt Dickson You can't make this weapon much lighter, due to the operating design. If you make receiver (which is responsible for a significant chunk of the weapon's weight) any lighter, the weapon stops working.
The M3 is surprisingly heavy for what it is, seeing pictures of them I always thought that they were fairly light, then I got to fire one once and I was surprised at how heavy it actually was. On the plus side, the recoil was surprisingly mild for something that fires .45 ACP and considering the reputation the Thompson had for harsh recoil.
From a business perspective I guess I see why the manufacturer would want to demonstrate that all the army's thompsons could be converted if so desired. Since they (Thompsons) were so expensive and their were a lot in inventory I wonder if they were ever really worried a lighter smaller caliber weapon would completely replace it. Maybe, If they made an attempt to reduce the weight a bit it would have gotten a better reception it's just a hard gun not to like.
Does anyone know is their anything to do other than the fire arms museum in Cody. I can foresee getting an earful if their isn't something (anything) available and interesting for the non gun aficionado.
The Buffalo Bill Center of the West includes the Cody Firearms Museum as well as 4 other museums, including natural history, American history, plains Indians, and western art. And, of course, Yellowstone National Park is just a short drive away.
Forgotten Weapons Thanks for that. It occured to me after I asked I could have googled about it. I think the art thing pretty well snags it. Cody moves up from do-able to definite over nighter. I wonder if their are lesser Yellowstones around Yellowstone like around Disney.
That is really cool! Approaching 357 mag power in full auto subgun platform. Too bad that it was not seen for its potential. Sure would be fun to try on a pickup load of watermelons.
Keep in mind, at about the same time the M1 carbine came into service, the army started looking into what would become the M3 SMG. Auto-Ordinance was about to lose a looooooooooot more of their SMG sales than they expected.
The WHAT?!
If only they stamped it and gave it a wire stock
Carbine has bean car-bean for all my 60 years.
This is literally the sub machine gun from Wolfenstein the new order.
Something I read or heard back in the mid 80's was that the FBI was going to rebarrel/rechamber their Tommy guns in 10mm. Is there any truth to that?
I want one!
I have heard about this one by my dad
Why is it more heavy than the standard M1A1?
Isn't .30 carbine too high pressure wise to work reliably in a open bolt blowback design? I recon it would require a much heavier bolt and/or stiffer recoil spring compared to a standard .45 ACP gun
I want think they could still use that round better then a 9mm
This may have been the first assault carbine....
They could have just made it with a stamped receiver and replace the stock with a folding one, and it would immediately weigh 8 pounds max.
isn't the Submachine Gun in Wolfenstein New Order which is based off the thompson .30 caliber in game, btw, very cool gun wolfenstein.wikia.com/wiki/SMG
Por qué será que aveces pienso que la stg 44 fue basada e inspirada en la tomsom."TOMY GUN"
Was this posted before? I seem to recall...
Anyhow, I'd like to contend that while the Thompson was quite the bulky thing, THIS would have been (if it maintained the reliability the Thompson was known for and was controllable) a much more potent SMG than the .45ACP version. Would it not?
Dear Santa......
Worlds first pdw
very nice looking gun tho
That magazine would look great in an AR variant that was chambered in that cartridge with a pistol brace and a rare breed FRT.
no, thank you ian
if u need a 1928 Thompson hit me up I got a authentic fbi issue Thompson
Why was the US so late to the game when it came to stamped guns? Why didn't a company produce a simple stamped gun in 30 carbine for these trials? It would have been light and cheap which seems important for these trials
thewiezman Because back then and even today many Americans see stampings as cheap and therefore inferior which isn't true.
Scott7891 it is true, stamping at its core produces a less strong final product than milling or forging and that is just a fact. However, when comparing the small loss of durability and endurance to the ease of production it becomes easy to justify stamping. The reason why the US didn't start stamping was really quite simple: we had no experience with it.
Russia and Germany both (the main stamped firearms producers in ww2) both had long history's with the process of stamping, specifically in toys and things alike. They already had a general idea of the proper techniques in the process and some of the infrastructure to begin.
The reason why the US still doesn't do much of anything with stamping is because
1. From a civilian standpoint there is no reason to have a stamped firearm because the minutiae manufacturing cost difference has no significant impact on the individual unit cost and
2. From a military standpoint, our primary weapons system is now the ar-15/m16 platform than can perform in really any role needed for a military firearm, SMG included. Assuming we needed a faster, cheaper to produce M16 we would switch to injection molded polymer receivers and parts which are MUCH easier to produce than even stampings.
The sight is not identical as it is up to 600 yards and for a completely different cartridge,
Ian did you at lest get to fire the thing?
.50 ae version ? anyone? not for much practical use but I'd love to see that bore diameter with the Thompson barrel dessign
Is it a transferable?
Doesn't this make it technically an assault rifle?
Why would manufacturers put the patent numbers on the gun? Does this make it easier to challenge infringements in court? It seems like a dumb thing to stamp on a gun, but enough companies did it that there must be a reason.
Fair warning....
I wish you could have fired it, I would love to know if this full auto 30 Carbine is more controllable than a M2 Carbine.
This would have pre-dated the SG44 by years.
This idea could have also been applied to the grease gun.
Would select fire and intermediate cartridge technically make this an assault rifle by modern standards?
I suppose? Given that the first M1 Carbine trial called for all the guns to be select-fire, they all would qualify.
Neat. Shame they didn't fully embrace the concept until the M16.
now imagine a open bolt full auto rifle with a stock too short, without grip and as ramped as a regular tommy stock. that would be a disaster.
I saw one of these in a surplus store so there must have been more than one made.
US Military: "Ok Auto Ordnance, one of the requirements is that the gun be 5 pounds or less. What can you do with this?"
Auto Ordnance: "Well, how does twice as heavy as that sound?"
US Military: "Were you listening to me at all?"
Auto Ordnance: "No I wasn't, in the meantime, we went and made that 10 pound model in the .30 just like you asked. So, how many would you like? Why are you walking away? Where are you going?"
Wait you said under 11 pounds. We thought you said under one hundred and eleven pounds
No one in particular Auto Ordnance: But the recoil would be lower on this 10 pound gun nooooo!!!!
@@bennettfender1546 with Thomson rate of fire?
Why are you running? Why are you running?
Thomposon: "Oh five POUNDS? Whoa whoa I thought you said Five KILOGRAMS!"
The weapon for the Allied force in the beginning of Wolfenstein: New Order.
Unfortunately, it was only used in the first level.
@@justincholos.balisang6884 waited the while game for it to return :(
@@alexjones8239 yeah I loved it
Really liked the design of the Thompson Carbine of that game
Shame it only lasted 1 level
It does not even have its own ammunition nor even placed in secret areas of levels. Hell after the new order it was reduced to nothing more than a background prop before again being reduced to non existent, and the German replacement was nice. However it's close but no cigar. Even in 2019, the pre order bonus was a complete cop out with only merely skins of the allies.
Wait wait hold up........its full auto, intermediate cartridge and has a detachable magazine......if adopted this would be the first assault rifle adopted.
Sure, but it wasn't adopted, and it was decades after the first such guns that were also not adopted.
If we're going to those lenghts, the Russians had the first ever, the Fedorov Avtomat.
Forgotten Weapons ahhhh okay i was mainly saying for the us and if it had been adopted. I understood it wasnt or wed have more and you would have done a video on it
it was full auto, and the russians classified 6.5 arisaka as an intermediate cartridge
+Robbie Dickson The Soviets never even thought of the concept of an assault rifle, though. In Soviet infantry doctrine, there were submachine-guns and rifles, nothing in between. And there's more to it than just a fancy name, the Soviets simply employed those weapons as rifles (and the AKs as SMGs).
This also reflects in Soviet marksmanship training, the AK-47 was expected to be used at far lower ranges than the cartridge and the weapon actually permit, everything beyond that was meant to be engaged by "sharpshooters" (in US terms that specific role would be a marksman).
2 dislikes? How? How can you say "aw that sucks, dislike." to cold information? Baffling.
Fat fingers
Probably disliked that Ian didn’t get to shoot it.
Would actually be fun to see it vs the M1A1 Thompson in a match.
I once read that about 50 of these were requested by the FBI for their agents. Anyone know about anything in that line?
I was really interested in this one after Ahoy's video
Very good timing!
Indeed, what a coincedence.
Yeah hahahaha
Mayur I just finished watching Ahoy's Thompson video. 😀
The military didn't even test fire it? They could have at least done THAT. Sure, it didn't fit the bill for a carbine, but if the military was going to keep using the Thompsons it had, it would be interesting to see the merit of having one chambered in .30 Carbine versus .45 ACP. They might have found some use for it somewhere down the line.
I've thought the same thing. If it worked reliably there would have been a logic to switching to a .30 SMG and phasing out the .45 Thompsons. It would simplify the ammunition supply, since they'd only need small amounts of .45 for pistols, and the .30 Carbine rounds are quite bit lighter than the .45. I imagine they were scrambling to produce enough weapons at the time they didn't want to interrupt the production lines.
Charles Inglin But would it kill as well as a 45? At short range with a center mass shot, probably not. It just seems almost insulting that nobody in the military even test fired it after Auto Ordinance went to the trouble of designing and building a prototype.
.30 Carbine virtually identical to .357 magnum other than the diameter, so yes, it would kill a Nazi just fine. Especially if it were full auto.
Is it going to be controllable though? By itself, a .30 carbine is not hard to handle, but what about when being fired at 700 rpm?
.30 Carbine and .45 ACP aren't all that different in recoil. .30 is probably going to be a touch snappier, but it's a 12 pound gun, it'll be fine.
Mil: Your gun is too heavy, too complicated, and too expensive.
AO: Here's the same gun with a different cartridge so we're good now?
I guess the version of the Thompson in Wolfenstein: the new order is real in some fashion.
I was about to say the same. I always suspected that the Thompson in Wolfentein: TNO was chambered for something longer than a .45 ACP. It also shoots from a closed bolt.
Yes, and it was also because the 45.ACP wasn’t making it through German armour
But it contains 40 rounds
Is it possible for that mag to fit 40?
@@guts-141 if they changed the mag to double stack then 30-40 would be perfectly doable
@@derpcon4212 Quad stack 😎
You could prob buy a very nice house for what this gun is worth.
I feel like Auto Ordnance just wanted a participation medal. I'm just think of that Family Guy clip about Ringo Starr's song. "We're gonna put this right here, right in this display case, that way we can see it everyday."
We need a Thompson in 45-70
😅
Obscure Fact: 'The Owen Gun Story' references a Owen Gun chambered in 30 Carbine performing satisfactory.
Now that would've been a jungle gun
you do a phenomenal job on these videos Ian. Nobody does historical firearms videos like this. Very impressive.
For some reason, I still like the M1921 or M1928, Chicago Typewriter, where it still had the bolt action on top of the gun, with the original compensator on the end of the barrel, with the finned out barrel, and those historical cherry wood front & back grips with stock, & also the legit adjustable folding sight on the rear. Something about this gun just gets me everytime.
I own both the Thompson M1A1, and the Thompson M1928 Chicago Typewriter AEG's, as well, both from Cybergun/CYMA/Thompson, Auto Ordinance out of Worcester, MA. Ive always had a fascination with these Thompson guns, & now I've got the collection, for AEG's, but still cool to me. Lol I've been really enjoying these videos my friend, on all the different types of Thompson's sub-machineguns. I'll definitely be tuning in, thanx again 🔫🔫👍🙏