I love the way you talk about Sibelius. I have adored Sibelius since I was a teenager, and thought I knew the symphonies back to front. I felt the Kullervo melodies, but didn’t know what they were called or where they came from. I’m so grateful for your insights. Don’t you think there’s something strangely attractive about pedal points, ostinatii, chaconnes, passacaglias etc: really the essence of the minimalists? Is it the feeling of eternity, just glimpsed through these repeated themes? Shivers up and down the spine…. I shall get your Sibelius book!
I didn't realize Sibelius 3 is considered a weak link by many. It was the one that appealed to me the most initially and is still my favorite of his symphonies.
I have loved this symphony since first hearing it with Boston and Colin Davis; I also lived through the Maazel era in Pittsburgh. After hearing Maazel's First and Fifth with Pittsburgh I paid no attention to the other symphonies. Thank you for enlightening me about the Third; it is glorious!
I share your enthusiasm for the 3rd. I absolutely LOVE this piece. I remember years ago hiking to a university library where I had no parking privileges so I could look at a score to see what the 2nd movement looks like on paper.
How can you not like the Sibelius 3rd? It has a unique charm all its own, which I like to think includes a little Scottish jig (somehow) within the 1st movement. I listened to the fine Turku/ Segerstam live performance on TH-cam earlier. That is an excellent, detailed, dynamic recording with lots of expressive colour to it. Segerstam is definitely the go to guy for many great recordings of Sibelius works. Boo to all the 3rd symphony detractors!
Sibelius 3rd is my second favourite after 6th. It should be played much more frequently at concert halls across the world. Olli Mustonen, whose CD David commends, is a superb pianist/conductor/composer. I had a great opportunity to see him conduct Sibelius 6th as part of Helsinki Festival back in the early 2000s.
Another great video. Personally speaking the first movement of Sibelius 3 is my favourite movement in the entire cycle. The Saraste RCA box set is fantastic value and needs to be snapped up. As for the Maazel Pittsburgh cycle - yes, it's a bit underwhelming but the orchestral playing is very fine throughout, the 3rd is superb and the performance of the fiddle concerto by Rachlin is quite remarkable. These boxes cost peanuts. Those who still like their LPs (I'm not one of them) there is a mid 60s Waverley recording issued on the Saga label of symphonies 3/7 with Gibson and the Scottish National. I like Gibson's Sibelius very much. Worth searching out for.
This has always been one of my favorite symphonies, and I thank you for this wonderful video. Alongside the string ostinatos , another element in the finale I always listen for is whether the conductor pays attention to the woodwind ostinatos (played 10x over) while the horns have the chorale tune. Bernstein does a great job highlighting them in his recording. So much of what makes Sibelius's symphonies such a joy is that the parts that do not have the melody or main theme still have some of the most important material.
A First-Rate presentation. I concur entirely..your observations on the "parallelism" of Kalevala verses and Sibelius' melodies is positively enlightening. I've always loved Colin Davis/BSO..the perfect combination of classical clarity and that indefinable Sibelian magic. Maazel/Vienna also excellent..but I MUST hear his Pittsburgh version! I conducted the Third a few years ago..the surprise HIT of the season! Audience loved it...but we had to work very hard to clarify all of the shifts and subtleties in the first-half of the Finale..VERY enigmatic stuff, and one of the reasons for the symphony's lack of popularity. And yes..absolutely...the gradual emergence of the big Hymn tune [a la chugging locomotive] must be handled very carefully. [My personal encounter with those Tympani diminuendos is described below in response to Mark Newkirk's post]. ALSO..I remember catching the final moments of a live Barbirolli performance (late 60's) at the Royal Albert Hall where the audience went absolutely NUTS at the end; it was thrilling. LR
Like everyone else here, the 3rd was pretty much love at first hearing and why some people don't care for it is puzzling. I had been giving the standard Sibelius repertoire a rest lately, delving into the Segerstam/Naxos Incidental Music just to hear something different, but today's video thwarted my plans and made me want to dust off the old and familiar and give them another spin. :) My next goal in modifying my expanding Sibelius collection is to find a new home for my Davis/LSO cds. They were music club thingies (Buy one at 99 cents and get 20 for free with shipping costs being equivalent to a car payment!), but even though they were cheap I still got robbed.
David points out the influence of Tchaikovsky in they way percussion drops out towards the end. Tchaikovsky does this in Swan Lake, Romeo and Juliet and 1812. And the missing cymbal crash at the end of the Fourth Symphony, which some conductors insist on "correcting". But there is another way the finale of Sibelius 3 connects with Tchaikovsky. In the third movement of the Pathetique, little fragments of a tune swirl about in a scherzo and gradually coalesce into a march, just like in the Sibelius finale.
Thanks so much for this. I got into Sibelius as a student with Bernstein and the Davis-Boston set with Edvard Munch on the box. I ended up playing the Davis 3rd more than anything else, especially the hypnotic last movement that can't stop until it just does. It seems limitless, like infinity in miniature. Must get your book!
I know that the 3rd is less considered by some people. But it's the symphony with which I always begin a new Sibelius' cycle, because I think it's quite difficult to conduct well.
The NZSO under Inkinen is well-paced with no glitches in the syncopated passages one hears in some recordings. Such a pleasure to hear from this Orchestra, which does not always please live (having said that, they have improved markedly over the past 20 years or so). My first ever memory of any 'classical' music was a recording of the Karelia Suite by the NZBC Symphony Orchestra (as the NZSO was named in the 1960s) which I played on my grandmother's gramophone player in a place called Taumarunui. I moved onto Tchaikovsky pieces on the same record, but the Karelia Suite has stuck in my memory. Sibelius' music is an undertone in Lilburn and, for me at least, harmonizes with New Zealand landscapes. Brilliant reviews - I have listened to most of the recordings, warming surprisingly to the NY Phil Bernstein, but for me the Davis Boston is hard to beat as it delivers in all three movements.
These wonderful talks are hard on my pocket book, but VERY easy on my ear. I love Sibelius, and never knew about the popularity of the third or lack thereof, having always enjoyed it. But Maazel does work some magic that raises my love for the third to new heights. Thank you!
I just received the Maazel/Third Pittsburgh disc. Wow! Yes, you can get it separately - with The Swan of Tuonella, Karelia Suite, Valse Trists, and -- an incredible Finlandia. Two things areamazing about this Third symphony recording -- I never knew Sibelius wrote something akin to dance music. I was bopping along listening to this baking some caraway rye bread in my stand mixer--- it was fast and catchy. I would call Sibelius many things, but a composter of dance music -- NEVER! Second, this has to be one of the best digital recordings ever. I could hear the flute in the first movement floating along spatially in my listeing room -- with standard equipment. And those cymbals at the end of Finlandia -- wow! This, as an indiviidual symphony, has to be one of my two favorite aquistions of Sibelius based on your recommendations recently -- together with the Iceland Symphony Orchestra Sibelius 6 and 7. Anyone who enjoys symphonic music should aquiare this recording.
Thank you for this video. I’m not familiar with this symphony yet but what I've heard and your thoughts are so fascinating I feel like this symphony might just become my next musical obsession. I'll be listening to the recordings you recommend and find my personal favourite.
Youre so right! His Third has a special place in my heart❤️. He really broke through with it! I was amazed at the score. Love legend of the kalevala too! I was biking home at night under a windy fall full moon trying to stay ahead of the lightning and rain that was coming when I first heard the lemminkeinen.
The Rattle/BPO CD-DVD box has a wonderful 3rd… the rest of the cycle is not memorable, but I really like this 3rd, His tempo in the Andantino is great, he really features the rhythmic beauties of the bass lines…
While the 7th is my favorite, I love the 3rd. And the 6th, when it comes to that. But then I've never heard anything by Sibelius that didn't enthrall me. One slight point of order. While Lönnrot was the first to write down the Kalevala poems, they date from ancient Finnish oral tradition, one scholarly theory being that the first of them is 3,000 years old. Lönnrot took his meter from that oral tradition and I'm sure Sibelius was well aware of it. Which takes nothing from his brilliant translation of that tradition into his music which your essay beautifully appreciates.
A terrific analysis of an ineffably great work. In fact it was the Third (via the Davis/BSO recording) that many years ago opened my ears to Sibelius' mature style--along with the Sixth, with which it was paired on that Phillips recording. I've never quite understood why these two symphonies, which to me represent the very essence of the composer, are so elusive to many listeners--and conductors. Beecham did a great Sixth, and so I'm surprised he dodged no. 3. Karajan, on the other hand, dodged no. 3 but gave us two amazing Sixths. In any case, you have sold me on the Segerstam; from the examples you played his version really hits the target. Another hit to my bank account! Otherwise its back to Davis, Kamu and Berglund. Thanks so much!
Have played 5 of the Sibelius symphonies with Okko. He is a wonder. The only problem with his 1st highly rated third is that in the finale the timpani ruin things by being tuned to H instead of C. Shocking that it wasn't noticed/ fixed by anyone responsible for quality control.....
Was patiently waiting for this talk! I think the last movement feels like a giant coda that is incredibly uplifting and regal yet somewhay abstract. Btw I definitely recommend this for driving or walking/running with a pair of headphones.This symphony is bursting with kinetic energy and movement.
The Third is my favorite Sibelius Symphony. Eugene Ormandy said "he didn't understand it." What's not to understand? The First Movement reminds me of a joyful sleigh ride in a forest during Winter. Your comments and your choices are spot on, some of which are new to me. There are two live performances on TH-cam that I also very much like, those of Jaime Martin and Esa-Pekka Salonen.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I strongly agree with this. If you don’t get it, don’t perform it, and certainly don’t record it. I respect the conductors (there have been a few) who plainly and publicly said they don’t get Mahler 7 and thus steer clear. Of course, there have been several who don’t get it and record it anyway, generally with predictably mediocre results.
@@AlexMadorsky Same applies to Mahler VIII - the people who think it's kitschy end up making kitschy-sounding recordings. Don't like it? Don't do it. Nobody's holding a gun to your head.
@@marknewkirk4322 yep. Although I like Dave’s analogy of mostly needing a good traffic cop to conduct Mahler’s 8th, in its own way it imposes a lot of interpretive challenges. There’s something amiss when classical music culture leads to the “Symphony of A Thousand” bring so readily recorded and performed by maestros and ensembles that just aren’t up to the task. Much as I love Bruckner and Mahler, I find it difficult to quibble with the notion there’s too much of it about these days. That said, if any live performances of Mahler 7 happen within a 500 mile radius of my home, you can bet your bottom dollar I’ll be there.
Excellent discussion of this great work. And one other piece of advice for conductors about the end that should not be needed but too often is: do not speed up!
I have always loved the Third and like it much more than the First or Second Symphony. Such a marvel! My current favorite recordings are Blomstedt/San Francisco you mentioned, followed by Vanska/Lahti. My first exposure on LP was Maazel/Vienna and the Davis/Boston-all great performances of this most misunderstood work. Thanks for your enlightened discussion, especially tying it and other Sibelius works to the Kalevala.
When I was first becoming familiar with the Sibelius symphonies, the 3rd was the one that most immediately appealed to me. That opening theme is irresistably cheerful (somehow it brought to my mind a snow-fed brook flowing through a meadow in early spring) and the second movement is so calm. Based on the versions I've heard, I'd have to concede Dave's point about the final movement being hard to get right, but I still love the symphony.
Brilliant. I've never really gotten a handle on Sibelius's melodic writing. I have noticed that he sometimes extends a phrase by a couple of notes before abruptly lopping it off. But the "Kalevala tune" opens up a lot more to me. This a beautiful performance.
Karajan and Kamu available in iTunes/Apple Music in Lossless format (ALAC, ie. CD quality) AND you can also download the Maazel/PittSO in apple's lossless CD quality, both the full set and individual #3 with a couple of other fillers that may or may not be good
It's hard to believe that Sibelius went into such a long retirement from composing. Just think of the beautiful symphonies which were never written because of that.
Pietari Inkinen was Musical Director of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra for a number of years and, during that time, he gave many performances of the Sibelius symphonies and they were always highly enjoyable, as I was a regular subscriber to the concerts then. When he recorded them for Naxos, I bought the set and have found them somewhat colourless, despite excellent orchestral playing and recording and I don't recall being especially impressed with the performance of the third.. However, I must admit I haven't listened to them for some time now so should really play them all again and my opinion might change.
Thank you very much. I have been belatedly discovering Sibelius having been very fond of the 6th since a teenager and now in my 60s partly thanks to you got to really appreciate the 5th and 2nd and now the 3rd.
Sibelius 3 was the first of his symphonies that I got to know (Maazel/VPO) and of course it has remained a firm favourite along with his 7th. Sibelius and Berlioz are my two top favourite composers of all time despite the almost overwhelming competition. 😂
I grew up with the Colin Davis Boston Sibelius 3rd on an LP coupled with the 6th. Those two are the least known Sibelius numbered symphonies, and they somehow always ended up on the same LP. The movement endings of 6 disturbed me much more than the endings of 3. The sixth is a truly strange (yet wonderful) piece. It just refuses to do what you want it to do - like a teenage child. The endings of the outer movements of the 3rd are, in a way, almost too obvious. The magic of the Maazel/Pittsburgh endings is that he isn't embarrassed by the obviousness. He does what the composer says. And Sibelius's endings really do work, obvious or not.
Absolutely on-point. You HAVE to follow Sibelius literally and just let Mvts 1&2 of the 6th STOP...just STOP. The audience will have no idea in hell what's happening..but that's just the way it goes. Same with #3-- you must fully embrace the big "A-MEN" cadence at the end of Mvt 1--No Apologies..EVEN THOUGH (as Dave points out), Sibelius specifically indicates that the Tympani DIE AWAY on the final chord of Mvts 1 & 3; what kind of big ending climax is THAT?? It really kills the grandiose effect..the bottom just drops out of the entire orchestra. But Maestro Hurwitz offers a convincing rationale for this. Years ago I played tympani in the Sibelius Third (at a summer festival in Taos, NM); it was the final work on the final program of the year (conducted by a guy named Yuri Krasnopolsky). I actually wrestled with it...do I honor Sibelius' intentions, or do I barrel away full volume in the final measure, in order to bring the work AND the festival to a rousing conclusion?? Well, I'm happy to report all these years later that I put my head down...solemnly..as I played the final roll, and faithfully observed the diminuendo...until the tympani were inaudible. DON'T ASK why he wrote it that way, but he did...and it's RIGHT. LR
@@HassoBenSoba I actually explain why he wrote it that way, and it does not diminish the work in the least, or undermine a grandiosity that the music doesn't have anyway. It just stops it, and very effectively in my opinion, in a timeless glow of light. Keeping the roll going also keeps the tempo going, which is the opposite of what Sibelius wants.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Absolutely. Actually, I was playing "devil's advocate" above, voicing the common reaction of those who don't appreciate this symphony. And, as I added: ..."Maestro Hurwtiz offers a convincing rationale for this"...which you've just made even MORE convincing ("timeless glow of light"; I like that). And having been on both sides of those tympani rolls (playing AND conducting them), I heartily second your views. FYI-- when I conducted the 3rd, I had to remind my tympanist more than once to observe the "dims" at the end of 1 and 3. Nice guy, too..he wasn't being stubborn; it just went so strongly against his instincts.
It was with this symphony that I first "got" Sibelius, and it remains the one I like the most. After your analysis, I understand a bit better what attracts me!
I've loved the Sibelius third ever since I first heard it on a Decca/London LP with Maazel and the VPO. My current favorite is the Gibson/SNO recording coupled with very good recordings of the 6th and 7th symphonies. I particularly like the way Gibson keeps things moving in the two outer movements. Like Maazel with the VPO, he doesn't try to morph them into a heavy romantic framework.
I was going to post a comment about Gibson/SNO but you beat me to it. He builds up the finale brilliantly. I also really like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia in this symphony. The entrance of the horns in the first movement is thrilling!
Your commentary on Sibelius' symphonies is on point as always, David. When I am trying to explain it to myself why such big conductors as Ormandy and Karajan never felt passion for this particular symphony, I think that the Third really lacks heaviness and profoundness for them. You can compare it to the Sixth which is also very light and neat but towards the finale it becomes violent and in the end sad. Or the Fifth which is generally optimistic and pastoral but in the coda Sibelius throws in a powerful dissonance and the mood of the work changes entirely. The third doesn't have it at all. The second mvt is kind of somber and introvertal but it is so repetitive and without any climax, it's just flowing and flowing endlessly and then stops (I believe Sibelius made it in such a way on purpose, as in many other works, to depict state of mind rathen than a journey).
This is the first piece that drew me into Sibelius. It is my favorite and I rarely hear the ending done the way I first heard it. Mark Elder with the Halle Orchestra in a BBC Magazine recording. Very compelling listening. Thank you for these videos!
I love sibelius 3. My favorite of his symphonies. Pure magic. The second movement appeals to me the most. I love sanderling, kondarshin and gibson the most. Their second movement is the fastest I've heard, and that is one of the things I love about their performances. I think fast tempo works really good in the second movement of this piece. Slower tempos tend to annoy me, put me to sleep. Great talk as always!
Just discovered this channel on researching on SIbelius 3rd. I am going to listen to it at the Walt DIsney Hall next weekend and I wanted to be able to understand it more at the concert. this was a great explanation! thanks!
Oh, the third is always a favorite of mine, with that catchy opening frase. On a side note, a well-known author, at least in Dutch Circles, Simon Vestdijk, wrote an essay of his 7 Symphonies, ranking Nr. 5 as first. Well, I love them all. Vivat Sibelius!
Absolutely love this symphony and your talk is brilliant. Never could understand why this marvellous treasure is eclipsed in popularity by Nos 1 & 2. My only misgiving is the finale which seems to be cut short. Having it just stop is as you say, is fine. But it is such a wonderful, deeply gorgeous creation I wish it could go on longer. This may be sacrilegious to suggest but could not some innovative musicologist weave in a some repeats or extra development into the 2nd half of the finale to extend the pleasure? As it is, I can only bear listening to the slower performances or it's over far too quickly.
I like it. 3rd is an acquired taste. I had been listening to the 3rd around the time my mother died. Now, the melody in the 2nd movement always reminds me of her.
I’ve always felt a special affinity for the 3rd (The same goes for the first movement of the Kullervo Symphony, but in a different way). Great analysis, David! P.S. I’ve heard other of the Symphonies by Maazel/Pittsburgh and was very disappointed, especially after the Vienna cycle which is superb. So recommending the Pitt recording shocked me. I’ve got to hear it!
So glad you did the Sibelius 3rd. Its my favorite. i've loved it since i heard Maazel with the VPO. That's better than the Pittsburgh version, i think. The whole Pittsburgh cycle is a disaster in all senses, and i heard Maazel many times there and i liked many of his "personnalized" performances, like his very slow d minor symphoy.
I always loved the third symphony. And my favourite version ? Maazel in Pittsburgh ! Yes ! I have only one CD with Maazel/Pittsburgh, his Vienna cycle is much better. Best wishes from Northern Germany
That was magnificent Dave…thank you so much. My first cycle was the Maazel VPO one back in the 80s and I had come to Sibelius after hearing chunks of his popular tone poems conducted by Rozhdestvensky on cassette. Then the Ashkenazy Philharmonia 2nd again on cassette. I cannot begin to express my feelings when I first heard the Maazel 3rd (it was as if I had nothing to hold on to). I have never quite liked the first Maazel 3rd though revisiting it has helped. I somehow thought the Rattle version was better but I haven’t heard that in ages. Maazel in Pittsburg was a different story altogether of course along with your usual suspects. I love the Saraste as well…
Hi after writing my comment went back and heard the Rattle CBSO Third again…nope my memory was playing tricks with me. It was one of the better performances of the cycle but still could do with some more energy. Thanks again Dave, listened to multiple 3rd s today after your inspiring talk…cheers
Thought I had every orchestral piece Sibelius ever wrote, but somehow I missed Pohjola's Daughter. Must rectify. As for the third, I'm blessed with two fine recordings, the Kamu and Gibson with the Scottish National on lp. Because of the symphony's dedication (to Bantock) pundits at that time liked to call it Sibelius's English Symphony and Tovey thought the first movement's development sounded like fog-banks drifting along the English coast. Fair enough, we're all entitled to personal music associations and fancies, but I find David's links to the Kalevala far more convincing.
I found the Maazel/Pittsburgh Sibelius 3 on Amazon, on a single Sony disc, coupled with Tapiola, Finlandia, Valse Triste, and the Karelia Suite. The performance of the symphony is, as you say, fabulous; energetic (yes), expressive in the right places, and extremely well played. Thanks for brining this to our attention. The couplings are okay but mostly mannered and, in spots somewhat sluggish. Maazel's Karelia suite pales in comparison to Kamu on DG (second movement is a snooze). But, the disc is worth having for the symphony.
Streaming Maazel/Pittsburgh. Good call! Love this piece. Sibelius has one of my favorite minds in music. He's one of those rare artists who really do create their own language. As for form, I read a guide describing last movement as a combination scherzo (first half) and chorale finale (second half). To me, the chorale finale is always latent within the scherzo. It's constantly threatening to break out of it, like the chestburster in "Alien."
This was another great video, Dave. I have Davis/BSO for this one. :) BTW, I felt like a kid on Christmas morning when I opened up the box that the UPS man brought me today: Bruno Walter The Complete Columbia Album Collection, Richard Bonynge Complete Ballet Recordings, plus the latest release in the ongoing Nelsons/BSO Shostakovich cycle. I do wish I had gotten the chance to get George Szell The Complete Columbia Album Collection. And now, it's gone. :( So I couldn't pass up the chance to get the Bruno Walter box!
Berglund with Bournemouth is the Sibelius 3rd I imprinted on, and I haven’t heard it’s equal. In Berglund’s hands, the 3rd sounds like a serious, sensitive masterpiece. Not every conductor can make the 3rd sound that good, but Blomstedt comes close. Lenny’s 3rd with the NYPO on Sony isn’t too shabby; didn’t realize he actually recorded this work with Vienna/DG.
I thoroughly like the 3rd Symphony and have never had any worries about it, except that it needs care with the interpretation, like many great pieces. I don't prefer it to the other symphonies - it's simply different. Sibelius' style evolved so much. "Neoclassical" describes it perfectly. Some days depending on my mood I'll want to listen to the 3rd, on others to the 1st or 2nd, or 5th or 7th, or even 4th or 6th ... oh hang on, that's the lot.
Have been listening to this symphony quite frequently lately. The points you raise are interesting. I'm not quite sure but I believe this symphony could be a bit of a farewell to Helsinki. The music, particularly in the end, reflects the new neoclassical architecture of the city...
@@WMAlbers1 3 was composed about the time he retreated to his new-build outside Jarvenpaa to get away from the temptations of Helsinki and to concentrate more on his work.
The Okko Kamu of Sibelius 3 was released with Symphony 1 on a DG Musikfest budget CD. I've gotten to appreciate the Third Symphony, after loving the other ones. You make great points about the piece
A superb symphony, full of delicacy, intimacy and positivity - don't miss Simon Rattle with the CBSO bringing so much detail and sunlight to this joyous work! Those final chords are SO uplifting in Rattle's reading...
The 3rd may be my favourite, too. Always loved the slow movement. I sometimes wondered whether that extended intro to the finale is actually a sort of scherzo (third movement) from which the finale emerges. David.
As soon as you mentioned Maazel's Pittsburgh recording, searches for Maazel Sibelius Pittsburgh on a company named after a river's website suddenly appeared. "Sibelius: Symphony No. 3, Finlandia, Karelia Suite & Swan of Tuonela" (Sony Classical SK 61963, 1996) is now (in digital format chiefly, I would think) # 9 on their Symphonies best seller lists. The other 8 slots are occupied by (#1) BSO/Nelsons Shostakovitch 1, 14, 15; 4 drecklische classical comps; 2 versions of a set of four seventeeth century violin concertos about the time of year; and Lenny's Gershwin twofer.Your Best Box Sets video is still rippling through the marketplace.
Shortly before his death Maestro Maazel told the story, in a radio interview, of how he disliked the music of Sibelius for many years but eventually realized that he had been wrong. I really admire his honesty.
Talking about Maazel, David, I'd like to know what do you think about his two Mahler's cycles (Vienna Phil and Philharmonia). Maazel can do the best and the worst (for example, I love his Sibelius in Vienna, his early recordings on DG, and most of his Cleveland recordings), so I don't know what to expect...
Have you ever heard Ashkenazy with Stockholm Philarmonia in Exton sacd? I think is very good performance but I would be interesting about your opinion. He has made the hole cycle of Sibelius. Thank you for your comments.
As a classical newbie, I hear the “cello vroom” bass [Edit: followed by staccato horn] that was previewed in the fourth movement of Symphony no. 2, but fortunately not sustained there too long. I’m listening to 3rd movement of one of Berglund’s thirds, waiting for the d*mned tune to coalesce… yes, I’m a rock fan who gets itchy at songs lasting more than 6 minutes… okay, more horns, this IS Sibelius.. starting to hear the bass cello “vroom” intermittently… maybe the sample you provided has more prominent “vroom” … horn and woodwind sections strutting their stuff over string ?ostinato … hmm, no more vroom, and a soft landing. Okay, what is the technical term for what I call the bass/base (continuo?) cello vroom? All the best.
I care about it. The central movement is very similar to that of the 5th, which is much more popular, but, although I prefer the 5th as a whole, I prefer the central movement of the 3rd.
Dear Maestro Hurwitz, many many thanks for this talk about one of my favourite Sibelius symphonies. BTW, since you mentioned it, is there any hope for a talk about Dvorak 6th? :-)
The 6th is a wonderful work. I've heard it described as old man's music. Another time as prep notes for the 7th. I think those comments are unfair. It is a strange other-world of a symphony. But then all Sib's symphonies are distinct and inhabit their particular worlds.
The theme just before the end of the 1st mvmt sounds very much like one of the “Lord of the Rings” themes. And given the Kalevala influence on Tolkien, why not? Knowing who to steal from, and why, can sometimes be half the game.
Listening to the 3rd from the Maazel Pittsburgh cycle now on Spotify, which is included as part of the box (digitally). Interesting to note that the first movement of the 2nd has 2,573 plays, and the first movement of the 3rd has 28,358. Either a lot of people are in on what you know about this performance, or you've gotten it 25,000 additional plays.
I have always loved the 2nd movement. Stalwart, if a bit nostalgic, peasants gathering in the cathedral that is their forest -- lovely and even invigorating, surprisingly enough.
The thing I like about Maazel’s two accounts is he seems to understand that as an andantino, it’s not a dirge. Some conductors drag it out. For me, it’s not so much as a slow movement as a slower movement.
It may not be as idiomatic as those you recommend and maybe not so 'integrative' (how to put it?) of the Kalevala way to construct the flow but what about Paul Kletzki with the Philharmonia? I find him natural, a little romantic but not sentimental mysterious, epic (the last chords) and the Philharmonia textures come IMO so well even by Karajan standards. Perhaps the recording not a modern one. I would bet it as one of the best records I ever heard. Prefer it to the Kamu you mention. Just heard Sarastre on ORF 01 with the Vienna Symphony. So organic. Hope next year I make my way to the hall. Than you for your insights of Sibelius uniqueness.
Surprising that you say there isn't really a bad 3rd and most of recordings available are (at least) quite good. Of all the symphonies, it is the third I have felt least comfortable with and I always put that down to unsatisfactory conductings of it. I found attending concerts of it a better experience than sitting by the Hi-fi. And the range of interpretative freedom evident across hearings is wide and with this symphony (I find) disconcerting.
I have spent decades believing that no one loved this symphony except me. Now I see how wrong I was. I particularly like Barbirolli's performance with Halle.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Mmmm... I'd have to review my wide Sibelian discography, but I'm afraid our respective rankings are a bit different. Anyway, I like some of the versions you mention: Kamu, Segerstam, Blomstedt...
Dave - do you think it is fair to say that recordings of Sibelius' work overall are more superior than those of most composers - I am thinking consistency. I mean, how many outstanding symphony cycles do we have access to? Wonderful stuff. Great talk as usual. Happy Friday everybody!
These videos never fail in giving you new insights in the music you know and love. Thanks, Dave! I came to like the 3rd in the old performance of Kamu, part of his shared cycle with Karajan. A bright, lively performance that emphasizes the classical elements of the symphony - maybe its approach to the music is a bit one-sided - since then I heard a lot of other recordings that sound much darker and maybe those manage to bring out the multi-layered and multi-interpretative qualities of the symphonies a bit more. But Kamu is still fabulous, of course. The main problem with the 3rd is for me that it's a rather unbalanced piece. You've got two expansive movements of about the same length followed by a third that's a couple of minutes shorter, but consists of two movements fused into one. The scherzo part is fine, and long enough too - but the finale is just way too short. You want that glorious tune to go on for at least 5 more minutes, with some new material providing contrast. Of course it's great as it is, but still... Bruckner's 7th has the same problem, a less than perfect balance between the 2 first and the 2 last movements. (Which can partly be solved by playing the scherzo and finale as a quasi-whole, as some conductors do - or even switching the order of the inner movements, hello Colin Davis...) Unrelated, but very annoying - why does it take TH-cam so long to provide automatic subtitles for longer videos? As an ESL, I really need those, since my hearing isn't great, and I always prefer reading over listening. But in this case, it takes 4 days for the CC subs to appear, and that when it's so interesting that I want to enjoy it right away... aargh!
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This is such a gorgeous, structured symphony. Deserves to be much more widely performed. Thank you for this discussion.
I love the way you talk about Sibelius. I have adored Sibelius since I was a teenager, and thought I knew the symphonies back to front. I felt the Kullervo melodies, but didn’t know what they were called or where they came from. I’m so grateful for your insights. Don’t you think there’s something strangely attractive about pedal points, ostinatii, chaconnes, passacaglias etc: really the essence of the minimalists? Is it the feeling of eternity, just glimpsed through these repeated themes? Shivers up and down the spine…. I shall get your Sibelius book!
I didn't realize Sibelius 3 is considered a weak link by many. It was the one that appealed to me the most initially and is still my favorite of his symphonies.
Same reaction here, i absolutely love it, and more than the 2nd, when the noble theme comes in in the finale it sends shivers down my spine.
yes! I had no clue. I found it the most striking symphony by far.
Yep. All seven are just as good as the others and they are all very different. Love ‘em all.
Jan Swafford in his Beginner's Guide to Classical Music doesn't even mention the third so I guess it didn't make an impression on him.
Same here! My favorite Sibelius symphony
I love sibelius 3, the andantino might be my favorite slow movement in the entire symphonic repertoire.
Same, it's so beautifully written.
Sublime work of art. Never tire of it. Ever.
I have loved this symphony since first hearing it with Boston and Colin Davis; I also lived through the Maazel era in Pittsburgh. After hearing Maazel's First and Fifth with Pittsburgh I paid no attention to the other symphonies. Thank you for enlightening me about the Third; it is glorious!
Maazel's Third is one of the great ones--the strongest performance in the Pittsburgh cycle.
Well, here is someone who loves it! Thank you!
I just adore it. The finale is a bit tricky but the forward movement and classical elegance is just mesmerizing.
I share your enthusiasm for the 3rd. I absolutely LOVE this piece. I remember years ago hiking to a university library where I had no parking privileges so I could look at a score to see what the 2nd movement looks like on paper.
Well, if going there despite the lack of parking privileges isn't the acid test of dedication to the cause, I don't know what is!
How can you not like the Sibelius 3rd? It has a unique charm all its own, which I like to think includes a little Scottish jig (somehow) within the 1st movement. I listened to the fine Turku/ Segerstam live performance on TH-cam earlier. That is an excellent, detailed, dynamic recording with lots of expressive colour to it. Segerstam is definitely the go to guy for many great recordings of Sibelius works. Boo to all the 3rd symphony detractors!
I really learned a lot from this video. Thank you! I don't know how anyone could not like this symphony.
Sibelius 3rd is my second favourite after 6th. It should be played much more frequently at concert halls across the world. Olli Mustonen, whose CD David commends, is a superb pianist/conductor/composer. I had a great opportunity to see him conduct Sibelius 6th as part of Helsinki Festival back in the early 2000s.
Another great video. Personally speaking the first movement of Sibelius 3 is my favourite movement in the entire cycle. The Saraste RCA box set is fantastic value and needs to be snapped up. As for the Maazel Pittsburgh cycle - yes, it's a bit underwhelming but the orchestral playing is very fine throughout, the 3rd is superb and the performance of the fiddle concerto by Rachlin is quite remarkable. These boxes cost peanuts. Those who still like their LPs (I'm not one of them) there is a mid 60s Waverley recording issued on the Saga label of symphonies 3/7 with Gibson and the Scottish National. I like Gibson's Sibelius very much. Worth searching out for.
I love the third symphony. Very enigmatic, and the way it ends - pure genius, in my humble opinion. Thanks for the talk.
This has always been one of my favorite symphonies, and I thank you for this wonderful video. Alongside the string ostinatos , another element in the finale I always listen for is whether the conductor pays attention to the woodwind ostinatos (played 10x over) while the horns have the chorale tune. Bernstein does a great job highlighting them in his recording. So much of what makes Sibelius's symphonies such a joy is that the parts that do not have the melody or main theme still have some of the most important material.
A First-Rate presentation. I concur entirely..your observations on the "parallelism" of Kalevala verses and Sibelius' melodies is positively enlightening. I've always loved Colin Davis/BSO..the perfect combination of classical clarity and that indefinable Sibelian magic. Maazel/Vienna also excellent..but I MUST hear his Pittsburgh version! I conducted the Third a few years ago..the surprise HIT of the season! Audience loved it...but we had to work very hard to clarify all of the shifts and subtleties in the first-half of the Finale..VERY enigmatic stuff, and one of the reasons for the symphony's lack of popularity. And yes..absolutely...the gradual emergence of the big Hymn tune [a la chugging locomotive] must be handled very carefully. [My personal encounter with those Tympani diminuendos is described below in response to Mark Newkirk's post].
ALSO..I remember catching the final moments of a live Barbirolli performance (late 60's) at the Royal Albert Hall where the audience went absolutely NUTS at the end; it was thrilling. LR
Never had any problem with this symphony. Very enlightening video, though! Many thanks!
I've always had a great love for the 3rd symphony - i think i first heard it as a teenager from an album with Colin Davis conducting
Like everyone else here, the 3rd was pretty much love at first hearing and why some people don't care for it is puzzling. I had been giving the standard Sibelius repertoire a rest lately, delving into the Segerstam/Naxos Incidental Music just to hear something different, but today's video thwarted my plans and made me want to dust off the old and familiar and give them another spin. :)
My next goal in modifying my expanding Sibelius collection is to find a new home for my Davis/LSO cds. They were music club thingies (Buy one at 99 cents and get 20 for free with shipping costs being equivalent to a car payment!), but even though they were cheap I still got robbed.
David points out the influence of Tchaikovsky in they way percussion drops out towards the end. Tchaikovsky does this in Swan Lake, Romeo and Juliet and 1812. And the missing cymbal crash at the end of the Fourth Symphony, which some conductors insist on "correcting". But there is another way the finale of Sibelius 3 connects with Tchaikovsky. In the third movement of the Pathetique, little fragments of a tune swirl about in a scherzo and gradually coalesce into a march, just like in the Sibelius finale.
Really informative and helpful in the musical appreciation of this piece. Many thanks.
Such a beautiful piece, full of life and feeling.
Thanks so much for this. I got into Sibelius as a student with Bernstein and the Davis-Boston set with Edvard Munch on the box. I ended up playing the Davis 3rd more than anything else, especially the hypnotic last movement that can't stop until it just does. It seems limitless, like infinity in miniature. Must get your book!
Bless you! This is my favorite Sibelius symphony. I adore the 2nd movement.
I know that the 3rd is less considered by some people. But it's the symphony with which I always begin a new Sibelius' cycle, because I think it's quite difficult to conduct well.
The NZSO under Inkinen is well-paced with no glitches in the syncopated passages one hears in some recordings. Such a pleasure to hear from this Orchestra, which does not always please live (having said that, they have improved markedly over the past 20 years or so). My first ever memory of any 'classical' music was a recording of the Karelia Suite by the NZBC Symphony Orchestra (as the NZSO was named in the 1960s) which I played on my grandmother's gramophone player in a place called Taumarunui. I moved onto Tchaikovsky pieces on the same record, but the Karelia Suite has stuck in my memory. Sibelius' music is an undertone in Lilburn and, for me at least, harmonizes with New Zealand landscapes. Brilliant reviews - I have listened to most of the recordings, warming surprisingly to the NY Phil Bernstein, but for me the Davis Boston is hard to beat as it delivers in all three movements.
These wonderful talks are hard on my pocket book, but VERY easy on my ear. I love Sibelius, and never knew about the popularity of the third or lack thereof, having always enjoyed it. But Maazel does work some magic that raises my love for the third to new heights. Thank you!
You're very welcome.
Sibelius' 3rd is probably
his most beautiful!
Thank you Mr. Hurwitz for these explanations🙏
I just received the Maazel/Third Pittsburgh disc. Wow! Yes, you can get it separately - with The Swan of Tuonella, Karelia Suite, Valse Trists, and -- an incredible Finlandia. Two things areamazing about this Third symphony recording -- I never knew Sibelius wrote something akin to dance music. I was bopping along listening to this baking some caraway rye bread in my stand mixer--- it was fast and catchy. I would call Sibelius many things, but a composter of dance music -- NEVER! Second, this has to be one of the best digital recordings ever. I could hear the flute in the first movement floating along spatially in my listeing room -- with standard equipment. And those cymbals at the end of Finlandia -- wow! This, as an indiviidual symphony, has to be one of my two favorite aquistions of Sibelius based on your recommendations recently -- together with the Iceland Symphony Orchestra Sibelius 6 and 7. Anyone who enjoys symphonic music should aquiare this recording.
Thank you for this video. I’m not familiar with this symphony yet but what I've heard and your thoughts are so fascinating I feel like this symphony might just become my next musical obsession. I'll be listening to the recordings you recommend and find my personal favourite.
Youre so right! His Third has a special place in my heart❤️. He really broke through with it! I was amazed at the score. Love legend of the kalevala too! I was biking home at night under a windy fall full moon trying to stay ahead of the lightning and rain that was coming when I first heard the lemminkeinen.
The Rattle/BPO CD-DVD box has a wonderful 3rd… the rest of the cycle is not memorable, but I really like this 3rd, His tempo in the Andantino is great, he really features the rhythmic beauties of the bass lines…
While the 7th is my favorite, I love the 3rd. And the 6th, when it comes to that. But then I've never heard anything by Sibelius that didn't enthrall me. One slight point of order. While Lönnrot was the first to write down the Kalevala poems, they date from ancient Finnish oral tradition, one scholarly theory being that the first of them is 3,000 years old. Lönnrot took his meter from that oral tradition and I'm sure Sibelius was well aware of it. Which takes nothing from his brilliant translation of that tradition into his music which your essay beautifully appreciates.
A terrific analysis of an ineffably great work. In fact it was the Third (via the Davis/BSO recording) that many years ago opened my ears to Sibelius' mature style--along with the Sixth, with which it was paired on that Phillips recording. I've never quite understood why these two symphonies, which to me represent the very essence of the composer, are so elusive to many listeners--and conductors. Beecham did a great Sixth, and so I'm surprised he dodged no. 3. Karajan, on the other hand, dodged no. 3 but gave us two amazing Sixths. In any case, you have sold me on the Segerstam; from the examples you played his version really hits the target. Another hit to my bank account! Otherwise its back to Davis, Kamu and Berglund. Thanks so much!
Have played 5 of the Sibelius symphonies with Okko. He is a wonder. The only problem with his 1st highly rated third is that in the finale the timpani ruin things by being tuned to H instead of C. Shocking that it wasn't noticed/ fixed by anyone responsible for quality control.....
The Kamu 3rd was fantastic...I had the cassette coupled w his 1st.
It was just one of my most favorite recordings
Was patiently waiting for this talk! I think the last movement feels like a giant coda that is incredibly uplifting and regal yet somewhay abstract.
Btw I definitely recommend this for driving or walking/running with a pair of headphones.This symphony is bursting with kinetic energy and movement.
Very nice video…going to be performing this soon..nice to hear it analyzed…started out not liking it..ended up loving it…thanks!
The Third is my favorite Sibelius Symphony. Eugene Ormandy said "he didn't understand it." What's not to understand? The First Movement reminds me of a joyful sleigh ride in a forest during Winter. Your comments and your choices are spot on, some of which are new to me. There are two live performances on TH-cam that I also very much like, those of Jaime Martin and Esa-Pekka Salonen.
Interesting, for me the first mvt was always more about a warm sunny day near the sea, not winter at all :)
I admire Ormandy for his honesty. Most conductors never let their lack of understanding stop them from conducting it anyway.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I strongly agree with this. If you don’t get it, don’t perform it, and certainly don’t record it. I respect the conductors (there have been a few) who plainly and publicly said they don’t get Mahler 7 and thus steer clear. Of course, there have been several who don’t get it and record it anyway, generally with predictably mediocre results.
@@AlexMadorsky Same applies to Mahler VIII - the people who think it's kitschy end up making kitschy-sounding recordings. Don't like it? Don't do it. Nobody's holding a gun to your head.
@@marknewkirk4322 yep. Although I like Dave’s analogy of mostly needing a good traffic cop to conduct Mahler’s 8th, in its own way it imposes a lot of interpretive challenges. There’s something amiss when classical music culture leads to the “Symphony of A Thousand” bring so readily recorded and performed by maestros and ensembles that just aren’t up to the task. Much as I love Bruckner and Mahler, I find it difficult to quibble with the notion there’s too much of it about these days. That said, if any live performances of Mahler 7 happen within a 500 mile radius of my home, you can bet your bottom dollar I’ll be there.
Excellent discussion of this great work. And one other piece of advice for conductors about the end that should not be needed but too often is: do not speed up!
I have always loved the Third and like it much more than the First or Second Symphony. Such a marvel! My current favorite recordings are Blomstedt/San Francisco you mentioned, followed by Vanska/Lahti. My first exposure on LP was Maazel/Vienna and the Davis/Boston-all great performances of this most misunderstood work. Thanks for your enlightened discussion, especially tying it and other Sibelius works to the Kalevala.
When I was first becoming familiar with the Sibelius symphonies, the 3rd was the one that most immediately appealed to me. That opening theme is irresistably cheerful (somehow it brought to my mind a snow-fed brook flowing through a meadow in early spring) and the second movement is so calm. Based on the versions I've heard, I'd have to concede Dave's point about the final movement being hard to get right, but I still love the symphony.
The fact that the work has tricky spots (what piece doesn't?) certainly doesn't mean that you should love it less!
Brilliant. I've never really gotten a handle on Sibelius's melodic writing. I have noticed that he sometimes extends a phrase by a couple of notes before abruptly lopping it off. But the "Kalevala tune" opens up a lot more to me.
This a beautiful performance.
Karajan and Kamu available in iTunes/Apple Music in Lossless format (ALAC, ie. CD quality) AND you can also download the Maazel/PittSO in apple's lossless CD quality, both the full set and individual #3 with a couple of other fillers that may or may not be good
It's hard to believe that Sibelius went into such a long retirement from composing. Just think of the beautiful symphonies which were never written because of that.
Pietari Inkinen was Musical Director of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra for a number of years and, during that time, he gave many performances of the Sibelius symphonies and they were always highly enjoyable, as I was a regular subscriber to the concerts then. When he recorded them for Naxos, I bought the set and have found them somewhat colourless, despite excellent orchestral playing and recording and I don't recall being especially impressed with the performance of the third.. However, I must admit I haven't listened to them for some time now so should really play them all again and my opinion might change.
Thank you very much. I have been belatedly discovering Sibelius having been very fond of the 6th since a teenager and now in my 60s partly thanks to you got to really appreciate the 5th and 2nd and now the 3rd.
Sibelius 3 was the first of his symphonies that I got to know (Maazel/VPO) and of course it has remained a firm favourite along with his 7th. Sibelius and Berlioz are my two top favourite composers of all time despite the almost overwhelming competition. 😂
I grew up with the Colin Davis Boston Sibelius 3rd on an LP coupled with the 6th. Those two are the least known Sibelius numbered symphonies, and they somehow always ended up on the same LP.
The movement endings of 6 disturbed me much more than the endings of 3. The sixth is a truly strange (yet wonderful) piece. It just refuses to do what you want it to do - like a teenage child.
The endings of the outer movements of the 3rd are, in a way, almost too obvious. The magic of the Maazel/Pittsburgh endings is that he isn't embarrassed by the obviousness. He does what the composer says. And Sibelius's endings really do work, obvious or not.
Absolutely on-point. You HAVE to follow Sibelius literally and just let Mvts 1&2 of the 6th STOP...just STOP. The audience will have no idea in hell what's happening..but that's just the way it goes. Same with #3-- you must fully embrace the big "A-MEN" cadence at the end of Mvt 1--No Apologies..EVEN THOUGH (as Dave points out), Sibelius specifically indicates that the Tympani DIE AWAY on the final chord of Mvts 1 & 3; what kind of big ending climax is THAT?? It really kills the grandiose effect..the bottom just drops out of the entire orchestra. But Maestro Hurwitz offers a convincing rationale for this.
Years ago I played tympani in the Sibelius Third (at a summer festival in Taos, NM); it was the final work on the final program of the year (conducted by a guy named Yuri Krasnopolsky). I actually wrestled with it...do I honor Sibelius' intentions, or do I barrel away full volume in the final measure, in order to bring the work AND the festival to a rousing conclusion?? Well, I'm happy to report all these years later that I put my head down...solemnly..as I played the final roll, and faithfully observed the diminuendo...until the tympani were inaudible. DON'T ASK why he wrote it that way, but he did...and it's RIGHT.
LR
@@HassoBenSoba I actually explain why he wrote it that way, and it does not diminish the work in the least, or undermine a grandiosity that the music doesn't have anyway. It just stops it, and very effectively in my opinion, in a timeless glow of light. Keeping the roll going also keeps the tempo going, which is the opposite of what Sibelius wants.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Absolutely. Actually, I was playing "devil's advocate" above, voicing the common reaction of those who don't appreciate this symphony. And, as I added: ..."Maestro Hurwtiz offers a convincing rationale for this"...which you've just made even MORE convincing ("timeless glow of light"; I like that). And having been on both sides of those tympani rolls (playing AND conducting them), I heartily second your views. FYI-- when I conducted the 3rd, I had to remind my tympanist more than once to observe the "dims" at the end of 1 and 3. Nice guy, too..he wasn't being stubborn; it just went so strongly against his instincts.
It was with this symphony that I first "got" Sibelius, and it remains the one I like the most. After your analysis, I understand a bit better what attracts me!
I've loved the Sibelius third ever since I first heard it on a Decca/London LP with Maazel and the VPO. My current favorite is the Gibson/SNO recording coupled with very good recordings of the 6th and 7th symphonies. I particularly like the way Gibson keeps things moving in the two outer movements. Like Maazel with the VPO, he doesn't try to morph them into a heavy romantic framework.
I was going to post a comment about Gibson/SNO but you beat me to it. He builds up the finale brilliantly. I also really like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia in this symphony. The entrance of the horns in the first movement is thrilling!
Your commentary on Sibelius' symphonies is on point as always, David. When I am trying to explain it to myself why such big conductors as Ormandy and Karajan never felt passion for this particular symphony, I think that the Third really lacks heaviness and profoundness for them. You can compare it to the Sixth which is also very light and neat but towards the finale it becomes violent and in the end sad. Or the Fifth which is generally optimistic and pastoral but in the coda Sibelius throws in a powerful dissonance and the mood of the work changes entirely. The third doesn't have it at all. The second mvt is kind of somber and introvertal but it is so repetitive and without any climax, it's just flowing and flowing endlessly and then stops (I believe Sibelius made it in such a way on purpose, as in many other works, to depict state of mind rathen than a journey).
That is my perception of the 2nd movement too. I feel it a bit monotonous, but I do admit that it's quite atmospheric.
This is the first piece that drew me into Sibelius. It is my favorite and I rarely hear the ending done the way I first heard it. Mark Elder with the Halle Orchestra in a BBC Magazine recording. Very compelling listening. Thank you for these videos!
I love sibelius 3. My favorite of his symphonies. Pure magic. The second movement appeals to me the most. I love sanderling, kondarshin and gibson the most. Their second movement is the fastest I've heard, and that is one of the things I love about their performances. I think fast tempo works really good in the second movement of this piece. Slower tempos tend to annoy me, put me to sleep. Great talk as always!
Just discovered this channel on researching on SIbelius 3rd. I am going to listen to it at the Walt DIsney Hall next weekend and I wanted to be able to understand it more at the concert.
this was a great explanation! thanks!
Osmo Vanska will conduct btw
Enjoy the concert!
Have been there and was much impressed by Vanska's insight. Love Vanska no matter how much Dave is disparaging him.
I love love LOVE the 3rd. Including the final portion, even though the ending may indeed be a bit unsatisfactory.
It is my favorite Sibelius symphony! I like it more than the second too!
Sanderling and the Berlin Symphoniker were surprizingly lovely( Sibelius Cycle)
Oh, the third is always a favorite of mine, with that catchy opening frase. On a side note, a well-known author, at least in Dutch Circles, Simon Vestdijk, wrote an essay of his 7 Symphonies, ranking Nr. 5 as first. Well, I love them all. Vivat Sibelius!
Absolutely love this symphony and your talk is brilliant. Never could understand why this marvellous treasure is eclipsed in popularity by Nos 1 & 2. My only misgiving is the finale which seems to be cut short. Having it just stop is as you say, is fine. But it is such a wonderful, deeply gorgeous creation I wish it could go on longer. This may be sacrilegious to suggest but could not some innovative musicologist weave in a some repeats or extra development into the 2nd half of the finale to extend the pleasure? As it is, I can only bear listening to the slower performances or it's over far too quickly.
I like it. 3rd is an acquired taste. I had been listening to the 3rd around the time my mother died. Now, the melody in the 2nd movement always reminds me of her.
I’ve always felt a special affinity for the 3rd (The same goes for the first movement of the Kullervo Symphony, but in a different way). Great analysis, David! P.S. I’ve heard other of the Symphonies by Maazel/Pittsburgh and was very disappointed, especially after the Vienna cycle which is superb. So recommending the Pitt recording shocked me. I’ve got to hear it!
I've always loved it (quite naïvely, apparently). Perhaps it does taper off at the end...but generally I think it's amazing!
So glad you did the Sibelius 3rd. Its my favorite. i've loved it since i heard Maazel with the VPO. That's better than the Pittsburgh version, i think. The whole Pittsburgh cycle is a disaster in all senses, and i heard Maazel many times there and i liked many of his "personnalized" performances, like his very slow d minor symphoy.
I don't think the Vienna version is better than Pittsburgh, that that is the only Pittsburgh recording in that cycle that really works.
I always loved the third symphony. And my favourite version ? Maazel in Pittsburgh ! Yes ! I have only one CD with Maazel/Pittsburgh, his Vienna cycle is much better.
Best wishes from Northern Germany
That was magnificent Dave…thank you so much. My first cycle was the Maazel VPO one back in the 80s and I had come to Sibelius after hearing chunks of his popular tone poems conducted by Rozhdestvensky on cassette. Then the Ashkenazy Philharmonia 2nd again on cassette. I cannot begin to express my feelings when I first heard the Maazel 3rd (it was as if I had nothing to hold on to). I have never quite liked the first Maazel 3rd though revisiting it has helped. I somehow thought the Rattle version was better but I haven’t heard that in ages. Maazel in Pittsburg was a different story altogether of course along with your usual suspects. I love the Saraste as well…
Hi after writing my comment went back and heard the Rattle CBSO Third again…nope my memory was playing tricks with me. It was one of the better performances of the cycle but still could do with some more energy. Thanks again Dave, listened to multiple 3rd s today after your inspiring talk…cheers
Thought I had every orchestral piece Sibelius ever wrote, but somehow I missed Pohjola's Daughter. Must rectify. As for the third, I'm blessed with two fine recordings, the Kamu and Gibson with the Scottish National on lp. Because of the symphony's dedication (to Bantock) pundits at that time liked to call it Sibelius's English Symphony and Tovey thought the first movement's development sounded like fog-banks drifting along the English coast. Fair enough, we're all entitled to personal music associations and fancies, but I find David's links to the Kalevala far more convincing.
Gibson is wonderful. I only left it out to make room for some performers and cycles I hadn't mentioned.
I found the Maazel/Pittsburgh Sibelius 3 on Amazon, on a single Sony disc, coupled with Tapiola, Finlandia, Valse Triste, and the Karelia Suite. The performance of the symphony is, as you say, fabulous; energetic (yes), expressive in the right places, and extremely well played. Thanks for brining this to our attention.
The couplings are okay but mostly mannered and, in spots somewhat sluggish. Maazel's Karelia suite pales in comparison to Kamu on DG (second movement is a snooze). But, the disc is worth having for the symphony.
David - thanks for a valuable talk - RayGinn
Streaming Maazel/Pittsburgh. Good call! Love this piece. Sibelius has one of my favorite minds in music. He's one of those rare artists who really do create their own language. As for form, I read a guide describing last movement as a combination scherzo (first half) and chorale finale (second half). To me, the chorale finale is always latent within the scherzo. It's constantly threatening to break out of it, like the chestburster in "Alien."
This was another great video, Dave. I have Davis/BSO for this one. :)
BTW, I felt like a kid on Christmas morning when I opened up the box that the UPS man brought me today: Bruno Walter The Complete Columbia Album Collection, Richard Bonynge Complete Ballet Recordings, plus the latest release in the ongoing Nelsons/BSO Shostakovich cycle. I do wish I had gotten the chance to get George Szell The Complete Columbia Album Collection. And now, it's gone. :( So I couldn't pass up the chance to get the Bruno Walter box!
Have fun, and take your time. These are sets to savor.
Berglund with Bournemouth is the Sibelius 3rd I imprinted on, and I haven’t heard it’s equal. In Berglund’s hands, the 3rd sounds like a serious, sensitive masterpiece. Not every conductor can make the 3rd sound that good, but Blomstedt comes close. Lenny’s 3rd with the NYPO on Sony isn’t too shabby; didn’t realize he actually recorded this work with Vienna/DG.
He didn't--I was talking about his later Sibelius generally.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ah, that makes more sense. Thanks.
It wouldnt have suited quite Lennys later style...
I thoroughly like the 3rd Symphony and have never had any worries about it, except that it needs care with the interpretation, like many great pieces. I don't prefer it to the other symphonies - it's simply different. Sibelius' style evolved so much. "Neoclassical" describes it perfectly. Some days depending on my mood I'll want to listen to the 3rd, on others to the 1st or 2nd, or 5th or 7th, or even 4th or 6th ... oh hang on, that's the lot.
Good someone finally says the obvious: 3 is better than 2.
Have been listening to this symphony quite frequently lately. The points you raise are interesting. I'm not quite sure but I believe this symphony could be a bit of a farewell to Helsinki. The music, particularly in the end, reflects the new neoclassical architecture of the city...
Oops, hadn't heard the Lorin Maazel version. Will listen today, sitting at the lake of the summer cottage...
Why would he be saying farewell to Helsinki (or anyplace for that matter)?
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's a bit longer story...
@@WMAlbers1 3 was composed about the time he retreated to his new-build outside Jarvenpaa to get away from the temptations of Helsinki and to concentrate more on his work.
The Okko Kamu of Sibelius 3 was released with Symphony 1 on a DG Musikfest budget CD. I've gotten to appreciate the Third Symphony, after loving the other ones. You make great points about the piece
And it's been out of print for decades. The Musikfest release was way, way, way before the latest reissues I mentioned.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I know, just mentioning the Musikfest. I don't think I ever saw the disc again after I bought my copy.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It is available however in a DG Trio set with all symphonies (Kamu for 1,2 and 3, Karajan for 4,5,6 and 7)
@@luukmarcus I said that in the video, and that is also out of print.
Just to let you know, the box set with Kamu is available on Amazon as is HIs single disc coupling of 1 & 3
A superb symphony, full of delicacy, intimacy and positivity - don't miss Simon Rattle with the CBSO bringing so much detail and sunlight to this joyous work! Those final chords are SO uplifting in Rattle's reading...
Thanks, DAVE. Really
The 3rd may be my favourite, too. Always loved the slow movement. I sometimes wondered whether that extended intro to the finale is actually a sort of scherzo (third movement) from which the finale emerges.
David.
As soon as you mentioned Maazel's Pittsburgh recording, searches for Maazel Sibelius Pittsburgh on a company named after a river's website suddenly appeared. "Sibelius: Symphony No. 3, Finlandia, Karelia Suite & Swan of Tuonela" (Sony Classical SK 61963, 1996) is now (in digital format chiefly, I would think) # 9 on their Symphonies best seller lists. The other 8 slots are occupied by (#1) BSO/Nelsons Shostakovitch 1, 14, 15; 4 drecklische classical comps; 2 versions of a set of four seventeeth century violin concertos about the time of year; and Lenny's Gershwin twofer.Your Best Box Sets video is still rippling through the marketplace.
Interesting!
Shortly before his death Maestro Maazel told the story, in a radio interview, of how he disliked the music of Sibelius for many years but eventually realized that he had been wrong. I really admire his honesty.
he also admitted he didn't 'get' Mahler 7. he did it though...
@@classicalperformances8777 That was one of two Mahler symphonies that I didn't take to quickly. Now I can't get enough of them.
@@stevecook8934 which is the other one?
@@classicalperformances8777 3
Talking about Maazel, David, I'd like to know what do you think about his two Mahler's cycles (Vienna Phil and Philharmonia). Maazel can do the best and the worst (for example, I love his Sibelius in Vienna, his early recordings on DG, and most of his Cleveland recordings), so I don't know what to expect...
Not the topic for this conversation, but it's highly variable and often perverse.
Have you ever heard Ashkenazy with Stockholm Philarmonia in Exton sacd? I think is very good performance but I would be interesting about your opinion. He has made the hole cycle of Sibelius.
Thank you for your comments.
As a classical newbie, I hear the “cello vroom” bass [Edit: followed by staccato horn] that was previewed in the fourth movement of Symphony no. 2, but fortunately not sustained there too long.
I’m listening to 3rd movement of one of Berglund’s thirds, waiting for the d*mned tune to coalesce… yes, I’m a rock fan who gets itchy at songs lasting more than 6 minutes… okay, more horns, this IS Sibelius.. starting to hear the bass cello “vroom” intermittently… maybe the sample you provided has more prominent “vroom” … horn and woodwind sections strutting their stuff over string ?ostinato … hmm, no more vroom, and a soft landing. Okay, what is the technical term for what I call the bass/base (continuo?) cello vroom?
All the best.
I care about it. The central movement is very similar to that of the 5th, which is much more popular, but, although I prefer the 5th as a whole, I prefer the central movement of the 3rd.
Dear Maestro Hurwitz, many many thanks for this talk about one of my favourite Sibelius symphonies. BTW, since you mentioned it, is there any hope for a talk about Dvorak 6th? :-)
The 3rd and 6th have always evaded me.
The 6th is a wonderful work. I've heard it described as old man's music. Another time as prep notes for the 7th. I think those comments are unfair. It is a strange other-world of a symphony. But then all Sib's symphonies are distinct and inhabit their particular worlds.
The theme just before the end of the 1st mvmt sounds very much like one of the “Lord of the Rings” themes. And given the Kalevala influence on Tolkien, why not? Knowing who to steal from, and why, can sometimes be half the game.
Listening to the 3rd from the Maazel Pittsburgh cycle now on Spotify, which is included as part of the box (digitally). Interesting to note that the first movement of the 2nd has 2,573 plays, and the first movement of the 3rd has 28,358. Either a lot of people are in on what you know about this performance, or you've gotten it 25,000 additional plays.
Hmmm. That is interesting.
I have always loved the 2nd movement. Stalwart, if a bit nostalgic, peasants gathering in the cathedral that is their forest -- lovely and even invigorating, surprisingly enough.
The thing I like about Maazel’s two accounts is he seems to understand that as an andantino, it’s not a dirge. Some conductors drag it out. For me, it’s not so much as a slow movement as a slower movement.
It may not be as idiomatic as those you recommend and maybe not so 'integrative' (how to put it?) of the Kalevala way to construct the flow but what about Paul Kletzki with the Philharmonia? I find him natural, a little romantic but not sentimental mysterious, epic (the last chords) and the Philharmonia textures come IMO so well even by Karajan standards. Perhaps the recording not a modern one. I would bet it as one of the best records I ever heard. Prefer it to the Kamu you mention. Just heard Sarastre on ORF 01 with the Vienna Symphony. So organic. Hope next year I make my way to the hall. Than you for your insights of Sibelius uniqueness.
Surprising that you say there isn't really a bad 3rd and most of recordings available are (at least) quite good. Of all the symphonies, it is the third I have felt least comfortable with and I always put that down to unsatisfactory conductings of it. I found attending concerts of it a better experience than sitting by the Hi-fi. And the range of interpretative freedom evident across hearings is wide and with this symphony (I find) disconcerting.
I wouldn't change a note. Maybe conductors didn't think they could put their stamp on it.
Bro I love Sibelius 3.
You can get the Maazel/Pittsburgh as a single $10 album on iTunes!
And its on Spotify as well!
I have spent decades believing that no one loved this symphony except me. Now I see how wrong I was. I particularly like Barbirolli's performance with Halle.
It's great that you love the Third, but there are many better versions than Barbirolli's.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Mmmm... I'd have to review my wide Sibelian discography, but I'm afraid our respective rankings are a bit different. Anyway, I like some of the versions you mention: Kamu, Segerstam, Blomstedt...
Dave - do you think it is fair to say that recordings of Sibelius' work overall are more superior than those of most composers - I am thinking consistency. I mean, how many outstanding symphony cycles do we have access to? Wonderful stuff. Great talk as usual. Happy Friday everybody!
I think he's been very fortunate, but no, I don't think you can make any such generalization.
These videos never fail in giving you new insights in the music you know and love. Thanks, Dave!
I came to like the 3rd in the old performance of Kamu, part of his shared cycle with Karajan. A bright, lively performance that emphasizes the classical elements of the symphony - maybe its approach to the music is a bit one-sided - since then I heard a lot of other recordings that sound much darker and maybe those manage to bring out the multi-layered and multi-interpretative qualities of the symphonies a bit more. But Kamu is still fabulous, of course.
The main problem with the 3rd is for me that it's a rather unbalanced piece. You've got two expansive movements of about the same length followed by a third that's a couple of minutes shorter, but consists of two movements fused into one. The scherzo part is fine, and long enough too - but the finale is just way too short. You want that glorious tune to go on for at least 5 more minutes, with some new material providing contrast. Of course it's great as it is, but still... Bruckner's 7th has the same problem, a less than perfect balance between the 2 first and the 2 last movements. (Which can partly be solved by playing the scherzo and finale as a quasi-whole, as some conductors do - or even switching the order of the inner movements, hello Colin Davis...)
Unrelated, but very annoying - why does it take TH-cam so long to provide automatic subtitles for longer videos? As an ESL, I really need those, since my hearing isn't great, and I always prefer reading over listening. But in this case, it takes 4 days for the CC subs to appear, and that when it's so interesting that I want to enjoy it right away... aargh!
👏👏👏👏👏♥️♥️♥️
Separately… now you have me looking for Kalevala tunes in all Sibelius - bum…bum…bum bum bum - my technical knowledge sorely lacking, is that 5/8?