Permaculture Food Forest - Considering Succession and other elements
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- www.edibleacres.org
pfaf.org - great resource for researching plants for guilds
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Edible Acres is a full service permaculture nursery located in the Finger Lakes area of NY state. We grow all layers of perennial food forest systems and provide super hardy, edible, useful, medicinal, easy to propagate, perennial plants for sale locally or for shipping around the country…
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Happy growing!
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I really really hope you know and understand how significant your impact is having on us small gardner's around the world. You are literally changing the planet for the better. Even though you will probably never see my little wildlife garden I made .it has a little pond .sweet cicely. Mullen. Native Ash / oak / apple/ hazel. Comfey. Fig / lemon/ all grown from seed .all thanks to you and your family .on behalf of mine blessings and love from Ireland 🇮🇪 💚🌱
I second your comment! Learning from this channel has changed my life for the better. Thank you guys for taking the time and energy to share with the world! 💙
I agree. There is a bit of the edible acre thumbprint in my gardens and chicken yard
So appreciate this note, and thank YOU for planting all the characters you have in your landscape. There are so so many of us out there experimenting and growing and learning, it feels amazing to be part of it all!
So true 👍💛
Very well said. I learn so much from them. God bless you and thank you!
What a wonderful place to be a plant. I would dearly love a glimpse of the insect / bird life in that paradise. I’m sure you see plenty going on. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Insects have a super hard time lately everywhere it seems, but the populations are rebounding in this space. Birds are immensely present, it's fun!
Seeing the abundance in 2 short years is incredible
I'm still getting used to it, it's moving so so fast!
I wouldn't say that was long winded at all. Personally, I've always enjoyed the slightly longer videos where we get to see a natural sort of movement through the landscape. It gives a good perspective not only on how the plants are interacting, but how you move through and interact with the areas on a regular basis as well.
Nice to get affirming on the longer videos, thanks!
"A walk in the garden". Very natural and informative!
One thing is for sure, your neighbour's yard is no longer a lawn. Just yesterday I was rewatching the transformation videos, happy to see the update. So much growth! 🤗🤗🤗
It really has moved in some remarkable ways. We're really pleased with it!
@@edibleacres I think some people wouldn't even believe it's only been planted since 2020, hardly to imagine this was once a lawn. So nice you've documented it. Your neighbour has much more privacy and noise control now with that green alive 'barricade' in front of the road. Plus LOTS of food.😎
Thanks Sean! Once again you've guided me with what I have to do next in my own swale food forest. I'm going to really up the willow, elderberry and currant cuttings and spread them all around as you've demonstrated there. Also nice to see the comparison between gardens and the diversity that can be introduced over time. Love your work!!
I always feel like I'm getting away with something when I buy one plant and multiply it by taking cuttings. :D
Hi Linda, a friend of mine has sheep, too and we have a very ver dry summer here in Germany, again. It's the start of the summer but the grass is already dying. So we started talking "tree fodder", as she mentioned that her sheep loved to eat willow. But "just willow" is not very healthy, either. Anyway, I told her to check out, what other tree fodder would be good for her sheepies and plant more of that - like poplar, black locust and mullberry, but there must be many more. That just jumped to mind reading your comment :)
@@dogslobbergardens6606 me, too 😊
So glad you found it useful! Yeah, always a win to keep adding plants, especially from cuttings!
I use red clover as a n fixer, green manure in my garden. Feels great on your feet, and keeps ground temps cooler. Also buckwheat for pollinators etc in the sunflower patch.
I have also found a good amount of success mixing those three character together. The combination has really helped with the compacted clay soil that wasn't draining well in my backyard. I'm hoping to save seed later this summer, and double down on the plantings for next year.
We could do well to establish permanent, N-fixing ground covers in these areas... Once the hay starts to falter I think we'll explore that.
The red clover is beautiful too! I've got one that the birds brought to me! The plants near it are doing really well!!!
Big fan of red clover, buckwheat and sunflowers here too!
Also garlic for helping break up the clay
It's cool to see you taking years to develop the layers. Thanks for sharing what you do.
It's a bit like layering time as well as space.
I did the same with my daikon cover crop! Let a few small beds with new trees and shrubs go to seed this summer. People are looking at me like I’m crazy (front yard suburbia) but I can’t get over the dual purpose pollinator support and compaction breaker. Plus soil cover. Good-ish minds think alike lol
Really great to leave at least a few to overwinter, grow again, flower and set seed too!
I am planning to try this
We recently moved back to the Finger Lakes from the Rocky Mountains high west desert. We are so glad to be back and your channel is helping me to learn more about gardening locally. I am glad to hear you consider it hot and dry this year, I was thinking that, but I just don't have your perspective.
Welcome back to the area, and wishing you great success in your growing.
I live on one of the smallest lawns you have ever seen. However I ditched the lawn a year ago. I was fully expecting the HOA to pitch a fit, but they've been silent. I now have so many trees planted that in a couple years it will look like a forest. However I need to come up with some nitrogen fixers. I figure I'll need some kind of bush. Right now I just grow peanuts and beans wherever I want an infusion. However I don't have any perineal nitrogen fixers. It all started with cardboard, wood chips, and coffee/tea grounds. I think I'm up to about 3 dozen trees now and the yard is still only a postage stamp. There's also bushes, bananas, vines, pineapples and cactus plants too.
You can always just be your own nitrogen fixer :)
check out goumi or autumn olives (if "legal" where you live...) or seabuckthorn. I also use my ornamental wisteria to chop 'n' drop, as that beast must be restricted to the trellis and garden fence anyway.
So glad you are doing that work and making it happen... SO SO important, thanks!
Maybe worth looking at Senna, Baptisia, Lupine, Bundle Flower as some options of N-fixing chop and drop candidates...
@@Dontreallycare5 or nitrogen releaser, depending on how you look at it 🙃
Really inspired by your chicken permaculture and composting system. I spent the weekend making hoops and cages to put in my pen. I also planted fruit trees and berries. I’ll video it and give you credits in a few weeks.
Come on spring!
My favorite first annual to establish succession is potatoes, as I know you're already aware. I love how well they crowd out weeds and grasses, offer incredible yield and nutrition, then the act of harvesting itself offers a chance to really mix all the organic matter deep into the soil for future plantings. It's like if comfrey also filled the root cellar and was gone the next year!
They really are a great 'gateway' plant to get out of a weedy or lawn covered area. Glad you found that to be the case, too!
I've tried many ways to outcompete grass in a 2 acre old-field to create garden beds. Growing potatoes in hay is by far the BEST and EASIEST way I've tried, and you get a yield! The bed is then ready for a cover crop or whatever you want to try the following year. I learned it from this channel! So grateful!
I am utterly overwhelmed with your knowledge. I don't think I'm capable of this level of permaculture. I watch nearly every episode from the beginning. It's absolutely the best thing in its category!!
The sentiment being conveyed is wonderful!🤗💛🤗
Yes thank you for all your teaching and demonstration, my favorite channel that i recommend to people i know around me here in SW New Mexico high desert! a little different context yet all applicable in so many ways ! may you be blessed for your kindness.
THanks for the kind words and for sharing what we're up to :)
I've wanted a food for us for a couple years now, both for us and our chickens and quail. thank you so much for the resources and ideas
So happy to share!
Love the mullein in this video. Your bees will be happy!
What a great plant!
I really love the admonition at the end of the video. I've got a good bit of material with my system going into its 2nd year. It makes me want to get more propogated and started from seed to fill in gaps.
Best of luck!
Love seeing the layout of your garden, helps keep me inspired & not overwhelmed with our space, thank you!
PFAF is a tremendous resource. I can't say enough about the importance of propagating your own and developing the network for sharing/exchanging for plant variety.
Yes!
Two things… I’m building my first air pruning box…and I’ve converted one of my raised garden beds to a propagation bed currently housing a few dozen willows! Thanks for all your tips!
So exciting! Best of luck with all this awesome work!
Thanks Sean for all the amazing info - I just purchased an old Farmhouse on 2 acre up in Hamilton, NY and I plan on turning one of the old pastures into a Food Forest, and another area into my own “Chickentopia” . Love your videos, thanks for all the great info and motivation !!!
Yay!
Amazing information thank you so kindly for sharing love the diversity of plants and trees
Always so happy to share with this wonderful community.
This was a great inspirational video! I have been spreading about 30 yards of wood chips across my front yard that I’m slowly trying to convert into a food forest. We have heavy clay acidic soil here in zone 7b the wood check do a great job revitalizing it. 2 years you have transformed this grass lot I’m really hoping to do the same! I’ve found blue and blackberry’s as well as peach and apple trees seem to grow well in our soil which is hopeful!
I think thats a really good and simple formula to move things forward... I plan to document that process actually today, we're on the same page!
Seriously love your videos!! They have been so informative and inspiring! I’m looking forward to trying lots of these ideas and techniques in my smallish suburban front and back yards! Thank you for sharing!
Good luck with your endeavors! Suburbia needs more people who have a decent understanding of what land can and should be used for - instead of just constantly mowing a lawn they never use for anything.
So very very happy to share, best of luck!
Thank you for all of your educational and encouraging content🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Of course!
Wonderful information.
Looks great the change is amazing! I need to get some social media going so you can see what I've done in my no till market garden since 2020. Lots of cover crops and woodchips.
Well done video showing how you transition through the first three stages of a forest succession. I’ve been looking at the same issues on my own channel, and what you quickly realize is that that creation is far from a true permaculture forest system, or perhaps that such a thing is largely a figment of our imaginations. Forests naturally go through many stages ultimately resulting in a Climax Forest, the attributes of which are unique for each region depending on many underlying factors such as soil type, heat, sunshine, water availability etc… managing transitions to our desires, like you are showing can be extremely beneficial and fruitful, and I do the same, but creating a food forest that is “permanent” is something else again. “Resiliency” and “Sustainability” are also very difficult to achieve and finding a good balance between stuff that works, but doesn’t take over or take immense amount of maintenance is very difficult indeed.
Very thoughtful notes here, much appreciated
Thanks Sean, great video, extremely helpful and informative!
So glad you found it helpful.
We just started our first little food forest style guild this last spring, with two elderberries and two paw-paws (all bare-root) in what was previously a small cow/horse pasture. Only one of the paw-paws took root so I will eventually plant at least one more nearby for better pollination. There is naturally-occurring mullein nearby and we moved some yarrow from another location to the guild area as well. And of course, a comfrey plant. I put a comfrey near pretty much every tree or bed/row we plant (buying a half-dozen chunks of comfrey root a few years ago may be the single best ROI I've ever made ;) ).
Yesterday evening I transplanted a couple unruly top secret heirloom tomatoes into that guild. Since they were quite long and the soil there is pretty shallow, I put them in small trenches on their sides with only about 8" of the tips rising above soil level. Letting that area produce something this year and continuing to build soil while those perennials get established feels very "waste not, want not" to me. :)
I really appreciate the versatility of this general approach. It's adaptable to so many locations and types of plants.
Thanks for sharing what you are up to and being a consistent contributor of ideas and comments on these videos, really appreciate your active role in our community and what you are doing in your landscape!
@@edibleacres oh stop, you're making me blush :o :D
All kidding aside, you're very welcome and thank you. I hope someone is encouraged and/or gets some ideas from our experience.
Thanks for taking that time. Summer is so beautiful in testing latitude climate zones. Australia is opposite of course. Winter here is your summer.
@EdibleAcres when you chop and drop say willow or Autumn olive, do you cut and place whole branches, strip the leaves and place them, or something else? Thanks for the great tour!
Really good question. Something I need to demonstrate in a more detailed way, but there is a video shared a little ways back that maybe can be helpful in the meantime?
th-cam.com/video/GU0zCWksA8U/w-d-xo.html
Happy growing Eric!
Your videos are amazing!!!!
So glad you enjoy!
Thanks great video
Thanks so much for sharing your experiencws and insight. Lovin' it. We've been putting these principles into practice for a few years now and are loving the results. We just wish we had more real estate.
Try some keyhole disturbance along the northern edge of paths with root/perennial herb/seedling plantings from your favorite fruit trees.
We have Ranch EB in zone 9a . What a resilient variety! Less than 11 inches rain in winter and spring only.
Ranch is a pretty rad type. Compact, beautiful leaves and rugged. Just took another hundred cuttings to put on bottom heat yesterday actually!
We're packing in what you see in most of these videos into a half acre, it is wonderful how much you can squeeze into small landscapes!
You're such an inspiration 🤗 👍
Thank you! 😊
I didn't know you could grow elderberries from cuttings! Very nice
Very very easy
You all farm/garden like my partner cooks -- intuitively, experimentally -- I'm more a recipe person. But I'm trying to learn and experiment with our mini food forest project. Thanks for your ongoing ideas and encouragement!
I think both ways of approaching things have deep value. Especially when they can work together!
Hi Sean! Thanks for another wonderful video! Your stuff is pure gold! I wonder if anyone here has worked with Atlantis altissima, tree of heaven, as a pioneer species to chop and drop? It’s obviously not some thing I’ve added by choice, but I’m turning a pretty rough sloped field into a swale and food forest system, And have pretty intense seeding from neighboring properties
I am interested in this tree since they grow so immensely fast. THey aren't very hardy to our area though.
I am sure it depends on your zone, conditions, and goals, but we had these in my last climate. They were awfully invasive, tons of pollen and seeds. Pretty much everyone called them trees of hell.
Super invasive and similar to walnuts in that they are allopathic, i would use something else!
How’s the big pond doing. Would love an update!
We can do that...
And the great videos keep coming. Thank you so so so much for the amazing wonderfully explained content. Would love to see some more poultry videos. I added heritage turkeys to my operation last year. Got some fertile eggs under the brudy hen they went. They eat a lot of what the chickens do not find tasteful
I am thinking about adding turkeys. I do not have chickens- I have an egg allergy. How do you find caring for turkeys? We have a highly wooded lot, I was wondering if they would roam or if I needed to treat them more like chickens.
@@ceedee2570so first I’d suggest researching the difference of heritage and normal turkeys. Normal turkeys are not able to live long and develop lots of health issues “broad breasted breeds” however heritage turkeys can live a long healthy life. They love to roam but can be kept in a run system like chickens with no issues. I would like to go more in depth than I could in the comment section. What social network would work for direct messages? I can post my social media or email here. Just let me know what platform works best!
Glad you like em! We'll do more videos on the chickens soon enough :)
Cool to have the turkeys integrated, seems very smart.
@@angelfromtheotherside1439 we are definitely thinking heritage breeds. I read they eat ticks and will range in taller grass/brush than other poultry. I'd love to learn more from you, if you care to share your email.
Your videos are super educational as always. I'd really appreciate a video on the kitchen side of sweet cicely--it just seems like such an odd little plant I don't know how exactly I'd use it, although I am starting to get a sense for it from googling around and watching your highlight video on it. Seems like a powerful friend, and I'd love to start incorporating it into our designs!
Thanks. We will keep this request in mind. We haven't worked with that plant too extensively but the young seed pods eaten fresh are stunningly sweet and enjoyable and the stalks are hollow and make any drink sweeter and more licorice-y!
This approach makes so much sense, I just wish I'd fully grasped the idea and implemented it earlier. We are on a hillside that was cleared for vineyards many decades ago so there is just impoverished sandy soil, all the good stuff got washed down the hill. This year I raked clear an area of tall native weeds and sowed clover to try to improve the soil and get a nice green clearing with a few existing fruit trees. These will now get a shrub layer, and the rakings, as luck would have it, ended up forming a nice, irregular perimeter around this area, comprising piled-up soil and raked plant matter, perfect to stick hardwood cuttings of elder, fig, black locust, plus some hazelnut, gooseberry, seaberry and anything else I can take root divisions from. And of course the plan is to chop and drop all this on an ongoing basis when it's somewhat established. It's going to be quite the transformation (it already is) and I hope will do wonders for the regeneration of this hillside.
(I did a brief segment about it in a video earlier this year: th-cam.com/video/zCFrGvEjxXg/w-d-xo.html - but it's looking way greener since then, despite the lack of rain, and full of wild flowers that I planted, it was just a tangle of dried grasses until this spring, can't wait to plant out that border this winter, it's going to be a lovely garden space, until the chestnuts take over, then we'll see what happens!)
Great approach, makes a ton of sense!
Very good update on the garden, what a difference from when you started years ago and the vigor in the plants, says I'm happy.
The new covering with the new plants and the wood chips is going to be interesting, just thinking out loud here do the wire mess covering have any affect on the sun light getting to the plants.... wondering????
Thx
I don't think that the wire mesh interrupts the light much at all for the young trees. They seem to be happy (hopefully!)
We’re in the same county, but I have a very very different environment than you. I have a lot of huge mature trees all around the boundaries of my property and the only sunnyish area is on top of an old stream bed. Sandy rocky dry shade is mostly what I have. So, poking cuttings into the ground has not worked with willow, elder, or currant. I need to visit pfaf (excellent resource!) and try a different set of bushy friends this fall.
So maybe less about putting cuttings directly in but rather establishing them in nursery beds can help you get the plants further along and ready to plant out as well rooted plants later... The huge trees can produce massive amounts of leaves which can be mulched around the plants, so they can be supportive.
I have those same poppies!
Great video on what a lawn can become! I was wondering if you have any experience growing over septic leach fields everyone says you shouldn’t have trees/ deep rooted plants or vegetables… just wondering if you have any insight. Thanks for all your great work…
I'm interested in this as well. Obviously, grass is okay on a leach field, so I assume annuals and herbaceous perennials are also okay. We had our leach field inspected (as part of a purchase) and it was called "very healthy". It has well-established woody shrubs in the vicinity, within a few feet, but not directly over the actual pipes. So, there's one data point.
At the moment, I'm just planning for that area to be the only grass left, eventually, but it's a prime location, so if I can plant more, I'll be happy to.
Same here. Going to be moving into a new home soon that has a sceptic system and I am curious if there are meaningful ways to interact with the system.
We had a new leach field put in about 6 years ago. The first few years we aimed for a grassy meadow (mowed twice per year) to reestablish the top soil and prevent erosion. Now we are planting the edge with small shrubs and I've had good luck with raised beds for flowers.
Some really basic ideas to consider over septic/leach...
Composting area if it is out of the way/shaded/etc
Sheet mulched thoroughly and permanent deep raised beds built for annuals to grow
Air prune boxes for nursery and propagation work
Wildflower meadow
herbaceous perennial nursery area
So many options!
@@edibleacres So many options! Thanks for follow up.
While I love and appreciate all your videos, this one is one of my recent favorites. It really helped me grok a few concepts that I've been mulling over for a bit.
One thing we continue to struggle with in our first year on a new site is grasses springing up through just about any mulch we put down. Nothing short of cardboard seems to slow it. I know in time this will become less and less as our shrub layer fills in, but do you have any tips in particular for dealing with grasses you have learned from this transition project?
Mulch! Early on in transitioning from a lawn space to perennial grasses can be intense. We have found planting potatoes and hilling/mulching/harvesting to be incredibly destructive to grasses, so that can be a bigger plan for next year. For now, if you can keep dumping woodchips on top they will disappear. I plan on showing an area where that happened recently, it works. Hay works nicely too!
Astonishing that you’re growing willow without watering. It must be a moist spot. I don’t have moist sunny areas. All moist areas are shady so I’ve refrained from planting willow but I’d love to have a small willow somewhere ....
They do seem to need good moisture but more than anything SUN!
Hi :) very awesome video and congratulations for your beautiful food forest.. it's very inspiring. Just a question : do you have any slugs issues ? If yes, how do you manage them ?
Slugs have not been a concern for us for a while. I think the creatures in the soil that eat slug eggs have come in enough numbers that it has balanced
Awesome and detailed information. I appreciate the details especially the comments about complexity of fertility and that building these layers are within our grasp. To see things differently can take time but we cannot be afraid to try. I have a small backyard, but last season I started experimenting with adding diversity with berry bushes on one side, adding Pacific Coast Iris around my apple tree on the other and adding sunflowers throughout my garden. I also began composting in totes, which has worked well for my space. The next path I would like to try is adding elderberry and currants, perhaps in my front yard though. I live in Northern California. Do you still have cuttings available? Or, is it to late for me?
(I believe there could be more in the fall. you could follow on the associated website to know when.)
We plan to offer a bunch of cuttings for fall shipping... We open our inventory on September 1st. Thanks for your interest and happy growing to you!!
Have you ever grown goumi or mulberry from cuttings? Soft wood or hard wood? What time of year is best to do so? Love your channel, thank you for your contributions!
Limited success on both, but certainly doable. I'd like to return to that experiment again someday.
Great Video :) As for the radish planting- did you chop and drop honey suckle then till or turn over the soil to plant radish? Did you have any honey suckle come back or did you attempt to smother it? What's the best time of year to chop drop honey suckle? Do you chip / shred leaves you get in the fall? Is there a specific time of year or age you would add comfrey to perennials? CHEERS!
Too many questions, I'll answer one or two :)
We cut the honeysuckle really low during the growing season, laid it right back down, covered with compost and seeded. Some came back but the radishes came up pretty strong over all. You can always cut and drop again later. No chipping/shredding of leaves
Path ways made from sweet potato 🍠🍠🍠 you can walk on greens you can eat greens and get bumper crop animals loves 🍠🍠🍠 so go nuts
Interesting about the radishes, do you think they would work in a chicken coop green frame?
Quite likely, they are really adaptable
Thank you! I've watched the whole playlist and the transformation is breathtaking!
I would like to ask whether you find willow invasive and whether it requires a lot of management as it grows bigger? I am moving into a new property and it has a rather old knotted willow there. There's also a field where a horse used to graze many years ago and where I am now toying with the idea of a food forest. However, the northern side is completely exposed to those cold northern winds we get a lot of here (mid-south of Sweden), so I was thinking of taking some cuttings from that willow to create a sort of windbreak to give a few walnuts better chances of survival. The soil is likely clay-rich and the field is the lowest point of a gentle slope. Do you think this is a viable idea or should I look for other solutions?
I would add Willows to be sure, but also consider other elements, what about Alder, Autumn Olive, Goumi, Seaberry... plants to add even more nutrient and provide other yields.
Willow can be robust and some varieties spread (most don't), but you can always cut them as hard as you need to keep them where you need them to be. Each pruning is more mulch or feed for animals, etc... We work with willow extensively and love them!
Glad you enjoyed the series
@@edibleacres Thank you for your good suggestions! There are indeed multiple benefits and yields. I will look around the property and see whether I can find anything else to propagate or try to find to purchase.
Thoroughly enjoying your videos! Thank you for sharing your wisdom 👃
Question, please - From minute 15 to 16, there is a bird squawking in the background. What kind of bird is that?
sounds like an angry chicken, to me
Sounds like a chicken that may have laid an egg! Mine make that noise when they laid an egg or sometimes they will squeak like that when they’re warning the others of a hawk.
Most likely chicken laying egg
We are just beginning to get started. I'm curious, where or how do you get so much compost to get this large of an area started? Also, who or where do you recommend we look for education to do this on our farm? We have approximately 2 acres we would like to have as a food forest instead of a lawn that has to be mowed.
We will be doing regenerative farming with livestock on an additional 12 acres. Thanks
We have a chicken composting system we work with that generates a lot of compost, but also we buy in round bales of unsprayed hay and get wood chips, leaf bags, etc to help build soil.
comment for the TH-cam algorithm
Thanks!
Do you have a strategy for using the willow as mulch without it rooting?! I chipped a load a few years ago and now we have a little willow thicket!
Early on you can very easily pull any branches that start rooting and throw them on top of others, that can help resolve that issue... I normally just cut with pruners/loppers and lay them on existing mulch.
Do you have a video on making cuttings I haven't been able to be successful at anything so far even just ornamentals or elderberries any suggestions or ideas I would appreciate it
he has a whole playlist on plant propagation: th-cam.com/play/PLihFHKqj6JerMl-RTZRp1ZTgNDK9Oce-T.html 🙂
@@MartinaSchoppe hi Martina!!
@@huttonsvalleypermaculture oh, hi there
How are the lotuses and other pond plants doing?
I can do an update soon on them, but one variety is thriving of the lotuses, but a number of them disappeared (voles?!)... The arrowhead is doing wonderfully!
👍👍👍👍👍
When you say Willow in this video what kind are you referring to please? Also what is a "goomy" and how do you spell it?
Goumi is the plant I mentioned.
Please consider also uploading to Odysee
Autumn olive has been designated as a prolific invasive in some states that is spread when birds eat and disperse the fruit seeds How do you justify having them in your forest guilds?
They have shown themselves to be incredibly beneficial, supportive and delicious/medicinal plants in our context. When regulators who determine plants to be illegal aliens ALSO determine cancer causing herbicides and insecticides as illegal I will be more interested in those designations. For now, I prefer direct empirical experience to drive decisions and design. I hope that helps in understanding my process?
as my perennials mature and I have the ability to take cuttings and propagate and move further into succession (a true food forest which is self replicating) HOWEVER, if I still enjoy growing annuals- How do I maintain those niches within the garden? Do I simply set aside space for annuals only; or do I try to fill small niches within the food forest IE zucchini as a ground cover; or allowing peas to trellis up trees. What’s the most stable and healthy system; also what is the least labor intensive for mixed perennial/annual production within the same food garden.
Great question, with what feels like a very complex 'it depends' kind of answer... I try to see young trees in the open sun as nice trellis plants for annual vines, as you mentioned. Peas on shrubs and young trees, etc. We've had great success with winter squash growing on somewhat established Autumn Olive, as an example.
It is also important to remember that some super fast and shade producing candidates can be cut hard once in a while. Our willow line, for example, could have sections that are coppiced flush to ground in a year or two, which would liberate a TON of available light on either side for hungry and light needing annuals for a year or two.
Lots of pathways, and there is always the idea of the south side of a given planting can hold space for quite a while too...
Just some ideas :)
This is very challenging and one I’m in the midst of dealing with myself. Annuals will get overrun in any forest unless you actively maintain an environment or the. For me, I have(had) 8 annual raised beds but now I’ve converted one to asparagus and two others to Plus4Zone mini-greenhouses and planted dwarf “non-hardy” fruit trees in them, while moving annuals to dedicated annual community beds and edges. This is definitely an issue, watch out for over-aggressive plants and be willing to rip out and re-plant to get what you want.
It has been my observation from practical growing as well as study and research of many others that a self-replicating food forest is only a reality within a very short time frame, but fortunately probably one that coincides with most gardeners interest in their gardens… i.e. multiple years to a couple decades. So, even though nature is constantly trying to move on to a(multiple) climax species for your area, it practically may not matter to you an individual gardener.
I have heard that nitrogen fixing species only significantly contribute their nitrogen to the soil and subsequently other species when they (the nitrogen fixers) are cut down in their prime thus causing their nitrogen rich roots to decompose and release nitrogen into the soil. If this is true then what is the point of keeping Larger perennial nitrogen fixers around? What are your thoughts on this issue? Is this correct?
Geoff Lawton recently posted a video update of their greening the desert project. He mentions using prunings from long term nitrogen fixers (some kind of tree) as a nitrogen rich mulch. This particular tree also loses its leaves seasonly, providing more mulch and goodness.
I’m not sure anyone really knows what’s going on in the soil, I would not be surprised to find out that in healthy fungi rich soil that all kinds of things are moved around and shared. Regardless the plan as I understand it would be to prune the nitrogen fixers regularly to drop as green manure, which would be while the leaves are on.
I'm not well-versed in N-fixing trees but there's at least one orchard channel that absolutely insists on putting them among their fruit trees, and as far as I know doesn't cut them down. I wonder if maybe annual pruning makes the trees release N into the soil?
The channel I'm thinking of is "Stefan Sobkowiak - The Permaculture Orchard."
I am trying senna and false indigo as more of a Bush layer nitrogen fixers. I have a couple honey locusts further away
from what I understand every time you reduce the canopy/ above soil part of the nitrogen fixer, there is root die back to match. This die back in the roots frees up the nitrogen nodules to feed near by plant. Doing chop and drop would add nitrogen as those green leaves and stems decompose as well.
Anyone tried this or a similar method in Northern California?
I don't know specific examples, but I'd be pretty surprised if someone hasn't. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work there.
Should be reasonable so long as you work with dry tolerant plants extensively and focus on covering ground ASAP!
Basic food forest question about after steady state is reached years later: is there still a place in the mature FF for the annuals that might typically be in a vegetable garden (potatoes, carrots, onions, garlic, salad greens)? Thanks
I've found if your FF has a good long southern (S-SE) exposure, you can plant annuals along the edges. Some annuals do just fine planted that way, particularly if temps are above normal. The late afternoon shade is helpful.
There can be openings made after hard cuts. For example the willows can be coppiced in one area next year or soon... Compost added around them and an annual crop grown, maybe even a light weight vining crop that can climb the regrowth (peas growing up willow shoots!). Orientation can let you keep the east side open, the south side open, etc. for a longer window too...
I also tend to plant out the middle section first to give plants a good head start before planting out the S-SE end. Trees or large shrubs on that end could shade out other plants if the grow well or agressively.
I hate having to snuff a plant unless it's necessary rather than due to my bad planning.
Steady state is a misnomer, as there is constant natural transition until you reach the climax forest that has adapted to your area/conditions. Annuals are one of the first stages in the succession so all you have to do is find an area, like an edge with adequate light, or create one, like cutting stuff down to create a clearing and voila, you have a space for annuals. Just be aware that nature will be striving to progress to perennial, shrubs and trees so you will constantly be trying to maintain the open space.
Poppies!
How do you deal with pests?
We don't worry about them, they aren't much of an issue in a system like this
I dunt really agree with your Liberal use of willows, I don't know if you use easier species but the ones I have are a nightmare to get rid of in places I don't want them xD
They sucker everywhere and never give up no matter how many times you cut them to the ground... Good for making wood chips and weaving into baskets and stuff but I'd be mindful of where I use them
That hasn't been my experience with most willows, although one type seems to be that way. Consider it a continual fountain of mulch until it passes away :)
There are so many species here in Finland and they're hard to distinguish so I can't specify what I have, but they're ones with bigger leaves and they often establish in ditches and wetlands, both of which I have plenty on my land. I have about half a hectare of "endless mulch" I've been chipping and using a lot, and weaving long straight branches into fences and stuff. Useful but tricky plants.
People hate on the most vigorous and productive plants lol. Mint, willow, dandelions, and other "weeds". If the only work you have to do is harvest. That's a good plant. People just aren't using it enough.
@@alicatdotcom willow, at least here, just tends to smother out anything else you want to succeed the spot, be it an apple tree or whatever. I wouldn't call it hate, but I'd be careful with it.
If my mint and rosemary take over an acre, I guess I'll just have to start bundling them up and selling to neighbours! xD
@@alicatdotcom Basically I agree, but in limited space where you want other things to also thrive they become a problem. Dandelions grow abundantly here, and I grow specimen-sized ones. They are great for early season pollinators and decompacting soils, and if we ate the flowers and leaves we would have an over abundance of greens, which my wife says we don’t grow enough of. Got to find the optimal size for harvesting and some great dandelion recipes….
Is there a Tree of Heaven?
I mean our plants go off in winter and die in summer