What Happens if the Stormcloaks Win? An Analysis of the Skyrim Civil War, Part II
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มี.ค. 2024
- Revisiting The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim to discuss the intricacies of the Skyrim Civil War - again! This is a continuation of our last video on the war, “Who Are the Good Guys?” The link to check that one out is below:
• Who Are the Good Guys?...
#skyrim #elderscrolls #gaming
Chapters:
00:26: Summary of part 1
03:19: In defense of the White-Gold Concordat
03:55: TALOS
04:54: The implications of a Stormcloak victory
07:32: The moral standings of each side
08:23: Alternate reality Ulfric
09:47: What I would do
10:38: The respective mentalities of each side
11:45: Uncomfortable truth
13:28: My ask of both Imperials and Stormcloaks
14:07: My message to Stormcloaks
Music:
-The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Original Game Soundtrack by Jeremy Soule - เกม
![อยู่ได้แล้ว - LIPTA feat. Mirrr [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-9-hpntNym4/mqdefault.jpg)
I would just like to point out one thing. The reason why the Thalmor was able to cause so much destruction to he Empire was because they had a Dadric artifact. This allowed them to see all imperil plans and troop movements. They lost possession of this artefact just before the end of the war, that helped the empire take back the impearl city. Without this artifact the Thalmor will not be able to fight as well as they did. Lets not forget the Empire has the best marshal tactics of all the armies on Tamriel. And the Nords are some of the best warriors on Tamriel. So I don't think the Thalmor would be able to "steamroll" either side. *mic drop*
Right…but now, post-war, the Thalmor have direct access to and knowledge of all Imperial plans and troop movements due to their infiltration and integration into the Empire, in addition to being made well aware of the Empire’s martial tactics due to them being on the receiving end of them as well as their ability to say, “hey, Empire, give us everything you have on your strategy and tactics”. Not to mention the books littering Skyrim on the Empire’s tactics, several of which can be found in the Thalmor embassy…which is all made completely irrelevant by the fact that the best martial tactics of all the armies on Tamriel being employed by the best warriors on Tamriel still lost to the Dominion in the end, Daedric artifact or not. War is so much more than warriors and combat - it’s subterfuge, manipulation, etc. Even if the Empire far exceeds the Dominion’s ability in conventional warfare, the Dominion has demonstrated a mastery in unconventional warfare that the Empire just doesn’t have. I disagree with you pretty strongly, brotha! But major shoutout for the TES: Legends lore drop. Mad respect
The thalmor had the advantage of a surprise invasion against a unsuspecting and underprepared foe. The orb of ormina was critical to their achievements in the war and despite these advantages the empires forces humbled lord naarifin and they failed to enforce their complete will in an unconditional surrender against the empire. Now the empire is aloof and has garrisoned its border with the dominion with significant legions. It is very difficult for a Lion to ambush and kill a wildebeest 30 meters from it who is also aware of its presence and danger. I think you blow the Thalmors power out of proportion because if they are as powerful and have infiltrated the empire so deeply why do they bother with formalities and not conquer Cyrodiil or the empire? The thalmor will lose because Dragonborn the protagonist is always fated to win regardless (lore reasons).
The Dominion got kicked out of Hammerfell just like that. They couldn't "steamroll" a single province.
The Empire as presented in Skyrim has fallen into corruption. Their Jarls are people like Siddgeir and Maven Blackbriar. They try to execute the PC without a reason, and torture their prisoners, as seen in Helgen.
Reasonably, several of the Jarls that are instated by the Empire if they win the civil war, will only look out for themselves. That is blatantly obvious in some cases. Try to convince me that Siddgeir or Maven won't happily switch sides if they get a good deal from the Thalmor.
If I remember correctly, the stated reason for your execution is for crossing the border. It wasn't "no reason." Understandably, that might not be fair justice, but this is war and you fell under the jurisdiction of the empire. So you need your own roleplay reason to fill in why you were knowingly and willingly doing that and without permission.
Ulfric is in the wagon with you for actual high crimes, not just against the empire for waging the war, but against Skyrim and the Nords for assassinating the high king. The war was likely about to be concluded, but his life happened to be sparred because you happened to be there. Fate for you as Dragonborn, but what about Ulfric's fate as a traitor to his own people?
Other honorable Jarls like Balgruf made the same deal as those you point out as traitors. Peace and no bloodshed and maintaining the empire is free and easy as the moral choice, no payment necessary. And why would the Thalmor pay Maven or Sidd if they could just as easily have them killed?
Yes the empire supporting NPCs are mostly portrayed as gold over honour, whereas stormcloaks seem to have less money but are traditional. The fact the empire jarls all party with the Thalmor, with Elisif even going as far to say she loves being at the embassy, is not a good look. At the start of the game the two imperial holds have Thalmor present vs. None in Riften and Windhelm. On the other hand, the Thalmor appear at Helgen at the the more try to stop Ulfric’s execution which is very telling that they want the empire to stay weak, they also call Ulfric an asset. They don’t seem that phased by the rebellion but see it as a way to eliminate a bigger threat.
10:43 ok, so they had Ulfrik in their hands. Why didn't the empire say "the Thalmor are manipulating us into war we need to work together against them" but instead chose to send him to execution? Using him against the thalmor is a better option than just killing him and hoping the nords would stop rebelling. You're expecting me to believe the people who treated me like a person from the second they laid eyes on me and helped me escape execution are going to go on a massive killing spree, but the people who already are on a massive killing spree even against people who clearly aren't even involved would just talk it out?
I can't be the only one seeing the complete 180 switch of sides there.
Sure, the imperials aren't comically evil, but they're not choosing "the benefit of all man kind" they're just choosing to maintain their empire. The others be damned. After the war, your character doesn't go and use their influence to fight the thalmor. They just go and become a thalmor puppet like the rest of the empire. At least Ulfric doesn't pretend like the thalmor are friends. Unlike the empire.
The war against the nords is a result of the empire choosing to oppress the people. They could've chosen to unite against the thalmor, but instead, they chose to divide the realm.
Ulfric started the war rebellion within Skyrim and against Skyrim itself as well as the empire. He got notions and murdered the high king and was in fact about to be executed for all of that - the war was almost over. Your character is picked up for crossing the border because of this state of war - it's Ulfric's fault you're sitting next to him on the wagon. But maybe you have your own roleplay reasons why you were on your way there to do what you were going to do anyway - so maybe your intentions aren't innocent either and you deserve your hastily adjudicated execution, either way, doesn't really matter, it's a state of war. You can maintain the empire and the binding law of its peace treaty so it can fight another day or go on in peace, or contribute to its further fragmentation and decline for supporting the obvious ahole and moron in the story.
Stormcloak or Imperial we can all agree Nazeem sucks and Paarthurnax should be spared
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I'm pretty sure the Thalmor's army was in the same wrecked state as The Empire's after the war and only got them to sign the Concordant cause they had a better poker face in the art of lying? whatever was left of their forces got smashed in Hammerfell by the Redguards and Legion volunteers who choose to be discharged so they could go fight in Hammerfell.
So, all in all, even if been 30 years, I doubt the Thalmor have the forces to do anything in the event of a Stormcloak victory. You also have to take into account that the Altmer have very restrictive reproduction compared to Humans and the Thalmor actively purge their own people along with Khajiiti and Bosmeri populations, which hurts their numbers even more.
I have heard that before but I’m not sure of the validity behind it - if you find anything on the state of the Dominion post-war being equally as exhausted as the Empire, please share it, as that’s a near game changer as far as my take on this goes! I can’t remember off the top of my head if that info is in-game or not. I will say though, from a roleplay perspective that wouldn’t change anything for my characters as the Dominion still objectively won the war, whether they were able to lie their way to an Imperial surrender or not. Just means they war better than the Empire - war isn’t just machismo and swords banging against shields. It’s deceit, plots, lies, manipulation…all the things the Thalmor clearly excel at. But yeah, definitely something to think about because after a war of that scale, the Thalmor could very well have been completely devastated as well - may be a contributing factor to why they got nailed by Hammerfell.
I thought the same. Though the loading screens have a mention of the Concordat was the only way for the empire to survive.
Unfortunatley the mer have "time " on their side . They can prolong the White Gold Concordant into generations , and as far as restrictive reproduction that is easily overlooked
@@10pointsofslashingskyrim being free is a massive blow against the thalmor as much as they say they wanted it to carry on they definitely dont want a skyrim victory cos now as a newly freed state they need allies will likely look to hammerfell which in turn cuts off high rock from the empire losing high rock will probably tempt the empire to stand down from invasions cos they could potentially lose the only other province they have the issue is however his segregation of dark eleves could have effects on if they ever want morrowind to get involved however if they can somehow convince both hammerfell and argonia to unite the empire will do fuck all cos that alliance now becomes a bigger threat than the thalmor
@@10pointsofslashing Most of what I could find, comes from the Elder Scrolls fandom wiki, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The wiki covers the Great War in some general terms but mentions the Battle of the Red Ring where the main AD army in Cyrodiil is completely wiped out. After which, Mede signs the concordat. Hammerfell secedes and the Night of Greenfire happens when Thalmor forces invade Sentinal to kill Altmer dissidents who fled Summerset/Alinor. War between Hammerfell and the AD happens and the Humans win. The second treaty of stros m'kai is signed. Which forces the Dominion to return all the land they took via the concordat and the invasion and kicks them out of Hammerfell. Due to this, tensions rise in The Empire about how Mede shouldn't have signed the WGC and should have kept fighting. Time passes and Skyrim happens.
I always play as a Breton, but in Skyrim, I sided with the Stormcloaks, not specifically Ulfric, though. I never openly took down Imperials unless I was freeing a prisoner, but I did openly take down every Thalmor I saw, prisoner or not, plus I would conduct regular attacks on the Thalmor Embassy.
The Stormcloaks winning is most likely the canon ending.
The Empire died with it’s Emperor as the Imperials betrayed their oath for gold.
Not most likely it IS canon that the stormcloaks win the civil war. I don't remember which one but it was stated in a book set much after skyrim
@@dr.rattleIt is explicitly stater that there is no canon ending to date.
The Stormcloaks are getting massacred by the worst the Empire has to toss their way, there is zero reason to believe they'd win.
@@dutchpatriot17 stormcloaks won,empire fallen
@@gustavsvasa3768 Prove it.
I really have to disagree with some things you said here. The dominion would not easily steamroll over Skyrim, Hammerfell pushed them from their land, Skyrim can do the same. The Empire failed, Tamriel needs an ebonheart pact, not an empire, and that is more likely than your idea of some splinter faction forming within the empire, if it was sniffed out, the thalmor would tell the emperor to have your character put to the sword, and just like Ulfric, you would be betrayed by the empire you fought so hard to protect and know good and well they were not worth preserving. The Stormcloaks would not kill the imperials if they laid down their arms, Ralof and Hadvar were able to not kill one another, Galmar and Ulfric wanted to spare Rikke, she simply did not want to stand down. They would banish the imperials and make the nords of the legion choose, leave and pick the empire, or join Skyrim's new army.
It was always clear that Ulfric would want to battle the dominion and drive them out of Skyrim, the Empire enables them, and like corrupt police who defend criminals and punish the citizenry, they have to be dealt with first. A microcosm can be seen in Markarth, the Stormcloaks drive out the empire, and when they do, the Thalmor Justiciar there gets a nice stone coffin in the crypt to lay his elven supremacist butt in.
The Empire was only good for Skyrim once upon a time, not anymore, and they are only looking after themselves now, Skyrim with a true king would have camaraderie with Hammerfell for feeling battered by the dominion and betrayed by the empire, that's the two strongest of warriors there who could startup a new ebonheart pact.
There have been people, leaders put into power or helped to succeed by others who thought they could be controlled, only for those to find out they very much could not control them. The Dominion would learn they could not control Ulfric and it would be a disaster for them.
Well-done dude, you us your head and spit facts wile also being respectful.
Skyrim independence does not violate the White-Gold Concordat. Skyrim would not even be the first province to leave the Empire.
It will not violate it, but it would actually kill skyrim, skyrim is poor it doesn't have gold, it does not have fortress on conditions, it's regular army is maimed by the civil war and the dragons so... Pretty much independent skyrim would fall eventually unless the dragonborn or another politic figure can gain time untill skyrim stabilize and prosper for some time, let's not forget 80% of the defensive structures that are worth something are on bandits hands...
@@genericname6167No, after the Stormcloaks take power, Ulfric will probably take back all of the forts for use against the Thalmor.
@@genericname6167 Part of the Civil War quest line is to retake those forts for your chosen side lmao
Also, the East Empire Company has a headquarters in Windhelm, despite being a subsidiary of the Empire (Windhelm's enemy). Trade will likely continue as normal if the Stormcloaks win
I'll comment something about the peace treaty as foreign relationship specialist - If your opponent aggrees to the terms he wanted to get without the war, he is week and feels incoming defeat. There was no crucial advantage of Thalmor, and Hammerfell proved it beating Dominion alone
One thing about a Stormcloak victory: An independent Skyrim puts a new player on the board against the Thalmor. They’re already encircled by enemies- the Empire, Hammerfell. Having one more pissed off human kingdom would be a huge problem for them. If they go to war with one, then the other two would surely jump on them.
That’s just me, though.
Oh for sure, it would be devastating if the Thalmor were literally surrounded by enemies. The question I have to ask, though, is: how deep does Ulfric’s nationalism go? Would he join up with a hit on the Thalmor if every other province went in against them, or would he say, “nah, doesn’t concern Skyrim. We’ll stay out of this one.” The other thing that comes to mind is I think people greatly discount the Thalmor’s ability to collect and act on intelligence. That’s ultimately what I believe is the upper hand they have on the Empire. And given that they now have a physical foothold in every Empire controlled province, their intelligence is just that much better. They have absolute and total METT-TC clarity which is a massive upper hand on the Empire.
The StormCloaks would be better to make deals with Hammerfell than the Empire who stuck them out to dry
to be fair issue with this is the only real winner would actually be the thalmor skyrim and rhe empire is already weak and after the civil war even weaker skyrim wouldnt team with the empire now after banning talos and hammerfell wouldnt join the empire either cos there land was given away dark elfs in morrowind also shunned by ulfric plus going to war with the dominion now means going through cyrodile which thalmor can get troops too first even then if ur army wins u can only really taken valenwood and elswyr unless u want to do a naval invasion from hammerfells southern border theres quite literally no winning against them but on the other hand skyrim and hammerfell starting alliance is there best bet as the thalmor will never be able to stop rebellion in both places fully they will always be pushed back and joining together will make the empire think twice since not onlt will you lose a lot of men high rock is completely cut off
@@10pointsofslashingI am pretty sure his dialogue after the civil war is something like:
"We cant rest, we need to prepare to fight the Thalmor" (obviously very paraphrased).
So he might be preparing to attack them himself.
@@10pointsofslashing He hates the Thalmor, and also does not want the Empire to be destroyed (as you allude to in your video). Ulfric wants Skyrim to secede and not be bound by Imperial rule. Skyrim being independent would mean that there is no ability for the Thalmor to invade their government. I do see your points in favor of the Empire, but I just think they have too much of an uphill battle in that they have to somehow secretly plan to fight back against the Thalmor, while also somehow dealing with high level political figures who have been bought out by the Thalmor.
In all honesty, not only would an independant Skyrim likely ally with Hammerfell and Cyrodiil against the Thalmor, but they would also likely keep trade open with the Empire (given that the EEC has a headquarters in Windhelm DURING the civil war).
@0:48 "By doing that, by claiming your side alone is right and the other is wrong..."
It's a war between a now Civic Imperial religion and a supernatural Talos religion. Honestly, Emperor Titus II does not have shrines to boost your power. Stormcloaks got this one right.
Plot twist: this wasn’t a video about Skyrim, but a PSA to be a good person and try understanding others, motivations before acting brashly
A second war with the Dominion is inevitable. Anyone/everyone ON BOTH SIDES with even the most basic knowledge of the conflict knows this so any argument that any action or inaction leads to war is meaningless.
Post war, an Imperial victory makes much more sense if you do quests like the dark brotherhood, restoring the East Empire company, the whispering lady, ect. Also the palace of the kings in Windhelm actually has enough rooms for the ousted jarls; whereas the blue palace tries to stuff them all in the basement.
I align more with the stormcloaks but when they attacked Whiterun and removed Balgruf who was the only jarl who appreciated my deeds and recognized me as Dragonborn, I reloaded my previous save and sided with the imperials.
Well done!
Alot of Nords all claim that they would rathr die than submit as Sovngarde awaits them, but for me I would say that the only problem with that is once you go to Sovngarde, you stay there while everyone else suffers, it's not about what you died for, but what your actions did for the world, which is a bit saddenìng as amidst the whole Nord vs nord conflict the bards will always sing about how dragonborn pushed the tide for the side they chose, which ties to Ulfric's last request in both factions' final moments
"Let the Dragonborn do it. It will make for a better song"
This is a case of Batman v. Super Man. I still don't like the position the Empire is in but your right.
I am a stormcloak fan but to me i would like to see them win but then talk to the empire and agree to a cessation of hostilities, as both know the thalmor need to be taken out and both would agree to do so. I just imagine the empire going "okay we will respect your independence and let you worship, Talos, but we need your help to beat the Thalmor, you in?" I know its wishful thinking but i can see after the stormcloaks get independence from the Empire, they decide to work with any imperial elements in Cyrodiil that sympathize with them to help kick the Thalmor out of cyrodiil and then work together with Hammerfell and maybe Black Marsh and what's left of Morrowind against the Thalmor.
I was waiting for another video! I have a suggestion for another one too: an analysis of the Qun and if it’s a good way to run a society.
Hey, thank you so much! I did see that comment, and I actually put that suggestion out in a meeting today. We’ve got a bunch of Dragon Age stuff on the docket right now and I love that idea so definitely keep your eyes peeled for that! Thank you again 🤙
The fact that Hammerfell defeated the thalmor by themselves is proof that there is no point in playing a long game to defeat the thalmor. The empire should have stayed allied with hammefell to defeat the thalmor now. The best course of action is for a stormcloak Skyrim with the Dragonborn at the head of its army to unite with hammerfell and take down those damn elves once and for all
The Dominion likely took massive casualties both when the Empire retook the Imperial City and during the Hammerfell campaign. Altmer have a very low birth rate iirc so it will take a long time to muster a military force on the level they had pre-Great War.
That said, the Thalmor *want* the Skyrim Civil War to drag out as long as possible. Any immediate response to a Stormcloak victory would likely be a more covert one as opposed to a full on campaign. Or possibly a diplomatic one like demanding further concessions from the Empire or forcing a trade embargo of Skyrim by the Empire
I am pretty sure the Empire only really signed the concordat for fear of falling apart.
Great thoughts but you miss one thing. When I win the war for the Stormcloaks I am now an end game player. The best Smith, Alchemist and Enchanter in the world. I can now single handedly decide the fate of any battle. Walk up to the Thalmor armies and rain down lightening on them as the Dragon born.
Oddly enough, lots of commentary videos seem to forget that point. You're the bloody Dragon born. You're incredibly powerful, you have the aid of some dragons, you have the voice. An independent Skyrim could easily ally with hammerfell and push back the thalmor.
@@justinm4497 The main character of ES games always fades into obscurity after fulfilling their destiny (defeating Alduin). The Last DB will have no role in the cannon ending of the Civil War, I guarantee it.
So i love the civil war questline but we dont need to guess, its actually Canon that the Stormcloaks won the civil war as of one of the books
Right on! What book is that?
@@10pointsofslashing I'm really trying by best to find it again, to the best of my knowledge it was in one of the full Novels but I can't for the life of me remember which one. I was trying to look it up after I posted this comment but I can't find it. I'll try to come back if I find it but I could by all means be wrong
This cant be true. Im pretty sure more people would be talking about it.
There's definitely a lot to unpack but effectively I can try to summarize what all I know so far:
The Thalmor did get the biggest leg up on the first Great War due to all-sight cheating crystal ball, which was confirmed destoryed/sent back to Oblivion.
The Empire and the Aldmeri are both incredibly exhausted despite boastings from the Thalmor, however due to Aldmeri's lack of military superiority they do have hands inside the Imperial goverment. To what extent is hard to say but enough to have a knife pointed at the heart of Imperial operations.
Imperial government isn't as trashed as most believe and the Mede dynasty may be in a very weak state *NOW* however that wasn't the full case and still isn't. Despite the Dominion's best efforts, the Empire has militant superiority now and is currently in the time of the rebellion able to hold a cold war border with the Dominion AND spare troops (very little though) to help Tulius finish Ulfric. If not for the mountain pass being blocked and made impassable for the time being.
Though Ulfric and his Cloaks are firey and impassioned, they have zeal more than they have strategy. Case in point is that Ulfric was captured after a short period of time that Tulius arrived into Skyrim to handle him. And Tulius did this with local recruits and showing little to no respect for the culture of the people of Skyrim.
Tulius is incredibly effective and coldly smart, however because of the interruption of the execution of Ulfric... well now his short term success is on a razor's edge. At least until/if Balgruuf turns on either side.
Ulfric HAS learned and now as well by the time we join up on either side, in order to get the upper hand in the civil war with local numbers support we go grab an ancient crown. Which will undoubtly cause a lot of still undecided men and women to sign up in droves to whoever has the crown.
This basically means that you can support either side and you WILL be gaining local military numbers. But admittedly Ulfric is politically in a supremely shitty spot. Though he's attempted to gain outside support from High Rock and Hammerfell, there hasn't been any replies. Meaning that should an independent Skyrim occur, they are ALONE for the time being. Geographically they have time to recover but potentially given their ambitions, the wrong High King/Queen can break the independent province rather fast. In a projected 3-5 year time lapse AT BEST.
For all the immediate reasons, it's better to side with the Empire but still if YOU became the leading figure of Skyrim AND had political influences and business influence with outside sources then effectively YOU can genuinely make an independent Skyrim work out to a terrifying degree.
But given the vanilla situations, it's going to be better in the short term to aid the Empire. And no you won't get a religiously free Skyrim even if the reunification goes smoothly after the second Great War because guess what; you're a ruler who's under another, more centralized ruler! Meaning YOU who became High King under the Empire are their regent. And if you don't like it, too bad. Because now you gave every advantage the Empire needed to grip tighter on Skyrim because of you.
So if you're like me, and are a Stormcloak rebel, make damn sure you have REALLLLLLY deep connections with business empires AND that you have independent political allies i.e. Morrowind House(s) or High Rock kingdom(s) or Hammerfell itself.
All outside factions, save for Imperial aligned (which is only some High Rock and Cyrodil itself) and of course Aldmeri factions, are completely capable of at the very least hearing you out without serious reprisals from the major factions.
This is a GROSSLY summarized view of mine but I hope it really brings more flavor to the conversation.
Why wouldn't the Empire allow Talos Worship post-war? They'd have every reason to and zero good reasons not to.
Like any war in order to gain allies like Hammerfell they have to see evidence that you are able to hold your own before committing to your cause , just like the French had to see the Colonies be able to win battles before they committed to furnishing them wit aid .
@@BigManDaichi I think it's misunderstanding about what post-war time you think I'm talking about. I meant the immediate post-civil war issue. Obviously they can't and won't allow Talos worship until AFTER the Second Great War. IF they even win at all.
@@str8shot216 Which is where YOU as the player come in like I mentioned. Though again, I grossly over summarized everything here.
I disagree with the assessment that the thalmor can just steamroll Tamriel when the only thing they achieved during the Great War was to overextend themselves, which led to the loss of all their territorial gains from both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.
The lore makes it pretty clear that Tamriel is too vast for a single political entity to rule it, without the Numidium and divine mandate to do so and even then the empire was forced to allow huge amount of autonomy to its provinces in order for them to allow imperial presence within them.
There’s no way for the Thalmor to succeed in such a feat, especially with the animosity that they have inspired against themselves. It’s been established since Morrowind that elven nations though more stable than human societies, lack the manpower for economic adventures and long lasting military expeditions and since we have seen that the Khajiit can not carry the whole Dominion in the Great War we can safely assume that every single attempt the thalmor make to conquer a human province will only lead to them being overwhelmed by local resistance, regardless wether the empire has collapsed or not.
The Stormcloak cause is righteous and just as they seek to remain faithful to Talos and they seek independence from both the empire and the thalmor. Their victory will save countless lives of innocent Talos worshippers. The idea that the imperials will be merciful to them if they surrender is disproven by the fact that every time that the empire captured a Stormcloak or a Talos worshipper they either executed them (like in Helgen) or sent to the Thalmor (Markarth Incident and Thorald Grey Mane), Hadvar being cordial to a couple of Stormcloaks doesn’t disprove that fact. Thus it’s imperative for the Stormcloaks to win both for their survival as well as the survival of countless innocents.
Finally the fate of Tamriel is ultimately determined by the gods either directly or indirectly through their heroes. There’s no way that they would ever allow the thalmor to destroy the world and from a metaphysical point of view it’s far better to fight and sacrifice your life for your gods than to deny them when things get tough. Because at the end of the day it’s the gods who will decide your eternal fate both in this life and the next and the empire will definitely suffer for the blasphemy of signing the WGC.(Not that the empire hasn’t already lost divine favour, as we see already in Morrowind and Oblivion)
First off, wuddup Teyrn Cousland! Big fan, I’m a Denerim native myself.
Second, thank you so much for the concise and well put together comment!
Third, let’s dig into it! I will never for the life of me understand how so many people are like “the Thalmor couldn’t steamroll Tamriel”. Like, bruh, did you play Skyrim? They already did 😂 that was the point of that segment in the video. They’ve already proven that they can and will steamroll the world if they want. People say stuff like, “but the Thalmor only just barely won” or “but the Thalmor only won because they used/did blank”. Like, yeah man, you’re right - and they WON 😂😂 you’re just making my point for me lmao
On the topic of the divine - I get that gods are a real and tangible part of this world and have a significant impact on the lore and happenings of the Elder Scrolls franchise. However, your gods have already allowed far too much. Your gods have allowed the Thalmor to win the war, to persecute all of humanity, to execute Talos worshippers with no questions asked, and to just generally warp the world to their own twisted preferences. Thousands of innocent people have died at the Thalmor’s hands because your gods have allowed that.
I wonder how much more your gods will allow.
At the end of the day, I don’t care about negligent gods, I don’t care about the failing Empire, and I don’t care about the cult of the Stormcloaks - I just want to stop the Thalmor.
Side note - I absolutely love that a freakin’ video game causes THIS LEVEL of discussion and debate. Religion, politics, war…it’s seriously amazing and a testament to the fact that hands down, Skyrim is one of the greatest video games of all time. I love that people like us get so fired up about this crap 😂 thanks again for the comment, dude!
@@10pointsofslashing That’s because the thalmor didn’t steamroll Tamriel, they invaded two provinces and they were repelled in both. The only reason why they are able to operate throughout the empire is because of the empire’s weakness and corruption, not because of the thalmor’s strenght. We are talking about an empire that has been declining for the last 200 years and is now less than 1/3 of its zenith. The only reason the thalmor are able to establish their presence within it is because they use the empires armies as an occupation force as they’re incapable of establishing their own. All the thalmor have is their justiciars and their bodyguards, they don’t occupy the empire, it’s the empire that occupies Tamriel in their stead. That’s due to the fact that the empire is corrupt and internally weak, it’s a systemic issue that can only be resolved by removing the empire and replacing by new nations that aren’t compromised by the WGC.
As for the gods they always intervene at the right moment just like they did now with the dragons by sending the Dragonborn. They are not negligent.
I play both side but I think stormcloaks are still think are right
Well to be fair to the stormcloaks at the start of the game, they just avoided execution at the hands of the empire, I doubt theyd be willing to talk to the people who tried to take their heads (and succeeded with one of their comrades). I also do believe the stormcloaks would be willing to do some work with the empire if the empire actually were to strike out against the Thalmor.
i don't think they will have a choice if they want to carry on as a nation otherwise they will be cut of from the rest of the world or even worse. even when the us won there war they still had to play political ball with the uk
You said you were from high rock, are you a Breton?😂 and good vid
10 Points of Slashing. I strongly recommend the following videos. (WHY THE STORMCLOAKS MUST WIN) and (Rolff Stone-Fist is right. THE DARK ELVES ARE IMPERIAL SPY'S.
I will also say as a stormcloak myself, the war also got kicked off when Ulfric challenged high king Torig. Imperials say, he “murdered” him, when he challenged him in the Nord way. There is TOO MUCH grey area that we still done quite know what actually happened. Also, I DO see the empires side of things. Signing the white gold concordat because it was either that or fight for your life. I understand that. But that’s how the nords were raised. Similar to spartan beliefs, you die fighting. You never give an inch unless they earned it, in war is definitely how you earn it. My PERSONAL belief is Stormcloaks win and kill tullius and Ulfric becomes high king, that makes Skyrim purely a Nord settlement which is exactly how it should be. Ulfric I believe needs to love everyone who lives in Skyrim tho, if you join and your not a nord he asks you why fight for Skyrim and if you say Skyrim is my home, he understands and still lets you join. I don’t believe he is racist like what everyone says, but I DO know he’s harder on other races than nords because he’s unclear how much those other races living in Skyrim love the land as much as he does. I believe all of Skyrim aligns with The Redguards and eventually Cyrodiil joins everyone against thalmor. Trust me, we stormcloaks know the thalmor is the real enemy, but the civil war is about us fighting for our homeland, once we achieve that again, then we know war with the thalmor is next.
Well said! Skyrim belongs to the Nords!
@@Dragonofthenorth1 Skyrim belongs to EVERYONE that LOVES HER
@@t-d0ggofficial540 yeah sure, I'm just exaggerating^^
Yeah but even if you're nord, galmar still asks why a foreigner would fight for Skyrim.
@@6Tainted1370 I believe in that conversation with galmar you can still say Skyrim is my home something along those lines AND still once you get to the end of the quest line and you talk to galmar he has nothing but good things to say about you, because you PROVED yourself to not just him, but Skyrim herself. Come on guys these guys ain’t as bad as the picture that’s painted by empire loyalists
I do see both sides. I don't hate the empire i hate the thalmor and if that means having to fight the empire to get them out of skyrim then so be it. The empire that i know and loved is gone with Martin who will always be my emperor and friend but after that the new empire i see as weak. They gave up to the damn thalmor and let them outlaw talos, who i remind you was the one who founded the empire in the first place, disbanded the blades, and they even gave the thalmor hammerfell. Like really?! And they didn't even give the redguards a choice. That's not the empire I want to fight for. Like galmar said at the end "the day the empire signed that treaty is the day the empire died." And I agree.
Average Civil War Fighter vs Average Telvanni fetch quester 💀
I hereby claim myself, Emperor of Skyrim and that everyone else is cringe for not honoring the sixth house and the Tribe unmourned, no but seriously, the Dragon cult is cool.
@@NationalistCanadian Based honorer of the sixth house and the tribe unmourned, If Todd made it so that we could side with Dagoth Ur in TES:3 I'm certain that all the games after it would 1000% inferior to Morrowind in every regard other than graphical fidelity
For me I am a imperial my wife is a storm cloak we laugh at that
The Empire was corrupt & dying even before The Great War. It is foolish to believe that a "united" Empire would have a better chance at defeating the Aldmeri Dominion than a coalition of individually stronger provinces.
I don't believe that Ulfric only wants power, he genuinely cares about Skyrim and wants to see its independence. If you side with the Imperials, push the Stormcloaks back, and go to kill Ulfric then these are some of the last things that he says:
Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."
Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."
Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."
Are those the last words of a self-obsessed, power-hungry psychopath? Doesn't sound like it to me.
Unfortunately man, I’m gonna answer that question with a hard yes. Especially considering, “let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It’ll make for a better song” are his actual last words. Those are absolutely the words of a self-obsessed, power-hungry psychopath - he knows history is being written in that exact moment and wants to be remembered for the image he’s projected to amass his cult following. He wants to be the heroic martyr. In his final moments, how Ulfric is perceived was his primary concern. That’s some straight up narcissism, man. He cares about Skyrim, definitely - but I really don’t think anything will ever matter to him more than being High King.
@@10pointsofslashing Hard no here. Preferring to be killed by the Dragonborn instead of some general so your death is more memorable does not make someone power-hungry or a narcissist (that stupid word gets thrown around too much), it's just sentimental. It's weird to call the Stormcloaks a cult because they follow Ulfric, you could say the same about the Empire, empires of all stripes are built on the following of one strong leader, which they currently lack btw.
He's completely right about the Empire, it's falling apart at the seems and full of justiciars who can arrest, torture and kill anyone in Imperial territory they want with impunity, Talos-worshippers or not; why not replace the weak, foreign leadership who isn't even descended from Talos with that of a Nordic veteran who'll make Skyrim independent and take the fight to the Thalmor?
The Aldmeri Dominion is not nearly as strong as you think. If it was it would have started the Second Great War already. It hasn't even been able to take over (an independent) Hammerfel much less all of Tamriel.
I’ll never understand how the Dominion straight up wins a war against the Empire (which, at the time, consisted of the unified military might of Cyrodiil, High Rock, Hammerfell, and Skyrim - to include Ulfric Stormcloak and his boys) and somehow people are STILL like, “nah they’re weak we can take ‘em in a round two. Just us and Hammerfell let’s gooooooo”. Like bruh they already literally knocked the Talos outta you. I just don’t understand, lol. “Hey guys I know we just lost against these dudes but here’s my idea - we go up against them again, but THIS time, we take LESS firepower than we did the first time and try to fight them the exact same way, but worse” 🤔🤔🤔
@@10pointsofslashingcould you do a video explain the ceding of Hammerfell and the treaty of Stross' Mikai?
The Thalmor has time on their side and can outlast generations of men and for that reason and reason alone the empire has to strike with immediately . Again rather die standing then die kneeling to the Thalmor
Most certainly not. As a rule, fantasy elves have much, much lower birth rates than humans. If the Thalmor lost 10000 soldiers, it might take them a hundred years to replenish those numbers. If the humans lost 10000 soldiers, they could replenish that in 18 years easily.
The Stormcloaks winning seems canon to me. The canon Dragonborn is a male Nord after all
Being a Nord doesn't make you a Stormcloak.
also ur point of siding with the imperials cos they had no real decision they could of literally said skyrim is no longer part of the empire like they did with hammerfell and skyrim could of just manned there borders and thalmor wouldn’t have touched it cos its not worth it however the empire would never do this cos it means high rock is cut off the imperials were doing whats best for there empire not whays best for its people the people of skyrim and hammerfell died fighting for a empire who failed them
and also the point of everyone dying is also false imo cos if that was the case why didn’t the thalmor launch a invasion into hammerfell ? if they invade skyrim and hammerfell they will get fucked up for ages thats why they used the empire in skyrim cos the empire had a foothold they didn’t have
Manned the borders with what? All 400 guards across all the Holds?
@@BigManDaichi The number of guards (and everybody else for that matter) that you find in the game itself are smaller than they are in the lore due to gameplay restrictions, you can't fit millions of npc's into pretty much any game. Kinda like how Solitude and some of the other towns are considered cities even though in-game none of them is much bigger than a mere castle, in-lore they're much bigger.
have you ever herd of the barbarians and the fall of Rome, even though the Roman empire had the best army world and the most defensible city in Europe, They lost and Rome fell. it doesn't matter how big your army is or how well equipped and trained you are you can still lose to a bunch of relay angary people. think of French revolution or the war of independence. what will the thalmore do with people who wont fall for there bullshit.
Rome was nowhere near at its strongest when it fell...
Bro said con cor dat
Sure did
That's how I say it too, problem?
Defeating Olfric DOES NOT cause Skyrim to calm down. It creates a martyr that would CONTINUE to rally Nords to the cause. True the cause would be without a leader for a time BUT a new leader is almost certain to rise to continue the cause.
Ulfric never succeeded in gaining much support until the death of Torygg 15 years after he started his rebellion.
With the death of Ulfric, that fire will die.
So many of these Stormcloak/Empire videos focus too much on the politics of the war.
The metaphysical aspects of the war wasn’t touched on enough in the game itself but the outlawing the worship of Talos is weakening the empire and is a sure path to doom.
I hear you, dude. There’s a whole world of craziness there as there are literal and tangible gods in the Elder Scrolls lore that have a measurable impact on the world. Something to be considered, for sure, and I’m sure we’ll dive into that hot mess at some point. I just have a background in war and politics so my immediate gut reaction in analyzing these things is to attack that right away 😂
Im new to Skyrim and immediately chose the StormCloaks because like you said its easy to see then as the good guys. But now after this Video i will choose the Empire for the sake of peace and to rid Tamriel of the Thalmor
I always pick Stormcloak. I'd rather die on the battlefield as a free man than live as a Thalmor slave.
Honestly i think Ulfrik has a lot of good points, but in the end i side with the Imperial or make a piece truce. As noble Ulfrics idea is and even if the has a truce with hammerfell and skyrim together probaly wont be able to defeat the Thalmor.
You and I have VASTLY different experiences with real world supporters for empire and stormcloaks. Imperial supporters are very quick to throw the "you're a racist and a biggot" card at me despite not knowing me just because I side with the Stormcloaks. Whereas Stormcloak supporters usually begin with pride of their chosen side and then laugh off weak kneed imperial supporters when they get upset.
Oh, to be fair, my fellow Imperials definitely love to throw the “you’re racist” card out there - I, myself, used to buy into that crap. But I’ve grown up a little and no longer believe Ulfric is racist by any means - I can see where that argument comes from because he’s objectively complicit in segregation, but there are intricacies to that situation that aren’t in your face right off the bat. The point there was that at the end of the day, Imperials can generally see a Stormcloak perspective (even if it comes with throwing accusations at them), but that Stormcloaks generally can’t see an Imperial perspective and do exactly what you described - insult and laugh off the enemy without considering their side of things. Pretty much every Imperial I’ve spoken to as well as the dudes in that last comments section will say exactly what I described in the video - yeah, it might come with the racism card, but that wasn’t the point I was making there.
Quite the read incoming: If the ‘Cloaks win, the Empire will quickly fall to insurrection, born out of the frustration and anger of its citizens at losing friends, cousins, sons, fathers, and lovers to Nord rebels. Especially after you assassinate The Emperor himself for the Dark Brotherhood.
*[No way was that actually him, there were too few guards, and his ship was completely isolated in the bay for all to see]*
Ulfric Stormcloak will have a moot to elect him as High King, but before anything happens The Dominion will break off its treaty with a vulnerable Empire, and invade both The Imperial City and Skyrim. The Nords are a very proud people, and as such, would NEVER stoop to cloak and dagger tactics. This is a fatal weakness, and the Elves will take full advantage through Nord proxies. Depending on his allegiance, (his status was classified as dormant in his dossier,) Ulfric could either force Skyrim to accept Dominion rule, or tell the Elves to take a flying leap. Either choice will be bloody for sure, but the Elves have the edge of information and their gulag in Skyrim. They’d extort their captured soldiers/connected citizens via their wealthy families, and get them to sell Ulfric out for their return. They’d send the best assassins they have to eliminate him, and it just might work… From then on, chaos…
Or - peace, as the late great Emperor Palpatine once said. Amazing comment, dude. Absolutely agreed. It’s the skill in unconventional warfare that puts the Thalmor head and shoulders above the Empire as well as Skyrim.
Olfric only has TWO motivations: to free Skyrim (free to worship Talos & free of weak/corrupt Imperial control) & to destroy the Aldmeri Dominion. Power (becoming High King of an independent Skyrim) is just a means towards those two ends. Olfric would prefer to 'just' be a general in the Skyrim army BUT recognizes that he has become a symbol to Nords & that him becoming High King is the best way to help his cause. STOP BELIEVING THE IMPERIAL LIES ABOUT OLFRIC!
I like to roleplay as the second coming of pelinal whitestrake, kill every thalmor I see, side with the stormcloaks is kind of a given.