Very interesting comparison! One reason might also be that PA-Systems and live mixing consoles in the 60ies didn't have the capabilities of the modern ones. So the mic engineers had to achieve the best possible sound in the first link of the signal chain.
The silver grill is more open, the black grill is more muddy (or it's the proximity effect tricks my ears into thinking that). I don't know if it's the paint job or the thickness but the black one looks more of a plastic alloy than a metal one, while the silver grill looks proper and the knit seems more refined. The silver one is the one you used in a previous video, I presume.
The older one sounded smoother with more definition across the lower frequency range. The mics of 70's Elvis EV RE15 were interesting in that aspect. The sloping frequency response is unique but served a purpose live, his presence was felt. The new mic appears to be missing the presence the older one has.
In your experience is there a truth to the fact that dynamic mics need some runtime to really open up and stop sounding sterile, meanwhile the condensers (except for the expensive ones) start to sound dimmer and dimmer over time? I haven't had that many different pieces to really find the difference. And did you noticed a difference between the first weeks' sound of a same-model-same-brand bought through a different time in a span of years? They say they use the same materials and technology for a 'legendary' or 'flagship' mics but no one can tell if the quality of metals is the same or the impurities level is up/down. Would love to hear your opinion on this, even if it's two, three sentences.
Difficult to say but I can imagine that running-in may make a difference. I will take the new M88 to school and give it a hammering with the kids, and then test again! Regarding materials, I have often wondered how it can be that old valves/tubes in guitar amps are better than new production - it's hardly rocket science. I read that the knowledge was lost (not written down) and that many materials are now deemed toxic, and can't be used. Get this, my sax playing friends tell me that a Selmer MkVI from back in the day, can't be beat. They say the brass isn't the same... on it goes. I have no idea but... my experience seems to tell me some of the older stuff is markedly 'better'.
@@AntonBrowne Thanks for the lengthy reply. I would love to hear about the results, whenever that may be. Your friends' comments on the materials confirmed something that I've already suspected. An option for one in search of "that sound" is to go on a dedicated thrift/second hand forum online in search of well aged and proper used dynamic mics and may very well find one, but that itself brings other questions such as "is it an original piece" or "does the owner damaged it and/or brought it near the end of its lifespan and it has a few months usage in it". The money aren't the most important thing you'll lose if that's the answer but rather time and motivation to keep on lookin'. Although my experience with seasoned musicians and engineers is that even if they slow down their working rate, they never willingly part ways with a vintage piece. I've tried on various occasions to purchase some stuff I had interest in from my friends, alas to no avail as of this moment. I guess the only reliable variant for a person having purchased a fairly new mic is to give it time and break it in, just like a new pair of shoes in hopes of maybe develop its sound over time. Cheers.
Hey! I'd really love to hear a comparison in 'newer' microphones that have some sort of proximity 'control' (Like the Shure KSM8, Earthworks Sr314/SV33 etc) to hear how their respective technologies differ in dealing with the proximity effect. Also maybe throw in a classic mic that has a high pass filter (SM7?) to see how the 'older' tech comparatively deals with the proximity effect. Awesome video as always!
Thanks for the comparison, I didn’t hear much difference in the two with silver colored head baskets but felt they both had a slightly smoother seemingly clearer high end than the TG. I know Beyer moved to a neodymium magnet at some point in the TG version and that certainly would alter the magnetic field providing a little better sensitivity. Perhaps that also had an impact on the tonality. I have the TG version and like it but none of the older ones to directly compare.
To my ears the middle one is ever so slightly better that the old one, but not a big difference. But the new one doesn’t sound nearly as good, I think. Have they perhaps improved the durability at the cost of some of the sound quality?
My ears are 63 years old but I still hear the difference between all three. I much prefer the older models. Perhaps the newer needs to be "burned in" more like they say about stereo audio cables which improve over time like a good wine.
Hi-Fi reviewers used to run-in speakers, and I can see how they might loosen up, microphones also, so maybe that has something to do with it. I think I will take it to school and give it some serious use and then see. Actually, a nice idea for a follow-up video.
The m88 is popular for use on kick drum so an older diaphragm could have been worked out mechanically at high spls. I noticed more difference in the m88 so it would make sense if that were the case. Also the glues and seals internally around the capsules drying up over time would likely change the sound too. Great mics though.
The middle one is my favourite for openness. Early one sounds older. They both have the new one beat. And yes that is worrying. Just like the m500 replacement the vr90 didn't last 2 years I think. The m500 lasten 40+ years! But! Caveat, newer microphone companies make better modern mice's. The Aston Spirit is great for the money. Ear trumpet, with their retro look, sound great. I think, and take it with just enough salt as to not damage your kidneys, that the new companies are still trying to conquer their place in market and some of the older companies are more and more concerned about the absolute greatest possible profit and counting on their name. Not that all they make is rubbish. I love the Neumann m49tlm it's not a real m49 but it isn't priced as such. There is a great video here on TH-cam where a studio goes through Neumann entire LDC line up plus vintage counterparts. And in a few cases it'd go for the new one.
I would certainly hope that current manufacturers can make great mics - it's not really rocket science... is it? Current inexpensive electric guitars, are way better than the horrible stuff of yesteryear.
Could the slight muddiness of the M88TG be due to a greater proximity effect and as such, possibly more sensitive than the older models. Therefore, it is a different mic than the older M88's and may require a slightly different mic technique. Pulling the M88TG back just a bit has less proximity effect and sounds more similar to the other M88s. However, I also noticed that when pulled back to reduce proximity effect, it didn't seem to be quite as quick as the others. While it's still an apples-to-apples comparison between the mics, the differences are more of a Gala-to-Royal Gala comparison. All three mics are fantastic!
You’re not wrong at all Anton! TG version is very noticeably less clear and open! ! In having conversed with Audix technical staff, I learned Audix uses the neodymium magnets in those budget F series mics. Their OM mics have AlNiCo magnets. Going TG (thicker) on the grill wires would have been that the older grills transferred mic drop shock to the capsule causing damage to diaphragm/coil. This is per the former Beyerdynamic US repair person. Plosives sounded about the same to me. The handling noise is notoriously worse than older versions! I just wonder if Beyerdynamic cares or is even listening!
I have noticed that the older grille is a bit springy which I would have thought acts a bit like a crumple zone on cars, reducing shock to internals. Heavier impacts cause it to deform and maybe then it damages the capsule. Nonetheless, they obviously survive, as I have a few that are decades old.
No. It's not just you. Even with my cheap speakers the difference is clear between the newer (black) model and the older M88. There was some mud to the newer one. And, yes the older one was clearer, brighter and more open. I'm 48 now and have believed this trend to be true of a great many products across the spectrum for at least the last 28 years. Not to be "that guy" but, I think it's a symptom of commercial greed. Prices increase while quality dips. Perhaps they think that the consumer will not notice... Or worse... They don't give a damn. Either way manufacturers never foresaw the vast quantity of in depth reviews that would arise with the internet and platforms like TH-cam. They could never assume that we would all hear it at the same time.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +1
Right in the center! Best comment, you are absolutely right!
Many new mics are made using graphs and measuring. Also, they are designed with manufacture costs as importance. It is a bit sad, but everybody wants more for less.. Meh..
Really interesting comparison and samples. Always great videos Anton.
Many thanks!
Very interesting comparison! One reason might also be that PA-Systems and live mixing consoles in the 60ies didn't have the capabilities of the modern ones. So the mic engineers had to achieve the best possible sound in the first link of the signal chain.
The silver grill is more open, the black grill is more muddy (or it's the proximity effect tricks my ears into thinking that). I don't know if it's the paint job or the thickness but the black one looks more of a plastic alloy than a metal one, while the silver grill looks proper and the knit seems more refined. The silver one is the one you used in a previous video, I presume.
You are right, the new one sounds worst. It's been like that for some guitar pedals too
The older one sounded smoother with more definition across the lower frequency range. The mics of 70's Elvis EV RE15 were interesting in that aspect. The sloping frequency response is unique but served a purpose live, his presence was felt. The new mic appears to be missing the presence the older one has.
In your experience is there a truth to the fact that dynamic mics need some runtime to really open up and stop sounding sterile, meanwhile the condensers (except for the expensive ones) start to sound dimmer and dimmer over time? I haven't had that many different pieces to really find the difference.
And did you noticed a difference between the first weeks' sound of a same-model-same-brand bought through a different time in a span of years? They say they use the same materials and technology for a 'legendary' or 'flagship' mics but no one can tell if the quality of metals is the same or the impurities level is up/down. Would love to hear your opinion on this, even if it's two, three sentences.
Difficult to say but I can imagine that running-in may make a difference. I will take the new M88 to school and give it a hammering with the kids, and then test again! Regarding materials, I have often wondered how it can be that old valves/tubes in guitar amps are better than new production - it's hardly rocket science. I read that the knowledge was lost (not written down) and that many materials are now deemed toxic, and can't be used. Get this, my sax playing friends tell me that a Selmer MkVI from back in the day, can't be beat. They say the brass isn't the same... on it goes. I have no idea but... my experience seems to tell me some of the older stuff is markedly 'better'.
@@AntonBrowne Thanks for the lengthy reply. I would love to hear about the results, whenever that may be. Your friends' comments on the materials confirmed something that I've already suspected.
An option for one in search of "that sound" is to go on a dedicated thrift/second hand forum online in search of well aged and proper used dynamic mics and may very well find one, but that itself brings other questions such as "is it an original piece" or "does the owner damaged it and/or brought it near the end of its lifespan and it has a few months usage in it".
The money aren't the most important thing you'll lose if that's the answer but rather time and motivation to keep on lookin'.
Although my experience with seasoned musicians and engineers is that even if they slow down their working rate, they never willingly part ways with a vintage piece. I've tried on various occasions to purchase some stuff I had interest in from my friends, alas to no avail as of this moment.
I guess the only reliable variant for a person having purchased a fairly new mic is to give it time and break it in, just like a new pair of shoes in hopes of maybe develop its sound over time. Cheers.
The older ones sound much better than the black one.
Hey! I'd really love to hear a comparison in 'newer' microphones that have some sort of proximity 'control' (Like the Shure KSM8, Earthworks Sr314/SV33 etc) to hear how their respective technologies differ in dealing with the proximity effect. Also maybe throw in a classic mic that has a high pass filter (SM7?) to see how the 'older' tech comparatively deals with the proximity effect. Awesome video as always!
Good idea.
Thanks for the comparison, I didn’t hear much difference in the two with silver colored head baskets but felt they both had a slightly smoother seemingly clearer high end than the TG. I know Beyer moved to a neodymium magnet at some point in the TG version and that certainly would alter the magnetic field providing a little better sensitivity. Perhaps that also had an impact on the tonality. I have the TG version and like it but none of the older ones to directly compare.
To my ears the middle one is ever so slightly better that the old one, but not a big difference. But the new one doesn’t sound nearly as good, I think. Have they perhaps improved the durability at the cost of some of the sound quality?
My ears are 63 years old but I still hear the difference between all three. I much prefer the older models. Perhaps the newer needs to be "burned in" more like they say about stereo audio cables which improve over time like a good wine.
Hi-Fi reviewers used to run-in speakers, and I can see how they might loosen up, microphones also, so maybe that has something to do with it. I think I will take it to school and give it some serious use and then see. Actually, a nice idea for a follow-up video.
The m88 is popular for use on kick drum so an older diaphragm could have been worked out mechanically at high spls. I noticed more difference in the m88 so it would make sense if that were the case. Also the glues and seals internally around the capsules drying up over time would likely change the sound too. Great mics though.
The middle one is my favourite for openness. Early one sounds older. They both have the new one beat. And yes that is worrying. Just like the m500 replacement the vr90 didn't last 2 years I think. The m500 lasten 40+ years!
But! Caveat, newer microphone companies make better modern mice's. The Aston Spirit is great for the money. Ear trumpet, with their retro look, sound great. I think, and take it with just enough salt as to not damage your kidneys, that the new companies are still trying to conquer their place in market and some of the older companies are more and more concerned about the absolute greatest possible profit and counting on their name.
Not that all they make is rubbish. I love the Neumann m49tlm it's not a real m49 but it isn't priced as such.
There is a great video here on TH-cam where a studio goes through Neumann entire LDC line up plus vintage counterparts. And in a few cases it'd go for the new one.
I would certainly hope that current manufacturers can make great mics - it's not really rocket science... is it? Current inexpensive electric guitars, are way better than the horrible stuff of yesteryear.
early one is amazing
Yup, a beaut!
Could the slight muddiness of the M88TG be due to a greater proximity effect and as such, possibly more sensitive than the older models. Therefore, it is a different mic than the older M88's and may require a slightly different mic technique. Pulling the M88TG back just a bit has less proximity effect and sounds more similar to the other M88s. However, I also noticed that when pulled back to reduce proximity effect, it didn't seem to be quite as quick as the others. While it's still an apples-to-apples comparison between the mics, the differences are more of a Gala-to-Royal Gala comparison. All three mics are fantastic!
You’re not wrong at all Anton! TG version is very noticeably less clear and open! ! In having conversed with Audix technical staff, I learned Audix uses the neodymium magnets in those budget F series mics. Their OM mics have AlNiCo magnets. Going TG (thicker) on the grill wires would have been that the older grills transferred mic drop shock to the capsule causing damage to diaphragm/coil. This is per the former Beyerdynamic US repair person. Plosives sounded about the same to me. The handling noise is notoriously worse than older versions! I just wonder if Beyerdynamic cares or is even listening!
I have noticed that the older grille is a bit springy which I would have thought acts a bit like a crumple zone on cars, reducing shock to internals. Heavier impacts cause it to deform and maybe then it damages the capsule. Nonetheless, they obviously survive, as I have a few that are decades old.
Early one is the best. The new one sounds "cheap" to me.
did you check the cables?
Nope, but will do... and the desk channel.
@@AntonBrowne did you ever hear a difference in using different cables?
No. It's not just you. Even with my cheap speakers the difference is clear between the newer (black) model and the older M88. There was some mud to the newer one. And, yes the older one was clearer, brighter and more open. I'm 48 now and have believed this trend to be true of a great many products across the spectrum for at least the last 28 years. Not to be "that guy" but, I think it's a symptom of commercial greed. Prices increase while quality dips. Perhaps they think that the consumer will not notice... Or worse... They don't give a damn. Either way manufacturers never foresaw the vast quantity of in depth reviews that would arise with the internet and platforms like TH-cam. They could never assume that we would all hear it at the same time.
Right in the center! Best comment, you are absolutely right!
@ Thanks. Just hope I didn't come off as overly pessimistic.
Many new mics are made using graphs and measuring. Also, they are designed with manufacture costs as importance.
It is a bit sad, but everybody wants more for less.. Meh..
Everything is going to shit.
The Boomer mic wins!
??? Ah, baby boomer... 1960's
Sure enough; the new one sucks royally. Mud and sugarcoating. Nasty handling noise.