Jungle Comparison - Episode 2: Jungle Role. (League VS Dota 2)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- Part two in my multi-part series comparing the jungle between League Of Legends and Dota 2. This time, we're doing a role comparison!
TWITCH: / tzar_potato
Discord: discord.gg/sxMHGSm
When everybody's a Jungler no one is.
I thought about adding that Incredibles scene honestly
If you can remember that cliff in left radiant jungle as a NP player, that was a peak pos 4 experience.
CLIFF FURION FUCKING HELL
Cliff farming was meta
Medusa!
He admitted it! Get him before he can escape!
and i used to pick techies smoke and tp early to put red mine in that cliff so when the NP tp there i got 1st blood or atleast a kill
Oh...the cursed memories of the Medusa / Necrophos level 1 ancient creeps farming strat.
Even when it was possible, it was still really scuffed.
@@TZAR_POTATO Yeah, that's the thing. It was the kind of strat you wished your enemy did instead of an ally.
i still remember jungling was a thing in dota 2, before talon claw was added to make it easier, but it was only limited to a few heroes, it's either they have summoning abilities, sustain, or can tank and deal a lot of dmg.
Right, but meta before and during TI4 was always a bit on the weird side compared to today, where all that mattered is pushing, there were just 2 cores unless there was a jungler, and some summoners just broke the balance
Jungling can still work for those same heroes, and there are some strats you can use so your lane buddy gets solo XP while you farm camps. It's just not used very often because those heroes now do better in lane fighting players. Either way, thank goodness no more LC Talon L1 losses.
NP cliff farming still gives me nightmare sometimes
In the starting clip, if Izma showed a picture of Venomancer, then i'd have busted out of laughs xD
@@ExpertMaster2 hehe. Well I hope you had at least a small chuckle anyways
It's also a result of Dota having more complex character design. LoL's champions are fairly simply, so their numbers often mean more than their mechanics. In Dota2 a support down 5 levels and with few items can still gank perfectly fine if they use their skills well and have some coordination. In LoL that simply does not happen because the opponents stat stick is bigger than yours and you get whacked
Lol champions are absolutely not simple. These memes about abilities having 3 paragraphs of text aren't made up.
The problem is, from that wall of text, which is actually useful and relevant? League is an extremely snowball heavy game, you have more nw = your numbers are better = your opponent can't fight you! And at the end of the day you just want to dodge every shiny skillshot flying in your way anyways, because if you get hit by one you are probably dead.
Dota skills and items only need 1 line of text, but it's a really powerful line of text. 'You are immune to cc for 9s tops.' 'Stun every motherhubberd on your screen.' 'You have 16% chance for your next right click to delete a guy.' Thus you actually need to know what the skills and items do.
@@absolutelynotadog7498 Many text =/= many difficult. Akshan is a textwall, but only really has one skill that actually needs you to read what it does. He still is as simple as Sniper for example.
Anyone can slap stuff on kit to make a complex design. Is it a good design with actual depth in case of Dota? Not really.
And you statement is completely wrong. Support have long since work well on their own with just their abilities. A zero item Leona can hit all her abilities and lock down your full build adc for 3 seconds which is more than enough to be killed by other team member. It's just that they need to hit their abilities, which is one sole weakness of Dota 2 player. Hence they think they need stats and item for that.
Further more, the simple of of skill shots contain so much depth that Dota player couldn't even notice. You have to dodge, hit your skill shot, bait, zone, know the range which dodging by reflex is simply not possible anymore, observer their pattern and predict. It's truely a game of player vs player, unlike Dota which is the game of player vs game mechanic.
@@cynt4416 Hmm it's been a while since I've made that comment. But really I think we just have different visions for what a moba game should be. I look at it as a strategy game, where I like finding the correct answer to my opponent's problems so I go to dota. You look at it as an action/mechanical game, sort of like a fighting game or an fps, where outsmarting the enemy in micro engagements matter a bit more so you prefer league. So idk man, maybe it's just hard to apply the optimal thought process of one game to another.
@@absolutelynotadog7498 The real difference between league and dota modernly is that league focuses on balancing champs for their lane while Dota focuses on balancing champs for the game.
I heard the Summoning Salt intro music and thought I had been auto played into one. My guy, you in my pocket at work right now. Don't confuse a brother like that. Lololololololol
sorry ;)
Actually GO BACK TO WORK! Be grateful you have work... not all of us are so lucky :(
@@TZAR_POTATO my dear friend, I am usually done with my 8 hour shift in less than 4. We good. I'm that good at my job.
League Patch Notes:
-5% AP scaling on a basic ability
Dota Patch Notes:
We removed a role...
BAHAHAHA yes, never thought about it that way :D
ACCURATE!!
actual league patches over time we rework champs so hard you cant play their fun unique ap playstyle anymore
(source : Im one of these bring back season 3 doomers)
example master yeet mostly physical dmg dealer q(kinda jugg swiftslash) once able to2shot entire team with cool nieche playstyle 0% scaling with ability power change. if you wanna see something old and funny search for the adventures of full AP Yi
@@Snailing_Suika you know we aren't being serious right? Both games have big patches, but it's impossible to deny that data's patches are generally more wild. That's the point behind this joke comment.
Jungling in DotA was a thing from way before Iron Talon, but only few heroes could do it efficiently enough. Examples that come to mind are Lifestealer breaking a tree and being able to farm hard camp at level 1 one creep at the time, Enigma microing eidolons, Chen with dominated creeps, Lycan with wolves, Troll by cutting treeline and killing creeps from range. Nerfs included the change where creeps didn't spawn at second 0 anymore, less xp, less gold, change in how the camps are distributed, etc., etc., etc.
I'm fairly certain that there was a point where jungle in DotA was so strong that you would be able to outlevel your mid and outfarm your carry in certain jungle heroes. Not taking into account things like that there were heroes that could do solo Rosh before minute 10 and some of those would also be good at jungling (Lycan and Troll, for example). NP would farm faster than anyone, and could win the game by himself without being in contact with their team once the whole game.
The ones suffering where only the offlaners, as they had to play 2v1. One person not having fun while the other 4 had fun. That was the problem. Although most offlaners were maniacs that enjoyed doing whatever they could in that bad situation to piss off the enemy carry and support and throw them off their A game...
Yes, i said that in the video. I did mention, that jungling can't be done efficiently without iron talon by all except a very few.
@TZAR_POTATO there were entire metas that were dominated by jungle heroes, when jungling was stronger, even before Iron Talon. And there's another thing: ratting. It was also a big part for junglers in DotA, not just farming and ganking. Many of the jungle heroes were really good at ratting (or just applying pressure, if you will), and ratting also fell of grace thanks to many things, examples being reduced TP cost, TP on death, backpack (then TP slot), glyph reworks, map changes, etc.
This is the real reason TBH. Over the years, jungle creeps rewards kept getting nerfed, and lane creep rewards kept getting buffed.
Even heroes that could jungle from lvl 1, it just wasn't worth it anymore. Especially if it meant you were sacking one lane, and giving up on tons of exp and gold compared to what you pulled out of the jungle.
Iron Talon also wasn't just removed for the effect it had on junglers. People found out that it was just too cost-efficient of an item, so many pro teams just had 5 people with an Iron Talon walking around, increasing farm speed everywhere. If every hero buys an item 100% of the time, what is the point of the item? Same reason stout shield was removed and just rolled into all melee heroes.
Currently Venomancer can do all that you said with his second facet, but I find it better to just lane with it since you can bully your enemies out of lane.
Wards are the new Gale m'dudes!
I still remember farming acients with necrophos passive level 1, struggling with microing summons with enigma and lycan, good times when i had no idea what i was doing and trying everything
glad you're back dude!
Me too!
Jungle in dota is a resource for everyone to use.
Especially in the early game.
In League, you pretty much ruined your jungler whole game if you took 1 camp in the early game.
In dota, the jungle camp is a tool to balance the laning phase. Like if you are in the losing lane, you can pull jungle creep to regain lane equalibrium. Enemies can counter this, but they have to spent time and money to do so. Nicely balanced
Unlike in League. If you are in a losing lane, there are nothing that you can do. Other than beg the jungler to gank, and if you play top lane? You are reallu out of luck.
Never thought about it that way, but yes, jungle in Dota is in it's own weird way a comeback mechanic. If your lane was obliterated you still have jungle as an option. Especially in the post-expanded-map era, where there are two well-defended parts of the map (farther from enemies, entrances are near towers, easier to ward effectively and so on) to farm to at least get some items and try to stay relevant.
On the other hand, if you are winning, its not really worth your time to farm jungle, because one hunted hero is always better than one cleared camp
Bad toplaner are the one that lose lane and deserve to lose. And good game should not bail them out of their own mistake.
Good toplanner don't usually lose their lane, and even if they do, they know how to be useful elsewhere, like assist your own jungler to starve the enemies jungler, turret diving the other lane and destroy their turret, gaining strategic advantage, etc...
This is mainly the problem of dota player who know nothing about real strategy because of playing dota...and bad player in general.
@@cynt4416 let say 2 top players are at equal skill.
You got ganked, your opponent does not.
There are no ways to comeback, unless your opponent also got ganked
So the outcome of the laning phase does not rest in your hand.
I does not meant the outcome of the game. Just how strong you are, that should depends on how good you play and not "if you got a good teammates"
That is a bad game design.
@@sentryward8744 Do you know why Dragon is bot side instead of top side?
If they spend 2 people to crush one people, logically speaking that one people would, and more importantly SHOULD be in serve disadvantage.
This is a team game, not a solo match. If you play as if you are solo, and the opponent play as a team, of course you would lose. You deserve to lose.
If your game allow you to come back 1 vs 2, there there's obviously something wrong with the balancing. That much is obvious.
@@cynt4416 a team game is different to a game based on luck if you got a teammates with a developed brain or not.
Which most league players do not have
Funny how Guinsoo wanted to remove Smite in League in Season 3
The rest of the company said no?
sadly they didnt - but I've been sick enough of the random factor of a ruined lane that I cant leave in league (jungling is leagues worst design flaw in my opinion)
so I joined dota and never wanna come back I love it here now
my lanes fucked in dota guess I just group up and push a tower and collect some runes,. clear a camp or 2 and still having fun.
general league experience (especially for toplaners): slowly waiting out a aleady lost game with less chances to come back often times. fuck lane exp and the 1 guy that randomly comes and ruins your entire game for beeing there once at minute 3-7.
8 years of league - not even a full year dota and I love it more. (also why they nerf everything from old league that was fun like removing Deathfire Grasp, ap tristana and AP yi all fun stuff gone. just do it like dota and buff eveything to be broken!)
Good thing they didn't. It would make the game worse and slowly approach the level of cringe in Dota 2.
In Dota 2, even they make stupid decision and give you advantage, they still have tons of things that none-interactive to stall out the game. In league, winning a smite battle could become one of the most exciting things to take back a losing match. And it feel GOOD, since the entire team have to work for it, right in front of the enemies face
@@cynt4416 Smite, but not necessarily jungle, is bad for the game. Smite itself literally adds nothing. I like the way league manages Jungle because of how much timing and rotation is involved. Smite itself has no skill after maybe silver rank because once you get two people who know how to use it, the one who wins the teamfight for it almost always gets the smite in. And if a support gets it, it's just annoying. Its only use is to farm camps faster at this point which is stupid because that can be solved by just lowering the jungle camps HP. It occupies a summoner spell slot and makes the jungler overall less a threat because of it
@@poetryflynn3712 yes, as if there is anything wrong with that logic. If you win fight, you deserve to have enormous advantage in the smite contest. Or else, what is the point?
Out side of it, smite provide a good way to specialization of jungler. I guess you havent play league when Smite wasnt mandatory yet. I destroy the enemies jungler with spell advantage in their own jungle since smite contribute nothing in PvP.
Lower jungle creep HP would make funneling tactic possible and turn it into a game of carry vs carry at the cost of agency in other role just like dota.
One IMPORTANT thing:
Lane Creeps are ALWAYS way better to farm than the jungle. So as a core player you will never jungle when you can farm a lane. The only reason you would pick the jungle is because it is safer to do so or because you're clearing a stack. You don't want to jungle when not needed effectively reducing your GPM.
Along the reasons why jungler died are:
*Camps spawning as late as minute 1.
*Denies halving the exp (this also killed the solo offlane meta)
*Jungle stats buffed while their bounty nerfed.
Love the intro and the LC jungling with Iron Talon, ahhh the memories...
1:55 I almost didn't recognize my voice there lmfao
The first time I saw someone jungling in DOTA was when a streamer had a pos 5 jungling Nyx and lets just say they didn't have fun lol
Another point I would have loved you to talk about is how ganking works in League (full clears, half clears, 2 camp ganks, etc.) and other uses of Smite, most famously "Smite Singed Support", where you'd instantly invade at the start of the game and steal the enemy jungler's blue buff and then gank Top IMMEDIATELY (instead of going to help your Carry in lane). The most famous person to do it (with a 60-70% winrate) got banned for it with a very... lacking explanation by a Riot employee.
The early days of Drow's reworked Marksmanship did brought back the jungler era for a bit on her alone.
At lvl 6 she used to deal massive damage to Ancient creeps.
she'd 1 shot most creeps on the map. That's not the same as being a jungler though, in the capacity outlined in the video.
Great example to use Legion Commander as an example with the dreaded Iron Talon item jungle.
She deserves to cry in the jungle after that patch (dopatwo vid reference).
Glad you like it :)
Just started Dota 2 a couple of months ago, but played Dota Allstars and LoL a long time before.
I was initially surprised there are no junglers anymore, but by now I'm glad they removed it.
Also, fuck that one Chen in one specific game that left me alone on the offlane to jungle from minute zero. We somehow won that.
Dude getting left solo because someone "wanna jungle" minute 0, that just sucks man. When that happens to me, I also fuck off and go jungle. It's impossible rn to solo any side lane early on. Supports are so powerful!
That one Chen mastermind
@@TZAR_POTATO Yeah. Maybe if he jungled nearby he could've dipped in to help now and then, but he jungled on the safe lane jungle near the edge of the map.,
If you ever watched final from first TI there are 3 solo lanes and support helping jungle. Very fun to watch nowadays.
I remember this game from a couple years ago: th-cam.com/video/nV3EYlc4tnY/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Kreafy
Virtus Pro pulled of a huskar jungle in a totally non-meta jungle patch. That was amazing, they managed to win it. As notail said, everything can work, that's why dota is a beautiful game
Well we just got og busting out jungle pudge and it kinda worked? So yeah
In high elo in LOL, if your jungle plays for oneside, for example, top side, the bot can become a pseudo-jungler and take the farm. From mid game, clearing camps get easier, so when that situation happens, yes, it will be a little bit like DOTA jungler.
When I play support in league I feel entirely incapable of killing big jungle monsters :(
Veno is the one hero who can jungle without griefing, with the ward facet u get lvl 6 and one item super early to snowball the game from there
Ah yes Iron Talon I remember how I discovered a broken Jungler Role with offlane warlock where you would cast fatal bonds on neutrals and use iron talon on strongest creep and it would just erase nearly half of their health. Plus there was not intended interaction between iron talon and quelling blade when you carried them both the bonus damage to non hero units would stack for some reason.
Boys iron talon into midas into blademail legion actually gives me ptsd....
And now the Iron Talon is back and does 80% instead of 40%. Good times!
@@pt8306 dude I know wtf is the frog thinking??! This will not last, I guarantee it.
@@TZAR_POTATO I feel like the changes to the jungle in the current version of the game have made jungling early much less viable overall anyway, so the Iron Talon returning seems more like a midgame jungling buff, or even a support item to help them get more gold easily, rather than an item designed for hard carries. I guess we will see how it goes.
Never played Dota during the Iron Talon years, but I played HoN from like 09-2012. I just wish it still felt like a optional thing to do for heroes like Lycan, Axe, and Enigma these days.
Tzar potato remembered his password
Never forgotten.
I remember jungling in dota
Enigma and LC
LC i buy 2 stout shields
XD
Man Its a funny era
I do not miss it :D
At that time you will always encounter it in PUBs
my question for leauge player is that. if the jungle is for the jungler, where does the carry get its money? or every carry is just early kill base timing carry like CK,spectre, etc. that cant be right
the carry is the bot laner, he only takes lane minions. also except for maybe proplay, or certain cheese strats (google taric + yi) league deosnt really have a carry. ignore the name ADC, its complete bait
League carries (aka ADC / Marksman / Bot) Stay in lane... forever. They only leave to help get neutral objectives, and then almost immediately go back to the lanes. Laning stage never really ends in League of Legends
Hey! League player here.
ADC gets its income from cs and kills in lane...that's pretty much it.
Bought an item? Back to bot lane to farm more. Killed your lane opponents? Take their bot tower and then help with objectives and then go mid or join teamfights.
@@TZAR_POTATO yikes boring gameplay when you got owned and can do nothing terrible play loop
@@TZAR_POTATO Do that in Dota always going to the dead lane and you will die repeatedly and get reported. Glad that we have an abundance of jungle camps to farm around especially after 7.33.
my god i still remember the time where iron talon reintroduced as a neutral item, there was a very very big surge of legion players wanting to play jungle to the point that they will even abandon a match if legion get banned.
Thus why Legion is my choice of hero to show off the item :D
All jungle camps respawn in 60sec, im not sure where you got the 30sec average in DotA
It's just the mathematical average. Almost no camps in dota respawn in 60 seconds after killed.
you've been coaching more league players into dota than ever before - yeah vanguard will do that
@@RJCMaxification true
Bro i have a request , please make a video about the pioneers of dota like merlini, bulba , EE etc.
Merlini is the first one pioneered jungle creep stacking
Bulba is the first one farming ancients with march of the machinws
I've made 1 history video, and don't think I'll make many more... especially not about players, mostly about the game as a standalone. Thanks for the suggestion though!
I still jungle role veno is amazing jungle lvl1 this patch
Oh god...
Tzar potato, have you tried the dota 2 vs LoL arcade game? its very fun and i want to hear you talking 'bout it.
I've seen a lot of other youtube vids about it. There's already good content out there
it's been 23 years.....
Oh come now, it's not THAT bad :D
@@TZAR_POTATO are you gonna address jungle stacks in a future video? or was it in the last one, can't remember it's been so long :D
@@ChriSX13 It was in the last one I think :)
Isnt like Antimage a jungler? I mean he is a carry who cant help his team until he bought all items he needs, and it takes half an hour to do so, 30 minutes of unstoppable farming.
As pos 1 player, im gonna say this to my team
Dont u dare touch my baby i buy bf just for them, they are all mine and mine alobe
Rip stout shield
i still go jungle with axe in archon ( in all pick though)
Do you want to leave archon sometime?
@@TZAR_POTATO its a nice life
@@TZAR_POTATO also dont you think that mr.ice_frog added the 7hp buff for a reason
average respawn: 60s *** for dota, i'm sure it was just a brain fart
Nope, 30 seconds. NA math showing?
You can kill a camp any time between the minute marks. That means at MOST it will respawn in a minute, and at LEAST it will respawn in the next second. The average of a minute and a second is 30 seconds, rounding.
This is also considering time to kill a camp vs potential of stacked camps. They cancel out, more or less.
Respawn time in Dota is based on your hero level and how high you are on the networth leaderboard at that point in the game. If you're high level and at the top 3 networth then you are gonna be dead for a long while. It's also the reason why supports respawn faster and have less money needed for buyback. Also dying after using buyback adds an extra 25 seconds to respawn time I think.
@@imfinishedgrinding638 watch the video first, please :)
@@TZAR_POTATO It's just very confusing hearing 30 second camp respawn time. It's correct since it's an average, but confusing. Everyone knows the respawn time is at the start of every minute or every minute. I also didn't understand it at first and was like "wtf 30 seconds are lane creeps, not jungle smh."
i hate jungle, that why i play dota 2.
HI TADASHI
Hi Potato
@@tadashii02 lol, your reply had a "translate to english" button. I clicked it, nothing happened, but it said "translated by google"
Lol
well ,dota 2 has no Jungler tbh, only lure and stack camp for later farming would be easier to carry, and no, you don't walk into jungle at lvl 1, the creep can kill you easily, dota2 creep is extremely strong and bullshit because we have control creeps units like Chen, Beast Master or Enchantress or even Lycan if he is degen enough
Please watch my video, and tell me what you think after
i wanna play dota
Do it! Come say hi in discord.
one simple reason why
Dota > League
That's not very simple. I mean come on, I'm making hours worth of video content comparing the two!
LC jungle is goat
please no, the horror!
why does this role work for league? It doesn't
Thank you very much
hahaha wtf?
@@TZAR_POTATO played league for 11 years at least 2 years on every role. I would in a heartbeat remove smite from the game and bring it closer to 2nd roaming support.
It’s a role that gets way too much power for no reason.
When Xp gain and gold gain is good they power farm so you don’t get ganks anyway and when it’s bad you just have a roaming tank support.
It’s boring coz riot keeps jng stronger than the rest of lanes otherwise no one would play it so ppl who do play are usually handless monkeys 🙈 compared to everyone else in their elo(don’t @ me for that that’s true put any midlaner in jng and they will do just fine, put jungler on mid and he goes 0/6 as zed into kassadin).
And then you have ppl who play nothing but jng and act like a anime mc.
Frustrating
Please remove jng 🙏
Maybe then I’ll go back to league
you still alive?
Dude I'm streaming every other day, of course I'm alive :D
First video I've caught from you that I actually dislike.
2:42 , I really feel like you miss the point or just come close enough to understanding league but still miss, and it really starts here for me in this video.
People enjoy ganking because that's the real value of jungle, when you can impact the enemy team and give your team an advantage. You also don't have to be a jungler just gank lanes, supports do it commonly and we both know lanes will roam to gank.
3:13 , noting here the difference in jungle camps and times.
5:15 , noting that smite in DoTA is boring for the player just clearing and everyone watching. I really feel like you can see why it works in League vs DoTA because of the pacing of the jungle camps respawn and number of camps but you just never bring it full circle for me.
6:14 , now here is where the problem for me is. I actually don't see where you come away from this with the opinion that jungle doesn't belong in League because of your examples such as: "people get auto filled!", "It's too strong!", "It's blamed and misunderstood for game losses.". That's actually just skill issues and Riot not listening to people when we say that autofill is garbage.
It feels like you're ignoring how different both games are and just want league to be more similar to DoTA since you like it more.
6:34 , Are there actually long periods of time when no one jungles and it's not considered to be inefficient though? (outside of when the game starts)
Also seeing the people posing comments like "How carry supposed to get gold?" and you are misleading in your reply. The video and your commentary just feel disingenuous, disappointed because I've really enjoyed some of your earlier videos.
Sorry that you don't like this one, but here are my replies to your comments (except for "noting" as idk what you mean there)
1. People enjoy ganking. That's the point though, if the jungler never EVER ganked, it would be way less popular a role than it is now... from what I've gathered, anecdotally.
2. Smite wasn't boring, it's the meta that arose in dota when smite was available. It was a really common pick up, and players would run into the jungle, not to be seen again for a quarter of the game. Today, yes people go jungling, but at least they spend the first 5-10 minutes in the lanes where they can be played into and against. Then, the jungling in the midgame can be countered by enemy ganks. Having a jungler level 1 in dota meant a) one person doesn't see other players for a while even from start b) one person has a lane 2v1 and suffers. The META was boring and efficient, and when asked, pros very often said they wanted the item removed.
3. League is balanced around the jungler role, but the jungler player often ends up being kicked around by unhappy teammates. "Jungle Diff" is extremely commonly used as a phrase to complain about the jungler. I'm no the only one thinking this, as I did look at a couple other videos first for research, and it seems pretty common that people think junglers are hated or misunderstood. Little learned in the lane transfers to the jungle and vice versa.
4. Dota has long periods of game time with someone jungling, but not for the first 10 minutes or so.
5. My answer was that the league ADCs go farm the lane. I don't know why you thik that's a misleading reply, it's literally true.
I'd be happy to sit down and have a discussion, I want to know what you think of my replies.
Lmao, in League, roaming support exists but only as a subset in the support roster. Idk which server you play but in my experience from my server Vietnam and everyone else on other esrvers, support is pretty much a sitting duck to babysit carry, literally position 5 in DOTA 2. I don't claim you can't gank as a support. But no one expects you to gank as a support and if the gank fail, you are not only die but also leave your ADC vulnerable and might die as well. This is why most people agree ganking is a jungler job. It is just how Riot wants to confine each role to their respective job. This is why the role is hated, not just skill issue. You can't fucking blame the players when the system is designed to encourage players to blame. You have 4 fucking roles being sitting duck with little to no incentive to interact with the lane, and then there is the jungler who could bring impact by ganking and applying pressure anywhere on the map. It's different from DOTA 2 where everyone, maybe exclude position 1, can gank to save teammates or apply pressure.
I fucking play both game and I know you are just refusing to understand what Tzar Potato was saying in the video. This is such a fucking League player mentality to cherry pick words from people mouth then twist it to your preference.
Do you fucking know why they nerf Teleport in League? It's because they don't want any form of macro play to be strong. They fucking hate pro play abusing it to get to lane faster or even ganking other lane. Top is the isolated island because of this. The only spell that gives them the ability to traverse anywhere on the map to assert pressure is fucking nerfed. Riot's intention is never changed. They want jungler to be the most impactful role just so people can accept playing it. They don't fucking understand by alleviating jungler's job, it can be less stressful and more beginner friendly. I've been playing League since season 3. I never try jungler even when it was coined as official role. I never like the idea of the jungle and I know majority of the people never try jungler because of that as well.
This video feels like a genuine fundamental misunderstanding of how jungle in LoL works by a guy who very casually played LoL in season 5 before quitting
"farming camps, ganking, and objectives" are literally the jobs of the jungle yes, but from bronze and above there is far more to the role then simply "full clear, gank, contest objective" and the insinuation that the role is unnecessary is bizarre
Dota and LoL are two different games with different design philosophy, saying "this game should be more like this other game" is so utterly pointless I can't even bring myself to actually explain why
You clearly enjoy Dota more
So just play Dota?
Such accusations, I'll try and respond!
1. I don't play league much, because yes, I just enjoy dota more. But, I watch pro league a lot, almost every tournament. It's fun, and rewarding! And, from what I see, yes the jungler role seems mostly to just be "hit creeps, gank, objective". This isn't a video on how to play, so I felt that a quick summary was enough.
2. I never claimed that one game should be more like the other, except for two videos, the client comparison, and the new player experience comparison. In all the others, I try and have a central point.
There's bias showing in this video, but I tried my best to remove myself from it. When literally all I hear from league players is either "i jungle" or complaints about the jungler, things just seem to point toward it feeling imbalanced. Why does it feel like there's no match where both teams are happy with their junglers?
tbf, we're currently in a full clear meta, so it's literally full clear -> reset -> gank, except for some junglers like Shaco who can 2/3 camp into a top or bot gank, which they then HAVE to get value out of or they ruined their clear
I agree that jungler is more than that but honestly that's the problem, jungler has too many jobs for a single role. Tell me how is it balanced that a jungler role is to full clear, gank, go neutral buffs, help lane objective, full map awareness, shout calling, vision control and many more while ADC's job is to just stay in lane farming and don't die? Literally every game the losing team will blame the jungler if no one feeds and it's just unfair.
"you clearly enjoy dota more"
of course! dota is the better game than lol lmao.
Not looking to argue which game is better etc. Im just curious, what are the pros of a dedicated jungle role in lol?