19:00 i contract in enterprise IT and its the one thing that i love doing. If I get a contract that involves a full deep dive rebuild or replacement it’s some of the most rewarding work I can get. I get his enthusiasm. I just hope there’s enough support and resources internally to do it within the next year. They are running out of time and community good will now.
Nah, community good will is fine -- just some loud people who either need to understand how software engineering works or move on to other low-class AAA outings like Starfield or Outlaws if they want a quick-fix that isn't good.
Don't need to know how software engineering works when it's clear that bad management and scope creep has been burning away good will for years. They're on borrowed time.
I expected this episode to at least say "We did it" but nope. All they said is we're still working on it and will probably have to rework it again in the future. 10 more years of development is what I'm betting on.
>I expected this episode to at least say "We did it" but nope. This is from today: "We have a new 4.0 build for release to Evocati later today on EPTU with a 2:2:380 mesh config (2 Star systems with 2 Servers each with 380 total players in the shard). This is a potential Wave 1 candidate if build proves worthy after a few hours with Evos!"
I just stopped waiting and supporting this project financially. I have dropped something around 400$ on this project and not giving them a dime more. Just cutting my losses, if it will happen - it will hapen, if not then I guess I got scammed. I don't expect anything from them anymore. I'm not hyped, I'm not angry I just don't care. I'll watch a video on SC every now and then but that's about it.
Honestly, I think the non-cynical reason they've allowed EVO to be streamed is because they want to keep player counts up to stress the mesh and determine if the fixes they're putting out are actually working. EVO and PTU player-counts tend to drop over time, as people get bored of the new elements... and streamers especially don't want to be in EVO if they can't show it on stream. So by allowing people to stream it, their view counts go up because its something new, and CIG gets a consistent stress test going to quickly iterate on their optimizations.
Optimization is not a priority. The current version of meshing does not actually work, so what they're calling "optimization" is actually making it playable.
Im glad to know that 4.0 will be as broken and non fuctionnal as a normal CIg patches, i was scared to be jumping in a game wih good performance with stuff actually working... Thats super cool that they dont change the game to much so we can still feel at home in 4.0! SC Reach for the star but crash befaure launching the rocket!
4.0 Evocati with 380 players works better than any previous build of the game, and runs smoother than the current live patch and other PTU patches. Not sure where people are getting all of this negativity from.
@@Billy-bc8pk Probably from seeing smaller companies with smaller budgets putting out functional, finished products in 1/10th the time, with ongoing live service and ongoing QoL upgrades and content expansions post launch.
@@4tonmike Yes, smaller games with smaller scopes, fewer features, and smaller budgets have that advantage. Next you'll tell me how amazed you were to find out that the Sonic trilogy of games were each made within one year. - gasp -
Thanks Mike! Yes, it currently is a 2 servers per system and 380 players (2:2:380) shard How cool that several of our streamer community were mentioned at the end!
The sole reason he is critical about this video and pretending to not udenrstand it is that he is upset they did not use his content. Maybe he should try making some instead of commenting on others for a living!
@@PirateKing-tb9ev This. Also, when people make a living crapping on the project more often than not, don't be surprised they are not all that keen on said individual
@@PirateKing-tb9evthe only progress is them making ships. The game is still the broken mess like it was a decade ago. Chris just keeps waking up and saying one more thing in a year that’s 365 new things then one day he’ll say nvm. That’s why 4.0/1.0 got gutted. Stop focusing on base building, engineering, all of these need to be on the shelf and focus on finishing the game.
@@Astelch 1, its not been a decade. We barely had hangars at the start of 2018 2. Its still very much Alpha. SDLC has Alpha as content and tech build up. Beta as optimisation. Then live. as in actual 1.0 We are not there yet. Actual development started 2016. Prior to that was concept and building a team and business. 3. CIG did not have a large team and company at the ready to do this. They had to go from 1person to what we have today. With no capital no seeding apart from what we OG backers gave them. PS today you are backing it with ships. Not buying the game. The game is $40. Stick with that if you want to play and not back it. 4. Yes scope creep and missed deadlines has been a thing. Part of any project. 5. Go watch Grolos Video on just the proposed cost of hosting this game. Then come back to me about cost of ships and the need for them. We are talking thousands per hour to host this game. This does not include the development. To put this into perspective. Grolo lays the costs, compllexities of hosting, the complexities, and cost of Datacentres out so well. I would rather build a datacentre than a game like SC. Those are highly complex projects built from nothing to operation in 2 years. I pick that all day over doing something on the scale of SC without starting capital and a Team. With all their faults and missed deadlines I take my hat of with what they have achieved. Have they been dicks yes. Have they over promised yes. Are they deliverying so far yes. And before you ask yes I do have indepth experience in building and operating DCs. I do udnerstand the basic fundamentals of SDLC and what it takes to make projects at the scale of SC work.
It's like building a bridge, there's no bridge but they open it for cars to cross it, using the cranes and stuff to move the cars along the way while building the bridge at the same time
It's building the house at the same time as the foundation, having to keep demolishing and rebuilding every part of the house as you dig the foundation underneath
The other thing about community footage is that it falls in line with their stance on PR they set at citizen con with the game demo is theyre just saying here is how its working outside of our polished internal environment.
It sounds like they've basically switched from TCP to UDP (logically, not literally) for server to client communications, and switched to larger packets per transmit rather than lots of smaller transmits because the wait time was building up too much. Both of these aren't necessarily improvements, they're just tradeoffs that they believe will benefit the environment they've built. The server to client method means you could still lose states of things (think arguing with your org mates about whether your landing gear is down or not) if you have a bad connection. Even worse depending on how much they're bundling in each packet thats transmitted. If the servers were so bad packets weren't getting out in the first place then it doesn't matter though. Other than that it does sound like they want to focus quite a bit on cleaning up the servers which will help reduce that data load.
@@TKanal3 I'm a It systems engineer focused in virtualized infrastructure. If I wanted a job related to CIG I'd apply to Amazon to work on their AWS hosting. Yes I'm posturing about what they're doing based on the information we have, but how is that any different than posturing about how X or Y new system will work when its in game "soon"?
you cant 'switch' TCP to UDP for all client to server and server to client communications, you can only do it for read only operations, it's a broadcast protocol every live video stream does it so that the content distribution network isn't serving up the same repo repository for every single client burning out the CPU, so it's a combination of both, when they're referencing dirty variables they mean the excess metadata related to the entities that is being streamed across the network to give game state updates with the tick rate, likewise all of those millions of entities have their own physics states and can be on any number of shard and server combinations, easy to track and develop for it most certainly is not, previously they were single core bound on the server side too which is why they are talking about hyperthreading the workload (Parallelism) so that when the Client Update requests come in if they bottle neck they can start sending them to new cores and dynamically ramp up the cores in the cloud to cope with the load.
@@DeadLuckArchives because thats what players experience. Even if it's not meant as fear-mongering, most people reading your comment will not understand what you mean and will simply get the impression that this or that might not be possible or might be possible. I think this is inappropriate for backers to really worry about until CIG through actions prove that they are incapable of achieving what they promised. Backers, in my opinion, should worry more about things like game design and what they would enjoy in the game, less so about the background technology.
I have always respected your takes on this project, I think they are very balanced for the most part. It just sucks that your community has become the sanctuary of the refundians at this point. That twitch chat is a cesspool.
Sadly true. The problem is that the troll brigades have wholesale taken over certain channels, this one being one of the prime ones, as well as Morphologis in recent times. It's just chock full of anti-SC comments. If you're looking for news or information and comments that are actually informative you have to stick with certain channels. It's a shame because you're right that Mike can be balanced, but the negativity from the anti-SC group just kind of squashes any sort of engagement from people who actually do like the project.
Lol this is them telling you all that the performance wont be getting better like they always said it will and also this is them now saying there is OTHER issues now that NOBODY ever thought of that is a blocker. Also strange they aren't simply naming what it is. Just this OTHER thing
This happens ALL the time EVERY time in R&D -- but as PirateKing pointed out, they do not ever let the public know because they respond the way you have.
This is probably one of the most important ISC ever. Server meshing is great and incredibly important tech they have built and needed to build, but we still have the laggy unresponsive game running meshed. Now they are ripping out and rebuilding chunks of the network stack, which probably still has legacy code built for CryEngine (when people were running quad cores, with 64 player on a 1km map sort of levels in mind). This can only be a good thing, and maybe I've been on the copium tanks too much, but this should now be where game actually starts to feel responsive, more like the offline modes do. Still it's a daunting task. I know as a programmer that multithreading stuff gets very complicated on this scale, with all sorts of terrible things that can happen, like full lockups when stuff gets out of sync on different threads, and it's pretty painful to debug too. I'll be really interested to see, more than the Pyro system even, how the game performs in 4.0 when they finally get it out with some of these improvements.
You're aboslutley spot-on. THe thing is, this episode is a bit old in terms of where they are, since the latest 4.0 evo builds are the smoothest the game has ever run, and has the least amount of desync (other than the ship-controlled AI enemies). But otherwise, 4.0 with 380 players with two servers meshed to a single shard runs exceedingly well. It's almost on par to running a game offline.
The problem I'm seeing is is that any gains they might find from actually breaking the game services out into their owns servers is automatically negated by going insane with player counts. That, and keeping the object culling so weak, we're not going to see any true, tangible performance increase until they get this through their heads. They need to get the actual DGS connections working 100% first(Pyro and Stanton remaining connected, properly transmitting pertinent data back and forth without issue) and each DGS being totally stable on their own. Having 500 people per server solves nothing if it's still the same garbage tick rate we've had for 10 years.
Not necessarily. Its like building a hyperconverged resource layer of game systems. If its all on one physical compute resource you have things competing for CPU ticks. When they have different services running on multiple servers (I'm talking the compute resource- the OS that the game servers are running on) that offloads the CPU ready wait times so you don't get the backup (that onramp they're discussing) That is where scaling really can happen with less limitations. Its actually less effective with less users because you're effectively adding another middleware administration step.
I guarantee you they know what they are doing 100% more than you do. I think you need to sit down a bit and stop pretending like you understand more than them
Yup. For years SM has been explicitly stated to be the solution to almost every server-side performance issue in SC. We are not seeing anything like that at all. Gotta walk before you run, but this looks more like still trying to crawl.
@@DeadLuckArchives It's maybe a suboptimal use of available resources, but it's not "adding another middleware administration step" at all. Not sure where you're getting that idea from. That doesn't make sense.
I mean, we all knew that 4.0 was gonna be a rocky release with the introduction of the SM tech; this whole thing is just giving the context for why that's going to be. It's fine, didn't need so many clips from streamers, but if they were just trying to make dev talk easier to digest, then I guess it's ok.
This ISC was a huge jump in honesty. Probably as much as getting server meshing to a point of working technically. They showed the bad things and the euphoria of how its great if it works. And now the work on getting the current house of cards and ductape rebuilt into a real house with a strong foundation.
That’s a lot of abbreviations to say it’s not working yet. Guess they did only start working on the whole thing when they did that 1st server meshing ISC
They had to build all of the systems to get it to the first tech preview test -- server meshing is not just some single entity, it is composed of several dozen hybrid microservices, half a dozen middleware suites, and several top-level parallelisation systems to make it work. Collectively they call it server meshing, but it's actually a collection of different systems working in tandem. They have explained this before, but most people who would rather be negative have chosen to ignore this.
I can see a potential issue. In WoW they had a problem with rogues using stealth. If you ping the player computer and ask "can you see this", it opens up an opportunity for people to have a program watching for those pings and telling you the data. Basically if they are doing this its a good chance that any "stealth" mechanic cant do anything. It also allows mods that warn you if somone is near and allows xray to be even easier.
@@lordfraybin they are already in SC, they were exposed like 2 years ago and nothing was done about it, hackers normally represent around 30% of any game population, and losing 30% of your clients isn't profitable
@@lordfraybin No they will not, because it's all server authority, and they would have to reverse engineer systems to monitor the servers, but from beyond that there is nothing they could do, since any sort of injections would be pinged instantly, since, once again, it's all server authoritative.
Well - came in back in 2018, and at least it appears something is moving forward. Although I still fall through the floor exiting my room, fall through elevators, and die trying to exit a shuttle when it stops. Guess time will tell.....
@@keithent2447ive had zero problems with him since informing him of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton investigation into CIG for TOS violations. Which they are. Same thing Sony was investigated and punished for as well.
Jeez, taking the MQ out and rewriting the entire thing multiple times sounds like an absolute nightmare. That being said I really enjoyed this episode and the explanation of the higher end background work. Really hoping for some optimization which is second to gameplay imo as that has a huge impact on literally anyone who gives Star Citizen a try.
You gotta love when the devs hint at how getting the player count up will cause them to go back through all the game systems they made already and redo them. Basically every system in the game was created with 50 people in stanton in mind. But now that it could be thousands in say 5 planetary systems that are all linked... all the prior work is imbalanced or just not fun with all the new players around. Obviously this has to happen but this is the same issue Mike here has been talking about for years. The gameplay systems were never planned out with the future in mind, it was all based on the art. Now everything is changing and everything will need to be planned and reworked.
You‘re right ofc, but they needed to have a game to sell ships server meshing etc wasn’t built yet so they had to release something. It’s all just a problem of the monetization system.
@@minecraftprovie5076 yeah I mean honestly I'd rather they have done what Ashes of Creation is doing. Sure you can't get into the alpha tests for 45 bucks like you could with SC. But in the end I think it will work out better for the game/balance.
I have a feeling CIG showing the lag to provide optics to the players in a spirit of transparency to maybe gain sympathy from players in order to still gain continued monetary support?
@@coldshock5181 Then why still follow the project if everything they do is just a monetary scheme for whales? Why not invest your time in a project you are not so dour on?
i think the footage WAS contextual, you can see an evolution of gameplay per video. look at the guy talking about "waiting for shaders" then later on after an update from devs, the next one is a french guy and its very smooth.
This ISC really didn't need the streamer footage to bulk it out. It added absolutely nothing to the narrative - it wasn't even like it was punctuating the point of the dev talk at the time. Other than that I though it was a good episode !
It did, because it highlighted what worked and what didn't and why -- they even showed WHY there were low frames in some sections even when nothing was happening, because of the threading issues they discussed.
I dont get it. I mean Im not claiming to know how CGI does anything but Ive worked in games and its not something you just find out. There is a method to the whole thing and you can (to a certain degree) know what could work and why. I feel like they have been telling us that server meshing is what we need to improve performance but now we also need something else that could potentially work and then once this is implemented there will be something else that they'll "discover" and bla bla bla. You should know if your code and network infrastructure could potentially handle all that data, clients, updates, reads, writes, etc. You wont get 10x or 20x the performance under a misterious piece of legacy code or whatever, unless there was something really wrong with it and it's scalability, and thats something you would know to a certain degree, not something that you find out. Then again... What do I know...
You have never worked on an MMO, so you're way outside of your depth here. You can lie and say you have, but for people who have actually done network coding, it's obvious. What you've completely glossed over here and it's a pretty big gloss -- is that there is literally no game in existence made at this scale, offline, online, or otherwise. They CANNOT know what scales because there is nothing to compare it to. It's built out of a now bespoke Star Engine platform, running bespoke network middleware suites, containing bespoke hybrid microservices and supplementary sub-systems for their library of networking architecture. You only discover what works and what doesn't through R&D, and that is precisely what CIG is doing -- R&D. T he only difference (and downside) is that they are wrongly (in my opinion) sharing it with the public who have no clue how to interpret what CIG is explaining to them, and so the public wrongly jump to conclusions based on things they do not understand, and they assume that their arm-chair development experience is the right way, even while they have no clue what they're talking about.
I'm curious why you think CIG will never utter your name again because you've always been critical of the management of the project. And it also seems like CIG staff hang out in your chat more than most other creators (that I've seen at least).
I think it might just not be a good look. CIG devs understand the criticism, but the avarage new guy checking out an SC video wont want to see a youtuber go ''this game is not even a game and it fucking sucks and its a scam'', it took me like a year to start understanding when he was being hyperbolic
@@aguspuig6615 I'm not sure he's ever actually called it a scam, but there's certainly been some real scathing criticism, mostly deservedly so. It's his brand and that hasn't changed in the years I've watched his stuff. I just think it's interesting cuz he's still a part of evo so it's not really like he's been black balled or anything.
@Mindbulletz not yet, I don't think he's referring to any one thing he did rather he just did not get an invite to this Evo test and is assuming that CIG brass have blacklisted him. The devs who are in his chat are largely team leads and hands on members of the cig dev team, not people who make PR decisions or senior leadership.
@@DasBullWy A lot of it is without context or education, though, and THAT is a serious problem. Like Someordinarygamer or Moistcritical or other TH-camrs who just look at he project and go "It's mismanaged and management is terrible, and it should be out by now!" alll while doing approximately zero research into WHY it has taken so long. The problem is that Mike follows the project and will still go on the exact same rants as these people who have no clue what they're saying, and then agree with them, and feed the fuel of hatred from onlookers and people who want to see the project fail, when in reality he should be EDUCATING people about the WHYs even while having his own misgivings and criticisms. Strangely, LukeStephens does a much better job of balancing the criticism with the WHYs -- he's quick to point out that what CIG is doing is unprecedented and while he doesn't agree with the monetary setup, he completely understands that this project would not exist otherwise. He also outlines that what they're doing is VERY difficult, and while he is also critical of their timelines, still acknowledges that it's not like they have anything else to compare it to in terms of scale and procedure. So it's a more balanced outlook to explain misgivings while also acknowledging difficulty and scale. It's something that Mike does not frequently do, and so people who want to rage on the project just see the rage and it fuels more hatred than understanding.
If there are more player in proximity, they can send what they see over only 1 player to server by a group in proximity not each player individually, this can bring big optimalisition mainly in big crew ships
@1aatlas no one complained about asymmetry. A size 3 is a joke. They might as well have not put a gun on it at all. I like everything about it except the ridiculous gun
@saltemike Reacts I have some questions with "if´s." If 4.0 goes live before 2025 without the stuff, like engeenering. Do you think RSI delayed "that stuff" because of onion problems they talked about in the video? Do you think a 4.0 release with minimum 500 players before 2025 including some updates and hotfix, but without the new stuff that they delayed, can give us players a fun and stable built? As a side thought on SQ42 trailer. What do you think the menu button "multi-crew pilot" means? NPC´s or COOP?
@@moontreecollective6718 Server meshing will NEVER allow for a great FPS combat experience? Combat is a HUGE focus of the game... so if that fails, if combat remains janky?
@@moontreecollective6718 Right after last year's citizen con, I predicted that they will never break 2k concurrent players in a shard, and more likely would settle around 1.5k. The primary reason is network congestion. Regardless of how many worker servers there are, because all client sockets go through the "hybrid" service first, the choke will be the network width between that and the internet. Any large grouping of players in any location will mean congestion for the entire shard. I design such systems for a living and have seen many games attempt to solve this problem in different ways. With the model they chose, the best I've seen is just under 2k players.
@@moontreecollective6718it’s an easy prediction to infer: They’re messaging had too much data; when you have too much data being sent, it will affect performance and real-time ability. Even with, using their analogy, of “opening up the highways,” the fail to mention their only narrowing the lanes. Using the same analogy, even though those lanes are open, traffic is backed up for miles and some cars still move slower than others, creating the same bottlenecks just at a different scale.
They figured some shit, they are aiming for X and while doing that they are discovering NEW shit, that they need to work on, about stuff they have already worked on, is what I got from all that.
The whole PR problem would disapear if they capped PU servers at 50 players and got rid of some types of persistency. We would have almost the same game but running well, and seeing EVO builds not quite running well yet wouldnt be a problem at all
So make it less fun by reducing player interactions and removing part of the emergent gameplay loops that people use to salvage ships and components, and somehow this would help? Let's see. did they have higher player counts and more funding pre-2023 or post-2023?
i really want to see the reaction of he who must not be named and definitely doesnt think hes a gift to the world (at least seeing off his name), and what he thinks of it. probably hes just gonna cut every streamer bit out and insult them as shills and try to make all of that seem the only thing in the isc
I kinda dont like them name dropping certain channels over others. Would be fine if they were just going to thank the people they used clips from. Dont think there was a morphologist one though
Morph has been crapping on the game almost this entire year, and has repeatedly said he didn't think they would get server meshing working this year. He's been extremely negative about the server meshing tests as well, which makes no sense because you would think that he would be happy 4.0 is running as smooth as it is in Evocati.
Only so many ways you can do it. Speed of Data Propagation multiplied by clients. CIG is reinventing Networking. I've lost some more faith that they know what they are doing other than costing money and promising the impossible. The Goal has always been to increase the number of clients in a single battle. The problem is getting playable server updates given the larger number of players they want in 1 space battle. You can dumb down the network code so that each update has less overhead, or you can slow down the game given the kind of combat that is happening. Eve is a great example of this. Most shooters now days require 64+ ticks per second like Counter Strike. In Eve, your client simply tells the server "Activate my weapons given my known dps" after you have locked target, No sending coordinates because Eve uses lock and fire. Just like wow and other MMO's. This game is more like counter strike. Where you send the server your clients position and angles your shots are fired at. That is a lot more network data. That is why eve and wow and other MMO's have you target then activate weapons / spells / attacks. This game has more in common with counter strike than eve or wow.
Very much, appreciate the sentiment sharing clips SC streamer experience. But this all seems very low effort, Jared We need more data to present progress what are the real results results?
You can watch actual livestreams of 4.0 right now -- it's running better than any of the live patches this year and has fewer errors than 3.23 or 3.24.
3:20 They keep rewriting stuff. I get that if it's more economical to rewrite it from scratch, do that - it just doesn't inspire confidence that _so much_ has to be rewritten _all the time_
I like the community footage, but I think a name in the corner would be nice. Not too worried about the jumpy narrative as this was a first. Edit: Name is bottom center, just missed it.
Something is telling me meshing isn’t doing what they thought it would. Sounded like a bunch of “we want to” meaning it isn’t coming or it’ll be way far out. Game is such a joke. “Rework the rework of the rework of the rework…”
Why not implement ways the player base can help “clean up the servers,” by adding such things as garbage and disposal that actually take the item off the server when you place your empty bottle in it. Places for your med gown to dispose of. Other random things. 🤷🏻♂️
Last time i chcked they were generating either stable or record breaking profits every year, this year is slated to be about the same as the last money wise
@@aguspuig6615 Oh. that must be why they had all those layoff's, and telling people they needed to relocate to the UK if they wanted their jobs, knowing people would leave. All the contraction screams insane profitability, or meeting with Microsoft to beg them to help with Squad 42, yeah sounds like they got money coming out their ears.
They have no idea what to fix, how and until when. Management got never clear goals and targets, their incentivization is wrong or not existing. Easy way out: Focus on the engine, safe money to safe liquidity, because revenue will further drop, stop unnecessary projects, …
Good video. I've backed the game for only 3 years. I have a Zeus, and an MSR, (which I love, and there should be an alternate entrance in the unused space in the scanning room) and I haven't done anything more serious than fly to a star station and buy Dust Up armor and run around Area 18. I'm 60 years old, a committed bachelor, and just watching the development of the game for the last 3 years has been a marvelous experience. I am a perfectionist, and I can see the "perfectionist" in this game. I will begin seriously playing at 1.0. Hope it's soon!
I'm a backend engineer myself, and what they were able to deliver do far seems like magic to me, you cannot fathom the sheer engineering feats needed to have a system like this run in real time. Saying that they did not bother until Evo is plain wrong, the truth is they were not even aware of the issues that arise from real world data, and pushing to evo is one of the best ways they have to collect that data and fix what's broken and what can potentially break
@@Mullins23 I do understand how it works, but the framework you need to keep a real time system meshed while processing and responding to user input and state, and at the same time knowing which users need to receive that state and which do not, while maintaining track of millions of entities, is absolutely bonkers. In theory, you can build a very similar meshing system with just RabbitMQ, but you can only scale vertically so much, and horizontal scaling is the real challenge here.
19:00 i contract in enterprise IT and its the one thing that i love doing.
If I get a contract that involves a full deep dive rebuild or replacement it’s some of the most rewarding work I can get. I get his enthusiasm. I just hope there’s enough support and resources internally to do it within the next year.
They are running out of time and community good will now.
Nah, community good will is fine -- just some loud people who either need to understand how software engineering works or move on to other low-class AAA outings like Starfield or Outlaws if they want a quick-fix that isn't good.
Don't need to know how software engineering works when it's clear that bad management and scope creep has been burning away good will for years. They're on borrowed time.
@@4tonmike ...Said by someone who has never written a line of code in their life.
I expected this episode to at least say "We did it" but nope. All they said is we're still working on it and will probably have to rework it again in the future.
10 more years of development is what I'm betting on.
then i'll wait a little longer :-)
At this point i'm happy when they don't flat out lie and mislead people into expecting things to come sooner than they will.
>I expected this episode to at least say "We did it" but nope.
This is from today: "We have a new 4.0 build for release to Evocati later today on EPTU with a 2:2:380 mesh config (2 Star systems with 2 Servers each with 380 total players in the shard). This is a potential Wave 1 candidate if build proves worthy after a few hours with Evos!"
@@spacewombat4569It doesn't matter when they have used this to hype up everyone for years lol
I just stopped waiting and supporting this project financially. I have dropped something around 400$ on this project and not giving them a dime more. Just cutting my losses, if it will happen - it will hapen, if not then I guess I got scammed. I don't expect anything from them anymore. I'm not hyped, I'm not angry I just don't care. I'll watch a video on SC every now and then but that's about it.
Honestly, I think the non-cynical reason they've allowed EVO to be streamed is because they want to keep player counts up to stress the mesh and determine if the fixes they're putting out are actually working. EVO and PTU player-counts tend to drop over time, as people get bored of the new elements... and streamers especially don't want to be in EVO if they can't show it on stream. So by allowing people to stream it, their view counts go up because its something new, and CIG gets a consistent stress test going to quickly iterate on their optimizations.
money fuels everything imo, feels more like let people stream it to keep up hype and get people excited just before the biggest ship sale of the year
i guess you did say "non cynical reason" 😅
Thats why theyre also going PTU wave one very soon
@@JohnSmith-ue3pt i mean both reasons make sense, neither is morally bad. Both are probably the case
Keep the hype (what's left of it) alive among the sunset of people that spend the most money.
Honestly, +respect for them showing the lag.
What else could they show?
@@CitizenScott wHaT ElSe CoUlD ThEy sHoW
16x the meshing
32 times the detail
64 times the delay
Press F for doubt
Love seeing the clips of people playing it, good and bad. Nice to see optimization is a priority now.
Optimization is not a priority. The current version of meshing does not actually work, so what they're calling "optimization" is actually making it playable.
@@CitizenScott both are true, the optimisations are necessary for server meshing to work properly.
Yes this comment!
@@1aatlas Yes to this !
Im glad to know that 4.0 will be as broken and non fuctionnal as a normal CIg patches, i was scared to be jumping in a game wih good performance with stuff actually working... Thats super cool that they dont change the game to much so we can still feel at home in 4.0! SC Reach for the star but crash befaure launching the rocket!
That's not true at all. They launch the rocket, then crash immediately.
The game will never work. They will string us along until they lose enough players they can’t afford to stay open
4.0 Evocati with 380 players works better than any previous build of the game, and runs smoother than the current live patch and other PTU patches. Not sure where people are getting all of this negativity from.
@@Billy-bc8pk Probably from seeing smaller companies with smaller budgets putting out functional, finished products in 1/10th the time, with ongoing live service and ongoing QoL upgrades and content expansions post launch.
@@4tonmike Yes, smaller games with smaller scopes, fewer features, and smaller budgets have that advantage. Next you'll tell me how amazed you were to find out that the Sonic trilogy of games were each made within one year. - gasp -
Thanks Mike! Yes, it currently is a 2 servers per system and 380 players (2:2:380) shard
How cool that several of our streamer community were mentioned at the end!
CIG may not be giving you love Mike, but we love you. Keep up the great work. We need a Devils Advocate.
The sole reason he is critical about this video and pretending to not udenrstand it is that he is upset they did not use his content. Maybe he should try making some instead of commenting on others for a living!
@@PirateKing-tb9ev This. Also, when people make a living crapping on the project more often than not, don't be surprised they are not all that keen on said individual
Pretty gay
The theme of citicen con is and always was: "just 2 more years"
Yet progress is visible maybe not at the same timeline but still. Progress
@@PirateKing-tb9evthe only progress is them making ships. The game is still the broken mess like it was a decade ago. Chris just keeps waking up and saying one more thing in a year that’s 365 new things then one day he’ll say nvm. That’s why 4.0/1.0 got gutted. Stop focusing on base building, engineering, all of these need to be on the shelf and focus on finishing the game.
@@Astelch
1, its not been a decade. We barely had hangars at the start of 2018
2. Its still very much Alpha. SDLC has Alpha as content and tech build up. Beta as optimisation. Then live. as in actual 1.0 We are not there yet. Actual development started 2016. Prior to that was concept and building a team and business.
3. CIG did not have a large team and company at the ready to do this. They had to go from 1person to what we have today. With no capital no seeding apart from what we OG backers gave them. PS today you are backing it with ships. Not buying the game. The game is $40. Stick with that if you want to play and not back it.
4. Yes scope creep and missed deadlines has been a thing. Part of any project.
5. Go watch Grolos Video on just the proposed cost of hosting this game. Then come back to me about cost of ships and the need for them. We are talking thousands per hour to host this game. This does not include the development.
To put this into perspective. Grolo lays the costs, compllexities of hosting, the complexities, and cost of Datacentres out so well. I would rather build a datacentre than a game like SC. Those are highly complex projects built from nothing to operation in 2 years. I pick that all day over doing something on the scale of SC without starting capital and a Team.
With all their faults and missed deadlines I take my hat of with what they have achieved. Have they been dicks yes. Have they over promised yes. Are they deliverying so far yes.
And before you ask yes I do have indepth experience in building and operating DCs. I do udnerstand the basic fundamentals of SDLC and what it takes to make projects at the scale of SC work.
Benoit inspires confidence.
God the people in twitch chat are so annoying
Step by step, these guys are building the frame while driving the ship. Not easy but hope they get it.
It's like building a bridge, there's no bridge but they open it for cars to cross it, using the cranes and stuff to move the cars along the way while building the bridge at the same time
The same crane that the builders also need
It's building the house at the same time as the foundation, having to keep demolishing and rebuilding every part of the house as you dig the foundation underneath
@@vorpalrobot yep because players will cry if we dont get updates, so they have to juggle a live service game with developing a game at the same time
@@aguspuig6615 You say that as if CIG didn't literally create this entire situation themselves.
@@CitizenScottWell said
Have I lost my mind or are we back in 2016, again?
The other thing about community footage is that it falls in line with their stance on PR they set at citizen con with the game demo is theyre just saying here is how its working outside of our polished internal environment.
So they basically made it worse then what we currently have but with more people?
It sounds like they've basically switched from TCP to UDP (logically, not literally) for server to client communications, and switched to larger packets per transmit rather than lots of smaller transmits because the wait time was building up too much.
Both of these aren't necessarily improvements, they're just tradeoffs that they believe will benefit the environment they've built. The server to client method means you could still lose states of things (think arguing with your org mates about whether your landing gear is down or not) if you have a bad connection. Even worse depending on how much they're bundling in each packet thats transmitted. If the servers were so bad packets weren't getting out in the first place then it doesn't matter though.
Other than that it does sound like they want to focus quite a bit on cleaning up the servers which will help reduce that data load.
Honestly with this, let the devs dev. These details arent something backers need to worry about. You can always apply at CIG if you know better
@@TKanal3 I'm a It systems engineer focused in virtualized infrastructure. If I wanted a job related to CIG I'd apply to Amazon to work on their AWS hosting.
Yes I'm posturing about what they're doing based on the information we have, but how is that any different than posturing about how X or Y new system will work when its in game "soon"?
you cant 'switch' TCP to UDP for all client to server and server to client communications, you can only do it for read only operations, it's a broadcast protocol every live video stream does it so that the content distribution network isn't serving up the same repo repository for every single client burning out the CPU, so it's a combination of both, when they're referencing dirty variables they mean the excess metadata related to the entities that is being streamed across the network to give game state updates with the tick rate, likewise all of those millions of entities have their own physics states and can be on any number of shard and server combinations, easy to track and develop for it most certainly is not, previously they were single core bound on the server side too which is why they are talking about hyperthreading the workload (Parallelism) so that when the Client Update requests come in if they bottle neck they can start sending them to new cores and dynamically ramp up the cores in the cloud to cope with the load.
@@DeadLuckArchives because thats what players experience. Even if it's not meant as fear-mongering, most people reading your comment will not understand what you mean and will simply get the impression that this or that might not be possible or might be possible. I think this is inappropriate for backers to really worry about until CIG through actions prove that they are incapable of achieving what they promised. Backers, in my opinion, should worry more about things like game design and what they would enjoy in the game, less so about the background technology.
That is not it, this does not have to do with the transport layer. What they are talking about here is software queuing systems / message brokers.
a million players here we come, please please please
I have always respected your takes on this project, I think they are very balanced for the most part. It just sucks that your community has become the sanctuary of the refundians at this point. That twitch chat is a cesspool.
Chat salty with extra salt.
Sadly true. The problem is that the troll brigades have wholesale taken over certain channels, this one being one of the prime ones, as well as Morphologis in recent times. It's just chock full of anti-SC comments. If you're looking for news or information and comments that are actually informative you have to stick with certain channels. It's a shame because you're right that Mike can be balanced, but the negativity from the anti-SC group just kind of squashes any sort of engagement from people who actually do like the project.
Lol this is them telling you all that the performance wont be getting better like they always said it will and also this is them now saying there is OTHER issues now that NOBODY ever thought of that is a blocker. Also strange they aren't simply naming what it is. Just this OTHER thing
Normal part of SDLC which you as a player is not normaly prevy too. All games suffer this!
This happens ALL the time EVERY time in R&D -- but as PirateKing pointed out, they do not ever let the public know because they respond the way you have.
It's just never gonna work. They are doing it to save server costs and it will never pay for itself even if figured out.
This is probably one of the most important ISC ever. Server meshing is great and incredibly important tech they have built and needed to build, but we still have the laggy unresponsive game running meshed. Now they are ripping out and rebuilding chunks of the network stack, which probably still has legacy code built for CryEngine (when people were running quad cores, with 64 player on a 1km map sort of levels in mind). This can only be a good thing, and maybe I've been on the copium tanks too much, but this should now be where game actually starts to feel responsive, more like the offline modes do.
Still it's a daunting task. I know as a programmer that multithreading stuff gets very complicated on this scale, with all sorts of terrible things that can happen, like full lockups when stuff gets out of sync on different threads, and it's pretty painful to debug too. I'll be really interested to see, more than the Pyro system even, how the game performs in 4.0 when they finally get it out with some of these improvements.
You've overdosed on the copium big time.
Yup it's just excuse after excuse after excuse from CIG they will never put out an optimized and stable product
@@john6203 probably. I should know better after all these years. I'm not wrong about the difficulty of what they are doing though.
You're aboslutley spot-on. THe thing is, this episode is a bit old in terms of where they are, since the latest 4.0 evo builds are the smoothest the game has ever run, and has the least amount of desync (other than the ship-controlled AI enemies). But otherwise, 4.0 with 380 players with two servers meshed to a single shard runs exceedingly well. It's almost on par to running a game offline.
Chat extra salty today, goddamn. Understandable given the current climate though
The problem I'm seeing is is that any gains they might find from actually breaking the game services out into their owns servers is automatically negated by going insane with player counts. That, and keeping the object culling so weak, we're not going to see any true, tangible performance increase until they get this through their heads. They need to get the actual DGS connections working 100% first(Pyro and Stanton remaining connected, properly transmitting pertinent data back and forth without issue) and each DGS being totally stable on their own. Having 500 people per server solves nothing if it's still the same garbage tick rate we've had for 10 years.
Not necessarily. Its like building a hyperconverged resource layer of game systems. If its all on one physical compute resource you have things competing for CPU ticks. When they have different services running on multiple servers (I'm talking the compute resource- the OS that the game servers are running on) that offloads the CPU ready wait times so you don't get the backup (that onramp they're discussing)
That is where scaling really can happen with less limitations. Its actually less effective with less users because you're effectively adding another middleware administration step.
I guarantee you they know what they are doing 100% more than you do. I think you need to sit down a bit and stop pretending like you understand more than them
Yup. For years SM has been explicitly stated to be the solution to almost every server-side performance issue in SC. We are not seeing anything like that at all. Gotta walk before you run, but this looks more like still trying to crawl.
@@DeadLuckArchives It's maybe a suboptimal use of available resources, but it's not "adding another middleware administration step" at all. Not sure where you're getting that idea from. That doesn't make sense.
I mean, we all knew that 4.0 was gonna be a rocky release with the introduction of the SM tech; this whole thing is just giving the context for why that's going to be. It's fine, didn't need so many clips from streamers, but if they were just trying to make dev talk easier to digest, then I guess it's ok.
This ISC was a huge jump in honesty. Probably as much as getting server meshing to a point of working technically.
They showed the bad things and the euphoria of how its great if it works. And now the work on getting the current house of cards and ductape rebuilt into a real house with a strong foundation.
Just hope to see with 4.0 having 500 on one Shard that I think will be the test to see if Server Meshing works or not.
That’s a lot of abbreviations to say it’s not working yet. Guess they did only start working on the whole thing when they did that 1st server meshing ISC
They had to build all of the systems to get it to the first tech preview test -- server meshing is not just some single entity, it is composed of several dozen hybrid microservices, half a dozen middleware suites, and several top-level parallelisation systems to make it work. Collectively they call it server meshing, but it's actually a collection of different systems working in tandem. They have explained this before, but most people who would rather be negative have chosen to ignore this.
I can see a potential issue. In WoW they had a problem with rogues using stealth. If you ping the player computer and ask "can you see this", it opens up an opportunity for people to have a program watching for those pings and telling you the data. Basically if they are doing this its a good chance that any "stealth" mechanic cant do anything. It also allows mods that warn you if somone is near and allows xray to be even easier.
Hackers will have a field day with this game, if that's what you're saying.
@@lordfraybin they are already in SC, they were exposed like 2 years ago and nothing was done about it, hackers normally represent around 30% of any game population, and losing 30% of your clients isn't profitable
@@lordfraybin No they will not, because it's all server authority, and they would have to reverse engineer systems to monitor the servers, but from beyond that there is nothing they could do, since any sort of injections would be pinged instantly, since, once again, it's all server authoritative.
Well - came in back in 2018, and at least it appears something is moving forward. Although I still fall through the floor exiting my room, fall through elevators, and die trying to exit a shuttle when it stops. Guess time will tell.....
these guys look like they're being held at gun point
They are
Don't let nightrider-cig hear or see you use that type of turn of phrase he'll ban you from the internet.
500 million + someone better be.
@@keithent2447ive had zero problems with him since informing him of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton investigation into CIG for TOS violations. Which they are.
Same thing Sony was investigated and punished for as well.
@@r.daneel.90 Fake news.
So ISC was just them trying to hype up their Streamers yeah ISC still just marketing.
These guys are the true heroes amongst the devs, filling all the holes in the foundation with concrete.
Jeez, taking the MQ out and rewriting the entire thing multiple times sounds like an absolute nightmare. That being said I really enjoyed this episode and the explanation of the higher end background work. Really hoping for some optimization which is second to gameplay imo as that has a huge impact on literally anyone who gives Star Citizen a try.
Your one of the only streamers I still follow along with A1 because i can count on your unbiased content. Keep up the good work.
You gotta love when the devs hint at how getting the player count up will cause them to go back through all the game systems they made already and redo them. Basically every system in the game was created with 50 people in stanton in mind. But now that it could be thousands in say 5 planetary systems that are all linked... all the prior work is imbalanced or just not fun with all the new players around.
Obviously this has to happen but this is the same issue Mike here has been talking about for years. The gameplay systems were never planned out with the future in mind, it was all based on the art. Now everything is changing and everything will need to be planned and reworked.
You‘re right ofc, but they needed to have a game to sell ships server meshing etc wasn’t built yet so they had to release something. It’s all just a problem of the monetization system.
@@minecraftprovie5076 yeah I mean honestly I'd rather they have done what Ashes of Creation is doing. Sure you can't get into the alpha tests for 45 bucks like you could with SC. But in the end I think it will work out better for the game/balance.
I have a feeling CIG showing the lag to provide optics to the players in a spirit of transparency to maybe gain sympathy from players in order to still gain continued monetary support?
Of course and that's all it takes to justify it to these whales lol
@@coldshock5181 Then why still follow the project if everything they do is just a monetary scheme for whales? Why not invest your time in a project you are not so dour on?
i think the footage WAS contextual, you can see an evolution of gameplay per video. look at the guy talking about "waiting for shaders" then later on after an update from devs, the next one is a french guy and its very smooth.
This ISC really didn't need the streamer footage to bulk it out. It added absolutely nothing to the narrative - it wasn't even like it was punctuating the point of the dev talk at the time. Other than that I though it was a good episode !
It did, because it highlighted what worked and what didn't and why -- they even showed WHY there were low frames in some sections even when nothing was happening, because of the threading issues they discussed.
Nice to see even lease in the inside star citizen
The more time that passes and the more that they share, the farther away the game seems. It's actually impressive.
I love how all these videos amount to, hey remember all that stuff we said works, well it doesn't and here's a bunch of bullshit excuses.
land a rocket on the moon, go...
I'd say "well it doesn't and here's a bunch of legit reasons why," but otherwise yeah basically.
I dont get it. I mean Im not claiming to know how CGI does anything but Ive worked in games and its not something you just find out.
There is a method to the whole thing and you can (to a certain degree) know what could work and why. I feel like they have been telling us that server meshing is what we need to improve performance but now we also need something else that could potentially work and then once this is implemented there will be something else that they'll "discover" and bla bla bla.
You should know if your code and network infrastructure could potentially handle all that data, clients, updates, reads, writes, etc. You wont get 10x or 20x the performance under a misterious piece of legacy code or whatever, unless there was something really wrong with it and it's scalability, and thats something you would know to a certain degree, not something that you find out.
Then again... What do I know...
You have never worked on an MMO, so you're way outside of your depth here. You can lie and say you have, but for people who have actually done network coding, it's obvious. What you've completely glossed over here and it's a pretty big gloss -- is that there is literally no game in existence made at this scale, offline, online, or otherwise. They CANNOT know what scales because there is nothing to compare it to. It's built out of a now bespoke Star Engine platform, running bespoke network middleware suites, containing bespoke hybrid microservices and supplementary sub-systems for their library of networking architecture. You only discover what works and what doesn't through R&D, and that is precisely what CIG is doing -- R&D. T
he only difference (and downside) is that they are wrongly (in my opinion) sharing it with the public who have no clue how to interpret what CIG is explaining to them, and so the public wrongly jump to conclusions based on things they do not understand, and they assume that their arm-chair development experience is the right way, even while they have no clue what they're talking about.
I'm curious why you think CIG will never utter your name again because you've always been critical of the management of the project. And it also seems like CIG staff hang out in your chat more than most other creators (that I've seen at least).
I think it might just not be a good look. CIG devs understand the criticism, but the avarage new guy checking out an SC video wont want to see a youtuber go ''this game is not even a game and it fucking sucks and its a scam'', it took me like a year to start understanding when he was being hyperbolic
I was scrolling the comments and nobody seems to have answered definitively why he is saying that. Did Mike ever say why?
@@aguspuig6615 I'm not sure he's ever actually called it a scam, but there's certainly been some real scathing criticism, mostly deservedly so. It's his brand and that hasn't changed in the years I've watched his stuff. I just think it's interesting cuz he's still a part of evo so it's not really like he's been black balled or anything.
@Mindbulletz not yet, I don't think he's referring to any one thing he did rather he just did not get an invite to this Evo test and is assuming that CIG brass have blacklisted him. The devs who are in his chat are largely team leads and hands on members of the cig dev team, not people who make PR decisions or senior leadership.
@@DasBullWy A lot of it is without context or education, though, and THAT is a serious problem. Like Someordinarygamer or Moistcritical or other TH-camrs who just look at he project and go "It's mismanaged and management is terrible, and it should be out by now!" alll while doing approximately zero research into WHY it has taken so long. The problem is that Mike follows the project and will still go on the exact same rants as these people who have no clue what they're saying, and then agree with them, and feed the fuel of hatred from onlookers and people who want to see the project fail, when in reality he should be EDUCATING people about the WHYs even while having his own misgivings and criticisms.
Strangely, LukeStephens does a much better job of balancing the criticism with the WHYs -- he's quick to point out that what CIG is doing is unprecedented and while he doesn't agree with the monetary setup, he completely understands that this project would not exist otherwise. He also outlines that what they're doing is VERY difficult, and while he is also critical of their timelines, still acknowledges that it's not like they have anything else to compare it to in terms of scale and procedure. So it's a more balanced outlook to explain misgivings while also acknowledging difficulty and scale. It's something that Mike does not frequently do, and so people who want to rage on the project just see the rage and it fuels more hatred than understanding.
I want more of this. Not flashy new wallet-bait hype content, but them walking us through what a problem is and what they're doing to fix it.
What? Why did Mike say CIG will never do anything for him ever again?
I have no idea but in a few episodes lately ive seen mike basically shouting at devs in chat, even i was feeling bad for them lol.
Devs don’t like criticism. It’s a toxic positivity mentality over at CIG
If there are more player in proximity, they can send what they see over only 1 player to server by a group in proximity not each player individually, this can bring big optimalisition mainly in big crew ships
Can't wait for his opinion on the Crusader Intrepid.
Well done everyone. To celebrate let's release a new asymmetrical starter ship with a single Capital ship murdering size 3 laser. Cheers!
Are you getting kill by Polaris turrets that don't even have pips? HAHAHA
I'd like to celebrate gameplay but we won't be getting that any time soon
@MontySaurusRex_ whatever do you mean? We almost have an occasionally working ride through a jump gate. Now that's gameplay!
I like the ship, asymmetry is fine, looks kind of retro.... and besides the MSR is asymmetrical too and that thing looks good.
@1aatlas no one complained about asymmetry. A size 3 is a joke. They might as well have not put a gun on it at all. I like everything about it except the ridiculous gun
Episode Title: Let them cook
@saltemike Reacts I have some questions with "if´s."
If 4.0 goes live before 2025 without the stuff, like engeenering. Do you think RSI delayed "that stuff" because of onion problems they talked about in the video?
Do you think a 4.0 release with minimum 500 players before 2025 including some updates and hotfix, but without the new stuff that they delayed, can give us players a fun and stable built?
As a side thought on SQ42 trailer. What do you think the menu button "multi-crew pilot" means? NPC´s or COOP?
Coop for sure, NPCs are already an expected part of a single player game, no real point in making it an option
@@aguspuig6615 I´d love that, a´m swedish so my grammar in english isent the best.
The spelling gets me confued. "it says pilot, and not pilots" 😅
Welp, they confirmed all of my speculation about their internal message routing structure. Feeling more (unfortunately) confident in my prediction.
What was your prediction??
@@moontreecollective6718 Server meshing will NEVER allow for a great FPS combat experience?
Combat is a HUGE focus of the game... so if that fails, if combat remains janky?
@@moontreecollective6718 Right after last year's citizen con, I predicted that they will never break 2k concurrent players in a shard, and more likely would settle around 1.5k.
The primary reason is network congestion. Regardless of how many worker servers there are, because all client sockets go through the "hybrid" service first, the choke will be the network width between that and the internet. Any large grouping of players in any location will mean congestion for the entire shard.
I design such systems for a living and have seen many games attempt to solve this problem in different ways. With the model they chose, the best I've seen is just under 2k players.
@@moontreecollective6718it’s an easy prediction to infer: They’re messaging had too much data; when you have too much data being sent, it will affect performance and real-time ability. Even with, using their analogy, of “opening up the highways,” the fail to mention their only narrowing the lanes. Using the same analogy, even though those lanes are open, traffic is backed up for miles and some cars still move slower than others, creating the same bottlenecks just at a different scale.
These are the guys we want to hear from, good ISC imo.
Who cares about Pyro if all your gameplay loops are broken or missing
Its progress, Dont look a gift horse in the mouth.
@@1aatlas except the horse isn't free at all. it costed 700 million.
They figured some shit, they are aiming for X and while doing that they are discovering NEW shit, that they need to work on, about stuff they have already worked on, is what I got from all that.
sounds like what every programmer says anytime they program to me
@@aguspuig6615yup... same thing is happening with Factorio and it's a core gameplay loop
@@aguspuig6615yea except they are not selling people things during the process and creating false expectations lol
I wonder if this results in less ship sales for this year's IAE. I think this game will never be finished
Hopefully
@@coldshock5181 So you want people to lose their jobs -- why?
This onion is the largest union in the world and they are only a few layers in.
So what did Mike do to get the bad boy stamp?
Say the things I’ve said for years?
@ but I thought that was your charm?
That hangar bug at 4:50 has nothing to do with 4.0 or meshing, that also happens on Live RIGHT NOW. Its new babbage standard ridiculousness.
Nobody said it was 4.0 or meshing.. They literally explained what the issue is.
They should cut the clip amount by half at least if they wanna keep doing this style
Optimisation is super hard. I am not surprised!
The Quest for BINDS! Get those BINDS unbound and wound correctly. Or something.
The whole PR problem would disapear if they capped PU servers at 50 players and got rid of some types of persistency. We would have almost the same game but running well, and seeing EVO builds not quite running well yet wouldnt be a problem at all
I wish they did that but that would require intelligence on the CIG end which is currently lacking
You must not have played before persistence was added because it was just as bad.
You should crownd fund your own competing game and show them how its done.
So make it less fun by reducing player interactions and removing part of the emergent gameplay loops that people use to salvage ships and components, and somehow this would help? Let's see. did they have higher player counts and more funding pre-2023 or post-2023?
Waited so long for this just to have it spoiled entirely
i really want to see the reaction of he who must not be named and definitely doesnt think hes a gift to the world (at least seeing off his name), and what he thinks of it. probably hes just gonna cut every streamer bit out and insult them as shills and try to make all of that seem the only thing in the isc
I kinda dont like them name dropping certain channels over others. Would be fine if they were just going to thank the people they used clips from. Dont think there was a morphologist one though
Morph has been crapping on the game almost this entire year, and has repeatedly said he didn't think they would get server meshing working this year. He's been extremely negative about the server meshing tests as well, which makes no sense because you would think that he would be happy 4.0 is running as smooth as it is in Evocati.
I was hoping Paul Reindell would have been on.
Only so many ways you can do it. Speed of Data Propagation multiplied by clients.
CIG is reinventing Networking. I've lost some more faith that they know what they are doing other than costing money and promising the impossible.
The Goal has always been to increase the number of clients in a single battle. The problem is getting playable server updates given the larger number of players they want in 1 space battle. You can dumb down the network code so that each update has less overhead, or you can slow down the game given the kind of combat that is happening. Eve is a great example of this.
Most shooters now days require 64+ ticks per second like Counter Strike.
In Eve, your client simply tells the server "Activate my weapons given my known dps" after you have locked target, No sending coordinates because Eve uses lock and fire. Just like wow and other MMO's. This game is more like counter strike. Where you send the server your clients position and angles your shots are fired at. That is a lot more network data. That is why eve and wow and other MMO's have you target then activate weapons / spells / attacks.
This game has more in common with counter strike than eve or wow.
Why does everyone look so dejected?
Because they know they have to keep on bullshitting the playerbase.
They know that the real issues are spaghetti code and the faulty backend foundation which can’t be fixed
Because this shit will never happen the way they want to. The game is a scam.
@@MontySaurusRex_cry about it lol
Very much, appreciate the sentiment sharing clips SC streamer experience. But this all seems very low effort, Jared We need more data to present progress what are the real results results?
You think Jared reads the comments on Salt E Mike reacts? Lmfao
You can watch actual livestreams of 4.0 right now -- it's running better than any of the live patches this year and has fewer errors than 3.23 or 3.24.
@Billy-bc8pk that's cool. There's no new gameplay or progression in Pyro. No reputation either. It's just Dark Stanton.
Do you think we're going to fill 1000 players on a game server anytime soon?
2 more years.
Evo footage isn't community footage. It's unpaid contractor footage.
All i want feom Star Citizen is a smooth gameplay experiance. I want to game for 6hrs a day for 2weeks without any major hickups.
3:20 They keep rewriting stuff. I get that if it's more economical to rewrite it from scratch, do that - it just doesn't inspire confidence that _so much_ has to be rewritten _all the time_
Server messing ? oh surely CIG can deliver that as soon as the next patch hits !
Q4 2034 patch
"So smooth...*huffs copium* so smooth"
Why would you have a clip like that
I like the community footage, but I think a name in the corner would be nice. Not too worried about the jumpy narrative as this was a first.
Edit: Name is bottom center, just missed it.
Name was bottom left I was in the way maybe?
@@saltemikereactsYou are correct, missed it on my phone. Bottom center under “community footage”
Question: How big of a WIPE will it be!!! that is the big question? credits, or credits and ships or what?
Wait... so what did Mike do? kick Chris's dog???
They should make evo public friday to sundays
You don't know enough about the development. Check out Grolo, he does explain things in layman's terms.
These guys are actual wizards here, i have so much respect for low level engineers like this
What
Ah yes one of the most terribly optimized mass funded games
And they are just going to make more points of desync
So if your frames suck in Stanton, don’t go to pyro?
1080 is Low quality? As a Kid i watched youtube With 300 Something
Something is telling me meshing isn’t doing what they thought it would. Sounded like a bunch of “we want to” meaning it isn’t coming or it’ll be way far out.
Game is such a joke. “Rework the rework of the rework of the rework…”
Why not implement ways the player base can help “clean up the servers,” by adding such things as garbage and disposal that actually take the item off the server when you place your empty bottle in it. Places for your med gown to dispose of. Other random things. 🤷🏻♂️
How about get rid of the stupid med gown all together.
Road to Pyro! Whee!
This is not an encouraging update. That, and they are running out of money and you are looking at an impossible delivery for this game.
Last time i chcked they were generating either stable or record breaking profits every year, this year is slated to be about the same as the last money wise
@@aguspuig6615 Oh. that must be why they had all those layoff's, and telling people they needed to relocate to the UK if they wanted their jobs, knowing people would leave. All the contraction screams insane profitability, or meeting with Microsoft to beg them to help with Squad 42, yeah sounds like they got money coming out their ears.
They have no idea what to fix, how and until when. Management got never clear goals and targets, their incentivization is wrong or not existing. Easy way out: Focus on the engine, safe money to safe liquidity, because revenue will further drop, stop unnecessary projects, …
Good video. I've backed the game for only 3 years. I have a Zeus, and an MSR, (which I love, and there should be an alternate entrance in the unused space in the scanning room) and I haven't done anything more serious than fly to a star station and buy Dust Up armor and run around Area 18. I'm 60 years old, a committed bachelor, and just watching the development of the game for the last 3 years has been a marvelous experience. I am a perfectionist, and I can see the "perfectionist" in this game. I will begin seriously playing at 1.0. Hope it's soon!
messing around with meshing!
30 FPS and 1,000 players in Q4 2045
Is save stanton on ptu or live server
It really doesnt sound like they've bothered working on SM much, until they desperately put it out to Evo to actually test it. THAT'S the reason!
I thought the reason they went silent was because they were making rmq tho?
I'm a backend engineer myself, and what they were able to deliver do far seems like magic to me, you cannot fathom the sheer engineering feats needed to have a system like this run in real time.
Saying that they did not bother until Evo is plain wrong, the truth is they were not even aware of the issues that arise from real world data, and pushing to evo is one of the best ways they have to collect that data and fix what's broken and what can potentially break
@@amineabdz Just because you don't understand and it seems like "magic" to you doesn't mean the rest of us don't understand. You can learn too
@@Mullins23 I do understand how it works, but the framework you need to keep a real time system meshed while processing and responding to user input and state, and at the same time knowing which users need to receive that state and which do not, while maintaining track of millions of entities, is absolutely bonkers.
In theory, you can build a very similar meshing system with just RabbitMQ, but you can only scale vertically so much, and horizontal scaling is the real challenge here.
@@amineabdz You missed the point about them being late with these tests and went straaaaaaight to the "you dont understand development" excuse xD
Right count = 112
What a pointless video. It's good to see all that backer money being put to good use...