Well, then you are either a decayer (just not playing / unable to set scores) or sandbagger (intentionally avoiding setting scores or set scores that don't go above a certain rank).
Honestly no idea how I ended up here, but I've started Osu last year (sitting at rank 1.4m and probably will continue to sit there for the foreseeable future) and enjoyed watching this for some reason. I didn't realize there was a competitive scene for Osu for all skill levels since I mostly played to just have "fun" attempting maps my friends play on even though I'm not at their level yet. I wouldn't say this video informed me on anything that would be relevant to me, but it was an enjoyable watch nonetheless!
another big reason that derankers exist is that pp does not translate to tournament skill and tournament skill does not translate to pp. there is a pretty significant playerbase of people in 4-5 dig range that prefer tournament gameplay to pp farming, and don't really care about grinding out scores for rank. Its in the nature of combo scoring that its very easy to play well and not gain rank if you just don't fc the map. Tools like elitebotix rank have had pretty varied responses for their use (especially in low rank tournaments) but ultimately I think its a step in the right direction for the goal of balance even if its not perfect at the moment. for the time being low rank tournaments dont really matter enough to get this kind of high effort organisation, and its a privilege that hosts continue to run them.
idk if it's just me but i feel like the pp farming meta in the past few years has decorrelated ranks from tournament skill even further than it used to. Like, what's the point in being a top 50 player who FCs 10* maps and then proceed to struggle on 6* tournament maps.... I think it has led to a situation where you can become a deranker "by accident" just as a side effect of your map preferences (i.e not wanting farm in top plays)
The big issue with ETX is it's algorithm and the ease of manipulating it. The current hope is o!TR, a project by Stage that tries to create a competitive ranking system like we see it in CS/Val/LoL/DotA/etc. It remains to be seen, if it'll be able to avoid the issues ETX has and I think tournament hosts will play a huge part in how useful it will be.
The reason derankers exist is because the system used by tournament organizers makes absolutely no sense, and honestly can only be explained by incompetence. Imagine you are playing a game like valorant, except when you play ranked, no matter how much you win or lose your rank doesnt change, and when you play casual games your rank goes up and down if you win/lose. This is exactly what happens in osu!. The solution to fix tournaments is incredibly simple, someone's skill in competitive osu! tournaments should be judged based on, get this, their performance IN COMPETITIVE OSU tournaments, instead of their performance in non-competitive casual play. The solution is so obvious and yet completely ignored you have to wonder if it is just being ignored on purpose.
WOW! What a wonderful and informative video. The OSU! community thanks you for putting such a great amount of effort into this, from the detailed animations to the outstanding soundbytes (pure nostalgia from Vsauce). As an ex-OSU! player, I always struggled with playing against smurfs >:( I blame my friend - Jamgyo. Forcefully making me download the game and getting me hooked. From there, it was a never-ending spiral of despair and misery from these smurfs. The game baits you in with its fun colours, fast-action-paced music, and anime backgrounds. Only to be humiliated as the screen goes black and you get a glimpse of your reflection... A sad, sweaty, filthy casual. This agony is only further prolonged as you realise you have received another defeat from someone who has deranked. As a result of this, I have had to stop playing and focus my attention elsewhere. I recently joined a friendly Old School Runescape Discord server, and with the great support and assistance of these members, whom I am proudly now able to call my friends, I am slowly closing the gap towards a FIRE CAPE. The thilling gameplay and pure excitement from 16hrs of straight griding in the Nightmare Zone have really made me consider never returning to OSU! Don't let my horror story put you off your grind; endurance is key, and you will triumph against these lowlifes. P.S. Love the Scottish accent🏆
As a tournament player, i can not explain enough how much derankers infuriate me. I love playing in tournaments but derankers just make it seem like there is no point in playing because there in no chance of winning. I do really like your idea for stopping them from playing in lower rank tournaments though!
@@Kobra_TF "just hit the top 50 so you don't have to deal with derankers lol" objectively correct but entirely missing the point. new players want the tournament experience too, having it be shredded by someone who has dedicated time to lowering their rank for a tournament discourages them from trying that aspect of the game until they either are top 50 or started deranking themselves, which is the whole point of the discussion
@@DeviousHandswhy someone who is new to tournies should have any chance to win? It doesn't matter whether you'll see derankers in lb or not, it just logically isn't possible for a newbie to get a high place
@@lefrutit228 nobody said anything about a new player winning, only getting their ass handed to them by someone clearly outside their skill level and having their experience ruined (if your first tournament was like that, why try again later when you're good?) i kinda wanna write some big metaphor about adding Micheal Jordan to your Little League game (not the thing he's best at but still very good) but meh, I think people will just fundamentally disagree on how osu! structures tournaments
@@lefrutit228yeah that's fair but even a veteran tournament player that doesn't have the skill to reach a higher rank than the tournament limit will get destroyed by any turbo deranker so there is no point.
The suggestion with spotlight playlists is creative, but spotlight performance is still so detached from tournament skill level, and even more malleable/"abusable" than solo rank, so I don't think it'd be more effective than solo rank. The spotlights proposal kinda depends on everyone putting in their best effort to place accurately on the spotlights leaderboard, but if everyone was willing to accurately rank themselves in the first place, there wouldn't be derankers to begin with Side note, some reputable figures in the tournament community have been workshopping an elo-like system for a while now. Will be interesting to see what comes out of that
I think o!mm and similar would be a great solution if officially implemented! I’m just looking at what’s already officially supported and trying to apply that to some sort of official solution - I think a community based Elo system would be amazing!
@@KommToby No matter what you do, there will always be ways to abuse the system. The only way would be a system where you are unable to lower your rank at all (apart from maybe inactivity decay). So the more important puzzle to solve is finding out why derankers derank and eliminate that as best as possible. One thing I noticed recently is, that apart from the badge, most badged tournaments do not offer a cash or supporter prize pool, which lower ranked tournaments (5 and 6 digit) usually do. Not saying those tournaments should stop giving out prizes, but might be one reason they do it. Personally, I think a good system has to keep track of your tournament wins (optionally 2nd and 3rd places as well). Just like BWS, you could use those placements for screening.
i can't be called a deranker because even considering that my skills was getting better the last 4 years and i wasn't grinding rank, when i tried it's hard for me because skills are better but consistency is dog because i wasn't playing for consistency this 4 years
ah yeah i forgot to tell that farming what is good for my rank has became so boring that i started trying to skip and do like +100-200 pp score bigger than my top score
i played in 6 digit range for more than 2 years now, and honestly i don't really know if i can say it about other rank ranges, but in 6 digit at least the very reason why there is so much derankers is just that most hosts don't care about this, usually only like 4 digit skill players get sceened, and then they just pretend that 10-30k skill level players are not derankers, you know... the ones who can 96-99% fc (or at least get 700k) score on like half of the grand finals pool if not on every map there, if hosts actually cared they could at least get rid off like 70% of derankers by making publicly available spreadsheet with people who had better performance in tournaments then most of 6 digits that would play this map
You might be interested in elitebotix, a discord bot that tracks all tournament plays and gives players an estimated “true” rating when you query them, could point this out to hosts who are struggling to screen people
its not that they struglling 90% of 6 dig hosts embrace derankers because with the derankers there will be like 10 players in a tournament LMFAO @@KommToby
I think Stage (5wc host) has some formula figured out to filter out derankers based on their past performances in tournaments. For the sake of rank restricted tournies, I hope it gets pushed out when its ready 🙏
The skills needed for gaining some pp and being able to play tournament pools decently at your rank are very separate. There are a ton of deranker/sandbaggers in 5-6 digit tournaments but a good chunk of them arent too good to be playing at that level, they just happen to prefer practicing a more generalized skillset than pp can estimate. Tbh I doubt there's a solution to that issue but stuff like ETX(very flawed but it tries), and not offering badges for low level tournies and such would help.
I dont quite understand these arguments; 1. People who arent "too good" to be playing at a level and practise more are not derankers, they are just tournament players who play non-farm maps and know when and how to practise pools, that's not what I'm trying to address, if I made it seem that way in the video I apologise 2. "not offering badges for low level tournies and such would help" I massively disagree, especially with BWS being normalised, and badges already applying to low level tournies, without giving badges it would allow derankers to just play in low level tourneys forever with no punishment or means to get them into a higher bracket
you can lose pp on multiplayer if you accidentally sv1 your old score + worse accuracy, which is not common but can still happen (not include in tourn or sv2)
I obviously would like to see a better matchmaking for osu tournaments but I honestly dont think derankers are a problem in badged brackets. I disagree with a lot of things said in this video. Firstly, very minor but I heavily doubt prizepool is even a reason people derank in the first place. Even as a deranker, winning tournaments is not an easy feat (especially if we want to pretend brackets are littered with other derankers), multiaccounting is actually a much easier method to gain prize support and improving multiaccount detection would be more appreciated than a way to screen derankers. Secondly, BWS does a much better job than you give it credit for. Most really good derankers end up winning badges and therefore they end up being unable to play lower bracket tournaments very fast. Its an inherently pretty effective system to naturally screen out players who are significantly better than the rest of the bracket (rather than the blanket term ''derankers''). Thirdly, derankers will usually not win a significant amount of the tournaments they play in. osu is at a tournament level is a much more volatile game than we pretend it is and the better player very often doesnt win. Either because they sightread the pool, because the other player had a better plan in picks, because the mappool favored his opponent or, for team tournaments, because their overall team was worse. ScholasticOG also adds a good point to this at 5:23 of the video where he explains that players inherently have a chance to win because the pools are relatively easy and its mostly a case of practicing the pool which is true. In conclusion, I do agree we should have a better matchmaking (maybe even tournament elo in lazer??) but its not because of derankers. Some players are just much better at playing consistently in tournaments than farming and finding a way to screen derankers would just cause more confusion on what counts as deranking. Inversly, a lot of mid 4 digits are significantly worse in tournaments than 5 digits and therefore they are unable to compete in tournaments at all. An elo system would allow them to play in tournaments where they actually have a chance to compete.
amazing video editing especially for a 501 sub yt channel, one thing i recommend (i have no idea what im doing when it comes to video editing) but maybe quiet background music?
The reason derankers exist is because the system used by tournament organizers makes absolutely no sense, and honestly can only be explained by incompetence. Imagine you are playing a game like valorant, except when you play ranked, no matter how much you win or lose your rank doesnt change, and when you play casual games your rank goes up and down if you win/lose. This is exactly what happens in osu!. The solution to fix tournaments is incredibly simple, someone's skill in competitive osu! tournaments should be judged based on, get this, their performance IN COMPETITIVE OSU tournaments, instead of their performance in non-competitive casual play. The solution is so obvious and yet completely ignored you have to wonder if it is just being ignored on purpose.
Yeah for simplicity I said top 100 and probably shouldn’t have, even if your 101st best play only gives ~0.56% of your total, it still counts. I also skipped bonus pp for same reason of simplicity, which if I was to explain again would probably be mentioned
@@KommToby i think it would have been hard to explain every single detail in a way that wouldnt bombard the viewer (who you assume to have 0 knowledge in osu) with too much information. i think you did a great job !!
the best solution is to cope with them lol, everyone just have to improve to be able to be at derankers' skill level instead of crying about them.... Imagine, we have an ideal deranker determination system, how would it choose them? Let's take a common 5dig tourney: if we attach some true skill number to every participant and then sort them, that system must ideally "draw" some line somewhere in this list. BUT choose any place - big picture will be the same as the initial one, just less players. Sometimes it's clear where the line should be put(jayden/dever/light/xillerini joining some local 50k:))), but it's pretty rare... Sry for shitpost 😢 i just wanted to say that restricting some players and allowing others is too subjective and just devaluates someone's practice efforts
Nah I get where you’re coming from, the solution in the video is less being subjective to specific people (how many tournaments currently do manual screening) and more implements an objective ranking system which is harder to derank in. But like you say any tournament that had a wide range of players, there are going to be those who are better than others, but that’s not what I’m talking about
@@KommToby yeah ik, I just was keeping in my head the words of other commentators about cons of solutions in the video) I think etx/skill issue is the closest that we have for now for objective ranking
a few issues; - most tournaments (at the moment) do not use lazer client specific operations (i.e. new mods); as a result players who stick with stable for whatever reason won't have a spotlights rank (mine being windows 7, but I'm sure there's someone on a 1982 pentium grinding osu who would be very upset by the mandatory pc upgrade) - assuming this is implemented, it's very easy for a dedicated deranker to just go for NF fcs (assuming there's a minimum cap) or to just miss every other note (assuming there's not). it also assumes someone is willing to go through playlists just to establish a history so they can enter tournaments, further disincentivizing the pick-up-and-play nature current tournaments have (which is probably what leads to the deranking issue in the first place...) - if you're really dedicated, you can check multi lobbies for spotlight maps using external tools, meaning derankers do have a chance to at least infer the scores they should get for the maps in question however it's better than the Literal Nothing we have for low end tournaments now (especially with osu! refusing to support lower level tournaments), implement immediately
Lots of great points! As I mentioned in the video there’s no true solution to derankers, and the one I provided was more of a step in the right direction than a complete prevention - I really like your point about forcing players onto lazer though, even when full pp implementation comes through there will be a large fraction of the community that won’t want to make that switch for various reasons
@@DeviousHands yeah spotlights are based on score, not pp. your point is valid, if derankers wanted they could persistently hold a lower rank by just always playing NF Time to bring back the discussion of making NF 0.5x multiplier only apply if your health bar hits 0 >:)
as a ex-tourney player, regardless of if players are playing beatmap spotlights or not, tournament hosts generally exclude the spotlight badges as they aren't contextually in a tourney setting and will only apply std-only (and not mapping/contributor) tourney badges to BWS along with the player's rank
For an example of deranking, just look at Forum. Man really carried SK in OWC while being 3 digit and then when he farms, he got to top 50 within 5 days lol
I haven't played online on osu in an entire year. I used to play 3.5 stars but now I paly 5.5 stars on osu mania. I don't really care about ranks cause to me it isn't important. I'd rather not have to deal with all that.
Doubt they care much for other mode especially mania. Top player from other game come and go getting 10k pp in an hour and never login again all the time.
There is no such thing as a dumb question! People are obviously free to do what they want, and if they aren’t abusing the fact they have a lower rank with higher skill I’m sure nobody will have an issue with that :)
Wait a minute, I'm pretty sure pp is all the BEST plays you have ever done on a ranked map. So even when I was making 1 pp it's still a part of my pp score despite the fact that it's probably weighted 0.00000[...]1%
You’re absolutely right! When I get home I need to add this as a note to the description. I will be honest I overlooked this when making the video and it’s a mistake
About ranks that spotlights give... its even worse idea that current ranking. I can just simply get iron and play iron tourneys by playing bad with my skill i can get iron bronze thats it even with only mouse. Usually pelple derank when they are at decent rank already
Super simple solution - on the player stats profile you can already see "highest rank achieved" maybe rank caps can be based on that or are there too many loopholes still?
Most of the cases where highest rank achieved is larger than their current rank is just natural decay. I’m not a deranker myself yet I was 7k in 2020, and now I’m 15k - imagine this for people who started in early 2010s, they might have decayed even 50k ranks while maintaining the same skill Also, lots of derankers tend to start at the high 5 digits, and they’ll just never break their peak rank, some people having the skill of a 4 digit while still having their peak rank as listed 30-60k It’s definitely something to consider when looking at a profile, but I don’t think it can be a solution in its whole
Let me add here that “Derankers” doesn’t just apply to people who lower their rank as I mentioned in the video, it also applies to people who stop ranking up completely while still gaining significant skill, not necessary lowering their rank, but making a large gap between their real and perceived skill
The thing is: osu! has a vicious cycle: 1. You play for fun. 2. Then, you're suddenly gaining pp and rank. 3. Then, after some time, you get demotivated and plateau. 4. Then, you take a break and derank in the process. 5. Then, you go back to playing. The cycle repeats and everyone has different time spans of every single step of it. Right now, it's possible to intentionally derank because of the shitty scoring system in stable, but if lazer becomes the default client (which has a much better and fairer scoring system), nobody will be able to decrease their rank intentionally anymore. In the future, deranking will only be because you're going through 3 and 4. I only play the game casually all the time and I didn't really have any reason to improve but when I entered a tournament, I had to improve so that I could perform good at the tournament and I earned 100 raw pp in the process. It was a huge spike in my profile and people called me a deranker because of it.
ok
ok
ok
i haven't gained ranks in 1 month and i prefer the term deranker instead of skill issue
Decayer
Well, then you are either a decayer (just not playing / unable to set scores) or sandbagger (intentionally avoiding setting scores or set scores that don't go above a certain rank).
havent gained any rank in 4 years ong
been losing rank for 4 years now
They should make this guy the CEO of gaming.
Already am chief
Honestly no idea how I ended up here, but I've started Osu last year (sitting at rank 1.4m and probably will continue to sit there for the foreseeable future) and enjoyed watching this for some reason.
I didn't realize there was a competitive scene for Osu for all skill levels since I mostly played to just have "fun" attempting maps my friends play on even though I'm not at their level yet. I wouldn't say this video informed me on anything that would be relevant to me, but it was an enjoyable watch nonetheless!
Thank you for the feedback! It’s great to get the perspective for a truly casual player - hopefully you learnt something worthwhile :)
Damn, this is actually a good video! Looking forward to more!!
another big reason that derankers exist is that pp does not translate to tournament skill and tournament skill does not translate to pp.
there is a pretty significant playerbase of people in 4-5 dig range that prefer tournament gameplay to pp farming, and don't really care about grinding out scores for rank. Its in the nature of combo scoring that its very easy to play well and not gain rank if you just don't fc the map. Tools like elitebotix rank have had pretty varied responses for their use (especially in low rank tournaments) but ultimately I think its a step in the right direction for the goal of balance even if its not perfect at the moment.
for the time being low rank tournaments dont really matter enough to get this kind of high effort organisation, and its a privilege that hosts continue to run them.
idk if it's just me but i feel like the pp farming meta in the past few years has decorrelated ranks from tournament skill even further than it used to. Like, what's the point in being a top 50 player who FCs 10* maps and then proceed to struggle on 6* tournament maps....
I think it has led to a situation where you can become a deranker "by accident" just as a side effect of your map preferences (i.e not wanting farm in top plays)
The big issue with ETX is it's algorithm and the ease of manipulating it. The current hope is o!TR, a project by Stage that tries to create a competitive ranking system like we see it in CS/Val/LoL/DotA/etc.
It remains to be seen, if it'll be able to avoid the issues ETX has and I think tournament hosts will play a huge part in how useful it will be.
@@ximaxwellix this would be ideal
i have to disagree with this one almost all tournament players can recreate their scores online
The reason derankers exist is because the system used by tournament organizers makes absolutely no sense, and honestly can only be explained by incompetence.
Imagine you are playing a game like valorant, except when you play ranked, no matter how much you win or lose your rank doesnt change, and when you play casual games your rank goes up and down if you win/lose.
This is exactly what happens in osu!. The solution to fix tournaments is incredibly simple, someone's skill in competitive osu! tournaments should be judged based on, get this, their performance IN COMPETITIVE OSU tournaments, instead of their performance in non-competitive casual play.
The solution is so obvious and yet completely ignored you have to wonder if it is just being ignored on purpose.
WOW!
What a wonderful and informative video. The OSU! community thanks you for putting such a great amount of effort into this, from the detailed animations to the outstanding soundbytes (pure nostalgia from Vsauce).
As an ex-OSU! player, I always struggled with playing against smurfs >:( I blame my friend - Jamgyo. Forcefully making me download the game and getting me hooked. From there, it was a never-ending spiral of despair and misery from these smurfs. The game baits you in with its fun colours, fast-action-paced music, and anime backgrounds. Only to be humiliated as the screen goes black and you get a glimpse of your reflection... A sad, sweaty, filthy casual. This agony is only further prolonged as you realise you have received another defeat from someone who has deranked.
As a result of this, I have had to stop playing and focus my attention elsewhere. I recently joined a friendly Old School Runescape Discord server, and with the great support and assistance of these members, whom I am proudly now able to call my friends, I am slowly closing the gap towards a FIRE CAPE. The thilling gameplay and pure excitement from 16hrs of straight griding in the Nightmare Zone have really made me consider never returning to OSU!
Don't let my horror story put you off your grind; endurance is key, and you will triumph against these lowlifes.
P.S. Love the Scottish accent🏆
As a tournament player, i can not explain enough how much derankers infuriate me. I love playing in tournaments but derankers just make it seem like there is no point in playing because there in no chance of winning. I do really like your idea for stopping them from playing in lower rank tournaments though!
If you can't beat deranker, get better in the game =)
Also, there are no derankers in the top 50, so you're welcome
@@Kobra_TF "just hit the top 50 so you don't have to deal with derankers lol"
objectively correct but entirely missing the point. new players want the tournament experience too, having it be shredded by someone who has dedicated time to lowering their rank for a tournament discourages them from trying that aspect of the game until they either are top 50 or started deranking themselves, which is the whole point of the discussion
@@DeviousHandswhy someone who is new to tournies should have any chance to win? It doesn't matter whether you'll see derankers in lb or not, it just logically isn't possible for a newbie to get a high place
@@lefrutit228 nobody said anything about a new player winning, only getting their ass handed to them by someone clearly outside their skill level and having their experience ruined (if your first tournament was like that, why try again later when you're good?)
i kinda wanna write some big metaphor about adding Micheal Jordan to your Little League game (not the thing he's best at but still very good) but meh, I think people will just fundamentally disagree on how osu! structures tournaments
@@lefrutit228yeah that's fair but even a veteran tournament player that doesn't have the skill to reach a higher rank than the tournament limit will get destroyed by any turbo deranker so there is no point.
wow komm, this is a really cool video! I loved the summary of osu!
wow luke, this is a really cool comment! I loved the praise of the summary of osu!
The suggestion with spotlight playlists is creative, but spotlight performance is still so detached from tournament skill level, and even more malleable/"abusable" than solo rank, so I don't think it'd be more effective than solo rank. The spotlights proposal kinda depends on everyone putting in their best effort to place accurately on the spotlights leaderboard, but if everyone was willing to accurately rank themselves in the first place, there wouldn't be derankers to begin with
Side note, some reputable figures in the tournament community have been workshopping an elo-like system for a while now. Will be interesting to see what comes out of that
I think o!mm and similar would be a great solution if officially implemented! I’m just looking at what’s already officially supported and trying to apply that to some sort of official solution - I think a community based Elo system would be amazing!
@@KommToby No matter what you do, there will always be ways to abuse the system. The only way would be a system where you are unable to lower your rank at all (apart from maybe inactivity decay). So the more important puzzle to solve is finding out why derankers derank and eliminate that as best as possible.
One thing I noticed recently is, that apart from the badge, most badged tournaments do not offer a cash or supporter prize pool, which lower ranked tournaments (5 and 6 digit) usually do. Not saying those tournaments should stop giving out prizes, but might be one reason they do it.
Personally, I think a good system has to keep track of your tournament wins (optionally 2nd and 3rd places as well). Just like BWS, you could use those placements for screening.
Komm osu! content!? I will watch this while eating my dinner
The only way to watch
Smurfs (2009) starring Barney from how I met your father
i can't be called a deranker because even considering that my skills was getting better the last 4 years and i wasn't grinding rank, when i tried it's hard for me because skills are better but consistency is dog because i wasn't playing for consistency this 4 years
ah yeah i forgot to tell that farming what is good for my rank has became so boring that i started trying to skip and do like +100-200 pp score bigger than my top score
0:14 well, that didn't age well
really well explained i never knew this term before thanks
Same issue. The proposed solution is just "change",which isnt really much of a proposal, but more of a disapproval for the current system.
a want for change can be defined as a disapproval of any current system yes
i played in 6 digit range for more than 2 years now, and honestly i don't really know if i can say it about other rank ranges, but in 6 digit at least the very reason why there is so much derankers is just that most hosts don't care about this, usually only like 4 digit skill players get sceened, and then they just pretend that 10-30k skill level players are not derankers, you know... the ones who can 96-99% fc (or at least get 700k) score on like half of the grand finals pool if not on every map there, if hosts actually cared they could at least get rid off like 70% of derankers by making publicly available spreadsheet with people who had better performance in tournaments then most of 6 digits that would play this map
You might be interested in elitebotix, a discord bot that tracks all tournament plays and gives players an estimated “true” rating when you query them, could point this out to hosts who are struggling to screen people
its not that they struglling 90% of 6 dig hosts embrace derankers because with the derankers there will be like 10 players in a tournament LMFAO @@KommToby
@@TheRealDeathmatch 😂
@@KommTobyexpect you can derank etx and people do that
6 digit is probably the friendliest for beginners to participate in because they do actual manual screening instead of just scanning for sus people
I think Stage (5wc host) has some formula figured out to filter out derankers based on their past performances in tournaments. For the sake of rank restricted tournies, I hope it gets pushed out when its ready 🙏
finally someone speaking the truth about this... peace brother
The skills needed for gaining some pp and being able to play tournament pools decently at your rank are very separate. There are a ton of deranker/sandbaggers in 5-6 digit tournaments but a good chunk of them arent too good to be playing at that level, they just happen to prefer practicing a more generalized skillset than pp can estimate. Tbh I doubt there's a solution to that issue but stuff like ETX(very flawed but it tries), and not offering badges for low level tournies and such would help.
I dont quite understand these arguments;
1. People who arent "too good" to be playing at a level and practise more are not derankers, they are just tournament players who play non-farm maps and know when and how to practise pools, that's not what I'm trying to address, if I made it seem that way in the video I apologise
2. "not offering badges for low level tournies and such would help" I massively disagree, especially with BWS being normalised, and badges already applying to low level tournies, without giving badges it would allow derankers to just play in low level tourneys forever with no punishment or means to get them into a higher bracket
I was a high 4 digit back in 2015 with the skills of a current 30-40k
and now I'm a rank 30k with the skills of a 60k.
I'm the ultimate decayer.
very nice video! this kind of videos is what i consider good osu content, keep up :P
Is improving on skillsets that do not reward pp considered deranking too?
The short answer is no
That's a *no~*
you can lose pp on multiplayer if you accidentally sv1 your old score + worse accuracy, which is not common but can still happen (not include in tourn or sv2)
Yeah I explain that in the video :)
I obviously would like to see a better matchmaking for osu tournaments but I honestly dont think derankers are a problem in badged brackets. I disagree with a lot of things said in this video.
Firstly, very minor but I heavily doubt prizepool is even a reason people derank in the first place. Even as a deranker, winning tournaments is not an easy feat (especially if we want to pretend brackets are littered with other derankers), multiaccounting is actually a much easier method to gain prize support and improving multiaccount detection would be more appreciated than a way to screen derankers.
Secondly, BWS does a much better job than you give it credit for. Most really good derankers end up winning badges and therefore they end up being unable to play lower bracket tournaments very fast. Its an inherently pretty effective system to naturally screen out players who are significantly better than the rest of the bracket (rather than the blanket term ''derankers'').
Thirdly, derankers will usually not win a significant amount of the tournaments they play in. osu is at a tournament level is a much more volatile game than we pretend it is and the better player very often doesnt win. Either because they sightread the pool, because the other player had a better plan in picks, because the mappool favored his opponent or, for team tournaments, because their overall team was worse. ScholasticOG also adds a good point to this at 5:23 of the video where he explains that players inherently have a chance to win because the pools are relatively easy and its mostly a case of practicing the pool which is true.
In conclusion, I do agree we should have a better matchmaking (maybe even tournament elo in lazer??) but its not because of derankers. Some players are just much better at playing consistently in tournaments than farming and finding a way to screen derankers would just cause more confusion on what counts as deranking. Inversly, a lot of mid 4 digits are significantly worse in tournaments than 5 digits and therefore they are unable to compete in tournaments at all. An elo system would allow them to play in tournaments where they actually have a chance to compete.
+++++ we need a good elo
Yes, ive been decaying even further from 200k on purpose, its all a strategy
amazing video editing especially for a 501 sub yt channel, one thing i recommend (i have no idea what im doing when it comes to video editing) but maybe quiet background music?
The reason derankers exist is because the system used by tournament organizers makes absolutely no sense, and honestly can only be explained by incompetence.
Imagine you are playing a game like valorant, except when you play ranked, no matter how much you win or lose your rank doesnt change, and when you play casual games your rank goes up and down if you win/lose.
This is exactly what happens in osu!. The solution to fix tournaments is incredibly simple, someone's skill in competitive osu! tournaments should be judged based on, get this, their performance IN COMPETITIVE OSU tournaments, instead of their performance in non-competitive casual play.
The solution is so obvious and yet completely ignored you have to wonder if it is just being ignored on purpose.
3:03 its actually a weighted sum of ALL of your plays, not just your t100
its just that anything below a t100 play gives so little that its almost 0
Yeah for simplicity I said top 100 and probably shouldn’t have, even if your 101st best play only gives ~0.56% of your total, it still counts.
I also skipped bonus pp for same reason of simplicity, which if I was to explain again would probably be mentioned
@@KommToby i think it would have been hard to explain every single detail in a way that wouldnt bombard the viewer (who you assume to have 0 knowledge in osu) with too much information. i think you did a great job !!
Great video!
the best solution is to cope with them lol, everyone just have to improve to be able to be at derankers' skill level instead of crying about them....
Imagine, we have an ideal deranker determination system, how would it choose them? Let's take a common 5dig tourney: if we attach some true skill number to every participant and then sort them, that system must ideally "draw" some line somewhere in this list. BUT choose any place - big picture will be the same as the initial one, just less players. Sometimes it's clear where the line should be put(jayden/dever/light/xillerini joining some local 50k:))), but it's pretty rare...
Sry for shitpost 😢 i just wanted to say that restricting some players and allowing others is too subjective and just devaluates someone's practice efforts
Nah I get where you’re coming from, the solution in the video is less being subjective to specific people (how many tournaments currently do manual screening) and more implements an objective ranking system which is harder to derank in. But like you say any tournament that had a wide range of players, there are going to be those who are better than others, but that’s not what I’m talking about
@@KommToby yeah ik, I just was keeping in my head the words of other commentators about cons of solutions in the video)
I think etx/skill issue is the closest that we have for now for objective ranking
The amount of yapping in this video is unbelievable
Yappington
This is such a good video
derek mentioned? spazza17 osu clipper? norway🇧🇻
I've been homeless for 6 months and i'd prefer the term deranker
a few issues;
- most tournaments (at the moment) do not use lazer client specific operations (i.e. new mods); as a result players who stick with stable for whatever reason won't have a spotlights rank (mine being windows 7, but I'm sure there's someone on a 1982 pentium grinding osu who would be very upset by the mandatory pc upgrade)
- assuming this is implemented, it's very easy for a dedicated deranker to just go for NF fcs (assuming there's a minimum cap) or to just miss every other note (assuming there's not). it also assumes someone is willing to go through playlists just to establish a history so they can enter tournaments, further disincentivizing the pick-up-and-play nature current tournaments have (which is probably what leads to the deranking issue in the first place...)
- if you're really dedicated, you can check multi lobbies for spotlight maps using external tools, meaning derankers do have a chance to at least infer the scores they should get for the maps in question
however it's better than the Literal Nothing we have for low end tournaments now (especially with osu! refusing to support lower level tournaments), implement immediately
Lots of great points! As I mentioned in the video there’s no true solution to derankers, and the one I provided was more of a step in the right direction than a complete prevention - I really like your point about forcing players onto lazer though, even when full pp implementation comes through there will be a large fraction of the community that won’t want to make that switch for various reasons
your point with nf is not really working, nf gives the same pp like nm on fc since a while, the penality of nf only happens to non fc's lol
@@doesthiswork28 ??? spotlights are based on score not pp right? unless lazer makes NF 1.0x
@@DeviousHands yeah spotlights are based on score, not pp. your point is valid, if derankers wanted they could persistently hold a lower rank by just always playing NF
Time to bring back the discussion of making NF 0.5x multiplier only apply if your health bar hits 0 >:)
as a ex-tourney player, regardless of if players are playing beatmap spotlights or not, tournament hosts generally exclude the spotlight badges as they aren't contextually in a tourney setting and will only apply std-only (and not mapping/contributor) tourney badges to BWS along with the player's rank
For an example of deranking, just look at Forum. Man really carried SK in OWC while being 3 digit and then when he farms, he got to top 50 within 5 days lol
Ok. problem with using the spotlight badges is you can just play them badly. It's that simple.
great video
Kommtent Kreator Pog
krazy times fr
Yoo what i have you as a mutual i didnt know you made videos
Yo no way! Who are you? :D
@@KommToby I'm spam :D
no way hahaha what are the odds @@Ranni.
i just didnt like farming that much lmfao didnt even farm 4-5 digit tournaments or whatever I just wanted to chill and do my own thing.
thanks
i dont like this video but can we still be besties
Of course
I haven't played online on osu in an entire year. I used to play 3.5 stars but now I paly 5.5 stars on osu mania. I don't really care about ranks cause to me it isn't important. I'd rather not have to deal with all that.
Doubt they care much for other mode especially mania. Top player from other game come and go getting 10k pp in an hour and never login again all the time.
Dumb question but what about derankers who don't participate in any tournament?
There is no such thing as a dumb question! People are obviously free to do what they want, and if they aren’t abusing the fact they have a lower rank with higher skill I’m sure nobody will have an issue with that :)
Wait a minute, I'm pretty sure pp is all the BEST plays you have ever done on a ranked map. So even when I was making 1 pp it's still a part of my pp score despite the fact that it's probably weighted 0.00000[...]1%
You’re absolutely right! When I get home I need to add this as a note to the description. I will be honest I overlooked this when making the video and it’s a mistake
im deranking
wtf toby voice
hello alex-kp6vk its me vva_564yx43
KOMM MY BELOVED
no way fancy seeing you here
5:40 bubbleman's pfp 💀
nice video
I deranked while watching this video!
Death Penalty
About ranks that spotlights give... its even worse idea that current ranking. I can just simply get iron and play iron tourneys by playing bad with my skill i can get iron bronze thats it even with only mouse. Usually pelple derank when they are at decent rank already
Yeah but ur top plays and stable rank still exist right 🤔 it’s not a replacement it’s an addition is the idea
Super simple solution - on the player stats profile you can already see "highest rank achieved"
maybe rank caps can be based on that or are there too many loopholes still?
Most of the cases where highest rank achieved is larger than their current rank is just natural decay. I’m not a deranker myself yet I was 7k in 2020, and now I’m 15k - imagine this for people who started in early 2010s, they might have decayed even 50k ranks while maintaining the same skill
Also, lots of derankers tend to start at the high 5 digits, and they’ll just never break their peak rank, some people having the skill of a 4 digit while still having their peak rank as listed 30-60k
It’s definitely something to consider when looking at a profile, but I don’t think it can be a solution in its whole
Let me add here that “Derankers” doesn’t just apply to people who lower their rank as I mentioned in the video, it also applies to people who stop ranking up completely while still gaining significant skill, not necessary lowering their rank, but making a large gap between their real and perceived skill
@@KommToby Oh, makes sense yeah.
Also your highest rank achieved remains even if you had cheated and illegally reached a higher rank. It will remain after unban
if you go off highest rank achieved then you filter out the legit people who ragecheated 4 years back and let in the people who peaked 11k
Hi toby I didn't know you're cool wtf
i like vtubers
fake deranker
do you have the download link for the skin at 5:46, looks pretty cool
cheers komm
OMG HIIIIII FLUXEY!!!!
OMG HIIIIII FLUXEY!!!!
puaj king gg
skill issue
i love pp
pp
your voice hurts my teeth and I don't know why lol
I eat teeth
The thing is: osu! has a vicious cycle:
1. You play for fun.
2. Then, you're suddenly gaining pp and rank.
3. Then, after some time, you get demotivated and plateau.
4. Then, you take a break and derank in the process.
5. Then, you go back to playing.
The cycle repeats and everyone has different time spans of every single step of it.
Right now, it's possible to intentionally derank because of the shitty scoring system in stable, but if lazer becomes the default client (which has a much better and fairer scoring system), nobody will be able to decrease their rank intentionally anymore. In the future, deranking will only be because you're going through 3 and 4.
I only play the game casually all the time and I didn't really have any reason to improve but when I entered a tournament, I had to improve so that I could perform good at the tournament and I earned 100 raw pp in the process. It was a huge spike in my profile and people called me a deranker because of it.
thanks komm
hi willwam
6 digit Deranker hangout🔥🔥🔥WTF IS A FARM MAP!🦅
llora pe llora
hi Komm
Hi Stimex
Whats the skin at 6:35 ?
It’s a custom made skin I used by stealing a bunch of assets from other skins back in 2021
ok
Greninja