Glad to see this info. The biomechanics of self-carriage is something I believe every rider,regardless of discipline, should consider and try to understand. I agree with Buck that encouraging the horse to lift the back and the base of the neck (not the head!) is key to enabling the kind of engagement that leads to balanced work over the haunches. If the horse is stuck on the forehand, no amount of driving forward from behind is going to create correct impulsion.
It has been interesting over last several months of replies! Some have insight to the horse and most that have replied have that feel that makes the big difference! Some are only interested in "mechanics" and a horsemanship book that tells all "this is how it should look like!" These people who write a "one size fits all horsemanship" have no freaking clue! The horse is the one who let's us know his needs and we adjust to fit the horses life! Not the other way!
Hey Mike! Thanks for posting! This sounds about like the same thing he told us in Steamboat last year. His new mission- elevation! :-) Thanks for sharing!
I was thinking something similar the other night. During my first horseback riding lessons, I was never told to keep my heels down, or otherwise nagged at incessantly about my position, and during that period of maybe two years, I never felt insecure, or scared, and I never fell off. Later, when I rode at more "serious" stables, keeping my heels down became an obsession from which I don't think I've yet to recover, but I don't think Buck Branaman brings back that kind of natural horsemanship.
@SparkyArtz I was referring to your implying that I'm uninformed with your, yes, snide recommendation that I "pay attention to the world." Still, I accept your sort-of apology.
is there a video of him demonstrating or explaining the process of making "true collection?" The process I was taught of extension and collection (riding English) involves sitting, adding leg (not spur) to contain, and holding (not pulling) the reins, and suppling if the horse does not listen. While this is effective in containing, often a strong-mouthed horse doesn't soften, but rather compresses like a spring. Is this technique right?
@MikeThomasHorsemen How do you know "Buck is sought out by Olympic Team Members and Grand Prix Dressage riders around the world"? What is your source for that information?
IMO engagement can only come from the hind forwards, and when the horse is engaged his head and neck will naturally lower. I'm interested in what Buck has to say here because I like his other work, but I struggle to see how lifting the horse's neck will not in turn cause the back to go hollow - if the hind isn't engaged first! If the hind is engaged, the shoulders lift and it is relative erection. But without the hind engaged, you are just causing hollowness.
whats with all the bashing cant everyone just appreciate good info the guy has students that range from Olympic level riders to backyard novices that's priceless and regardless of what discipline your in a good horseman is a good horseman
I have now sat through two days of a four day Buck clinic with both groundwork and horsemanship classes. I am fascinated. I think I am learning great information that I will apply to my own riding. I am also a dressage rider, and find it very sad that he take the very worst of incorrect dressage and presents that to a crowd of people (who may never search out the truth for themselves) as if that is what dressage is. It's not.
to those that don't know, if you saw the film Buck The Documentary; I was the fellow who along with Betsy Shirley got him his start with my Life Friends: Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. For the cynics out there, I feel bad for you in your lack of information and facts. Buck is honoring these great men Ray, Tom and Bill everyday, the finest horsemen the world has ever seen. You might travel the "high road" sometime...a lot less traffic!!!
Mr. Brannaman has much to offer and is correct on some things. However: 1. a horse is always in balance 2. the opening of the withers does not engage the hindquarters 3. the back is raised only through the engagement of the torso muscles. These are biomechancial facts that cannot be altered in any manner. Now if Mr. Brannaman wants to discuss this with me on camera I am most willing.
@MikeThomasHorsemen Neither can 99% of ALL riders, ride without depending on their hands. That's because it's hard and takes a really good seat, along with timing from accurate feel. Developing a good seat, for most people, takes tremendous effort, including overcoming fear occasioned by riding itself. Riding is a great and demanding discipline. "Natural horsemanship" neglects the difficult task of learning to sit really and truly well. Until one does, one burdens the horse.
I can keep my horse going forward with proper collection and bending by just jiggling the bit slightly with my ring fingers, and a light pressure from my inside calf. If your horse is sensitive, and not dead to all aids, spurs shouldn't be necessary. I ride hunter/jumper/western. My friends ride dressage, and tease me about "riding with no contact", because i leave my horse's mouth alone. If they rode my horse like that, they wouldn't be in the saddle long.
I think you misunderstand what he's saying. He's talking about your average Joe rider who sees Big Name rider using spurs, etc, and thinks that's what creates balance and collection. It isn't. He also was only saying that unless your horse's shoulders are freely moving, his hind end cannot properly engage and there is no true push from behind or impulsion. I think Mr Brannaman knows more about "true" dressage than at least half of the big name trainers/riders out there.
When I first read abiscott this morning I almost got ???*&%. It was obvious that knew nothing about soft feel like 99% of all Dressage Riders that can't ride without their hands in the horses mouth. It is right if horse's head is elevated (nose head upside down) any horse will have "hollow back" and I agree! The difference is something that the writer never felt or experienced! Vetical flexion from the poll with a slack rein, thus the back rises and does not fall into hollow back,!
Sadly you misunderstand what he is saying. Learn to observe, listen, and think. He wears spurs, so clearly he isn't disregarding spurs, but only the improper use of them. He specifically refers to forcing the head DOWN-- a pleasure horse or reining horse fault (Dressage riders have rolkur for their sin). Again, you must learn to listen and watch. He never in this video mentions dressage. You only assumed he was talking about it.
It would be like me going back to my dressage friends and saying that the worst riders in Buck's clinic are what Buck is. Not true, either. There are terrible riders and trainers in EVERY discipline of riding. I hope to learn as much as I can from him and temper it with what I know of dressage, and continue to learn and grow as a rider.
@Irene6820 I feel the same way about "natural" horsemanship proponents. They come off like they alone know "the truth." They discount the huge contributions of other, more traditional horsemen like Col. d'Endrody, Rainer Klimke, William Steinkraus and, someone who constantly thought outside the box, the late, great Jimmy Williams, who unfortunately, unlike the others, did not commit his philosophy to writing. Really, I've found natural horsemanship proponents are the biggest snobs.
@MatthewBakke Buck Branaman seems to me just another flavor-of-the-month guru of the currently popular natural horsemanship movement, which dumbs riding down. You, on the other hand, have obviously been enjoying such watered-down Kool-Aid. You don't need to insult me to make your point, whatever that might be. In fact, your point gets obscured by your illogical assumption that I'm not informed about the world, as apparently evidenced by my lack of enthusiasm for Buck Branaman.
Im no western rider but Buck is using the same techniques that USED to be taught to all english riders before they started relying on artificial aids to crank the head in too many dressage horses are now stiff and overbent relying on a hard hand on the mouth to hold them in frame
@1Lmaris LOL...and that's why you can't find a dressage bridle these days that doesn't come with a flash attachment and a crank noseband. Cause modern dressage is all about the lightness. I always find it ironic that a sport that claims to be about invisible communication with the horse and infinitesimal aids has to be done with a crank noseband, 2" spurs and a 42" whip...you know, just for subtle reminders. I hate dressage snobs. They talk the talk but never seem to walk the walk.
@hannjenn Wasn't being a snide prick... and oh. I have insecurity? That's great... guess I'll have to do something about that. Didn't mean to come across... the way I must have. It's just TH-cam.
Maybe you should read less books and look at more reality. Why do you thing the FEI is still reworking its blood ruling wording for dressage competitions? If the horses werent regularly getting over use of the bits and spurs they wouldnt be getting injuries to cause bleeding - other than the occasional bit tongue and cut lip. I bet Bucks horses dont have that problem
@MikeThomasHorsemen I don't think you're doing Buck Branaman any favors with your fanatical love of him. It makes me think he must be a crank to attract someone so prone to idolatry.
Buck isn't a person who just joined along in the "natural horsemanship fad", he's been doing it for over 30 years but he got his fame when one woman decided to make a documentary on him, he didnt just follow the crowd. Get to understand him through his training and not just his documentary, his principles are very similar, if not, identical to classical dressage. Get your facts straight before you talk out of your ass, get educated.
Glad to see this info. The biomechanics of self-carriage is something I believe every rider,regardless of discipline, should consider and try to understand. I agree with Buck that encouraging the horse to lift the back and the base of the neck (not the head!) is key to enabling the kind of engagement that leads to balanced work over the haunches. If the horse is stuck on the forehand, no amount of driving forward from behind is going to create correct impulsion.
I love Buck brannaman!
It has been interesting over last several months of replies! Some have insight to the horse and most that have replied have that feel that makes the big difference! Some are only interested in "mechanics" and a horsemanship book that tells all "this is how it should look like!" These people who write a "one size fits all horsemanship" have no freaking clue! The horse is the one who let's us know his needs and we adjust to fit the horses life! Not the other way!
Hey Mike! Thanks for posting! This sounds about like the same thing he told us in Steamboat last year. His new mission- elevation! :-) Thanks for sharing!
Great man.
I was thinking something similar the other night. During my first horseback riding lessons, I was never told to keep my heels down, or otherwise nagged at incessantly about my position, and during that period of maybe two years, I never felt insecure, or scared, and I never fell off. Later, when I rode at more "serious" stables, keeping my heels down became an obsession from which I don't think I've yet to recover, but I don't think Buck Branaman brings back that kind of natural horsemanship.
Well darn, where's the rest?
@SparkyArtz I was referring to your implying that I'm uninformed with your, yes, snide recommendation that I "pay attention to the world." Still, I accept your sort-of apology.
is there a video of him demonstrating or explaining the process of making "true collection?"
The process I was taught of extension and collection (riding English) involves sitting, adding leg (not spur) to contain, and holding (not pulling) the reins, and suppling if the horse does not listen. While this is effective in containing, often a strong-mouthed horse doesn't soften, but rather compresses like a spring. Is this technique right?
@MikeThomasHorsemen How do you know "Buck is sought out by Olympic Team Members and Grand Prix Dressage riders around the world"? What is your source for that information?
IMO engagement can only come from the hind forwards, and when the horse is engaged his head and neck will naturally lower. I'm interested in what Buck has to say here because I like his other work, but I struggle to see how lifting the horse's neck will not in turn cause the back to go hollow - if the hind isn't engaged first! If the hind is engaged, the shoulders lift and it is relative erection. But without the hind engaged, you are just causing hollowness.
@hannjenn Where have you been?
whats with all the bashing cant everyone just appreciate good info the guy has students that range from Olympic level riders to backyard novices that's priceless and regardless of what discipline your in a good horseman is a good horseman
I have now sat through two days of a four day Buck clinic with both groundwork and horsemanship classes. I am fascinated. I think I am learning great information that I will apply to my own riding. I am also a dressage rider, and find it very sad that he take the very worst of incorrect dressage and presents that to a crowd of people (who may never search out the truth for themselves) as if that is what dressage is. It's not.
to those that don't know, if you saw the film Buck The Documentary; I was the fellow who along with Betsy Shirley got him his start with my Life Friends: Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. For the cynics out there, I feel bad for you in your lack of information and facts. Buck is honoring these great men Ray, Tom and Bill everyday, the finest horsemen the world has ever seen. You might travel the "high road" sometime...a lot less traffic!!!
Mr. Brannaman has much to offer and is correct on some things.
However:
1. a horse is always in balance
2. the opening of the withers does not engage the hindquarters
3. the back is raised only through the engagement of the torso muscles.
These are biomechancial facts that cannot be altered in any manner.
Now if Mr. Brannaman wants to discuss this with me on camera I am most willing.
@hannjenn Google his name.... or watch the documentary on him... or just, pay attention to the world?
@MikeThomasHorsemen Neither can 99% of ALL riders, ride without depending on their hands. That's because it's hard and takes a really good seat, along with timing from accurate feel. Developing a good seat, for most people, takes tremendous effort, including overcoming fear occasioned by riding itself. Riding is a great and demanding discipline. "Natural horsemanship" neglects the difficult task of learning to sit really and truly well. Until one does, one burdens the horse.
I can keep my horse going forward with proper collection and bending by just jiggling the bit slightly with my ring fingers, and a light pressure from my inside calf. If your horse is sensitive, and not dead to all aids, spurs shouldn't be necessary. I ride hunter/jumper/western. My friends ride dressage, and tease me about "riding with no contact", because i leave my horse's mouth alone. If they rode my horse like that, they wouldn't be in the saddle long.
I think you misunderstand what he's saying. He's talking about your average Joe rider who sees Big Name rider using spurs, etc, and thinks that's what creates balance and collection. It isn't. He also was only saying that unless your horse's shoulders are freely moving, his hind end cannot properly engage and there is no true push from behind or impulsion.
I think Mr Brannaman knows more about "true" dressage than at least half of the big name trainers/riders out there.
@1Lmaris are you saying buck brannaman doesnt know how to ride? watch his movie: then tell me.
When I first read abiscott this morning I almost got ???*&%. It was obvious that knew nothing about soft feel like 99% of all Dressage Riders that can't ride without their hands in the horses mouth. It is right if horse's head is elevated (nose head upside down) any horse will have "hollow back" and I agree! The difference is something that the writer never felt or experienced! Vetical flexion from the poll with a slack rein, thus the back rises and does not fall into hollow back,!
Sadly you misunderstand what he is saying. Learn to observe, listen, and think. He wears spurs, so clearly he isn't disregarding spurs, but only the improper use of them. He specifically refers to forcing the head DOWN-- a pleasure horse or reining horse fault (Dressage riders have rolkur for their sin). Again, you must learn to listen and watch. He never in this video mentions dressage. You only assumed he was talking about it.
It would be like me going back to my dressage friends and saying that the worst riders in Buck's clinic are what Buck is. Not true, either. There are terrible riders and trainers in EVERY discipline of riding. I hope to learn as much as I can from him and temper it with what I know of dressage, and continue to learn and grow as a rider.
@Irene6820 I feel the same way about "natural" horsemanship proponents. They come off like they alone know "the truth." They discount the huge contributions of other, more traditional horsemen like Col. d'Endrody, Rainer Klimke, William Steinkraus and, someone who constantly thought outside the box, the late, great Jimmy Williams, who unfortunately, unlike the others, did not commit his philosophy to writing. Really, I've found natural horsemanship proponents are the biggest snobs.
@MatthewBakke Buck Branaman seems to me just another flavor-of-the-month guru of the currently popular natural horsemanship movement, which dumbs riding down. You, on the other hand, have obviously been enjoying such watered-down Kool-Aid. You don't need to insult me to make your point, whatever that might be. In fact, your point gets obscured by your illogical assumption that I'm not informed about the world, as apparently evidenced by my lack of enthusiasm for Buck Branaman.
Im no western rider but Buck is using the same techniques that USED to be taught to all english riders before they started relying on artificial aids to crank the head in too many dressage horses are now stiff and overbent relying on a hard hand on the mouth to hold them in frame
@1Lmaris LOL...and that's why you can't find a dressage bridle these days that doesn't come with a flash attachment and a crank noseband. Cause modern dressage is all about the lightness. I always find it ironic that a sport that claims to be about invisible communication with the horse and infinitesimal aids has to be done with a crank noseband, 2" spurs and a 42" whip...you know, just for subtle reminders. I hate dressage snobs. They talk the talk but never seem to walk the walk.
@hannjenn Wasn't being a snide prick... and oh. I have insecurity? That's great... guess I'll have to do something about that. Didn't mean to come across... the way I must have. It's just TH-cam.
Maybe you should read less books and look at more reality. Why do you thing the FEI is still reworking its blood ruling wording for dressage competitions? If the horses werent regularly getting over use of the bits and spurs they wouldnt be getting injuries to cause bleeding - other than the occasional bit tongue and cut lip. I bet Bucks horses dont have that problem
@MikeThomasHorsemen I don't think you're doing Buck Branaman any favors with your fanatical love of him. It makes me think he must be a crank to attract someone so prone to idolatry.
Buck isn't a person who just joined along in the "natural horsemanship fad", he's been doing it for over 30 years but he got his fame when one woman decided to make a documentary on him, he didnt just follow the crowd. Get to understand him through his training and not just his documentary, his principles are very similar, if not, identical to classical dressage. Get your facts straight before you talk out of your ass, get educated.
@Irene6820 Can I marry you? x]