Don’t always agree with Bob but love that he has these conversations with those that he disagrees with…always learn something and leave open that I don’t know what I don’t know. He’s a gem.
Eli was a huge booster of forced regime change in Iraq. I used to argue with him on message boards about it decades ago. He was also a massive Backpack Rap fan and became infamous for a campfire freestyle that someone recorded in which he channelled the spirit of a dead Native American. He's a disaster.
Hi Robert, thank you for this important interview. I'm an Israeli, and I'm sad to say that Eli presents the usual right-wing Israeli point-of-view which focuses too much on the "there's no partner on the other side" talking point. This point of view is relatively easy to "prove", but it promises a stagnation, and as a result - a deterioration which eventually leads to what happened on October 7. I believe that we need to peruse peace relentlessly and negotiate with anyone. the problem now is that Hamas indeed "achieved" the status of being non-negotiable... I mean, what Israeli leader will ever sit down and talk with people who planned and executed such a horrible terror attack? Man, this is very depressing...
A genuine question with no "gotcha" attached. Why would Israel ever take any terms from the Palestinians period? They have a pretty strong hold on the region, sitting down and negotiating with the Palestinians, Hamas or no, they only stand to lose power and/or land, I've never really seen any reason why Israel would ever bother trying to negotiate terms when they are so much more on the front foot compared to Palestine.
@Bat0541 In theory, the answer is "for peace". The problem is that Palestinian leadership, and a large segment of their population, have no interest in having peace with Israel. They only want to dismantle Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.
@@Bat0541 Hi there! Well, the reason is simple: we can't go on like this. the Palestinians deserve independence and self governance, and the two-states solution is the only solution in which Israel can continue its existence as a Jewish and democratic state (... it is becoming less and less democratic). Our treatment of the Palestinians is a disgrace. it's not an Apartheid like many ppl claim, but the situation in the west-bank it is not far from apartheid. such a situation in not sustainable.
The material conditions don't explain this level of hatred for Jews, just like the material conditions of Germany didn't in the 40's. Germany is also a good example of such ideological causes can be rehabilitated over time. Such a venture would take a worldwide effort. The real crisis of humanity here is an ideological one, the material conditions are easy to solve by comparison. Again, you can't just boil this down to material conditions, Gaza could be the richest country in the world, and Hamas would still want to eradicate the Jews. I also think much of this is in fact Hamas's business model and how the leaders became so wealthy, off the deaths of Gazans, ofc Hamas wants to keep them miserable. I think a lot what we're seeing on the left is a result of cognitive dissonance. For so long I think there has been a sort of fetishization of Hamas, seeing them a freedom fighters. Then the 7th happens and there are at least two ways to reconcile, either see Hamas for what they are, or go further in hate for the Jews.
Yes, I agree. There are hundreds of much poorer countries in the world... Yet we see no antisemitism, no warlike barbaric behaviors. It has little to do with the material conditions.
@@DestroManiak Were the Jews actually the cause of the problems in Germany in the 40s? No, call it propaganda if want instead of ideology, it wasn't material conditions or legitimate causal connections. Antisemitism is baked into Islam, it isn't hard to see how that can get dialed up to 11. I don't think it's anti-Muslim to point that out. There is also a certain amount of antisemitism baked into the new testament by the way, but it doesn't directly call for the genocide of Jews, it's more subtle. I don't buy into materialism or idealism, our motivations are a result of an interplay between ideology and material conditions. You'll never solve the problem in the middle east solely through a materialist lense.
'He's not Mandela...' Which Mandela? The human rights icon or the terrorist? Guess it depends on which version of history most supports ones own conclusions.
In 1916 Irish dissidents launched the Easter rising, that failed rebellion saw the people of Dublin spit the rebels out of the city because of the carnage the the rising caused, but the execution of the rebels was so abhorrent to the people of Ireland that enough of the population sided with the IRA that the war of independence was successful. Hamas did unforgivable things but, this retaliation is not just turning Palestinians or Arabs in general against Israel but significant parts of the world not connected to the conflict. I’m begging the Israeli government to distinguish the innocent children women and men of Palestine, from the people who carried out the atrocities of Hamas. Isreal is not punishing those responsible, it is taking it’s justified agony and rage on a oppressed population, this is not justice
On the topic of Indignity, i think we can claim, with some justification, that the Jews lived in dhimmitude for centuries and yet never or extremely rarely engaged in the barbaric behavior we saw on Oct 7, 2023. And before that, we saw ethnic cleansing of a million Jews from 17 Arab countries (not to mention millions of xtians). And at some point, we have to establish equal standards. Another root cause in the conflict and the inability to find a solution.
It's almost like there are cultural, religious, and ideological roots to contend with, not just that they don't have x, y, z things in Gaza. The lesson we learned from ww2 is that we are human, and that we can all fall victim to venomous ideology, and it should go without saying, Palestinians are just as human. That said, look at Germany today, antisemitism way down I would say. The Germans had to earn the world's trust before we would recognize their independence. There is also the failed project to bring democracy to Afghanistan/Iraq, but I think perhaps who cares if Gaza/WB is democratic, let's start with not genocidal, baby steps, and the world needs to be more involved, it can't be just Israel or the USA, I think rehabilitation is needed, like it was needed in Germany, you wouldn't just give the Germans a state after ww2, that would be insane, for sure the ideology would reconstitute itself, and we know it will in Gaza if we keep trying to appease Hamas.
And the Palestinians experienced the horrors of the Nakba, which Israeli officials publicly stated they intend to unleash on the Palestinian civilians in Gaza: Nakba.2
are you familiar with the "Jewish Nabka?" where 1 million Jews were essentially ethnically cleansed/ exiled from 17 Arab countries from the late 40s through the early 80s? along with millions of Christians? @@karen-qm7og If israel is ethnic cleansing, they suck at it, since there are now 3x arab/ Muslims in Israel as there were 75 years ago. While, at the same time, there are 99% fewer jews in ALL of the middle east outside of Israel.
@@jabeles1 One Nakba does not justify another. Again, there are numerous Jews in the US and Israel that explicitly and publicly condemn Israel's bombing. Not in My Name. Never Again.
No one said it did. But that, along with 2 millennia of genocide, persecution, and humiliation might help 'explain the conditions' which led to the reestablishment of the state of Israel (that all Arab states tried to annihilate in a second genocide in almost as many years) @@karen-qm7og
@36:20 “There is no way Hamas salutes and says yes sir” (Further along): “There is no cruelty gene, etc etc” Putting aside Hamas are fundamentalists who have a VERY different idea of death, afterlife, success, martyrdom? They have a completely different idea about the human cost vs what is to be gained in the mortal world and fictional world. Some Hamas and supportive Palestinian hardliners might use non-Muslim’s consideration of mortal existence as specifically precious, as ammunition in their propaganda against outsiders. I’m sure it is pretty useful in getting support from other activist groups around the world (even when other activist groups like LGBTQ+ aren’t remotely acceptable to them). Fantastic conversation. You can come away from this one as conflicted as before you went in… but their certainly is a lot to learn or be reminded of from your guys’ discussion. Thanks for a great episode
You make excellent points. I think the importance of the Hamas fundamentalist Jihad religious beliefs needs to be given more prominence in better understanding their actions and behavior. Most Westerners do not grok this and thus assign cause to past treatment and conditions only.
Amazingly entire Middle East is now united and demands a state for Palestinians. Striker carrier group is not deterring anyone. Biden's meeting was cancelled by Jordan and Egypt, as there is nothing to talk about, while Saudi are making phone calls to Iran to discuss Gaza. Israel lack of concern for civilians is very damaging and will have consequences, in my opinion.
"Israel lack of concern for civilians is very damaging and will have consequences, in my opinion." This is true, but Israel fights the "PR battle" far better than the Palestinians do anyway, especially with Hamas as the most direct representation they have. Any damage done by Israeli civilian disregard will more than likely be outdone by acts committed by Hamas, at least that is how I see it playing out.
Lack of concern for civilians? Are you f-ing KIDDING me? If the civilian presence means you can't fight those who deliberately target civilians and then hide behind their own, there's literally no way to fight back. Israel takes EXTRAORDINARY efforts to minimize civilian casualties while Hamas seeks to maximize them. I am appalled that thinking like yours even exists.
"Ayyyckshuuually from the river to the sea doesn't mean something bad..". OK now explain how "arbeit macht frei" was really an inspirational quote. It's disingenuous to ascribe innocence to the same group of people who chant this mantra (and "there is only one solution, intifada revolution") who also screech about racist/sexist/bigoted "dog whistles" over terms as innocuous as "master bedroom" and "history".
This interview is the greatest example why west asians can never look to the west for salvation. The solution for west asian problems can only come from west asia.
For Westerners, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a morality play. Asking you, where do your own personal theoretical beliefs in humankind take you? This is how you will judge the actions and the statements made by each side. But at its heart, it it is a futile piece of abstract entertainment, as if reading a tragedy. A story without an obvious and ultimately 'righteous' or cathartic ending. You chose your side and let the play...play itself out. For everyone is helpless to maintain any kind of a moral high ground. As you're always let down by your chosen sides 'purported' inhuman actions. Which, having taken sides... you will now chose to ignore. There is no possibility of a compromise, no settlement, or a chance at a lasting Peace. In any other historical period, these two 'ideological forces' would just have to fight it out. But that is unacceptable in the West. So this endless cycle of hatred and bloodshed, is 'ordained' to continue indefinitely... by the noble nations of the democratic West. In this dispute between two fanatical tribes in an endless confrontation over a desert, and the tenets of a make-believe deity - they're no winners. Except for those Westerners that are able to easily pick-sides and therefore, 'live off' the disgust and hatred. Which seems to be a surprising majority of people?
13:42 Eli: "My people, the Jews" Well... there you have it. This is the core position and everything else is ad hoc justification of this core The Jews are his people and in this their time of crisis he is going to rally on their behalf--and it is right and proper for him to do this Here's the irreconcilable gap. Robert approaches the situation from that of a third party and can afford a degree of detachment. But for Eli, this is the moment when he's being called to the plate
Self-identifying democracies really need to get religion out of politics and to stop basing statehood on ethnicity or religion. We are all chosen people. We are all equal.
We need to incentivize the Arab countries into helping the Palestinians get decent business leadership so there are sports cars for young men to aspire to buy and attract a nice girl. The Palestinian people have been sca-rewed by their wild swings between a death cult (Hamas) and the most financially corrupt leadership in the world (Fateh). It's incredible.
I think Bob and Eli ask the right question - "why is there an audience for this?". Part of the answer is that extreme nationalism and racial hatred appeal to the evil side of human beings, and we all have the capacity to be misled by that. I will acknowledge that it is easier to be moral when you are comfortable, but we cannot escape responsibility for our actions. If you find yourself cheering for Hamas, that's your fault, and it is something that you can change. In a similar way, I find arguments that blame the rise of Nazism on the Great Depression unconvincing. Too many Germans chose to side with Evil, because they were antisemitic, nationalistic and authoritarian in the first place. But we know that countries can change. There's no place for "getting payback for what happened to be my ancestors" in the modern world. Many Palestinians and Israelis, and I don't know what the respective proportions are, but the brutality of Hamas is truly one-sided, need a fundamental change in outlook, and I am not going to give them a pass because of the circumstances.
One more thing: if one wanted Palestinians and Israelis to actually work out a deal, they would stop ignoring the visceral, genocidal language used by Hamas and Palestinians and hold them to an equal moral standard. Its the racism of low expectations that infantilizes them while at the same time blaming Israel for virtually everything. Worst of all, it encourages bad behavior on both sides, which makes an already difficult solution more remote. If you love Palestinians, hold them to a higher standard as well. Ask what a "free Palestine" (from the river to the sea) means. Ask them if there will be Sharia or freedom for women, ethnic minorities, and homosexuals. Or even a modicum of free speech. Stop blathering expressions without thinking what they mean and how they're damaging prospects for peace.
Every leftist I know who wants a one state solution just wants a secular democratic non sectarian society where Israelis, palestinians, christians etc live in peace as equals. Maybe this is a fantasy at this point. It was certainly possible 30 or 40 years ago. Maybe its impossible now. But its certainly not genocidal to hold this position.
Robert, that was a heroic interview! thank you so much for pushing back continually and reasonably. fantastic work. I have not seen such a systematic and humane response to Israeli talking points during this conflict.
The constant rationalization of fundamental ultraviolence is precisely why it keeps happening. Hold them to a higher standard of behavior, if they wish to continue receiving funds, and they will respond as such.
At 14:10 it was clear that this guest is out of his depth. He is unaware that ANC bombed suburbs and train stations; Algerians bombed cafes; John Brown murdered every man woman and child; Toussaint L'Overture killed tens of thousands of men women and children to free the Haitian people. I forgive him his ignorance.
The one thing that stands out as disingenuous, is the comment that “from the river to the sea” does not mean what it means, or that… even more incredible, people on these marches just chant it because other people do… yeesh. No. There is most certainly an absolute rejection of Israel as an illegitimate colonial state, an abomination that must be ended. That is the tone of these marches… zero sum. Maybe you agree with that, maybe you don’t but be intellectually honest. that was dishonest.
Eli Lake is the type of jew who has a learnt persecution complex while he was never persecuted in his entire life... as an eastern european jew, who had faced discrimination and actual antisemitism, I find his victimhood stomach turning
This kind of honest conversation about ethics and means in this seemingly endless conflict is what the world needs and not smug flag-waving. I'm listening to this heated exchange comparing the use of terror by Israelis in 1948, about which Benny Morris has carefully reported, and Hamas terrorism. Put aside the egregiousness of the terror, I think both Wright and Lake could agree that the context is just about everything. Call the Israelis colonists (the history of all of humans), but, the 650,000(?) Israelis in 1948 were fighting for their existence with no place to go and trying to create defensible borders among local Arab villagers who had been engaging them in civil war for four months since the UN resolution and expecting what did occur, a declaration of war by their surrounding Arab states who wanted to destroy the new Israeli state and motivated by ethnic hatred. The context of Hamas terrorism is very different. It is the futile effort to destroy the Israeli state and worse, by doing so, continue the misery and perverse upbringing of Palestinian children and their children's children. We know that Palestinians in Gaza if they could speak freely would rid themselves of the Hamas yoke which is the cause of their economic and cultural misery.
Always enjoy the debate episodes. Still listening to the whole show but I had to comment about Eli's point differentiating what he calls intentionally spectacular violence by Hamas (ie. terrorism) and the bombing campaign by Israel. To me the phrase "shock and awe" comes to mind. Isn't shock and awe the same tactically as terrorism, but when you are the more powerful military force rather than a small insurgency?
The difference is shock and awe was aimed at military targets. Terrorism intentionally targets civilians. Intentions matter. It's why first degree murder and manslaughter have different sentences.
IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”. This is a public statement of intention. @@dommerdom
@@dommerdom The tactical intent actually is similar, in that the purpose of the attack is to create a spectacle to intimidate the enemy, rather than directly benefit from the material damage caused by the attack itself. This point is directly responsive to the statement made by Eli that prompted my comment. As for civilian deaths, I explicitly said they are not the exact same. Of course a conventional military attack does not target civilians.
13:35 Eli misses the obvious analogous comparison. The Native American fought against the invading Europeans, and killed and terrorized settlers. The Palestinian situation is another native population fighting against European invaders.
That's a gross oversimplification, serving neither case of history. The underlying reason as to why the Jewish people's home is the Promised Land is because of their _codified_ _continuity_ in and to the land; they have returned to it. The conquest of the Americas was the conquest of the "New World".
@alisaglem Well, you should at least be born there to be considered a native. The vast majority ofJews that came to Palestine were from Europe. If my memory is correct, there were only 10,000 when the Balfour Declaration was signed.
Interesting dialogue for sure, but I find it grotesque to talk about the situation of regime change, without first talking about the prison walls of the Gaza Strip, I mean with what authority or legitimacy can Israel make such claims? Greetings from Italy
@@stevecaldwell8740 I don't know what you call a place like Gaza in your area, walls guarded by towers, surveillance drones, controlled entrances, if this isn't the definition of prison, we're very close to it. The situation of the settlers is also absurd and extremely intrusive for Israel's neighbors, who rightly, as Bob says, has not actually recognized any of its own borders.
A lot of what the guy on the right said is true, but what he doesn't see is his attitude in general. When he says that the conditions on the West Bank were getting better he is acting like a warlord throwing a bone to a dog. You don't get to blackmail a whole people with living conditions, because they're fighting for their rights. You either give them the West Bank back, no strings attached or you give them the same rights as your citizens have. I can understand not giving the the right to vote in Israeli elections, because they would just outvote you, but you have to treat them like equals if you want to negotiate with them. I think Israel should back out to the 1967 borders and then 90% of the problems dissappear. I still don't understand why Israelis took control of the West Bank. BTW the 2 state solution is dying mostly because of the settlements.
A good discussion. How did Hamas recruit their martyrs in Gaza? Easy. Life in Gaza is misery. The people there are the post-colonial equivalent of Frantz Fanon's 'wretched of the earth'. Add radical Islamic ideology. The mixture produces a nightmare.
16:45 bob, at this timestamp you expose the incorrect understanding about "nakba" that misinformed everything you wrote and said about israel. All these years criticizing Israel, prior to this interview you thought the way Israel was founded involved Zionist aggression. They were so outnumbered, why would you think they would be aggressive unless they were getting attacked? And now that you understand a little better, if you are honest you will tell your audience your anti-zionism was based on this huge misunderstanding. As Lake explained, it was a war. The Jews were getting attacked. But you were talking as if the Jews were just as guilty as the Arabs who revolted in response to Jewish immigration. You learned something important at this timestamp, and if you're honest enough you should rethink everything based on it. This idea that Jews invaded someone's land is the very foundation of your anti-zionism. Are you too entrenched in your image as an anti-zionist? Or are you willing to tell everyone you figured out you were wrong. People like Finkelstein are too dug in, and they will never admit to themselves or anyone else that they got it wrong. But you are a practitioner.
I am sorry but in this conversation it was very disappointing, Bob is talking without knowing basic facts, historical issues and make justification about any Palestinian action and not giving any responsibility to their leaders. I also don't understand why rages about everything the other guy say. Better talk about Buddhism and other stuff that you better understand...
I don't really understand the guest's argument about the lack (if at all) of a Palestinian Mandela. This point, even if true, is somewhat irrelevant. It is not clear that liberation movements must have a Mandela figure to be morally justified. Obviously the recent actions of Hamas are well beyond the pale and morally unacceptable. But why think the only acceptable course of action is Mandela style non-violent resistance? The underlying assumption here is that unless one is or is following a Mandela-like figure, one is a morally reprehensible terrorist. But this is a false dichotomy. So, even if there are no Palestinian moderates (which is very likely false) it doesn't get the conclusion Eli seems to think it does. It's just one bad argument after another with this guy, plus trivial truths about how bad Hamas is.
A clumsy argument, but one can generously infer from it the importance of concerning oneself with the _means_ _by_ _which_ one resists. The Palestinians require reasonable representatives.
@@SacClass650Yes, that is the underlying question. By stressing the lack of a Mandela figure, the guest is, at least implicitly, taking a stand on this issue. He is saying that the only morally acceptable resistance is non-violent resistance. While this is obviously a morally acceptable form of resistance, it is not at all clear that it is the *only* acceptable form. So, I say again, the point is irrelevant.
How would you define a terrorist organization and then not being so bad? What other means are there besides violent resistance, I. E. Hamas or non violent like Mandela? I don't understand your argument. His name is Eli Lake btw.
I do not understand your first question. But in terms of the second, yes either resistance is violent or non-violent. That's a tautology. But surely there are some circumstances in which violent resistance is permissible. The question is what kind. The killing of innocents is never justified. But if, say, Ukraine blows up a Russian tank inside Ukraine, we don't think it's unjustified. Right? No one is saying "where is the Ukrainian Mandela?" @@alisaglem
Manifestation of a deeper cause... The conditions... Always places disproportionate responsibility on Jews on the one hand and infantilizes Palestinians and arabs on the other.
After camp david the peace process contimued, the us conceded that the pals had good points and altered a number of things, it was the israelis who then left taba, sharon then ended the peace talks.
In the context of war, I don't accept that 10/7 was extraordinarily violent. Even if the story of the beheadings or rape are true, are those acts really any different than dropping a nuke on a civilian city? Just because we have tools of war not available to those less sophisticated doesn't make us any less violent (as evidenced in our society).
Shit, just in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict 10/7 was more akin to an average occasional spike in violence more than anything "extraordinarily" violent.
Ignoring a huge factor - Islam. Seriously how can two intelligent people be so blind. Talking about history, the environment. Read the history of Islam
Really good discussion. I like how you end saying that you appreciate having the talk with someone who is arguing in good faith... so much easier to say with mickey gone now...
Wright has a soft spot in his heart for intransigents like Kaus and Lake. I don't think he wants to show them up. He's more like a wife who has the illusion to change her husbands character.
I'm sure there's some Native American Robert should give his home back to if he wants to be consistent. At least the Jews are from Israel at some point
Arab apologists are living in a parallel universe. Like naive backpackers, all you need to do is visit the area to have your illusions corrected. Let me know when you've grown up and are ready to have an adult conversation.
Eli, Robert is an arm chair moralist.. I am from the Miss. delta and understand how hard it is to make on the ground changes that satisfies all parties!! So easy to judge when you are not in the trenches!!!
The guest gave away the game when he referred to them as “subhuman”, and especially when he went on to say that the refusal to loudly profess agreement demonstrated moral bankruptcy. I suppose he thinks those who are morally bankrupt are also “sub-human”.
Could someone explain what goes behind a decision to drop a bomb (what type of bombs are there to drop too?) in a place or building in the Gaza strip? How does Israel gather intelligence that there is soldier there? or that it is a place for storing war resources? Are drones and databases capable of recognizing Hamas soldiers congregating or hiding? I've seen images of a while block being totally destroyed. There was at least one Hamas soldier in each building destroyed? Is one soldier/x number of civilians calculated or the count is simply put 'on the tab' of Hamas? What other conflict is comparable with this situation? Like Ukraine isn't. Civilians evacuate when the front line moves. Is it more like conflicts like drug cartels vs military/police in South American countries? Or favelas dominated by organized gangs?
So Eli is saying that the Nakba was an ordinary act of war and was to be expected? That seems absurd. It seems clear to me that it was an act of ethnic cleansing, not an attempt to defeat a military force. It seems pretty clear to me what the calculations were on the part of Zionists, and always have been, going back to the Iron Wall doctrine. Why can't they take responsibility for their clear motives and actions? Unfortunately, Eli does not seem to me to exemplify the scholarly/journalistic ethic. I would not trouble myself to watch or support any of his content. He lacks the character that I expect of any leader of discourse.
Wow, amazing, Rob. I guess you think those chants in Sydney are about exposing jews to laughing gas, or something. Who's to say? Moral relativism at its best. Grats.
There is no military solution to this political problem and Israel has never negotiated in good faith. They’ve never felt it necessary to negotiate away their ideal future of a greater Israel.
@@abbaeben6409 Bibi is an evil b@$terd. I think he deliberately ignored warnings about this event. It certainly is more than convenient that this happens when he is having serious political and legal problems. It's just too too strange that they didn't know anything at all about this attack.
@@davethebrahman9870 that is technically true. My point is that Bibi will be remembered as an utter failure. In order to hold political power, he put amateurs in charge of ministries and failed to accomplish his life’s work: keep eretz yisroel safe.
Watched the entire thing. Sorry, I call bull. They both are accusing Israel’s carefully measured responses to ongoing decades of acts of terrorism as somehow being “attacks on Palestine” or “the Palestinian people”. Completely dishonest phrasing on it’s face. The one side is 50 years of Arab peoples identifying as a tribe, the Philistines, which was literally wiped out of existence around 600 BC. And this movement of just five decades was started by an Egyptian terrorist agitator who was kicked out of Egypt, kicked out of Jordan, and then kicked out of Lebanon. And, those who falsely identify as being leaders of Philistine origin have demonstrated time and time again that if there was not an autonomously administrated zone (the so-called “Israel’s oppression”) those who are falsely identifying as leaders would take an unthinkable toll among the innocent children and non-combatants of their own families and people, using these shamelessly as human shields in a war to, as they themselves have indicated, commit genocide. Finally I’ll add that people of Arab origins in Israel, both in the regularly governed areas and in the semi- autonomous zones, enjoy from the Israeli government - so far as it is able to extend it’s influence - by far the most individual rights to life, liberty and property of any country in the middle east. By very far. What on earth has the nation of Israel been supposed to do for the last 50 years? The route they have taken has been absolutely the most humanitarian and ethical course under the circumstances.
Sideshow Bob strikes again. He diverts from reasonable claims by making assertions of ‘monologue’ and ‘production’, with the weaselly implication that the claims made by the guest are propaganda.
Calling Palestinians, who are fighting back against powerful tyrants like Israel and the USA, "terrorists" only empowers Israel's and the USA's genocidal rhetoric and actions. Palestinians (and Syrians) have a right to fight back against their oppressors, but not according to genocidal Americans and Israelis, of course.
maybe they shouldnt be terrorists if they dont want to be called that. LOL. its okay for them to be terrorists, but you draw the line at calling them as such...
@@DestroManiak Well......going back to the comment above about native americans would you say that they were terrorists? Mind you I'm not in favor of terrorism. It's bad all the way around for everybody involved and doesn't ever lead to the desired outcome.
@@olewetdog6254 Terrorism is attempting to achieve political or military goals by terrorizing, demoralizing the opposing side without a significant military impact. You can contrast that to an actual war between militaries. Everything Hamas does fits squarely into the definition of terrorism. You may hold the opinion that terrorism is sometimes justifiable, what I take issue with is refusing to call terrorism terrorism because you sympathize with them. I dont know much about native americans. Maybe they were terrorists, maybe they werent, but this is an objective distinction. Maybe their acts were justifiable, maybe they werent, this is a subjective distinction.
The section about the 31:00 mark is an example. The myth that the Palestinians were offered a state and didn't accept. They were offered $h!t. NOW...they. probably should have taken the $h!t. But it wasn't a state and shouldn't be labeled as that. The section at the end about settlements in the west bank is another. Eli is just full of bull.
@olewetdog6254 they were offered a state in 1948 when Israel was created, they rejected it then, fought multiple wars and got less over time. And they are still salty and mad about it. They are the rot, the cancer, the problem. If they were the Kurds in Iraq they would have happily taken the land and built to live and prosper, but not with that shit tier arab/islamist Muslim supremacist streak.
@@davethebrahman9870 How about around 38:00 implying there was wide spread celebration in the West for the killing of Israeli civilians. That is unadulterated right-wing propaganda. The same 5 examples get brought up over and over and over again.
Could you give an example? His name is Eli Lake and there is really no need to throw big accusations without providing evidence. Kinda loses the essence of your argument.
This is not a debate, or even a proper discussion. Bob's conjuring more strawmen out of thin air, like a wizard of Oz, faster than Eli can finish a point.
![A Debate on Israel-Palestine | Robert Wright & Bret Stephens [The Wright Show]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Mcjpxmczv8/mqdefault.jpg)
The classic "Atrocities against civilians are inexcusable, but if my side does it there was a really good reason."
Don’t always agree with Bob but love that he has these conversations with those that he disagrees with…always learn something and leave open that I don’t know what I don’t know. He’s a gem.
My thoughts exactly
Same goes for Eli for that matter.
@@adamjones1982 I would agree
Good for you keeping this discussion public. I’m a NonZero subscriber but think this is important for all to hear.
Eli was a huge booster of forced regime change in Iraq. I used to argue with him on message boards about it decades ago. He was also a massive Backpack Rap fan and became infamous for a campfire freestyle that someone recorded in which he channelled the spirit of a dead Native American. He's a disaster.
Hi Robert, thank you for this important interview. I'm an Israeli, and I'm sad to say that Eli presents the usual right-wing Israeli point-of-view
which focuses too much on the "there's no partner on the other side" talking point.
This point of view is relatively easy to "prove", but it promises a stagnation, and as a result - a deterioration which eventually leads to what happened on October 7.
I believe that we need to peruse peace relentlessly and negotiate with anyone. the problem now is that Hamas indeed "achieved" the status of being non-negotiable... I mean, what Israeli leader will ever sit down and talk with people who planned and executed such a horrible terror attack?
Man, this is very depressing...
A genuine question with no "gotcha" attached. Why would Israel ever take any terms from the Palestinians period? They have a pretty strong hold on the region, sitting down and negotiating with the Palestinians, Hamas or no, they only stand to lose power and/or land, I've never really seen any reason why Israel would ever bother trying to negotiate terms when they are so much more on the front foot compared to Palestine.
@Bat0541 In theory, the answer is "for peace". The problem is that Palestinian leadership, and a large segment of their population, have no interest in having peace with Israel. They only want to dismantle Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.
@@Bat0541 Hi there! Well, the reason is simple: we can't go on like this. the Palestinians deserve independence and self governance, and the two-states solution is the only solution in which Israel can continue its existence as a Jewish and democratic state (... it is becoming less and less democratic). Our treatment of the Palestinians is a disgrace. it's not an Apartheid like many ppl claim, but the situation in the west-bank it is not far from apartheid. such a situation in not sustainable.
The material conditions don't explain this level of hatred for Jews, just like the material conditions of Germany didn't in the 40's. Germany is also a good example of such ideological causes can be rehabilitated over time. Such a venture would take a worldwide effort. The real crisis of humanity here is an ideological one, the material conditions are easy to solve by comparison. Again, you can't just boil this down to material conditions, Gaza could be the richest country in the world, and Hamas would still want to eradicate the Jews. I also think much of this is in fact Hamas's business model and how the leaders became so wealthy, off the deaths of Gazans, ofc Hamas wants to keep them miserable.
I think a lot what we're seeing on the left is a result of cognitive dissonance. For so long I think there has been a sort of fetishization of Hamas, seeing them a freedom fighters. Then the 7th happens and there are at least two ways to reconcile, either see Hamas for what they are, or go further in hate for the Jews.
Yes, I agree. There are hundreds of much poorer countries in the world... Yet we see no antisemitism, no warlike barbaric behaviors. It has little to do with the material conditions.
Agree completely. Well said.
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 powerty in other countries arent directly due to israel as is the case with palestine tho...
Oh boy, vacuous drivel.
@@DestroManiak Were the Jews actually the cause of the problems in Germany in the 40s? No, call it propaganda if want instead of ideology, it wasn't material conditions or legitimate causal connections.
Antisemitism is baked into Islam, it isn't hard to see how that can get dialed up to 11. I don't think it's anti-Muslim to point that out. There is also a certain amount of antisemitism baked into the new testament by the way, but it doesn't directly call for the genocide of Jews, it's more subtle.
I don't buy into materialism or idealism, our motivations are a result of an interplay between ideology and material conditions. You'll never solve the problem in the middle east solely through a materialist lense.
Thumbs up to having Eli back for Deep State convo.
💯 It’s good that this podcast gives varying viewpoints in a civil way
'He's not Mandela...' Which Mandela? The human rights icon or the terrorist? Guess it depends on which version of history most supports ones own conclusions.
In 1916 Irish dissidents launched the Easter rising, that failed rebellion saw the people of Dublin spit the rebels out of the city because of the carnage the the rising caused, but the execution of the rebels was so abhorrent to the people of Ireland that enough of the population sided with the IRA that the war of independence was successful.
Hamas did unforgivable things but, this retaliation is not just turning Palestinians or Arabs in general against Israel but significant parts of the world not connected to the conflict. I’m begging the Israeli government to distinguish the innocent children women and men of Palestine, from the people who carried out the atrocities of Hamas. Isreal is not punishing those responsible, it is taking it’s justified agony and rage on a oppressed population, this is not justice
On the topic of Indignity, i think we can claim, with some justification, that the Jews lived in dhimmitude for centuries and yet never or extremely rarely engaged in the barbaric behavior we saw on Oct 7, 2023. And before that, we saw ethnic cleansing of a million Jews from 17 Arab countries (not to mention millions of xtians). And at some point, we have to establish equal standards. Another root cause in the conflict and the inability to find a solution.
It's almost like there are cultural, religious, and ideological roots to contend with, not just that they don't have x, y, z things in Gaza.
The lesson we learned from ww2 is that we are human, and that we can all fall victim to venomous ideology, and it should go without saying, Palestinians are just as human. That said, look at Germany today, antisemitism way down I would say. The Germans had to earn the world's trust before we would recognize their independence. There is also the failed project to bring democracy to Afghanistan/Iraq, but I think perhaps who cares if Gaza/WB is democratic, let's start with not genocidal, baby steps, and the world needs to be more involved, it can't be just Israel or the USA, I think rehabilitation is needed, like it was needed in Germany, you wouldn't just give the Germans a state after ww2, that would be insane, for sure the ideology would reconstitute itself, and we know it will in Gaza if we keep trying to appease Hamas.
And the Palestinians experienced the horrors of the Nakba, which Israeli officials publicly stated they intend to unleash on the Palestinian civilians in Gaza: Nakba.2
are you familiar with the "Jewish Nabka?" where 1 million Jews were essentially ethnically cleansed/ exiled from 17 Arab countries from the late 40s through the early 80s? along with millions of Christians? @@karen-qm7og If israel is ethnic cleansing, they suck at it, since there are now 3x arab/ Muslims in Israel as there were 75 years ago. While, at the same time, there are 99% fewer jews in ALL of the middle east outside of Israel.
@@jabeles1 One Nakba does not justify another. Again, there are numerous Jews in the US and Israel that explicitly and publicly condemn Israel's bombing. Not in My Name. Never Again.
No one said it did. But that, along with 2 millennia of genocide, persecution, and humiliation might help 'explain the conditions' which led to the reestablishment of the state of Israel (that all Arab states tried to annihilate in a second genocide in almost as many years) @@karen-qm7og
@36:20
“There is no way Hamas salutes and says yes sir”
(Further along):
“There is no cruelty gene, etc etc”
Putting aside Hamas are fundamentalists who have a VERY different idea of death, afterlife, success, martyrdom? They have a completely different idea about the human cost vs what is to be gained in the mortal world and fictional world.
Some Hamas and supportive Palestinian hardliners might use non-Muslim’s consideration of mortal existence as specifically precious, as ammunition in their propaganda against outsiders. I’m sure it is pretty useful in getting support from other activist groups around the world (even when other activist groups like LGBTQ+ aren’t remotely acceptable to them).
Fantastic conversation. You can come away from this one as conflicted as before you went in… but their certainly is a lot to learn or be reminded of from your guys’ discussion. Thanks for a great episode
You make excellent points. I think the importance of the Hamas fundamentalist Jihad religious beliefs needs to be given more prominence in better understanding their actions and behavior. Most Westerners do not grok this and thus assign cause to past treatment and conditions only.
Amazingly entire Middle East is now united and demands a state for Palestinians. Striker carrier group is not deterring anyone. Biden's meeting was cancelled by Jordan and Egypt, as there is nothing to talk about, while Saudi are making phone calls to Iran to discuss Gaza. Israel lack of concern for civilians is very damaging and will have consequences, in my opinion.
"Israel lack of concern for civilians is very damaging and will have consequences, in my opinion."
This is true, but Israel fights the "PR battle" far better than the Palestinians do anyway, especially with Hamas as the most direct representation they have. Any damage done by Israeli civilian disregard will more than likely be outdone by acts committed by Hamas, at least that is how I see it playing out.
Lack of concern for civilians? Are you f-ing KIDDING me? If the civilian presence means you can't fight those who deliberately target civilians and then hide behind their own, there's literally no way to fight back. Israel takes EXTRAORDINARY efforts to minimize civilian casualties while Hamas seeks to maximize them. I am appalled that thinking like yours even exists.
"Ayyyckshuuually from the river to the sea doesn't mean something bad..". OK now explain how "arbeit macht frei" was really an inspirational quote. It's disingenuous to ascribe innocence to the same group of people who chant this mantra (and "there is only one solution, intifada revolution") who also screech about racist/sexist/bigoted "dog whistles" over terms as innocuous as "master bedroom" and "history".
This interview is the greatest example why west asians can never look to the west for salvation. The solution for west asian problems can only come from west asia.
"That's not a Mandela" Eli Lake says. He does know what Mandela and the ANC were heavily implicated in violent actions?
I guess Eli never heard of slave revolts.
A conversation that highlights the importance of the moral high ground in local debate and national conflict
For Westerners, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a morality play.
Asking you, where do your own personal theoretical beliefs in humankind take you?
This is how you will judge the actions and the statements made by each side.
But at its heart, it it is a futile piece of abstract entertainment, as if reading a tragedy.
A story without an obvious and ultimately 'righteous' or cathartic ending.
You chose your side and let the play...play itself out.
For everyone is helpless to maintain any kind of a moral high ground.
As you're always let down by your chosen sides 'purported' inhuman actions.
Which, having taken sides... you will now chose to ignore.
There is no possibility of a compromise, no settlement, or a chance at a lasting Peace.
In any other historical period, these two 'ideological forces' would just have to fight it out.
But that is unacceptable in the West. So this endless cycle of hatred and bloodshed,
is 'ordained' to continue indefinitely... by the noble nations of the democratic West.
In this dispute between two fanatical tribes in an endless confrontation over a desert,
and the tenets of a make-believe deity - they're no winners.
Except for those Westerners that are able to easily pick-sides and therefore,
'live off' the disgust and hatred. Which seems to be a surprising majority of people?
13:42 Eli: "My people, the Jews"
Well... there you have it. This is the core position and everything else is ad hoc justification of this core
The Jews are his people and in this their time of crisis he is going to rally on their behalf--and it is right and proper for him to do this
Here's the irreconcilable gap. Robert approaches the situation from that of a third party and can afford a degree of detachment. But for Eli, this is the moment when he's being called to the plate
And thats the core of politics. The jews are just making it obvious at this point.
Self-identifying democracies really need to get religion out of politics and to stop basing statehood on ethnicity or religion. We are all chosen people. We are all equal.
We need to incentivize the Arab countries into helping the Palestinians get decent business leadership so there are sports cars for young men to aspire to buy and attract a nice girl. The Palestinian people have been sca-rewed by their wild swings between a death cult (Hamas) and the most financially corrupt leadership in the world (Fateh). It's incredible.
Why not directly " incentivize " the Palestinians. Sports cars and hot girls you say ? THAT'S YOUR ANSWER ?
@@HusamSimaan They need real infrastructure, and life aspirations. They're in thrall to a literal death cult called Hamas.
I think Bob and Eli ask the right question - "why is there an audience for this?". Part of the answer is that extreme nationalism and racial hatred appeal to the evil side of human beings, and we all have the capacity to be misled by that. I will acknowledge that it is easier to be moral when you are comfortable, but we cannot escape responsibility for our actions. If you find yourself cheering for Hamas, that's your fault, and it is something that you can change. In a similar way, I find arguments that blame the rise of Nazism on the Great Depression unconvincing. Too many Germans chose to side with Evil, because they were antisemitic, nationalistic and authoritarian in the first place. But we know that countries can change. There's no place for "getting payback for what happened to be my ancestors" in the modern world. Many Palestinians and Israelis, and I don't know what the respective proportions are, but the brutality of Hamas is truly one-sided, need a fundamental change in outlook, and I am not going to give them a pass because of the circumstances.
Finally, Bob talks to a sane person with an unbroken ethical compass.
"Neocon" and "ethical compass" are an oxymoron.
A very solid debate. Good to see people actually engage with each other's points rather than shouting from their soupbox or mouthing tired platitudes.
One more thing: if one wanted Palestinians and Israelis to actually work out a deal, they would stop ignoring the visceral, genocidal language used by Hamas and Palestinians and hold them to an equal moral standard. Its the racism of low expectations that infantilizes them while at the same time blaming Israel for virtually everything. Worst of all, it encourages bad behavior on both sides, which makes an already difficult solution more remote. If you love Palestinians, hold them to a higher standard as well. Ask what a "free Palestine" (from the river to the sea) means. Ask them if there will be Sharia or freedom for women, ethnic minorities, and homosexuals. Or even a modicum of free speech. Stop blathering expressions without thinking what they mean and how they're damaging prospects for peace.
Every leftist I know who wants a one state solution just wants a secular democratic non sectarian society where Israelis, palestinians, christians etc live in peace as equals. Maybe this is a fantasy at this point. It was certainly possible 30 or 40 years ago. Maybe its impossible now. But its certainly not genocidal to hold this position.
Theocracy and democracy are incompatible. Religion has no place in a democratic government. @@Alex-vo6uo
Robert, that was a heroic interview! thank you so much for pushing back continually and reasonably. fantastic work. I have not seen such a systematic and humane response to Israeli talking points during this conflict.
Really enjoyed the conversation. I learned things
The constant rationalization of fundamental ultraviolence is precisely why it keeps happening. Hold them to a higher standard of behavior, if they wish to continue receiving funds, and they will respond as such.
Great conversation. Thank you.
This is exactly the conversation I have been looking for. Thank you
At 14:10 it was clear that this guest is out of his depth. He is unaware that ANC bombed suburbs and train stations; Algerians bombed cafes; John Brown murdered every man woman and child; Toussaint L'Overture killed tens of thousands of men women and children to free the Haitian people. I forgive him his ignorance.
Bob 🔥🔥🔥
Great debate thanks
The one thing that stands out as disingenuous, is the comment that “from the river to the sea” does not mean what it means, or that… even more incredible, people on these marches just chant it because other people do… yeesh. No. There is most certainly an absolute rejection of Israel as an illegitimate colonial state, an abomination that must be ended. That is the tone of these marches… zero sum. Maybe you agree with that, maybe you don’t but be intellectually honest. that was dishonest.
Eli Lake is the type of jew who has a learnt persecution complex while he was never persecuted in his entire life... as an eastern european jew, who had faced discrimination and actual antisemitism, I find his victimhood stomach turning
i miss mikey
Some acts cannot be justified by historical context. Any attempt to try is an insult. It is like justifying Charles Manson based on his childhood.
This kind of honest conversation about ethics and means in this seemingly endless conflict is what the world needs and not smug flag-waving. I'm listening to this heated exchange comparing the use of terror by Israelis in 1948, about which Benny Morris has carefully reported, and Hamas terrorism. Put aside the egregiousness of the terror, I think both Wright and Lake could agree that the context is just about everything. Call the Israelis colonists (the history of all of humans), but, the 650,000(?) Israelis in 1948 were fighting for their existence with no place to go and trying to create defensible borders among local Arab villagers who had been engaging them in civil war for four months since the UN resolution and expecting what did occur, a declaration of war by their surrounding Arab states who wanted to destroy the new Israeli state and motivated by ethnic hatred. The context of Hamas terrorism is very different. It is the futile effort to destroy the Israeli state and worse, by doing so, continue the misery and perverse upbringing of Palestinian children and their children's children. We know that Palestinians in Gaza if they could speak freely would rid themselves of the Hamas yoke which is the cause of their economic and cultural misery.
Thanks for trying, Bob.
10k USD per hostage AND an apartment? Bolster their roots much?
Condition of the West Bank is getting worse. But it’s Hamas that attacked. Leadership matters.
Bob offering one of the few level-headed takes out there
The subjugation of post Civil War Blacks doesn't compare to that of Gazans.
Always enjoy the debate episodes. Still listening to the whole show but I had to comment about Eli's point differentiating what he calls intentionally spectacular violence by Hamas (ie. terrorism) and the bombing campaign by Israel. To me the phrase "shock and awe" comes to mind. Isn't shock and awe the same tactically as terrorism, but when you are the more powerful military force rather than a small insurgency?
I would add that bombs are an egregiously barbaric invention and result in devastating scales of casualties.
The difference is shock and awe was aimed at military targets. Terrorism intentionally targets civilians. Intentions matter. It's why first degree murder and manslaughter have different sentences.
In a word: no.
IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”. This is a public statement of intention. @@dommerdom
@@dommerdom The tactical intent actually is similar, in that the purpose of the attack is to create a spectacle to intimidate the enemy, rather than directly benefit from the material damage caused by the attack itself. This point is directly responsive to the statement made by Eli that prompted my comment. As for civilian deaths, I explicitly said they are not the exact same. Of course a conventional military attack does not target civilians.
13:35 Eli misses the obvious analogous comparison. The Native American fought against the invading Europeans, and killed and terrorized settlers. The Palestinian situation is another native population fighting against European invaders.
That's a gross oversimplification, serving neither case of history. The underlying reason as to why the Jewish people's home is the Promised Land is because of their _codified_ _continuity_ in and to the land; they have returned to it. The conquest of the Americas was the conquest of the "New World".
The Jews are native to those lands too.
But Jews were native too, albeit in smaller numbers. How far back are we allowed to go to establish "nativism"?
@@alisaglem the Jews that settled in Israel in 1948 were Ashkenazi Jews from Europe and Russia, not Arab Jews that were there thousands of years ago
@alisaglem Well, you should at least be born there to be considered a native. The vast majority ofJews that came to Palestine were from Europe. If my memory is correct, there were only 10,000 when the Balfour Declaration was signed.
100 Solid Gold, Best of the Best of the Internet.
Eli loves calling for regime change. Why not call for regime change in Israel?
They have elections. Palestinians don't. Quite simple.
Thank you robert you are on the right side of history.
Robert Wright is phenomenally dishonest here at 39 min. It's not a "few crazy professors". Either is he dishonest or ignorant.
Yep. Disappointed by Bob here. If he truly thinks it's just a few, then he hasn't been paying attention.
Hey this might just be an aesthetic thing but maybe next time Eli's on the pod you can ask him to rip a couple cigs instead of the vape? Cool
Interesting dialogue for sure, but I find it grotesque to talk about the situation of regime change, without first talking about the prison walls of the Gaza Strip, I mean with what authority or legitimacy can Israel make such claims?
Greetings from Italy
They aren’t prison walls. They’re border walls. Are Egypt also to blame for Gaza being a “prison”?
@@stevecaldwell8740 I don't know what you call a place like Gaza in your area, walls guarded by towers, surveillance drones, controlled entrances, if this isn't the definition of prison, we're very close to it.
The situation of the settlers is also absurd and extremely intrusive for Israel's neighbors, who rightly, as Bob says, has not actually recognized any of its own borders.
A lot of what the guy on the right said is true, but what he doesn't see is his attitude in general. When he says that the conditions on the West Bank were getting better he is acting like a warlord throwing a bone to a dog. You don't get to blackmail a whole people with living conditions, because they're fighting for their rights. You either give them the West Bank back, no strings attached or you give them the same rights as your citizens have. I can understand not giving the the right to vote in Israeli elections, because they would just outvote you, but you have to treat them like equals if you want to negotiate with them.
I think Israel should back out to the 1967 borders and then 90% of the problems dissappear. I still don't understand why Israelis took control of the West Bank.
BTW the 2 state solution is dying mostly because of the settlements.
A good discussion. How did Hamas recruit their martyrs in Gaza? Easy. Life in Gaza is misery. The people there are the post-colonial equivalent of Frantz Fanon's 'wretched of the earth'. Add radical Islamic ideology. The mixture produces a nightmare.
16:45 bob, at this timestamp you expose the incorrect understanding about "nakba" that misinformed everything you wrote and said about israel.
All these years criticizing Israel, prior to this interview you thought the way Israel was founded involved Zionist aggression.
They were so outnumbered, why would you think they would be aggressive unless they were getting attacked?
And now that you understand a little better, if you are honest you will tell your audience your anti-zionism was based on this huge misunderstanding.
As Lake explained, it was a war. The Jews were getting attacked.
But you were talking as if the Jews were just as guilty as the Arabs who revolted in response to Jewish immigration.
You learned something important at this timestamp, and if you're honest enough you should rethink everything based on it.
This idea that Jews invaded someone's land is the very foundation of your anti-zionism.
Are you too entrenched in your image as an anti-zionist? Or are you willing to tell everyone you figured out you were wrong.
People like Finkelstein are too dug in, and they will never admit to themselves or anyone else that they got it wrong.
But you are a practitioner.
I am sorry but in this conversation it was very disappointing, Bob is talking without knowing basic facts, historical issues and make justification about any Palestinian action and not giving any responsibility to their leaders. I also don't understand why rages about everything the other guy say. Better talk about Buddhism and other stuff that you better understand...
I don't really understand the guest's argument about the lack (if at all) of a Palestinian Mandela. This point, even if true, is somewhat irrelevant. It is not clear that liberation movements must have a Mandela figure to be morally justified. Obviously the recent actions of Hamas are well beyond the pale and morally unacceptable. But why think the only acceptable course of action is Mandela style non-violent resistance? The underlying assumption here is that unless one is or is following a Mandela-like figure, one is a morally reprehensible terrorist. But this is a false dichotomy. So, even if there are no Palestinian moderates (which is very likely false) it doesn't get the conclusion Eli seems to think it does. It's just one bad argument after another with this guy, plus trivial truths about how bad Hamas is.
A clumsy argument, but one can generously infer from it the importance of concerning oneself with the _means_ _by_ _which_ one resists. The Palestinians require reasonable representatives.
@@SacClass650Yes, that is the underlying question. By stressing the lack of a Mandela figure, the guest is, at least implicitly, taking a stand on this issue. He is saying that the only morally acceptable resistance is non-violent resistance. While this is obviously a morally acceptable form of resistance, it is not at all clear that it is the *only* acceptable form. So, I say again, the point is irrelevant.
How would you define a terrorist organization and then not being so bad? What other means are there besides violent resistance, I. E. Hamas or non violent like Mandela? I don't understand your argument. His name is Eli Lake btw.
I do not understand your first question. But in terms of the second, yes either resistance is violent or non-violent. That's a tautology. But surely there are some circumstances in which violent resistance is permissible. The question is what kind. The killing of innocents is never justified. But if, say, Ukraine blows up a Russian tank inside Ukraine, we don't think it's unjustified. Right? No one is saying "where is the Ukrainian Mandela?" @@alisaglem
There can be no Mandela figure because theres no one to brow beat the Israelis into accepting the Palestinian position.
Manifestation of a deeper cause... The conditions... Always places disproportionate responsibility on Jews on the one hand and infantilizes Palestinians and arabs on the other.
Yuk, with folks like this US foreign policy makes more sense. I wouldn’t feel comfortable even letting him dog sit.
I wish you would have @scotthortonshow on. He has no allegiances.
After camp david the peace process contimued, the us conceded that the pals had good points and altered a number of things, it was the israelis who then left taba, sharon then ended the peace talks.
In the context of war, I don't accept that 10/7 was extraordinarily violent. Even if the story of the beheadings or rape are true, are those acts really any different than dropping a nuke on a civilian city? Just because we have tools of war not available to those less sophisticated doesn't make us any less violent (as evidenced in our society).
Shit, just in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict 10/7 was more akin to an average occasional spike in violence more than anything "extraordinarily" violent.
Honestly pictured Eli with more hair
Ignoring a huge factor - Islam. Seriously how can two intelligent people be so blind. Talking about history, the environment. Read the history of Islam
What a waste of time. How many roads?
Look its eli, the guy who had the hubris to think he could teach Finkelstein a thing or two!
Really good discussion. I like how you end saying that you appreciate having the talk with someone who is arguing in good faith... so much easier to say with mickey gone now...
Wright has a soft spot in his heart for intransigents like Kaus and Lake. I don't think he wants to show them up. He's more like a wife who has the illusion to change her husbands character.
I'm sure there's some Native American Robert should give his home back to if he wants to be consistent. At least the Jews are from Israel at some point
Eli Lake...as absent factual argumentation as ever....aside from the the tactic of denying all facts that others present him with.
Arab apologists are living in a parallel universe.
Like naive backpackers, all you need to do is visit the area to have your illusions corrected.
Let me know when you've grown up and are ready to have an adult conversation.
This guy Eli doesn’t seem biased at all. (What’s the emoji for sarcasm?)
Eli, Robert is an arm chair moralist.. I am from the Miss. delta and understand how hard it is to make on the ground changes that satisfies all parties!! So easy to judge when you are not in the trenches!!!
The way Eli kept dodging the questions regarding conditions that created to Hamas was telling.
Norman Finkelstein
The guest gave away the game when he referred to them as “subhuman”, and especially when he went on to say that the refusal to loudly profess agreement demonstrated moral bankruptcy. I suppose he thinks those who are morally bankrupt are also “sub-human”.
Great episode. But Wright is totally wrong on this topic
Could someone explain what goes behind a decision to drop a bomb (what type of bombs are there to drop too?) in a place or building in the Gaza strip? How does Israel gather intelligence that there is soldier there? or that it is a place for storing war resources? Are drones and databases capable of recognizing Hamas soldiers congregating or hiding?
I've seen images of a while block being totally destroyed. There was at least one Hamas soldier in each building destroyed? Is one soldier/x number of civilians calculated or the count is simply put 'on the tab' of Hamas? What other conflict is comparable with this situation? Like Ukraine isn't. Civilians evacuate when the front line moves. Is it more like conflicts like drug cartels vs military/police in South American countries? Or favelas dominated by organized gangs?
Blame the victim?
Eli won based on vape hits, thats not even close.
Bob just doesnt believe antisemitism exists
So Eli is saying that the Nakba was an ordinary act of war and was to be expected? That seems absurd. It seems clear to me that it was an act of ethnic cleansing, not an attempt to defeat a military force. It seems pretty clear to me what the calculations were on the part of Zionists, and always have been, going back to the Iron Wall doctrine. Why can't they take responsibility for their clear motives and actions?
Unfortunately, Eli does not seem to me to exemplify the scholarly/journalistic ethic. I would not trouble myself to watch or support any of his content. He lacks the character that I expect of any leader of discourse.
Islamic jihad
Wow, amazing, Rob. I guess you think those chants in Sydney are about exposing jews to laughing gas, or something. Who's to say? Moral relativism at its best. Grats.
There is no military solution to this political problem and Israel has never negotiated in good faith. They’ve never felt it necessary to negotiate away their ideal future of a greater Israel.
Robert Wright looks sad. Someone cheer him up. 😂
Regime change for Gaza and Israel would be positive for everyone.
You’re half right, Gaza is going to change.
No. He is totally right. When this is over there will be no more Hamas and Bibi will be remembered as a failure.
@@abbaeben6409 Bibi is an evil b@$terd. I think he deliberately ignored warnings about this event. It certainly is more than convenient that this happens when he is having serious political and legal problems. It's just too too strange that they didn't know anything at all about this attack.
@@abbaeben6409 That isn’t Israeli ‘regime change’, it’s democracy.
@@davethebrahman9870 that is technically true. My point is that Bibi will be remembered as an utter failure.
In order to hold political power, he put amateurs in charge of ministries and failed to accomplish his life’s work: keep eretz yisroel safe.
Watched the entire thing. Sorry, I call bull. They both are accusing Israel’s carefully measured responses to ongoing decades of acts of terrorism as somehow being “attacks on Palestine” or “the Palestinian people”. Completely dishonest phrasing on it’s face.
The one side is 50 years of Arab peoples identifying as a tribe, the Philistines, which was literally wiped out of existence around 600 BC. And this movement of just five decades was started by an Egyptian terrorist agitator who was kicked out of Egypt, kicked out of Jordan, and then kicked out of Lebanon. And, those who falsely identify as being leaders of Philistine origin have demonstrated time and time again that if there was not an autonomously administrated zone (the so-called “Israel’s oppression”) those who are falsely identifying as leaders would take an unthinkable toll among the innocent children and non-combatants of their own families and people, using these shamelessly as human shields in a war to, as they themselves have indicated, commit genocide.
Finally I’ll add that people of Arab origins in Israel, both in the regularly governed areas and in the semi- autonomous zones, enjoy from the Israeli government - so far as it is able to extend it’s influence - by far the most individual rights to life, liberty and property of any country in the middle east. By very far.
What on earth has the nation of Israel been supposed to do for the last 50 years? The route they have taken has been absolutely the most humanitarian and ethical course under the circumstances.
Sideshow Bob strikes again. He diverts from reasonable claims by making assertions of ‘monologue’ and ‘production’, with the weaselly implication that the claims made by the guest are propaganda.
Calling Palestinians, who are fighting back against powerful tyrants like Israel and the USA, "terrorists" only empowers Israel's and the USA's genocidal rhetoric and actions.
Palestinians (and Syrians) have a right to fight back against their oppressors, but not according to genocidal Americans and Israelis, of course.
maybe they shouldnt be terrorists if they dont want to be called that. LOL. its okay for them to be terrorists, but you draw the line at calling them as such...
WORD SALAD!
@@DestroManiak Well......going back to the comment above about native americans would you say that they were terrorists? Mind you I'm not in favor of terrorism. It's bad all the way around for everybody involved and doesn't ever lead to the desired outcome.
@@olewetdog6254 Terrorism is attempting to achieve political or military goals by terrorizing, demoralizing the opposing side without a significant military impact. You can contrast that to an actual war between militaries. Everything Hamas does fits squarely into the definition of terrorism. You may hold the opinion that terrorism is sometimes justifiable, what I take issue with is refusing to call terrorism terrorism because you sympathize with them.
I dont know much about native americans. Maybe they were terrorists, maybe they werent, but this is an objective distinction. Maybe their acts were justifiable, maybe they werent, this is a subjective distinction.
Zionist and free-market capitalist sure do gibber irrational and counterfactual garbage.
Robert Wright is basically saying that Israel should completely wipe out Gaza without realizing it.
how
This baldy guy is being caught by the host lying or spreading misinformation.
Could you give an example?
The section about the 31:00 mark is an example. The myth that the Palestinians were offered a state and didn't accept. They were offered $h!t. NOW...they. probably should have taken the $h!t. But it wasn't a state and shouldn't be labeled as that.
The section at the end about settlements in the west bank is another. Eli is just full of bull.
@olewetdog6254 they were offered a state in 1948 when Israel was created, they rejected it then, fought multiple wars and got less over time.
And they are still salty and mad about it. They are the rot, the cancer, the problem. If they were the Kurds in Iraq they would have happily taken the land and built to live and prosper, but not with that shit tier arab/islamist Muslim supremacist streak.
@@davethebrahman9870 How about around 38:00 implying there was wide spread celebration in the West for the killing of Israeli civilians. That is unadulterated right-wing propaganda. The same 5 examples get brought up over and over and over again.
@@olewetdog6254interesting so 1947 partition no good and the subsequent 4 also no good. Ok. What would be a good offer in your mind?
The host is sane and the guest is either totally brainwashed or prolific liar.
Could you give an example? His name is Eli Lake and there is really no need to throw big accusations without providing evidence. Kinda loses the essence of your argument.
brainwashed by who? Hes just picking his own side.
This is not a debate, or even a proper discussion. Bob's conjuring more strawmen out of thin air, like a wizard of Oz, faster than Eli can finish a point.
We must have listened to a different podcast. What I heard was Eli cutting Bob off 9 times out of 10.