TLDW: 10. Blokus, Carcassonne, Call to Glory 9. Castle, Elder Sign, Gemblo 8. DC Comics Deckbuilding Game, Quantum, Among The Stars 7. Thurn & Taxis, Race For the Galaxy, Heroes of Normandie 6. Thunderstone Advance, Rum & Bones, GOSU (Goblin Supremacy) 5. Ticket to Ride: Nordic Countries, Viceroy, On the Underground 4. Specter Ops, Dominion, The Hanging Gardens 3. Saint Petersburg, Lewis And Clark, Decent 2nd Edition 2. Imperial Settlers (Or 50 First dates 2nd ed), Level 7 Omega Protocol, Innovation Zombicide: Black Plague, Neuroshima Hex!, Le Harve
The audio quality with the new microphones is superb compared to the single-mic setup with the previous tech. One thing I missed with this top 10 compared to older ones was that the title/designer/etc. banner for each member's game choice only shows up briefly, whereas in previous top 10 videos the game banner was present pretty much continually throughout the discussion of each particular game before moving onto the next one. This previous format allowed easier video scrubbing to browse for the discussion of particular titles in the video or a given member's game choice for a certain number on the list. I do, however, really like the new LOOK of the title banners; it's cleaner and more sleek compared to the chunky ones in previous videos. I still am hoping that in future top 10 lists the title banners remain on the screen for longer periods of time before disappearing, similar to the above-mentioned, prior format. All--in-all, great stuff, Dice Tower. I'm a big fan of your content!
Single best constructive criticism in the comment section. You are absolutely right. I love watching the picture of the screen cover. It avoids needlessly stopping to look up how the cover would look like or quickly fast forwarding too. Lately, they've used some elements of the cover cropped into a small circular shape but that gave no idea how the game cover was like.
That and it would be great for the banner to show up as soon as Sam starts his choices. I don't know why, but he takes FOREVER to actually say what game he is talking about. I think he might be forgetting that people watching these vids do not have the encyclopedic knowledge of board games that he does.
Everyone forgets about Guild Hall. It's a fantastic game with two players. Far less chaotic. You're really focused on what your opponent has on the table and what they might do. Every exchange of cards is important. I love it. Hopefully it gets some more attention when the reprint/retirement comes out this summer.
The Dice Tower Aha! Good to know. I think the new printing will put it in the spotlight. I got to see it at Tokyo Game Market a couple weeks ago. The new artwork and theme is awesome.
New to your vids, just subbed! My GF and I were just watching your review of TWILIGHT STRUGGLE and I said, "I bet you could play 4 players where each player has a 'Minister of Defense'. He could only make certain 'military' decisions afforded him by the 'Prime Minister'. But when he does, he can decide whatever he wants.
I really like Citadels with 2 players. Quick and each player getting two characters is cool then there is the double bluffing with the assassin. Awesome.
my wife and I love DC comics deck builder. I agree 2 player is best however I don't agree with thinning the super villain deck. we often add more than the suggested amount. absolutely love that game.
I'm surprised none of you guys (specifically Tom) put Seasons on your lists. Mine would be: 1. Seasons (too much downtime and checking others tableaus) 2. Innovation. 3. Race for the Galaxy. 4.Carcassonne. 5. Elder Sign. 6. Arkham Horror. 7. Le Havre. 8. Dominion. 9. Imperial Settlers. 10. The Castles of Burgundy. Special mentions: -The War of the Ring. -The Lord of the Rings LCG. (although they can be played with up to 4 players, I think they were designed just for 2) Just my 2 cents.
1: Ghost stories with my girlfriend. We love playing this game where we both control 2 colours each. 2: Elder Sign. We love to play this game too. Played it once 6 players. Took FOREVER! 3: The Game, Love Letter / Loot Letter, Exploding Kittens, Other card games. I just lately found your channel and watched ALOT of your content and now have a huge list of more games to buy. You guys are going to make me bankrupt! :P
I think reviews that include thoughts on different player count might help a lot. We need lists like these, but short thoughts won't hurt the length of the video reviews. Thanks for this!
Would be great if there was an updated video on this subject. There are a heap on new two player, or multiplayer that can also be placed as two, released since. I play almost exclusively with my partner, so all these newer options are hard to sift through
Sam, even though they gave you grief, I think I've come to the same conclusion as you regarding Descent and also Imperial Assault. I've tried playing a campaign in both, and they both crashed and burned. The group was just not having fun. I've often thought that playing head to head would be the way to go. At max I'd go with a group of three. Two heroes, one overlord.
This is very helpful list for me. Right now, I'm collecting multiplayer board games that are good with 2 and good with more than 2 so when my kids are old enough to enjoy them, I'll be ready :)
I noticed Tom being very relaxed and good-humoured, also in the last videos he did with Jason. Don't know if that has anything to do with losing weight, but it definitely is good to see and also enhances the interaction and therefore Video quality. Keep up the great work!
Hey, I just realized the Road to Legend App was released yesterday. So you won't necessarily need an overlord again - you could even play Descent solo! ;p
3 ปีที่แล้ว +1
We need a 2021 update on this games cause of pandemic :) I can only play with my wife
Great list. This one is useful to me since, as a single dad, usually I can only get one person at a time to game with. When the title boxes for each game came up I wanted to scroll up and click the x button, they looked like pop up ads.
Suburbia is hell with more than 2 players. The bookkeeping in that game that is required already makes it a pain to keep track of your own moves...but then you also have to pay attention to what every other player is doing. It's just not fun with more than 2 and it goes on WAY too long.
mgk2020 Robinson Crusoe is basically a single player game. There's no hidden information and no restrictions on table talk, so players just team up and make decisions as a group. It basically turns into group solitaire.
For me, I gotta say Smash Up. More than two people and too many things can happen that can mess up your plans before you get a chance to put them into action. It really shines, for me at least, as a great head-to-head duel.
Love the sequence between 44:45-46:55. Absolutely hilarious. I would say Seasons is an obvious omission. Tom, while it may have been on your top 10 games that scale well list (which I suppose works), the game is far superior with two players. Since there was so much talk about play length during this list, Seasons is one of those games that is quick and fun with two, a little too long with three, and "what did I just get myself into" with four. The draft in Seasons is also much better with two.
Great to see this in 2022. Fun to see the old games. Maybe this is one to redo now, or even take it to “which multiplayer plays best solo (my number one would be Hadrian’s Wall),
This was a really entertaining top 10! I think Carcassonne and St. Petersburg are better with 3 players than with two because there are more interesting decisions to be made. For instance, building a city cooperatively in Carcassonne is great because you and another player rake in the points while a third one gets nothing. With two players a shared city is basically dead. Also, when using the big meeple, you sometimes want to use it and sometimes don't when attacking a city because while the player owning the city might complete it anyway if you send a small dude, he will not do so with the big one. With 2 players, that's out the window. St. Petersburg is great at 2, but I think it's slightly better with 3. And it's kind of bad at 4. Mainly because it's a tight game as it is, but with 4 players you never get any sort of real engine running.
Gravwell is another racing game that plays best at 2. Not because 3 or 4 players adds any time to the game; it's simultaneous play so it actually scales pretty well in that regard. It's just that in Gravwell your movement is dependent on the objects around you (i.e. other players). Thus, 3 and 4 are far more chaotic, though good for a casual atmosphere, while 2 can be an intense mind-game between opponents as they bluff and gamble for position.
Surprised not to hear Castles of Burgundy mentioned (although I'm unsure how you guys rate it in general). And for anyone looking for another great heavy euro for two, Shipyard becomes super-tactical with two players as you each leave a spare pawn in place whenever you select an action on the rondel, which blocks those spaces worker-placement style: best way to play the game in my view.
I really have to disagree with most of Sam's list. Rum and Bones is a 2 or 4 player (team) game, which is basically a 2 player game in disguise. He also included a couple of 2-3 player games which shouldn't really count. And the whole point of 1vMany is having Many to oppose. The one that really stood out as one I would've picked was Viceroy. I like it at all counts, but it's really best at 2 for the reasons listed.
This list feels more like games that start at 2 players but support multiple players, than games intended for multiple players (3+), but play better when modified for two (which is what I was expecting from the title) Sam"s 1 vs all titles were some of the only exceptions that seemed to fit the title better. Still fun to watch . I played Werewolf once as a 2p, and it was a plague.
Please Please Please always have totally random video footage montages at the start of every video. I love them, they always make me absolutely delighted that I'm watching.
Shame on all of you - when you were talking about everyone having a law now, you missed the golden opportunity to say "I am the law" =8) In Zee's defence, we enjoy Neuroshima with 3. Yes, it plays better with 2, but 3 also has an interesting dynamic to it in vampire mode.
Zee is 100% right about Neuroshima Hex. The app, which Sam says he plays all the time, has 3 and 4 player settings as well as challenges for beating multiple AIs in a 3 and 4 player setting. Not only is Zee right, but during the whole video I figured this would be Sam's #1.
Great video! One comment about the description boxes. For me it would be easier to read if the ”Designer:” and ”Producer:” parts were bolded because then I could see faster and clearer who is the designer for that game for example. I have to agree with Zee that I hate to play multiple colours/players. I too like to roleplay a little and make one ultimate strategy for my one guy for that game. Probably the only exception for this is T.I.M.E Stories, that’s probably best with two. In fact the plays with two players have confirmed that T.I.M.E Stories is the number one game of all time at this point. And yes, Rahdo is wrong!
My wife and I have been digging on playing Scythe as a 2-player cooperative vs the Automa system running any number of factions depending on the difficulty setting. Using the ScytheKick app the Automa plays are quick and don’t require rule parsing so the play style is quick. You actly can’t wait to get your turn done just to see what those Automa #%€£$&@‘s are going to try. The cooperative aspect is fun too.
I normally don't watch board-game youtube stuff. This list caught my eye as I always play games with 3 and usually 4+. I only disagree with Elder Sign. Easily playable with up to 5-6. The game goes faster with fewer people, but is far harder and requires more in depth character choices with more players. More bad things potentially happen in between your turn creating a pre-planning phase and socializing discussion (who is best for what task). As well as less chance to buy the VP in the game (elder signs) as you have less chance to get currency before the BBEG gets his next Mythos (potentially giving him his own VP to arise). The expansions do fix it so you can't buy VP though, the discussion of making each turn count is still there. Adding another experienced vet of the game adds 5-10 minutes per player, as most likely they know what their best COA is for their turn.
Gonna back my man Jared Whitley here: This list, in light of Whitley's Law, is actually a list of labeled 'multiplayer' games that are actually designed with the architecture of a 2 player game. The reason they are worse at higher player counts is because the mechanics are breaking down, and they are best at 2; adding more players allows the game to express nothing extra. Games like Dominion, Carcassonne, and Castles of Burgundy are 2 player games where the interaction level is so low you can add more players and all that happens is you add more time. You can tell because adding players adds nothing but more downtime. Zee's argument regarding Elder Sign is a solid case for why it is a 2 player game--because you get every facet of the game, and adding even one more player just makes for more space between turns(3 players is terrible because of the "4 turns a round" system). Games like Small World require you to divide your attention between players and maybe even build temporary alliances, and this disappears in 2 player games(see Zee's point in the other video about games that scale). The exceptions to this rule would be games that play exactly the same, do not change in quality or mechanism, between 2 and 3 players. Cooperative games will really be where you find exceptions to this Law, but I think it would be fine to amend the law to say that this only applies to competitive games. There's plenty of games that can be played between 2 and 3 with zero changes--Pandemic, Forbidden Island, The D&D Adventure System, Mice & Mystics, Legends of Andor, etc. But I don't see this as evidence against what he was saying. It's simply evidence that these are 2 player games that support more players. There are exceptions, as Jared said, but I don't think there are hundreds and hundreds of notable examples, and this video isn't showcasing any evidence that this isn't at least generally true. The things that fundamentally drive games to work change dramatically when a third self-interested agent is added to or removed from the system.
+Eamon Burke I agree with Tom, there are many that break this supposed law. 1. Tikal: while I actually play a variant of Tikal for 2 players called Mini-Tikal, regular Tikal for 2 of fine, it's just big and takes longer. Mini-Tikal doesn't require any extra components and can be played with a regular game board. Check out the popularity of Mini-Tikal as evidence that many do indeed like it! This is a competitive game with player interaction and breaks the "rule" tremendously. 2. Trias: I was introduced to this playing 2 players and fell in love with it. After about 2-3 months I got to play a 3 player game and it was great, after a few more months I played a 4 player game and that was great too. I have yet to play a 5 player game, but 2-4 are equal. Another competitive game with player interaction and breaks the "rule" tremendously. 3. Alien Frontiers: 2 is good, 3-5 great, 6 good. Great game, and enjoy the 2 player game. While there are some that dislike this as a 2 player game, many do. 4. Exodus: Proxima Centauri: I have only played 2 players two times, and it needs more plays, but have heard great things for more than 2 players. 5. Belfort 2 is good, 3 great, 4 good, 5 ok: great Euro game. I know some people do not like the 2 player variant, but I thought it was fine and so do many people. Unforunately I do not have as many games under my belt as Tom, and can't give you more examples. But Tom is a man with upstanding character, and I believe him when he says many competitive games exist where 2 player is good. When you state, "Cooperative games will really be where you find exceptions to this Law, but I think it would be fine to amend the law to say that this only applies to competitive games." You give a good example where this supposed law is amended, but I see others. When you have to amend the law this much, it is no longer a law, but only a major occurrence. You also stated, "There's plenty of games that can be played between 2 and 3 with zero changes..., The D&D Adventure System...", I wish to add, I have played this game with more than the allotted player count and it played great as well. I do not consider it a 2-3 player game.
Their are only two games that I know that meet this catagory, and one that is a fringe case. -Mystery Rummy: Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde (plays 4, best at 2). - The Stars are Right (Plays 4, best at 2). And the Fringe Case Star Realms (It has many modes that are playable with many players, but the 2 player mode is still the best)
Not to sound like a stalker, but... Sam 2013: "Dungeon crawl for two... you lost me at that point". Interesting how tastes change over time, Sam really is a multi-faceted gamer ;)
+Anthony Hughes I remember him saying that but I forgot where. He said a dungeon crawl needs a party of players, and trashed someone else's opinion on that.
A couple of multiplayer games that you didn't mention, but BGG thinks are BEST with two: Castles of Burgundy, Attika, Glass Road, Finca, Grand Austria Hotel, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, Seasons, Ginkgopolis, Letters from Whitechapel. Also, At the Gates of Loyang, although that basically is a 2x2-player game when you play with 4.
Smash up would definitely have been top of my list, a very tactical back and forth as a two player game, which becomes random card playing as soon as you add more players in my opinion. Is this a game any of you considered?
i understand sam's point about his number one. it may be the same thing for Mage knight...best with two player..than 3 or 4. but still the best solo boardgame ever .
I don't want every game to take forever or have lots of downtime but I certainly don't mind downtime or long play times if the game is good. I just don't mind being "there" for a long time, I enjoy the experience and the whole get together with friends/family regardless.
Tom, you like Among the Stars more with 2 players, more than Among the Stars: Revival w/ 2 players? I say this, bc the 2 player rules are different w/ the Revival expansion, than those included with the base set. Or did you mean the updated rules over the original?
Really good list this time guys! I like Survive with 2, even if Zee would hate using two colours at once. Roll for the Galaxy, Glass Road and Quadropolis would make my list. Robinson Crusoe would qualify for me as well if it wasn't so good with 1.
You should add links to the description of the video to the specific parts in the video, such as place and (specially) the name of the games. Seriously the only reason I don't subscribe or like the video is because I really don't care about most of the stuff you say.
At 58:20 Tom says to go and vote on upcoming Top Ten lists. Does this still exist as an option? I can't seem to find the link to do this on BGG or on Dicetower.com. Thanks for any leads!
Quantum with 2, don't know if I can agree with that one. The 2 player maps are so direct, strong tech cards can really swing it, it always seems like just one move wins the game. In 3 or 4 player games you have much more to consider, more competition, more techs cycling, and fun negotiation trying to get other players to slow down runaway leaders so you can sneak up from behind. Feel like you lose a lot at just 2 players.
+Tyler DeLisle For that matter, I agree with Tom and disagree with Sam on his second and third picks of One vs Many games. I always think these are best with 3 because you maintain that dynamic of a "team" against an overlord. You still get that fun discussion at the table rather than two people sitting in silence.
Hey, Tyler, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. I actually DON'T enjoy Quantum with only two players. To me, it's SO much better with four players.
I've found that Descent is super-easy for a four-player party of heroes. Without the integrated turns that Imperial Assault introduces, that's just way too many focused fire. When the OL's turn comes, there's barely (if any) critters to attack with. and if the OL ever gets the heroes on the ropes, the heroes just start firing off their once-per-game heroic feats. The 2nd edition is just too truncated for big nova powers like those to be balanced (which I suspect is why they were also quietly set aside in IA).
+Tristan Whitley There is a difference, this isn't a Top 10 two player list, but games that play best at 2. Thus a game can be great at 3, and even recommended at 3, but still be better at 2.
So what does everyone think about playing Descent 2.0 with the Road to Legend App? I haven't played Descent, but I primarily play games with two people (me and my girlfriend). Is Descent 2.0 worth getting for that purpose with the companion app?
Strangely enough only 4 of Zee's top 10, 3 of Tom's, and 2 of Sam's match the BGG consensus for "best with 2". Also both of Sam's matches could be argued are games that are basically 2 player only with a tacked on multiplayer.
You haven't found my list then :) And Family Showdown have done their list recently also. I play Thunderstone exclusively with 2. I agree. You can plan easier this way and turns go quickly. Although i still have put Tokaido as my number one game. I really like its two player variant with a dummy player, which is moved by the player on the last place. Very clever and VERY mean :D My others would be Zooloretto the dice game, Pompeii, Santiago de Cuba, Cacao (actually good with 3 also), Seasons :P, Voluspa, Palaces of Carrara, Firenze (that one i'm not sure nw after playing a bunch of two player games recently).
While I agree with Sam re: Specter Ops, I have to strongly disagree with him regarding Descent. Descent, when played with 4 players, pits 4 minds against the 1 overlord. So if the players are playing to win, they will share what they need to, sacrifice when they need to and get the benefit of 4 minds seeing the situation and analyzing the best plans. I'm usually the overlord when I play and it's hard to play against to 4 people are really focused on winning. If they can plan well, there's very little an OL can do against a unified team. If one is about to make the sub-optimal move, one of them will catch it and fix it.
Fury of Dracula. Dracula has the advantage, and will crush the hunters if they make a mistake. So in the hunters' case, you pretty much let the best player give orders to all the other hunters. It's such extreme quarterbacking that I wouldn't play it with any more than 2 players where one controls all the hunters.
Sams a big fan cooperative games, as long he doesn't have to cooperate with anyone.
Sam, you just took alpha player to the next level... just get rid of the other players on your team. Classic Sam!
+David Allen actually, next level after that is playing versus yourself i.e. solitair.
Zee is the new alpha.
TLDW:
10. Blokus, Carcassonne, Call to Glory
9. Castle, Elder Sign, Gemblo
8. DC Comics Deckbuilding Game, Quantum, Among The Stars
7. Thurn & Taxis, Race For the Galaxy, Heroes of Normandie
6. Thunderstone Advance, Rum & Bones, GOSU (Goblin Supremacy)
5. Ticket to Ride: Nordic Countries, Viceroy, On the Underground
4. Specter Ops, Dominion, The Hanging Gardens
3. Saint Petersburg, Lewis And Clark, Decent 2nd Edition
2. Imperial Settlers (Or 50 First dates 2nd ed), Level 7 Omega Protocol, Innovation
Zombicide: Black Plague, Neuroshima Hex!, Le Harve
Thank you!
Great list, one of my favorite top tens. I'm going to do a top ten of the Dice Tower top tens.
The audio quality with the new microphones is superb compared to the single-mic setup with the previous tech. One thing I missed with this top 10 compared to older ones was that the title/designer/etc. banner for each member's game choice only shows up briefly, whereas in previous top 10 videos the game banner was present pretty much continually throughout the discussion of each particular game before moving onto the next one. This previous format allowed easier video scrubbing to browse for the discussion of particular titles in the video or a given member's game choice for a certain number on the list. I do, however, really like the new LOOK of the title banners; it's cleaner and more sleek compared to the chunky ones in previous videos. I still am hoping that in future top 10 lists the title banners remain on the screen for longer periods of time before disappearing, similar to the above-mentioned, prior format. All--in-all, great stuff, Dice Tower. I'm a big fan of your content!
Single best constructive criticism in the comment section. You are absolutely right. I love watching the picture of the screen cover. It avoids needlessly stopping to look up how the cover would look like or quickly fast forwarding too. Lately, they've used some elements of the cover cropped into a small circular shape but that gave no idea how the game cover was like.
Yup, please bring back the longer banners. Thanks so much :)
That and it would be great for the banner to show up as soon as Sam starts his choices. I don't know why, but he takes FOREVER to actually say what game he is talking about. I think he might be forgetting that people watching these vids do not have the encyclopedic knowledge of board games that he does.
Everyone forgets about Guild Hall. It's a fantastic game with two players. Far less chaotic. You're really focused on what your opponent has on the table and what they might do. Every exchange of cards is important. I love it. Hopefully it gets some more attention when the reprint/retirement comes out this summer.
+Dano McArdle Oh, I didn't forget it. It was simply # 11. :)
The Dice Tower Aha! Good to know. I think the new printing will put it in the spotlight. I got to see it at Tokyo Game Market a couple weeks ago. The new artwork and theme is awesome.
What's this new version?
New to your vids, just subbed! My GF and I were just watching your review of TWILIGHT STRUGGLE and I said, "I bet you could play 4 players where each player has a 'Minister of Defense'. He could only make certain 'military' decisions afforded him by the 'Prime Minister'. But when he does, he can decide whatever he wants.
Mr S www.alderac.com/guildhall-fantasy/
I really like Citadels with 2 players. Quick and each player getting two characters is cool then there is the double bluffing with the assassin. Awesome.
My favorite game for 2! You nailed it.
my wife and I love DC comics deck builder. I agree 2 player is best however I don't agree with thinning the super villain deck. we often add more than the suggested amount. absolutely love that game.
I like your lists but for a quick reference, you should enable quick access to the different games or give a list in the description. My two cents
MrAfricaturtle yes please!!! agreed
Agreed. That would make it much easier to come back to and reference the list.
that would be great, shop or youtube review
If you go to the end of the video all the games are listed
Sam's intros are so long that by the time he names the games I already forget most of his anecdotes
Eyal Itsik and yet, I love listening to him!
I agree. People need to realize that all info given before the name of the game is lost because the listener has nothing to attach it too.
Castles of Burgundy beongs in this list.
PREACH
I'm surprised none of you guys (specifically Tom) put Seasons on your lists. Mine would be:
1. Seasons (too much downtime and checking others tableaus)
2. Innovation.
3. Race for the Galaxy.
4.Carcassonne.
5. Elder Sign.
6. Arkham Horror.
7. Le Havre.
8. Dominion.
9. Imperial Settlers.
10. The Castles of Burgundy.
Special mentions:
-The War of the Ring.
-The Lord of the Rings LCG.
(although they can be played with up to 4 players, I think they were designed just for 2)
Just my 2 cents.
Sam's Law: DO NOT CALL ECLIPSE TWILIGHT IMPERIUM 3 LITE AGAIN!
Zee's Law: HOLD MAH POCKET
1: Ghost stories with my girlfriend. We love playing this game where we both control 2 colours each.
2: Elder Sign. We love to play this game too. Played it once 6 players. Took FOREVER!
3: The Game, Love Letter / Loot Letter, Exploding Kittens, Other card games.
I just lately found your channel and watched ALOT of your content and now have a huge list of more games to buy.
You guys are going to make me bankrupt! :P
I think reviews that include thoughts on different player count might help a lot. We need lists like these, but short thoughts won't hurt the length of the video reviews. Thanks for this!
Player count talk should be a standard in videos.
Suggestion: Top ten games you like the idea of playing more than actual act of playing
Would be great if there was an updated video on this subject. There are a heap on new two player, or multiplayer that can also be placed as two, released since. I play almost exclusively with my partner, so all these newer options are hard to sift through
Jeez! If sam said what his games were faster, you could get these top 10 lists down to a 30min video!
Just up the speed to 1.5 or 2 and you're set...
Sam, even though they gave you grief, I think I've come to the same conclusion as you regarding Descent and also Imperial Assault. I've tried playing a campaign in both, and they both crashed and burned. The group was just not having fun. I've often thought that playing head to head would be the way to go. At max I'd go with a group of three. Two heroes, one overlord.
My group of five total are half way through our second campaign using return to Hoth. Most fun I've ever had in a board game.
Zee is just so quick! He makes me laugh out loud at least once per video.
Ultimate Alpha Gamer: "If i can't command others what they should do, then i just play for all of them alone" :D
Feeling pretty confident before watching that Zees #1 is gonna be Neuroshima Hex!
Im still puzzled they put .ore players than just 2 on the box.... such a magnoficent game thi
This is very helpful list for me. Right now, I'm collecting multiplayer board games that are good with 2 and good with more than 2 so when my kids are old enough to enjoy them, I'll be ready :)
I noticed Tom being very relaxed and good-humoured, also in the last videos he did with Jason. Don't know if that has anything to do with losing weight, but it definitely is good to see and also enhances the interaction and therefore Video quality. Keep up the great work!
+webs1 I, for one, welcome our angry, fat overlords...;)
Hey, I just realized the Road to Legend App was released yesterday. So you won't necessarily need an overlord again - you could even play Descent solo! ;p
We need a 2021 update on this games cause of pandemic :) I can only play with my wife
Great list. This one is useful to me since, as a single dad, usually I can only get one person at a time to game with. When the title boxes for each game came up I wanted to scroll up and click the x button, they looked like pop up ads.
Zee's little acting bits have been awesome in this video especially the Big Wolf guy at 36:50.
I can't tell you how flattered I am to have inspired this list ...
+Whitleypedia do you still feel correct?
+John Corley I am just grateful to have advanced thr conversation.
+Whitleypedia and yes
Suburbia is hell with more than 2 players. The bookkeeping in that game that is required already makes it a pain to keep track of your own moves...but then you also have to pay attention to what every other player is doing. It's just not fun with more than 2 and it goes on WAY too long.
Late to the party but this is such a great idea for a top 10. Nicely done.
Robinson Crusoe should have made this list too. Definitely best with two.
+mgk2020 Agree.
+mgk2020 Quite possibly is best with two. Good choice.
mgk2020 Robinson Crusoe is basically a single player game. There's no hidden information and no restrictions on table talk, so players just team up and make decisions as a group. It basically turns into group solitaire.
For me, I gotta say Smash Up. More than two people and too many things can happen that can mess up your plans before you get a chance to put them into action. It really shines, for me at least, as a great head-to-head duel.
"This is like the weirdest therapy session".
So good!
Dat Carmen Sandiego cosplay!
Love the sequence between 44:45-46:55. Absolutely hilarious.
I would say Seasons is an obvious omission. Tom, while it may have been on your top 10 games that scale well list (which I suppose works), the game is far superior with two players. Since there was so much talk about play length during this list, Seasons is one of those games that is quick and fun with two, a little too long with three, and "what did I just get myself into" with four. The draft in Seasons is also much better with two.
+Gavin Stegmiller Sam is scarred for life
This. qft
Great to see this in 2022. Fun to see the old games. Maybe this is one to redo now, or even take it to “which multiplayer plays best solo (my number one would be Hadrian’s Wall),
This was a really entertaining top 10!
I think Carcassonne and St. Petersburg are better with 3 players than with two because there are more interesting decisions to be made. For instance, building a city cooperatively in Carcassonne is great because you and another player rake in the points while a third one gets nothing. With two players a shared city is basically dead. Also, when using the big meeple, you sometimes want to use it and sometimes don't when attacking a city because while the player owning the city might complete it anyway if you send a small dude, he will not do so with the big one. With 2 players, that's out the window.
St. Petersburg is great at 2, but I think it's slightly better with 3. And it's kind of bad at 4. Mainly because it's a tight game as it is, but with 4 players you never get any sort of real engine running.
big meeple doesn't come in base game
Tom specifically included the expansions.
I'm with Zee. I have trouble remembering my ONE character, let alone several LOL
Gravwell is another racing game that plays best at 2. Not because 3 or 4 players adds any time to the game; it's simultaneous play so it actually scales pretty well in that regard. It's just that in Gravwell your movement is dependent on the objects around you (i.e. other players). Thus, 3 and 4 are far more chaotic, though good for a casual atmosphere, while 2 can be an intense mind-game between opponents as they bluff and gamble for position.
Letters from Whitechapel is definitely up there for me
Surprised not to hear Castles of Burgundy mentioned (although I'm unsure how you guys rate it in general).
And for anyone looking for another great heavy euro for two, Shipyard becomes super-tactical with two players as you each leave a spare pawn in place whenever you select an action on the rondel, which blocks those spaces worker-placement style: best way to play the game in my view.
I really have to disagree with most of Sam's list. Rum and Bones is a 2 or 4 player (team) game, which is basically a 2 player game in disguise. He also included a couple of 2-3 player games which shouldn't really count. And the whole point of 1vMany is having Many to oppose.
The one that really stood out as one I would've picked was Viceroy. I like it at all counts, but it's really best at 2 for the reasons listed.
An awesome list idea. Thanks for doing it.
+Mario Flores Great Top 10 idea!
This list feels more like games that start at 2 players but support multiple players, than games intended for multiple players (3+), but play better when modified for two (which is what I was expecting from the title) Sam"s 1 vs all titles were some of the only exceptions that seemed to fit the title better. Still fun to watch . I played Werewolf once as a 2p, and it was a plague.
Please Please Please always have totally random video footage montages at the start of every video. I love them, they always make me absolutely delighted that I'm watching.
Great List. Audio sounding better as well.
'I'm not an alpha gamer! I'm not! Say I'm not! Say it!'
100% agree with you on Le Havre. Absolutely wonderful game, ESPECIALLY at two.
Shame on all of you - when you were talking about everyone having a law now, you missed the golden opportunity to say "I am the law" =8)
In Zee's defence, we enjoy Neuroshima with 3. Yes, it plays better with 2, but 3 also has an interesting dynamic to it in vampire mode.
Zee is 100% right about Neuroshima Hex. The app, which Sam says he plays all the time, has 3 and 4 player settings as well as challenges for beating multiple AIs in a 3 and 4 player setting. Not only is Zee right, but during the whole video I figured this would be Sam's #1.
You guys are so fun I could watch you debate the entire day :)
Great video! One comment about the description boxes. For me it would be easier to read if the ”Designer:” and ”Producer:” parts were bolded because then I could see faster and clearer who is the designer for that game for example.
I have to agree with Zee that I hate to play multiple colours/players. I too like to roleplay a little and make one ultimate strategy for my one guy for that game. Probably the only exception for this is T.I.M.E Stories, that’s probably best with two. In fact the plays with two players have confirmed that T.I.M.E Stories is the number one game of all time at this point. And yes, Rahdo is wrong!
I would love to see a top 10 list of games you all play on the Ipad that are also board games...not that I need more of a time suck...
Top 10 Games You've NEVER Won
^^^This^^^
Or Top 10 Games You've RARELY Won.
Thanks Zee for giving DC Deck Building Game some love!
My wife and I have been digging on playing Scythe as a 2-player cooperative vs the Automa system running any number of factions depending on the difficulty setting. Using the ScytheKick app the Automa plays are quick and don’t require rule parsing so the play style is quick. You actly can’t wait to get your turn done just to see what those Automa #%€£$&@‘s are going to try. The cooperative aspect is fun too.
You 'flip flop' in Le Harve? That should be a dice tower recommendation quote from Tom.
Im surprised Sam didn't have Stone Age on his list. Thats a great 2 player game!
I normally don't watch board-game youtube stuff. This list caught my eye as I always play games with 3 and usually 4+. I only disagree with Elder Sign. Easily playable with up to 5-6. The game goes faster with fewer people, but is far harder and requires more in depth character choices with more players. More bad things potentially happen in between your turn creating a pre-planning phase and socializing discussion (who is best for what task). As well as less chance to buy the VP in the game (elder signs) as you have less chance to get currency before the BBEG gets his next Mythos (potentially giving him his own VP to arise). The expansions do fix it so you can't buy VP though, the discussion of making each turn count is still there. Adding another experienced vet of the game adds 5-10 minutes per player, as most likely they know what their best COA is for their turn.
Through the ages and Pulsar should be there ;)
Great games, just for two
Mombasa, Five Tribes, Carcassonne and half the games out there are better with two.
Would have been awesome to have Rahdo join for this one!
+Linus Ottosson That would basiclly be his top 10 games of all time M)
+NaabiXx lol Very true.
You'd have to add fifteen hours to the video while Rahdo rambles about unrelated things and says the word, "really" about three million times.
Yeah but you'd hear 30 different games because he changes his mind 3 times with every idea!
Totally agree with Zee. Playing multiple colours/characters completely kills immersion for me. I really hate it
Gonna back my man Jared Whitley here: This list, in light of Whitley's Law, is actually a list of labeled 'multiplayer' games that are actually designed with the architecture of a 2 player game.
The reason they are worse at higher player counts is because the mechanics are breaking down, and they are best at 2; adding more players allows the game to express nothing extra.
Games like Dominion, Carcassonne, and Castles of Burgundy are 2 player games where the interaction level is so low you can add more players and all that happens is you add more time. You can tell because adding players adds nothing but more downtime. Zee's argument regarding Elder Sign is a solid case for why it is a 2 player game--because you get every facet of the game, and adding even one more player just makes for more space between turns(3 players is terrible because of the "4 turns a round" system). Games like Small World require you to divide your attention between players and maybe even build temporary alliances, and this disappears in 2 player games(see Zee's point in the other video about games that scale).
The exceptions to this rule would be games that play exactly the same, do not change in quality or mechanism, between 2 and 3 players. Cooperative games will really be where you find exceptions to this Law, but I think it would be fine to amend the law to say that this only applies to competitive games. There's plenty of games that can be played between 2 and 3 with zero changes--Pandemic, Forbidden Island, The D&D Adventure System, Mice & Mystics, Legends of Andor, etc.
But I don't see this as evidence against what he was saying. It's simply evidence that these are 2 player games that support more players. There are exceptions, as Jared said, but I don't think there are hundreds and hundreds of notable examples, and this video isn't showcasing any evidence that this isn't at least generally true.
The things that fundamentally drive games to work change dramatically when a third self-interested agent is added to or removed from the system.
+Eamon Burke I agree with Tom, there are many that break this supposed law.
1. Tikal: while I actually play a variant of Tikal for 2 players called Mini-Tikal, regular Tikal for 2 of fine, it's just big and takes longer. Mini-Tikal doesn't require any extra components and can be played with a regular game board. Check out the popularity of Mini-Tikal as evidence that many do indeed like it! This is a competitive game with player interaction and breaks the "rule" tremendously.
2. Trias: I was introduced to this playing 2 players and fell in love with it. After about 2-3 months I got to play a 3 player game and it was great, after a few more months I played a 4 player game and that was great too. I have yet to play a 5 player game, but 2-4 are equal. Another competitive game with player interaction and breaks the "rule" tremendously.
3. Alien Frontiers: 2 is good, 3-5 great, 6 good. Great game, and enjoy the 2 player game. While there are some that dislike this as a 2 player game, many do.
4. Exodus: Proxima Centauri: I have only played 2 players two times, and it needs more plays, but have heard great things for more than 2 players.
5. Belfort 2 is good, 3 great, 4 good, 5 ok: great Euro game. I know some people do not like the 2 player variant, but I thought it was fine and so do many people.
Unforunately I do not have as many games under my belt as Tom, and can't give you more examples. But Tom is a man with upstanding character, and I believe him when he says many competitive games exist where 2 player is good. When you state, "Cooperative games will really be where you find exceptions to this Law, but I think it would be fine to amend the law to say that this only applies to competitive games." You give a good example where this supposed law is amended, but I see others. When you have to amend the law this much, it is no longer a law, but only a major occurrence.
You also stated, "There's plenty of games that can be played between 2 and 3 with zero changes..., The D&D Adventure System...", I wish to add, I have played this game with more than the allotted player count and it played great as well. I do not consider it a 2-3 player game.
Excellent list. Thanks guys.
Their are only two games that I know that meet this catagory, and one that is a fringe case.
-Mystery Rummy: Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde (plays 4, best at 2).
- The Stars are Right (Plays 4, best at 2).
And the Fringe Case
Star Realms (It has many modes that are playable with many players, but the 2 player mode is still the best)
Not to sound like a stalker, but... Sam 2013: "Dungeon crawl for two... you lost me at that point". Interesting how tastes change over time, Sam really is a multi-faceted gamer ;)
Yeah, I cought it too.
+Anthony Hughes I remember him saying that but I forgot where. He said a dungeon crawl needs a party of players, and trashed someone else's opinion on that.
AddiktGaming Top ten overrated games. He was talking about Claustrophobia. An amazing game by the way.
45:57 Sam is a "CLOSET" Alpha Gamer ...
Special mention : 46:29 , 46:45 :D !!!! Zee cracks me up tho!
Dice tower reviews... Better with three. I really like these guys with their banter. Really great entertainment
This is a fantastic list! Thanks guys! :)
This was one of my favorite lists you guys have made! Thanks? Specter Ops needs more than 2 players.
A couple of multiplayer games that you didn't mention, but BGG thinks are BEST with two: Castles of Burgundy, Attika, Glass Road, Finca, Grand Austria Hotel, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, Seasons, Ginkgopolis, Letters from Whitechapel. Also, At the Gates of Loyang, although that basically is a 2x2-player game when you play with 4.
Smash up would definitely have been top of my list, a very tactical back and forth as a two player game, which becomes random card playing as soon as you add more players in my opinion. Is this a game any of you considered?
i understand sam's point about his number one. it may be the same thing for Mage knight...best with two player..than 3 or 4. but still the best solo boardgame ever .
This needs an update!
I don't want every game to take forever or have lots of downtime but I certainly don't mind downtime or long play times if the game is good. I just don't mind being "there" for a long time, I enjoy the experience and the whole get together with friends/family regardless.
Tom, you like Among the Stars more with 2 players, more than Among the Stars: Revival w/ 2 players?
I say this, bc the 2 player rules are different w/ the Revival expansion, than those included with the base set. Or did you mean the updated rules over the original?
+Jake Kamps Updated rules. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
Please make an updated video for this list. Or just a list for best games for 2 players (2-player or multiplayer).
I will try Sam's way at Rumis. I agree with Zee it play very well with 3 and 4. Nice video
When i heard the title of this list i immediately thought of Elder Sign. It is a fav of mine and I enjoy it with other number, but 2 is optimal.
One glaring omission, and one of my favorite games of all-time (only two player): Castles of Burgundy.
The dashboards in Zombicide: BP males controlling multiple heroes really easy.
I play solo with all 6! 😊
Really good list this time guys!
I like Survive with 2, even if Zee would hate using two colours at once. Roll for the Galaxy, Glass Road and Quadropolis would make my list.
Robinson Crusoe would qualify for me as well if it wasn't so good with 1.
With Zee's dislike of playing multiple characters, I'm surprised he likes Mr. Jack!
Haha! I laughed so hard that Dr. Pepper came out of my nose when Zee said "You sicken me!"
We did a similar list over on our channel. We did not go with the angle of BEST with 2 players. Nice video!
+The Family Showdown Similarly with me. I maintain my favorite 2 player games, these include 2 player only and multi-player, all that play great at 2.
You should add links to the description of the video to the specific parts in the video, such as place and (specially) the name of the games. Seriously the only reason I don't subscribe or like the video is because I really don't care about most of the stuff you say.
At 58:20 Tom says to go and vote on upcoming Top Ten lists. Does this still exist as an option? I can't seem to find the link to do this on BGG or on Dicetower.com. Thanks for any leads!
One of the best lists ever!
Quantum with 2, don't know if I can agree with that one. The 2 player maps are so direct, strong tech cards can really swing it, it always seems like just one move wins the game. In 3 or 4 player games you have much more to consider, more competition, more techs cycling, and fun negotiation trying to get other players to slow down runaway leaders so you can sneak up from behind. Feel like you lose a lot at just 2 players.
+Tyler DeLisle For that matter, I agree with Tom and disagree with Sam on his second and third picks of One vs Many games. I always think these are best with 3 because you maintain that dynamic of a "team" against an overlord. You still get that fun discussion at the table rather than two people sitting in silence.
Hey, Tyler, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. I actually DON'T enjoy Quantum with only two players. To me, it's SO much better with four players.
I've found that Descent is super-easy for a four-player party of heroes. Without the integrated turns that Imperial Assault introduces, that's just way too many focused fire. When the OL's turn comes, there's barely (if any) critters to attack with. and if the OL ever gets the heroes on the ropes, the heroes just start firing off their once-per-game heroic feats. The 2nd edition is just too truncated for big nova powers like those to be balanced (which I suspect is why they were also quietly set aside in IA).
Love some of the picks guys! The DC deckbuilder is a great game for two players.
Surprised at how many crossovers they had with their "Top 10 3 Player Games" :-P
+Tristan Whitley There is a difference, this isn't a Top 10 two player list, but games that play best at 2. Thus a game can be great at 3, and even recommended at 3, but still be better at 2.
So what does everyone think about playing Descent 2.0 with the Road to Legend App? I haven't played Descent, but I primarily play games with two people (me and my girlfriend). Is Descent 2.0 worth getting for that purpose with the companion app?
"Tom is a good overlord." That should somehow be worked into his Dice Tower business cards. Tom Vasel: Good Overlord of the Dice Tower.
I quite agree with Zee on Imperial Settlers, it was the first game I thought of. Four players is a no no, three is ok but two is certainly the best.
Strangely enough only 4 of Zee's top 10, 3 of Tom's, and 2 of Sam's match the BGG consensus for "best with 2". Also both of Sam's matches could be argued are games that are basically 2 player only with a tacked on multiplayer.
You haven't found my list then :) And Family Showdown have done their list recently also.
I play Thunderstone exclusively with 2. I agree. You can plan easier this way and turns go quickly. Although i still have put Tokaido as my number one game. I really like its two player variant with a dummy player, which is moved by the player on the last place. Very clever and VERY mean :D
My others would be Zooloretto the dice game, Pompeii, Santiago de Cuba, Cacao (actually good with 3 also), Seasons :P, Voluspa, Palaces of Carrara, Firenze (that one i'm not sure nw after playing a bunch of two player games recently).
While I agree with Sam re: Specter Ops, I have to strongly disagree with him regarding Descent. Descent, when played with 4 players, pits 4 minds against the 1 overlord. So if the players are playing to win, they will share what they need to, sacrifice when they need to and get the benefit of 4 minds seeing the situation and analyzing the best plans.
I'm usually the overlord when I play and it's hard to play against to 4 people are really focused on winning. If they can plan well, there's very little an OL can do against a unified team. If one is about to make the sub-optimal move, one of them will catch it and fix it.
Fury of Dracula. Dracula has the advantage, and will crush the hunters if they make a mistake. So in the hunters' case, you pretty much let the best player give orders to all the other hunters. It's such extreme quarterbacking that I wouldn't play it with any more than 2 players where one controls all the hunters.