that actually sounds like a cool idea, people try to make their machines the fastest and compete for a prize. kinda like those chainsaw competitions where they gotta cut through a log as fast as they can 3 times or whatever, just with metal and big azz cnc machines. ok the guy with the sawzall can come too
IPM looks cool. When it comes to roughing, it's MRR (Material Removal Rate) which counts. The customer pays for the finish cut. You make money on the roughing cut!
Exactly this. You passed the MRR of the 800 IPM (inches per minute) cut with 1.5 in. WOC (width of cut) all the way back at 450 IPM with the 2.7 in. WOC.
Maybe true but power milling is hard on your tools and your machine. I can turn an endmill into a ball mill and still finish the job before I’m even aware of it with high speed machining. My parts come out flatter and my walls are straight within tenths. Aaaaaannd I don’t have to tighten the crap out of my delicate part. Power milling has proven to be faster for sure but when that tool breaks, your holder is damaged and that part is scrapped hsm will have put more money in your pocket from said customer. Unless you have a spare tool in the carriage and the part hasn’t moved and verified it hasn’t. A continuously running hsm program will leave you behind and give you over 3 times the tool life.
I use a different approach. I set up my machines to run as many parts as possible. I bought a brand new, gorgeous VF5XT last year and I fill the 60 x 26 travel with parts. this gives me a 9 hour run time with tool reliability. I can run the machine during the day and then get another run in at night. Maybe I could push it harder but as its lights out machining with nobody at the shop I'm happy with a program that is reliable and doesn't break tools.. ever.
Here I am 2 weeks into Precision Machining classes and I'm reading OP's comment like "Wasn't one of the first things they said in the safety course and safety tests, to not ever leave a CNC running unattended, and to keep an eye on the entire process"? Lol
Interesting, never once that I have seen does he mention CIH...going fast looks cool. King of roughing ..wonder what he finishes at. Or what is acceptable for tolerance variance.
300 and 400 series needs some gentle loving by the tool😆😆😆😆. We all know what happens when you try to push the envelope with 300 and 400 series. Tool life goes haywire!!!!.
@@TITANSofCNC We rough hard too. Inserts last through alot more parts. Interesting how sometimes you're at 60 hrs for the week, YOU (well me anyways) DONT WANT TO WORK SATURDAY, double the feed rates, get it done, and see ya'all Monday! 😉👍
Lol and then there's me who has to run the same part 24/6 for 5 years so this kind of nonsense is idiotic unless I want phone calls at 2 am from a production guy who only knows how to put another tool in and blow it up too. In mass production cycle time is even more important than for the jobshop guys, every single second is counted. Including those you spend flipping the inserts every 3 cuts.
@@e23561 they completely missed the point I made about machine wear. Trying to normalize apparent machine abuse is a desperate grab at youtube views. @e23561, good point about downtime as well
@@rodidy Is it your experience that tools and machine has substantially more wear PER PART if you run fast vs slow? I would assume that on the spindle ex - it would be a very hard, expensive and time consuming study to make. It seems like a lot of parts are unnessacarily expensive due to slow processes, and as with anything backing 10% off the max. is probably a lot more durable than backing 2% off, but the difference between 50% and 90% is likely miniscule in wear.
Smyth Diana True. We have to err on the side of caution. I cant go to my boss with a destroyed $800 facemill. I just cant. This was awesome because it is something we all want to try.
@bobwatters Indeed, and that does not qualify them as machinists, manual machines are still needed to back up CNC and if you don't have the skill you are in trouble.
I know my machine pretty well and wanted to run it for as long as possible with no coolant... simply because I wanted to have a clear view on camera of the cutter actually cutting. Just for Camera - Not recommended.
I thought that might be the reason. It's one of the reasons I prefer mist on mine.......but I only have 2hp.....so I'm on a completely different playing fields. lol Thanks for the response!! Thank you for everything you are sharing with the rest of us! Mike
I thought that might be the reason. It's one of the reasons I prefer mist on mine.......but I only have 2hp.....so I'm on a completely different playing fields. lol Thanks for the response!! Thank you for everything you are sharing with the rest of us! Mike
I run a HASS 5 at work with steel parts and just use coolant when drilling. We just use compressed air when milling. The boss says that the tips we use are designed to be run dry so that`s what we have to do. Don`t really know if it`s right as the place is a bit weird lol.
i started my cnc-carreer about 1,5 years ago with lathe turning... my colleauges called me crazy for roughing aluminum with stainless-steel-inserts at doc 5mm f .5mm v 500m/min :D i just started introducing high power inserts for roughing, pushing productivity by +300% - +800% depending on material and possibility to get good grip ;-) love your show, PeacE :D
Thanks for the video. Am so glad I have finished work, I had to work on VF3 and VF6,since 1992. plus old M/C in which I prefer . Have fun, I used to program and operate, they always wanted more..UK England,
B.e.a.utiful. I just bought a Stellram for my shop, they put me in charge of CNC machining, programming, tooling. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. The old guys love their 20-30ipm. I showed them the Stellram today took it up to 600ipm today.
Are you really gaining ground though? Pushing to 800 is great, but if you're reducing your radial to do it, is it worth it? Especially considering wear on the machine? Great video though, thanks.
Christian Forthofer i worked with a programmer like this. Run crazy speeds, pop the program in, and walk away. Then get pissed we you bitched that you were changing tools every 15 min. $100 in turning inserts by the end of the night with only 0% increase in production because of all the downtime rebuilding tools that failed early.
@@pharaun159 LOL I had a "programmer" come in on a weekend with me, turns out we were programming the same part. His took 2.5hrs and used a 6" long R390 to do most of the roughing, 45 minutes on one tool. You actually had to stop in process, change inserts, and restart from the beginning of the tool. My whole program took 45min and you could actually run it without breaking a tool. He was one of those guys that graduated the machinist course and thought he was a programmer worth $26/hr.
Yeah...I've worked for an owner like this..crank the piss out of it and in 304 or 316 ss, make it through one or two like a hero and walk away for u to inevitably have a crash later...not his fingernails getting chewed....prick
by my crude calculations 2.7 x .1 x 444 ipm = 120cu in per min. 1.5 x .1 x 800 = 120cu in per min. also I would say that the tool can handle it just fine, the machine taps out.
Nothing against Haas, but you get what you pay for. This is a 40 taper machine and that little spindle just doesn't have gobs of torque like a geared 50 taper with 35+ HP. Bigger machine would also have sturdy box ways and a design that is simply more geared towards beating the shit out of it.
I agree for the most part, Haas machines are cheap but they're very economical. my old shop had a high end Mori, it was a kick ass machine but had a lot of problems and had to be fixed often. My new shop has a vision wide which is a cheap Korean machine, it is really powerful; 55hp and a crap ton of torque but its maxed out at 7000rpm.
A CAT40 taper, linear guide machine is NOT made for old school/box-way hogging. "High speed machining" works because linear guides wear less overtime than boxways and typically the feed rate/rapids are higher on the machine due to the smaller amount of friction. My box way fadal is maxed out at 200ipm. Over that and not only can the processor not keep up, it drains the way oil with a quickness. It's like complaining about not getting your corvette to trailer 10,000lbs loads.
For me usually is the workholding that limits the speeds. I can dial in the numbers even larger MRR than that in video but either there's too little material to hold on or poor selection of vises at the moment. Eitherway it costs money better known as opportunity cost. Proper tools always pays off in time and only thing that you can't replace is time so that will always be the most expensive thing in any shop.
Pretty cool test. 162 in³/min @ 600ipm is more than I expected it would do. Those Stellram cutters are very nice. Do you know how low the rpms dropped on that 600ipm pass? When can we expect a test in steel? :)
Nice video and I learnt a thing or two. The only thing I don't understand is why the emphasis is put on feed rate while there are more variables contributing to material removal. Making money with a machine means removing volume as quickly as possible, which would mean cubic inches per minute. The 600ipm pass at a 2.7" stepover was 126 cubic inches per minute The 800ipm pass at a 1.5" stepover was 120 cubic inches per minute BUT with reduced spindle load What I would suggest in search for a metal-hogging recipe is to be at full depth of cut, keep the maximum feed rate and play with the stepover. The reason being, you're paying for big inserts but only use .1 inch of the tip. Any thoughts?
2.7 was definitely a higher HP also... My point was not to bury the tool but just to show everyone the tool could handle a lot... so don't be scared to experiment. My normal feed as seen the the spark plug video is 300-500IPM at Z-.2 which gives me a nice MRR.
𝖘 𝖍 𝖎 𝖗 𝖔 you're right a more complete doc would use the insert more efficiently. Though generally a tool of that size your probably using more for facing style cuts, not so much mass MMR, there's more suitable tools for that
I cut mild steel every day with sandvick r.390 inserts. One thing I've found to save the cutters and inserts is to either be above the screw or below it. Having the cutting pressure concentrated at the thinnest part of the insert leads to inserts breaking. Best strategy is at 1/3 of insert or 2/3. I cut at 40 ipm with 1 inch sandvick and .5 depth of cut using air through tool on my HAAS VF5 XT. Btw, I've been machining since 1980 and the HAAS is the best machine I've ever used. Yes, I've owned Makino, Matsuura etc. HAAS wipes the floor with them.
You da man! That is some scary stuff you just did and pulled it off nicely. Since I work with mostly plastic, aluminum, and stainless steel to me this is very impressive. I hope one day I can make it to just half way to what you know about cutting stuff. Keep up the great work as you are an inspiration to a lot of us just starting in on machining.
You must not have watched the end. I simply was showing the the tool can outlast the machine so don’t be scared and then backed it off and said 400 was the sweet spot We run at 400 all the time and never have issues at all...
at collage I try to push the haas mini mill to it limit, it got a 6000rpm 5.6kw spindle(7.5hp) I then got it running at 7500 mm/m feedrate which is about 300ipm, I then chickhen out as the spindel is reach over 8.9kw(8.9)
I loved this! As an apprentice machinist this guy can show me da way... haha awesome keep up the CNC videos! coming from washington state! The future must hold more machinists!! lets go!
A good test for the machine. If you're up to doing this again, drop the spindle speed to 9k-10k, since it will increase the available torque by about 60% (specifically at 9krpm). The chipload will shoot through the friggen roof at 800 IPM @ 9krpm, but hey that's what the test is for :)
I actually just did this today on my 1996 or 7 VF-6. I was running a similar style high feed face mill on some large 7000 series parts. 7500rpm (max for the machine it's old) at 150ipm 2"step over on a 3 inch shell @ .05doc. Spindle load floated around 100% I was getting fluffy hard to clean out chips. The auger didn't like them...haas... I dropped the rpm down to 5000rpm and everthing else the same. Load went down to 60% so I said ok, more feed? I went up to 240ipm, .05 doc, 5500rpm at 85-90% load. So my mrr went up 62% if i figure right, I got better chips, and didn't kill the machine. So I dropped all my other tools from 7500 that I was using down around 5000-5500 and almost doubled all my feed rates for the milling operations and now the parts are coming out roughly 75% faster. It makes sense thinking about it too. So for hogging I wont be maxing out my spindle, machine just falls flat on its face.
It's amazing to see the limits of a machine , but in real life application , this is too scary. Over 400 it really gets out of hand , if something breaks , even "only" 200 brings your hearth rate up :D . Now i wanna see some super high feed turning even if it's just aluminium . (parameters like .1 radial depth , feed .05"/rev , and cutting speed about 6000SFM)
Kiss peter that is the reason the shop I work at loses money, one guy runs and saves aggressive money making programs the next guy "ooo that's too much" and drops feeds and speeds by 50% and burns up tooling
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if you were conventional milling, rather than climb milling, on the original 2.7" step over. When you were on the 600 & 700 passes, it had that big wall that may have messed with chip evacuation. (P.S. I am NOT a machinist. So if that's an absolutely stupid observation and query, forgive me.) Also, I would like to see a video of milling with & without coolant. For example, if you did the *exact* same cuts with coolant and without coolant. Maybe with a parametric graph with the spindle load % & kw, HP, and surface footage. So we could see whether or not the coolant makes an appreciable difference, or any statistically significant difference at all. Maybe even one comparing MQL, mist, HP vs LP flood coolant, WD-40, brushed on cutting style lube like the old school guys use on the manual machines, etc.
The volume of material removed per minute is V = Feed x Width of Cut x Depth of Cut. You were actually removing more material per minute at 500 ipm and 2.7" woc than at 800 ipm and 1.5" woc.
As a MR1(SW)Retired Navy vet w/16 yrs sea duty .. I KNOW when I see power and Damn Good Machinest ... Wish you could Teach Me.. Where where you in '95?
The us government actually provides a free feeds and speeds chart for all kinds of materials. They do this kind of thing in my hometown. We were told about it by a local machine shop school
We just got the same ngc control in (2018 haas vf5xt). I noticed your chip load you see on the screen is reading correctly as a 4 flute cutter. So far I just programmed tool length and dia of tool . Looks like there is more for me to add (# of flutes)
Awesome video, You're the man. Is Kennametal your brand of choice for indexable cutters? I'm sure you've tried a variety of brands and know your stuff so I'm just curious. I'm in the process of modernizing my machine shop and I am currently focusing on tooling. Keep it up!
So how was the cut on the 500, 600, 700, fpm no coolant runs? As a non-machinist, I'm curious to see how much snipe or chatter there was on the (Y?) axis end of the material. I assume the Z was rough as well. (X?) went through on all but the last pass, so there was nothing to see there. (Not sure if the X was the plate motion, or if the Y was, but I'm assuming X based on the load factor on the screen)
20.3 metres a minute is certainly travelling. What RPM were you running? What grade aluminium were you using? Material has a big bearing. Insert geometry also has an influence. All machining is a lot of trade offs between speed, tool use, wear and number of operations in a job. The rapid traverse rates and speed of tool change also can have a bearing in time taken. Would be interested in seeing this performed on steel tho.
Cool vid. but need to know rated power of spindle and chipload per flute as well as chipload per revolution! how many revolutions per min? gotta know stuff but cool vid either way!
Why not take a full DOC of the insert cut at a proper feedrate for your horsepower limitations? In addition drop the spindle to a better part of the horsepower curve. This would be a faster MRR because there would be less movement overall. High IPM isn't always the fastest way to remove metal.
Agreed, there are definitely many variables... I didn't want to over complicate things... but more wanted to teach... These tools and machines can handle a lot, don't be afraid to test the waters at higher feed rates... You might just make some money:-)
exactly, these videos showing all this high feed rate is just for show. Backing off the DOC, WOC and increasing IPM does not remove material faster if you need to take more cuts. I would rather see some real stuff that shows how to maximize constrained by machine capability, and where your forced to use a small tool because of a feature. IE: is it worth it to REST or not. ALSO pushing HSM and adaptive strategies.
The correct approach (IMHO) is to review the torque curve of the mill and run at the RPM that produces Peak torque. then optimize depth of cut and feed rate around that for best MMR. At a certain point the tool stalls or breaks but usually that's to do with clearance of chips from the cut. To improve clearance of chips increase spindle speed - continue to optimize. I was able to triple my MMR over just running the spindle "flat out" and not thinking thru this..
Interesting to see this demo on alloy. I would like to see the result if you had tried to do fast speed (ipm) before you had reduced the height with previous cuts. More leverage on part, that would be interesting! Cheers from John, Australia.
I’m a precision engineer in Britain working with hurco CNC milling and Centre Lathes and we run our machines about equivalently what you run those but in millimetres
Titan, while finding the sweet spot on any machine is the key to productivity I have this feeling that you wont be happy and you want to make a machine that can actually do 1000 ipm no matter what material you put in its vise !!
I have been machining like this from day 1 in building my shop and that’s why I have been successful... because I solve my customers problems. You should check my last Vlog on last Friday when I tell the story of starting my shop and sleeping their so I could run machines 24/7. What I have is because I risked it all and put the work in.
I was under the impression that you did not want to enter the cut right at half the cutter diameter, because it is the weakest part of the cut for the insert. For example enter the cut at 1.6" or 1.4" I could be wrong
A couple questions, what grade was the aluminum, and did you step up the spindle speed when every increase of feed rate, or did you run the spindle speed the same rpm for every test?
that was pretty good that's not on common though here in my shop I run milltronics and Hoss's to VF ones and be able to use that I cut a 250 all day long on the aluminum never have an issue
If I ever nerd out and build a battle bot, I’m putting a jaw of life claw to grab the opponent and a moving arm with a cnc motor on the end of it. I’ll just cut them in half.
Sir , can you please suggest me the best but economical 100mm Dia milling cutter with insert specifications for Aluminium alloy having 10% of silicon...I'm waiting for your reply, thank you Currently I'm using SDHT04
I have run 6061 about 40 inches long 20 in wide 4in of depth. all day at .20 deep 1200 ipm similar cutter to the one used here . On a makino horz. At 1600ipm it was to loud for shop and came apart on second part . These videos are like why am I watching . I done this a million times. But I think I like to see which way other people do stuff. Hopefully I might learn something new sometime.
I don't know about all that but I work in aircraft has a Machinist and we run all of shell mills at 300" with a 150-250 Z depth of cut and it's about 90% load pending on our material
Why beat a cat 40 spindle like that. We cut aluminum all day with a 3 inch and 5 inch she'll .100 deep,140 ipm rough and 100 ipm finish at 8,000 rpm. Keep in mind aluminum will still distort if you take to much material off one side.
If you notice, I backed off and said 300-400ipm was the sweet spot for my specific machine. Been machining this way for 22 years and my machines run great... my bids win, and my company is successful. People wonder why they can’t out bid me with SpaceX and then argue about speeds and techniques. My point in this was just to show you that at 800 it didn’t break... So feel free to experiment so you can increase production and make money.
If your RPM is up high enough it should decrease the load per cut. Also maybe a smaller radius shell mill to decrease the speed that the tips of your cutting tools are moving to help them make a cleaner cut.
(Spindle talking to Aluminium): *Bite the vice, i'm going in dry*
Lmao
Lol
😂😂😂😂....how long to come up with this gold?
Lmao, top comment.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Haas Spindle: “Why do you hate me?”
"Because you're a HAAS."
nothing personal just business
Haas deserves just as much hate as their customers receive from them.
@@goldman7267 why though?
This coukd be a new sport discipline.
CNC Drag Racing
Cool Right:-)
Haha nice one :D Haas vs DMG :P
😂
Lmfao!
that actually sounds like a cool idea, people try to make their machines the fastest and compete for a prize. kinda like those chainsaw competitions where they gotta cut through a log as fast as they can 3 times or whatever, just with metal and big azz cnc machines. ok the guy with the sawzall can come too
It's not about how fast you mow. It's how well you mow fast.
Gotta Push it... Relax it... then Kiss It.
SpaceX doesn’t complain
@@TITANSofCNC just looking out for you here, you might want to delete this . confidentiality agreements and what not.
@@MrEtronic It's a 2 year old comment. If it was going to be an issue, it's a bit late now.
Elisha Robin you’re a moron
@@ThumbDr real original
IPM looks cool. When it comes to roughing, it's MRR (Material Removal Rate) which counts.
The customer pays for the finish cut. You make money on the roughing cut!
That's a great point!
Exactly this. You passed the MRR of the 800 IPM (inches per minute) cut with 1.5 in. WOC (width of cut) all the way back at 450 IPM with the 2.7 in. WOC.
Ya make your time roughing, ya take your time finishing:)
Maybe true but power milling is hard on your tools and your machine. I can turn an endmill into a ball mill and still finish the job before I’m even aware of it with high speed machining. My parts come out flatter and my walls are straight within tenths. Aaaaaannd I don’t have to tighten the crap out of my delicate part. Power milling has proven to be faster for sure but when that tool breaks, your holder is damaged and that part is scrapped hsm will have put more money in your pocket from said customer. Unless you have a spare tool in the carriage and the part hasn’t moved and verified it hasn’t. A continuously running hsm program will leave you behind and give you over 3 times the tool life.
A high speed machining rough cut is practically good enough to pass as a finish cut. Your finish cuts should be even faster because of chip thinning
I use a different approach. I set up my machines to run as many parts as possible. I bought a brand new, gorgeous VF5XT last year and I fill the 60 x 26 travel with parts. this gives me a 9 hour run time with tool reliability. I can run the machine during the day and then get another run in at night. Maybe I could push it harder but as its lights out machining with nobody at the shop I'm happy with a program that is reliable and doesn't break tools.. ever.
Thats a good approach to alot of small parts, but big parts or ones where you need 4 or 5 ops for completion, it isnt doable.
I'm in business to make money, not the tool supplier money. ( I tell my guys that all the time )
Cool approach, will remember for when I'm finished building my wooden diy cnc
Here I am 2 weeks into Precision Machining classes and I'm reading OP's comment like "Wasn't one of the first things they said in the safety course and safety tests, to not ever leave a CNC running unattended, and to keep an eye on the entire process"? Lol
Hear that..thats how we do it too
Hey , just a thought , If you back off radial another 1.5" , you could go a bazillion ipm.
Very true, And that would prove, ipm isn't always the answer.
Just what I though.
Eiserntors Phantom of the Opera
METAL REMOVAL RATE. volume over time.
Interesting, never once that I have seen does he mention CIH...going fast looks cool. King of roughing ..wonder what he finishes at. Or what is acceptable for tolerance variance.
Gotta say i was amazed at the surface finish at 700 ipm without coolant. Absolutely amazing.
Eat
Easy to push it on aluminium. Show me the boundaries on 300 or 400 series steel. I'm curious.
300 and 400 series needs some gentle loving by the tool😆😆😆😆. We all know what happens when you try to push the envelope with 300 and 400 series. Tool life goes haywire!!!!.
I wanna see it on carbide
Let's see them cut inconel
@@Chevydevil incolnel good, but better yet is mars
See it on some D2
The cost study on new inserts, tooling, and machine wear vs. 1 minute saved on cycle time. Marathon vs the sprint.
We save way more than 1 min and Crush the competition when it comes to bidding. Rough Hard and then Kiss it... for the Win.
@@TITANSofCNC
We rough hard too. Inserts last through alot more parts. Interesting how sometimes you're at 60 hrs for the week, YOU (well me anyways) DONT WANT TO WORK SATURDAY, double the feed rates, get it done, and see ya'all Monday! 😉👍
Lol and then there's me who has to run the same part 24/6 for 5 years so this kind of nonsense is idiotic unless I want phone calls at 2 am from a production guy who only knows how to put another tool in and blow it up too. In mass production cycle time is even more important than for the jobshop guys, every single second is counted. Including those you spend flipping the inserts every 3 cuts.
@@e23561 they completely missed the point I made about machine wear. Trying to normalize apparent machine abuse is a desperate grab at youtube views. @e23561, good point about downtime as well
@@rodidy Is it your experience that tools and machine has substantially more wear PER PART if you run fast vs slow?
I would assume that on the spindle ex - it would be a very hard, expensive and time consuming study to make.
It seems like a lot of parts are unnessacarily expensive due to slow processes, and as with anything backing 10% off the max. is probably a lot more durable than backing 2% off, but the difference between 50% and 90% is likely miniscule in wear.
When your chips are thicker than depth of cut...Lol
For real
"Today we are going to ram our beautiful F350 into a concrete well just to see how much these trucks can take..."
i mean thats whistlin diesels entire channel
If you never break a tool, you'll never know how fast you can go
Smyth Diana True. We have to err on the side of caution. I cant go to my boss with a destroyed $800 facemill. I just cant. This was awesome because it is something we all want to try.
Smyth Diana that ridiculous . It’s alll science . Understand sfm chip load materials and tools
@bobwatters Indeed, and that does not qualify them as machinists, manual machines are still needed to back up CNC and if you don't have the skill you are in trouble.
0.0 IPM, 0.00 RPM, I accidentally pressed release tool button. 8mm endmill disappeared . So you know you don't have to go fast :))
I'm still pretty much a newb, so I'm curious why the coolant wasn't turned on for the original 2.7" step over.
I know my machine pretty well and wanted to run it for as long as possible with no coolant... simply because I wanted to have a clear view on camera of the cutter actually cutting. Just for Camera - Not recommended.
I thought that might be the reason. It's one of the reasons I prefer mist on mine.......but I only have 2hp.....so I'm on a completely different playing fields. lol Thanks for the response!! Thank you for everything you are sharing with the rest of us!
Mike
I thought that might be the reason. It's one of the reasons I prefer mist on mine.......but I only have 2hp.....so I'm on a completely different playing fields. lol Thanks for the response!! Thank you for everything you are sharing with the rest of us!
Mike
Richie Bhoy yeah but they'd shame themselves by making dumb remarks like that....
I run a HASS 5 at work with steel parts and just use coolant when drilling. We just use compressed air when milling. The boss says that the tips we use are designed to be run dry so that`s what we have to do. Don`t really know if it`s right as the place is a bit weird lol.
I just found this channel...
This is every $10hr, employees wet dream 😅 tear shit up
I want to see 800 in inconel.
Me too... Sparks
Cermet inserts on a lathe. No problem. Makes up for a nice set of firecrackers.
Wow a feedrate
Just go .100 deep, then back off about .101
I always wanted somebody to sneak into WESTEC with some Inconel and swap the leadloy out for it in somebody's demo.
i started my cnc-carreer about 1,5 years ago with lathe turning... my colleauges called me crazy for roughing aluminum with stainless-steel-inserts at doc 5mm f .5mm v 500m/min :D
i just started introducing high power inserts for roughing, pushing productivity by +300% - +800% depending on material and possibility to get good grip ;-)
love your show,
PeacE :D
Thanks for the video. Am so glad I have finished work, I had to work on VF3 and VF6,since 1992. plus old M/C in which I prefer . Have fun, I used to program and operate, they always wanted more..UK England,
Why so many dislikes?? These dudes are out there breaking expensive machinery on purpose! Here's my like and my subscription!
Because you can literally figure this out doing the math with a catalogue without breaking anything
B.e.a.utiful. I just bought a Stellram for my shop, they put me in charge of CNC machining, programming, tooling. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. The old guys love their 20-30ipm. I showed them the Stellram today took it up to 600ipm today.
The coolant made the most difference I'm sure.
Put a larger diameter cutter in an go at less than 50% width of cut, that way the cutter is always climb milling and reducing the force.
Makes no sense if you want to go fast... larger diameter = slower
Are you really gaining ground though? Pushing to 800 is great, but if you're reducing your radial to do it, is it worth it? Especially considering wear on the machine?
Great video though, thanks.
They real machinists calculate their Material Removal Rate vs their chip load.
Cutting your MRR by 25% to get to 800ipm, thats not epic manufacturing, thats an epic fail.
Christian Forthofer i worked with a programmer like this. Run crazy speeds, pop the program in, and walk away. Then get pissed we you bitched that you were changing tools every 15 min. $100 in turning inserts by the end of the night with only 0% increase in production because of all the downtime rebuilding tools that failed early.
LOL technically a little MORE silly video showing how to do it the wrong way and HURT production AND Tool life at the same time
@@pharaun159 LOL I had a "programmer" come in on a weekend with me, turns out we were programming the same part. His took 2.5hrs and used a 6" long R390 to do most of the roughing, 45 minutes on one tool. You actually had to stop in process, change inserts, and restart from the beginning of the tool.
My whole program took 45min and you could actually run it without breaking a tool.
He was one of those guys that graduated the machinist course and thought he was a programmer worth $26/hr.
Yeah...I've worked for an owner like this..crank the piss out of it and in 304 or 316 ss, make it through one or two like a hero and walk away for u to inevitably have a crash later...not his fingernails getting chewed....prick
by my crude calculations 2.7 x .1 x 444 ipm = 120cu in per min. 1.5 x .1 x 800 = 120cu in per min. also I would say that the tool can handle it just fine, the machine taps out.
ive got to be the biggest viewer i come back and watch this often .
Nice
More positive inserts play a massive difference in spindle load also. Can often increase cutting date this way and also reduce load.
Nothing against Haas, but you get what you pay for. This is a 40 taper machine and that little spindle just doesn't have gobs of torque like a geared 50 taper with 35+ HP. Bigger machine would also have sturdy box ways and a design that is simply more geared towards beating the shit out of it.
I agree for the most part, Haas machines are cheap but they're very economical. my old shop had a high end Mori, it was a kick ass machine but had a lot of problems and had to be fixed often. My new shop has a vision wide which is a cheap Korean machine, it is really powerful; 55hp and a crap ton of torque but its maxed out at 7000rpm.
A CAT40 taper, linear guide machine is NOT made for old school/box-way hogging. "High speed machining" works because linear guides wear less overtime than boxways and typically the feed rate/rapids are higher on the machine due to the smaller amount of friction. My box way fadal is maxed out at 200ipm. Over that and not only can the processor not keep up, it drains the way oil with a quickness.
It's like complaining about not getting your corvette to trailer 10,000lbs loads.
Eggs you're wrong vf6 model is a 50 taper machine.
Vlad The Impaler: The machine in this video is a #40-taper and according to Haas homepage the VF-6 is also a #40-taper.
you can get Haas VF-5 or VF-6 at either 40 or 50 taper. It depends upon the individual machine.
For me usually is the workholding that limits the speeds. I can dial in the numbers even larger MRR than that in video but either there's too little material to hold on or poor selection of vises at the moment. Eitherway it costs money better known as opportunity cost. Proper tools always pays off in time and only thing that you can't replace is time so that will always be the most expensive thing in any shop.
Pretty cool test. 162 in³/min @ 600ipm is more than I expected it would do. Those Stellram cutters are very nice. Do you know how low the rpms dropped on that 600ipm pass?
When can we expect a test in steel? :)
I am going to start testing a lot of tools in different materials and machines. This will be a regular feature : Tools of Domination.
Yes we want to see you break shit!!
Nice video and I learnt a thing or two.
The only thing I don't understand is why the emphasis is put on feed rate while there are more variables contributing to material removal.
Making money with a machine means removing volume as quickly as possible, which would mean cubic inches per minute.
The 600ipm pass at a 2.7" stepover was 126 cubic inches per minute
The 800ipm pass at a 1.5" stepover was 120 cubic inches per minute BUT with reduced spindle load
What I would suggest in search for a metal-hogging recipe is to be at full depth of cut, keep the maximum feed rate and play with the stepover. The reason being, you're paying for big inserts but only use .1 inch of the tip.
Any thoughts?
2.7 was definitely a higher HP also... My point was not to bury the tool but just to show everyone the tool could handle a lot... so don't be scared to experiment. My normal feed as seen the the spark plug video is 300-500IPM at Z-.2 which gives me a nice MRR.
𝖘 𝖍 𝖎 𝖗 𝖔 you're right a more complete doc would use the insert more efficiently. Though generally a tool of that size your probably using more for facing style cuts, not so much mass MMR, there's more suitable tools for that
I cut mild steel every day with sandvick r.390 inserts. One thing I've found to save the cutters and inserts is to either be above the screw or below it. Having the cutting pressure concentrated at the thinnest part of the insert leads to inserts breaking. Best strategy is at 1/3 of insert or 2/3. I cut at 40 ipm with 1 inch sandvick and .5 depth of cut using air through tool on my HAAS VF5 XT. Btw, I've been machining since 1980 and the HAAS is the best machine I've ever used. Yes, I've owned Makino, Matsuura etc. HAAS wipes the floor with them.
You should try some DMG, Mori Seiki or Hermle Machines. Those wipe the floor with anything else you know.
"HAAS is the best machine I've ever used" haha
You da man! That is some scary stuff you just did and pulled it off nicely. Since I work with mostly plastic, aluminum, and stainless steel to me this is very impressive. I hope one day I can make it to just half way to what you know about cutting stuff. Keep up the great work as you are an inspiration to a lot of us just starting in on machining.
The video show you fast the thing cut but doesn't show you tool life comparision, the over all money ratio to profit at the end.
You must not have watched the end. I simply was showing the the tool can outlast the machine so don’t be scared and then backed it off and said 400 was the sweet spot
We run at 400 all the time and never have issues at all...
at collage I try to push the haas mini mill to it limit, it got a 6000rpm 5.6kw spindle(7.5hp) I then got it running at 7500 mm/m feedrate which is about 300ipm, I then chickhen out as the spindel is reach over 8.9kw(8.9)
I loved this! As an apprentice machinist this guy can show me da way... haha awesome keep up the CNC videos! coming from washington state! The future must hold more machinists!! lets go!
Man that was smoking, a good job good results and good to see Stuart predicted correctly the outcome at them settings :)
A good test for the machine. If you're up to doing this again, drop the spindle speed to 9k-10k, since it will increase the available torque by about 60% (specifically at 9krpm). The chipload will shoot through the friggen roof at 800 IPM @ 9krpm, but hey that's what the test is for :)
I actually just did this today on my 1996 or 7 VF-6. I was running a similar style high feed face mill on some large 7000 series parts. 7500rpm (max for the machine it's old) at 150ipm 2"step over on a 3 inch shell @ .05doc. Spindle load floated around 100% I was getting fluffy hard to clean out chips. The auger didn't like them...haas... I dropped the rpm down to 5000rpm and everthing else the same. Load went down to 60% so I said ok, more feed? I went up to 240ipm, .05 doc, 5500rpm at 85-90% load. So my mrr went up 62% if i figure right, I got better chips, and didn't kill the machine. So I dropped all my other tools from 7500 that I was using down around 5000-5500 and almost doubled all my feed rates for the milling operations and now the parts are coming out roughly 75% faster. It makes sense thinking about it too. So for hogging I wont be maxing out my spindle, machine just falls flat on its face.
It's amazing to see the limits of a machine , but in real life application , this is too scary. Over 400 it really gets out of hand , if something breaks , even "only" 200 brings your hearth rate up :D .
Now i wanna see some super high feed turning even if it's just aluminium . (parameters like .1 radial depth , feed .05"/rev , and cutting speed about 6000SFM)
You must not have watched it til the end...
i did , but that is just too much for the machine . so what about pushing turning to the limit ?
Kiss peter that is the reason the shop I work at loses money, one guy runs and saves aggressive money making programs the next guy "ooo that's too much" and drops feeds and speeds by 50% and burns up tooling
You didn't show the surface finish after each pass? Also, how well did the inserts hold up under the extreme load?
Awesome video. Just wanted to know if you changed the inserts for every pass?
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if you were conventional milling, rather than climb milling, on the original 2.7" step over. When you were on the 600 & 700 passes, it had that big wall that may have messed with chip evacuation. (P.S. I am NOT a machinist. So if that's an absolutely stupid observation and query, forgive me.)
Also, I would like to see a video of milling with & without coolant. For example, if you did the *exact* same cuts with coolant and without coolant. Maybe with a parametric graph with the spindle load % & kw, HP, and surface footage. So we could see whether or not the coolant makes an appreciable difference, or any statistically significant difference at all.
Maybe even one comparing MQL, mist, HP vs LP flood coolant, WD-40, brushed on cutting style lube like the old school guys use on the manual machines, etc.
That was awesome! Would love to see a comparison of the finishes for each cut too.
The volume of material removed per minute is V = Feed x Width of Cut x Depth of Cut. You were actually removing more material per minute at 500 ipm and 2.7" woc than at 800 ipm and 1.5" woc.
Your an epic man and amazing .... inspiring and brave .... nice demo and its a great tuturial who understood what were you doing ....
Man,turn the quill on.
What a crack up.
Great demo thanks.😁
As a MR1(SW)Retired Navy vet w/16 yrs sea duty .. I KNOW when I see power and Damn Good Machinest ... Wish you could Teach Me.. Where where you in '95?
The us government actually provides a free feeds and speeds chart for all kinds of materials. They do this kind of thing in my hometown. We were told about it by a local machine shop school
Doesn't really apply with 10k+ rpm CNC milling machines that are designed for high speed mass production.
Who would have thought that cooling and lubricating while machining would lower the effort needed....
We just got the same ngc control in (2018 haas vf5xt). I noticed your chip load you see on the screen is reading correctly as a 4 flute cutter. So far I just programmed tool length and dia of tool . Looks like there is more for me to add (# of flutes)
Adding the coolant,I bet, made a difference. I wonder what would've happened if you increased the spindle speed?
very nice tutorials,
i watch almost all of them
What about the finished surface at this amazing parameter? Have you documented it?
Thank you for all your effort to teach. Please let me understand better about the "sweet spot point" This point is between 80'to 100% of spindel load?
Awesome video, You're the man. Is Kennametal your brand of choice for indexable cutters? I'm sure you've tried a variety of brands and know your stuff so I'm just curious. I'm in the process of modernizing my machine shop and I am currently focusing on tooling. Keep it up!
So how was the cut on the 500, 600, 700, fpm no coolant runs? As a non-machinist, I'm curious to see how much snipe or chatter there was on the (Y?) axis end of the material. I assume the Z was rough as well. (X?) went through on all but the last pass, so there was nothing to see there. (Not sure if the X was the plate motion, or if the Y was, but I'm assuming X based on the load factor on the screen)
The inserts were smoked at 500. Coolant is the make it or break it at these feeds and speeds.
Not really... inserts were fine. Machine drew the limits not the inserts
20.3 metres a minute is certainly travelling. What RPM were you running? What grade aluminium were you using? Material has a big bearing.
Insert geometry also has an influence.
All machining is a lot of trade offs between speed, tool use, wear and number of operations in a job.
The rapid traverse rates and speed of tool change also can have a bearing in time taken.
Would be interested in seeing this performed on steel tho.
Cool vid. but need to know rated power of spindle and chipload per flute as well as chipload per revolution! how many revolutions per min? gotta know stuff but cool vid either way!
The Fadal I was running yesterday cant even rapid at 800 IPM more like 700 ipm rapid at most. This is crazy stuff.
Very nice video, thanks for uploading
I want Type3 Software, do u have it?
Why not take a full DOC of the insert cut at a proper feedrate for your horsepower limitations? In addition drop the spindle to a better part of the horsepower curve. This would be a faster MRR because there would be less movement overall. High IPM isn't always the fastest way to remove metal.
Agreed, there are definitely many variables... I didn't want to over complicate things... but more wanted to teach... These tools and machines can handle a lot, don't be afraid to test the waters at higher feed rates... You might just make some money:-)
exactly, these videos showing all this high feed rate is just for show. Backing off the DOC, WOC and increasing IPM does not remove material faster if you need to take more cuts. I would rather see some real stuff that shows how to maximize constrained by machine capability, and where your forced to use a small tool because of a feature. IE: is it worth it to REST or not. ALSO pushing HSM and adaptive strategies.
TITANS of CNC: Academy keep up the good work,as someone who runs large HBMS all day every day it's kinda nice to see something run over 50 IPM.
try that in D-2 and I might be impressed, you can do the same with high speed tooling in aluminum
:-)
Titan, bearing into the spindle going to be affected? This was interesting test!!
The correct approach (IMHO) is to review the torque curve of the mill and run at the RPM that produces Peak torque. then optimize depth of cut and feed rate around that for best MMR. At a certain point the tool stalls or breaks but usually that's to do with clearance of chips from the cut. To improve clearance of chips increase spindle speed - continue to optimize. I was able to triple my MMR over just running the spindle "flat out" and not thinking thru this..
wow, im surprised the surface finish was still very good at that high feed rate, great vid guys.
Have to love the variables, from a parametric programmer👽
Interesting to see this demo on alloy. I would like to see the result if you had tried to do fast speed (ipm) before you had reduced the height with previous cuts. More leverage on part, that would be interesting! Cheers from John, Australia.
What does "stepping in at -2.700 radial" mean? What does the "radial" parameter mean?
Just that the tool is 3.0” and 2.7 is engaged in material cutting.
I find the finish so good on the deep cuts
I’m a precision engineer in Britain working with hurco CNC milling and Centre Lathes and we run our machines about equivalently what you run those but in millimetres
Titan, while finding the sweet spot on any machine is the key to productivity I have this feeling that you wont be happy and you want to make a machine that can actually do 1000 ipm no matter what material you put in its vise !!
You're positive the sudden large load and smoke isn't from the tool rubbing behind/after each insert?
When Haas and Kennemetal give you your stuff, I would rag it out too
I have been machining like this from day 1 in building my shop and that’s why I have been successful... because I solve my customers problems.
You should check my last Vlog on last Friday when I tell the story of starting my shop and sleeping their so I could run machines 24/7.
What I have is because I risked it all and put the work in.
Is this aluminum or aluminium? Can't tell.
I would've liked to see some chip analysis on this, just to see what kinda chips are breaking across the board at the different feeds.
Most can't possibly understand how this feels to see this after miles of machining
This kind of experimentation is fun when you have the time to play like that. I"m curious, when you hit 600 IPM, what was the chip load per tooth?
Assuming a 12k spindle and 5 inserts the chip load was . 01 per insert per rev
i assume you used the same side of the inserts for all the tests? there was probably build up on the inserts once you got to the high IPM
Holy shit that was insane I've never seen anyone push a machine that hard before!!
I work in maintenance so this made me cringe lol
I was under the impression that you did not want to enter the cut right at half the cutter diameter, because it is the weakest part of the cut for the insert. For example enter the cut at 1.6" or 1.4" I could be wrong
I want one of your titans of cncs T-shirt’s! I enjoy watching the videos you guys post!
A couple questions, what grade was the aluminum, and did you step up the spindle speed when every increase of feed rate, or did you run the spindle speed the same rpm for every test?
6061 is what he said at the end.
that was pretty good that's not on common though here in my shop I run milltronics and Hoss's to VF ones and be able to use that I cut a 250 all day long on the aluminum never have an issue
If I ever nerd out and build a battle bot, I’m putting a jaw of life claw to grab the opponent and a moving arm with a cnc motor on the end of it. I’ll just cut them in half.
This dude listened to all episodes of the Jocko Podcast. "We're at max? Good. Back off, reload, recalibrate, REENGAGE!"
Could you try this same experiment with nitrogen cooling the cutter?
Is that a wood router or a metal milling machine???😊
Do your machines come with body armor for the operators ?
Sir , can you please suggest me the best but economical 100mm Dia milling cutter with insert specifications for Aluminium alloy having 10% of silicon...I'm waiting for your reply, thank you
Currently I'm using SDHT04
Why would you lower your material removal rate just to make the feed rate faster?
Axial loading...... He specified directly in the explanation.
I have run 6061 about 40 inches long 20 in wide 4in of depth. all day at .20 deep 1200 ipm similar cutter to the one used here . On a makino horz. At 1600ipm it was to loud for shop and came apart on second part . These videos are like why am I watching . I done this a million times. But I think I like to see which way other people do stuff. Hopefully I might learn something new sometime.
I don't know about all that but I work in aircraft has a Machinist and we run all of shell mills at 300" with a 150-250 Z depth of cut and it's about 90% load pending on our material
400 ipm looked like the sweet spot
Actually it's not a problem of how fast can it run, is how fast can it run without warping the aluminum.
If it goes fast but unprecise it's useless
Why beat a cat 40 spindle like that. We cut aluminum all day with a 3 inch and 5 inch she'll .100 deep,140 ipm rough and 100 ipm finish at 8,000 rpm. Keep in mind aluminum will still distort if you take to much material off one side.
If you notice, I backed off and said 300-400ipm was the sweet spot for my specific machine. Been machining this way for 22 years and my machines run great... my bids win, and my company is successful. People wonder why they can’t out bid me with SpaceX and then argue about speeds and techniques.
My point in this was just to show you that at 800 it didn’t break...
So feel free to experiment so you can increase production and make money.
How much effect do you have in your spindle? Sometimes we just hit machine limit before tool limit.
Can we see more lathe testing?
Excellent....been looking for a quality Toe Nail clipper/ file.
on the 700 run, right at the very beginning, the edge of the aluminum where it's getting cut literally looks like it's molten.
If your RPM is up high enough it should decrease the load per cut. Also maybe a smaller radius shell mill to decrease the speed that the tips of your cutting tools are moving to help them make a cleaner cut.
How the hell are all your machines looking like they just got hooked for the first time no shop I've ever been at have had such clean machines 😳