How to NOT use Panning, Mic Positions & Reverb for Better Orchestral Mixes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ธ.ค. 2024
- Here's three lessons learned from my mistakes with Panning, Mic Positions & Reverbs which will make your orchestral mixes much more clear.
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Original Song: "Thor The Dark World" by Brian Tyler
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Desktop PC Specs:
3.7 GHz Intel Core i7 8700k / 32GB DDR4 RAM / 2TB Samsung Evo860 M.2 SSD
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Libraries I use most:
Strings: Metropolis Ark 1, Cinematic Strings 2, Fluid Shorts, Jaeger
Brass: Metropolis Ark 1, Century Brass, Jaeger
Percussion: Damage, Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion
Choir: Metropolis Ark 1, Oceania
Solo Vocals: Jaeger, Vocalisa
Guitars: Guitar Rig
Trailer SFX: Juggernaut, Cinematic Trailers Designed, Scenes From The Multivere Vol.1, Shredders, AVA Instinct
Mixing & Mastering: iZotope Ozone, ValhallaRoom, ValhallaShimmer, FL Studio Plugins
DAW: FL Studio 20
Big fan of the more frequent uploads! keep them coming!
i did the same thing about kontakt libraries and i do agree on that point.
but for valhalla (specially "Room") in that setting you might want to go for "Early" reflection. how ever they are still super panned, that is why when you turn down "depth" on valhalla you can't hear the difference you except. it's because they are still clashing together and cancel each other (Phase-Cancelation or either just volumes in spaces)
if you are looking forward to make a Solid sound (Pure middle sound) meanwhile wide without affecting other instruments i recommend you to go for early reflection and give up on "Late reflection" (unless you want to go for long decay reverbs)
it will be a big discussion if i want to go through that part. but for long reverb here is a trick:
reduce some mono information from mid-range using EQ will give much more space for your instruments (something between 500 to 1000 Hz will work)
Btw you're doing a great job here. keep it u
-Cheers
Another helpful Video
Thanks for that 👌
What's the odds lol? I was just about to look up videos about panning and then I got a notification that you uploaded a video on this topic haha.
Joseph Burdock he works for Google, which means he knows your thoughts & feelings & everything you've ever searched for.
@@symbolizeofficial1899 It's all starting to make sense now.... 🤔
same here
I am an experienced musician but just a beginner in terms of orchestration with VSTs. I just realized a couple of days ago that I was losing the realistic panning AFTER applying my reverb effects at the Master track level. This video is helping me push the right button to get it right (or at least it has inspired me to investigate further). So, thank you!
I think it depends on the library, but you still pan a little. How much depends on the library and mic placements. That said, your mix with only the pre panned samples sounds great. I'm no expert but I'm an orchestral player. I've been experimenting with the binaural panning in logic and that makes life very interesting.
Technical explanation: Panning with stereo tracks doesn't work how you think it does. Rather than moving the center of an instrument left to right, you're lowering or raising the volume of the left and right channels.
What this means is that if you're playing only high notes on the piano of a stereo sampled piano and pan the track hard left, It's just going to sound quiet rather the piano being on the left.
You can solve this problem in 2 ways: Stereo imaging (might cause phasing issues if you're not too careful), or convert the track to mono with the closest Mic possible and add reverb after. You're going to have less problems with close or spot mics because those are generally recorded in mono where as the room mics are recorded to capture more of the room.
Excellent Video, Alex. Thanks for sharing your continued insight and discoveries. It's really fun and great to watch!
This is some actual good informations that i didn't saw anywhere else (the depth thing mostly), thank you!
Just discovered this channel and... wow, when I've listen the track wasn't panning but was prepanned in the library I was without words... I have discovered a world, thank you so much, I will follow you! I'm new in composing and production music so I hope to learn more tips like this :D
If you're using the NI Session Strings Pro 2 library, your point is correct, and it is also not correct. In that library, the "Traditional" selections do include panning built in. The "Modern" selections do not, and allow you to pan as you wish. The Modern selections default to having everything centered. It still sounds good that way, but you don't hear the violins on the left and the basses on the right as you would in a normal orchestra. I experimented with the Modern selections, and found that if I panned the instruments accordingly, I could get the same stereo image as the Traditional, and it did not distort or mangle the stereo image at all, at least to my ears. I'm not sure why anyone would want to change the stereo image of the orchestra beyond either the normal spacing, or a more mono sound, but if you want to you can.
You can enhance the spatialisation by panning the close mics only and try to blend them with the Decca tree or AB mics depending on how upfront you want the instrument to be.
I spent my entire life learning how to pan the right way on a premixed libraries so alex you’re my hero
On Jaeger (recorded in center-seating positions) i should definetly pan, right?
Hi 2 years later. I almost exclusively use Jaeger and I've noticed it does have panning. I think customizing mic positions would still be beneficial, though.
You just solved my "writers-block"! I centered all the tracks of a piece I'm recording, got rid of the reverb and it started to sound like it supposed to sound. I'll be more careful with panning in the future. Thanks (again) Alex!
very good info, thanks for these tips man!
Thanks for this Alex, this was incredibly helpful. I know iv messed up so many mixes by having the wrong mic positions in the past and just didn't realise what the issue was.
Same here!
In the end, it is by doign mistakes that we learn.
Another big video Alex ! Thanks for the knowledge sharing ^^
Good vid, exactly what I needed as everything seemed a little off. EastWest doesn't usually come with mic positions unless you get diamond versions. I have CCX but neglected the extra mic positions, time to download 50 gigs again ^-^
Grt video!! when can we have a walkthrough of this amazing peice by Brian Tyler amazingly done by you?
Nowadays i understand you're toturials were the best
This is very helpful! So working with a stereo instrument track using something like a spitfire sample library-do you leave the track's default pan setting (hard left and hard right) or do you move it dead center?
Thanks ! Really good tips here. I just try use only close mic in one of my song and it's sound so nice now !
The panning dilemma is solved :o! You rock Alex
This is one of many things I wanted to know! Thanks for the video it clears up some confusions I've been having!
Very useful! Great and to the point! I'm always blown away by your tutorials and I was wondering if it might be possible to show us how you might put together an epic track using only one library such as 'Metropolis Ark 1' or 'Albion ONE' for example. I think I often get distracted by feeling the need to buy new libraries and at times disheartened when I see the range of libraries you have at your disposal so I'd love to see you make a video where you explore the potential of a single library. Many thanks! I look forward to seeing more great content!
I was looking at pictures for panning in Google Images and the thumbnail for this video was there. I didn't realize it was going to be a video, but this was still a nice watch, especially being provided by you. While I'm unable to take your advice about the panning because I use Live's orchestra pack, I can kinda take your reverb advice.
I like your honesty.
very practical useful tips!! really thankful for your sharing!
Hey Alex, I was talking to Daniel Beijbom the other day and he told me that he pans most of his libraries, dry or wet. This helps open up and position the instruments. The panning is obviously minimal. Not more than L/R30, but I feel this does open up the sound a bit :-D Just my two cents :-)
NOW I have an answer...I have been trying to figure out that Panning mystery to me...I couldn't word a proper question to get my answer. VSTs for Orchestra...really don't need panning. THANK YOU ALEX.....And yes I am a subscriber now...you really are amazing. You are doing what I would like to do...even to be close to what I hear from you.ScottyMontreal CanadaNorthern Bordr Music(yes....BordR.....:D)
Good to know thank you. But i have a question. I am currently using the Sonatina Orchestra, since i am just starting out and it is freeware. Do u know if i should apply panning to it or not?
Hello Alex! great video! what do you think about freezing the track before panning (with no reverb at all or the closest possible) and control the reverb separately?
I was encouraged not to do this with Cinematic Studio Strings and CS2 by founder Alex Walbank as the Decca tree and rear mics used were of higher quality than the spot mics.
Great, I was almost in the next phase of my template setup, applying panning on all the tracks. :) Even had researched where instruments sit in an orhestra.
Werner de Jong I think you misunderstood him: he didn’t mean no panning, he meant *no library pre-panning*!
Great Alex, very practical and useful tips!
Oh damn, this video was super helpful! Btw just curious, do you ever use the Kontakt's factory library instruments?
Wow, that's my mistake with panning, too. Thanks a lot for sharing the tips, Alex.
Wow, my Composition professor taught me that I should pan things to create more space in the mix. I'm gonna have to show this to him
In general composition, yes. Orchestral libraries are special in that they are recorded in relation to a point within a space so they are already naturally panned.
Genial! Ya tengo un video para mirar despues. Estos son los tutoriales que necesito! Gracias Alex!
lifesaver.
Really love your Videos😊😊 thanks for all that informative stuff👌😊
Very uselfull Alex. I appreciate that.
Great tutorial
Great job, Alex! The content itself and the way you are presenting it! (No “imitation” of instruments! 😅😉). All the tips are very relevant and keeping it short and sweet.
This may sound very stupid, but I've not really given this thought before. Though, I can't say it is particularly surprising.
Gives me more to consider, specifically, that part about your friend and his panning feedback. Thank you, Alex.
Great idea with the discord server! I'll probably drop by soon ^^
Thanks alot for discord composer channel :) you're breathtaking ;)
Good to know
Priceless info.What library is that for the choir?
If I'm not wrong, it's Metropolis Ark 1 layered with Performance Samples Oceania.
+Alex Moukala Thanks a bunch!Your arrangements are quite something..if i didn't see your videos i would totally assume its some hollywood composer or something.Thanks for the value offer us.
Things to not do while trying to make orchestral music with high quality libraries:
- do not add reverb, NEVER (disabling library reverb is like killing them and adding another one is torturing them)
- do not pan anything (these instruments are already panned)
- do not change mic positions (unless an instrument has to be the "background")
Basically leave them what they are. The music will dound better
Huh, i knew they were prepanned but I didnt think about panning as moving the reverb too, that's actually a really good point lmao, I totally didnt think of that!
That helps a lot:) thank you
Wow Alex, great video as usual, but I'm still waiting for your analysis on this Brian Tyler's Thor soundtrack ;)
I'm a bit late to the comments section Alex, but I wanted to thank you for the helpful video and superb music.
Hello Alex Sir... 🙏 God Bless you
Why are these libraries pre-panned? The actual setup of an orchestra depends on the room and the instruments being used..?
how about sidechaning the reverb like you do on vocal, rather than put the reverb in the track channel then pan your tracks channel mixer , is it gonna still gonna pan the reverb too🤔 ..cause it is sidechain from the track
You're amazing!!!!
Great video. Thanks! One question: some libraries come pre-panned, but to a different degree. For example, in one library, the bassoon may sound like it is only slightly to the right, in another, it may sound much further to the right. When I layer such libraries, sometimes this yields poor results. So, I have started to use an imager to see how extremely these instruments were panned and then adjusted the others relative to it. So, I have panned most libraries used in my template, but only relative to the library which had the broadest stereo field or most extreme panning. I found this got much better results. Initially, I was wondering whether the easiest way to deal with it might be just to recenter all libraries (for example in VE Pro) and then pan them as desired in the DAW to get a more homogenous sound across different libraries. Do you think either of these steps would be necessary or are you generally happy with the way developers pre-pan?
I'd try both.
Take a track, and don't touch any of the panning both in VEP and externally so to use the exact pre-pan settings, and export the audio.
Then take the same track, set up all the instruments in your manually panned way and export the audio.
Confront the results and see which one you like best
wow. This is what I exactly want to know. after reverb, my music sounds too far. wand clumsy,
Thanks so much alex.
I joined Discord.
Let’s say you have a plug-in like 2c audio’s precedence. If you’re using a pre panned library, like cinematic studio strings, is it still useful to then add precedence to it?
Gold.
Alex大师的混响的确经常给的很大，但是很好听，希望还能听到你讲怎么给你的pecussion加reverb
What do you think about MIR 3D Pro?
Is logic pros built in orchestral sampler pre panned? I hear mixed things
Hi! I'm still waiting for tutorial from start (empty project) to finish (with mastering) of making a cinematic song :(
if your libraries are recorded in the same space this is ok i guess. Do you still not pan at all? On twitter recently there was a discussion about this. most composers do pan.
After lots of thinking I bought Metropolis arc 1. DO you think you can do a tutorial on making epic music only using arc 1? Is this FL project used in this video avaliable to buy somewhere or something?
My FLP Projects aren't for sale, but you can download the Stems & MIDI of all my published songs on TH-cam on my Patreon page if you support me there: patreon.com/alexmoukala
Also, it wouldn't make sense for me to use Ark 1 only when I have other libraries that sound better in specific parts (Damage will always sound much better for Percussion than Ark 1).
However, in my cover of "The Landing", all the main Orchestra (Strings, Brass, Choir) is from Metropolis Ark 1.
-> th-cam.com/video/ks2gHdinH9o/w-d-xo.html
so you dont use your external reverb on all the instruments? or just mostly to emphasis certain instruments?
No, as I explained, I personally use a combination of closed mics + external reverb. But I could be more precise by tweaking mics independently for each inatrument. I'd still use a bit of reverb in that case too though, a little it is never bad.
finally hears that there is a discord server and decides to join
hello, i want to ask something. what is difference between using pan in channel rack and using pan in mixer? is it same? or different?
I may be wrong but I don't think there's a difference in sound.
The panning from the channel rack just has effect before the one in the mixer.
Also, you might route multiple instruments to the same mixer channel, in that way, if you pan that mixer channel you're going to change the panning for all the sound coming through it (a.k.a. pan all the different instruments together).
@@AlexMoukala thanks for answering my question.
also i want to ask something, i think this is stupid question.
which is better? channel rack or mixer? i mean your opinion. thanks
CSSS for example has realy obvious out-of-the-box panning, while Native Instruments Symphony Ensemble Series doesn't. That just what I noticed by ear recently.
That's gonna be the case with some libraries, however I guess that for Soloist Libraries like CSSS it's much more noticeable than with Ensemble libraries.
@@AlexMoukala might be true. So or so a great Tipp to learn as a beginner who just started 4 months ago. Binge watched your channel. Multiple times. 🤷🏼♂️
hey alex i always follow you but this is hard to belive cause if i have an ensemble of 8 or 12 tracks putting everything by default will collapse the middle to me panning it's works has anyone try this ?
It depends on which library you're using. If they're modern, professional and thus nicely panned, you won't get that issue.
If they aren't and they're all 100% centric, then you might want to pan a bit.
What if you pan the instrument inside the vst and then you add the reverb? I think the reverb should be centered this way because you don't pan the reverb in your daw but inside your vst.
I mean you pan the reverb if you pan it with your daw but not if you pan the instrument in the vst and then you add the reverb
Bruce L. Phillips I don't know of a way that you can add reverb to a panned instrument without the reverb being panned as well.
If you have your reverbs on a send, you are not panning the reverb. The reverb remains central and the panned instrument will react with the verb naturally.
The issue doesn't come from the external reverb you use on top of the sound, but from the internal reverb of the mic recordings themselves.
Like Nirshad said in another comment however, if you can pan the close mics independently from each other, tweaking the closed mic will have less collateral effects than panning the stage mics.
It makes sense what you're saying, Alex. But I do like to pan a little because I like a wider sounding field. Having said that I don't really use wet sounding libraries such as Met Ark. But I also don't like bone dry libraries such as LASS. Ideally I would like to use all close mics and have total control on the panning and reverb. But close mics alone sound poor, almost like a mono signal, and all the character of the instruments is stripped away. Personally I always favour room mics, but then I add an EQ cut around 200 - 400hz on all my intruments, to try and remove as much room sound as possible whilst not losing the character of the instrument. I can then pan a little without encountering the problems you mention here.
Yes. Good libraries pan and reverb themselves. And that's why they are so expensive in the first place lol
I didn't quite comprehend the part of panning..? Don't pan, pan, pan inside the library? Pan the track?
And I never go with a bigger reverb than medium chamber when I work with Orchestral Tools porducts. Completely unessecary imo.
thanks!! check out my last mockup th-cam.com/video/Mv8Sy1y_H8I/w-d-xo.html CARMEN BIZET COVER
The famous less is more
First
Second xD