I was born in Amsterdam in 1958 and have lived there for 40 years and then got away. From the seventies the government let everybody in and some bigger cities changed that much that whole neigbourhoods arose where more foreigners lived than people from Dutch origin, also where I lived most of my neighbours didn't speak Dutch anymore, it gave me the feeling to be an outsider in my own street. To keep some social coherence you need to say no at some moment but our government didn't do that, it was a taboo. The Netherlands is one of the most dense populated countries in the world but still they let too many people in, you need borders one way or another, I moved away in 1998 and never looked back. The Dutch voted traditionally left end middle right and now more and more they vote for Wilders because the other parties talk and talk but nothing happens, I understand why people vote for Wilders. It's not that the people are intolerant by nature but our government has been too tolerant for decades.
It is a real problem that lots of folks from the outside move to the big cities. They should be forced to spread and stay there for like 25 years. But there are laws that make such policy impossible. So we are screwed no matter how much people vote for folks like Wilders. It is also a problem that lots of natives stay inside and outsiders like to hang around on the streets. We need extreme changes that never a going to happen because of international laws.
Language plays a big role here. Expats don't want to learn Dutch because it's easier to speak English, and say the Dutch are to blame for not wanting to teach them, the Dutch don't want to teach expats because it's easer to speak English, and blame the expats for not wanting to learn. This makes expats create their own social bubbles because they feel the Dutch don't include them, and it makes the Dutch intolerant to expats because they feel expats refuse to integrate into society. If people don't communicate they can't understand each other's perspectives and that creates distrust. Now add to that a housing crisis and tough financial challenges, sprinkle it with a bit of tax benefits for foreigners and you've created nationalism.
@@uncleirohofthefirenation5987I speak dutch, albeit with an accent. Almost every time I'm out and about and try to speak dutch to locals, they hear the accent and switch to English immidiately. .. So there's that.
It's odd how everything is framed ethnich Dutch vs immigrants, when in reality it's also immigrants vs immigrants. Immigration in The Netherlands happened in waves during the last 70 years. So right now immigrant families from Morocco and Turkey compete with newer Eastern European migrants for housing and work.
@burgienl, With all due respect to those coming from non-European Union countries, it is crucial to avoid confusion between the European Union and other global regions. We should refrain from generalizations and not paint everyone with the same brush. From the perspective of the behavior of European guests, we observe significant differences compared to non-EU individuals who have been living in the Netherlands for decades. These differences, indeed, over time have rightfully led to the election of Wilders as the prime minister. However, since the European flag is prominently displayed on my identity card, I feel justified in considering the Netherlands somewhat my territory. This concept of 'community' and 'belonging' reflects in a more harmonious conduct, or at least it should. Nevertheless, it should be emphasized that this concept does not apply uniformly to all ethnicities. While some groups, especially those from non-EU countries, have economically benefited from the Netherlands, unfortunately, they have not always reciprocated with an adequate level of integration, sometimes engaging in criminal behavior. Now, regrettably, the price of this 'violence' suffered by the Dutch is being paid by those who have nothing to do with the events of the past decades. Therefore, it is necessary to underscore this distinction, recognizing behavioral differences and promoting social cohesion based on values that should be more common among us: mutual respect and genuine European integration. G.
Those who came in the 70's like my parents have been naturalized and their children are Dutch. No I don't compete with the new waves of immigrants on the job market.😂
Ofcourse it did. The Dutch and Amsterdam people that lived there for generations where pushed out by commercial international housing. Tax benefits where granted to expats and raised for the random Dutch person. The culture has changed, the honest open Amsterdam and Dutch culture is vanishing. I mean for crying out loud the example of that expat woman that moved in the old centre where everyone would love to be able to afford and then started a campaign to stop the iconic church bells from ringing because her children can’t sleep. That’s an example of the pretentious privileged way that clashes with sober and modest Dutch Calvinistic culture. It lost its iconic essence, the sweet little city as our former mayor said. The high and chatter with your neighbor or local vender. It became mass and random.
People in the Netherlands are less tolerant on the moment, because there is a house crisis. And young Dutch people can't rent of buy a house, because the price is to high, and there is a great housing sortage, so they have to stay living in their parents house when they are on the age of 30. Now they have to wait for more than 10 years. and that is the only reason why they dont want to have more refugees and expats. And also they dont like it, when buying in the shops in Amsterdam, waiting staff is speaking english instead of Dutch. Dutch young people are live on their own from a early age. Having their own house rules, instead of rules from the parents, because that is another generation, and can received their own friends. I have a cousin who have only get a house on the age of 35. After the financial crisis from 2008, our government has made wrong dicisions about our housing market.
I will have to disagree. If you look at the numbers, 1972 was the last year we built enough houses, untill 2019. That's half a century of deliberately building less than we need, as a result of the farmers' lobby and the eco-warrior lobby. You can't fix that in a decade, no matter what you do. Unless you want to go full Stalin or something and execute the 150 richest farmers, confiscate their land and sentence 50000 people to build houses on it as forced labour or something. 😆 And while I don't doubt that that idea leaves Marijnissen aroused, let's not go to such extremes and just accept the housing shortage is a given for the next decade. Worse, if we emphasize social housing (costs more to build than it pays out) now, that'll actually make the problem worse. In my work I see so many housing projects being killed by weird political demands like "Make 30% social housing and lose €2 million on your project". Yeah, it's a company, not a charity, facing a demand like that they will either cheat (such as Change= did in Utrecht to fix outrageous political demands) or they will simply cancel the building and try again in 5 years.
But you forget 2 things, retirement homes have been completely phased out, en fewer nursinghomes, and so fewer social housing units became available, and with the financial recession 2008, there were a lot of construction companies became bankrupt. And the staff from construction and nurse vind other jobs. In that time they didn't build for social housing, because the housing association had to paid the government 1.9 billion a year. I have a cousin on the age of 35 he get his first apartment, before he had to live with his mother. But i see that prices are to high for people to buy a new house. So for you, if people can not buy a house, then they have to sleep in tents on the street being homeless, like in the states ?. Or living in a hotelroom with your family, if you are lucky in the UK. Ofcourse the construction builder has to make a profit. But i think that the government has the task of countering land speculation by the municipality.@@SVEVelsen And every human been has the right to live on his own, and not after 18 years after you have been registered by the housing association. But they can't build social houses, because the housing association had to paid the government 1.9 billion a year.
De kruik gaat ten onder totdat hij barst. Wij delen al veel in Nederland en daarbuiten. Echter botsen wij met extremen, welke steeds vaker ook extreme oplossingen behoeven. Vaak vergeten wij ons zelf, maar kunnen wij niet alles delen. In Nederland is een bodem benaderd waarin wij nu worden gevraagd ook nog te delen, waarvan wijzelf leven. Dan wordt er een regel toegepast. Je kan niet helpen, als er niets meer is om te geven. Wij sparen nu wat wij gebruiken om te overleven. Wordt er meer gevraagd dan zijn wij direct door nee te zeggen. Dat is niet direct extreem gedacht, maar heldere zaak. Er valt niet veel meer te delen zonder zelf ten onder te gaan. Dat behoeft paal en perk. Zo simpel is dit. Dat gevoel heerst nu in Nederland. Bedankt voor deze goede interviews!
"je kan niet helpen, als er niets is om te geven". Waarom doe je alsof je arm bent? Je behoort bij de rijksten ter wereld en tegelijkertijd bij de rijkste generatie die ooit geleefd heeft. Je houdt jezelf voor de gek als je denkt dat je niets hebt om te geven.
Dan heb jij je ogen en oren goed dicht zitten. Nog nooit van overlopen voedselbanken gehoord en/of van mensen met een minimum inkomen die niet meer rond kunnen komen? Tik maar eens op TH-cam in, want zelfs hier verspreid de NOS nieuws, "Armoede in Nederland". Succes ermee, je snapt er geheel maar weinig van. Er niet alleen armoede, maar mensen leven onder de armoede grens. Maar is allemaal hun eigen schuld natuurlijk zal wel je volgende reactie zijn? Je moet je schamen man.@@roelf8044
@@roelf8044 Iemand die niets heeft om te geven heeft niets aan de statistiek die aantoont dat wij als land veel geld hebben. Als wij als land veel hebben om te geven, dan mag er ook verwacht worden dat dit wordt gehaald bij de mensen die zorgen voor deze scheefgroei.
@@roelf8044 Wie ben jij om voor hem te bepalen dat hij armer MOET worden voor iets dat verder geen enkel doel dient? Hij geeft aan dat hij bij de huidige armoede de grens trekt voor fenomenen zonder maatschappelijk nut, en dat is prima. We hebben een extreme woningcrisis. De hoofdoorzaak daarvan ligt bij sinds 1972 tot aan 2019 te weinig bouwen vanwege de boerenlobby en de milieulobby, zeker. Maar desondanks hebben we nu een tekort van een half miljoen woningen en veel te hoge prijzen waardoor hele generaties verarmd raakten, terwijl tegen de huidige cijfers alleen al asielzoekers in 10 jaar voldoende zijn om nogmaals een half miljoen woningen nodig te hebben. Nog even los van natuurlijke aanwas en normale legale nuttige migratie. Dat werkt niet, dat ziet iedereen die eerlijk is.
I have lived in Amsterdam for decades and the Amsterdam of today is not the Amsterdam of 30 years ago. It used to be the city that attracted all the freespirited people. I moved out of Amsterdam a couple years ago because it has completely lost the vibe I once fell in love with.
Well; In Dutch terms, essentially, "tolerance" means "patience" or "endurance." In essence, the idea is: "I host you, I tolerate you (or endure you) because you are an important 'human resource' for the economic gain of my nation." As long as you stay within the boundaries of being a 'human resource,' I'm fine with it. I, as a Dutch person, can be direct with you, but you cannot be direct with me. I decide not to have anything to do with you unless you bring me economic gain (if you pay a ticket, if you shop in my supermarkets, if I pay you a salary because you can do a job that I don't know how to do or don't want to do, etc.). If you want to socialize, don't look to the native Dutch, but find some other expat or build relationships with your fellow countrymen. That's essentially what it's about. Nothing more and nothing less. The paradox is that I, being Italian, can to say it in serenity and with intellectual honesty, while the Dutch (who pride themselves on the virtue of «being frank and direct») awkwardly conceal this simple reality. Or they change the subject when you reveal it to them. G.
There is a kind of strange resentment against Dutch people in some expats. Like we owe you something other than a purely transactional relationship. Like we're not just supposed to accept whatever benefit you may or may not bring to the table (which is something decided by our government and your employer, and something ordinary people can't really judge), but also to lick your ass and say: "Thank you for coming here and driving up the rent, it's so much better now, thank you for doing the job I don't want to do, I'll just go and sit on my lazy chair". In the year 2000, the Netherlands had very few expats, and yet it wasn't a smouldering crater. It's the ideology of "growth" at all costs that brings lots of expats. I do agree it's very hard to break into Dutch social circles. But I can imagine it would be the same for me trying to make real friendships in Italy (or China, or India, or anywhere). I can imagine Italians would also not want to keep entertaining my broken Italian just to make me feel included in social circles. Probably in all societies, the best you can do is be respectful. For anyone who shows up with an entitled mentality, the door is closed right away. I think the reality is just that a lot of expat-country relationships are very transactional. In that sense, it's not that different from the relationship between a tourist and his host country. There is never the implication that you have to be friends or you have to like each other just because you're bringing something. If I go to Italy even as a tourist, the waiters in the restaurants will be friendly and indulgent of any faux-pas I may make. Then I walk to my hotel/apartment and I see "Tourist go home" graffiti. I don't mind, but it shows something obvious: people are friendly when I'm a human resource for them, but not when I detract value from their lives (as mass tourism arguably does by driving up housing prices). The expat thinks he's different from a tourist, and of course it's not exactly analogous. But with both tourists and expat workers, they will add value to some people in the host nation (people in the tourist industry, and the companies employing expats, respectively). In both cases, the vast majority of people in the host nation have no say in the matter at all. I can't judge if an expat worker really brings value, or if his employer is just looking for a tax break. I don't hate or resent him, but I'm not going to sit here like "Thank you oh great expat, for bringing wealth to my poor swamp nation - please come to my home so you can tell me about how bad Dutch people are, because we love directness".
@@No14210 Dear Dutch user, Your response compels me to further comment on the matter of Italian expatriates in Amsterdam, which I have already discussed at length in the video concerning the two Italian girls interviewed. It reminds me of when, upon first encountering these latitudes, I learned one of life's most important lessons: observe as if invisible, but write as if addressing an Amsterdam florist. You see, this notion of a "purely transactional relationship" you write about is nothing new for the Dutch. It's been in your blood for centuries, since the Dutch East India Company made a fortune exploiting what I called "resources imported by sea". They weren't slaves, heaven forbid! They were merely... how shall I put it... "unpaid collaborators". You might say, "But Gregorj, times have changed!" Of course, and I'm the new Mayor of Amsterdam. The truth is that old mercantile spirit is alive and well, only now it's applied to expatriates instead of spices. It reminds me of when I read an interview with Henry Ford. That great man, surrounded by bucolic paintings of the Founding Fathers, spoke of values while outside his factories, the pastoral world those paintings celebrated was coming to an end. You Dutch are rather like that: you speak of tolerance while treating expatriates like walking cash machines. But let's not make this personal. It's culture, darling! Your own Geert Hofstede, who knows a thing or two about these matters, explained that there are "collectivist" and "individualist" societies. Care to guess which category the Netherlands falls into? I'll give you a hint: it's not the same as Italy. And here's the crux of the matter. We Italians, with all our faults - and God knows we have them - are accustomed to a certain... how shall I put it... "warm chaos". You Dutch, on the other hand, prefer to keep your distance. It's not unkindness, it's... efficiency. Or at least, that's what you call it. Do you know what I once read in the memoirs of an old diplomat? "Remember that diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." Well, you Dutch have elevated this art to a social system. But don't take offence, my dear Dutch user. Consider this: isn't it a compliment to you that Italians feel so out of their depth with your emotional efficiency? After all, if an Italian expatriate seeks a bit more human warmth in Amsterdam, isn't that a sign that your city has something unique to offer? And you know what? Perhaps it's better this way. Because if you ever decided to be as "warm" as us, I fear the entire Dutch system would collapse within a week. Now that would be a problem. But who knows, maybe one day you'll discover that a spontaneous smile doesn't make your dikes crumble, and that a bit of Mediterranean chaos might make your canals even more charming. Or perhaps not. Maybe it's precisely this precarious balance between your coolness and our warmth that makes Amsterdam so... intriguing. Like a social experiment on an urban scale. And we, poor Italian expatriates, are merely your unwitting lab rats in this grand social experiment. Cordially, G. P.S. Ah, ik vergat bijna iets. Vergeef me dat ik u niet in het Nederlands heb geantwoord. Weet u, het zou passender zijn geweest, bijna poëtisch zou ik zeggen, om over emoties te discussiëren in de taal van Rembrandt en Van Gogh. Maar wat wilt u, ook hier heeft de "commerciële taal" de overhand gekregen op die van de nationale identiteit. Het is een beetje alsof Dante de Goddelijke Komedie in het Esperanto had geschreven om een breder publiek te bereiken. Maar is dit niet het zoveelste bewijs van wat we hebben gezegd? Zelfs als we over het hart praten, doen we dat in de taal van de portemonnee. Wat een ironie, nietwaar? Maar tenminste hierover, beste Nederlandse gebruiker, kunnen we zeggen dat we het volkomen eens zijn.
The big drawback of tolerance is that it gives ample of room to the intolerant. That having said - Dutch tolerance is generally misunderstood. In many ways the Netherlands have been a rather conservative middle class society where 'tolerance' has simply been considered the most practical (profitable?) way to deal with social issues. Dutch tolerance (gedogen) is more like looking the other way as long as it does little harm. That attitude and the we-are-all-in-this-together mentality has kept Dutch society together over the generations in spite of some serious internal contradictions. But those days are coming to an end. The western world is entering an era of steep economic decline that will eventually test the limits of the Dutch social cohesion as well.
People forget we weren't tolerant, we were loyal to a political and religious 'pillar' of which the leaders cooperated for the good of the country and told their respective flocks to behave. Their was a top-down calming effect from the 'own group'. Don't like that your neighbour has a job and was able to buy an SUV? Your socialist leader will tell you to shut up about it and behave, and if your neighbour heard his liberal leader will have told him to leave it be and behave. These days people set a car on fire because they don't like that it runs on petrol or diesel, or block the road so their neighbour can't get to work. To give an extreme example, as a religious minority my grandfather in Nieuwegein was often subjected to (armed) violence when growing up, by boys of the 'correct church' (hervormd). This was tolerated to a worrying extent, I could tell. When he heard I was being bullied he copypasted his ways and explained to me how I could bring a knife and deal with the bullies: "If they attack you, just pull the blade over their claws like this [sideways motion over the top of a hand], they will back down. Never stab! If you stab them they might die and police will have no choice but to get involved." Ah yes, Dutch tolerance, knifefights because one boy's parents go to a different church and police is all "Meh, armed gang violence, who cares as long as they don't kill eachother" 😆 By the fact that I'm still free to type you can probably guess other family members argued against the idea of slashing school bullies with blades as a matter of routine, but damn, apparently that was normal back then.
@vincenttayelrand, In Dutch terms, essentially, "tolerance" means "patience" or "endurance." In essence, the idea is: "I host you, I tolerate you (or endure you) because you are an important 'human resource' for the economic gain of my nation." As long as you stay within the boundaries of being a 'human resource,' I'm fine with it. I, as a Dutch person, can be direct with you, but you cannot be direct with me. I decide not to have anything to do with you unless you bring me economic gain (if you pay a ticket, if you shop in my supermarkets, if I pay you a salary because you can do a job that I don't know how to do or don't want to do, etc.). If you want to socialize, don't look to the native Dutch, but find some other expat or build relationships with your fellow countrymen. That's essentially what it's about. Nothing more and nothing less. The paradox is that I, being Italian, can to say it in serenity and with intellectual honesty, while the Dutch (who pride themselves on the virtue of «being frank and direct») awkwardly conceal this simple reality. Or they change the subject when you reveal it to them. G.
Amsterdam has changed, and not for the better. Far too many so called internationals. Nowadays I am even forced to speak English in many shops. Just hate it. When that happens I just turn around and leave.
Gewoon koppig zijn. Ik had het ook een keer toen ik naar Amsterdam ging, maar na een paar keer herhalen wilden ze "Ik wil graag afrekenen" best begrijpen. Anders misschien een keer weglopen zonder te betalen, al dat blijkbaar niet mag.
It happened to me, too. The problem is, the more booming economy you have, the more businesses are going to appear, which is essentially really positive but then you need human workforce...Clearly, you don't have as many Dutch workers as you need, so it only creates a high demand for foreign workers but who don't speak Dutch at all. That brings us back to your situation when you enter for example a regular café and the staff does not speak a single word in Dutch. It is like a vicious cycle.
Amsterdam still is tolerant when you compare it to the rest of the country which is changing the last years. We are becoming less tolerant to people who just take lot but don’t give a shit. Many expats buy or rent with their tax profits houses, so younger Amsterdammer have to leave their city. Those expats socialite with other expats and don’t speak the language of the country they live in. We speak english to them and they do no effort to do a step in our direction. As an Amsterdammer you feel a bit misused this way. It irritates. As a whole it’s nice to live in a city where almost every nationality, culture and believe is present. Think about feasts, food and music. But one should living here become a bit Amsterdammer with own cultural background and don’t just live on your island with huge ‘grachten/canals’ around you and no bridges.
Foreign immigrants differ from expats dude! The first category never leaves, and the latter is mainly temporarily in our country (expat, means they got their own country to go back to!) ! Mainly young men from Syria or sub-Sahara are immigrants (often illegal) they profit. Expats are EU or knowledge based people, a great additions. So, yes expats are okay, immigrants not so much!
Corrupt politics and greed have destroyed a lot in the Netherlands, epecially in the big cities. They look more and more like lunaparks for tourists. The atmosphere for the normal inhabitants has changed dramatically, more and more have left the big cities over the years. Unaffordable housing, worsening services by the city (building infrastructure, waiste disposal), unaffordable parking services, worsening infrastructure for cars (you know, the thing people use for getting around/going to work etc.), the disappearing of smaller businesses (only big chains & supermarkets). And then there is the total constraint of a huge amount new laws that make lots of things illegal and you get tickets for? Did you know it is now forbidden to feed a bird in the city of Amsterdam for instance? Or that the maximumspeed for cars is now 30km per hour? Except giving tickets for these kind of redicilous laws, the police is nowhere to be found. Etc. etc.
As a Belgian I must say the Netherlands have changed a lot. From being a beacon of tolerance and broadmindedness for the world it has become a creepy country. The Dutch think they need to lecture everyone on anything, they think they're smarter than all of their neighbours. They even called the covid lockdowns "intelligent lockdowns" while they were no different from those in Germany or Belgium. They seem to admire anything American so much that I sometimes call them the 51st state of the usa. I blame their former prime minister who didn't even have the guts to seek reelection when it became apparent that the fascists were going to win the elections. Mark Rutte belongs in the same row as war criminal Blair.
They are smarter. They are leading the way, the Dutch are usually the first, the initiator of new developments that other countries will copy or try to copy. Covid policy also started out much smarter but soon Rutte decided to sacrifice the Dutch people to not make his international friends look bad by doing something differently. I do agree Rutte belongs behind bars. The Dutch were also the first to see that tolerance will only be taken advantage of to give you more and more to tolerate. The Dutch have had enough and soon other countries will follow.
Like a Spanish, the first time I travelled to Amsterdam/Nederlands, I got hated by being foreigner from Spain. It is funny to see how my Spanish ancestors played with you years ago, you still angry.
Nonsense of course ;) Spaniards are fine people. And 99% of the people here are not even aware of what exactly went down during the 80 years war. They just know that the Dutch won after 80 years of Spaniards trying and trying to overpower us haha we tend to laugh at it more then being angry of course bc we won, but like I said; Spaniards are okay people ;)
@@elzinga87 Of course the only way for the Dutch to win was with the help of the rich people of Antwerp, the same people that changed Amsterdam from a backwater to a real city.
@@SuperDirk1965 haha I see you need a little history lesson.. No problem little Belgian brother ;) in 1585 Antwerp was actually captured which caused Calvinists to flee to the North. Amsterdam was the first city of the united provinces and the capital of resistance again Spain. Sorry little Belgian brother.. I know you want to feel also part of it but your country is insignificant enough as it is ;) haha
I was born in Amsterdam in 1958 and have lived there for 40 years and then got away. From the seventies the government let everybody in and some bigger cities changed that much that whole neigbourhoods arose where more foreigners lived than people from Dutch origin, also where I lived most of my neighbours didn't speak Dutch anymore, it gave me the feeling to be an outsider in my own street. To keep some social coherence you need to say no at some moment but our government didn't do that, it was a taboo. The Netherlands is one of the most dense populated countries in the world but still they let too many people in, you need borders one way or another, I moved away in 1998 and never looked back. The Dutch voted traditionally left end middle right and now more and more they vote for Wilders because the other parties talk and talk but nothing happens, I understand why people vote for Wilders. It's not that the people are intolerant by nature but our government has been too tolerant for decades.
It is a real problem that lots of folks from the outside move to the big cities. They should be forced to spread and stay there for like 25 years. But there are laws that make such policy impossible. So we are screwed no matter how much people vote for folks like Wilders. It is also a problem that lots of natives stay inside and outsiders like to hang around on the streets. We need extreme changes that never a going to happen because of international laws.
Het gaat vanzelf inelkaar storten
Language plays a big role here.
Expats don't want to learn Dutch because it's easier to speak English, and say the Dutch are to blame for not wanting to teach them,
the Dutch don't want to teach expats because it's easer to speak English, and blame the expats for not wanting to learn.
This makes expats create their own social bubbles because they feel the Dutch don't include them,
and it makes the Dutch intolerant to expats because they feel expats refuse to integrate into society.
If people don't communicate they can't understand each other's perspectives and that creates distrust. Now add to that a housing crisis and tough financial challenges, sprinkle it with a bit of tax benefits for foreigners and you've created nationalism.
Very reflective comment. Highly appreciated
Dutch people dont have to teach anyone they have their own lifes and dont have time its all up to the expats and wheter they want to learn or not
@@uncleirohofthefirenation5987I speak dutch, albeit with an accent. Almost every time I'm out and about and try to speak dutch to locals, they hear the accent and switch to English immidiately.
.. So there's that.
Leer de taal of wieberen. 177 nationaliteiten hier, en die hebben allemaal Nederlands geleerd.
@@jiraya350 Ga de stad uit! Buiten de grote steden wordt er gewoon nog Nederlands gesproken.
It's odd how everything is framed ethnich Dutch vs immigrants, when in reality it's also immigrants vs immigrants. Immigration in The Netherlands happened in waves during the last 70 years. So right now immigrant families from Morocco and Turkey compete with newer Eastern European migrants for housing and work.
@burgienl,
With all due respect to those coming from non-European Union countries, it is crucial to avoid confusion between the European Union and other global regions. We should refrain from generalizations and not paint everyone with the same brush. From the perspective of the behavior of European guests, we observe significant differences compared to non-EU individuals who have been living in the Netherlands for decades. These differences, indeed, over time have rightfully led to the election of Wilders as the prime minister.
However, since the European flag is prominently displayed on my identity card, I feel justified in considering the Netherlands somewhat my territory. This concept of 'community' and 'belonging' reflects in a more harmonious conduct, or at least it should.
Nevertheless, it should be emphasized that this concept does not apply uniformly to all ethnicities. While some groups, especially those from non-EU countries, have economically benefited from the Netherlands, unfortunately, they have not always reciprocated with an adequate level of integration, sometimes engaging in criminal behavior. Now, regrettably, the price of this 'violence' suffered by the Dutch is being paid by those who have nothing to do with the events of the past decades.
Therefore, it is necessary to underscore this distinction, recognizing behavioral differences and promoting social cohesion based on values that should be more common among us: mutual respect and genuine European integration.
G.
Those who came in the 70's like my parents have been naturalized and their children are Dutch. No I don't compete with the new waves of immigrants on the job market.😂
Ofcourse it did. The Dutch and Amsterdam people that lived there for generations where pushed out by commercial international housing.
Tax benefits where granted to expats and raised for the random Dutch person.
The culture has changed, the honest open Amsterdam and Dutch culture is vanishing. I mean for crying out loud the example of that expat woman that moved in the old centre where everyone would love to be able to afford and then started a campaign to stop the iconic church bells from ringing because her children can’t sleep. That’s an example of the pretentious privileged way that clashes with sober and modest Dutch Calvinistic culture.
It lost its iconic essence, the sweet little city as our former mayor said. The high and chatter with your neighbor or local vender. It became mass and random.
This.
The sooner expats leave, the better.
People in the Netherlands are less tolerant on the moment, because there is a house crisis. And young Dutch people can't rent of buy a house, because the price is to high,
and there is a great housing sortage, so they have to stay living in their parents house when they are on the age of 30. Now they have to wait for more than 10 years.
and that is the only reason why they dont want to have more refugees and expats. And also they dont like it, when buying in the shops in Amsterdam, waiting staff is speaking english instead of Dutch.
Dutch young people are live on their own from a early age. Having their own house rules, instead of rules from the parents, because that is another generation, and can received their own friends.
I have a cousin who have only get a house on the age of 35. After the financial crisis from 2008, our government has made wrong dicisions about our housing market.
Thank you for your honest answer and elaboration. It is highly appreciated.
I will have to disagree. If you look at the numbers, 1972 was the last year we built enough houses, untill 2019.
That's half a century of deliberately building less than we need, as a result of the farmers' lobby and the eco-warrior lobby.
You can't fix that in a decade, no matter what you do. Unless you want to go full Stalin or something and execute the 150 richest farmers, confiscate their land and sentence 50000 people to build houses on it as forced labour or something. 😆
And while I don't doubt that that idea leaves Marijnissen aroused, let's not go to such extremes and just accept the housing shortage is a given for the next decade. Worse, if we emphasize social housing (costs more to build than it pays out) now, that'll actually make the problem worse.
In my work I see so many housing projects being killed by weird political demands like "Make 30% social housing and lose €2 million on your project". Yeah, it's a company, not a charity, facing a demand like that they will either cheat (such as Change= did in Utrecht to fix outrageous political demands) or they will simply cancel the building and try again in 5 years.
But you forget 2 things, retirement homes have been completely phased out, en fewer nursinghomes, and so fewer social housing units became available,
and with the financial recession 2008, there were a lot of construction companies became bankrupt. And the staff from construction and nurse vind other jobs. In that time they
didn't build for social housing, because the housing association had to paid the government 1.9 billion a year.
I have a cousin on the age of 35 he get his first apartment, before he had to live with his mother.
But i see that prices are to high for people to buy a new house. So for you, if people can not buy a house, then they have to sleep in tents on the street being homeless, like in the states ?. Or living in a hotelroom with your family, if you are lucky in the UK.
Ofcourse the construction builder has to make a profit. But i think that the government has the task of countering land speculation by the municipality.@@SVEVelsen And every human been has the right to live on his own, and not after 18 years after you have been registered by the housing association.
But they can't build social houses, because the housing association had to paid the government 1.9 billion a year.
@@SVEVelsen The housing crisis in Amsterdam started in the 80s
De kruik gaat ten onder totdat hij barst. Wij delen al veel in Nederland en daarbuiten. Echter botsen wij met extremen, welke steeds vaker ook extreme oplossingen behoeven. Vaak vergeten wij ons zelf, maar kunnen wij niet alles delen. In Nederland is een bodem benaderd waarin wij nu worden gevraagd ook nog te delen, waarvan wijzelf leven. Dan wordt er een regel toegepast. Je kan niet helpen, als er niets meer is om te geven. Wij sparen nu wat wij gebruiken om te overleven. Wordt er meer gevraagd dan zijn wij direct door nee te zeggen. Dat is niet direct extreem gedacht, maar heldere zaak. Er valt niet veel meer te delen zonder zelf ten onder te gaan. Dat behoeft paal en perk. Zo simpel is dit. Dat gevoel heerst nu in Nederland. Bedankt voor deze goede interviews!
Heel graag gedaan!
"je kan niet helpen, als er niets is om te geven". Waarom doe je alsof je arm bent? Je behoort bij de rijksten ter wereld en tegelijkertijd bij de rijkste generatie die ooit geleefd heeft. Je houdt jezelf voor de gek als je denkt dat je niets hebt om te geven.
Dan heb jij je ogen en oren goed dicht zitten. Nog nooit van overlopen voedselbanken gehoord en/of van mensen met een minimum inkomen die niet meer rond kunnen komen? Tik maar eens op TH-cam in, want zelfs hier verspreid de NOS nieuws, "Armoede in Nederland". Succes ermee, je snapt er geheel maar weinig van. Er niet alleen armoede, maar mensen leven onder de armoede grens. Maar is allemaal hun eigen schuld natuurlijk zal wel je volgende reactie zijn? Je moet je schamen man.@@roelf8044
@@roelf8044 Iemand die niets heeft om te geven heeft niets aan de statistiek die aantoont dat wij als land veel geld hebben. Als wij als land veel hebben om te geven, dan mag er ook verwacht worden dat dit wordt gehaald bij de mensen die zorgen voor deze scheefgroei.
@@roelf8044
Wie ben jij om voor hem te bepalen dat hij armer MOET worden voor iets dat verder geen enkel doel dient?
Hij geeft aan dat hij bij de huidige armoede de grens trekt voor fenomenen zonder maatschappelijk nut, en dat is prima.
We hebben een extreme woningcrisis. De hoofdoorzaak daarvan ligt bij sinds 1972 tot aan 2019 te weinig bouwen vanwege de boerenlobby en de milieulobby, zeker. Maar desondanks hebben we nu een tekort van een half miljoen woningen en veel te hoge prijzen waardoor hele generaties verarmd raakten, terwijl tegen de huidige cijfers alleen al asielzoekers in 10 jaar voldoende zijn om nogmaals een half miljoen woningen nodig te hebben. Nog even los van natuurlijke aanwas en normale legale nuttige migratie.
Dat werkt niet, dat ziet iedereen die eerlijk is.
The Netherlands is not just Amaterdam......
De rest van Nederland is er al veel langer klaar mee.😂
I have lived in Amsterdam for decades and the Amsterdam of today is not the Amsterdam of 30 years ago. It used to be the city that attracted all the freespirited people. I moved out of Amsterdam a couple years ago because it has completely lost the vibe I once fell in love with.
Well; In Dutch terms, essentially, "tolerance" means "patience" or "endurance."
In essence, the idea is: "I host you, I tolerate you (or endure you) because you are an important 'human resource' for the economic gain of my nation."
As long as you stay within the boundaries of being a 'human resource,' I'm fine with it. I, as a Dutch person, can be direct with you, but you cannot be direct with me. I decide not to have anything to do with you unless you bring me economic gain (if you pay a ticket, if you shop in my supermarkets, if I pay you a salary because you can do a job that I don't know how to do or don't want to do, etc.).
If you want to socialize, don't look to the native Dutch, but find some other expat or build relationships with your fellow countrymen.
That's essentially what it's about. Nothing more and nothing less.
The paradox is that I, being Italian, can to say it in serenity and with intellectual honesty, while the Dutch (who pride themselves on the virtue of «being frank and direct») awkwardly conceal this simple reality. Or they change the subject when you reveal it to them.
G.
Shure
There is a kind of strange resentment against Dutch people in some expats. Like we owe you something other than a purely transactional relationship. Like we're not just supposed to accept whatever benefit you may or may not bring to the table (which is something decided by our government and your employer, and something ordinary people can't really judge), but also to lick your ass and say: "Thank you for coming here and driving up the rent, it's so much better now, thank you for doing the job I don't want to do, I'll just go and sit on my lazy chair". In the year 2000, the Netherlands had very few expats, and yet it wasn't a smouldering crater. It's the ideology of "growth" at all costs that brings lots of expats.
I do agree it's very hard to break into Dutch social circles. But I can imagine it would be the same for me trying to make real friendships in Italy (or China, or India, or anywhere). I can imagine Italians would also not want to keep entertaining my broken Italian just to make me feel included in social circles. Probably in all societies, the best you can do is be respectful. For anyone who shows up with an entitled mentality, the door is closed right away.
I think the reality is just that a lot of expat-country relationships are very transactional. In that sense, it's not that different from the relationship between a tourist and his host country. There is never the implication that you have to be friends or you have to like each other just because you're bringing something. If I go to Italy even as a tourist, the waiters in the restaurants will be friendly and indulgent of any faux-pas I may make. Then I walk to my hotel/apartment and I see "Tourist go home" graffiti. I don't mind, but it shows something obvious: people are friendly when I'm a human resource for them, but not when I detract value from their lives (as mass tourism arguably does by driving up housing prices).
The expat thinks he's different from a tourist, and of course it's not exactly analogous. But with both tourists and expat workers, they will add value to some people in the host nation (people in the tourist industry, and the companies employing expats, respectively). In both cases, the vast majority of people in the host nation have no say in the matter at all. I can't judge if an expat worker really brings value, or if his employer is just looking for a tax break. I don't hate or resent him, but I'm not going to sit here like "Thank you oh great expat, for bringing wealth to my poor swamp nation - please come to my home so you can tell me about how bad Dutch people are, because we love directness".
@@No14210 Dear Dutch user,
Your response compels me to further comment on the matter of Italian expatriates in Amsterdam, which I have already discussed at length in the video concerning the two Italian girls interviewed.
It reminds me of when, upon first encountering these latitudes, I learned one of life's most important lessons: observe as if invisible, but write as if addressing an Amsterdam florist.
You see, this notion of a "purely transactional relationship" you write about is nothing new for the Dutch. It's been in your blood for centuries, since the Dutch East India Company made a fortune exploiting what I called "resources imported by sea". They weren't slaves, heaven forbid! They were merely... how shall I put it... "unpaid collaborators".
You might say, "But Gregorj, times have changed!" Of course, and I'm the new Mayor of Amsterdam. The truth is that old mercantile spirit is alive and well, only now it's applied to expatriates instead of spices.
It reminds me of when I read an interview with Henry Ford. That great man, surrounded by bucolic paintings of the Founding Fathers, spoke of values while outside his factories, the pastoral world those paintings celebrated was coming to an end. You Dutch are rather like that: you speak of tolerance while treating expatriates like walking cash machines.
But let's not make this personal. It's culture, darling!
Your own Geert Hofstede, who knows a thing or two about these matters, explained that there are "collectivist" and "individualist" societies. Care to guess which category the Netherlands falls into? I'll give you a hint: it's not the same as Italy.
And here's the crux of the matter. We Italians, with all our faults - and God knows we have them - are accustomed to a certain... how shall I put it... "warm chaos". You Dutch, on the other hand, prefer to keep your distance. It's not unkindness, it's... efficiency. Or at least, that's what you call it.
Do you know what I once read in the memoirs of an old diplomat? "Remember that diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." Well, you Dutch have elevated this art to a social system.
But don't take offence, my dear Dutch user. Consider this: isn't it a compliment to you that Italians feel so out of their depth with your emotional efficiency? After all, if an Italian expatriate seeks a bit more human warmth in Amsterdam, isn't that a sign that your city has something unique to offer?
And you know what? Perhaps it's better this way. Because if you ever decided to be as "warm" as us, I fear the entire Dutch system would collapse within a week. Now that would be a problem.
But who knows, maybe one day you'll discover that a spontaneous smile doesn't make your dikes crumble, and that a bit of Mediterranean chaos might make your canals even more charming. Or perhaps not. Maybe it's precisely this precarious balance between your coolness and our warmth that makes Amsterdam so... intriguing. Like a social experiment on an urban scale. And we, poor Italian expatriates, are merely your unwitting lab rats in this grand social experiment.
Cordially,
G.
P.S. Ah, ik vergat bijna iets. Vergeef me dat ik u niet in het Nederlands heb geantwoord. Weet u, het zou passender zijn geweest, bijna poëtisch zou ik zeggen, om over emoties te discussiëren in de taal van Rembrandt en Van Gogh. Maar wat wilt u, ook hier heeft de "commerciële taal" de overhand gekregen op die van de nationale identiteit. Het is een beetje alsof Dante de Goddelijke Komedie in het Esperanto had geschreven om een breder publiek te bereiken. Maar is dit niet het zoveelste bewijs van wat we hebben gezegd? Zelfs als we over het hart praten, doen we dat in de taal van de portemonnee. Wat een ironie, nietwaar? Maar tenminste hierover, beste Nederlandse gebruiker, kunnen we zeggen dat we het volkomen eens zijn.
@@GregoryCoccox Mooi geschreven! Zet aan tot denken...
@@willem9538meen je dat!?! 😂
The big drawback of tolerance is that it gives ample of room to the intolerant. That having said - Dutch tolerance is generally misunderstood.
In many ways the Netherlands have been a rather conservative middle class society where 'tolerance' has simply been considered the most practical (profitable?) way to deal with social issues. Dutch tolerance (gedogen) is more like looking the other way as long as it does little harm.
That attitude and the we-are-all-in-this-together mentality has kept Dutch society together over the generations in spite of some serious internal contradictions. But those days are coming to an end. The western world is entering an era of steep economic decline that will eventually test the limits of the Dutch social cohesion as well.
People forget we weren't tolerant, we were loyal to a political and religious 'pillar' of which the leaders cooperated for the good of the country and told their respective flocks to behave. Their was a top-down calming effect from the 'own group'.
Don't like that your neighbour has a job and was able to buy an SUV? Your socialist leader will tell you to shut up about it and behave, and if your neighbour heard his liberal leader will have told him to leave it be and behave.
These days people set a car on fire because they don't like that it runs on petrol or diesel, or block the road so their neighbour can't get to work.
To give an extreme example, as a religious minority my grandfather in Nieuwegein was often subjected to (armed) violence when growing up, by boys of the 'correct church' (hervormd). This was tolerated to a worrying extent, I could tell.
When he heard I was being bullied he copypasted his ways and explained to me how I could bring a knife and deal with the bullies: "If they attack you, just pull the blade over their claws like this [sideways motion over the top of a hand], they will back down. Never stab! If you stab them they might die and police will have no choice but to get involved."
Ah yes, Dutch tolerance, knifefights because one boy's parents go to a different church and police is all "Meh, armed gang violence, who cares as long as they don't kill eachother" 😆
By the fact that I'm still free to type you can probably guess other family members argued against the idea of slashing school bullies with blades as a matter of routine, but damn, apparently that was normal back then.
@vincenttayelrand,
In Dutch terms, essentially, "tolerance" means "patience" or "endurance."
In essence, the idea is: "I host you, I tolerate you (or endure you) because you are an important 'human resource' for the economic gain of my nation."
As long as you stay within the boundaries of being a 'human resource,' I'm fine with it. I, as a Dutch person, can be direct with you, but you cannot be direct with me. I decide not to have anything to do with you unless you bring me economic gain (if you pay a ticket, if you shop in my supermarkets, if I pay you a salary because you can do a job that I don't know how to do or don't want to do, etc.).
If you want to socialize, don't look to the native Dutch, but find some other expat or build relationships with your fellow countrymen.
That's essentially what it's about. Nothing more and nothing less.
The paradox is that I, being Italian, can to say it in serenity and with intellectual honesty, while the Dutch (who pride themselves on the virtue of «being frank and direct») awkwardly conceal this simple reality. Or they change the subject when you reveal it to them.
G.
Amsterdam has changed, and not for the better. Far too many so called internationals. Nowadays I am even forced to speak English in many shops. Just hate it. When that happens I just turn around and leave.
i love it,,maybe get out of your tiny bubble?
Gewoon koppig zijn. Ik had het ook een keer toen ik naar Amsterdam ging, maar na een paar keer herhalen wilden ze "Ik wil graag afrekenen" best begrijpen. Anders misschien een keer weglopen zonder te betalen, al dat blijkbaar niet mag.
Ik begrijp wat je bedoelt. Maar als je in Amsterdam woont gaat het irriteren, mij althans wel.
@@wout123100Nee, laten zij, de experts maar meer moeite doen.
It happened to me, too. The problem is, the more booming economy you have, the more businesses are going to appear, which is essentially really positive but then you need human workforce...Clearly, you don't have as many Dutch workers as you need, so it only creates a high demand for foreign workers but who don't speak Dutch at all. That brings us back to your situation when you enter for example a regular café and the staff does not speak a single word in Dutch. It is like a vicious cycle.
Amsterdam tolerates money and only money.
@eprespacal1
essentially, you told the pure truth using very few words.
I'm perfectly agree with you.
G.
Like any other place in the world, gtfoh
Its getting dangerous and people act like is nothing happend. Unsafe
Amsterdam still is tolerant when you compare it to the rest of the country which is changing the last years.
We are becoming less tolerant to people who just take lot but don’t give a shit.
Many expats buy or rent with their tax profits houses, so younger Amsterdammer have to leave their city. Those expats socialite with other expats and don’t speak the language of the country they live in. We speak english to them and they do no effort to do a step in our direction. As an Amsterdammer you feel a bit misused this way. It irritates.
As a whole it’s nice to live in a city where almost every nationality, culture and believe is present. Think about feasts, food and music. But one should living here become a bit Amsterdammer with own cultural background and don’t just live on your island with huge ‘grachten/canals’ around you and no bridges.
Intresting interviews and takes.
Though blaming the government is a bit dumb.. They were voted in by the people right?
Ze doen steeds niet wat ze beloven. De VVD pleit al jaren voor een asielstop, kreeg de macht en versoepelde de asielregelingen.
The Netherlands where never a tolerant country thats a myth
Well said. The Dutch are underhanded. They never say what they are really thinking unless they can put you in your place. Lol!
Foreign immigrants differ from expats dude! The first category never leaves, and the latter is mainly temporarily in our country (expat, means they got their own country to go back to!) ! Mainly young men from Syria or sub-Sahara are immigrants (often illegal) they profit. Expats are EU or knowledge based people, a great additions. So, yes expats are okay, immigrants not so much!
Wonderful smart analysis
You didnt see the video? Many of these people interviewed are also expats and they live here for 15/20 years
Corrupt politics and greed have destroyed a lot in the Netherlands, epecially in the big cities. They look more and more like lunaparks for tourists. The atmosphere for the normal inhabitants has changed dramatically, more and more have left the big cities over the years. Unaffordable housing, worsening services by the city (building infrastructure, waiste disposal), unaffordable parking services, worsening infrastructure for cars (you know, the thing people use for getting around/going to work etc.), the disappearing of smaller businesses (only big chains & supermarkets). And then there is the total constraint of a huge amount new laws that make lots of things illegal and you get tickets for? Did you know it is now forbidden to feed a bird in the city of Amsterdam for instance? Or that the maximumspeed for cars is now 30km per hour? Except giving tickets for these kind of redicilous laws, the police is nowhere to be found. Etc. etc.
What an utter bullshit… go you live your miserable life in your PVV fascist farmer shit hole and stay there for good
One in Four voted for “anti-foreigner” party , was this video made before election ?
Yes, few days before the elections
Orange is back to Christ 💪
For Amsterdam it's too late....
NOOOO!! We need MANY muslims and asians and arabs and millions of black brothers!
We need them for what?
Crashing the democracy,because islam hates that.
As a Belgian I must say the Netherlands have changed a lot. From being a beacon of tolerance and broadmindedness for the world it has become a creepy country. The Dutch think they need to lecture everyone on anything, they think they're smarter than all of their neighbours. They even called the covid lockdowns "intelligent lockdowns" while they were no different from those in Germany or Belgium. They seem to admire anything American so much that I sometimes call them the 51st state of the usa. I blame their former prime minister who didn't even have the guts to seek reelection when it became apparent that the fascists were going to win the elections. Mark Rutte belongs in the same row as war criminal Blair.
TBH we are smarter than Belgium in general for sure 😅
@@elzinga87 Het ergste is dat jullie dat nog echt geloven ook. Je weet toch wat het kenmerk van echt domme mensen is.
They are smarter. They are leading the way, the Dutch are usually the first, the initiator of new developments that other countries will copy or try to copy. Covid policy also started out much smarter but soon Rutte decided to sacrifice the Dutch people to not make his international friends look bad by doing something differently. I do agree Rutte belongs behind bars.
The Dutch were also the first to see that tolerance will only be taken advantage of to give you more and more to tolerate. The Dutch have had enough and soon other countries will follow.
@@DenUitvreter Oei, kan je het niet meer alleen tegen dat Belgje?
@@SuperDirk1965 tja Belgje, er zijn er blijkbaar meer die er zo over denken als ik 😆 kun je het niet hebben? 😂 Insignificant Belgje 😂
Like a Spanish, the first time I travelled to Amsterdam/Nederlands, I got hated by being foreigner from Spain. It is funny to see how my Spanish ancestors played with you years ago, you still angry.
In their anthem you can still find a verse that the prince of Orange has always honoured the king of Spain.
Nonsense of course ;) Spaniards are fine people. And 99% of the people here are not even aware of what exactly went down during the 80 years war. They just know that the Dutch won after 80 years of Spaniards trying and trying to overpower us haha we tend to laugh at it more then being angry of course bc we won, but like I said; Spaniards are okay people ;)
@@elzinga87 Of course the only way for the Dutch to win was with the help of the rich people of Antwerp, the same people that changed Amsterdam from a backwater to a real city.
@@SuperDirk1965 haha I see you need a little history lesson.. No problem little Belgian brother ;) in 1585 Antwerp was actually captured which caused Calvinists to flee to the North. Amsterdam was the first city of the united provinces and the capital of resistance again Spain. Sorry little Belgian brother.. I know you want to feel also part of it but your country is insignificant enough as it is ;) haha
@@elzinga87 Natuurlijk, ik ga me een beetje de les laten spellen door een hollander.