Since this was an “advice” advice, I would suggest always talking about 3D printers NOT being a office laser printer. It is a manufacturing machine. No matter what you buy there will be setup and tuning.
The term "3d printer" is part of the problem IMO. My FFF and SLA machines are just another machine tool in my shop, like the milling machine and lathe. They do a useful job, but they aren't magic. I see a lot of people buying an FFF machine when what they really need is a drill press and a hacksaw.
@@j.dietrich I think the thing is, with FFF, complexity is free, and as non engineers, people really need that free complexity sometimes because they dont know how to make simpler/more elegant solutions or they dont have the tools to do it optimally, so the 3d printer becomes the every guys hammer to the most things nails.
I agree with the buy one good printer that always works, and then get a second one you can tinker with. My first printer is a Prusa Mini+ which have worked really reliably and never required any modifications to make good prints. Now I use the Prusa to print parts for my Voron 2.4 that will be more of a tinkerer project, and it will feels good to have at least one printer I know works when I really need to get something printed, but still have the joy of playing around with the more advanced Voron machine.
Excellent points. The resale value for more expensive printers is a point I haven’t touched on much that I should absolutely factor in. I hate being asked what printer should I buy because it's such a hard question, and yet there are people who want good advice and know absolutely nothing, just like I did before getting my first printer so it's a question I take seriously and try to give general guidance. Thanks for your advice on recommending printers to new people, we don’t want to lose people to the hobby out of frustration.
Good video. I'm guilty. Bought a "beginner" printer for my nephew. Things that are a challenge to some of us like nozzle crashes, clogged hotends, gunked up extruders and unpredictable print quality completely sidelined him. So there that little printer sits, dusty and unloved. I need to go rescue that thing!
I think you should also address the whole "this cheap printer has better print quality/speed than this other cheap printer" pitfall since they almost always use the exact same parts so it's mostly a question of default profile. I remember being turned off of buying a printer because I kept looking for the best print quality, then I got a "bad print quality" printer by mistake and realized the hardware had very little to do with the final quality as long as it wasn't really really bad. And like you said, the quality out of the box can also depends if you got lucky or not with the hardware.
Great video. Your one of the reasons I stayed with 3d printing. My first printer was ender 3 pro and it was a headache. Fail after fail, spaghetti madness, death blobs and everything in between. After watching your videos few years ago, I built my first voron using my ender. Been great learning journey. Today I'm going on number 6 and enjoying every minute. Thanks for showing the way and teaching us all. 👍
@@itayst Depends on the person. I bought a Golf R with stage 1 as my first car. I don't drive like a bellend though. I would certainly recommend any of the main voron as a first printer, so long as the person building it is capable of it. The discord is great if you get stuck.
there was a lot my monoprice select mini didn't do great, but it was rock solid with a flat bed (at first before I bent it) that got me into this, I didn't change anything on that machine until I broke it and needed to learn it.
I would never recommend building a 3d printer to someone who is not a tinkerer, having said that I've built every 3D printer I own. It took me a month to get my custom Delta Kossel to print anything in 2014 lol
I see this a lot with Airbrushes in regards to minis/scale models. "Buy a cheap airbrush to see if you like it". And it drives me crazy, cause you can make them work if you know what you are doing but people just starting don't have the understanding to make it perform. Buy mid range if it's your first, and if you don't like it it's more likely you can recover some money....
Also csn be seen with soldering irons. If someone is truly interested in buying kits to slider together I would suggest they get a soldering station in the $100 to $200 range. Cheap soldering pencils actually make soldering harder, which is a bad thing when trying to learn. Most soldering stations that are in the price range (like Prusa printers) have decent resale value If the person decides that soldering kits (and maybe eventually their own designs) is not for them. As with many other things, you get what you pay for.
Excellent video! You hit the nail on the head with this one. This definitely needs to be released, a lot of people need to hear this. We'll said and edited. Great work as always! Have a great night.
Great video. Just yesterday after 4 years, I managed to get my creality CR20 pro printing 100mm/s using Klipper on RPi, some mods and your amazing videos. Thanks again. My Artillery X1’s will be getting converted to clipper shortly never looking back to Marlin.
Absolutely love how you tied it all together, doubly so with the recommendations for a newcomer to spend a bit more and get a printer with mesh bed levelling. Does it solve everything? No, but it sure makes your life a lot easier as a newcomer to things!
You are right. That's the reason for that my answer about "what printer should I buy" is always "depends on what do you want to do with that". A tinkerer can buy an ender or something like that to get into that, but someone that just wants to print parts should probably buy a prusa/prusa mini, depending on the budget. My first printer was a wooden CTC diy, that was really crap and I struggled to get it working. Many people had thrown away this special thing and so 6 that hobby before it even began
it may vary - i recommended a Prusa MK2 to a friend of mine and he never could get it to work reliably (bed probe, firmware ...) later he bought an Ender3 and was happy from the start. The manually bed tramming was much more intiative to him.
I started out with an ender 3v2 because I have ADHD and OCD and like to build. My Voron 2.4 350mm build ABS parts were printed with that printer with no enclosure and my parts turned out amazing. The biggest issue i see in the print community especially the ender community is that individuals give the wrong advice when diagnosing others printers. My best sugestion would be to use the all3dp troubleshooting guide for the majority of issues and Ask verified owners of the same printer advice on the printer you are using, not every printer is the same. For instance the Ender community has stepper motor issues and i have seen numerous posts of individuals blaming the stepper drivers for the issue but 9/10 it's an internal break in a wire from the mainboard to the stepper motor.
". The biggest issue i see in the print community especially the ender community is that individuals give the wrong advice when diagnosing others printers." I feel like this almost sidesteps the biggest issue, which is that printers arent yet at the level where they calibrate flow and can more or less tune all the basic things beginners get curious about. There are some which are innovating on that front, but in my opinion thats where progress is too slow. I just think this is a problem that should be firmly in the solved category by now.
13:16 "On your way out like that SMASH button" Love it. Btw I built a v2.4 in November following your guides and the process was really fun, other then the detached Apt garage with tools and a 3rd story apt with no elevator but I digress. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and you were right about the German Shepard hair in the Printer. :)
Great video, I went for an ender 3 s1 and it’s been a great first printer, could not see the value in the prusa. Now I have and ender 5 plus and with the knowledge gained by using the ender 3 s1 I am successfully printing as I know how to setup and diagnose little issues, learned slicer settings and tweaks. I think most people fail in understanding the slicer and that it’s more important learning slicer software as 3d printing is a multistage process.
Im definitely in the tinker catagory and your support videos for Voron and the big community around it is why I decided my first printer will be a 2.4, just finished wiring, onto initial startup and tuning. Another good piece of advice is having a friend with a 3D printer, that's how I got my printed parts.
Oh boy I really struck a chord 😂. I was the guy who said I learned everything on my Ender 3 Pro on the last stream. I completely agree, Nero. My brother owned this printer before me and I have it because he just wanted to print and got frustrated with all the quality issues. He gave it to me for $50 and I got it knowing it was a fixer upper. I'm a tinkerer though and I love working on and fixing up this thing! I started with a BLtouch and now I'm doing a full Ender to Switchwire conversion. Planning a V0.1 for my next build after that! Definitely would recommend my brother to get a Prusa though, it fits his style and your livestreams with the MK3S+ have been convincing me it's a good fit for him
Man you are so right on this. I'm a technical guy and suggest to my coworkers to take the approach you mentioned. All my coworkers don't want to tinker, they just want to print stuff without any hassel. Great video!
U are right. Cheap printers is a bad idea. Unfortunately in Brazil, that is where I live, Ender 3, Bluer, Biqu, etc, is the best option. Not because we don't have better printers on market, but because we don't have money to spend with one Prusa (one of my favorits printer that cost something like a R$ 8000,00) or Voron 2.4, or another really good printer. I love this thing and I'm sad to living here, on country that we don't have good choices because we don't have condditions...
In the last two years we have seen an increase of Brazilians building Vorons on the Discord. We have been gathering data from many Brazilian sources of components, like suitable aluminum extrusions, fasteners, aluminum beds, SSRs, local electronic components shops, and so on, so you can buy them in reais instead of dollars. And even for the components that are only available on Aliexpress, you can buy them in instances for quite a while now. Yes, a Voron is an expensive DIY printer, I won't deny that. But if you really want to build one and have the patience, self-sourcing it slowly in a way that fits your budget is possible.
@@vinnycordeiro no doubt that a v2.4 is an excellent project (before being a 3D printer), but can you really recommend that to someone who never owned a 3D printer before? I don’t think I would… In the same way I wouldn’t recommend a rich friend (if I had one 😆) to buy a 911 GT3RS as his first car!
@@itayst I'm addressing solely the costs issue. It is _very_ common on the Brazil channel on Voron Discord to see people who already have other printers, like an Anet, an Ender, or other cheaper options, who wants to build a Voron but gives up due to the prospect of importing all the components now that we have a very unfavorable exchange rate. For a first printer a Voron definitely isn't a recommended option.
I'd agree with that, a first printer is a learning experience. I'm up to my 11th printer and I'm still learning things that I wish I knew when I first started. Like having a proper tool kit in a place where everything is organized makes maintenance much easier. Or even how proper environment control around a printer is so important to getting a quality piece.
I'm thrilled to hear you say this. I had the same realization a while back, after buying my own first printer 2 years ago. Buying a low-end printer is a great way to alienate most people from the hobby. Sure, it sucks to say "spend $1000 on your first printer" or "build a Voron", so I feel like a Prusa Mini is a good compromise. The Mini is not the best or most capable printer, but it's well supported, a lot of them exist in the world, and Prusa has good documentation and genuine parts.
Excellent video! Excellent advice! My first 3D printer was a US$100 kit I bought on Kickstarter. I finally got it to print, but results were still disappointing. As I started replacing and upgrading components, I realized I was going to be spending more than I planned with little assurance that I would ever be happy with it. I finally put it on a shelf in my closet and bought a Prusa Mini+. The difference is like night and day. Not only did I get great results right away, but it continues to do well after more than one year of frequent use. When I compare the two printers side by side, it is easy to see why. The Prusa is better designed and uses visibly better parts. I have enhanced my Prusa with 3D printed parts and accessories. I also added a Raspberry Pi 3B+ for Octoprint. I enjoy tinkering, but I hate being required to tinker with things just to get basic results.
I started with a Creality CR-20pro and kept fixing issue after issue until I'd had enough and sold it and bought a Prusa Mk3S. Have two Prusa Mk3S now. Wish I'd have started with the Prusa. Hopefully starting on a Voron 2.4 before too long.
My friend wanted a printer and I recommended him a Prusa mini or if he wanted to tinker an Ender 3 s1, he wanted quality so I told him get the Prusa mini but he didn't want the time and got the s1 anyway, he got lucky and he's not having any issues but I wish he would have listened
I have always recommended the flashforge finder for beginners. Very friendly slicer, glass bed, direct drive, fully assembled and it teaches bed level with the sensor.
Yeah, I pretty much agree. I am very much at the tinkerer end of the scale and I started with an Ender 3 V2, which was good enough. My brother, who is at the "just wants it to work" end of the scale now has that Ender 3 V2, but I have had to do a lot of upgrades to make it usable for him, easily doubling the price of the printer. If I was doing it again, I would have started him with something like a Prusa Mini.
I steered away from bed probes for a year. And after many types of switches that were not consistent. And I spent $100 plus on beds. I finally got a CR Touch for $27.00. Difference is night and day. Would never go back. Been 6 months and still using the same magnetic flex bed. With glue stick made for 3d printing. Clean up using warm water with non abrasive pad.
Just like with project cars you need a Daily driver. If you want to wrench on printers you need a printer to print parts for your other printer. I started out with a zortrax M200 in 2016. Insane expensive machine, because i needed a tool not a hobby. Now with its stone age close source firmware with its support dropped in 2019 it was time for something new, as i could not keep up with all them fancy features needed for some more exotic materials. But it was always good to have this constant, knowing that if i hit this button i can get the part that i need. Maybe with sub optimal slicing and in a unnecessarily slow pace, but reliability is king.
I'm looking for something that will just print, but I don't want to print decorations; I'd like to print initial CNC machine parts, woodworking jigs, electronics project casing, fixtures. Seems like I'll need/want to mostly print ABS, and that takes us to enclosures (more expensive) and even with Bambus being enclosed but questionably with all the electronics within that enclosure. What's a good mid-price solution for printing abs?
@12:35 Best statement out of the whole video, I agree totally, I always recommend a good quality budget printer from a good brand as your go too, and mess withe all the cheaper ones, this is why I usually recommend the Qidi-Tech's the X-Smart or X-Max will print almost any material out of the box without any mods, and use this printer to print the upgrades you need for all your other projects.
12:20 yeah, learnt that the hardway. a used ender 3 sure was a challenge to get started. cheap enough for but constant issues and mistakes on my part, but thankfully i made those mistakes on a about £100 printer. i do enjoy tinkering but it took me a while even to get actual finished prints. i could understand someone ditching the hobby if they wanted to just print things. at this point my ender 3 is closer to a voron switchwire with the eva 2 hotend. having that spare printer would have been nice at points. but i had limited room and something like the prusa mini wasnt even out. maybe its time i get a voron v0 kit
I do recommend to people who want a 3d printer, something like the ender 3 s1 or a prusa, depending on their budget. I started with the ender 3 and after a lot of tinkering and upgraded parts got it where I wanted but thats not true for the rest of the world. Most people just want something that works great out of the box
I recently got a coupon for an ender 3 pro from micro center for $99, had no issues assembled out of the box and am having a blast printing stuff. Most recent print was the replacement bolts and nuts for my toilet seat.
LOW TEIR - Qidi, MID RANGE - Snapmaker 2.0, Voron 2.4. HIGH TEIR - Ultimaker, Raised 3D E2 / E3 CF/ Pro 2 & Pro 3, BUSINESS TIER - Markforged and there is so many more there
My first printer was an Anet A8, think i got it in like 2016? Had 2 ugly episodes with it 1. Heater cardtrige fell out because the set screw came loose 2. Cable to the bed heater showed signs of burning. Changed the cable out and soldered it in place It still lives today
I think I got lucky with my Anycubic Mega X and smashed out a bunch of Mandalorian helmets. Fixed, modded, and Klipperised it, then got a Prusa mini + kit, got all the bondtech upgrades and swapped the bowden for capricorn, Now I'm just finishing the cosmetics and tuning on a Voron 0.1 waiting for the space to make a big Voron Trident/RatRig vcore. Probably will klipperise the mini with an aftermarket board so I can power lights and have colour macros and stuff, as well as accelerometer input shaping. The first question I ask is how handy are you, and do you want a tool that works or a tinkering hobby that occasionally will be a tool.
I really dig that style of video :D You feel so much more natural, and closer to who you are on your livestreams. IMHO this is the way to go for You, work on it ;)
I agree with this. I bought an Ender 3 V2, that actually seemed to work decent, but I also spent an extra $200 in addons and upgrades to get me to the position to get it to work decently and consistently. For basically the same price, I could have had nicer printer out of the gate. That said, I don't know if I personally would have gotten into the hobby with that kind of initial cost on something that I didn't really know anything about.
Does that "nicer printer" even exist? There's a big noman's land where printers get successively more expensive but not actually better. And you don't need hundreds of dollars of upgrades. An Alu extruder can be had for like $4.
I did this same thing! Upgrades are bed springs, replaced bowden tube coupler, CRtouch, and dual z axis. Still looking at octoprint from spare parts and maybe a better driver PCB that supports pressure advance. I’m currently out the door for under $350, and I consider the dual z unnecessary.. the slop in the gantry was just annoying me but it does seem to have improved things a little. The biggest thing was being _very_ careful about the build and squareness, and the bed leveling setup. I consider this to be an expert builder level job. It’s not something that a kid or somebody who slings spreadsheets for a living is probably going to be able to hit first time.
My family has no idea why I just keep printing 3D printer parts lol. I’m not sure why either but I do, and I love it even messed with hand making a hotend mount and heatsink with a saw, jb weld, and M3 screws.
I fully agree, i bought a geeetech i3 kit in 2016, replaced it with an ender 3 pro in 2020, on which i proceded to replace nearly every single part. Voron 0 next, parts are underway
I think this is great advice. I made the error of buying a Sovol SV-01 because the lead time on Prusas was 6 months at the time and I couldn't afford an i3. It's garbage. It never gets used. I am now spending all kinds of time I don't have trying to make that one usable in my shop for larger stuff. When the Prusa Mini+ arrived, it worked right out of the box. It rarely has any problems, and the only problems it ever has are clogs, which Prusa made it very easy to clear. I can't recommend that printer enough. And it prints TPU just fine, no direct drive needed. I've now replaced nearly all the parts on the Sovol so it was basically a $300 box of badly pre-assembled v-slot extrusions and a Meanwell power supply. And I am not 3D printing to be a tinkerer, this has all been a huge waste of time so far. I print replica vintage parts for my repair business. Not interested in printing fan shrouds and benchies. I certainly would have been better off never having bought the Sovol, but now I'm stubborn AF and am not going to give up until it's working.
Another point to get a printer that works out of the box is, you get to learn what situation and/or settings are consider good and normal. For example, what a leveled bed looks like, how a good first layer feels, or even how the printer sounds. So you have a good reference point to go back to and find the cause when you have a problem.
I bought an elegoo Neptune 2s as my first. It's needing some tinkering and I've already had to replace the mainboard fan on it. Should I have gone with a Prusa as my first? Probably! But fortunately for me I've discovered that I enjoy tinkering and would really like to build a Voron next! 😅
Bro, this! I fell into the budget-printer trap, got an Ender 2 Pro, and it's taken me just about a literal year to start seeing quality prints. I'm stubborn, curious, and a hopeless nerd, so I made it -- it helped that my wife was also in it, if only for the little, plastic critters. I'm seeing my budget printer come up in the r/3dprinting holiday buying thread, and it's so jarring! No, you DO NOT want that! I don't know what good options are to recommend instead, but this is a surprisingly resilient trope; it just won't die, despite being so very wrong. Thanks for speaking against it!
Way too much emphasis on bed levelling! I have a glass bed and rarely touch the levelling screws. I don’t apply forces to the bed though. I use an adhesive, glue stick is a bit strong for me so I use hairspray. I use a brim for narrow edges. My glass isn’t perfectly flat so I did install Jyers but didn’t really see a big difference in my printing, probably because my prints don’t span a large area on the bed. Beginners tend to use a spatula too hard, get rid of that large steel spatula! Flexible beds need adhesive anyway and are easy to damage the PEI surfaces with that spatula.
I started with SLA, and my wife got a flashforge creator pro when I got my Mars. We had so many issues with the creator pro that it steered me away from fdm printing for a while. Don't get me wrong, the creator pro is a good printer. But maintenance on it is a nightmare. The nozzles fused to the heater blocks for both heads and we are going to have to replace both hot ends entirely to get it working again. Anyway since I no longer have the right space to set up my Mars, we both grabbed ender 3 pros from microcenter and have only had minor issues with them. And we are lucky in that aspect because I am very much aware of how inconsistent the quality of these things are and how much they reduced the quality of a lot of the parts. I'm fortunate in that I like to tinker and have some technical knowledge (I got into 3D printing because I am an artist) so when things do go wrong, I am happy to sit there for hours tweaking things and learning. And I definitely understand that that experience isn't for everyone. I appreciate when people take that into account because as printing becomes more accessible, this is one of the growing pains.
Great advice. I started with the A8 and eventually got some great prints but a lot of work went into it. I then got a Tevo Tornado and had nothing but problems. Eventually I got that working well but so much trouble shooting. Would have saved money and got more with a Purse (I assume). Xmas is only 7 months away!
I wholeheartedly agree. I've been feverishly researching the topic for the last 3 month while I was saving up money for my first printer after finding a really cool model I wanted to print. I came to a similar conclusion: get something with all the features that got mentioned. Getting that cheap 100$ printer and upgrading it to what a good starting printer would be, costs as much as fully kited printers with those features already. I ended up going with the Ender 3 S1. I know Ender is not a good company when it comes to suppot. Though from all I've been able to gather is that, if the printer is not faulty, it prints really well for the price it costs. And since tinkering is partly reason why I'm going on this journey, I'm fine with taking the risk. Though tbf, buying in Germany through a reputal seller and government enforced buyer protection against faulty products helps. Now it's its second day printing using klipper/Fluidd on my old crummy laptop (curse you raspberry pi shortage) and I couldn't be happier =D
Glad you made this video. I bought a CR-10 as my first printer (still only printer too) and haven't used it very much because I found that there was some issue that caused the Z to be inaccurate (basically the Z level differs depending on if you go up to it or down to it and it hurts the first layers especially badly). I went through replacing the lead screw, nut, and the roller wheels but none of them worked. My last guess is that the Z-axis stepper has give in it that causes it to move a little bit under load so it doesn't end in the same height. I do still want a 3D printer but I want one that just works. I want accurate prints and auto bed leveling. It's hard to find people actually recommending printers that are good quality at reasonable prices. It's always get this cheapy that you can fix up or get this crazy expensive printer but no in between.
For reals; that Prusa MK3S+ is worth every penny, if for no other reason that it handles a lot of different materials turnkey out of the box. I blew it for a long time ("it's so cute; it has printed parts, how good could it be" and similar statements). Make no mistake, it's a monster of a machine, with LOTS beneath the surface, and really does outperform even more expensive machines. There are many machines that look like it; there's nothing actually behaves it though.
I started with an ender 3 pro and had nothing but problems. I honestly thought it was me for the longest time and got so discouraged. I saw all these people with a prusa just printing and not having any of the issues I had, so I bought a prusa and sold my ender. I can now confidently say my ender was a lemon. I've been printing for years with multiple prusa's and Voron machines and always cringe so hard whenever someone says they just bought an ender cause I remember my experience. Obviously some have great experience with the ender 3, but some like me get a lemon and get very discouraged.
Agree Completely! Well reasoned video. My first 3D printer was a low-cost kit that never printed well, and the power supply wires were warm to the touch…that ain’t right! Second printer was a Prusa MK2. Good components, good quality, great instructions, great support! Now I’ve built 7 printers. While something like an Ender 3 CAN be an excellent value, it takes a tinkerer mindset, and someone offering help over your shoulder.
When I started out about 10 years ago, I got myself a TEVO Tarantula, it was the worst decision I've done to be honest. It's not been running for more than 10 hours total, despite throwing upgrades on it. Currently I've got an assembled but not tuned Voron 2.4 350 that I'm struggling a bit with my motivation to get it running. I'm still not sure if it is something for me. I've got a resin printer that I use a bit more and enjoy since it spits out miniatures for me to paint though.
yeah them tevos were a pain i bought one of a guy who couldn't put it together after a few upgrades i would pull good prints off it .. i still think ender 3s are a good starting point unless you want to only have to hit the print button
My number one printer is the flsun qq-s pro delta. Easy to put together, fast, rarely level the bed with included level device, auto leveling, easy to convert to klipper, 255mm X 255mm X 365mm. Easy to use, little maintenance, latice glass plate sticks to print, auto releases print when cooled, metal titan extruder, touch color screen, a few hundred dollars. Down side: can't have direct drive extruder.
Great Content, I recommended 2 different printers to 2 different people the other day, they talked to each other then moaned at me for being “inconsistent”. I got them together and got them to tell each other what there goals were and just how different their capabilities were and all of a sudden I wasn’t such an a-hole. There is no perfect printer for everyone, otherwise it would be the only printer out there.
Best tip, Don't buy your first printer from bangood, Alibaba, ebay, or Amazon. Buy it direct from the manufacturers. If something happens, you can contact the company directly. There are so many 3rd party sellers that look legit but are just folks that buy the cheap machines in bulk and will only able to offer you a refund, if your lucky
I am in the camp you describe. I basically bought an Ender 3 v2 and had endless problems. So I did the things people recommended like upgrading this and that. Well it did eventually fix it (turns out I had a bad motherboard that leads to layer shifts and other problems). I will never ever support Creality again. Their quality control is too low. Wish I'd spent the money on a Prusa. I love tinkering but I also need a workhorse and you don't want your only printer to be the tinker printer.
My Anet A8 got me into the hobby, i modified it to the teeth and then upgraded it to an AM8 with an SKR 1.4 and Voron AB :D Was a fun experience and kept me entertained for 4 years, but now with a Prusa Mini and an Prusa Bear Clone, i will not go back. Best printer I own is my V0.1 and all 3 are really reliable
Am in this situation (sort of) at the moment. Been interested for many years. I think it's more about the tinkering with the printer for me than it is about printing but i do need the printed parts to do my other tinkering... And i'm 40 and that removes a lot of patience for faff when what i need to do is learn about 3d printing. With this in mind and the recent black friday sale, I bought an Ender S1 Plus, on the basis that of all things, build volume (footprint) is the hardest thing to modify on a printer. I haven't even powered it up yet, let alone levelled the bed, and already i'm learning a lot of specifics from people like You and having mind blowing ideas for new direct extruder designs, and such. Hope I didn't make the big mistake already!! haha
Happen to see this on my recommended after the stream, and something I now feel like adding is specifically nozzle based bed mesh levelling. I honestly think that not having to set the z offset while no big deal to you or I is such a game changer for a complete beginner who just wants a print to print. Now maybe game changer is too high praise, but honestly I even value it as I have now 2 printers which have nozzle based and I have literally never set z offset. I havent needed to. The printers level themselves and just print. In my opinion, this is one of those features I think should become common place. I know the strain gauge solution doesnt work for direct drives, but bambulab does it with sensors under the bed. I think that solution is probably applicable for many printers, especially non bed slingers. Thats the future I want to see.
Great points! I agree with you 100%. There are so many different variables and use cases so it's different for everyone. I really like the kingroon kp3s for a starter and I have recommended that to many noobs.
I got my first printer some 7 years ago, a mendel style acrylic set. It was very cheap but a great learning experience. Over the time a had a few others and now i have a Prusa Mk3s+. Nowadays i want to print and not waste my time with tinkering every other day. At work we have a Ultimaker S5(which i´m taking care of) and its a worse than my Prusa at home for 6 times the price. The one thing the Ultimaker is great at, is the ecosystem as we also have the material station, and together with cura it´s very nice and easy to use, without setting things up (like octoprint).
@@zoetmoments5625 Very big company, so we are very limited in regards of available suppliers, especially 3D Printers. I would love to build a Voron 2.4 at work (I'm working on one at home) but getting all the parts is even more complicated.
TL:DR-Got an E3S1, prusa too expensive, wanted machine to work with minimal tinkering. Realize I want to tinker a little. Want to build a ratrig to build and tinker and get a prusa to replace my ender for a reliable just works printer. Also want to try recycling and making some filament for home personal use. Typical 3d printing with pla isn't as fun as it was starting out and I want to try new, weird, or niche things. This is why I went with the ender 3 s1, yea it was a new model I took a gamble on that. It panned out well for me though. After weeks of research I wanted to get a prusa but the cost was too high. I don't mind tinkering but I didn't know if I wanted to tinker with a printer or not yet before actually using one. So that cut out the Ender 3, v2, and possibly pro. I wanted something that just works for my first one but I didn't have a ton of money. The S1 seems to check all those boxes, it has a lot of the original ender problems solved well enough, has a flex plate, direct drive extruder, it's very quiet, and half the cost of a prusa at my time of purchase. I haven't had to change anything on it since I got it months and months ago. Now that I have a bit of time and almost every youtube video and reddit post watched and read on 3d printing lol, I know what directing im going. I have an all metal hot end coming for my s1 and that's as far as that printer is going. I want to save up and build a ratrig minion, get it working then buy a prusa for a stock reliable long term use machine. Then either sell or shelve or turn my ender 3 into some kind of a project. I'm also getting very intrigued with recycling and closed loop systems. I'm working on starting a design and learning what I can about making a pullstruder petbot type system, and easier to obtain filament options not necessarily meant for printing such as string trimmer line, and I'd like to try messing with and making hdpe with a petbot style system against all warnings about how nearly impossible it is to print with. I want to try messing with it on my own.
First I had i3 clone that was a nightmare until I updated the for almost the same amount of money. Now I so happy with my voron 2.4 since I tuned it right every print is a success.
I have a SNAPMAKER 2.0. but i really want to build a Voron 2.4 for business use but the part source seem like it will be a nightmare and am not sure i want to spend time tuning it so much but I wount mind if there was a great guide to follow
From ever thing you said it reassured me in going with the SNAPMAKER 2.0 A350T it has all you mention and more (very MODULAR) excellent for people new to manufacturing and tinkering and does not wish to spend time tinkering with the UNIT itself.
I took a chance on a highly discounted printer sold on Amazon for 130$ and have been really pleased by the results. It can even handle TPU. It's an XTZL3D XT-P-S1 "folding" printer with dual Z motors and an all metal hotend. Surprisingly good for a machine that uses a Bowden extruder.
I am a thinkerer. And I love modifying printers than printing stuff. I bought a 2nd hand e3v2 for 120usd with no problem. Modified it to be like The E3 s1 pro. And i love the process than the endresult. Now its one the most reliable printers in my farm.
I agree with the three categories of people. I wolud make another filter to narrow dawn the recomendation. The background of the person on mechanics and electronics. No knolewdge at all will keep you very frustrated on the first 4 months or so.
Got an ender3 and spent hundreds of hours adding parts and changing stuff and still occasionally wont print right. My criteria for 3d printers after all these times tinkering: High quality flat bed (one of the most expensive part) Flex plate Bed probe for 200mm+ beds Z axis that's supported adequately For a backup printer while playing with the first one I would get a kingroon kp3s. Haven't failed me yet
@NERO 3D Why was it so obvious that when you finally build a Prusa you will end up recommending it to newbies... 😄 I agree 100% - it is the correct and possibly the best choice!
If you`ve been following the livestreams ive brought up this topic a few times in the past, and this is kinda spurned on more by the recent KP3S unboxing I did
Almost two years ago I decided I was going to push into 3d printing and started saving for a Prusa MkIII. Four months later, a local-ish store had Ender-5s on sale for Black Friday, and this dropped the price to less than what I'd already saved. So I bought the Ender-5. Within 3 months, I really, really wished I'd made the other choice. And an Ender-5 isn't an awful printer! It mostly works, most of the time. Moreover, by that point I was aware there were things I'd want to do to tune it up and I felt confident I could manage them. For the most part, I have. But I've also sunk a lot of extra money into the damn thing, and while it's awesome when it's working, it's sooooo frustrating when it doesn't. Indeed, it's down right now because something weird is happening with the BLTouch and I'm just thoroughly fed up. It's not all downside. The Ender-5 confirmed for me that I do like having the ability to manufacture my own parts; it's led me into very simple CAD work, which is fun; and I'm becoming more and more able to deal with the problems. But the level of stress and frustration this damn thing has caused me is so much worse than just saving for another four or five months. :/ It did let me explore whether I like 3d printing (yes) and whether I want to be a tinkerer (not really). So that has some value. But mostly I'm just done with fighting with the damn thing every few weeks. I've got a pre-order in for a Prusa XL, and I'm looking forward to having a printer that just effing works. Anyway, thanks for this - I'm also fed up with the old souls who are tinkerers constantly recommending fixer-uppers to people who clearly just want an easy way to machine simple parts. So it's nice to see someone putting forward a contrasting view.
After getting too many people into this equipment I hate having to help with all the little questions. I agreed with your thoughts. I have had great luck with the anycubic vyper as a starter printer, but like what was said not all size fits all. ABL is life for newbies. ( I have 3 kp3s and I put ABL on those. I'm that lazy). Also having a good upgrade path is important. Giving them a crappy board sucks. for if they want to upgrade something it's a lot cheaper to do so.
I understand your view and kind of agree with it. However, I don't regret having started with a VERY cheap 3d printer kit, which I prefer not to say the name (but starts with an "A") :). I really learned a lot following that path. So yeah, as you said, it depends on the user profile and the use she or he looking to get out of the printer.
First order of business on any bowden printer is to convert to direct drive. I struggled for several years with print quality on my CR-10 and nothing else made anywhere near as much improvement. And it only took one simple printed piece to do it. I would have done it so much sooner except everything I read said bowden could perform just as well when properly tuned. Not so. The slack in the tube causes a time delay between extruder movement and hotend pressure, so the only way to make it work would be to shift the time of execution for all extruder commands, but I don't think there's any practical way to do that.
Stuck prints don't chisel. Put a few ice cubes inside the print or around it (paper-towel barrier). The temperature change pops off the print. I dislike flexi plates and only print on glass. I use the blade out of a box cutter to get the brim if needed, but just waiting until the print is cool... like completely cool 28C, it usually slides off.
Yeah gotta ask what they are looking to do, though I had no idea my sole purpose for printing would end up being printing 3D printing parts lol. I got stuck in the upgrade thing, but it really took me through the rabbit hole into firmware editing and custom firmware, using a ultimain2 board on a crazy bed slinger that has Y axis on the rails from an old baby gate lol(still in the works)
Since this was an “advice” advice, I would suggest always talking about 3D printers NOT being a office laser printer. It is a manufacturing machine. No matter what you buy there will be setup and tuning.
The term "3d printer" is part of the problem IMO. My FFF and SLA machines are just another machine tool in my shop, like the milling machine and lathe. They do a useful job, but they aren't magic. I see a lot of people buying an FFF machine when what they really need is a drill press and a hacksaw.
Good point, even Prusa have fail prints, and His firm print ALL the time
@@j.dietrich I think the thing is, with FFF, complexity is free, and as non engineers, people really need that free complexity sometimes because they dont know how to make simpler/more elegant solutions or they dont have the tools to do it optimally, so the 3d printer becomes the every guys hammer to the most things nails.
I agree with the buy one good printer that always works, and then get a second one you can tinker with.
My first printer is a Prusa Mini+ which have worked really reliably and never required any modifications to make good prints.
Now I use the Prusa to print parts for my Voron 2.4 that will be more of a tinkerer project, and it will feels good to have at least one printer I know works when I really need to get something printed, but still have the joy of playing around with the more advanced Voron machine.
Excellent points. The resale value for more expensive printers is a point I haven’t touched on much that I should absolutely factor in. I hate being asked what printer should I buy because it's such a hard question, and yet there are people who want good advice and know absolutely nothing, just like I did before getting my first printer so it's a question I take seriously and try to give general guidance. Thanks for your advice on recommending printers to new people, we don’t want to lose people to the hobby out of frustration.
Good video. I'm guilty. Bought a "beginner" printer for my nephew. Things that are a challenge to some of us like nozzle crashes, clogged hotends, gunked up extruders and unpredictable print quality completely sidelined him. So there that little printer sits, dusty and unloved. I need to go rescue that thing!
I think you should also address the whole "this cheap printer has better print quality/speed than this other cheap printer" pitfall since they almost always use the exact same parts so it's mostly a question of default profile. I remember being turned off of buying a printer because I kept looking for the best print quality, then I got a "bad print quality" printer by mistake and realized the hardware had very little to do with the final quality as long as it wasn't really really bad. And like you said, the quality out of the box can also depends if you got lucky or not with the hardware.
Great video. Your one of the reasons I stayed with 3d printing. My first printer was ender 3 pro and it was a headache. Fail after fail, spaghetti madness, death blobs and everything in between. After watching your videos few years ago, I built my first voron using my ender. Been great learning journey. Today I'm going on number 6 and enjoying every minute. Thanks for showing the way and teaching us all. 👍
this is one of the best first 3d printer videos I have seen .
So you’re saying, don’t recommend people drop $2,500 on a fully decked out, self sourced, self built, Voron 2.4 as their first printer?😉
yolo man, yolo
…just as you would recommend a friend to buy a Ducati Panigale V4S as his first bike! 😃
@@itayst Depends on the person. I bought a Golf R with stage 1 as my first car. I don't drive like a bellend though.
I would certainly recommend any of the main voron as a first printer, so long as the person building it is capable of it. The discord is great if you get stuck.
@@chris746568462 4wd, perfect 1st car. A tuned m140i maybe that wouldn't be a good 1st car.
@@itayst I'll take it and pretend it's my firt bike ;)
If someone asks me what printer is as a beginner good my first question would be simple do you want to print or do you want to printer.
there was a lot my monoprice select mini didn't do great, but it was rock solid with a flat bed (at first before I bent it) that got me into this, I didn't change anything on that machine until I broke it and needed to learn it.
I would never recommend building a 3d printer to someone who is not a tinkerer, having said that I've built every 3D printer I own. It took me a month to get my custom Delta Kossel to print anything in 2014 lol
I jumped in and bought an AnyCubic Predator as my first and hoo boy, that was a learning curve.
I see this a lot with Airbrushes in regards to minis/scale models. "Buy a cheap airbrush to see if you like it". And it drives me crazy, cause you can make them work if you know what you are doing but people just starting don't have the understanding to make it perform. Buy mid range if it's your first, and if you don't like it it's more likely you can recover some money....
Also csn be seen with soldering irons. If someone is truly interested in buying kits to slider together I would suggest they get a soldering station in the $100 to $200 range. Cheap soldering pencils actually make soldering harder, which is a bad thing when trying to learn. Most soldering stations that are in the price range (like Prusa printers) have decent resale value If the person decides that soldering kits (and maybe eventually their own designs) is not for them. As with many other things, you get what you pay for.
"We're not making pasta here, we're making benchies." -Nero3D
I needed that. Thank you!
Agree, this should be Nero3D's tag line
Excellent video! You hit the nail on the head with this one. This definitely needs to be released, a lot of people need to hear this. We'll said and edited. Great work as always! Have a great night.
Noticed it too a lot more Laid back Nero, more chill and more enjoyable as a short video (instead of the more formal tone of voice used before)
Great video. Just yesterday after 4 years, I managed to get my creality CR20 pro printing 100mm/s using Klipper on RPi, some mods and your amazing videos. Thanks again. My Artillery X1’s will be getting converted to clipper shortly never looking back to Marlin.
Absolutely love how you tied it all together, doubly so with the recommendations for a newcomer to spend a bit more and get a printer with mesh bed levelling. Does it solve everything? No, but it sure makes your life a lot easier as a newcomer to things!
Wonderful advice!
You are right. That's the reason for that my answer about "what printer should I buy" is always "depends on what do you want to do with that". A tinkerer can buy an ender or something like that to get into that, but someone that just wants to print parts should probably buy a prusa/prusa mini, depending on the budget. My first printer was a wooden CTC diy, that was really crap and I struggled to get it working. Many people had thrown away this special thing and so 6 that hobby before it even began
it may vary - i recommended a Prusa MK2 to a friend of mine and he never could get it to work reliably (bed probe, firmware ...) later he bought an Ender3 and was happy from the start. The manually bed tramming was much more intiative to him.
I started out with an ender 3v2 because I have ADHD and OCD and like to build. My Voron 2.4 350mm build ABS parts were printed with that printer with no enclosure and my parts turned out amazing. The biggest issue i see in the print community especially the ender community is that individuals give the wrong advice when diagnosing others printers. My best sugestion would be to use the all3dp troubleshooting guide for the majority of issues and Ask verified owners of the same printer advice on the printer you are using, not every printer is the same. For instance the Ender community has stepper motor issues and i have seen numerous posts of individuals blaming the stepper drivers for the issue but 9/10 it's an internal break in a wire from the mainboard to the stepper motor.
". The biggest issue i see in the print community especially the ender community is that individuals give the wrong advice when diagnosing others printers."
I feel like this almost sidesteps the biggest issue, which is that printers arent yet at the level where they calibrate flow and can more or less tune all the basic things beginners get curious about. There are some which are innovating on that front, but in my opinion thats where progress is too slow.
I just think this is a problem that should be firmly in the solved category by now.
13:16 "On your way out like that SMASH button" Love it. Btw I built a v2.4 in November following your guides and the process was really fun, other then the detached Apt garage with tools and a 3rd story apt with no elevator but I digress. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and you were right about the German Shepard hair in the Printer. :)
We need more videos like this great job Nero See you at stream
Great video, I went for an ender 3 s1 and it’s been a great first printer, could not see the value in the prusa. Now I have and ender 5 plus and with the knowledge gained by using the ender 3 s1 I am successfully printing as I know how to setup and diagnose little issues, learned slicer settings and tweaks. I think most people fail in understanding the slicer and that it’s more important learning slicer software as 3d printing is a multistage process.
Im definitely in the tinker catagory and your support videos for Voron and the big community around it is why I decided my first printer will be a 2.4, just finished wiring, onto initial startup and tuning. Another good piece of advice is having a friend with a 3D printer, that's how I got my printed parts.
Oh boy I really struck a chord 😂. I was the guy who said I learned everything on my Ender 3 Pro on the last stream.
I completely agree, Nero. My brother owned this printer before me and I have it because he just wanted to print and got frustrated with all the quality issues. He gave it to me for $50 and I got it knowing it was a fixer upper.
I'm a tinkerer though and I love working on and fixing up this thing! I started with a BLtouch and now I'm doing a full Ender to Switchwire conversion. Planning a V0.1 for my next build after that!
Definitely would recommend my brother to get a Prusa though, it fits his style and your livestreams with the MK3S+ have been convincing me it's a good fit for him
Man you are so right on this. I'm a technical guy and suggest to my coworkers to take the approach you mentioned. All my coworkers don't want to tinker, they just want to print stuff without any hassel. Great video!
I recommend a Snapmaker 2.0. it a 3 in 1 and very modular. go mine 2 weeks ago and it been fantastic
U are right. Cheap printers is a bad idea.
Unfortunately in Brazil, that is where I live, Ender 3, Bluer, Biqu, etc, is the best option. Not because we don't have better printers on market, but because we don't have money to spend with one Prusa (one of my favorits printer that cost something like a R$ 8000,00) or Voron 2.4, or another really good printer.
I love this thing and I'm sad to living here, on country that we don't have good choices because we don't have condditions...
In the last two years we have seen an increase of Brazilians building Vorons on the Discord. We have been gathering data from many Brazilian sources of components, like suitable aluminum extrusions, fasteners, aluminum beds, SSRs, local electronic components shops, and so on, so you can buy them in reais instead of dollars. And even for the components that are only available on Aliexpress, you can buy them in instances for quite a while now.
Yes, a Voron is an expensive DIY printer, I won't deny that. But if you really want to build one and have the patience, self-sourcing it slowly in a way that fits your budget is possible.
@@vinnycordeiro no doubt that a v2.4 is an excellent project (before being a 3D printer), but can you really recommend that to someone who never owned a 3D printer before? I don’t think I would… In the same way I wouldn’t recommend a rich friend (if I had one 😆) to buy a 911 GT3RS as his first car!
@@itayst I'm addressing solely the costs issue. It is _very_ common on the Brazil channel on Voron Discord to see people who already have other printers, like an Anet, an Ender, or other cheaper options, who wants to build a Voron but gives up due to the prospect of importing all the components now that we have a very unfavorable exchange rate.
For a first printer a Voron definitely isn't a recommended option.
I'd agree with that, a first printer is a learning experience. I'm up to my 11th printer and I'm still learning things that I wish I knew when I first started. Like having a proper tool kit in a place where everything is organized makes maintenance much easier. Or even how proper environment control around a printer is so important to getting a quality piece.
Great advice. My ender 3 was very hit and miss until I added the bltouch... night and day after having that on there.... almost tossed the thing.
I'm thrilled to hear you say this. I had the same realization a while back, after buying my own first printer 2 years ago. Buying a low-end printer is a great way to alienate most people from the hobby. Sure, it sucks to say "spend $1000 on your first printer" or "build a Voron", so I feel like a Prusa Mini is a good compromise. The Mini is not the best or most capable printer, but it's well supported, a lot of them exist in the world, and Prusa has good documentation and genuine parts.
ABL is the GOAT and all the old schools telling people to avoid them gotta stop! Its not magic, its science so don't be scared of change!!!!!
Excellent video! Excellent advice! My first 3D printer was a US$100 kit I bought on Kickstarter. I finally got it to print, but results were still disappointing. As I started replacing and upgrading components, I realized I was going to be spending more than I planned with little assurance that I would ever be happy with it. I finally put it on a shelf in my closet and bought a Prusa Mini+. The difference is like night and day. Not only did I get great results right away, but it continues to do well after more than one year of frequent use. When I compare the two printers side by side, it is easy to see why. The Prusa is better designed and uses visibly better parts. I have enhanced my Prusa with 3D printed parts and accessories. I also added a Raspberry Pi 3B+ for Octoprint. I enjoy tinkering, but I hate being required to tinker with things just to get basic results.
I started with a Creality CR-20pro and kept fixing issue after issue until I'd had enough and sold it and bought a Prusa Mk3S. Have two Prusa Mk3S now. Wish I'd have started with the Prusa. Hopefully starting on a Voron 2.4 before too long.
My friend wanted a printer and I recommended him a Prusa mini or if he wanted to tinker an Ender 3 s1, he wanted quality so I told him get the Prusa mini but he didn't want the time and got the s1 anyway, he got lucky and he's not having any issues but I wish he would have listened
I have always recommended the flashforge finder for beginners. Very friendly slicer, glass bed, direct drive, fully assembled and it teaches bed level with the sensor.
I had a different opinion but your view I can agree with.
Loved that "were not making pasta here, We're making benchies"
Yeah, I pretty much agree. I am very much at the tinkerer end of the scale and I started with an Ender 3 V2, which was good enough. My brother, who is at the "just wants it to work" end of the scale now has that Ender 3 V2, but I have had to do a lot of upgrades to make it usable for him, easily doubling the price of the printer. If I was doing it again, I would have started him with something like a Prusa Mini.
YEah the v2 was a pos. The early ones had bad driver chips. Got badly screwed.
Great video! Good content and a good message. I recon this could go public and be received well.
I steered away from bed probes for a year. And after many types of switches that were not consistent. And I spent $100 plus on beds. I finally got a CR Touch for $27.00. Difference is night and day. Would never go back. Been 6 months and still using the same magnetic flex bed. With glue stick made for 3d printing. Clean up using warm water with non abrasive pad.
Just like with project cars you need a Daily driver. If you want to wrench on printers you need a printer to print parts for your other printer.
I started out with a zortrax M200 in 2016. Insane expensive machine, because i needed a tool not a hobby. Now with its stone age close source firmware with its support dropped in 2019 it was time for something new, as i could not keep up with all them fancy features needed for some more exotic materials. But it was always good to have this constant, knowing that if i hit this button i can get the part that i need. Maybe with sub optimal slicing and in a unnecessarily slow pace, but reliability is king.
I'm looking for something that will just print, but I don't want to print decorations; I'd like to print initial CNC machine parts, woodworking jigs, electronics project casing, fixtures. Seems like I'll need/want to mostly print ABS, and that takes us to enclosures (more expensive) and even with Bambus being enclosed but questionably with all the electronics within that enclosure. What's a good mid-price solution for printing abs?
@12:35 Best statement out of the whole video, I agree totally, I always recommend a good quality budget printer from a good brand as your go too, and mess withe all the cheaper ones, this is why I usually recommend the Qidi-Tech's the X-Smart or X-Max will print almost any material out of the box without any mods, and use this printer to print the upgrades you need for all your other projects.
12:20 yeah, learnt that the hardway. a used ender 3 sure was a challenge to get started. cheap enough for but constant issues and mistakes on my part, but thankfully i made those mistakes on a about £100 printer. i do enjoy tinkering but it took me a while even to get actual finished prints. i could understand someone ditching the hobby if they wanted to just print things. at this point my ender 3 is closer to a voron switchwire with the eva 2 hotend. having that spare printer would have been nice at points. but i had limited room and something like the prusa mini wasnt even out. maybe its time i get a voron v0 kit
I do recommend to people who want a 3d printer, something like the ender 3 s1 or a prusa, depending on their budget. I started with the ender 3 and after a lot of tinkering and upgraded parts got it where I wanted but thats not true for the rest of the world. Most people just want something that works great out of the box
Which is exactly what a prusa does my guy
I recently got a coupon for an ender 3 pro from micro center for $99, had no issues assembled out of the box and am having a blast printing stuff. Most recent print was the replacement bolts and nuts for my toilet seat.
LOW TEIR - Qidi, MID RANGE - Snapmaker 2.0, Voron 2.4. HIGH TEIR - Ultimaker, Raised 3D E2 / E3 CF/ Pro 2 & Pro 3, BUSINESS TIER - Markforged and there is so many more there
My first printer was an Anet A8, think i got it in like 2016? Had 2 ugly episodes with it
1. Heater cardtrige fell out because the set screw came loose
2. Cable to the bed heater showed signs of burning. Changed the cable out and soldered it in place
It still lives today
Can't wait to see comments from general public once it goes live! :D
I think I got lucky with my Anycubic Mega X and smashed out a bunch of Mandalorian helmets. Fixed, modded, and Klipperised it, then got a Prusa mini + kit, got all the bondtech upgrades and swapped the bowden for capricorn, Now I'm just finishing the cosmetics and tuning on a Voron 0.1 waiting for the space to make a big Voron Trident/RatRig vcore. Probably will klipperise the mini with an aftermarket board so I can power lights and have colour macros and stuff, as well as accelerometer input shaping.
The first question I ask is how handy are you, and do you want a tool that works or a tinkering hobby that occasionally will be a tool.
I really dig that style of video :D You feel so much more natural, and closer to who you are on your livestreams. IMHO this is the way to go for You, work on it ;)
Finally, someone who i brave enough to say it as it really is. I totally see your point. 🙏🙏👍👌
I agree with this. I bought an Ender 3 V2, that actually seemed to work decent, but I also spent an extra $200 in addons and upgrades to get me to the position to get it to work decently and consistently. For basically the same price, I could have had nicer printer out of the gate. That said, I don't know if I personally would have gotten into the hobby with that kind of initial cost on something that I didn't really know anything about.
Does that "nicer printer" even exist? There's a big noman's land where printers get successively more expensive but not actually better.
And you don't need hundreds of dollars of upgrades. An Alu extruder can be had for like $4.
I did this same thing! Upgrades are bed springs, replaced bowden tube coupler, CRtouch, and dual z axis.
Still looking at octoprint from spare parts and maybe a better driver PCB that supports pressure advance.
I’m currently out the door for under $350, and I consider the dual z unnecessary.. the slop in the gantry was just annoying me but it does seem to have improved things a little.
The biggest thing was being _very_ careful about the build and squareness, and the bed leveling setup. I consider this to be an expert builder level job. It’s not something that a kid or somebody who slings spreadsheets for a living is probably going to be able to hit first time.
My family has no idea why I just keep printing 3D printer parts lol. I’m not sure why either but I do, and I love it even messed with hand making a hotend mount and heatsink with a saw, jb weld, and M3 screws.
I fully agree, i bought a geeetech i3 kit in 2016, replaced it with an ender 3 pro in 2020, on which i proceded to replace nearly every single part. Voron 0 next, parts are underway
I think this is great advice. I made the error of buying a Sovol SV-01 because the lead time on Prusas was 6 months at the time and I couldn't afford an i3. It's garbage. It never gets used. I am now spending all kinds of time I don't have trying to make that one usable in my shop for larger stuff. When the Prusa Mini+ arrived, it worked right out of the box. It rarely has any problems, and the only problems it ever has are clogs, which Prusa made it very easy to clear. I can't recommend that printer enough. And it prints TPU just fine, no direct drive needed. I've now replaced nearly all the parts on the Sovol so it was basically a $300 box of badly pre-assembled v-slot extrusions and a Meanwell power supply. And I am not 3D printing to be a tinkerer, this has all been a huge waste of time so far. I print replica vintage parts for my repair business. Not interested in printing fan shrouds and benchies. I certainly would have been better off never having bought the Sovol, but now I'm stubborn AF and am not going to give up until it's working.
Can you list some purchasing links to which printer kits youd recommend buying?
Another point to get a printer that works out of the box is, you get to learn what situation and/or settings are consider good and normal. For example, what a leveled bed looks like, how a good first layer feels, or even how the printer sounds. So you have a good reference point to go back to and find the cause when you have a problem.
I bought an elegoo Neptune 2s as my first. It's needing some tinkering and I've already had to replace the mainboard fan on it. Should I have gone with a Prusa as my first? Probably! But fortunately for me I've discovered that I enjoy tinkering and would really like to build a Voron next! 😅
Bro, this! I fell into the budget-printer trap, got an Ender 2 Pro, and it's taken me just about a literal year to start seeing quality prints. I'm stubborn, curious, and a hopeless nerd, so I made it -- it helped that my wife was also in it, if only for the little, plastic critters.
I'm seeing my budget printer come up in the r/3dprinting holiday buying thread, and it's so jarring! No, you DO NOT want that! I don't know what good options are to recommend instead, but this is a surprisingly resilient trope; it just won't die, despite being so very wrong.
Thanks for speaking against it!
Way too much emphasis on bed levelling! I have a glass bed and rarely touch the levelling screws. I don’t apply forces to the bed though. I use an adhesive, glue stick is a bit strong for me so I use hairspray. I use a brim for narrow edges. My glass isn’t perfectly flat so I did install Jyers but didn’t really see a big difference in my printing, probably because my prints don’t span a large area on the bed. Beginners tend to use a spatula too hard, get rid of that large steel spatula! Flexible beds need adhesive anyway and are easy to damage the PEI surfaces with that spatula.
I started with SLA, and my wife got a flashforge creator pro when I got my Mars. We had so many issues with the creator pro that it steered me away from fdm printing for a while. Don't get me wrong, the creator pro is a good printer. But maintenance on it is a nightmare. The nozzles fused to the heater blocks for both heads and we are going to have to replace both hot ends entirely to get it working again.
Anyway since I no longer have the right space to set up my Mars, we both grabbed ender 3 pros from microcenter and have only had minor issues with them. And we are lucky in that aspect because I am very much aware of how inconsistent the quality of these things are and how much they reduced the quality of a lot of the parts. I'm fortunate in that I like to tinker and have some technical knowledge (I got into 3D printing because I am an artist) so when things do go wrong, I am happy to sit there for hours tweaking things and learning. And I definitely understand that that experience isn't for everyone. I appreciate when people take that into account because as printing becomes more accessible, this is one of the growing pains.
Great advice. I started with the A8 and eventually got some great prints but a lot of work went into it. I then got a Tevo Tornado and had nothing but problems. Eventually I got that working well but so much trouble shooting. Would have saved money and got more with a Purse (I assume). Xmas is only 7 months away!
I wholeheartedly agree. I've been feverishly researching the topic for the last 3 month while I was saving up money for my first printer after finding a really cool model I wanted to print.
I came to a similar conclusion: get something with all the features that got mentioned. Getting that cheap 100$ printer and upgrading it to what a good starting printer would be, costs as much as fully kited printers with those features already.
I ended up going with the Ender 3 S1. I know Ender is not a good company when it comes to suppot. Though from all I've been able to gather is that, if the printer is not faulty, it prints really well for the price it costs. And since tinkering is partly reason why I'm going on this journey, I'm fine with taking the risk. Though tbf, buying in Germany through a reputal seller and government enforced buyer protection against faulty products helps.
Now it's its second day printing using klipper/Fluidd on my old crummy laptop (curse you raspberry pi shortage) and I couldn't be happier =D
Glad you made this video. I bought a CR-10 as my first printer (still only printer too) and haven't used it very much because I found that there was some issue that caused the Z to be inaccurate (basically the Z level differs depending on if you go up to it or down to it and it hurts the first layers especially badly). I went through replacing the lead screw, nut, and the roller wheels but none of them worked. My last guess is that the Z-axis stepper has give in it that causes it to move a little bit under load so it doesn't end in the same height.
I do still want a 3D printer but I want one that just works. I want accurate prints and auto bed leveling. It's hard to find people actually recommending printers that are good quality at reasonable prices. It's always get this cheapy that you can fix up or get this crazy expensive printer but no in between.
For reals; that Prusa MK3S+ is worth every penny, if for no other reason that it handles a lot of different materials turnkey out of the box. I blew it for a long time ("it's so cute; it has printed parts, how good could it be" and similar statements). Make no mistake, it's a monster of a machine, with LOTS beneath the surface, and really does outperform even more expensive machines. There are many machines that look like it; there's nothing actually behaves it though.
Great key points for those looking to get into the hobby
I started with an ender 3 pro and had nothing but problems. I honestly thought it was me for the longest time and got so discouraged. I saw all these people with a prusa just printing and not having any of the issues I had, so I bought a prusa and sold my ender.
I can now confidently say my ender was a lemon. I've been printing for years with multiple prusa's and Voron machines and always cringe so hard whenever someone says they just bought an ender cause I remember my experience. Obviously some have great experience with the ender 3, but some like me get a lemon and get very discouraged.
Agree Completely! Well reasoned video. My first 3D printer was a low-cost kit that never printed well, and the power supply wires were warm to the touch…that ain’t right! Second printer was a Prusa MK2. Good components, good quality, great instructions, great support! Now I’ve built 7 printers. While something like an Ender 3 CAN be an excellent value, it takes a tinkerer mindset, and someone offering help over your shoulder.
When I started out about 10 years ago, I got myself a TEVO Tarantula, it was the worst decision I've done to be honest. It's not been running for more than 10 hours total, despite throwing upgrades on it.
Currently I've got an assembled but not tuned Voron 2.4 350 that I'm struggling a bit with my motivation to get it running. I'm still not sure if it is something for me.
I've got a resin printer that I use a bit more and enjoy since it spits out miniatures for me to paint though.
yeah them tevos were a pain i bought one of a guy who couldn't put it together after a few upgrades i would pull good prints off it .. i still think ender 3s are a good starting point unless you want to only have to hit the print button
My number one printer is the flsun qq-s pro delta. Easy to put together, fast, rarely level the bed with included level device, auto leveling, easy to convert to klipper, 255mm X 255mm X 365mm. Easy to use, little maintenance, latice glass plate sticks to print, auto releases print when cooled, metal titan extruder, touch color screen, a few hundred dollars. Down side: can't have direct drive extruder.
Great Content, I recommended 2 different printers to 2 different people the other day, they talked to each other then moaned at me for being “inconsistent”.
I got them together and got them to tell each other what there goals were and just how different their capabilities were and all of a sudden I wasn’t such an a-hole.
There is no perfect printer for everyone, otherwise it would be the only printer out there.
Best tip, Don't buy your first printer from bangood, Alibaba, ebay, or Amazon. Buy it direct from the manufacturers. If something happens, you can contact the company directly. There are so many 3rd party sellers that look legit but are just folks that buy the cheap machines in bulk and will only able to offer you a refund, if your lucky
I am in the camp you describe. I basically bought an Ender 3 v2 and had endless problems. So I did the things people recommended like upgrading this and that. Well it did eventually fix it (turns out I had a bad motherboard that leads to layer shifts and other problems). I will never ever support Creality again. Their quality control is too low. Wish I'd spent the money on a Prusa. I love tinkering but I also need a workhorse and you don't want your only printer to be the tinker printer.
My Anet A8 got me into the hobby, i modified it to the teeth and then upgraded it to an AM8 with an SKR 1.4 and Voron AB :D Was a fun experience and kept me entertained for 4 years, but now with a Prusa Mini and an Prusa Bear Clone, i will not go back. Best printer I own is my V0.1 and all 3 are really reliable
You are absolutely right. I actually change everything to Caribou, because i am tiered of tinkering.
Am in this situation (sort of) at the moment. Been interested for many years. I think it's more about the tinkering with the printer for me than it is about printing but i do need the printed parts to do my other tinkering... And i'm 40 and that removes a lot of patience for faff when what i need to do is learn about 3d printing. With this in mind and the recent black friday sale, I bought an Ender S1 Plus, on the basis that of all things, build volume (footprint) is the hardest thing to modify on a printer. I haven't even powered it up yet, let alone levelled the bed, and already i'm learning a lot of specifics from people like You and having mind blowing ideas for new direct extruder designs, and such. Hope I didn't make the big mistake already!! haha
"We're not making pasta here, we're trying to make Benchies!"
Put that on a shirt, I promise you it'll sell :D
Excellent advice. I agree 100 percent. I stopped recommending cheaper printers because they almost always require upgrades and tweaks to make work.
Happen to see this on my recommended after the stream, and something I now feel like adding is specifically nozzle based bed mesh levelling.
I honestly think that not having to set the z offset while no big deal to you or I is such a game changer for a complete beginner who just wants a print to print.
Now maybe game changer is too high praise, but honestly I even value it as I have now 2 printers which have nozzle based and I have literally never set z offset. I havent needed to.
The printers level themselves and just print.
In my opinion, this is one of those features I think should become common place. I know the strain gauge solution doesnt work for direct drives, but bambulab does it with sensors under the bed. I think that solution is probably applicable for many printers, especially non bed slingers. Thats the future I want to see.
Great points! I agree with you 100%. There are so many different variables and use cases so it's different for everyone. I really like the kingroon kp3s for a starter and I have recommended that to many noobs.
I got my first printer some 7 years ago, a mendel style acrylic set. It was very cheap but a great learning experience. Over the time a had a few others and now i have a Prusa Mk3s+. Nowadays i want to print and not waste my time with tinkering every other day.
At work we have a Ultimaker S5(which i´m taking care of) and its a worse than my Prusa at home for 6 times the price.
The one thing the Ultimaker is great at, is the ecosystem as we also have the material station, and together with cura it´s very nice and easy to use, without setting things up (like octoprint).
why not something like Raised 3D pro 3 or even the E2 or build a Voron 2.4
@@zoetmoments5625 Very big company, so we are very limited in regards of available suppliers, especially 3D Printers.
I would love to build a Voron 2.4 at work (I'm working on one at home) but getting all the parts is even more complicated.
Never buy cheap is what i learned over the years, complies to anything and everything. Been very impressed with ratrig owning a v-core and minon.
One point: You don't need a bed sensor to enable mesh leveling. Manual mesh leveling works just fine.
TL:DR-Got an E3S1, prusa too expensive, wanted machine to work with minimal tinkering. Realize I want to tinker a little. Want to build a ratrig to build and tinker and get a prusa to replace my ender for a reliable just works printer. Also want to try recycling and making some filament for home personal use. Typical 3d printing with pla isn't as fun as it was starting out and I want to try new, weird, or niche things.
This is why I went with the ender 3 s1, yea it was a new model I took a gamble on that. It panned out well for me though. After weeks of research I wanted to get a prusa but the cost was too high. I don't mind tinkering but I didn't know if I wanted to tinker with a printer or not yet before actually using one. So that cut out the Ender 3, v2, and possibly pro. I wanted something that just works for my first one but I didn't have a ton of money. The S1 seems to check all those boxes, it has a lot of the original ender problems solved well enough, has a flex plate, direct drive extruder, it's very quiet, and half the cost of a prusa at my time of purchase. I haven't had to change anything on it since I got it months and months ago.
Now that I have a bit of time and almost every youtube video and reddit post watched and read on 3d printing lol, I know what directing im going. I have an all metal hot end coming for my s1 and that's as far as that printer is going. I want to save up and build a ratrig minion, get it working then buy a prusa for a stock reliable long term use machine. Then either sell or shelve or turn my ender 3 into some kind of a project.
I'm also getting very intrigued with recycling and closed loop systems. I'm working on starting a design and learning what I can about making a pullstruder petbot type system, and easier to obtain filament options not necessarily meant for printing such as string trimmer line, and I'd like to try messing with and making hdpe with a petbot style system against all warnings about how nearly impossible it is to print with. I want to try messing with it on my own.
First I had i3 clone that was a nightmare until I updated the for almost the same amount of money.
Now I so happy with my voron 2.4 since I tuned it right every print is a success.
I have a SNAPMAKER 2.0. but i really want to build a Voron 2.4 for business use but the part source seem like it will be a nightmare and am not sure i want to spend time tuning it so much but I wount mind if there was a great guide to follow
From ever thing you said it reassured me in going with the SNAPMAKER 2.0 A350T it has all you mention and more (very MODULAR) excellent for people new to manufacturing and tinkering and does not wish to spend time tinkering with the UNIT itself.
I took a chance on a highly discounted printer sold on Amazon for 130$ and have been really pleased by the results. It can even handle TPU. It's an XTZL3D XT-P-S1 "folding" printer with dual Z motors and an all metal hotend. Surprisingly good for a machine that uses a Bowden extruder.
good contend bro truly spoken and no bs
I am a thinkerer. And I love modifying printers than printing stuff. I bought a 2nd hand e3v2 for 120usd with no problem. Modified it to be like The E3 s1 pro. And i love the process than the endresult. Now its one the most reliable printers in my farm.
I agree with the three categories of people. I wolud make another filter to narrow dawn the recomendation. The background of the person on mechanics and electronics. No knolewdge at all will keep you very frustrated on the first 4 months or so.
That gray spool on the prusa is tangled..
Got an ender3 and spent hundreds of hours adding parts and changing stuff and still occasionally wont print right.
My criteria for 3d printers after all these times tinkering:
High quality flat bed (one of the most expensive part)
Flex plate
Bed probe for 200mm+ beds
Z axis that's supported adequately
For a backup printer while playing with the first one I would get a kingroon kp3s. Haven't failed me yet
@NERO 3D Why was it so obvious that when you finally build a Prusa you will end up recommending it to newbies... 😄 I agree 100% - it is the correct and possibly the best choice!
If you`ve been following the livestreams ive brought up this topic a few times in the past, and this is kinda spurned on more by the recent KP3S unboxing I did
Almost two years ago I decided I was going to push into 3d printing and started saving for a Prusa MkIII. Four months later, a local-ish store had Ender-5s on sale for Black Friday, and this dropped the price to less than what I'd already saved. So I bought the Ender-5. Within 3 months, I really, really wished I'd made the other choice.
And an Ender-5 isn't an awful printer! It mostly works, most of the time. Moreover, by that point I was aware there were things I'd want to do to tune it up and I felt confident I could manage them. For the most part, I have. But I've also sunk a lot of extra money into the damn thing, and while it's awesome when it's working, it's sooooo frustrating when it doesn't.
Indeed, it's down right now because something weird is happening with the BLTouch and I'm just thoroughly fed up.
It's not all downside. The Ender-5 confirmed for me that I do like having the ability to manufacture my own parts; it's led me into very simple CAD work, which is fun; and I'm becoming more and more able to deal with the problems. But the level of stress and frustration this damn thing has caused me is so much worse than just saving for another four or five months. :/
It did let me explore whether I like 3d printing (yes) and whether I want to be a tinkerer (not really). So that has some value. But mostly I'm just done with fighting with the damn thing every few weeks. I've got a pre-order in for a Prusa XL, and I'm looking forward to having a printer that just effing works.
Anyway, thanks for this - I'm also fed up with the old souls who are tinkerers constantly recommending fixer-uppers to people who clearly just want an easy way to machine simple parts. So it's nice to see someone putting forward a contrasting view.
I've stopped recommending enders and instead recommend Prusa minis. Most people I tell that to buy an ender 3 anyway. I'm not much of an influencer.
Lol I started with the anet a8 when it first hit the market the first three I had were anet's then I went core xy and then vorons 😁😁
After getting too many people into this equipment I hate having to help with all the little questions. I agreed with your thoughts. I have had great luck with the anycubic vyper as a starter printer, but like what was said not all size fits all. ABL is life for newbies. ( I have 3 kp3s and I put ABL on those. I'm that lazy). Also having a good upgrade path is important. Giving them a crappy board sucks. for if they want to upgrade something it's a lot cheaper to do so.
I understand your view and kind of agree with it. However, I don't regret having started with a VERY cheap 3d printer kit, which I prefer not to say the name (but starts with an "A") :). I really learned a lot following that path. So yeah, as you said, it depends on the user profile and the use she or he looking to get out of the printer.
First order of business on any bowden printer is to convert to direct drive. I struggled for several years with print quality on my CR-10 and nothing else made anywhere near as much improvement. And it only took one simple printed piece to do it. I would have done it so much sooner except everything I read said bowden could perform just as well when properly tuned. Not so. The slack in the tube causes a time delay between extruder movement and hotend pressure, so the only way to make it work would be to shift the time of execution for all extruder commands, but I don't think there's any practical way to do that.
Stuck prints don't chisel. Put a few ice cubes inside the print or around it (paper-towel barrier). The temperature change pops off the print. I dislike flexi plates and only print on glass. I use the blade out of a box cutter to get the brim if needed, but just waiting until the print is cool... like completely cool 28C, it usually slides off.
Yeah gotta ask what they are looking to do, though I had no idea my sole purpose for printing would end up being printing 3D printing parts lol. I got stuck in the upgrade thing, but it really took me through the rabbit hole into firmware editing and custom firmware, using a ultimain2 board on a crazy bed slinger that has Y axis on the rails from an old baby gate lol(still in the works)