RDWorks Learning Lab 236 Powder Coating with your Laser
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- I have been sent video links of people using plastic powder coating materials to coloiur fill deep cut wood engravings. Hmmm . Their results look OK from a distance and yes the idea is perfectly logical. Add heat to plastic and it melts (provided you are not too enthusiastic). Having been a user of the powder coating process for many years, I understand how it is designed to work.....and wood is not on that list of suitable materials. This is an investigation to see if the process is really viable and what parameters, if any, should we be using. Could it be extended to other materials?
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I would like to extend a sincere thank you for your well made, extremely informative videos. I have a Boss 1416 machine and used it quite often for 3 1/2 years. Your videos that explain how to calibrate have helped immensely. I noticed it losing power over the last few months and ordered a replacement tube from Cloudray. I got the 60 watt as it is the same measurements as the original. Cost wasn't bad, from USA warehouse, $288 delivered. I had it changed and calibrated in about 30 minutes. When measured with a Mahoney power probe I show 77 watts at the tube.
Anyway, the machine is back to its glory, thanks to your videos, it was a simple matter.
DC Electronics- Durham, NC, USA
Hi
Thanks for the kind feed back. The power meter you have is not terribly accurate but the Cloudray 60 watt tube is an A grade SPT tube with a great performance. A 60 watt tube should run at 22mA max and that will definitely deliver over 70 watts. So all sounds good. Pay at least twice as much for a Reci tube and it may give a lot less output. You bought well
Best wishes
Russ
For those that would like to try it, it does work and you can get good results. I have been using it to color fill signs and have been excited about the results and ease of use. There is more laser time but it saves time overall from other techniques. I have a Thunder laser 100 w. I didn't have any success just melting powder onto the surface. I could melt it just fine but it didn't seem to adhere well. I found if I do a shallow engrave. Not sure how deep, I didn't measure but maybe a millimeter or so. If I engraved to deep it seemed to have to much powder and melted terribly. So with my 100w. machine, my engrave settings are 500 millimeters a second 35 percent power 7mm focus and 200 LPI and to burn in the powder my settings are 600 millimeters a second, 7 percent power 9 millimeters focus and 200 LPI. I mask the piece before the engrave, then color fill at these settings, pull the masking off and it's done! I think results will vary from machine to machine but hope this helps someone.
Hi Keith
Thanks for the informative comment as it does show that with perseverance there is successful success to be had. It sounds like you have pushed through the difficulties of working with powder that I have demonstrated. and I'm sure that many will be grateful for you sharing your parameters. My goal was to illustrate the difficulties of getting just the right amount of heat into the powder for a sufficient period to get it to flow..
Thanks again for sharing
Best wishes
Russ
Why not just go directly to an oven after the initial engraving?
Don't see the need for using an oven and don't have one in my shop anyway. For me this process is working well. It did take a hour or so trying different parameters. I will say after my first couple attempts I really didn't think it was going to work but it didn't take long to dial it in.
@@keithspencer4024 Hi Keith
As I mentioned previously there was no intention to prove or disprove the process but to demonstrate the difficulty of trying to get powder to flow with the instant local heat that a laser beam provides.. It is very creditable that you have decoded the process. I feel sure that many would like to try this process and it would be great if you could share the following list of data
Your machine type (glass tube or RF) Your max tube watts. The % power used for melting the powder and the speed. What focal length lens do you use and how it was set (above or below its nominal focal point). How deep is your engraving?. What type of powder do you use, and what line spacing is used?
Best wishes
Russ
Thunder laser 100 watt, max wattage is 100 watts. Standard focus is 6 millimeters. Color fill powder coat settings, 9 millimeters focus (3 millimeters out of focus), 200 LInes per inch, 7% power, 600 speed. I understand what you were trying to accomplish with your video. I am always grateful for TH-camr`s like yourself and others for sharing knowledge.
once again a great amount of learning. thank you for taking us along for the ride
Thanks Russ, I saw this process on youtube, got some powder and tried a few very basic unsuccessful experiments. I was going to keep trying but I suspect you have saved me a lot of time and effort. Thank-you!
3.
Hi Cliff
If you read some of the comments, there are people that claim success. if you keep the engraving thin and shallow ie simple text rather that big bold text like I was testing, you may see success. The purpose of my testing was to examine if it was possible to melt the plastic powder sufficiently to get it flowing as it was designed to perform. The intense local heating was never going to work but I wondered if there were techniques of using the laser to provide a gentler wider heating effect. In general terms the tests were a failure but my goal was not to laugh off the fill process because obviously under certain conditions it can be made to work.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia Thanks for the reply Russ, I didn't expect that! From the effort you put in, it was obvious you were trying very hard to make it work. And I certainly didn't think you were laughing off the process. In fact, I did read through the comments and, as always, found them very interesting and helpful, even including suggested settings that could be tried. I should have added that I don't think the process will work viably in our situation. We often engrave hundreds of small items per day and we mainly use laminated matt plastic. I have used standard powder coating on small metal items for years and I would love to perfect this process and offer a new product using shiny acrylic with lasered gloss powders. I was also looking at it from the standpoint of saving time against other alternatives. as I found the excess powder is easier and quicker to clean off than excess acrylic paint or filler. I engraved several items on full sheets, added a thin layer of powder, re-engraved, cleaned, then cut out the shapes.. My tests, like yours started by removing the powder altogether then went though some of the steps you tried but my end results were messy and not of good enough quality for sale to customers. It worked but the engraving was very rough. I may follow some of the tips below and try again as I appreciate that your tests used wide letters and my engaving is usually only 1mm wide or less. Thanks for your help Russ and also to everyone for the tips, perhaps I was giving up too easily!
@@cliffsmith1967
Hi Cliff
Although it was not on camera, I did a few experiments with a thin layer of powder on black acrylic . My hope for some success was because the melting point of the powder was similar to the liquid phase of acrylic. My quick crude tests showed adhesion where I scanned was possible but the powder was far to varied in thickness and the results were rubbish. However, on reflection I think there may be some promise if I can somehow lay down a very thin powder film. I may see if I can mix the powder with isopropyl alcohol and spray it on....hmmmm IPA and acrylic are not good bed fellows. I may carry out a few more tests because fusing the powder into the suface is a slightly different process to melting it to flow.
Best wishes
Russ
Thanks again Russ. Yes, I too found it very difficult to get an even layer of powder. In powder coating proper, once the electrostatic charge can't get through, the powder just falls off so it automatically keeps the coating even. Quite clever really. We used to use plastic parts that were shiny gold coated. I think the process was called phosphoretic coating. If that was a way of putting an electrical charge on plastic could this be a possible way forward? If the area to be coated could somehow be charged with the laser like in laser photocopying, perhaps the powder could be "trained" to stick in the right places? Either way, if you do manage to do any further experiments I'd be very interested. I've subscribed and hit the bell. Thanks again.
As a Froggy, when i need a refine and very instructionnal explanation on a process, a problem, i would never find it in France, but always with very instructive, absolutly free and altruist way, on english channels. I do my best to learn and write english, understand it, but anyway, i think i'm in love with very english peoples and culture. You are designed for sharing knowledge in a way that even a dumber can get it right and duplicate it. My sincere expression of admiration and respect...
HI
Although not perfect. your English is more understandable than my school boy French. 10/10 for effort. My videos are all close captiopned which means you can press the CC icon and turn on English subtitles. If you press the Settings icon and select English (auto generated) it opens a further window. Select Auto translate and you can choose French.
Thanks for your kind words
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia Hi there. I do not want that. I'm always willing to learn more english, so praticing it by listening you will always be the best option. And it's a real pleasure ! I always feel less stupid after looking at a video from you ! ;-)
I dont think that people are actually thinking that you are 'powder coating' wood in the same way you do metals. the basic idea is to melt the plastic so it fuses to the wood, no more complicated than that. People use the words powder coating because they use the same powder coating materials as are used on metals.
Russ, I continue to be inspired by your relentless analysis of things like this :-). I've seen people talking about powder coating with a laser as well and was skeptical, but haven't had time to try it. Now I don't have to.
Hi Steve
Thanks for the comment. I must add that the basic principle of getting plastic that was designed to flow and level out with slow gentle heat, seemed totally incompatable with the instant and intese heating effect that a laser delivers. My goal was not to dismiss this novel process but to investigare the percieved problems. I had several imagined projects lined up had it been possible to overcome the physics obstacles like getting the melt to bond to wood.. People are claiming success for the process and have kindly shared their parameters. I am of the opinion that masking and paint or acrylic resin filling are easier ways to achieve a similar result.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia Funny. As I was watching you struggle with powder coat settings here I was thinking - why not just paint it or plop a bit of resin in there. The heating challenge I think is the result of a laser beam being more like a hammer trying to generating heat. You pulverize the surface will trillions of little photon hammers, but no matter what, you get only instantaneous localized heating.
Maybe the way to try this would be to use a beam expander and blow the beam up to maybe a few mm^2 and see if that evens out the heating to the point where this gets better.
@@SteveMakesEverything Hi Steve a beam expander on glass tube machine would be a nightmare to align. I achieved much better than any beam expander by using a short focus lens and offsetting the focus.......significantly.
Best wishes
Russ
Does work with wood, but nearly the same way as does metal. Adherence using electrostatic charge and baking it, IR heating oven well monitored. But generally for large surfaces and not really for engraved processes. Great video and educating.
Perhaps the solution is to engrave the wood with enough depth to hold powder, then apply powder (maybe using a mask so excess powder removal is easier and more complete) and remove masking. Place into an oven to cure at whatever time/temp is appropriate. Let the laser do the job it was made for and let the oven do the job it was made for. A long time ago I briefly investigated a company that claimed to perfect powdercoating MDF but their name or continued success is a mystery to me now. Anyways, thanks for investigating this topic Russ - I believe you have saved lots of people the time and expense of trying it for themselves.
After thought - why mess with the powder coating - if you have the wood masked, just seal it after engraving to prevent bleed, then spray paint or paint using regular paint methods.
@@DesignCutters Hi
Mask and paint fill is the usual and more practical way but filling with acrylic pouring resin would work just fine and allow all sorts of colour mixing combinations. I could imagine putting wood in an oven at 200 C may not a good idea . The idea is novel and interesting but not a real business opportunity from what I see.
Best wishes
Russ
Thanks for your time so that we didn't had to invest ours
Super Thanks more🙏
Excellent content! Thanks for the great information!
I’ve recently discovered you and i’m mindblown already of all the information you provide! Would you be able to make alot of playlists in your youtube channel, and sorting videos so it’s easier to follow along? It can get a bit overwhelming.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Hi Ruben call in at www.laseruser.com and every thing you want (including a bullet point index of all my videos) is posted there.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia Thank you!
This matches my experimenting with powder coating after watching the video on doing it. Except I wasted a day doing it.
How about heating the object from underneath to just below melting point, and or more than one layer... also no lense?
Always enjoy your videos, very informative. Gets the grey cells going.
Hi
You tube is having a bad day today. Yours is the third comment I have had to redo. Someone on a parallel plain is getting your answers!!!!
Several others are suggesting similar but there are difficulties if you extend the scope of what may be engraved. Take a jewelry box lid for example how do you heat that when it is fixed to the box. . I think the whole process is rather novel and very niche and the purpose of my video was to investigate the viability of using powder coat outside of its normal design envelope. There are many problems that will ever prevent this process being mainstream .
Thanks for the comment
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia I agree, if you really for some reason was hell bent on using this process, itd have to be a case by case very specific process... Keep up the good work... Btw I've made some great progress on my machine design..... hope to share soon.
Something tells me - in the case of metal - you would need to start out as you did with the initial demonstration, using a heat gun or other heating / curing process to properly bake it onto the surface for proper adhesion. Let's suppose the goal is to make a circle. Start out with a rectangle/square of powder that would be baked into the metal. The next step is to use the laser to burn it off (etch) using the negative space of the rectangle to reveal the circle?
Hi Quentin
Thanks for the comment. The technique you suggest is used daily by those engraving powder coated stainless steel cups and it works perfectly.there are lots of videos on TH-cam. Thr point of this video was to demonstrate the specific properties of powder coat and how those properties were not well suited to instant heating with a laser beam, especially when bonding it to wood.. Masking the wood,deep engraving , filling with powder coat so that you can melt it slowly into the cavities with a heat gun is reasonably successful.
indeed, and the purpose of my comment - for metal products, since your demonstration began with adhering powder to a bare metal surface using a heat gun (followed by a demonstration using the laser to adhere powder to an acrylic surface and a metal surface) - was to introduce the process of using the laser to create the design only, but to adhere/bake or otherwise a resin or thermo plastic using a traditional method to achieve the bonding/curing of a solid flat colour onto a metal product, and then to use the laser (engraving) to create the design after the fact. I did not imply the entire bare metal product was first coated with powder coat, but rather a DIY alternative of coating a specific region only where graphics are needed. @@SarbarMultimedia
@@QuentinKarmark
Hoi Qentin
Thanks for the clarification. I did understand what your local "spot" powder coating idea was and its a great tip that othres may wish to try..
Curious here, maybe it has been considered already, how about doing the laser etching , then apply powdercoat, then a nice bath in the oven at the recommended curing temp for the powdercoat on media that will survive the temperature without damage? That's how powdercoat is designed to be cured. On such a small amount of material as in a laser burned area, maybe the cure time can be cut back to the flow stage for the coatingwith minimal or no damage to the substrate. Just a thought.
Hi
Thanks for the thought and yes, that is a possability BUT there is one big problem with the idea and that is how to get the powder coat cleanly into the engraving. I know you can pull it level to the material surface with a flat edge BUT at the same time, you are filling all the surrounding wood micro grain strucure as well. that will also melt in the oven. That is the advantage of applying the heat just where the engraving takes place. When it goes solid (maybe not cured) you can brush and blow away the excess powder. Some people claim success for the method but my experiment here was to see how accomodating powder coating was to instant local heating. I could not find any "sweet spots" that would make this process viable. Masking and filling with paint or resin seems a more practical solution. I had hoped that just laying a thin powder film onto acrylic may be a miracle solution because acrylic turns to liquid between 160 C and 200C (before evaporating) and the plastic powder does about the same. I had hoped to infuse the surface of acrylic with a colour by this means . Great idea, crap results.
I may try it again but with polycarbonate that melts over a wider temperature range.
Best wishes
Russ
Keep trying. Others are getting good results.
Nice video. Curiosity though, after you “Powder Coated” TEST, with the little orange peel you had, what if you you have refilled TEST with more powder and ran it another time?
Personally I would fill an engraving with colored crayon and then place it in a mild oven for a few minutes, Presto. lol. On the other hand, ,instead of trying to redesign a laser to do the job ,build a machine thats purpose designed. It could still be laser based by it shapes its beam over a much larger area at the same time to achieve the proper thermal volume required,
I remember asking you about something similar in the past. Instead of powder coating i wanted to try foil that has a glue underneath. By heating the foil you melt the glue and make the foil adhere to material. I know it cant be done with a metallic foil due to its reflexivity. I wander if it can be achieved with plastic type foil. The "puddle" affect could be avoided since you don't have to melt the paint but the glue. I assume of course that the glue will require less heat to melt than the paint on top.
If you have hot melt glue on the back of a plastic film it should be possible to heat the glue through the film and after engraving you cut the outside shapes and remove the un-glued excess. I have not encountered such film but I can imagine interesting possibilities.
Best wishes
Russ
I tried this it will not work because it works with heat and pressure foil reflects the light and you cannot apply pressure
Let me start out by saying that I’ve enjoyed watching both your channels, and have learned a lot. The technical detail that explains why things are happening has been enlightening. That said, I’m very disappointed in this video. Your methods of trying to apply the powder coat, and then subsequently burn it to the medium doesn’t make sense. You’re tying to apply it to metal surface? Why? The point of this method isn’t to powder coat items. It’s to use it to fill an engraving as an alternative to painting. I’ve used powder coating with a laser successfully for a long time, for it’s intended purposes. You mentioned other channels showing this method, but you didn’t even follow the basic steps outlined in the other videos to successfully do this.
Hi
Thanks for the kind words. I think you misunderstood my metal testing. I was not trying to achieve bonding but was trying to show how there are conflicting requirements in trying to heat powder coat too quickly. As you saw, the laser lines were 1mm apart and the powder did melt and coalesce as melted lines. Capillary action sucked the paint from surrounding areas to form those "worms". You will note I was using this as a gauge to best determine the line spacing I should use and also to determine the exposure threshold where vaporisation occurred was . I apologize if this inadequately explained.. I did explain at the beginning of the video that I was not going to use filled engravings to investigate the melt problem but just trying to establish parameters that would achieve the flow and leveling aims of powder coating. There were enough variables in this simple aim without adding the complexity of engraving initially. It is very creditable that you have decoded the process. I feel sure that many would like to try this process and it would be great if you could share the following list of data
Your machine type (glass tube or RF) Your max tube watts. The % power used for melting the powder and the speed. What focal length lens do you use and how it was set (above or below its nominal focal point). How deep is your engraving?. What type of powder do you use, and what line spacing is used?
Best wishes
Russ
I've had relatively good success as a fill for laser engraving. Blue painters tape makes for a good mask & simple clean-up. Not sure about depth but appears good @ 300/34/9 using an 80W, your mileage Will vary. However, when using white (using my identical settings) I have very sub-par results and currently playing with various settings & will try different colours at some point to see if I get the same result. To 'cure' the powder, I'm using 400/14/14 and leave LPI at 254 and leave focal length as is.... Thanks for taking the time to make this.
@@Kevin-wu7ok
Hi Kevin
Thanks for sharing you experience. I have not spent time trying to research the filling process itself because it seemed that wood. plastic powder and a narrow beam of light energy were ill matched. You, along with a few other correspondents seem to had a measure of success and I am glad that my video has prompted people to share their experiences . A few have been generous enough to share their successful parameters.
Many thanks]
Russ
So what you are hinting at is we can use a 150c oven to melt and cure the powder into wood? lol
Thanks Russ...
Had me giggling in many places ( in the nicest possible way !! ).
Just a thought...
if the 'spreader' has a taper cut from say Zero to 3 mm over say 50 mm this will produce a taper thickness of powder.. , Then do the multi line pass, this should help with determining powder thickness...
Second... after doing the 'wood burn' of the letters give it a 'scrub' with a fine wire brush to remove the carbon. This will perhaps then leave a surface that might help the powder adhere to..
Thirdly... after doing the Horrizontal lines would there be an advantage in going over it again but going vertically and re-melting the powder ?
All the best
Jerry
Hi Jerry
The real purpose of this video was to demonstrate just how hard it is to get this plastic powder to flow and level out as it is designed to do. Instant heating is of little use so reducing the power and making very fine multiple scans allowed a melt puddle to develop . The principle I was trying to demonstrate was that control of temperature was the critical factor and that a powerful well focused beam was never going to achieve that. There have been some interesting suggestions (like yours) as to how this control may be achieved and others claim success. I think this is a novel but very niche process and it has certainly stimulated enough interest for others to try if they think it's a viable process. . Masking and filling with paint or acrylic resin seems to be a more practical process.
Best wishes
Russ
Perhaps stick Kapton film on a metal substrate. Cut out letters and peel off the insides to make a stencil. Fill with powder to the thickness of the Kapton and then cure in an oven. Peel off the Kapton.
Hi
That is certainly a possibility but not all projects are flat pieces and heating wood to 200C may create warping.. This subject has definitely set people's thinking juices going.
Best wishes
Russ
You could stick it in the oven afterwards to improve the results, but then what's the point since just going directly to the oven after etching achieves the same results? It would be interesting to see what would happen if the powder is mixed with water or an oil like linseed? The water may help to remove some heat, just as an unseasoned log in a fireplace generates less heat. Linseed might retain a bit more heat allowing it to cure longer.
Hi Bob
It's amazing at the different novel solutions offered for those problems I illustrate. This video was not really demonstrating that the process of melting powder paint into an engraving was rather impractical but more about (as the title suggests) the problem of using a laser to apply rapid heating to a material that was designed for controlled gentle heating. The principle of filling engraving with meltable powder is both novel and niche. However I think masked engraving and filling with paint or pourable acrylic resin is a more practical process.
Some comments claim to get good results from the process and I congratulate them on the effort they have put into decoding the melting mechanism. None appear to be using the tricks you suggest, so maybe your ideas will work
Many thanks for sharing your ideas
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia I think some of the success claims are due to the novel cheaper laser engravers on the market. It probably generates less heat.
@@bobweiram6321
Hi Bob
The cheaper lasers are certainly down on power because they are fitted with "blunt" B grade tubes that are only suitable for engraving. Even they cannot slow/spread the the heating effect to create the FLOW requried. I can make my glass tube simulate that "blunt" effect by reducing the power and decreasing the speed to increase the exposure time ....still to no good effect. The original video I saw proclaiming success for this process was a very expensive 150 watt RF Trotec laser.
Best wishes
Russ
Just a idea... How about adding water to make like a paste, then after engraving, it should wipe easily off. I might be completely wrong , but it would evaporate the water at 100c allow a longer heat time .
Hi nBrian
I answered this once but You tube seems to have sent it to a parallel universe.
Adding water to wood will open the grain and the micro powder granuals will be absorbed by the wood . I noticed thet even wipin some powder residue away with a damp cloth marked the surface. Sadly it has to be kept dry. Nice idea though because the power used to vaporize the water would have helped to attenuate the power.
Best wishes
Russ
I wonder, say for sheet metal marking as it wouldn't really work for wood, if you couldn't take something like a thick steel plate and heat it to just below the powder coat melting point.
Place it under the material you are engraving to hold the heat longer and closer to the flow point to get finer control using the laser to push it up over the melting/flow point?
Probably a pain to setup the experiment and keep the plate hot enough between runs, but would be interesting if hold the heat higher for longer would make any difference at all.
Hi
Although the logic of your idea has merit, I think you have already thought through the difficulties of implementing it. This is a novel application for powder coating but when compared to simple engraving through masking paper and then filling with paint or resin, the whole, process seems fraught with risk.
Best wishes
Russ
Buenos días como latino aqui te vemos mucho, a muchos le complica el idioma ya que nos es igual escucharlo que leer los subtitulos, no has pensado en doblar al español videos, tendrías más alcance, me ofresco a ayudar.
Good morning as a Latino, we see you a lot here, the language makes it difficult for many since it is the same for us to listen to it as to read the subtitles, you have not thought about dubbing videos into Spanish, you would have more reach, I offer to help.
Hi
Thanks for the comment. I have only recently turned subtitles on for my videos because I realized that TH-cam now allows auto translation of subtitles
If you click the little CC icon at the bottom of the video you will see subtitles. Press the SETTINGS icon and beside English (auto generated) select the arrow. for another window, There you will find Auto translate. If you select this you can choose Spanish
Best wishes
Russ
instead of using a 100+ watt laser , use a 2.5 watt?
Nice study, thinking with you i would try a heated bed (100C-150C) in the laser to keep the temp.
Possibly a practical idea if this was a big volume business but not at all practical for a general purpose hobby or small business machine.. Think of the possible problems . How long would it take to heat up the lid of a jewelry box? Not all projects a thin and flat. No thought is silly but some are more practical than others. I still question the whole premise of this ever being a viable process for a volume business. when masked engraving and filling with paint or resin is so much simpler. This was just a project to investigate the problems to see if there was real way to exploit powder coating out of its natural environment.
Best wishes
Russ
Very informative and you're not wrong. However, I'm sure you missed the point. Nobody is really thinking that the other people using power for power coating to give the same properties as it does in "proper" power coating of protective coating. They are using the power to put pretty colors into their engraving. Your attitude and condescending attitude unminds your vast amount of knowledge. Thank you for your informative video but, imho, you're raging against people just having fun. #howToMissThePoint
Hi Chad
I value any constructive fedback and I take yours to be just that. I had no intention in this video to undermine the process that some people are having success with. My goal was to explain and demonstrate that the instant heating of the laser process was ill-fitting to the design of powder coating where slow gentle was required to allow it to FLOW. The results I had seen at the time were done on a very high power RF laser and there was no FLOW/self levelling evident in the result. It was that obsevation that prompted me to experiment for myself with the powder coating aspect of the process. If the plastic powder could indeed retain its heat long enough to flow, I saw endless possibilites for applying it elsewhere. I can only apologize if there was some ambiguity in the way I attemped to demonstrate that goal.
Best wishes
Russ
After applying the powder coat with the laser could you then heat the wood with a heat gun to remelt? Might be worth a try.
Hi
I am absolutely sure that will work.because that is sustained slow heat that will allow the plastic to melt and flow. The whole point of this video was not to prove or disprove the process that some seem to be having success with, but to investigate the incompatability of the instant local heating capabilities of a laser beam with the design requirements of powder coating for sustained gentle heat The original video I saw was demonstarting this process using a 150 watt RF laser (maybe a $100K machine?) that few have access to . That's why I was looking at the material properties of powder coat rather than the whole process.
Best wishes
Russ
You need a curing light, my powder take 200 to 230 celsius for 8 to 12 min.
How about taking the lens out of the picture all together?? Let the beam go to the wood from mirror 3 without any thing in it way
Wide beam maybe???
Hi Rich
Defocussing the lens to the huge extent I tested, lowers the beam intensity much more than just removing the lens. Try it for yourself on a piece of card.
Thanks for the though
Best wishes
Russ
Damn that panty hose technology
Hi, you probably have the channel with the most laser tests on yt. How can i contact you about a question i have in rdworks?
Hi
I now have 6 various laser machines/types. I gave up on manufacturing and making money when I retired. I am now on that downhill run to oblivion but I don't know how far away the wall is at the bottom. In the mean time for the past 7 years I have been self-educating myself on the finer details of this Chinese laser technology . Most people just swim on the surface but I like deep diving. It keeps my two remaining grey cells exercised and provides a great excuse to work though my wifes long "too do" list VERY slowly. My other hobby has always been film/video and editing, hence, recording my learning journey has been win,win,winfor me ......learning, engineering and video material.
you can contact me privately with this contact form
forms.zohopublic.eu/ndeavorlimited/form/K40XtreeemLaserCutterContactRussSadler/formperma/k2Cn0QN5ChpazfTMAUw25lZ-FKpjZa96TQWHjv3ntOg
Best wishes
Russ
Really good video! I couldn't but wonder where can I get the laserhead shown on the machine in the video. Very unique. Thanks in advance for anyone who can assist.
Hi Joel
This laser head is my own design that I originally developed to replace the very heavy head that was supplied with the machine. The aim was to reduce moving mass and thus be able to acellerate the head faster to dramaticallt improve engraving cycle times. The very open and simple structure has many other advantages beyond its weight.
see this video all about the MK1 design. I have subsequently improved the design to Mk2 to make it stronger and even more capable of fitting many different machine types.
th-cam.com/video/ziyqXxGJX_o/w-d-xo.html
Although my goal was to gift the design to Cloudray to produce, they were very slow at making a decision and I had so many requests, I had to make a batch myself. To this day I continue to sell the Mk2 head for a price of £39 which includes postage. You will need to but lenses,leC series lens tube and nozzles from Cloudray. It depends on your machine configuration as to the head monting you require.
You may also be interested in all the modifications I have done . These are all explained in this video
th-cam.com/video/6aNwKhTRnd8/w-d-xo.html
You tube do not allow emails in comments, even lightly disguised ones but there is a way to send me your email details and that is to lose it in a sentance like this. If you follow joel with a dot and then lopez you can then add the normal "at" G=m=a=i=l= etc. This confuses the hell out of any watching algorithm.
When I have your address I can answer and you can send a few pictures of your machine so that I can make sure the bits will fit.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. Let me take a look at your videos and get hold of you as shown. Your videos are great and the way you teach us is so in another level.🤣
I wonder how a LED laser would work? Like you I have tried the co2 on powder coat and it was not worth the time and effort. LED lasers have a much longer dwell time and heat items slower than a CO2 might be something to look into,
Hi Willie
A diode laser is far less controllable than a glass tube CO2 laser. The key thing with a diode laser is that its output power is ALWAYS constant at FULL power. However, apparent power regulation is achieved by turning the diode on and off rapidly (PWM). There are two control factors . One is frequency and the other is duty cycle . For any specified frequency you can decide how long the laser is ON for each cycle. anything from 1 to 99%.. Its a weird concept that seems to have the same net effect as varying the power in this instance it is varying the exposure time. The other issue with a diode laser is the wavelength of its output. At 450nm it probably has less energy transfer efficiency and thus will heat slower(I am guessing because I do not have a diode laser). Also, most diode lasers are in the 5 to 15 watt power output zone so heating intensity will be much less.. I do have a CO2 RF 30 watt laser that runs with PWM but that cannot be controlled to achieve anything that I would rate as good.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia while it takes longer I can do pictures on leather that is much more detail than co2 because it does not attempt to engrave more along the lines of branding.. because it is in that lower heat spectrum. The chemical makeup of the powder coat may react less violent and flow better, as you mentioned however it is in a different spectrum wavelength and like acrylic may not react at all
@@williesims8655
Hi Willie
Yes leather/hide is a difficult material to engrave because of the oily nature of the material. It produces lots of fumes that can easily make your product brown and sticky. The continuous scan of a CO2 laser is the incorrect approach.. Here is a video that shows how to get a smoke free detailed image with a CO2 laser at 150 to 200mm/sec
th-cam.com/video/U3U_aTeUAFs/w-d-xo.html
Best wishes
Russ
I've been doing this for awhile now, very effectively. I can't post any pictures in the comments unfortunately.
Hi Mark
Thanks for the comment. Others agree that they are having success with the process but under certain limiting conditions. It appears the large thick bold text, such as I used will never be successful but thin text seems to work. Remember that this session was not about the whole process but about the properties of powder coating and the need for slow gentle heating to obtain the designed FLOW performance of the powder.
Best wishes
Russ
@@russsadler3471 I get resolutions as high as 100 dpi with "full color", I've gone up to 14 colors in one image, and maybe a bit better resolution if I take my time with it. Generally, I used very high powered lasers with expanded beams to actually cure powders, but I can sinter the powder in place with a lower power spot pulse and then cure it off in an oven or with a laser.
just a quick check for cure,,, try wiping it with some acetone,, if it is cured it will remain but should it be uncured,,, it will wipe off,,,, 10 years in powdercoating business and 5 years cleaning ceramic printing rolls with laser
Hi Walter
Many thanks for that new information (for me). I know that wood, lasers and powder coating were never designed to cooperate but with your experience is there any way round the flow /leveling problems I am encountering.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia i consulted to a (1990's) local company on cleaning of anilox printing rolls (ceramic roll with millions of pinholes for holding ink) and the solution was in a defocus of the laser to soften the effect and smooth the heating. leveling happens with time i don"t believe there is any other substitute. we are limited in heat and viscosity of the paint. leaving only time.
added thought,,, cure and leveling can be handled in an oven as a post process, using the laser to set the powder, I might shellac the wood first, then laser, and powder. the shellac will give a cleanable surface, without removing the lasered powder. then post process for cure and desired finish. (jsut a thought)
@@MrOiam
Hi Walter.
Yes, the idea of defocusing to produce a "soft" beam is something I take to extreme in this video but still could ot get sufficient "persistent" heat into the plastic to allow it to flow. The heating from the laser is always very local and limited, thus it is impossible to create a large enough pool of heat to allow for a flow time. Although others have managed some success with the overall process , my aim in this video was to demonstrate there is a basic incompatability between our type of lasers andthe designed properties of the powder coating material.
Best wishes
Russ
I wonder if anyone tried it with laser printer toner instead
My question is can I use my fiber laser to do this.
That's an interesting project I have never undertaken. I had use of a loan fiber laser for a year and carried out a lot of experimrnts to find its limits. However, powder coating was not a material I tested. BUT...I think there may be a better chance of success than with a CO2 laser. Although the 1 micron wavelength is very selective about what molecules it will excite , some plastics are very easily excited and will heat up. I think epoxy is one of those but I am less certain about polyester which is the most common powder coat plastic. The rapid scanning speed of the fiber laser means you may be able to repeatedly scan an area with low power to gently heat the plastic to allow it to flow. It is worth a try. At the moment I dont have a machine to test it for you.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia that was my thought. Real low power and long pulse width and scan real fast over and over
@@jtcustomknives
This may be one of those rare occasions to use the circular scanning
Just use a heat gun.
diode laser my friend will solve your problems of toothpaste powder :P slow burn of UV diode laser will do like UV printer :D
I like your intersting comment but wonder if this is supposition or from practcal experience? The polyester resins used for powder coats do absorb 90 % of light energy at 300nm and below. So if you really mean UV diode laser then it may be possible to create FLOW by retaining heat in the powder. However a thin powder film loses its heat very quickly so I am still dubious about achieving this key property of powder coat. It is normally applied to metal and heated in an oven of some sort where the metal and the powder get heated but the mass of metal stores and retains the heat for an adequate time to allow flow.. Yes you can heat the poweder and make it aglomerate locally by capilliary action but that's not flow..
I am not aware of any non-industrial UV lasers (sub 300nm) for hobby users . The commonly used blue diodes are 450nm and at that wavelength the light absorption into polyester is about 50% . A focused diode beam of say 10 watts where you have very little beam shaping control (usually a fixed 2" focal length lens)when combined with the PWM control stsyem is not really controlling power , but the exposure time for the 10 watts. The only real power control you have is to run at 99% power and dramatically reduce speed. Every bit of physics I am aware of says this will not solve the FLOW problem.
I am genuinely interested in your comment if you have practical experience ......because I do not . This video is not about the engraving process that some people claim to have success with but about the disconnect between the designed properties of powder coating and the intense INSTANT heating effect of a laser beam. IF your suggestion could work for normal diode lasers, I feel sure the some of the massive diode community would have flooded TH-cam with demonstrations ......very very slow demonstrations, as you suggest.
Best wishes
Russ
But people have done it and with much better results. Without addressing that, this video only proves that the author did not do it optimally.
Why not try without a lens
Hi Marek
That is a reasonable suggestion because it satisfies the requirement for slow gentle heating. However the large heated area will have unintended consequences. Look at 32:30 and you will see that although I have scraped the powder coat level with the material surface. it stiil sits in the grain of the wood surrounding the engraving. If the power is focused, the heating will only affect the engraved section and wil lallow me to blow away that excess powder when the cycle finishes. Heat up the surrounding area with an unfocused beam and the powder will melt into the wood where its not required.
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia
Hmmm fully agree what you just say, but …😊 I will still try it, and offset working pattern for a half of the size of the spot to minimize burning unwonted area. I have to try it on my 60w i believe this could be done without your tooth paste effect 😉
Great video as always 👍
Hi Russ, Since it's no longer a powder, would using your heat gun from the top, after using the laser, re-melt the plastic and even it out more? Best, Dick
Hi Dick
The simple answer is yes. Why didn't I do it that way? It's powder and would blow away. . In the real workd it is melted and cured by radiant hear as it passes through vertical ovens on a production line or in other cases the parts are VERY CAREFULLY hung on wheeled racks and rolled gently into a box oven. The point is that i'st gentle heat that allows time for it to FLOW. The base metal is also heated and that allows the plastic to bond to the surface. I see none of thesedesigned properties in the engraving and fill process.. However under certtain conditions several peopleclaim success..
Best wishes
Russ
@@SarbarMultimedia You're using re-meltable plastic powder. Once it's lasered, it's no longer a powder (more like spaghetti). I'm asking if you then use the heat gun, will it remelt (won't blow away because it's no longer powder) and flow better? Just a thought.
@@dickbrock
Hi Dick
The simple answer is yes. Given enough heat for a sufficient time, the non-powder state will flow . The instant heat of the laser beam will cause melt and coagulation of the powder but there is insufficient time for it to flow. This material starts off life as meltable plastic that is extruded as sheets. It is then mechanically ground to a fine powder but it is still a remeltable pastic..The difference between melting and flowing is an important property when it comes to this "interesting" application.
Just as an interesting aside that is also comparable. I attempted to create sugar text by melting a thin film of icing sugar. It converted into blobs of sugar for the same reason that powder coat does not flow instantly.......temperature related viscosity. There is insufficient stored heat to allow flow to happen after the heat source is removed..
Best wishes
.Russ
Not to complain or anything, I really think there is something wrong with your camera, for the last couple of videos, the audio is only coming out of the right channel. Cheers!
Thanks I'll check
I am not having any issues. Could it have still been processing the video? I am sure patprop74 is having the issue, just wanted to give another view
@@AW_DIY_garage I do notice that the left channel audio seems much lower then the right, which might be what patprop74 is noticing more then it actually missing.
@@FSEAirboss nice maybe a weird setting in the video editing software biasing sound to the right channel. I love it team problem identification and solving
Hi
I have checked and I think the problem may be with my 5 channel audio recording. The editing only uses two channels and that may be doing some weird mixing. I have changed the settings to simple stereo and that seems to be better balanced. Feed back on future videos will be useful. Thanks all.
Russ
just gong way to fast even 10w lazers burn the powder
The problem with your 10 watt diode laser is that it cannot go fast therefore you are burning the powder. There is simple concept of exposure time that you are not accounting for. Just for simplicity if your 10 watts moves at 10mm/s then it is depositing 1 watt per mm. If it moves at 100mm/s then it is depositing 1/10th of a watt per mm. To further understand this principle move your hand over a candle flame at different speeds and you will FEEL what the material experiences Faster= LESS burning.
best wishes
Russ
I think this test is not a fair one. I believe this is the case because the examples online were with fine, straight line designs. Your designs were with larger sized spaces that were engraved. You even say this in the video, but you dont follow it up with a like for like test. I'll still be trying the methods on other videos with straight line designs so the ink can follow the smaller reservoir in those line drawings as opposed to being allowed to run all over the place. If powder method can be reserved for those particular kind of designs (line drawings) and it's perfect for that method, it would invalidate the purpose of your video. Nothing personal chap.
Hi Andrew
Thanks for the opinion. I can never be offended by folks with a different point of view. However, I do wonder if you misinterpreted the purpose of the video It was never about dismissing the powder paint filling method but more about examining the mismatch of instant and intense heating with a laser against the powder coat design principles of slow and gentle heating to allow flow and leveling of the melted material. Were there ways to apply the heat in a manner that could be sympathetic to the needs of the plastic powder? I did do a final quick text test to see if the parameters I chose were in any way viable. I like the novel idea of using powder coat and some claim to have been successful with.it. They have been kind enough to share their parameters in other comments for those that wish to try it.
@@SarbarMultimedia hi Sarbar, the text test you did at the end was with broad text characters with a need to do a lot of filling. They were not lines. It's good to see people giving it a go though. Thanks for engaging with me.
An alternative that is mostly about using a laser for one task and powder coat colors for another?
th-cam.com/video/5slQcAI2WSw/w-d-xo.html
Hi Nigel
My goal in this video was to illustrate that the properties of powder coating are ill suited to manipilation with instant laser heating. Steve has used a SLOW method of applying heat to get the powder coat to FLOW. His approach is perfect and as you rightly say you have to understand the materials you are working with and use them accordingly.. Thanks for the link for others to refer to.