Thanks for your patience as I uploaded, I apologise for a lower video quality than usual - this was due to some technical difficulties. We figured rather than troubleshooting extensively, it would be better to get it up straight away instead. Also, some of the images are representative of what Neal refers to, but not the actual artefact (when an image isn’t specifically available).
Even if he was totally right about the plates, assuming everything else was the same, it still wouldn't shake my faith in the least. But these people are desperate, and they have to attack from some point.
It's not the hill he wants to die on, is it? He's laid out heaps of arguments against mormonism. This was just a follow-up video responding to the (hilariously bad) responses others made to this particular argument he made. If only most theological arguments were this obvious...
Thanks for a great interview, Ben! I appreciate all the visuals you added, but I do want to clarify for viewers that many of the visuals are representations and not the actual artifacts I am referring to. 😅
@@nealrappleye9500 Love your work Neal. I’m just wondering whether you've read Don Bradley’s book on the lost pages, which reveals that there were much more than 116
Goodness me. The details of what the plates measured and character size is all a bit navel gazing! Who cares? All I know is that the words of the BoM are amazing! The eternal principles contained therein support my testimony of Jesus Christ! One young man, of farming stock, little formal education, and childlike faith, was able to obtain this ancient record, translate it so quickly, and share it (with much more spiritual wisdom, patterns, poetry) with the world. I can not and never would deny that I have this knowledge, witnessed to me by the Holy Ghost and many spiritual experiences. The more I learn from close reading of the BoM and expert linguistic teaching, the more fully I appreciate what a miracle it is! Thanks, Ben, for another stimulating video! ❤
7:12 "as thin as 0.15 inches". Let's see here, at that thickness you could get about 7 plates per inch or 14 plates total. Check your math and claims of 200 plates. I think that you meant to say 0.015", but even assuming that this were the case you would never get 200 gold plates in the 2" unsealed portion.
Gold is very heavy by volume compared to Steel, and especially compared to aluminum. Very thin plates could be damaged very easily. 1/2 MM thick seems a bit much unless they didn't care about weight and wanted them Bomb proof. At 1/2 mm thick, I would guess the weight to be 70~90 pounds. At the time the plates were written, the plates most likely were alloyed with Copper. This was done in old world. This significantly strengthened the Gold allowing for thinner plates. If the copper content was low enough, corrosion couldn't happen. Corrosion/Tarnish, is the BIG benefit of Gold versus any other metal excluding Titanium. Even Hebrew short hand, 40 plates is illogical unless writhing so small an magnifying glass was needed. And ,that is even more illogical. I have experience working with Gold. I have made Jewelry with gold. One of many proofs, BoM was divinely translate is: Because Hebrew doesn't use vowels. How did Joseph know what vowel to use if NOT Inspired Translation? Even today, Hebrew translators have an extremely difficult of what vowels to use. The evidence the BoM is divinely translated, is VASTLY WAY BEYOND a DIMINISHING return.
The problem is - Trent got his butt kicked in his debate with Jacob Hansen. Mostly because he refuses to take us seriously enough to do his own research on our faith. And because of his refusal, all he can do is quote long debunked, anti Mormon content from centuries ago. It’s a shame really.
I was raised Mormon, my family is Mormon. I left many years ago, not for the silly reasons many do, like, they don't let women have the priesthood, or haven't yet approved gay marriage and transgenderism, etc. A few things: 1) There was no "great apostasy." Contemporaries Mormon apologists effectively grant this in shifting from a doctrinal apostasy to merely one of priesthood authority. Hence talk these days of the "ongoing restoration." 2) Nature of God. The Mormon understanding of the nature of God is grotesque and heretical. (Once a man, plurality of gods, denial of the Trinity) 3) Doctrine of Creation (rejection of ex nihilo) 4) Acquired Godhood (instead of the more reasonable orthodoxic theosis) 5) The obvious non historicity of the Book of Mormon 6) Temple rites. Pointless, freemasonic ripoffs.
Man i dont understand why you guys say this. Hansen made some pretty dumb points "mormon marriages last longer therefore the bom must be divinely inspired" srly?
@@fireinthesky2333 Your list of 6 is little different in quality than the reasons you personally find silly. Those with same-sex attraction or desires to have the priesthood don't find those to be silly. Each of your 1-6 can be answered just as well as women/priesthood, LGBTQ issues, etc. It seems you find silly where you agree with the LDS Church, as a Roman Catholic. And don't find as silly what undercuts your Roman Catholicism. Greek philosophy answers much of #1-4. There was an Apostasy. LDS scholars don't say there wasn't a Great Apostasy. They simply reject that all truth was lost, there were no good people, the mirror shattered in 1000 shards with the Apostles' deaths, etc. Mormons should refine their understanding of the Great Apostasy. Not reject the concept. Saints veneration, infant baptism, loss of understanding about nature of God (Greek philosophy corruption), personal and moral corruption within the Catholic leadership, and other aspects are all hallmarks of a great apostasy. The Trinity was created along with ex nihilo creation out of nothing a few centuries after Christ. These are historical facts. These changes affect how you view Jesus, God, and yourself as creatures. Not literal children of God. You show your ignorance with #5. You show your ignorance & lack of respect with #6. Masonry had some, but not the greatest impact on the endowment. The drama is about creation and other topics. Masonry's role is fully absent in other aspects outside the endowment. Were you really LDS? You sound quite uninformed. Good luck.
@@nealljones Heh heh I see your updated/edited comment. It seems you're on board with theological approval of LGBTQ'ism, despite, I don't know, the Apostle Paul repeated denunciations, and 2000 years of Christian teaching. And hey, why not? Your "prophet" can just have another revelation when the social pressures get too much. The Mormon Church has a long history of this kind of thing: Brigham Young said polygamy was an eternal principle and Mormons would never stop, woops, see 1890. Or, see Brigham Young's procephies on the curse of Ham, and boy, post civil rights it was awfully convenient that the "prophet" revealed that blacks weren't cursed after all. Here's the hilarious lowdown on this one too: the Mormon church's teaching on blacks and the priesthood directly violates the Article of Faith which locates responsibility of sinfulness to each person's actions. Quite a pickle. This is why the Mormon Church, aware of this, taught that black people were less valiant in the pre mortal existence. Weird. You won't see many Mormons teach that today, will you? Wonder why.
I'm always skeptical of anybody who presents "proof" for or against anything, particularly those pertaining to history, and even more so those pertaining to spirituality. With history, we can only speculate on what any given individual was thinking, or was motivated by (we get it wrong analyzing the living, and often even ourselves). We lack a precise understanding of culture, context, motivation... Spirituality adds the further complexity of the requirement of faith. If - as nearly every ancient scriptural document indicates - we are expected to live by faith, then the idea that some sort of irrefutable proof will present itself... is an absurd contradiction.
At 5:56, it is claimed that 0.5 mm "is actually a very thick estimate for the plates, they could be much thinner". Where are you getting this from? Are you assuming that people 2400 years ago with (presumably) relatively crude tools would make metal plates with a co-planarity of greater than 0.5 mm over a diagonal of 250+ mm? Do you realize how hard that would be? It is disappointing that you do not include the account of Sidney Rigdon where he claimed that there were a total of 14 gold plates. The reason for the small number of plates was obvious to the early saints who believed that the characters in reformed egyptian stood for many words in english - perhaps 20-40. To ignore this leaves this presentation wanting.
@@cameronvantassell9483 Please point me to a time stamp where they address ancient plates that are at least 6x8" and have a coplanarity of 0.5 mm or less. It's not just the thickness of the metal that matters, it's the ability to stack them on top of each other and maintain a total thickness as described.
@scottvance74 Be honest. It doesn't matter what artifacts have been found or may be found in the future, you will disbelieve the origin of The Book of Mormon. Since the 1830s, the goal posts have consistently moved when new evidence has come forward. Until you open yourself to the possibility of truth and read the book with the desire to know the truth, it doesn't matter what evidence there is. But, that's your right and will be judged thus, as will I also be. Best of luck!
@@cameronvantassell9483 I find it fascinating that you "know" so much about me even though you don't know me. I have read the Book of mormon with as sincere a desire as anyone. I read it multiple times prior to baptism at age 8. I read the D&C by myself by age 9. I read the (full) Bible on my own as a teenager and had read the Book of Mormon more than a dozen times prior to my mission. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in my mission that knew more about the scriptures than I did. I often won the scripture chases in seminary as I had the 25 required scriptures memorized. I am aware of many but not all of the various evidence claims for and against the Book of Mormon. But we're here to discuss this video and its claims, which I found wanting. You made a claim that there were multiple ancient plates which were thin and I asked for specifics. I made a claim that Rigdon stated that there were only 14 plates. I am willing to provide evidence for my claim. Can you provide evidence for your claim so that we have something substantive to discuss, or do you prefer to simply go for ad hominem attacks regarding my sincerity or lack of effort to find "truth"?
Awesome work by Neal and Jerry 29:23 I’m just wondering whether Neal has read Don Bradley’s book on the lost pages, which reveals that there were much more than 116
Yes, I have a footnote in the written version that discusses it. In short, it's not a settled issue and some scholars have critiqued Bradley's proposal of a longer manuscript. I am open to the lost manuscript having been longer, but for the purposes of estimating a total number of plates I decided to just go with the 116 number, as a means of establishing a minimum required plate count. Obviously, if you lengthen the lost manuscript it becomes another variable you have to adjust for.
Tumbaga is a gold-copper alloy (+ silver sometimes) that was used a lot in ancient South & Central America and was acid treated to make the surface look like pure gold.
@@danielstark8356 I'm not sure if your question is directed at me, but in case it is: I'm interested in the commenter who said they know the Book of Mormon is true on account of the Holy Ghost. My question is not asked in bad faith, I'm genuinely interested in how this person knows that the Holy Ghost is communicating to them the truth of the Book of Mormon.
@@fireinthesky2333 They were replying to me. I come from a dysfunctional non practicing LDS family and aside from just being baptized out of custom I was definitely not raised LDS. When I was teenager I was invited to attend LDS seminary and learn about the Book of Mormon by the local teachers who somehow knew I wasn't enrolled and I said sure I'd come. I didn't understand LDS doctrine much at all but I knew I felt really really good and I really liked learning about the Book of Mormon and I only ever felt that good feeling while I started reading the Book of Mormon so much so that it became my favorite class. At the of the school year I was so enthralled by what I was learning and felt that I decided to go start going to church when I was a teenager. I never felt the Holy Ghost growing up and when I started reading the Book of Mormon his influence was unquestionably powerful and real. You asked how I know and its simply that when I started doing church things I felt his influence in my life which was something I never felt before when I wasn't. When I've sinned in a variety of ways, I felt his condemnation and withdrawal from my life. I have felt his influence to be a more compassionate and loving person and to be better than I currently am. Just like the challenge of explaining color to a person born blind, I don't know how to adequately explain the promptings of the Holy Ghost other than to invite a person to read the Book of Mormon for themselves. The Holy Ghost will testify to its truth to anyone who reads it and will extend his influence to constant companionship to anybody who follows it teachings. The question is simply whether someone will receive or reject his witness with most people rejecting him and explaining away what they felt because they don't like what he told them.
If you want to prove the acience, then show us how you can make a thin plate of tumbaga using tools grom meso america, and then show us a double sided page of charachers that are 1.7 mm tall please. If you cant then why are you posting
Did you even listen to the podcast? He addresses that ancient tumbaga things have been found that meet this thickness. If they are truly that thin, the characters can be much bigger because the number of sheets can be much greater.
@@timothyfowers they even talk about ancient metals found and how big the writings on them are. Watch it yourself and judge on your own, but it is definitely feasible based upon known ancient artifacts.
I hope this isn’t a growing trend for Catholics on how they treat LDS. It used to be mostly Protestants but I’ve seen a growing number of Catholic channels now “debunking” LDS.
I agree it's not the mainline Catholics that are in any way a problem. I have to be honest though, I think some of this is a numbers game. What I mean is, in Protestant-Land America, the 3 Christian faiths that are growing are the Catholics, the Orthodox and Us. People are desperate for community, meaning and meaningful ritual. Protestantism, especially in America, is very individualistic, and anti- ritual. I also think that our premise that there was an Apostasy is baseline offensive to them. It's different than saying that the church needed reformation, it's a TOTAL rejection of their foundation, which is the idea that the Trinity and other creeds were handed down by the apostles. All 3 of the listed groups are the only Christian faiths that claim to carry divine authority. And one of us is right.
I kinda lost respect for Trent as a genuine truth seeker. Not because we don't share certain beliefs but because of his lack of due diligence and ability to acknowledge positives in our arguments.
@@forallthesaintspod it didn't require faith to know Mormonism is false. God isn't contingent, doesn't change, and isn't composite Mormons don't worship God they worship a super man
@@BryceCarmony do you realize that early Christians used to believe that God had a body? It was the Greeks that brought in the idea that God didn't have a body and that was about 200 AD. Learn history.
Hi @@BryceCarmonyit seems you are mis-understanding what we believe. If you read the book of Mormon on the first page you will find that is was written "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God". I hope this helps.
Thanks for your patience as I uploaded, I apologise for a lower video quality than usual - this was due to some technical difficulties. We figured rather than troubleshooting extensively, it would be better to get it up straight away instead. Also, some of the images are representative of what Neal refers to, but not the actual artefact (when an image isn’t specifically available).
Audio is good. Don’t sweat it!
Honestly, I don't understand why plate size is the hill that Trent wants to die on here.
Even if he was totally right about the plates, assuming everything else was the same, it still wouldn't shake my faith in the least. But these people are desperate, and they have to attack from some point.
Honestly I don't understand why Mormonism is the hill anyone want to die on ...
It's not the hill he wants to die on, is it?
He's laid out heaps of arguments against mormonism.
This was just a follow-up video responding to the (hilariously bad) responses others made to this particular argument he made.
If only most theological arguments were this obvious...
Thanks for a great interview, Ben! I appreciate all the visuals you added, but I do want to clarify for viewers that many of the visuals are representations and not the actual artifacts I am referring to. 😅
Yes, many are representative but actual images weren’t accessible. Thanks Neal!
@@nealrappleye9500 Love your work Neal. I’m just wondering whether you've read Don Bradley’s book on the lost pages, which reveals that there were much more than 116
Goodness me. The details of what the plates measured and character size is all a bit navel gazing! Who cares? All I know is that the words of the BoM are amazing! The eternal principles contained therein support my testimony of Jesus Christ! One young man, of farming stock, little formal education, and childlike faith, was able to obtain this ancient record, translate it so quickly, and share it (with much more spiritual wisdom, patterns, poetry) with the world.
I can not and never would deny that I have this knowledge, witnessed to me by the Holy Ghost and many spiritual experiences. The more I learn from close reading of the BoM and expert linguistic teaching, the more fully I appreciate what a miracle it is!
Thanks, Ben, for another stimulating video! ❤
I think Jerry Grover covers it in great detail. we should spam Trent with it so he can read it.
Great interview!
All this because Trent lost a debate
"...I like inches..." Neal just lost all credibility with me ;-).
7:12 "as thin as 0.15 inches". Let's see here, at that thickness you could get about 7 plates per inch or 14 plates total. Check your math and claims of 200 plates. I think that you meant to say 0.015", but even assuming that this were the case you would never get 200 gold plates in the 2" unsealed portion.
Gold is very heavy by volume compared to Steel, and especially compared to aluminum.
Very thin plates could be damaged very easily. 1/2 MM thick seems a bit much unless they didn't care about weight and wanted them Bomb proof. At 1/2 mm thick, I would guess the weight to be 70~90 pounds. At the time the plates were written, the plates most likely were alloyed with Copper. This was done in old world. This significantly strengthened the Gold allowing for thinner plates. If the copper content was low enough, corrosion couldn't happen. Corrosion/Tarnish, is the BIG benefit of Gold versus any other metal excluding Titanium. Even Hebrew short hand, 40 plates is illogical unless writhing so small an magnifying glass was needed. And ,that is even more illogical. I have experience working with Gold. I have made Jewelry with gold.
One of many proofs, BoM was divinely translate is: Because Hebrew doesn't use vowels. How did Joseph know what vowel to use if NOT Inspired Translation?
Even today, Hebrew translators have an extremely difficult of what vowels to use.
The evidence the BoM is divinely translated, is VASTLY WAY BEYOND a DIMINISHING return.
The problem is - Trent got his butt kicked in his debate with Jacob Hansen. Mostly because he refuses to take us seriously enough to do his own research on our faith. And because of his refusal, all he can do is quote long debunked, anti Mormon content from centuries ago. It’s a shame really.
I was raised Mormon, my family is Mormon. I left many years ago, not for the silly reasons many do, like, they don't let women have the priesthood, or haven't yet approved gay marriage and transgenderism, etc. A few things:
1) There was no "great apostasy." Contemporaries Mormon apologists effectively grant this in shifting from a doctrinal apostasy to merely one of priesthood authority. Hence talk these days of the "ongoing restoration."
2) Nature of God. The Mormon understanding of the nature of God is grotesque and heretical. (Once a man, plurality of gods, denial of the Trinity)
3) Doctrine of Creation (rejection of ex nihilo)
4) Acquired Godhood (instead of the more reasonable orthodoxic theosis)
5) The obvious non historicity of the Book of Mormon
6) Temple rites. Pointless, freemasonic ripoffs.
Man i dont understand why you guys say this. Hansen made some pretty dumb points "mormon marriages last longer therefore the bom must be divinely inspired" srly?
@@fireinthesky2333 Your list of 6 is little different in quality than the reasons you personally find silly. Those with same-sex attraction or desires to have the priesthood don't find those to be silly.
Each of your 1-6 can be answered just as well as women/priesthood, LGBTQ issues, etc. It seems you find silly where you agree with the LDS Church, as a Roman Catholic. And don't find as silly what undercuts your Roman Catholicism.
Greek philosophy answers much of #1-4. There was an Apostasy. LDS scholars don't say there wasn't a Great Apostasy. They simply reject that all truth was lost, there were no good people, the mirror shattered in 1000 shards with the Apostles' deaths, etc. Mormons should refine their understanding of the Great Apostasy. Not reject the concept.
Saints veneration, infant baptism, loss of understanding about nature of God (Greek philosophy corruption), personal and moral corruption within the Catholic leadership, and other aspects are all hallmarks of a great apostasy.
The Trinity was created along with ex nihilo creation out of nothing a few centuries after Christ. These are historical facts. These changes affect how you view Jesus, God, and yourself as creatures. Not literal children of God.
You show your ignorance with #5.
You show your ignorance & lack of respect with #6. Masonry had some, but not the greatest impact on the endowment. The drama is about creation and other topics. Masonry's role is fully absent in other aspects outside the endowment. Were you really LDS? You sound quite uninformed.
Good luck.
@@nealljones Heh heh I see your updated/edited comment. It seems you're on board with theological approval of LGBTQ'ism, despite, I don't know, the Apostle Paul repeated denunciations, and 2000 years of Christian teaching. And hey, why not? Your "prophet" can just have another revelation when the social pressures get too much. The Mormon Church has a long history of this kind of thing: Brigham Young said polygamy was an eternal principle and Mormons would never stop, woops, see 1890. Or, see Brigham Young's procephies on the curse of Ham, and boy, post civil rights it was awfully convenient that the "prophet" revealed that blacks weren't cursed after all. Here's the hilarious lowdown on this one too: the Mormon church's teaching on blacks and the priesthood directly violates the Article of Faith which locates responsibility of sinfulness to each person's actions. Quite a pickle. This is why the Mormon Church, aware of this, taught that black people were less valiant in the pre mortal existence. Weird. You won't see many Mormons teach that today, will you? Wonder why.
@@franciscopalacios4638agreed - I feel like I watched a different debate.
I'm always skeptical of anybody who presents "proof" for or against anything, particularly those pertaining to history, and even more so those pertaining to spirituality. With history, we can only speculate on what any given individual was thinking, or was motivated by (we get it wrong analyzing the living, and often even ourselves). We lack a precise understanding of culture, context, motivation... Spirituality adds the further complexity of the requirement of faith. If - as nearly every ancient scriptural document indicates - we are expected to live by faith, then the idea that some sort of irrefutable proof will present itself... is an absurd contradiction.
Good job, guys.
No wonder they needed spectacles to read the script. Maybe the spectacles were used during the engraving process?
Trent Horn either does sloppa-tier research, or is too financially motivated to be honest.
Trent is really outside his lane.
Does Neal have any contact info?
At 5:56, it is claimed that 0.5 mm "is actually a very thick estimate for the plates, they could be much thinner". Where are you getting this from? Are you assuming that people 2400 years ago with (presumably) relatively crude tools would make metal plates with a co-planarity of greater than 0.5 mm over a diagonal of 250+ mm? Do you realize how hard that would be? It is disappointing that you do not include the account of Sidney Rigdon where he claimed that there were a total of 14 gold plates. The reason for the small number of plates was obvious to the early saints who believed that the characters in reformed egyptian stood for many words in english - perhaps 20-40. To ignore this leaves this presentation wanting.
Did you listen all the way through? They adress many ancient artifacts that have been found that acheive this level of thinness.
@@cameronvantassell9483 Please point me to a time stamp where they address ancient plates that are at least 6x8" and have a coplanarity of 0.5 mm or less. It's not just the thickness of the metal that matters, it's the ability to stack them on top of each other and maintain a total thickness as described.
@scottvance74 Be honest. It doesn't matter what artifacts have been found or may be found in the future, you will disbelieve the origin of The Book of Mormon. Since the 1830s, the goal posts have consistently moved when new evidence has come forward. Until you open yourself to the possibility of truth and read the book with the desire to know the truth, it doesn't matter what evidence there is. But, that's your right and will be judged thus, as will I also be. Best of luck!
@@cameronvantassell9483 I find it fascinating that you "know" so much about me even though you don't know me. I have read the Book of mormon with as sincere a desire as anyone. I read it multiple times prior to baptism at age 8. I read the D&C by myself by age 9. I read the (full) Bible on my own as a teenager and had read the Book of Mormon more than a dozen times prior to my mission. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in my mission that knew more about the scriptures than I did. I often won the scripture chases in seminary as I had the 25 required scriptures memorized. I am aware of many but not all of the various evidence claims for and against the Book of Mormon. But we're here to discuss this video and its claims, which I found wanting. You made a claim that there were multiple ancient plates which were thin and I asked for specifics. I made a claim that Rigdon stated that there were only 14 plates. I am willing to provide evidence for my claim. Can you provide evidence for your claim so that we have something substantive to discuss, or do you prefer to simply go for ad hominem attacks regarding my sincerity or lack of effort to find "truth"?
Awesome work by Neal and Jerry
29:23 I’m just wondering whether Neal has read Don Bradley’s book on the lost pages, which reveals that there were much more than 116
Yes, I have a footnote in the written version that discusses it. In short, it's not a settled issue and some scholars have critiqued Bradley's proposal of a longer manuscript. I am open to the lost manuscript having been longer, but for the purposes of estimating a total number of plates I decided to just go with the 116 number, as a means of establishing a minimum required plate count. Obviously, if you lengthen the lost manuscript it becomes another variable you have to adjust for.
Dipping your toes into breaking news apologetics? 😆
Haha! Only this once! I had seen Neal's presentation so had to get his wisdom out there.
Wow, his arguments seem so compelling until you learn just a little more and realize how many assumptions he is making.
Completely agree
What is "Toomboga" (sp)???
Tumbaga is a gold-copper alloy (+ silver sometimes) that was used a lot in ancient South & Central America and was acid treated to make the surface look like pure gold.
The Book of Mormon is true. My source: The Holy Ghost.
He's the most reliable source, honestly!
@@ArchStanton340 How do you know that's the Holy Ghost? I'm curious.
So you're not interested in actually engaging with the actual content of this video?
@@danielstark8356 I'm not sure if your question is directed at me, but in case it is: I'm interested in the commenter who said they know the Book of Mormon is true on account of the Holy Ghost. My question is not asked in bad faith, I'm genuinely interested in how this person knows that the Holy Ghost is communicating to them the truth of the Book of Mormon.
@@fireinthesky2333 They were replying to me. I come from a dysfunctional non practicing LDS family and aside from just being baptized out of custom I was definitely not raised LDS. When I was teenager I was invited to attend LDS seminary and learn about the Book of Mormon by the local teachers who somehow knew I wasn't enrolled and I said sure I'd come. I didn't understand LDS doctrine much at all but I knew I felt really really good and I really liked learning about the Book of Mormon and I only ever felt that good feeling while I started reading the Book of Mormon so much so that it became my favorite class.
At the of the school year I was so enthralled by what I was learning and felt that I decided to go start going to church when I was a teenager. I never felt the Holy Ghost growing up and when I started reading the Book of Mormon his influence was unquestionably powerful and real. You asked how I know and its simply that when I started doing church things I felt his influence in my life which was something I never felt before when I wasn't. When I've sinned in a variety of ways, I felt his condemnation and withdrawal from my life. I have felt his influence to be a more compassionate and loving person and to be better than I currently am.
Just like the challenge of explaining color to a person born blind, I don't know how to adequately explain the promptings of the Holy Ghost other than to invite a person to read the Book of Mormon for themselves. The Holy Ghost will testify to its truth to anyone who reads it and will extend his influence to constant companionship to anybody who follows it teachings. The question is simply whether someone will receive or reject his witness with most people rejecting him and explaining away what they felt because they don't like what he told them.
How can you engrave words a millimeter tall? You havent answered this or shown proof of it
If you want to prove the acience, then show us how you can make a thin plate of tumbaga using tools grom meso america, and then show us a double sided page of charachers that are 1.7 mm tall please. If you cant then why are you posting
Did you even listen to the podcast? He addresses that ancient tumbaga things have been found that meet this thickness. If they are truly that thin, the characters can be much bigger because the number of sheets can be much greater.
@cameronvantassell9483 I didn't listen to the episode
@@timothyfowers they even talk about ancient metals found and how big the writings on them are. Watch it yourself and judge on your own, but it is definitely feasible based upon known ancient artifacts.
I hope this isn’t a growing trend for Catholics on how they treat LDS. It used to be mostly Protestants but I’ve seen a growing number of Catholic channels now “debunking” LDS.
The overwhelming majority of Catholics I deal with are very kind, I have hosted many on this podcast
@@forallthesaintspod I agree. The issue seems to be the “debunking” videos get more views so there is an incentive for this kind of thing to grow.
I agree it's not the mainline Catholics that are in any way a problem. I have to be honest though, I think some of this is a numbers game. What I mean is, in Protestant-Land America, the 3 Christian faiths that are growing are the Catholics, the Orthodox and Us.
People are desperate for community, meaning and meaningful ritual.
Protestantism, especially in America, is very individualistic, and anti- ritual.
I also think that our premise that there was an Apostasy is baseline offensive to them. It's different than saying that the church needed reformation, it's a TOTAL rejection of their foundation, which is the idea that the Trinity and other creeds were handed down by the apostles.
All 3 of the listed groups are the only Christian faiths that claim to carry divine authority. And one of us is right.
I kinda lost respect for Trent as a genuine truth seeker.
Not because we don't share certain beliefs but because of his lack of due diligence and ability to acknowledge positives in our arguments.
Agreed. Which is why I felt compelled to do this video, it’s not my usual tone of content but I felt it important to provide an evidence-based counter
Trent is definitely smart enough to know that the evidence is strong and can justify faith. I have little doubt he thinks that. Just won't admit it.
Convenient that the Mormons don't have the plates it's hilarious they still use the KJV so it matches the ridiculous language Smith was apeing
I think according to your argument it’s actually quite inconvenient we don’t have the plates 😄 but instead faith is required
@@forallthesaintspod it didn't require faith to know Mormonism is false. God isn't contingent, doesn't change, and isn't composite Mormons don't worship God they worship a super man
@@BryceCarmony do you realize that early Christians used to believe that God had a body? It was the Greeks that brought in the idea that God didn't have a body and that was about 200 AD. Learn history.
@@charlenelundquist3512 God incarnate has a body but he wasn't created like the Mormons claim
Hi @@BryceCarmonyit seems you are mis-understanding what we believe. If you read the book of Mormon on the first page you will find that is was written "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God". I hope this helps.
Joseph Smith: "Trust me bro". Pretty much the essence of it.