BUILD: Dust Separator
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- This is an easy-to-build dust separator with a baffle. It works because the incoming air is forced around the outside wall, where the heavier dust and chips fall into the large trash can below. When driven with a blower like I use, the baffle removes the need for a standalone dust collection system (which not everyone has the money, space, or power to accommodate). When used with a shop-vac, this simple dust collector will greatly prolong the life of your filters and prevent the constant need to empty the vacuum bin, which is typically small and difficult to remove.
For a full write up please visit www.instructab...
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FINALLY, someone using TITEBOND 3 waterproof glue. Real wood glue. Thank you! That glue is so much better than regular wood glue, it's not even the same thing, it dries more like an epoxy resin, it's absolutely amazing. Regular cheap wood glue, which all the TH-camrs seem to be using, is trash, it shrinks so much that it basically totally disappears and evaporates into nothing. For the small cost difference, the Gorilla Ultimate Glue or Titebond 3, are way better, and can used for larger gaps if necessary.
Yeah. You're good. Have an understanding of your viewer's point of view and need to comprehend what you are doing. Smart! Six years since you made this. Many have done so since. I'd say yours is still one of the clearest.
jonnsmusich thank you!
Love it! No long drawn out explanations. Just gettin'er done!
When I get to building my duct collection separator, you're my man . Thanks.
Hi, I just watched your video and I can say that this is the best video I have ever watched when it comes to DIY information, your selfless deeds over come em all, It dont require anyone interested to buy any plans, and its even backed up with video instruction every step of the way. As for a newbie like me this is a treasure. I hope you inspire many more wood workers like me and talented wood workers like you to share their talent. All I can say is " YOUR THE MAN" Keep up the good work. God bless.
Just bought that bandsaw. Set it up last night. I will really have to start thinking about dust collection. Thanks for the video!
Whatever you do don't use the setup blade that is shipped with, it's total garbage. Pay the money for a nice blade from someone like "Timber wolf" or "Wood Slicer" the blades from the home store are trash too. they will cut but they are loud and leave really ugly cuts that require tons of sanding.
TabLeft Thanks for the advice. I bought 2 timberwolf blades along with the saw. the blade that came with didn't even get tensioned. heh
Great video and the step by step instructions in your link will be invaluable when I build my dust collection system. Great job!
This is the nicest version a dust separator i've found on youtube. I think I am gonig this route... though I have never worked with plexi before.
jon Q Thanks!
Excellent configuration with your DW735 Planer - no additional energy used! Your application is significant for a second reason - minimal loading on the planer's exhaust port. This is important because the exhaust port is also used for motor cooling. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you!
Beautiful cyclone! I'm impressed.
Thank you!
I think this is a really practical approach. I see too many people who mistakenly think a cone shape is necessary for the aerodynamics. Hopefully you now own a benchtop scroll saw.
I agree with others, you have the nicest separator on YT. Awesome work sir. How I have lived for so long dumping and brushing and blowing out filters is a mystery. You have literally changed my life with this build.
+Jason Kobos Thanks! glad you like it. I certainly can't live without mine =)
It's one of the best I ever saw before. Very simple and very effective. Thanks.
Very nice, this is one of my 2015 builds. Your method seems a lot more straight forward. Thanks
Thank you!
I really like the way you used the mounting bracket as a jig to cut the proper radius on the inlet pipe. I need to build one of these for my 3hp collector and will be using some of you methods on it. Thanks for the video.
Thanks, I'd love see how yours comes out.
TabLeft
I'll keep that in mind and let you know when I get to it. By the way what thickness of lexan did you use and is it holding up.
1/16 which seems like it would be too thin but is actually really strong once mounted at the top and bottom.
Thanks for the information and God bless.
Tableft, thanks for posting your video on this separator. I am about half way through building one and it has been a fun and relatively easy build. I have a Delta one h/p collector and I up graded it with a canister filter. From what I have read they say you should have a separator in place before even using it one time so as not to plug up the canister. I am looking forward to hooking this thing up.
I build guitars and the dust gets pretty bad at times. This should help. Thanks again.
Thanks! Good Luck with the build!
Dude you have some serious toolskills and machines. My HERO!!!!
Thanks :)
I have watched a crap load of cyclone builds on youtube till I'm crosseyed. I'm done looking I am going to copy your design to upgrade a Harbor Freight single stage. The key points were not using metal trash can and using thin hardboard for baffle. Thanks for sharing video.
+BulletBob777 glad you liked it! Thanks for watching 👍
I'm very impressed. Might try this design for the one that I'm working on now!
Nice work brother. Very clean and precise. I like how to focused on certain specific details like marking the shape of the intake port using the port itself as a template. .
Thank you!
Fantastic construction.
Dikotomii X Thank you!
Nice work, kind of mesmerizing to see into it....
Very good. I'm impressed with your knowledge and abilities. Keep up the good work.
+ccr542 Thank you!
I have a 30 gallon plastic barrel I got from work I can use. The trick is how to fasten the top to the barrel. It doesn't have a lid, only two bungholes with bung caps. The vessel was used to store soft drink concentrate. I can cut the top out with a jigsaw.
Excellent work !
13:45. Do you have a better video showing all the different angles. It was somewhat difficult to see the finished product, and how you made your baffle. You jumped ahead pretty fast and didn't show the inside chamber. This is an amazingly high quality build, that is maybe the cleanest one I've see yet, most people have a lot of difficulty with breaking the acrylic or using too much glue, and making things look ugly. This is a clean, clean project.
Nice Job, I may have to make one of these.
Great build! One idea... In regards to the pressure during use of the planer. What if you were to use a vent made from PVC on the top. One that you could close or cap during use of only the planer. I wonder how much "stuff" would get out, if any. I`m not sure you would even need the vacuum. Right now I just have my planer hose stuck in a barrel. Works but have two different barrels to empty.
+Marc Merz when I use the planer I don't use the vacuum at all. My planer has a blower in it so I blow the shavings into the system rather and sucking them out, so In those cases I leave the top wide open
Thanks for posting....nice design!
Thanks for watching!
i should have asked is there a mininum diameter for this collector to work
I like it. Job well done!
I built one similar to this using a plastic garbage bin. After a few uses, the garbage bin collapsed inward from the vacuum pressure of the whole setup. I would suggest making sure that one gets a pretty strong plastic garbage bin or reinforcing a regular garbage bin before spending a lot of time building this contraption.
E Castle I use mine with the shop vac from time to time and it’s not been an issue but more often I use it with my dewalt 735 planer which has a built in blower so I actually have the opposite issue. I have to clamp the lid on to keep it from popping off
I've seen dozens and dozens of cyclone and Top Hat builds, yours is without question the best! One quick question, is the baffle at the bottom really necessary? Wouldn't the material simply fall into the can if there was no baffle? Again, absolutely fantastic video!
Thank you! as for the baffle you could probably do without it but having it keeps the upper air current from disturbing and kicking up any of the dust in the bottom. So it's just one more level of filtration.
Very good, I need to build myself one like yours.
+Robert Brunston thanks! There's a link to the build article in the description. It has a lot more detail.
Great design, great video.
I considered doing that but decided it would take longer than I wanted and probably cost more than a commercial one.
So I bought a Grizzly G0443 cyclone, installed with all ducting about $1,500.
I would post a pic but comments do not allow that.
Just watched your video and noticed something different from all others.....you cut away 120 degrees from the bottom plate and left 240 degrees. Everyone else does just the opposite. They cut away the 240 degrees and leave the 120, but it looks like that setup is going to work for you. Nice build.
Steve Hougham yeah mine was done that way intentionally. Doesn't seem to affect the performance at all and this way is more stabile since it's not center supported
Very nice work and attention to detail. I have one question - did you purposely reverse the ratio of your baffle slot? Thien's design calls for 120º of the baffle to be closed and the other 240º to be the open slot. Your separator obviously works, but it would probably be even more efficient with the Thien design paramaters.
Yeah It was intentional, I have used the 1/3 baffle designed before and it worked so well I didn't see any need to deviate. I'm honestly not sure if the 2/3 baffle would be better or worse but if it ain't broke why fit it right?
Great build, good skills, weird camera placement.
good work
Thank you! It's been super useful!
Nice job!..Really nice video.
Thank you!
Hi folks, I am Bob Crane and I live in southern Ontario. I have a couple of design/engineering questions about Thein seperator design. All of the limited engineering skills that I have lead me to believe that there is some defineable relationsip between the diameter of the baffle chamber and the cfm rating of the air supply. Vacuums are slower yet more powerful that blowers. Does the air speed affect the seperation efficiency and is there an engineering formula to follow if I know the cfm of my vacuum? My second question relates the thickness of the secondary baffle. I am building a "top hat" separator and find myself wondering if I should use 19mm ply or 1/4" mdf. All feed back is welcome
Great job and thanks for sharing. At the end of video when using your planer - am I understanding that you just connect it straight in w/out the vacuum?
David Hodge Thats correct, that planer (amzn.to/1enR8A9) has a powerful blower in it that is more than sufficient to drive the cyclone. It was actually created specifically for this application since I have a pretty poor power setup in my shop and cant run dust collection with a power hungry tool like the planer. Its works fine for both applications the only difference is when you are blowing in rather than sucking out you need to clamp the lid on.
Really nice!
Thanks!
I built one based on this and it works great, BUT I have destroyed 2 plastic trash cans already, including a Rubbermaid one just like in this video. It collapsed immediately.
I guess my 20 year old Craftsman 16 gal. 6.25 horsepower vacuum is just too much. Luckily, I was able to adjust the base to fit a metal can, but it flexes ominously and makes a scary "boing" sound every time I accidentally block the end of the hose.
Jimichan wow.. yeah you have a much more powerful vac than i do! also i use this almost exclusively for my planer which blows air in rather than sucking it out. Maybe add some wooden supports to the outside of the can to strengthen it?
Hi, great video there but I must point out one thing: Your shopvac probably threw away any dust that was coming to it. It's not a major issue as your dust collector is probably over 99% effective, but showing inside the shop vac was pointless with such a more efficient dust collector!
If he had a filter in the shop vac he would have been fine
And now there is a newer design for the Thein baffle. One that allows you to use the bottom half of your existing shop vac and incorporate the baffle design between the shop vac head and the bucket dust collector eliminating the extra 2nd waste (garbage can) footprint and the additional hose.
There are 3 TH-cam videos that demonstrate this newer design "Last Minute Thoughts", "Justin Depew" and "Marius Hornberger". They totally eliminate the extra hose between the shop vac and the dust collector giving their design a less Frankenshtein look and eliminating the unnecessary larger footprint space of the 2nd dust collector.
This new design will allow you to utilize the entire shop vac and give your shop vac a more stylish design and the ability to see cyclone dust collection in action in a much more streamline form factor and cut down or eliminate the time it takes to clean the shop vac filter for maximum vacuum performance.
Turns out this new modification of the Thein baffle is an inexpensive as well as necessary upgrade for maximizing vacuum and user experience.
merci je n'avais pas fait attention a la description je vous explique mon projet j'ai une cuve d'un mettre cube a faire avec un tuyau de 10 metre a la sortie , qu'en pensez vous ? votre cyclone sera t'il suffisant ?
Good build. Straight forward design. A little commentary would help.
Where did you get your polycarbonate? Please send link. Thank you.
Nice video, I noticed that the slot in the bottom of the baffle is shorter than any other I have seen. All of the others have a length that is equal to 240 degrees of the diameter yours is equal to 120 degrees, only half that of any other I have seen. Doe's it still work properly? or was it just a simple layout mistake? I am using your design to make one as we speak so I was just curious. Thanks.
It was done intentionally but experimentally. Since the material was thin and attached around the outside edge I wanted to leave as much material as possible for support. I was planning on needing to tune it to perfect the size, and was fully prepared to replace it with a thicker material and a more traditional 240deg slot, but It works so well at 120deg that i never bothered to. Like I said it works great as is but it might work even better with the large slot, I just never tried. If you go that route I would love to hear the results. I will happily change if it works better.
Hello, what was the end height of the entire system. I'm going to be building this model and want it to sit in my dust collector cart
this was a video! very nice upload. I hope you get more views.
Thanks!
Would you mind showing or describing how the baffle is positioned in relation to the entry shoot?
+Mandi Watrous its positioned just behind the inlet port
Teşekkür ederim kardeşim
Ok. This is a must-make for our shop! All the parts are already in the shop. Thanks for an excellent design! Do you offer plans/dimensions for purchase?
+ReViveIndustries nothing for purchase but there's a more detailed write up linked in the description
bonjour bravo pour cette réalisation ! est ce que vous avez un plan a télécharger ?
jouet bois Désolé, je dois aucun plan disponible, mais il ya des détails dans la description qui devrait répondre à la plupart de vos questions.
I thought the cut out in the 1/4" material or whatever you used at the bottom of the thein dust separator is usually reversed from that. You cut a slot 3/4 of the way around the circle, and leave 1/4 holding it. It looks like you only cut out 1/4 and left 3/4. It seems to work well enough obviously, just curious if you had a reason for doing it that way.
David Aguirre yeah I know and it was intentional due to the thickness of the material I had on hand. If I did the 2/3 it would have been to flimsy of a connection. It’s not been an issue at all though I still use it all the time.
Great video, congratulations for your excellent work, after several videos this is the one to go for, my only question is what are the specs of your shop-vac, CFM, HP etc..?
@proculap The bottom baffle opening was positioned just behind the inlet port. I could probably have moved it more underneath the inlet but just behind it seems to work quite well.
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Lego to make a ipad
Ray Kaldeway what?
TabLeft Workshop sorry about that. Maybe I should sign myself out of my sons iPad
I watched your video earlier and he thought he was doing a search but commented instead. Great video. Love the circle jig for the bandsaw as well.
I looked through the comments and couldn't find any measurements, and I was also wondering where and what type of plastic you used.
There are some measurements in the description and the plastic is 1/16th polycarbonate cut 8" tall.
@@TabLeft what is the diameter of the dust collector
Quick question, would this be a good match for the Harbor Frieght Dust collection? Just the blower part of course.
blizana6 I usually see people use a different style with the HF but there’s no reason it couldn’t work, the only concern would be making sure that you use a trash can that’s strong enough not to collapse under the vacuum created (or you can reinforce the kind of can use)
W.bonse@gmail.com
Just a question, Is the any vacuum in the lower section that can collapse the container, will almost any material work for the lower-section?
+David Januszewski well if you use it like i do with a blower then there is actually a positive air pressure in the system so it wont collapse infact you have to clamp the lid on to keep it from popping off. I do also use it with a pretty beefy shop vac which works just fine but i've never tried hooking it up to a larger whole shop dust collection system.
Thanks, What I'm thinking is to separate a regular Shop-Vac, putting the separator between the vacuum-unit and base dust-receptacle.. Have tried anything like this?
+David Januszewski yeah I did it with a bucket vacuum a while ago works great th-cam.com/video/1Pn5EQJcRys/w-d-xo.html
So the conical form, you see often is not needet ?:-o
Tableft, I was trying to find the polycarbonate in 1/16" thickness but I haven't been able to. Sure it's 1/16"?
Yeah I even ran out and double checked it with a micrometer, it was purchased from a local plastics distributer called Tap Plastics. They have a store near me but they also do online ordering. www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/cut_to_size_plastic/polycarbonate_sheets/516 not sure if this is the exact same stuff or not though the protective sheet on mine says "Makrolon" hope that helps.
WOOOW KEREN SEKALI COYYY
What a nice job
thank you for the video.
Just a question please ? Where do you put the last piece of wood ? The circle with a 1/3 off on the edge ?
Thank you to the one who can explain it to me.
Best regards from Paris
Antoine
Antoine Jumelle goes on the bottom as a baffle. It’s attached at 13:42
Thank you very much for your answer.
I imagine it is necessary to obtain a typhoon/Tornado.
How did you seal the seam on the poly sheet?
Just finished a same separator, and even use the same bucket for collecting dust, but when I turn on the vac, the bucket get squeezed up. The bucket wall is too thin to support the pressure? or I shouldn't seal all the joint edges?
I have a pretty high power vac connected to mine but never had any indication of collapse. The trash bin might be different wall thickness? Might be possible to reinforce it.
Thanks for the reply, I bet Brute bucket won't collapse easily :D.
I got two Roughneck 20 Gal, one grey and one black, I will try the black one tomorrow, otherwise I am thinking of cutting a ring to support the middle section of the bucket if I have to
no guide rail with the table saw? savage! lol... I REALLY like that trick with the router though.
Johnathan Wuethrich lol trust me I used the fence, you just can’t see it in the shot. The camera is looking over the top of it
Hallo! Great! Do you know the specifications of your vacuum cleaner? Can I use this system also for a planer?
Can you eplain why the cut slot and then glue in fill at 2:40? Was that the same piece as before or another? Was the center cut out of it used for another part of this build?
+redroofretriever The center becomes the top of the collector, the slot was a just a byproduct of using the bandsaw to cut the circles, so the slot needed to be filled.
+TabLeft Workshop Very nice project, and video. Thanks for clarifying.
since you used a router to make the groove, why not put in a straight bit to cut the inside hole? no split to have to close up.
Carl Marshall The kerf needs to be the same width as the wall material so I can reuse the cutout as the top later. This is the easiest way to make a perfect circle with minimal kerf. You could do what you're proposing but you would need a second piece of ply. It's all explained in the write up, and a few comments up.
вдвойне приятно наблюдать как крутятся опилки
Спасибо!
Very nice build. Question: why did you use your bandsaw on the inner cut, requiring the wooden stick to close the hole, rather than just using a saber saw?
Pat Farrell Thank you! There are several reasons i picked the band saw for that cut. Its a lot faster and theres less risk of messing up, the circle jig cuts perfect circles every time with minimal kerf, and no need for a starting hole which would be much thicker than my polycarbonate. The inner circle, outer ring, and gap between needed to be very consistent and specific. I basically didn't want to risk going off the line, and end up needing to sand it back into round which would increase the gap to larger than the thickness of my polycarbonate. If i didn't have a band saw I would have used the jig saw with a circle jig and filled and sanded the starting hole back to smooth.
TabLeft Workshop Very nice work! I have also seen people who made it a cone instead. Which one works better?
TabLeft Workshop Or since you already had the circle jig for the router set up, you could have used a 1/4" plunge bit and made a thru cut (with inside and outside pieces attached to a waste support so they wouldn't shift), that would have produced a good surface requiring no cleanup.
That would have produced a 1/4" slot... I needed a 1/16" slot.
TabLeft Workshop Duh. Sorry, wasn't thinking, I forgot you were using the inside circle too.
Great build ... I'm bookmarking this video for sure.
At 5:47, I thought for a moment that you had suddenly got mugged by intruders!
WHAT! No shop vacuum filter in the final test?! Of course there was little dust in the bottom of the shop vacuum. How do we know how much went through the separator, then the vacuum, and right back into the shop.
this isnt a filter is for pre filter separation
All the fine dust went right into the air. Look at the floor. That's the tattle tail.
Also notice he doesn't show the blower during the test.
@@TabLeft he wasn't talking about the separator he was talking about the shop vac having no filter
can someone explain what a dust separator does? isnt it just the same thing as a dust collector?
It's meant to be used as a first stage before the collector. It pre filters (separates) the dust and chips from the air stream before getting to your main collection system and potentially damaging the impeller and clogging up your expensive filters etc. or when used with a shop vac it allows you to again save the filter with also improves suction but also have a much large capacity. And I use it primarily with my planer which has its own blower so I don't even need to use powered dust collection with it, just the passive separator
could you please tell me what the hand saw is that you use at 4:22...
Christian Mildh amzn.to/2fQLGdG
Man I need one of these as my neighbors are complain about the dust
Good..Good!👍
what is the diameter of the collector
What is the pipe used for the inlet? Obviously something that the vacuum hose will fit. Very impressive build, thanks.
Jeff Fisher the extra bit on the outside? Just bumps it up to fit a standard hose hose.
You should still have a filter in the shop vac
Nice!
I like the way you illustrated the build in your video, too. Clean and straightforward leaving just enough to the imagination for the viewer to adapt it to hisown needs. I'm giving you a thumbs up as soon as I figger which clicky thing to click for that. :-D
One question: how did you come up with the height between the top and the mounting base? Is that critical? Did I say "one" question?
Everything on this build was just my best guess that's why I tried to make it fairly tunable and easy to disassemble. I don't think the height is super critical but my gut instinct is that it should be about 2-2.5 times the input ports diameter just so the airflow coming back around can go around the incoming airflow to some degree. I figured it would decrease the turbulence inside if the air didn't have to violently merge back into the airstream . But all that's just my completely uneducated guess, I don't have any data to back up any of that.
Great build, really enjoyed seeing this go together.
All the other Thein's ive seen have had a 270-degree slot cut in the bottom to allow the dust to fall into the can below.
I always presumed that this was fairly critical but i notice that your leaves the entire bottom open.
Any particular reason for this?
The bottom of mine is actually covered but I only used a 120deg slot, this was partially because I wanted to start small and be able to tune it by making the slot larger and part because I used a thin material and wanted it to remain stable by having as much connection as possible. It worked so well as is that I never needed to tune the slot though.
I make and install the bottom baffle at around 12:45
TabLeft Yeah, that was my question also - 240 degrees is the "accepted norm" for the slot, with the dust intake positioned at the end of the slot. your much smaller opening had me wondering...
I built a mini version of this last summer using two 5-gallon buckets and it works exceptionally well - especially given the lack of care taken during it's construction and near-total lack of air-tightness (is that a word?).
Anyway - your video is a very good demonstration of helpful build tips. Thanks!
what is the diameter of the separater? nice job by the way
Gino Asci link in description
What type of hand saw were you using?
Just a little pull saw. It's my go to saw around the shop for small stuff.
www.amazon.com/Tools-Dovetail-Detail-4-Inch-213104/dp/B0001GLEZI
Where did you get your 1/16 inch Lexan from and how much did it cost you
www.tapplastics.com/ I forget how much it was but i bought more than i needed too.
15:17 Ok - that makes it close to 100%.
Very nice. Where did you get the polycarbonate?
Thanks, and it was purchased from Tap Plastics
Thanks. Was it just a polycarbonate sheet? What thickness did you go with? Seems fairly strong but still bendable.
Andrew Levine 8in tall 1/16th polycarbonate sheet. Most of the important stuff is in the video description.
Just one point, you measured out 240 degrees, but only cut the drop slot at 120 degrees. Yes, it works, but it would work better if the drop slot was 240 degrees.
Muzz Litebeer I know but this was largely created from scrap and the bottom material was so thin that 240 wouldn’t have been stable enough. 120 had yet to be an issue though
Hey! What is that transparent PVC foil? Can you give me some link?
1/16 inch polycarbonate I got mine from a local Tap Plasics
Thank you!
What thickness Makrolon did you use? Thanks. Great vid
1/16th and there are more details in the description
I thought i was the only one that used the dremel sanding wheel to cut plastic
Yeah I use anything that works. Do the best with what you have right? Thanks for watching!
Nice work... If you ever want to let the F-100 go in the background Please Let Me Know. Thanks of r the video...
Makes you want to suck up saw dust all day
Totally expected to see some fingers go flyin
+Martin Koch sorry to disappoint?
TabLeft Workshop
Not at all!
I was cringing like mad, hopeing to hell you wouldn't chop any off.
How many you still got?
Thats ok but I really want to see the TRUCK
Sadly it’s gone now I had to make room for more tools :)
Let me go into my garage and use all my imaginary tools to make this
Foamy seems like imaginary tools wouldn't require too much dust collection. =)
You needed to check your camera placement.
Mark Markin no I don’t, I don’t “need” to do anything. I’m not a videographer and have no intention of becoming one. I shared a project that I made so the community might benefit a little from it. You need to check yourself
good job,video is too close up.
Are you drilling on and generally using your table saw surface as a work bench? Yikes.
spacemansabs lol.. yes i do use my table saw a work surface although if i'm drilling through holes i hang it over the side obviously. The first hole wasn't a through hole so it was done on the table the second one at 13:00 was overhanging the table its just hard to tell in the video..
TabLeft Workshop They're your tools, I just wouldn't be hammering, or gluing on a nicely machined surface like that. Otherwise great video. Also do you expect any difference between the cylinder you have and the cone in other ones? They look like they both spin on account of the air coming in near tangent to the perimeter of the tube. I guess maybe the cone makes it drop into the bucket faster? Thoughts?
spacemansabs yeah unfortunately until i can make more room in my shop the table saw is basically the only solid work surface... as for the design my suspicion in that the cone will clear the chamber a bit faster since the dust will have a bit more drag on the outer wall but i'm not positive. Some fine dust will often try to stay in the air stream for awhile in mine, it never makes out of the machine since its forced against the outer edge but it might take a couple trips around the cylinder before if falls through which doesn't hurt anything. I don't think one or the other is necessarily better but i prefer the low profile over the big tall cone for my purposes .