Am I the only one who quite easily manages a regular diving into nostalgia and also enjoyment of new things without any conflicts? Why this constant trying of bringing old and new into conflict? I listen to music released this year as well as music that was released before I was born.
Same. Currently playing Metaphor Refantazio on my PlayStation and playing through Final Fantasy 9 on my switch whenever I’m out and about. Having a blast.
Good on you for finding a balance -- I think most people can and do. But there's always an contingent that decries any deviation in something they're familiar with. I have fun sometimes reading reviews of remakes where people complain about an objectively better experience because it lacks some quality the old one, if looked at objectively, never even had in the first place. Nostalgia goggles are sometimes just hard to take off.
Similarly, I don't have any difficulty looking forward to new stuff (I absolutely love Elden Ring, and I put 250 hours into Tears of the Kingdom), and I regularly look forward to playing older games that I played once or twice as a kid/teen. This is largely due to the fact that I didn't play games all the time and so there's much to return to that I didn't get to experience first hand but heard about from friends, or simply saw friends play. All the same, when a new indie game comes out, I look forward to seeing what's out there. I guess when you're spoiled for choice, it can quickly make people feel the pinch of choice paralysis OR relish the freedom of having so many options instead.
I respect the man who only wants a phone that calls. We waste time on a smart phones, and his conditionings from life tells him the smart phone isn't necessary, and he has no desire for it, so why spend the extra money?
Thank y'all so much for this great conversation! I needed to hear and implement this into my life this year. This is why I love this channel :) 1:01:07 Also, this exact same phenomenon of 'flatlining emotions' happened to me with my personality too, I'm glad I'm not alone with this. I've been pushing (and succeeding) to remedy it this year!
"Beauty of the landscape we call life" was really well put. Made me tear up a bit because impermanence softly hit me again, lately. My grandpa peacefully passed away. So thanks for this!
As someone who doesn't have a lot of time anymore to watch a lot of TH-cam videos I just wanna say that Resonant Arc is an incredible channel that I find quite refreshing on the internet. Interesting discussions and topics that I rarely see tackled in the video game industry. Much love and respect.
Phenomenal episode. Was really looking forward to this one! Top tier guest, and a topic that everyone could really learn a lot from, especially nowadays when this culture of obsession with the past is so prominent. While many are focusing on the media aspect of this, I think the most powerful application of this is in one's personal life and their emotional journey when dealing with fleeting sources of happiness. Those who struggle to move on suffer the most for longer, and end up missing the open doors into more opportunities for happiness, growth, and discovery. One of my favorite State of the Arc episodes, thanks for it, Mike.
Agreed. I think that's true for most people. If there was a critique anywhere in what we were talking about, it's only to the extent that the rear-view mirror of comfort becomes an object of pathology, which it does to some. There's nothing wrong with reminiscing or revisiting the past on occasion. Personally, I tend to do so hoping to find something new in the old though, something I didn't notice the first time around =)
Wow. I feel like im hearing exactly what ive never been able to articulate through both of your perspectives on emotionlesness or it being a performative thing. Thank you both!
I always thought of it as a conveyor belt!! And death is at the end! (Like the geno dome in Chrono Trigger… and you hear that scream)… also, this would have been a great prelude to the inevitable Xenoblade 3 podcast lol
This made me think about how many of the games made by Suda51 incorporate themes of characters having to come to terms to something in their past and having to move on, so much so that many of titles he worked or are known as the "Kill the past" collective. I wonder if we'll see a Podcast on this channel on some of these games like No More Heroes or Killer 7.
I used to genuinely worry about dying before things I was looking forward to were finished as well (I think the last one was Better Call Saul lol). I don't experience it anymore, but I see it as a blessing. Like you mentioned Mike, you found you favourite game in the last few years; we may not experience the giddy highs of hype, but even without it, life still has joyous experiences and surprises in store. I also find reflecting and being grateful that I've even reached a point where I feel somewhat 'quenched' by media experiences to help a lot. I'd also like to add, among the many great suggestions you both made, another way to find enjoyment in the old is to seek it in the new (this was somewhat touched on by Hian). Taking FF as an example, many things that are loved about it can be found in other things - it's crazy, heightened story-telling can be found in things like Nier and 13 Sentinels. It's long, satisfying, turn-based adventure of a rag-tag group of friends can be found in Persona and Yakuza. There's probably even better examples, but hopefully that portrays the jist.
This was a great video. As someone who often play old games to recapture good feelings of the past, it's true that I can never truly relive these moments. My old house, my old cat, my daily life at school, they are gone. The moment am living now will be gone too, and I should appreciate it while I am still alive to experience it. Thank you, I needed that.
I've been working on a lot of personal stuff lately, and I can't stress how important these last few episodes have been. I don't know if you guys were the catalyst to some of those reflections or if it's a case of synchronicity or whatever, but the notion of impermanence and the discussion about persona in the Alan Wake episodes have been so useful in my process. Thank you guys for the good work!
I find FFX to be an intensely strange and interesting examination of Mono No Aware. I can't tell if it's constantly talking down on those who stick to the status quo, or on those who try to change it, since so many of the diabolos ex machina are laser-guided at specifically the hope that things will change for the better. Whether it's FFX-2 or all the side stories extending from it, everyone who digs under the shallow layer of polite greetings is depressed as hell, and end the story 1 or 2 levels below "I am fine".
This is such interesting discourse. Around the 12 minute mark where you two are discussing how to explain an emotion, and that you can only fully learn to swim by going into the water, that resonates with me. First, it reminds me of the paper What It's Like to Be A Bat by T. Nagel, where he postulates that, while we can imagine how it experiencing the world by sonar might work, we will never know how it feels because we simply sdon't have the sense of sonar. Furthermore, that same topic reminds me of things I am diving into myself, where senses of security are FELT experiences. You HAVE to feel that security for it to work. Around the 26 minute mark you mention the transition from being a child under the care and sphere of influence of your parents, through adolescence where you have all these new experiences, into adulthood where priorities take over and the new experiences dwindle due to constraints. That is super interesting. Yes, at some point people might 'hold on' to the past because THAT is what they know. At some point I technically might get 'hang up' on the past experiences that shaped ME but the contemporary experiences that might pass me by will now shape the adults of the future.It's something I won't chase but others should. Around the 36 minute mark, Mike mentions that he used to firmly hold onto what the Spirit of Final Fantasy was but that he needed to move past it. But that revisiting old work is still enjoyable to him. Reminiscence is indeed important, but the balnance needs to be there, or maybe the acceptance should be there that you cannot exactly recapture the experience of the past, as Mike mentions. That's how I feel it. It reminds me of the Dark Souls-games. I can replay those games, but it will never be as impactful as the mystical First Playthrough where verything is new. It's so unique, and I can never re-experience that. Is being terrified of The Cliff the same as not accepting the impermeance of life? While I think it's perfectly fine not to enjoy modern experiences at a later age (new music, new tv, new movies), it would be a shame if that happened due to not being able to move on from the experiences that shaped me. If I try it yet don't understand it and it's 'just not for me,' that's fine. Hian mentions not getting hyped in his youth and that he, though his ex-wife, decided to to experience things more. That harkens back to what you two discussed in the beginning: the felt experience of something. And you two also discuss forcing it, or doing it without (or, really, before) fully experiencing a pleasurable experience, and that behaviour resuscitates your experience. That is so cool. I am trying to find my joy in life again. It's difficult but different therapists have told me that, in the end, I need to do it, go for it. "The present moment is impermanent. Now, now, now and now" is such a strong and ad rem statement by Hian. Simultaneously, the present moment IS permanent because it also IS here now, now, now and now. Wonderful podcast. Thanks, Mike and Hian!
Yeah, I really connected with Hian's bit about experiencing new things, and opening himself up to more emotional experiences. I'm at a point in my life where, though I am slowly opening up, I'm still very emotionally reserved. While I don't wanna lose that, it would be nice to feel more strongly about certain things. I just wish I knew what to do with bad experiences.
@@socialistprofessor3206 I super relate to this. When I first came to Japan, like many foreigners, I would occasionally teach English, and being around young people is extremely healthy, imo. It really help prevent you from becoming "old" in your ways.
Kieren & SocProf, I totally dig your replies. I completely understand what you are saying, Kieren. Being reserved, closed-off in my own way is something I have been struggling with these past few years, and I find it comforting in a sense to realise that I am not alone in this. I never realised I was this way and even though I knew something bothered me, I never really knew what was bothering me, what was dampening my enjoyment. Now that I know, it's still not easy but at least I know what to work on. What kind of 'bad experiences' are you refering to, if you don't mind me asking SocProf, glad to hear you are self-improving. I think it's important, no matter your age. I see it with someone close to me. They show very difficult behaviour, they get offers of help by proessionals, and they reject it because they think they're 'too old to change.' That choice hurts me in a way since I will be among the recipients of that unhealthy mindset and the resulting harmful behaviour.
Yeah so overall a great episode, my favorite probably yet because it's actually tackling a Japanese theme on its own terms. Shout out to Hian who I have talked to before and who has been a great resource on Japanese culture.
1:04:00 Another reason some people may not want to look forward to new things is due to disappointment fatigue. Partly because new things will always be different from the old, if only slightly, but mainly because people can easily fall into building unreasonable expectations by seeking the fleeting past in the new, that something could ever recapture that same lightning into the same bottle. The times change, things change and we as people aren't the same person we were in the past, the cells in our body are literally different. For me I feel that there's a responsibility, at least to myself, to set up reasonable expectations for new things. Instead of preemptively painting what I want or think something should be, instead when the new experience arrives I leave a blank canvas open to what may come and let it draw itself. Ultimately I just want to leave the door open to new things and control what I can control. Great episode, this conversation is helping me solidify thoughts and ideas I've been building up in the past few years.
1:01:10 Every time you share an aspect of your life I'm continually amazed at how much it mirrors my own. I used to think of myself as a class clown during my younger days in school and loved being the center of attention until slowly but surely developed a crippling fear of embarrassment and became more of an observer of life instead of an active participant.
This was a really cool discussion. I've come across the notion of mono no aware a few times but never really looked into it. I think a nice complement to mono no aware would be Nietzsche’s essay “On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Life”. While mono no aware emphasizes the value of the impermanence of objects, this impermanence is undercut by the tendency of the subject to convert this impermanence into relative permanence via memory. Nietzsche’s essay takes the more radical step of exploring the positive dimension of forgetting on the side of the subject and developing its ahistorical mode of being. Also, for the philosophically minded, the discussion of walking backwards towards one’s death is essentially the same idea explored in Martin Heidegger’s discussion of being-towards-death and our authentic and inauthentic relations to it.
I feel like in western game consumption and production, we refuse to let things die, as seen with all the modern remakes and remasters constantly being churned out and brought back to life against their will for a quick buck.
Thanks for that Hian essay, Ive been trying to adapt to a new job and the old life before that and those lines really placed me in the correct mind space
I really enjoyed the flow of this video. It can be very difficult to not talk over each other/cut each other off when you are not in the same room. You two were either very in tune with each other, or the editing was great (noticed some quick cuts here and there). Whatever effort was put into this made this very pleasant to listen to. Keep it up! The actual content was great as well. I was not aware of this concept and loved listening to you two talk about it.
Really cool discussion. Past games should be re-examined but never rehashed.from personal experience, revisting old games is fun. Sometimes you realize its no where as good as you remember, but sometimes you realize it's way better than you remember. Sometimes a game you used to hate you now love, and vice versa. Sometimes, it's a refined taste you acquire with age. Other times, its past games reflecting in an interesting way in comparison to contemporary culture and style. Games can appear to be way ahead of its era, in some cases making them feel timeless, but this is usually an illusion. Games are always of their time and era, but they hit the zeitgeist perfectly, making us remember them more vividly in comparison to the "decent" or "bad" games of the same era. Theres nothing wrong reminiscing about old favorite games, but its worth noting that all the "greats" that of their era are 99/100 times a FRESH experience. Very rarely do we talk about sequels when it comes to the "greats". Half life, shadow of colossus, super mario, final fantasy, gran theft auto, journey. Some of these games would go to on to have very succecfull sequels, but almost none would match their cultural influence of their very first iteration. This is why i love final fantsy, they managed to create a franchise all about keeping it fresh, and yet, all fans want is the same games, but fans dont know what is a fresh experiende is until it actually hits them in the face. So many games come out, with great reviews on metacritic, loved by their respective fanbase, yet they are forgotten within a month of their release because releasing a game simply following fan requests usually yields okay result at best. Fans should stick to being fans, and stop pretending they know better than the people making the freaking games and simply vote with their wallet. The internet was a mistake.
I'm way past the point of being nostalgic about things. My past doesn't even feel like my own at this point. I just enjoy being in the moment. I don't refer to who I was or what I liked to determine what I like. I just enjoy or criticize what's in front of me.
Great discussion, too many people linger on memories or feelings that they will never get back. Nostalgia is the killer of growth. This is definitely a hard sell to western audiences, a majority of our culture is based around such nostalgia. You can't get back what has already passed and trying to do so will only lead to a miserable existence. This reminds me of portions of Camus' philosophy.
Sounds like Xenoblade 3 is Mono No Aware - The Game, then. Learning about this now, and Miyabi, I can see the deeper meaning in the naming of the characters Mio and Miyabi in Xenoblade 3. I feel it's going to be the most interesting XB game for you guys to analyze! I've known about this concept for a long time, but didn't know there was this specific term for it.
Learn to value the present by understanding that the moment will never come again and that you cannot relive it easily. You never have as much time as you think you have, so it's normal to force yourself to possess the day with the trials and traumas that inevitably result. Be comfortable with the feeling of being uncomfortable. Learn to enjoy loss, but do not unnecessarily seek it.
Unless you live your life throwing out everything you come across because they'll disappear in the long term, giving up on human relationships before they even start etc, then I don't think I called your way of life that. That moniker was in regards to people taking Mono no Aware so seriously they refuse to hold on to anything what so ever, even for the briefest of time. I was warning against extremes. If you do live that way, then sure, to each their own. But, if you thought I said the opposite there, you might want to clear out your ears.
Spring and Fall Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844-1889) Margaret, are you grieving Over Goldengrove unleaving? Leaves, like the things of man, you With your fresh thoughts care for, can you? Ah! as the heart grows older It will come to such sights colder By and by, nor spare a sigh Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie; And yet you will weep and know why. Now no matter, child, the name: Sorrow's springs sre the same. Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed What heart heard of, ghost guessed: It is the blight man was born for, It is Margaret you mourn for.
I would never use terms as extreme as "discard" when talking about memories before trying a new game, BUT.... I have talked to people where I can see that could apply. It's absurdly frustrating to hold a conversation where every response is "but I liked [thing] more". I mean I'm not exactly a social butterfly, but there IS a point in the conversation where you have to say something different, right? What am I supposed to discuss?
Terranigma is one of my all-time favourite RPG of all time. I simply loved the SNES for all that games they brought us. Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana etc. I simply love them!
This is a great discussion - there's a fun video essay from Daryl Talks Games about trying to forget your first time playing a game, sort of line with this discussion, would recommend if anyone hasn't seen it.
There is a manga (and accompanying anime adaptation) called "Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou", or "Quiet Country Cafe" as it's been localized in English, that illustrates the concept of mono no aware better than just about any piece of media I've ever come across. It's about an android that runs a cozy cafe in a post-post-apocalyptic Japan; no explanation is given as to the nature of the apocalypse, but it's clear that humanity is on its way out the door. Despite this, moments of bittersweet beauty punctuate the android's exsistence, and she faces the world before her with a sense of serenity and wonder. If you ever want to *feel* mono no aware, read that manga. I believe it's been re-released recently.
There's an implicit relativism in this discussion that assumes that tastes in music, art, literature, games, etc., are purely subjective. One is assumed to prefer certain things merely because they grew up exposed to them. While this may be true for some, probably most people, I believe there are such things as objective standards with which one can judge works of art, etc. You can't reduce aesthetic judgement to an (judgemental) issue of being stuck up and unable to let go of old things.
I used to really get caught up in both and even confuse the two. I pretty much think the subjectivity of art is more important that than objective standards therefore important to explore these ideas.
I wouldn't say that. At least, that was not an implication I(or Mike, I think) was looking to make. I also think you're balling a few things together here that probably don't belong side by side. For example, I expressly don't believe nor assume that people like the things they like simply because they grew up exposed to them. I reject this in the portion dealing with "nostalgia." However, I also don't believe art is objective in any way(even though that had no direct bearing on what we were talking about). You are right that there are features of art about which one can talk objectively, because there are parts of art that can be measured and compared. But, that does not extend to the values people put on said features. For example, we may objectively describe a story as a three-act story or a four-act story, but the idea that one is objectively "better" than the other is a contradiction in terms, insofar it's not clear what good and bad would even refer to here except individual, and therefore subjective utility. If you believe values can be objective, then you're either religious or some sort of positivist realist/Hegelian idealist etc, but I'd argue that non of those positions enjoy much privilige in modern philosophy because of the messy way in which they use language. Nor should there be an expectation on either of us to spend time grappling with those perspectives within the confines of the discussion we had, seeing as even if we were to do so, it would just be rehashing the basics of a discussion in academia that remains contentious to this day. Anyways, while you could say a doodle by a five year old is less technically impressive than a painting by Michelangelo, can you say it's "objective" better art? That to me, is a question without an answer of interest insofar that from the artists' and audience's perspective, it really doesn't matter one way or the other. If the artist and his or her intended audience are satisfied, then the fact that some other contingent is not, or don't think it's "good art" is irrelevant and banal. I've zero interest in trying to "measure" art that way.
@@hian "At least, that was not an implication I(or Mike, I think) was looking to make." If that's the case, I apologize for misinterpreting you. I should have listened more carefully. I do listen while doing other things and some lines can be picked up out of context. About the aesthetic/values discussion, it can indeed go far and this is not the place, so I'll just agree to disagree there.
@@sjorsvanhens It's nothing to apologize for. Miscommunication is a two-way street, and I'm sure I could have been even more careful with my wording. As long as my position is understood, it's all good.
Fun fact: some cultures see the past in front of us. There is even one Australian community putting the past and future at absolute cardinal directions! So use metaphors from your cultural background to understand the world... but change the metaphor if it is too small for you! (This dismantles the "built-in propensity" at surface level: because the metaphor is not universal, how can other people come to the same conclusion by thinking about the matter with other metaphors? But I think the good-intentioned meaning of "attitude" behind is still valid :), people could come to the same positive intentions no matter the symbols used.)
I find hard to associate "discard your memories" to "Mono No Aware". To my understanding it is more about the "let the past be in the past" and "live in the present in your fullest". "Everything as its end and that is why you need to give value to the present, not the past or the future"
Comparison is the thief of joy honestly. I never really struggled with new things. Maybe its cause I’m good at compartmentalizing. I also have a collection urge which means I embrace new and novel things as the old stuff I own becomes immortalized in said collection. I start to view the entirety of my collection as a timeline of sorts that I value in various unique ways. And this makes me appreciative of what is there rather than what is not there. Honestly my only weak spot is people. People are irreplaceable. But with everything else I always had this instinctual understanding that every thing has a phase and I am just moving through these phases. And when they are done they make room for something else. Games honestly I just find the easiest. The old games are literally here preserved in perfect accurate code. The new thing or the remake can be its own thing. I will still have the original no matter what. Meanwhile I observed so many people in the gaming community really struggle with this. To the point that I now think its the number one obstacle we face as a community that enjoys games at large.
@ Certainly true also, I think its about striking a healthy balance in the end as it seems to be with everything in life. Always compare and you will never see whats right infront of you while you only notice what is not there. Never compare and you will be content with everything. Being mindful when to use and not use comparison ought to be the key then to a more fulfilling life experience. Anyway hope I didn’t misunderstood the comment. This was a very interesting topic to breach on the channel.
"Ive gone a long time without thinking it would suck if I died..." Too true, and then you have kids and you dread death and leaving them alone CONSTANTLY For context, I was 36 when I first had a child 3 years ago.
Does this mean it's time for a critical re-examination of Final Fantasy 7 Remake? Because I feel like a lot of what was said here is what the message of that game is. But I understand if there's still some hesitancy about that 😂 I think the great thing about the human mind is that it can look to the past and be in the present and look to the future all at the same time. There is sometimes a difficulty in striking a balance between them as was stated, but I think people are more capable of it than they realize. If you're talking about sakura, then that's one thing, but if you're talking about cultural artifacts like art and music and video games, those things are still around. You still have those things. The exact experience you had as a kid with them isn't going to come back, but that isn't because the thing changed. It's because you did. The thing is still here as it always was. New things coming out can't take those things you already have away from you. You can have your thing from the past, and enjoy your new things, and look forward to things that haven't come out yet. As someone who is around the same age as Mike (but slightly older), I definitely feel like a lot of things that are being made now aren't for me. But there are still so many things that are for me that I don't even have to think about all the things that aren't. I've loved certain video game series for decades and am excited about the new directions they're going in. The only ones I don't get excited about are the ones that continue to retread old ground without innovating. Because I already had that old thing. I don't need it again. Iterate on it, and make it better, or even just as good but go in a different direction. When Mike talks about the "spirit of Final Fantasy," I feel like that's what it always has been. It has always been about doing new things and charting new ground. Sure, it hasn't always been successful at that... but it was always a guiding principle. And I think that's why it's always exciting to see what project they will come out with next, because it's always going to be a surprise.
FF7 remake's problems go beyond nostalgia and "clinging to the past", there are crucial writing and world building problems that cannot be ignored in the name of a philosophical idea. One thing is the idea they wanted to convey a whole differerent is the exectution of that idea, which IMO is the main problem.
I'd actually say FF7R's entire existence (and all remakes) is antithetic to the idea of Mono No Aware. Instead of looking for new experiences with new characters, new setting and an entirely new story, FF7R's entire point is to relive and build on the success of something that brought good memories from the past. If FF7R's message is to focus on new experiences (I haven't played it), that's a message that would best be served from a completley unique settings and cast of characters. For example, the person who made that tweet seems to prefer the idea of an Ogre Battle remake rather than Unicorn Overlord.
@EdreesesPieces I would suggest either playing the game or looking up how the story of FF7R differs before making that judgement. It isn't a straight up retread of FF7's story. There are some significant changes that relate to the principle being discussed, especially at the ending.
I like this theory sort of an unclouded eyes approach. However this is also pure subjectivism. if it’s taken to its logical conclusion, Why do games even have to be good? It’s ‘body positivity’ for game companies.
I finished watching this video, which killed me a little because I'm definitely someone who keeps looking back at what once was... And while I try hard to live in the present moment... It's so hard when some of the best days in my life are behind me. Your video finished and I'm like ok, let's live in the present! Then the auto play kicks in and the next video is literally 'Playstation 1 OSTs' and FF7s Aerith song starts playing... 😅 from the OG FF7 PS1 game...😅 I'm doomed to spend the rest of my life looking for that Nostalgic feeling.
Remakes are a weird no man's land in this discussion. They're clearly trying to bank on nostalgia. There's no way that isn't a factor, you can't divorce yourself from the past product. This applies more to something like "Breath of the Wild is nothing like past Zelda games. Are you going to be mad about it or accept it for what it is?"
@@blossom357 you can choose to draw the line in the sand at remakes but I personally think this philosophy of letting go applies just as well to remakes too. Doesn’t mean I have to like the remake/reimagining, but it allows me to separate expectations while still enjoying a bit of the nostalgic callbacks. When I started letting go I began having healthier and productive discussions of criticism without getting emotionally tied up.
I find that tweet from the fan also a little weird even in English but I think that it just comes to the construction on the fan's intent. What I would say they want to say is "Hey I know you are making other games but I would really love to see the Ogre Battle series remade for modern consoles. Any news when we may see that? BTW picked up unicorn overlords and it's really awesome.". I think that's the intent we grasp from it but communication is hard. Kinda just need to roll with these things and also I would love to see these games come to modern consoles/pc. Heck I'd take unicorn overlords on pc. Looks really sweet but will have to wait till agreements expire.
I feel like the Shin Megami Tensei games (SMTIII or Digital Devil Saga specifically) would be up your guys’ alley. I remember you played the opening hours of SMTIV, I don’t know how much of an impression it made, but it’s a great series that in my opinion bases itself on philosophy and religion.
To some extent I think the philosophy makes a lot of sense, I was first made aware (heh) of mono no aware many years ago but I think it's really only necessary for memories that cause you problems or keep you from moving on, which not all memories do IMO. Obsessing over any memory is bad but simply cherishing some is completely possible (for some people). -Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it. ~ Michel de Montaigne
I wonder what where I stand is called. If we’re talking just games, I want old ones preserved exactly how they were (with a couple of quality of life things here or there), mainly because I want the work that was done to be remembered. Take Panzer Dragoon Saga for example. I’ve never played it. A remake is most likely the way I’ll be able to one day, outside of emulation, and it won’t be the same experience since that original work was conceived at a specific time by specific people for specific hardware. That kind of thing brings an intangible quality that you only realise is missing when they are remade. Plus, considering two people died during its making, I think it’s only right their memory is honoured. However, tho I want Panzer Dragoon Saga and the series on the whole preserved and available to any interested, I don’t want the series relaunched and continued on forever. I want new things. New experiences made by new talented people. It’s why I don’t understand the FF7 Remake fans dismissal of original FF7 misgivings over these remakes as “stop living in the past” when we really don’t want to. We just don’t want the past leached off and contribute to stagnation. Don’t mean this as a dig at FF7 Remake fans cause in the end, who cares? But I feel culture in general seems to be in the stranglehold of nostalgia. We should remember the past but use it as inspiration for the future.
i agree with Matsuno, game devs are allowed to want to move on too, they want to try new things or different things, sometimes people forget the devs perspective, it's usually a team behind these games and decisions are made by different people, it's not always gonna be the same in the next game.
That is true. However, I can read the Tao Te Ching a book written in the 4th century, or the Meditations written in the 2nd century but it can be difficult to play a game from 30 years ago. Why should I be shut out of a good game or story because the creators want to move on, not do the port, or contract out the port? If they want to move on fine, but open the game so it can continue being enjoyed by those who have played them, and those who have not. The original DooM and its engine are still played/used today because Carmack released it to the public.
In philosophy of the mind, qualia refers to the subjective experience generally. The experience of being you, right now, is your qualia. But yes, you could say it's pertinent to ineffible matters of emotion because, fundamentally, we cannot connect our minds and share our experiences, and so there's an inherent level of uncertainty around whether the words we use to describe things like "anger" etc really describe the exact same thing. After all, I cannot know exactly how anger feels like to you. I just assume it's similar.
Great episode! I'm 38 and similarly experience what Mike described in regards to lack of excitement for new things. Not sure if I can concisely explain myself... but my (and it sounds like Mike's a bit as well) apathy towards the "new" doesn't have much to do with a Boomer reactionary, conservative tendency toward the way things were when I was kid. Rather, new things are just less exciting because I've seen/consumed/studied so much that it's difficult to be surprised and delighted by things when I know exactly what they're derivative of. And the corporate gobbling of intellectual properties and creative work has killed so much of "the new". (Its almost like there are some common themes in the new episode format you all have started in the past few months...) Interestingly enough, most of pop culture geared toward young people lives in that regressive, (small c) conservative cycle. I refer to it as the "Disney-fication of everything". Corporations are scared that taking a bet on something new won't be a guaranteed return on investment, so they say "Here's another Marvel. Here's another Star War. Here's another LOTR. Here's another..." over and over and over again. I think the early days of game development were magic in the same way movies were: It takes a lot of strong teamwork and leadership to make something with such a big and costly production, exciting and engaging to an audience. It's indeed magic when they pull it off. There were less rules handed down from corporate suits because corporations hadn't fully caught on to the profit machine of these models and stamped out all the creative risk taking yet. Anyway, Metaphor: ReFantazio and Balatro rule. lol.
I'd like to play something new, but these days it's very rare for me to find interesting new games when the industry is full of generic games. Indie games also are just playing off nostalgia or quirky mechanics, but i no longer see games with great ambition or vision. Last game that excited me was Dragon's Dogma 2. As flawed as it might've been, that was a breath of fresh air. But games with grand plot like Xenogears, FF7, FFT, etc I can no longer find them. I don't think people are playing old games just for nostalgia, but also because there's nothing interesting to look forward to.
Things have been better than ever for that. Elden Ring, Sekiro, Library of Ruina, Unicorn Overlord, Xenoblade, BG3... Many corpses of bad corpo games are littered around, but actual good and novel ideas have burst out to shine. Things aren't nearly as bad as they were 7 years ago
@@benedict6962 I agree with this comment whole hearty. The idea that we don't get well written games is so ludicrous to me. Especially when we've gotten Xenoblade Chronicles Trilogy, Disco Elysium, BG3, Elden Ring and Cyberpunk 2077 Phantom Liberty. I personally have learn let go of the things I use to enjoy and have embraced the idea my taste have changed. I still enjoy games from my past (Ninja Gaiden Black) but I'm not stuck on it. While this year wasn't my favorite year for games (still good just didn't hit me as hard). 2023 was one of my favorite gaming years in the last 4 years.
Oh, if I should let go of that game, maybe the company should also do the same, and make it free once its off the market after a year. Just learn to let go developers, give me a break, why should I need to simulate an amnesia and forget a game that was and maybe still stay the best game ever that no game company wants to surpass ? other than shove me a lackluster game. I'm talking about Jagged Alliance 2 here, every time I played it, I let go of my past experience because this game gives a new one every playthrough and no other Turn Based Tactical and Strategy game seems to want to be that granular and deep. It's still amazing how a game I used to play for fun had this much depth that we don't get as a standard in this industry, all we get is still the same rock paper scissors system.
I hope it's clear listening that neither of us is saying that. Rather, the general idea is that it's probably not healthy to "live in the past" to the extent that you close yourself off from new experiences, or get completely hung up on how newer works differ from the things you used to enjoy. =)
Yeah that's just kinda the state of the industry. There's a lot of games that play it safe or try to capitalize on nostalgia since it's harder to take a risk and make something truly unique.
@NerevarineKing that's why I don't play most modern games, so many good games. They had the aim for being original and long lasting now majority is a reference fest
Unicorn Overlord evokes many games: Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem, Shining Force. Doesn't mean the devs are taking on a grander task than simply making a good game. Unicorn Overlord takes many mechanics from Ogre Battle and improves on them. In Ogre Battle, many mechanics went unexplained, such as alignment, weather affecting magic, protag's birthday affecting magic, initial army composition being determined by a personality questionnaire. I love Ogre Battle, but I'm very glad Unicorn Overlord actually EXPLAINS mechanics, thus allowing the player to meaningfully strategize. Franchises don't need to be eternal.
I think the most frustrating aspect of the “spirit of Final Fantasy” is that the changes that they brought to the series were based on unfounded ideas. You can let go of things that are inevitably going to go away, like death, or the petal of the tree. However, the problem with Final Fantasy is that it didn’t NEED to be that way.
Letting go and being frustrated about it are not mutually exclusive. I didn’t mean that you can’t let it go if it’s not inevitable. Just that it’s also frustrating, and that’s fine. I don’t have to agree about the new direction, especially if I’ve given the new direction a try, and I have other things in my life now, like a family. If the topic comes up, I will still express my frustration, because I still disagree about the decision, but I have let it go in the sense that I am no longer waiting for the next one to be true to the series. The new games are just not for me (I never liked hack and slash games even back then, so it stung when Square Enix decided that was the ‘evolution’ of FF).
@@Armoterra I agree - I actually feel the same way, and when it comes to FF specifically, my own personal approach isn't to let it go, but to loosen my grip; my expectations are lighter for the series in the future, but I'll always be hopeful for the next mainline game. I also air my frustrations too: don't get me started on FF's storytelling quality these days lol. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you needed to let go or not discuss your frustrations. I just meant to point out that I think the discussion in this video is more about working out how to react AFTER you feel left behind / disappointed / grown out of something, etc.
@ I think we’re more or less on the same page. The storytelling, the gameplay, even the visual aesthetic… even the music. I know people like Hamauzu’s work, but the mindset that led him to think it was appropriate for him to compose the iconic victory theme out of XIII is what I think is wrong with the direction of the series. It’s not that it grew into something that I don’t like, it’s that it was killed and replaced. Instead of being the flag bearer of the genre that everyone copied, the series became a generic concept (Square Enix’s AAA story-based game, nothing more) that copies everyone else.
It's all basically from the idea of coping with loss in the unique Japanese aesthetic way. So accepting loss means valuing life even though it's fleeting. It's expressed in a lot of tropes but, again, I will have to make a video about it but there's a lot of concrete tropes and examples I can give of it. Obviously sendings in FFX is from the Buddhist funeral ceremony and it's the same thing. Accepting death and the spirits moving on but celebrating the life that was lived in the idea.
*is the idea. Sakaguchi has a quote that sums it up decently and it's basically the same as a line in Death Stranding too: "if you don't fear death, how can you value life?"
Are we really going to say that when trail of blood plays in final fantasy 7 it’s just different to trail of plasma in final fantasy 7 remake? The fantastic subversion of the game mechanics when you are trying to acquire yuffie in og ff7 vs the text chat outside the inn in costa del sol we get in the rebirth? The laugh people get in the original when they try and save before fighting her again and she’s nowhere to be found when you come out of the menu is the kind of thing only Yoko Taro does now. Furthermore, do we now have to critique without criticism? There are a lot of games now getting 9s and 10s because people are terrified of fans that will, once a few weeks is up never play the game they attack a reviewer about again and kinda know it’s trash. If this is actually something achievable in practice I look forward to Mike doing a playthrough of final fantasy vii rebirth on the channel, I suspect it would make a great ‘hide the pain Harold meme’ 😂
If we consider something as timeless, to dumpster it without a second thought is stupid and backwards. Considering how often people use "it is in the past, just get over it!" to defend against past crimes, I find the philosophy here deeply flawed.
This post will be me judging some fans⚠️ Sometimes i see ff7 fans on social media and i wonder if they play other games because their brainrot is real dude. I kinda feel bad for them if they think Rebirth is this greastest game of all time that some of them say. It tells me they have not been playing many games if they are amused by that open world. I think it's the nostalgia to see their ps1 game getting big now. And they be voting for Rebirth in every category in TGA just because it's ff7, the critical thinking has left the chat. It's like they cannot accept any criticism against ff7, i guess it's also because of the praises Metaphor is getting. But in general I will never understand these people who only hyperfixate in one thing in social media, they be replaying the same game over and over and i don't think this is healthy, have they tried new things?? Kinda feels bad.
And this is most old fans btw that won't let go, because i found new fans are more critical when playing FF7 remake games. I found 2 streamers recently that played Rebirth and then started playing Xenoblade series, and they think Xenoblade 1 is better, even the side quests did not make them burn out as fast as Rebirth did. Some people also felt disappointed with the remake after playing OG even tho they are new fans too. So yeah, new fans are definitely are not blinded by nostalgia and can be more critical than old school fans.
I don't know about that. Almost everyone I know who've been critical about the FFVIIR trilogy are fans who grew up with the game(me and Mike included) and we're routinely accused by fans of the project of being "blinded by nostalgia" and "too attached to be past." One issue I have with the appeal to nostalgia is that it's basically an unfalsifiable proposition. If you like a modern iteration on something from the past, it's nostalgia. If you don't like a modern interation on something from the past, it's also nostalgia. At the end of the day, it's just a very boring and presumptuous claim that isn't worth levying or engaging with. It's better to just focus on the arguments. Personally, my own dislike of the remake trilogy is just grounded in my general dislike of a lot of modern AAA games - namely that they all feel very aligned aesthetically with modern AAA cinema, things like Marvel movies etc, and are tuned around gameplay loops I find very fatiguing to engage with. I do like lots of new games though. They just don't tend to be the "over the shoulder, 3rd person, cinematic adventure" type of titles that do so well these days.
@@hian the 2 streamers i mentioned finished the game but trust me, i noticed a lot of people stopped streaming Rebirth either in the beginning or during the middle of it and it's usually new fans and by new fans i mean people who started with Remake. The actual real ff7 fans obviously finished the game, the hardcore or school fan, who grew up with it. But i watch Twitch a lot and i have noticed some streamers who just stopped playing Rebirth and started playing other games and these people are basically new fans who liked Remake. 🤷♀️ i guess the gameplay loop was the problem.
I hate "what the fans demand" for any particular property, Nicholas Meyer who directed the two best Star Trek films didn't give a damn what the fans wanted. He liked the Khan character and the Hornblower novels, this is what he liked and the novels for their similarities to Trek and incorporated the nautical feel. Make your thing in a bubble and present it to the world. Please. And let the thumbs heads in the thumbnails scream in pain.
Being a former moderator, for the biggest JRPG FB group for 5 years, and a JRPG fan since I played FF Mysitic quest in the 1990’s. No gamer demographic suffers more from nostalgia, than a JRPG fan. To most, gaming peaked in either 1994 with Chrono trigger, or FFVII in 1997, or any square soft title from that Era. They will overhype any 2DHD or sprite game, and then play it and be disappointed. Games like octopath, overlord, sea of stars, chained echoes, triangle strategy they are all nostalgia bait games, and marketed as such. They look the part, but outside of the sprite graphics, they fall apart rather quickly. With generic storylines and close to none existent character development. Meanwhile the west and Japanese developers who have adapted to the times, are just releasing banger after banger, that sell 20-30 million copies a year 🤷🏻♂️
I agree, i used to be such a avid jrpg fan, it used to be my top genre and what i wanted to be known as in the gaming space like "i am a jrpg fan 😎" , but now my approach to media consumption changed after so many disappointments and my expectations never being met, it was getting tiresome and i was never gonna enjoy anything at all if the only thing i wanted was to have my expectations met which was never gonna happen. Nowadays i don't have much expectations and now i'm more easy to be pleased, so it's easier for me to enjoy things now.
@ I think that’s a healthy way of aproachint It. For example, when I first played Radiant Historia, I had 0 expectation of the game. To me it was a little ds game that I was gonna play for a bit until something great released. Boy that game IS great.
@@Norel_Nieves one game that i went knowing almost nothing about and ended up being a great game was Vagrant Story. I want a remake/remaster. But so many of my favorite games are not even jrpgs nowadays, my comfort series now is Ace Attorney, i love Ghost Trick, simulators are pretty addictive for me, i now gravitate so much more with puzzle games like Zero Escape, visual novels, indies, i think these genres have much more impactful games than jrpgs nowadays.
@@violetsky22 vagrant story is a top tier game, very cinematic, and the atmosphere and setting is very dark, kinda what dark souls would eventually be.
That tweet in the first minute is honestly just rude as hell to Vanillaware. "Eh, it's okay. I'll settle for this." Not to mention, this person surely has access to Ogre Battle at this moment, whether legally or otherwise. They're a fan enough of the game to want it re-released, after all. Why not just.... play it again? Why beg for every game to be remastered when a new console cycle rolls around? Did you lose or sell all your old games? I want sequels and new IPs, not a constant fixation on putting a spotlight on the classics.
hard disagree, i think it's disrespectful to gamers to make older games unavailable to people who want to buy them, i feel if a company is sitting on a game and have no intention of rereleasing or making any kind of profit and no intention of making it available should make it playable on the internet archive or something, let people who do still care take care of it. you don't seem to see how expensive and difficult retro games are to buy and maintain, these things are old and only getting harder and harder to get in a nice working condition for a reasonable price. if the companies wanna keep it hidden away in the dragon hoard, then I'll get it my own way. like i really don't understand why it's so hard to understand that i want to give these companies money for old games yet all we get are unfaithful ai ridden "remasters" and remakes having the awesome side effect of coming with delistings when the older games actually *are* available on modern hardware. seriously like make this make sense
@@blossom357 Nothing said in this podcast was contrarian or nihilistic though. The perspective of Mono no Aware is commonplace and pervasive in Japanese history and the arts, so it can hardly be said to be something "only I think" either =)
@@hian I made it almost to a hour mark before rage quitting. From what I've heard, he's (the guest) shaming people for liking and holing on to things they love. This thinking means people like myself who's naturally conservative... no I'm not taking politically, but people who don't like change because change in itself doesn't equal good. The logic of this thinking means people like myself are somehow defective humans. So yeah, I *have a problem* with this thinking.
@AntonioCunningham Nowhere in this video was anything like this said or implied in any way. I think you are totally misunderstanding the concept if this is what you took away from this.
@@AntonioCunningham I too, would be very interested in hearing why you got that impression. I think, on two different occasions, I distinctly said the exact opposite - that I neither fault nor blame, nor think less of people for being attached to the past. Rather, we were discussing an ideal of being able to let go of things before they become an unhealthy point of focus that distract from your ability to enjoy the present and the future. Nothing of this has anything to do with conservatism or political values either unless you want to make it about that. Nothing I said was an endorsement of the future as being "better than the past" in some moral sense. I make this clear in the essay too. It is only a pragmatic sentiment about how to orient yourself in a world that changes whether you want to or not, and doing so in a healthy manner. Most importantly, it was an account of a sentiment that is commonplace in Japanese media and art. If this discussion makes you angry, I would be curious to think how you feel about Japanese art and media in general, when it so routinely expresses this idea.
I think this concept doesn't have a place in the current videogame industry unfortunately, you need to keep bringing old games back for people who didn't played them at the time.
This doesn't apply because the storytelling of Remake and Rebirth is just bad story telling, even when divorced from the memory of the original. It had no compelling themes. It's literally about the game makers' struggles to satisfy fans' expectations and thus relegating their story to events that subvert those fans' expectations due to their own inability to not crumble under the weight of that tasks. The game is also literally telling a story of not letting go and how loss is not definite or permanent due to multi-timeline shenanigans.
@@pauldavis7318 And yet ask people about the Remake trilogies themes and they'll gush about how powerful and compelling they are, people who never played the original game. A lot of stuff seems more powerful because we were young and it was unique being the first few rpgs we played. I know for certain that if I played VII or any of the other Squaresoft games as an adult for the first time, I'd think less of them.
@@pauldavis7318 I disagree for Remake entirely. The game is very strong at telling a story of people trying to be something they're not, be it Cloud being this badass mercenary dude, or even AVALANCHE trying to be these big guys, and how their humanity and their lives are crumbling underneath that. It has a whole character arc around it where Cloud treats the Sector 7 sidequests purely as jobs as a mercenary while in Sector 5 under Aerith's influence he starts to let go of that and become actually attached to the people he's helping. Meanwhile you also have the turks trying to be the pure professionals doing human horrors but clearly being conflicted about it in their hearts. The whole game is themed around this and honestly it does this theme better than original FF7 ever did, even using the whole Aerith memories plotline to have her take part in the same idea of where she's not sure if she's supposed to be "the fated heroine" or just the person she is, with the game setting up that she would try to live as a human, and well, if you played OG you know what that means but we don't yet know what that would entail. Of course Rebirth then fires all of that into the sun and replaces it with welcome to FF7 amusement park, we have memes and attractions of all your favorite characters and locations, we have meaningless boss fights against every Shinra director and all the Turks that tell no story and have no character development, we have multidimensional ten stage fights, and all of it goes nowhere, but hey it's all huge and pretty and stuffed full of CONTENT, are you not entertained? Man I hate that game so much.
Sorry, I couldn't make it to the hour mark. To maintain my peace and keep myself from yelling at the phone in disagreement, I'm tapping out here. I want *nothing* to do with this way of thinking.
@@JustSkram Jesus dude, calm your jets. Anyone is free to express their opinions. There's no need for smartass comments just because someone disagrees with the overall sentiment. Touch grass my dude.
@@JustSkram Oh no! how dare a person have an opinion on the internet. While I personally disagree with this Mono No Aware mindset, making comments helps with the engagement on the channel. I *want* the channel to keep growing even if I greatly disagree with said video. So yeah, I gonna make comments under channels I like even if no one ask me to.
@@michaelcoraybrown The part where it's wrong/bad to hold on to things. There was multiple times where this was seen as if it was a bad thing, however for people like me that's natural. It feels alien to let go of things. Especially when I have no good reason to let them go. If I was compelled to follow this idea, I wouldn't be here. What he's suggesting is that people like myself are born defective, so yeah, that bothers me greatly.
What are this guys credentials or education or anything? When these topics don't have a Japanese guest, and the guy is speaking so definitively about Japanese people, history, customs, philosophy etc it just leaves me nervous to take any of it as more than another weeaboo that is maybe making a lot of this up. I was hoping in your intro you'd list more of his sources or something, but 10 minutes in I don't know where he's coming from.
Half my life living, working and raising a family there. University degrees in Japanese area studies(major in Japanese language and culture, minor in sociology), and Philosophy(major in phil, and minor in psychology). I've been a regular contributor for the channel since the dark pixel days over ten years ago, translating Mike's correspondances and setting him up with guests like Alexander O. Smith, as well as helping him with research due to my connections and work experience in the Japanese games industry. (I also question why one would expect a personal essay to contain sources, when it contains no scientific or controversial claims, nor was written for academic publication. It was written, initially, only for acquaintances. Mike read it and asked for its inclusion, to which I obliged) Cheers.
@@hianPersonally I didn’t think you had to explain yourself since it seemed obvious, but it *is* the internet so I get where the question was coming from. But that was a great response and actually provided some insight I wouldn’t have thought to ask for.
@@hian I agree with you, especially given the context that it was only for a closed circle. But sources are not only for "credibility" or "authority". I think they can be read as "if you want to know more about this" list of interesting articles/books/literature. I feel a section like that really goes home with "sharing knowledge". (But I'm the kind of person to fact-check my fact-checks, I'd put sources on the grocery list if I could 😅.)
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/n.gif)
Here is the link to Hian's full essay on Mono No Aware: drive.google.com/file/d/1EsKkfrt8wyaZUqwWjsnJDg1jNGoWM80s/view?usp=drive_link
“A man will never step into the same river twice. For just as the man will change over time, so too has the river.”
"Building the future, and keeping the past alive are one and the same thing." - Hideo Kojima, Metal Gear Solid 2
Am I the only one who quite easily manages a regular diving into nostalgia and also enjoyment of new things without any conflicts? Why this constant trying of bringing old and new into conflict? I listen to music released this year as well as music that was released before I was born.
Same. Currently playing Metaphor Refantazio on my PlayStation and playing through Final Fantasy 9 on my switch whenever I’m out and about. Having a blast.
Good on you for finding a balance -- I think most people can and do. But there's always an contingent that decries any deviation in something they're familiar with. I have fun sometimes reading reviews of remakes where people complain about an objectively better experience because it lacks some quality the old one, if looked at objectively, never even had in the first place. Nostalgia goggles are sometimes just hard to take off.
Similarly, I don't have any difficulty looking forward to new stuff (I absolutely love Elden Ring, and I put 250 hours into Tears of the Kingdom), and I regularly look forward to playing older games that I played once or twice as a kid/teen. This is largely due to the fact that I didn't play games all the time and so there's much to return to that I didn't get to experience first hand but heard about from friends, or simply saw friends play. All the same, when a new indie game comes out, I look forward to seeing what's out there. I guess when you're spoiled for choice, it can quickly make people feel the pinch of choice paralysis OR relish the freedom of having so many options instead.
I respect the man who only wants a phone that calls. We waste time on a smart phones, and his conditionings from life tells him the smart phone isn't necessary, and he has no desire for it, so why spend the extra money?
Thank y'all so much for this great conversation! I needed to hear and implement this into my life this year. This is why I love this channel :)
1:01:07 Also, this exact same phenomenon of 'flatlining emotions' happened to me with my personality too, I'm glad I'm not alone with this. I've been pushing (and succeeding) to remedy it this year!
"Beauty of the landscape we call life" was really well put. Made me tear up a bit because impermanence softly hit me again, lately. My grandpa peacefully passed away. So thanks for this!
As someone who doesn't have a lot of time anymore to watch a lot of TH-cam videos I just wanna say that Resonant Arc is an incredible channel that I find quite refreshing on the internet. Interesting discussions and topics that I rarely see tackled in the video game industry. Much love and respect.
Phenomenal episode. Was really looking forward to this one!
Top tier guest, and a topic that everyone could really learn a lot from, especially nowadays when this culture of obsession with the past is so prominent.
While many are focusing on the media aspect of this, I think the most powerful application of this is in one's personal life and their emotional journey when dealing with fleeting sources of happiness. Those who struggle to move on suffer the most for longer, and end up missing the open doors into more opportunities for happiness, growth, and discovery.
One of my favorite State of the Arc episodes, thanks for it, Mike.
There are a lot of times where I just don't feel like playing anything new and want to play something familiar and comforting.
Agreed. I think that's true for most people. If there was a critique anywhere in what we were talking about, it's only to the extent that the rear-view mirror of comfort becomes an object of pathology, which it does to some. There's nothing wrong with reminiscing or revisiting the past on occasion.
Personally, I tend to do so hoping to find something new in the old though, something I didn't notice the first time around =)
Wow. I feel like im hearing exactly what ive never been able to articulate through both of your perspectives on emotionlesness or it being a performative thing. Thank you both!
1:06:23 The saying "Comparison is the thief of joy" came to mind
“Hold on tightly, let go lightly” -Jack Manfred (Croupier)
I always thought of it as a conveyor belt!! And death is at the end! (Like the geno dome in Chrono Trigger… and you hear that scream)… also, this would have been a great prelude to the inevitable Xenoblade 3 podcast lol
This made me think about how many of the games made by Suda51 incorporate themes of characters having to come to terms to something in their past and having to move on, so much so that many of titles he worked or are known as the "Kill the past" collective. I wonder if we'll see a Podcast on this channel on some of these games like No More Heroes or Killer 7.
I used to genuinely worry about dying before things I was looking forward to were finished as well (I think the last one was Better Call Saul lol). I don't experience it anymore, but I see it as a blessing. Like you mentioned Mike, you found you favourite game in the last few years; we may not experience the giddy highs of hype, but even without it, life still has joyous experiences and surprises in store. I also find reflecting and being grateful that I've even reached a point where I feel somewhat 'quenched' by media experiences to help a lot.
I'd also like to add, among the many great suggestions you both made, another way to find enjoyment in the old is to seek it in the new (this was somewhat touched on by Hian). Taking FF as an example, many things that are loved about it can be found in other things - it's crazy, heightened story-telling can be found in things like Nier and 13 Sentinels. It's long, satisfying, turn-based adventure of a rag-tag group of friends can be found in Persona and Yakuza. There's probably even better examples, but hopefully that portrays the jist.
Good god. This show keeps on getting better and better
This was a great video. As someone who often play old games to recapture good feelings of the past, it's true that I can never truly relive these moments. My old house, my old cat, my daily life at school, they are gone. The moment am living now will be gone too, and I should appreciate it while I am still alive to experience it. Thank you, I needed that.
I've been working on a lot of personal stuff lately, and I can't stress how important these last few episodes have been. I don't know if you guys were the catalyst to some of those reflections or if it's a case of synchronicity or whatever, but the notion of impermanence and the discussion about persona in the Alan Wake episodes have been so useful in my process. Thank you guys for the good work!
I find FFX to be an intensely strange and interesting examination of Mono No Aware. I can't tell if it's constantly talking down on those who stick to the status quo, or on those who try to change it, since so many of the diabolos ex machina are laser-guided at specifically the hope that things will change for the better. Whether it's FFX-2 or all the side stories extending from it, everyone who digs under the shallow layer of polite greetings is depressed as hell, and end the story 1 or 2 levels below "I am fine".
This is such interesting discourse.
Around the 12 minute mark where you two are discussing how to explain an emotion, and that you can only fully learn to swim by going into the water, that resonates with me. First, it reminds me of the paper What It's Like to Be A Bat by T. Nagel, where he postulates that, while we can imagine how it experiencing the world by sonar might work, we will never know how it feels because we simply sdon't have the sense of sonar. Furthermore, that same topic reminds me of things I am diving into myself, where senses of security are FELT experiences. You HAVE to feel that security for it to work.
Around the 26 minute mark you mention the transition from being a child under the care and sphere of influence of your parents, through adolescence where you have all these new experiences, into adulthood where priorities take over and the new experiences dwindle due to constraints. That is super interesting. Yes, at some point people might 'hold on' to the past because THAT is what they know. At some point I technically might get 'hang up' on the past experiences that shaped ME but the contemporary experiences that might pass me by will now shape the adults of the future.It's something I won't chase but others should.
Around the 36 minute mark, Mike mentions that he used to firmly hold onto what the Spirit of Final Fantasy was but that he needed to move past it. But that revisiting old work is still enjoyable to him. Reminiscence is indeed important, but the balnance needs to be there, or maybe the acceptance should be there that you cannot exactly recapture the experience of the past, as Mike mentions. That's how I feel it. It reminds me of the Dark Souls-games. I can replay those games, but it will never be as impactful as the mystical First Playthrough where verything is new. It's so unique, and I can never re-experience that. Is being terrified of The Cliff the same as not accepting the impermeance of life?
While I think it's perfectly fine not to enjoy modern experiences at a later age (new music, new tv, new movies), it would be a shame if that happened due to not being able to move on from the experiences that shaped me. If I try it yet don't understand it and it's 'just not for me,' that's fine.
Hian mentions not getting hyped in his youth and that he, though his ex-wife, decided to to experience things more. That harkens back to what you two discussed in the beginning: the felt experience of something. And you two also discuss forcing it, or doing it without (or, really, before) fully experiencing a pleasurable experience, and that behaviour resuscitates your experience. That is so cool. I am trying to find my joy in life again. It's difficult but different therapists have told me that, in the end, I need to do it, go for it.
"The present moment is impermanent. Now, now, now and now" is such a strong and ad rem statement by Hian. Simultaneously, the present moment IS permanent because it also IS here now, now, now and now.
Wonderful podcast. Thanks, Mike and Hian!
Yeah, I really connected with Hian's bit about experiencing new things, and opening himself up to more emotional experiences. I'm at a point in my life where, though I am slowly opening up, I'm still very emotionally reserved. While I don't wanna lose that, it would be nice to feel more strongly about certain things. I just wish I knew what to do with bad experiences.
In my late 40s, I'm fighting the good fight myself. Teaching helps because my students are great advocates for what they enjoy.
@@socialistprofessor3206
I super relate to this. When I first came to Japan, like many foreigners, I would occasionally teach English, and being around young people is extremely healthy, imo. It really help prevent you from becoming "old" in your ways.
@@socialistprofessor3206 Those connections are our best ammunition for the fight. Keep it up, man. I'm sure your students appreciate it.
Kieren & SocProf, I totally dig your replies. I completely understand what you are saying, Kieren. Being reserved, closed-off in my own way is something I have been struggling with these past few years, and I find it comforting in a sense to realise that I am not alone in this. I never realised I was this way and even though I knew something bothered me, I never really knew what was bothering me, what was dampening my enjoyment. Now that I know, it's still not easy but at least I know what to work on. What kind of 'bad experiences' are you refering to, if you don't mind me asking
SocProf, glad to hear you are self-improving. I think it's important, no matter your age. I see it with someone close to me. They show very difficult behaviour, they get offers of help by proessionals, and they reject it because they think they're 'too old to change.' That choice hurts me in a way since I will be among the recipients of that unhealthy mindset and the resulting harmful behaviour.
Yeah so overall a great episode, my favorite probably yet because it's actually tackling a Japanese theme on its own terms. Shout out to Hian who I have talked to before and who has been a great resource on Japanese culture.
Amazing episode! Amazing guest! thank you for doing this I love your insights and thoughts about everything
1:04:00 Another reason some people may not want to look forward to new things is due to disappointment fatigue. Partly because new things will always be different from the old, if only slightly, but mainly because people can easily fall into building unreasonable expectations by seeking the fleeting past in the new, that something could ever recapture that same lightning into the same bottle. The times change, things change and we as people aren't the same person we were in the past, the cells in our body are literally different. For me I feel that there's a responsibility, at least to myself, to set up reasonable expectations for new things. Instead of preemptively painting what I want or think something should be, instead when the new experience arrives I leave a blank canvas open to what may come and let it draw itself. Ultimately I just want to leave the door open to new things and control what I can control.
Great episode, this conversation is helping me solidify thoughts and ideas I've been building up in the past few years.
Time to get educated with my weekly viewing of Resonant Arc.
1:01:10 Every time you share an aspect of your life I'm continually amazed at how much it mirrors my own. I used to think of myself as a class clown during my younger days in school and loved being the center of attention until slowly but surely developed a crippling fear of embarrassment and became more of an observer of life instead of an active participant.
This was a really cool discussion. I've come across the notion of mono no aware a few times but never really looked into it.
I think a nice complement to mono no aware would be Nietzsche’s essay “On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Life”. While mono no aware emphasizes the value of the impermanence of objects, this impermanence is undercut by the tendency of the subject to convert this impermanence into relative permanence via memory. Nietzsche’s essay takes the more radical step of exploring the positive dimension of forgetting on the side of the subject and developing its ahistorical mode of being.
Also, for the philosophically minded, the discussion of walking backwards towards one’s death is essentially the same idea explored in Martin Heidegger’s discussion of being-towards-death and our authentic and inauthentic relations to it.
I feel like in western game consumption and production, we refuse to let things die, as seen with all the modern remakes and remasters constantly being churned out and brought back to life against their will for a quick buck.
This was a really tremendous episode. Really informative and interesting stuff.
Thanks for that Hian essay, Ive been trying to adapt to a new job and the old life before that and those lines really placed me in the correct mind space
I really enjoyed the flow of this video. It can be very difficult to not talk over each other/cut each other off when you are not in the same room. You two were either very in tune with each other, or the editing was great (noticed some quick cuts here and there). Whatever effort was put into this made this very pleasant to listen to. Keep it up! The actual content was great as well. I was not aware of this concept and loved listening to you two talk about it.
Really cool discussion. Past games should be re-examined but never rehashed.from personal experience, revisting old games is fun. Sometimes you realize its no where as good as you remember, but sometimes you realize it's way better than you remember. Sometimes a game you used to hate you now love, and vice versa. Sometimes, it's a refined taste you acquire with age. Other times, its past games reflecting in an interesting way in comparison to contemporary culture and style. Games can appear to be way ahead of its era, in some cases making them feel timeless, but this is usually an illusion. Games are always of their time and era, but they hit the zeitgeist perfectly, making us remember them more vividly in comparison to the "decent" or "bad" games of the same era. Theres nothing wrong reminiscing about old favorite games, but its worth noting that all the "greats" that of their era are 99/100 times a FRESH experience. Very rarely do we talk about sequels when it comes to the "greats". Half life, shadow of colossus, super mario, final fantasy, gran theft auto, journey. Some of these games would go to on to have very succecfull sequels, but almost none would match their cultural influence of their very first iteration. This is why i love final fantsy, they managed to create a franchise all about keeping it fresh, and yet, all fans want is the same games, but fans dont know what is a fresh experiende is until it actually hits them in the face. So many games come out, with great reviews on metacritic, loved by their respective fanbase, yet they are forgotten within a month of their release because releasing a game simply following fan requests usually yields okay result at best. Fans should stick to being fans, and stop pretending they know better than the people making the freaking games and simply vote with their wallet. The internet was a mistake.
I'm way past the point of being nostalgic about things. My past doesn't even feel like my own at this point. I just enjoy being in the moment. I don't refer to who I was or what I liked to determine what I like. I just enjoy or criticize what's in front of me.
Great discussion, too many people linger on memories or feelings that they will never get back. Nostalgia is the killer of growth. This is definitely a hard sell to western audiences, a majority of our culture is based around such nostalgia. You can't get back what has already passed and trying to do so will only lead to a miserable existence.
This reminds me of portions of Camus' philosophy.
Camus is great. One of my favorites. ❤️
One should always strive to be ever-changing without ever changing!
Sounds like Xenoblade 3 is Mono No Aware - The Game, then. Learning about this now, and Miyabi, I can see the deeper meaning in the naming of the characters Mio and Miyabi in Xenoblade 3. I feel it's going to be the most interesting XB game for you guys to analyze!
I've known about this concept for a long time, but didn't know there was this specific term for it.
Learn to value the present by understanding that the moment will never come again and that you cannot relive it easily.
You never have as much time as you think you have, so it's normal to force yourself to possess the day with the trials and traumas that inevitably result.
Be comfortable with the feeling of being uncomfortable. Learn to enjoy loss, but do not unnecessarily seek it.
I've just heard the way that I live my life described as "caricaturistly stupid." Ah well. To each his own.🤣
Unless you live your life throwing out everything you come across because they'll disappear in the long term, giving up on human relationships before they even start etc, then I don't think I called your way of life that. That moniker was in regards to people taking Mono no Aware so seriously they refuse to hold on to anything what so ever, even for the briefest of time. I was warning against extremes.
If you do live that way, then sure, to each their own. But, if you thought I said the opposite there, you might want to clear out your ears.
@@hian Short answer: It's a joke.
36:35 I loved that analogy!
Spring and Fall
Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844-1889)
Margaret, are you grieving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?
Leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Ah! as the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie;
And yet you will weep and know why.
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sorrow's springs sre the same.
Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It is the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
fantastic talk :O I never thought about why I played old stuff being fear of death but it really makes sense :O
I would never use terms as extreme as "discard" when talking about memories before trying a new game, BUT....
I have talked to people where I can see that could apply. It's absurdly frustrating to hold a conversation where every response is "but I liked [thing] more". I mean I'm not exactly a social butterfly, but there IS a point in the conversation where you have to say something different, right? What am I supposed to discuss?
This conversation really reminds me of the Kurosawa film “Dreams” lots of beauty, loss and lingering in that one.
Oh yeah my morning podcast is here
Terranigma is one of my all-time favourite RPG of all time. I simply loved the SNES for all that games they brought us. Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana etc. I simply love them!
This is a great discussion - there's a fun video essay from Daryl Talks Games about trying to forget your first time playing a game, sort of line with this discussion, would recommend if anyone hasn't seen it.
There is a manga (and accompanying anime adaptation) called "Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou", or "Quiet Country Cafe" as it's been localized in English, that illustrates the concept of mono no aware better than just about any piece of media I've ever come across. It's about an android that runs a cozy cafe in a post-post-apocalyptic Japan; no explanation is given as to the nature of the apocalypse, but it's clear that humanity is on its way out the door. Despite this, moments of bittersweet beauty punctuate the android's exsistence, and she faces the world before her with a sense of serenity and wonder. If you ever want to *feel* mono no aware, read that manga. I believe it's been re-released recently.
This episode visibly went over the head of so many, I think that initial twitter exchange between fan and JP game dev on twitter disoriented them 😅
There's an implicit relativism in this discussion that assumes that tastes in music, art, literature, games, etc., are purely subjective. One is assumed to prefer certain things merely because they grew up exposed to them. While this may be true for some, probably most people, I believe there are such things as objective standards with which one can judge works of art, etc. You can't reduce aesthetic judgement to an (judgemental) issue of being stuck up and unable to let go of old things.
I used to really get caught up in both and even confuse the two. I pretty much think the subjectivity of art is more important that than objective standards therefore important to explore these ideas.
I wouldn't say that. At least, that was not an implication I(or Mike, I think) was looking to make. I also think you're balling a few things together here that probably don't belong side by side.
For example, I expressly don't believe nor assume that people like the things they like simply because they grew up exposed to them. I reject this in the portion dealing with "nostalgia."
However, I also don't believe art is objective in any way(even though that had no direct bearing on what we were talking about).
You are right that there are features of art about which one can talk objectively, because there are parts of art that can be measured and compared. But, that does not extend to the values people put on said features.
For example, we may objectively describe a story as a three-act story or a four-act story, but the idea that one is objectively "better" than the other is a contradiction in terms, insofar it's not clear what good and bad would even refer to here except individual, and therefore subjective utility.
If you believe values can be objective, then you're either religious or some sort of positivist realist/Hegelian idealist etc, but I'd argue that non of those positions enjoy much privilige in modern philosophy because of the messy way in which they use language. Nor should there be an expectation on either of us to spend time grappling with those perspectives within the confines of the discussion we had, seeing as even if we were to do so, it would just be rehashing the basics of a discussion in academia that remains contentious to this day.
Anyways, while you could say a doodle by a five year old is less technically impressive than a painting by Michelangelo, can you say it's "objective" better art? That to me, is a question without an answer of interest insofar that from the artists' and audience's perspective, it really doesn't matter one way or the other. If the artist and his or her intended audience are satisfied, then the fact that some other contingent is not, or don't think it's "good art" is irrelevant and banal. I've zero interest in trying to "measure" art that way.
@@hian "At least, that was not an implication I(or Mike, I think) was looking to make." If that's the case, I apologize for misinterpreting you. I should have listened more carefully. I do listen while doing other things and some lines can be picked up out of context. About the aesthetic/values discussion, it can indeed go far and this is not the place, so I'll just agree to disagree there.
@@sjorsvanhens
It's nothing to apologize for. Miscommunication is a two-way street, and I'm sure I could have been even more careful with my wording.
As long as my position is understood, it's all good.
Fun fact: some cultures see the past in front of us. There is even one Australian community putting the past and future at absolute cardinal directions!
So use metaphors from your cultural background to understand the world... but change the metaphor if it is too small for you!
(This dismantles the "built-in propensity" at surface level: because the metaphor is not universal, how can other people come to the same conclusion by thinking about the matter with other metaphors? But I think the good-intentioned meaning of "attitude" behind is still valid :), people could come to the same positive intentions no matter the symbols used.)
I think you'd like Chris Fischer's Stoicism on Fire podcast. A lot of what you guys were talking about has similar themes in traditional stoicism.
I find hard to associate "discard your memories" to "Mono No Aware". To my understanding it is more about the "let the past be in the past" and "live in the present in your fullest".
"Everything as its end and that is why you need to give value to the present, not the past or the future"
Comparison is the thief of joy honestly. I never really struggled with new things. Maybe its cause I’m good at compartmentalizing. I also have a collection urge which means I embrace new and novel things as the old stuff I own becomes immortalized in said collection. I start to view the entirety of my collection as a timeline of sorts that I value in various unique ways. And this makes me appreciative of what is there rather than what is not there.
Honestly my only weak spot is people. People are irreplaceable. But with everything else I always had this instinctual understanding that every thing has a phase and I am just moving through these phases. And when they are done they make room for something else.
Games honestly I just find the easiest. The old games are literally here preserved in perfect accurate code. The new thing or the remake can be its own thing. I will still have the original no matter what. Meanwhile I observed so many people in the gaming community really struggle with this. To the point that I now think its the number one obstacle we face as a community that enjoys games at large.
I'm partial to "comparison is the killer of contentment" myself =)
Great post.
@ Certainly true also, I think its about striking a healthy balance in the end as it seems to be with everything in life.
Always compare and you will never see whats right infront of you while you only notice what is not there. Never compare and you will be content with everything. Being mindful when to use and not use comparison ought to be the key then to a more fulfilling life experience.
Anyway hope I didn’t misunderstood the comment. This was a very interesting topic to breach on the channel.
"Ive gone a long time without thinking it would suck if I died..." Too true, and then you have kids and you dread death and leaving them alone CONSTANTLY
For context, I was 36 when I first had a child 3 years ago.
Does this mean it's time for a critical re-examination of Final Fantasy 7 Remake? Because I feel like a lot of what was said here is what the message of that game is. But I understand if there's still some hesitancy about that 😂
I think the great thing about the human mind is that it can look to the past and be in the present and look to the future all at the same time. There is sometimes a difficulty in striking a balance between them as was stated, but I think people are more capable of it than they realize. If you're talking about sakura, then that's one thing, but if you're talking about cultural artifacts like art and music and video games, those things are still around. You still have those things. The exact experience you had as a kid with them isn't going to come back, but that isn't because the thing changed. It's because you did. The thing is still here as it always was. New things coming out can't take those things you already have away from you. You can have your thing from the past, and enjoy your new things, and look forward to things that haven't come out yet.
As someone who is around the same age as Mike (but slightly older), I definitely feel like a lot of things that are being made now aren't for me. But there are still so many things that are for me that I don't even have to think about all the things that aren't. I've loved certain video game series for decades and am excited about the new directions they're going in. The only ones I don't get excited about are the ones that continue to retread old ground without innovating. Because I already had that old thing. I don't need it again. Iterate on it, and make it better, or even just as good but go in a different direction.
When Mike talks about the "spirit of Final Fantasy," I feel like that's what it always has been. It has always been about doing new things and charting new ground. Sure, it hasn't always been successful at that... but it was always a guiding principle. And I think that's why it's always exciting to see what project they will come out with next, because it's always going to be a surprise.
FF7 remake's problems go beyond nostalgia and "clinging to the past", there are crucial writing and world building problems that cannot be ignored in the name of a philosophical idea. One thing is the idea they wanted to convey a whole differerent is the exectution of that idea, which IMO is the main problem.
I'd actually say FF7R's entire existence (and all remakes) is antithetic to the idea of Mono No Aware. Instead of looking for new experiences with new characters, new setting and an entirely new story, FF7R's entire point is to relive and build on the success of something that brought good memories from the past. If FF7R's message is to focus on new experiences (I haven't played it), that's a message that would best be served from a completley unique settings and cast of characters. For example, the person who made that tweet seems to prefer the idea of an Ogre Battle remake rather than Unicorn Overlord.
@EdreesesPieces I would suggest either playing the game or looking up how the story of FF7R differs before making that judgement. It isn't a straight up retread of FF7's story. There are some significant changes that relate to the principle being discussed, especially at the ending.
I like this theory sort of an unclouded eyes approach. However this is also pure subjectivism. if it’s taken to its logical conclusion, Why do games even have to be good? It’s ‘body positivity’ for game companies.
I finished watching this video, which killed me a little because I'm definitely someone who keeps looking back at what once was... And while I try hard to live in the present moment... It's so hard when some of the best days in my life are behind me.
Your video finished and I'm like ok, let's live in the present!
Then the auto play kicks in and the next video is literally 'Playstation 1 OSTs' and FF7s Aerith song starts playing... 😅 from the OG FF7 PS1 game...😅
I'm doomed to spend the rest of my life looking for that Nostalgic feeling.
Mike, do you think you’ll reconsider playing Rebirth after taking this into account? I’d love to hear your honest take, warts and all.
Remakes are a weird no man's land in this discussion. They're clearly trying to bank on nostalgia. There's no way that isn't a factor, you can't divorce yourself from the past product. This applies more to something like "Breath of the Wild is nothing like past Zelda games. Are you going to be mad about it or accept it for what it is?"
@@blossom357 you can choose to draw the line in the sand at remakes but I personally think this philosophy of letting go applies just as well to remakes too. Doesn’t mean I have to like the remake/reimagining, but it allows me to separate expectations while still enjoying a bit of the nostalgic callbacks. When I started letting go I began having healthier and productive discussions of criticism without getting emotionally tied up.
Is the concept similar to that of German Sehnsucht?
I find that tweet from the fan also a little weird even in English but I think that it just comes to the construction on the fan's intent. What I would say they want to say is "Hey I know you are making other games but I would really love to see the Ogre Battle series remade for modern consoles. Any news when we may see that? BTW picked up unicorn overlords and it's really awesome.". I think that's the intent we grasp from it but communication is hard. Kinda just need to roll with these things and also I would love to see these games come to modern consoles/pc. Heck I'd take unicorn overlords on pc. Looks really sweet but will have to wait till agreements expire.
Be where your feet are.
I feel like the Shin Megami Tensei games (SMTIII or Digital Devil Saga specifically) would be up your guys’ alley. I remember you played the opening hours of SMTIV, I don’t know how much of an impression it made, but it’s a great series that in my opinion bases itself on philosophy and religion.
To some extent I think the philosophy makes a lot of sense, I was first made aware (heh) of mono no aware many years ago but I think it's really only necessary for memories that cause you problems or keep you from moving on, which not all memories do IMO. Obsessing over any memory is bad but simply cherishing some is completely possible (for some people).
-Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it. ~ Michel de Montaigne
I wonder what where I stand is called. If we’re talking just games, I want old ones preserved exactly how they were (with a couple of quality of life things here or there), mainly because I want the work that was done to be remembered.
Take Panzer Dragoon Saga for example. I’ve never played it. A remake is most likely the way I’ll be able to one day, outside of emulation, and it won’t be the same experience since that original work was conceived at a specific time by specific people for specific hardware.
That kind of thing brings an intangible quality that you only realise is missing when they are remade. Plus, considering two people died during its making, I think it’s only right their memory is honoured.
However, tho I want Panzer Dragoon Saga and the series on the whole preserved and available to any interested, I don’t want the series relaunched and continued on forever.
I want new things. New experiences made by new talented people. It’s why I don’t understand the FF7 Remake fans dismissal of original FF7 misgivings over these remakes as “stop living in the past” when we really don’t want to.
We just don’t want the past leached off and contribute to stagnation. Don’t mean this as a dig at FF7 Remake fans cause in the end, who cares? But I feel culture in general seems to be in the stranglehold of nostalgia.
We should remember the past but use it as inspiration for the future.
i agree with Matsuno, game devs are allowed to want to move on too, they want to try new things or different things, sometimes people forget the devs perspective, it's usually a team behind these games and decisions are made by different people, it's not always gonna be the same in the next game.
Game devs are allowed to want to move on, and consumers are allowed to not want to move on with them
@@erickghoul174The problem is, the consumer DID move On.
Everyone is allowed to do what ever they want. If people don't want to move on so be it.
@@Norel_Nieves Consumer bought modern game, said they wanted old game and the game dev got offended. Story if this podcast
That is true. However, I can read the Tao Te Ching a book written in the 4th century, or the Meditations written in the 2nd century but it can be difficult to play a game from 30 years ago. Why should I be shut out of a good game or story because the creators want to move on, not do the port, or contract out the port? If they want to move on fine, but open the game so it can continue being enjoyed by those who have played them, and those who have not. The original DooM and its engine are still played/used today because Carmack released it to the public.
Hm. I like the idea that "Mono No Aware" is, in a sense, the opposite of "Nostalgia".
Brilliant :)))
I remember exactly how it felt to look at ff7 for the first time 😅
mooooooore philosophy x
11:57 I've seen the word "qualia" be used for ineffable things like these
In philosophy of the mind, qualia refers to the subjective experience generally. The experience of being you, right now, is your qualia. But yes, you could say it's pertinent to ineffible matters of emotion because, fundamentally, we cannot connect our minds and share our experiences, and so there's an inherent level of uncertainty around whether the words we use to describe things like "anger" etc really describe the exact same thing. After all, I cannot know exactly how anger feels like to you. I just assume it's similar.
Great episode! I'm 38 and similarly experience what Mike described in regards to lack of excitement for new things. Not sure if I can concisely explain myself... but my (and it sounds like Mike's a bit as well) apathy towards the "new" doesn't have much to do with a Boomer reactionary, conservative tendency toward the way things were when I was kid. Rather, new things are just less exciting because I've seen/consumed/studied so much that it's difficult to be surprised and delighted by things when I know exactly what they're derivative of. And the corporate gobbling of intellectual properties and creative work has killed so much of "the new". (Its almost like there are some common themes in the new episode format you all have started in the past few months...)
Interestingly enough, most of pop culture geared toward young people lives in that regressive, (small c) conservative cycle. I refer to it as the "Disney-fication of everything". Corporations are scared that taking a bet on something new won't be a guaranteed return on investment, so they say "Here's another Marvel. Here's another Star War. Here's another LOTR. Here's another..." over and over and over again. I think the early days of game development were magic in the same way movies were: It takes a lot of strong teamwork and leadership to make something with such a big and costly production, exciting and engaging to an audience. It's indeed magic when they pull it off. There were less rules handed down from corporate suits because corporations hadn't fully caught on to the profit machine of these models and stamped out all the creative risk taking yet.
Anyway, Metaphor: ReFantazio and Balatro rule. lol.
Heraclitus would approve.
I feel called out
I'd like to play something new, but these days it's very rare for me to find interesting new games when the industry is full of generic games.
Indie games also are just playing off nostalgia or quirky mechanics, but i no longer see games with great ambition or vision.
Last game that excited me was Dragon's Dogma 2. As flawed as it might've been, that was a breath of fresh air.
But games with grand plot like Xenogears, FF7, FFT, etc I can no longer find them.
I don't think people are playing old games just for nostalgia, but also because there's nothing interesting to look forward to.
Things have been better than ever for that. Elden Ring, Sekiro, Library of Ruina, Unicorn Overlord, Xenoblade, BG3... Many corpses of bad corpo games are littered around, but actual good and novel ideas have burst out to shine.
Things aren't nearly as bad as they were 7 years ago
@@benedict6962 I agree with this comment whole hearty. The idea that we don't get well written games is so ludicrous to me. Especially when we've gotten Xenoblade Chronicles Trilogy, Disco Elysium, BG3, Elden Ring and Cyberpunk 2077 Phantom Liberty. I personally have learn let go of the things I use to enjoy and have embraced the idea my taste have changed. I still enjoy games from my past (Ninja Gaiden Black) but I'm not stuck on it. While this year wasn't my favorite year for games (still good just didn't hit me as hard). 2023 was one of my favorite gaming years in the last 4 years.
After watching this whole video and enjoying it, I have to ask myself: Would it be wrong of me to watch it again? 🤔
Oh, if I should let go of that game, maybe the company should also do the same, and make it free once its off the market after a year.
Just learn to let go developers, give me a break, why should I need to simulate an amnesia and forget a game that was and maybe still stay the best game ever that no game company wants to surpass ? other than shove me a lackluster game.
I'm talking about Jagged Alliance 2 here, every time I played it, I let go of my past experience because this game gives a new one every playthrough and no other Turn Based Tactical and Strategy game seems to want to be that granular and deep.
It's still amazing how a game I used to play for fun had this much depth that we don't get as a standard in this industry, all we get is still the same rock paper scissors system.
It's weird to tell someone not to recall a "past game" while looking at a game deliberately designed to evoke remembrance of that exact past game
I hope it's clear listening that neither of us is saying that. Rather, the general idea is that it's probably not healthy to "live in the past" to the extent that you close yourself off from new experiences, or get completely hung up on how newer works differ from the things you used to enjoy. =)
It's also not really what Matsuno is saying, either, which is clarified in the body of the video.
Yeah that's just kinda the state of the industry. There's a lot of games that play it safe or try to capitalize on nostalgia since it's harder to take a risk and make something truly unique.
@NerevarineKing that's why I don't play most modern games, so many good games.
They had the aim for being original and long lasting now majority is a reference fest
Unicorn Overlord evokes many games: Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem, Shining Force. Doesn't mean the devs are taking on a grander task than simply making a good game.
Unicorn Overlord takes many mechanics from Ogre Battle and improves on them. In Ogre Battle, many mechanics went unexplained, such as alignment, weather affecting magic, protag's birthday affecting magic, initial army composition being determined by a personality questionnaire.
I love Ogre Battle, but I'm very glad Unicorn Overlord actually EXPLAINS mechanics, thus allowing the player to meaningfully strategize.
Franchises don't need to be eternal.
I'm currently replaying Mass Effect 👀
Making some different choices, but the itch needed to be scratched
I think the most frustrating aspect of the “spirit of Final Fantasy” is that the changes that they brought to the series were based on unfounded ideas. You can let go of things that are inevitably going to go away, like death, or the petal of the tree. However, the problem with Final Fantasy is that it didn’t NEED to be that way.
Agree with the sentiment, but the idea here is now that it HAS gone that way, are you prepared to let it go if it's no longer what you want it to be?
Letting go and being frustrated about it are not mutually exclusive. I didn’t mean that you can’t let it go if it’s not inevitable. Just that it’s also frustrating, and that’s fine. I don’t have to agree about the new direction, especially if I’ve given the new direction a try, and I have other things in my life now, like a family. If the topic comes up, I will still express my frustration, because I still disagree about the decision, but I have let it go in the sense that I am no longer waiting for the next one to be true to the series.
The new games are just not for me (I never liked hack and slash games even back then, so it stung when Square Enix decided that was the ‘evolution’ of FF).
@@Armoterra I agree - I actually feel the same way, and when it comes to FF specifically, my own personal approach isn't to let it go, but to loosen my grip; my expectations are lighter for the series in the future, but I'll always be hopeful for the next mainline game. I also air my frustrations too: don't get me started on FF's storytelling quality these days lol.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you needed to let go or not discuss your frustrations. I just meant to point out that I think the discussion in this video is more about working out how to react AFTER you feel left behind / disappointed / grown out of something, etc.
@ I think we’re more or less on the same page. The storytelling, the gameplay, even the visual aesthetic… even the music. I know people like Hamauzu’s work, but the mindset that led him to think it was appropriate for him to compose the iconic victory theme out of XIII is what I think is wrong with the direction of the series. It’s not that it grew into something that I don’t like, it’s that it was killed and replaced. Instead of being the flag bearer of the genre that everyone copied, the series became a generic concept (Square Enix’s AAA story-based game, nothing more) that copies everyone else.
It's cycle of life and death themes. Gonna have to talk about it at length some point
It's all basically from the idea of coping with loss in the unique Japanese aesthetic way. So accepting loss means valuing life even though it's fleeting. It's expressed in a lot of tropes but, again, I will have to make a video about it but there's a lot of concrete tropes and examples I can give of it. Obviously sendings in FFX is from the Buddhist funeral ceremony and it's the same thing. Accepting death and the spirits moving on but celebrating the life that was lived in the idea.
*is the idea. Sakaguchi has a quote that sums it up decently and it's basically the same as a line in Death Stranding too: "if you don't fear death, how can you value life?"
Can anyone share the discord server link? Really enjoying this podcast -- want to join the community.
Great episode. Would love Hian to be featured as a guest more often.
Are we really going to say that when trail of blood plays in final fantasy 7 it’s just different to trail of plasma in final fantasy 7 remake? The fantastic subversion of the game mechanics when you are trying to acquire yuffie in og ff7 vs the text chat outside the inn in costa del sol we get in the rebirth? The laugh people get in the original when they try and save before fighting her again and she’s nowhere to be found when you come out of the menu is the kind of thing only Yoko Taro does now. Furthermore, do we now have to critique without criticism? There are a lot of games now getting 9s and 10s because people are terrified of fans that will, once a few weeks is up never play the game they attack a reviewer about again and kinda know it’s trash.
If this is actually something achievable in practice I look forward to Mike doing a playthrough of final fantasy vii rebirth on the channel, I suspect it would make a great ‘hide the pain Harold meme’ 😂
I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who just did not like Terranigma lol
If we consider something as timeless, to dumpster it without a second thought is stupid and backwards. Considering how often people use "it is in the past, just get over it!" to defend against past crimes, I find the philosophy here deeply flawed.
Who has advocated for this here?
This post will be me judging some fans⚠️
Sometimes i see ff7 fans on social media and i wonder if they play other games because their brainrot is real dude.
I kinda feel bad for them if they think Rebirth is this greastest game of all time that some of them say. It tells me they have not been playing many games if they are amused by that open world. I think it's the nostalgia to see their ps1 game getting big now.
And they be voting for Rebirth in every category in TGA just because it's ff7, the critical thinking has left the chat. It's like they cannot accept any criticism against ff7, i guess it's also because of the praises Metaphor is getting.
But in general I will never understand these people who only hyperfixate in one thing in social media, they be replaying the same game over and over and i don't think this is healthy, have they tried new things?? Kinda feels bad.
And this is most old fans btw that won't let go, because i found new fans are more critical when playing FF7 remake games. I found 2 streamers recently that played Rebirth and then started playing Xenoblade series, and they think Xenoblade 1 is better, even the side quests did not make them burn out as fast as Rebirth did.
Some people also felt disappointed with the remake after playing OG even tho they are new fans too. So yeah, new fans are definitely are not blinded by nostalgia and can be more critical than old school fans.
I don't know about that. Almost everyone I know who've been critical about the FFVIIR trilogy are fans who grew up with the game(me and Mike included) and we're routinely accused by fans of the project of being "blinded by nostalgia" and "too attached to be past."
One issue I have with the appeal to nostalgia is that it's basically an unfalsifiable proposition. If you like a modern iteration on something from the past, it's nostalgia. If you don't like a modern interation on something from the past, it's also nostalgia. At the end of the day, it's just a very boring and presumptuous claim that isn't worth levying or engaging with. It's better to just focus on the arguments.
Personally, my own dislike of the remake trilogy is just grounded in my general dislike of a lot of modern AAA games - namely that they all feel very aligned aesthetically with modern AAA cinema, things like Marvel movies etc, and are tuned around gameplay loops I find very fatiguing to engage with.
I do like lots of new games though. They just don't tend to be the "over the shoulder, 3rd person, cinematic adventure" type of titles that do so well these days.
@@hian the 2 streamers i mentioned finished the game but trust me, i noticed a lot of people stopped streaming Rebirth either in the beginning or during the middle of it and it's usually new fans and by new fans i mean people who started with Remake. The actual real ff7 fans obviously finished the game, the hardcore or school fan, who grew up with it. But i watch Twitch a lot and i have noticed some streamers who just stopped playing Rebirth and started playing other games and these people are basically new fans who liked Remake. 🤷♀️ i guess the gameplay loop was the problem.
@@hian but story wise i also saw new fans being critical of it, but this was mostly on X. And i'm not there anymore.
I hate "what the fans demand" for any particular property, Nicholas Meyer who directed the two best Star Trek films didn't give a damn what the fans wanted. He liked the Khan character and the Hornblower novels, this is what he liked and the novels for their similarities to Trek and incorporated the nautical feel.
Make your thing in a bubble and present it to the world. Please. And let the thumbs heads in the thumbnails scream in pain.
Being a former moderator, for the biggest JRPG FB group for 5 years, and a JRPG fan since I played FF Mysitic quest in the 1990’s.
No gamer demographic suffers more from nostalgia, than a JRPG fan.
To most, gaming peaked in either 1994 with Chrono trigger, or FFVII in 1997, or any square soft title from that Era.
They will overhype any 2DHD or sprite game, and then play it and be disappointed.
Games like octopath, overlord, sea of stars, chained echoes, triangle strategy they are all nostalgia bait games, and marketed as such.
They look the part, but outside of the sprite graphics, they fall apart rather quickly.
With generic storylines and close to none existent character development.
Meanwhile the west and Japanese developers who have adapted to the times, are just releasing banger after banger, that sell 20-30 million copies a year 🤷🏻♂️
I agree, i used to be such a avid jrpg fan, it used to be my top genre and what i wanted to be known as in the gaming space like "i am a jrpg fan 😎" , but now my approach to media consumption changed after so many disappointments and my expectations never being met, it was getting tiresome and i was never gonna enjoy anything at all if the only thing i wanted was to have my expectations met which was never gonna happen. Nowadays i don't have much expectations and now i'm more easy to be pleased, so it's easier for me to enjoy things now.
@ I think that’s a healthy way of aproachint It. For example, when I first played Radiant Historia, I had 0 expectation of the game. To me it was a little ds game that I was gonna play for a bit until something great released.
Boy that game IS great.
@@Norel_Nieves one game that i went knowing almost nothing about and ended up being a great game was Vagrant Story. I want a remake/remaster.
But so many of my favorite games are not even jrpgs nowadays, my comfort series now is Ace Attorney, i love Ghost Trick, simulators are pretty addictive for me, i now gravitate so much more with puzzle games like Zero Escape, visual novels, indies, i think these genres have much more impactful games than jrpgs nowadays.
@@Norel_Nieves and i feel the same with Radiant Historia it was better than i expected. Beautiful game.
@@violetsky22 vagrant story is a top tier game, very cinematic, and the atmosphere and setting is very dark, kinda what dark souls would eventually be.
That tweet in the first minute is honestly just rude as hell to Vanillaware. "Eh, it's okay. I'll settle for this." Not to mention, this person surely has access to Ogre Battle at this moment, whether legally or otherwise. They're a fan enough of the game to want it re-released, after all. Why not just.... play it again? Why beg for every game to be remastered when a new console cycle rolls around? Did you lose or sell all your old games? I want sequels and new IPs, not a constant fixation on putting a spotlight on the classics.
hard disagree, i think it's disrespectful to gamers to make older games unavailable to people who want to buy them, i feel if a company is sitting on a game and have no intention of rereleasing or making any kind of profit and no intention of making it available should make it playable on the internet archive or something, let people who do still care take care of it. you don't seem to see how expensive and difficult retro games are to buy and maintain, these things are old and only getting harder and harder to get in a nice working condition for a reasonable price. if the companies wanna keep it hidden away in the dragon hoard, then I'll get it my own way. like i really don't understand why it's so hard to understand that i want to give these companies money for old games yet all we get are unfaithful ai ridden "remasters" and remakes having the awesome side effect of coming with delistings when the older games actually *are* available on modern hardware. seriously like make this make sense
This sounds so counter to how I'm hard work to be. I'm SO GLAD I live in a Society where I'm not required to live this way.
Hian is a contrarian nihilist. Pretty much no one thinks like him.
@@blossom357
Nothing said in this podcast was contrarian or nihilistic though. The perspective of Mono no Aware is commonplace and pervasive in Japanese history and the arts, so it can hardly be said to be something "only I think" either =)
@@hian I made it almost to a hour mark before rage quitting. From what I've heard, he's (the guest) shaming people for liking and holing on to things they love. This thinking means people like myself who's naturally conservative... no I'm not taking politically, but people who don't like change because change in itself doesn't equal good. The logic of this thinking means people like myself are somehow defective humans. So yeah, I *have a problem* with this thinking.
@AntonioCunningham Nowhere in this video was anything like this said or implied in any way. I think you are totally misunderstanding the concept if this is what you took away from this.
@@AntonioCunningham
I too, would be very interested in hearing why you got that impression. I think, on two different occasions, I distinctly said the exact opposite - that I neither fault nor blame, nor think less of people for being attached to the past. Rather, we were discussing an ideal of being able to let go of things before they become an unhealthy point of focus that distract from your ability to enjoy the present and the future.
Nothing of this has anything to do with conservatism or political values either unless you want to make it about that. Nothing I said was an endorsement of the future as being "better than the past" in some moral sense. I make this clear in the essay too. It is only a pragmatic sentiment about how to orient yourself in a world that changes whether you want to or not, and doing so in a healthy manner. Most importantly, it was an account of a sentiment that is commonplace in Japanese media and art.
If this discussion makes you angry, I would be curious to think how you feel about Japanese art and media in general, when it so routinely expresses this idea.
I think this concept doesn't have a place in the current videogame industry unfortunately, you need to keep bringing old games back for people who didn't played them at the time.
Dont tell the haters of Rebirth and Remake about this concept tho.
This doesn't apply because the storytelling of Remake and Rebirth is just bad story telling, even when divorced from the memory of the original. It had no compelling themes. It's literally about the game makers' struggles to satisfy fans' expectations and thus relegating their story to events that subvert those fans' expectations due to their own inability to not crumble under the weight of that tasks. The game is also literally telling a story of not letting go and how loss is not definite or permanent due to multi-timeline shenanigans.
@@pauldavis7318 And yet ask people about the Remake trilogies themes and they'll gush about how powerful and compelling they are, people who never played the original game. A lot of stuff seems more powerful because we were young and it was unique being the first few rpgs we played. I know for certain that if I played VII or any of the other Squaresoft games as an adult for the first time, I'd think less of them.
@@pauldavis7318 I disagree for Remake entirely. The game is very strong at telling a story of people trying to be something they're not, be it Cloud being this badass mercenary dude, or even AVALANCHE trying to be these big guys, and how their humanity and their lives are crumbling underneath that. It has a whole character arc around it where Cloud treats the Sector 7 sidequests purely as jobs as a mercenary while in Sector 5 under Aerith's influence he starts to let go of that and become actually attached to the people he's helping. Meanwhile you also have the turks trying to be the pure professionals doing human horrors but clearly being conflicted about it in their hearts. The whole game is themed around this and honestly it does this theme better than original FF7 ever did, even using the whole Aerith memories plotline to have her take part in the same idea of where she's not sure if she's supposed to be "the fated heroine" or just the person she is, with the game setting up that she would try to live as a human, and well, if you played OG you know what that means but we don't yet know what that would entail.
Of course Rebirth then fires all of that into the sun and replaces it with welcome to FF7 amusement park, we have memes and attractions of all your favorite characters and locations, we have meaningless boss fights against every Shinra director and all the Turks that tell no story and have no character development, we have multidimensional ten stage fights, and all of it goes nowhere, but hey it's all huge and pretty and stuffed full of CONTENT, are you not entertained? Man I hate that game so much.
@@pauldavis7318I think one of the compelling themes is exactly what Mike and Hian are talking about in this video
Sorry, I couldn't make it to the hour mark. To maintain my peace and keep myself from yelling at the phone in disagreement, I'm tapping out here. I want *nothing* to do with this way of thinking.
Good thing nobody asked you then, huh?
@@JustSkram Jesus dude, calm your jets. Anyone is free to express their opinions. There's no need for smartass comments just because someone disagrees with the overall sentiment.
Touch grass my dude.
@@JustSkram Oh no! how dare a person have an opinion on the internet.
While I personally disagree with this Mono No Aware mindset, making comments helps with the engagement on the channel. I *want* the channel to keep growing even if I greatly disagree with said video.
So yeah, I gonna make comments under channels I like even if no one ask me to.
@@AntonioCunninghamWhat do you disagree with, though? What part of this philosophy is so out of bounds?
@@michaelcoraybrown The part where it's wrong/bad to hold on to things. There was multiple times where this was seen as if it was a bad thing, however for people like me that's natural. It feels alien to let go of things. Especially when I have no good reason to let them go. If I was compelled to follow this idea, I wouldn't be here.
What he's suggesting is that people like myself are born defective, so yeah, that bothers me greatly.
Nah
What are this guys credentials or education or anything? When these topics don't have a Japanese guest, and the guy is speaking so definitively about Japanese people, history, customs, philosophy etc it just leaves me nervous to take any of it as more than another weeaboo that is maybe making a lot of this up. I was hoping in your intro you'd list more of his sources or something, but 10 minutes in I don't know where he's coming from.
Clicked the essay link and no sources listed either fwiw
Half my life living, working and raising a family there. University degrees in Japanese area studies(major in Japanese language and culture, minor in sociology), and Philosophy(major in phil, and minor in psychology).
I've been a regular contributor for the channel since the dark pixel days over ten years ago, translating Mike's correspondances and setting him up with guests like Alexander O. Smith, as well as helping him with research due to my connections and work experience in the Japanese games industry.
(I also question why one would expect a personal essay to contain sources, when it contains no scientific or controversial claims, nor was written for academic publication. It was written, initially, only for acquaintances. Mike read it and asked for its inclusion, to which I obliged)
Cheers.
@@hianPersonally I didn’t think you had to explain yourself since it seemed obvious, but it *is* the internet so I get where the question was coming from. But that was a great response and actually provided some insight I wouldn’t have thought to ask for.
@@hian I agree with you, especially given the context that it was only for a closed circle. But sources are not only for "credibility" or "authority". I think they can be read as "if you want to know more about this" list of interesting articles/books/literature. I feel a section like that really goes home with "sharing knowledge".
(But I'm the kind of person to fact-check my fact-checks, I'd put sources on the grocery list if I could 😅.)