Get a copy of Chris's New York Times Bestseller, "America's Cultural Revolution: How the Radical Left Conquered Everything": www.amazon.com/Americas-Cultural-Revolution-Conquered-Everything/dp/0063227533
Exactly how is woke nut Bakery more dangerous than the lunatic Maga ideology? Last I checked woke doofus's own the media but they don't own the courts that belongs to Maga sheep and Peter never points that out. We are far closer to death as a nation from the right then we are from the left right now. Why is this never pointed out.
I call foul on this he guy isn't about stopping a bad thing from happening this guy's about selling books and appealing to the lowest common denominator. It's a shame that you'd bring a sleaze bag like this on just because he opaquely lands on your side.
I teach in a school of education and psychology. There are 120 Democrat professors and 0 Republicans. (I’ve been independent since the Cold War ended.)
Yeah. One of my degrees is in Education. I'm no longer confident that diploma holds much value. I considered myself left-leaning til about 2012. In 2023 it's NEVER AGAIN.
@@laurasummers115 It’s embarrassing. Education has really lowered the bar. Some of my students are teachers from LA unified. They are my worst students. Nice people and they care about their students, but they want to be spoon fed. This is a Doctorate program. I would’ve gotten my Doctorate in business or leadership (My Doctorate is in Leadership but out of the Ed school) from a business school, but there weren’t any part time programs 25 years ago. I am near retirement now, so that ship has sailed. I am finishing up my 13 years teaching and retiring my 40 year aerospace career. It’s been good regardless.
My friend is a professor and he’s conservative. He cannot wait to retire and said it’s been extra bad the past 5-6 years in terms of things he can or cannot say on campus I don’t see universities turning this around either. I mean, who would they ?
@@brianmeen2158 My University is not that way (yet). The professors are very nice. It wouldn’t surprise me if the new professors come in with that attitude. The Left infects and destroys the orgs that it takes over. We don’t need 40% of the Universities. Employers are picking up on the woke/victimization stuff. Headhunters are already telling candidates to take the pronouns off of their resumes. They’ve done a study showing the ones with pronouns get hired less than the ones that have them. So. There we go. Let the market make adjustments.
Yes and sadly you are going to waste a lot of time trying to get people to understand this. It shocks me the amount of people that hear “equity” and just clap and cheer as if it’s the same as equality
@@central_scrutinizrThe remedy for past discrimination is current discrimination. The remedy for current discrimination is future discrimination. ☠️☠️☠️
Fantastic. I've been aware of Rufo for a while, and I'm still trying to work my way through everything he's saying, but what I enjoy about him is that he's fearless in the way that he critiques contemporary culture... and we need A LOT more of that. What I HOPE he's saying is that our academic establishment must embrace fact over ideology and, ultimately, find the truth no matter where it resides. If so, then yes... give us more Rufos. A lot more.
This has been my very first exposure to Mr Rufo - what a conversation! Loved it! What an entertaining, enlightening, courageous and informative discussion. Thanks to you both.
Two things you should teach your children 1/ To understand the difference between intelligence and wisdom... 2/ To have the ability to reject nihilism and anger the two main pathways that lead to degeneracy/self hate and cruelty
Anti woke Stuff I did so far: Post freedom news. I went to a school committee meeting and asked to replace their pride flag with an everyone flag. I shared the video of that. I made a paper guide and gave it out. I advertise Woke stuff my family and past friend do. I voted republican for the first time.
Republicans are no kind of improvement. They oppress women, for instance, just as much as the woke do, they just do it from a different angle. They're just as willing to send your kids off to war, too.
@@MarkHWillson I voted R for all in Massachusetts. I think I ruled out most because I thought they supported fake elections by not having ID. I don't remember. Maybe they didn't support speech. I can be very liberal, but tend to be very conservative because they're bad at spending. Sometimes I have to compromise on abortion. I strongly support abortion and eugenics. It should be legal until the fetus is a person >17 years old.
Thank you, Peter, for saying you don't understand things and asking for them to be explained - I'm sure you have a much better grasp than you are letting on in these conversations - but these in depth clarifications you elicit from your guests really help to put a solid foundation under concepts which would otherwise have to be taken on their authority. Unfortunately to combat the many bad ideas that are floating around us, those who challenge them, have been put in the position of having to defend both themselves and their ideas while navigating a labyrinth of cleverly worded pitfalls. One ill chosen word and any debate is derailed and will turn instantly into an inquisition. If however, it is possible to strike through with some argument, it is vital to know that it stands on something more than the substance of someone else's opinion. The target is not however the indoctrinated, they have looked into the abyss far too long, as ever, the target is the fence sitters in the audience.
Peter, I've heard you ask the question multiple times why certain people get hoodwinked hook, line and sinker and others don't. I'm sure you have reached your own conclusions in this regard. I think that it is a definitely a disposition of mild cynicism developed by people who almost have an innate propensity for observation and idea dissection. This is the core difference between somone who is gullible and someone who is constructively skeptical. This is what I used to think people meant when they would say "seeker" (although now I am sure they didn't). In my mind real seekers of truth know that they will always be on that path because they know that at any given time they could be proven wrong. Therefore none of their own identity becomes tied to their current conclusions or assumptions and they are extremely cautious not to become attached to any group think as the natural human need to belong will lock them into ideological structures that end up taking away their freedom of thought. Anyway I'm rambling on a bit so I'll leave it there. Thanks for another great interview!
I have concluded the gullibility can be measured using the Big 5 personality test. If you are high in Agreeableness and Openess you will go along to get along. If you are low in Agreeableness, and high in Openess you will be open to and able to discern between a wide range of ideas. The latter configuration tends to make you less active in the social realm (low in trait Agreeableness). It's a rare combination of traits that will see much sense in pushing back or getting involved until the day the pitchforks and torches come for them.
Mr. Lewis, thank you for your extended reply. I tend to leave longer replies which means people don’t bother to read them. I find it more helpful to learn from others when they go into depth on their knowledge and viewpoints. I still need to ponder a little more what you had said. I think that a lot of the woke Crowd, social justice warriors, transgender activists and the people that believe in CRT, systemic racism and oppression are ideologically motivated to such an extent that even well documented fax cannot get them to even question their viewpoints. Thomas Sowell does a really interesting discussion on what motivates people beliefs, especially progressives and others on the far left. I think it might be partly included in his talk called ‘the myth of economic inequality.’ You did kind of get off track a little bit towards the end but I get why Peter doesn’t want to come out firmly with his viewpoints despite the fact that most commentators and Podcasters are pretty clear where they stand. Apparently I can’t read the rest of your post without kicking myself out. That’s not usually a problem with making an original comment. Anyway, if you have any more insights please share bc at least some of us read longer texts and would and be interested in hearing your thoughts.
If I may give my thoughts. I actually don’t think most people believe the things they are claiming as truth. They have been taught you don’t need to agree but you need to respect other people, so wanting to be kind and on the “right side” they accept these ideas and theories and parrot the talking points. This is further reinforced by the group by ostracizing those who question part of the orthodoxy and most people just want to be accepted and in good social standing. But I am certain most of the people we see in our daily lives do not fully believe it but they have been told they lack experience and expertise and therefore need to allow others to set the tone. They are using historical atrocities as a parallel to what is happening now trying to show that people couldn’t see then the evils going on back then similarly to someone now who doesn’t fully get it and manipulating people into silence.
@@AndyJarman Hmmm. I'm high in agreeableness and openness. I'm also skeptical. It only means I'm REALLY struggling with how to interact with the cult members. I suspect my personality may be changing. Age, or adversity? I have more questions than conclusions.
First off, thank you Peter and Chris. You're both doing fantastic work in combating this lunacy. A couple of points if I may: As an atheist, I found myself a little erked by the, in my view, tenouos link between woke ideology and the lack of belief in god. It is most definitely possible to be atheist and oppose this destructive ideology at the same time. The Dawkins comparison between transubstantiation and trans is actually quite a good one. Both maintain that reality can literally change simply by incantation.
As a former Catholic I actually made this connection before I heard Dawkins make it during that interview. But certainly having someone with Dawkins brilliance reaffirmed that I was on to something. I use this argument plus the much of the radical left is basically gnosticism argument when talking to some of my fellow atheists who have swung over to the atheist+ spectrum. So far I have one or two of them rethinking things. Many still refuse to engage me at all or say I have strayed onto some path leading me toward fanaticism. I was unaware that as an atheist I had signed on to a whole set of belief systems that had nothing to do with my position that there is no credible evidence for the existence of any god. It is interesting to me that I am finding more acceptance among my remaining religious friends than I do among those atheist friends with whom I have differences. I'm really still trying to process what that means.
I disagree with you on a lot Peter, but I very much respect your commitment to the pursuit of truth and open dialogue. And similarly, I want to go about reducing the number of things that I believe that are untrue, and increase the amount of things I believe that are true. I'd chat you up in good faith!
One thing I wish Peter would address with both Rufo and Lindsay, is the "groomer" rhetoric. It's actually hurting "regular" gays that have nothing to do with woke ideology or gender nonsense. Because it's used as a weapon like it was in the 80's and 90's when evangelicals and right wingers called ALL gays "groomers/pedophiles" etc. It took decades to get past that. Most people think of the word groomer as synonymous with pedophile. For people who think language is so important [Lindsay, Peter, Rufo], it's irresponsible not consider this ripple effect of "groomer".
It's not up to them, its up to the gay "community" who let these people into their ranks and either refuse or are too scared to call it out. Look into Gays Against Groomers. They're pushing back against the indoctrination of children and are thusly being named "bigots" and right wing extremists. And to say "right wingers" of the 90s and 80s called *all* gays groomers is incredibly disingenuous and to say it's somehow these mens duty to untarnish the representation of an entire community is just slimy. It's not their responsibility.
Blame the groomer activists who are trying to normalize sexuality with children, not the responsible adults who recognize their grooming behavior and call it out for what it is.
boo hoo. gays and lesbians have started fighting back and they better start fighting these freaks even harder. The woke have latched onto a lot of different groups and institutions and have ruined their reputation. It's not just the gay community that has suffered from the association with woke. The left has completely degraded itself by allowing these people to run their politics. .
Something that I don’t fully understand is why we have to define (for example) transgender medicine as a conservative or ‘progressive’ position. Personally, I believe in science. You can have all of the plastic surgery in the world, but you can’t change your chromosomes. If you’re a guy with a beard, I don’t care if you say your name is Kayla - you’re a guy & you need to get the hell out of my spa, change room, etc. That said, it has nothing to do with religion. I was baptised Greek Orthodox, but it’s more cultural for me than specifically religious. I’m engaged to an atheist. That doesn’t change the facts of a matter. It shouldn’t be a ‘conservative’ position to say, ‘sex is not a spectrum’ and ‘no, you can’t teach 5 year olds about gender, sex and trans people, nor is it appropriate to take children to have drag queen story time.’ My problem with Christopher Rufo in much of this conversation is his comment regarding not wanting ‘diverse opinions’ because the term is ‘loaded & puts my side at a disadvantage’. Really? I understand what he’s getting at, but as someone who is probably a bit left of center (in general) it seems like it’s tough to find common ground when you’re a classical liberal/liberal republican/right leaning democrat/whatever, we need to have conversations without making it specifically an ‘us vs. them’ type thing. Don’t get me wrong - I believe we do *have* the common ground. Conversations like this show it! My genuine concern is that I don’t want (very) conservative schools or people to veer in the other direction so that we’re teaching kids the earth is only 6,000 years old, people lived side by side with dinosaurs & everything that happened in the bible is fact. I attended a religious private school, but it was an independent prep school. We had theology, but fact was paramount. The fact that Rufo considers the Catholic Church, ‘liberal’, is genuinely bizarre. You can make that argument about individuals, but not about the Catholic Church itself. There is no question that the so-called ‘progressives’ are anything but. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Rufo is really a person who is doing what he’s doing for the right reasons. People can believe in God & science while also not being religious in the church-going, bible reading sense. Humans & their behaviours are all nuanced. Wanting something to be true will not make it true. The ‘lived experience’ of 1 person does not necessarily make something a fact. Someone who can teach a class and be objective in presenting facts & invite students to question them & one another & keep a genuinely open dialogue and learning should be the goal. A ‘noble vision’ is subjective. Much as I agree with the fact that we need to get rid of the insanity that is capturing institutions & return it to a free marketplace of ideas & curiosity, Rufo’s language comes across as someone who may well make the situation in to a war of religions - the religions of The Woke vs. Evangelical Christian types. There is a lot of nonsense in America right now. Unfortunately, I am finding Rufo’s ideas and commentary to be almost banal & uninspired because of the point society has reached. To Peter, I’d love to discuss beliefs with you as someone who has never been sucked in to the nonsense of CRT, gender ideology, etc. You’d probably be surprised because one of my traits is actually ironic re the gender ideology. I’m not trans, but I do have Asperger’s. Most wouldn’t be able to tell unless I’ve told them, but I’d love to expand on that. I am glad you are using your platform to reach a large variety of people.
I don’t believe they are. I thought you did a wonderful job on trying to put forth that POV. I really hope that we can eventually get to a point where the majority of people can take facts for what they are: facts. No mess, no more.
I think the value sets on both sides(far left vs center right) are so far apart at this point that I’m afraid there is no happy medium . I think if the more liberal center left stepped up and pushed the far left out then it could work but not until so .
Btw I like Rufo but I understand why people may not. I am honestly not sure what I think of his methods though and heavy handed approach (getting rid of DEI etc) but I look around and fail to see other fixes or solutions. ..?The time for debate is over as that should have happened decades ago - CRT and gender ideologies are already in the system and tbh Rufo is the only one that seems to want to get rid of it. I’ve heard some on the liberal or center left say they don’t agree with these ideologies yet don’t seem to have any desire(or ability) to push them out of the institutions .. they seem Petrified of the far left
@@brianmeen2158 I agree that other people need to be hired. My idea would be the legal avenue of actually filing law suits against the public schools that force this kind of stuff. Why? They aren’t presenting a debate if actions are taken against dissenting voices. Every time people start these insane pile-ons in attempt to ruin someone’s life, sue them for harassment. Sue for wrongful termination. People need to fight back. I’m not opposed to getting rid of DEI - I don’t believe it furthers anything & in the 50 years after MLK’s protests, race relations were generally good until all of this nonsense began. I fully admit that a big part of the problem are the moderates like myself, or even the liberals who just feel there’s no harm in indulging a delusion. By not pushing back, ignoring what’s happening & in some cases, joining the pile on because they think they should, the problem gets worse. What’s difficult (isn’t it always?) is finding the middle ground. In that respect, I can say that I hope Rufo is successful in bringing multiple people from different backgrounds & who hold different ideas, together. Do I believe it’s likely? No. I worry that it’s almost inevitable that he will end up with another echo chamber. I hope I’ll be wrong! One thing I think we all agree on: we need to get the majority of society to come back to reality. The current situation is utterly untenable.
Yes! Take Back the Institutions!! I just toured a Christian University in Texas, with the hopes it may have the one non-woke psych program for me to help balance out the “all gender-affirming care” counselors I found that the graduate school psych professors post their pronouns and they have a DEI dept. I am So disappointed. I was musing over it, not long before this talk, that maybe I still could go and be the voice of reason among them, not afraid to call professors out on BS- just as I did in undergrad before. If you’re recruiting, sign me up! It’s Kismet. ❤
@@brianmeen2158 They’re obviously intentionally infiltrating our Christian Universities, as it is a war move. We can Still Fight Back! Laying down and taking it is what makes them believe you’re okay with it, so they keep going further.
My 2 problems with Chris's arguments are as follows. 1) He puts forward the argument against equity succinctly and seems to understand this, but then he proposes that there should be a set number of conservatives installed into academic institutions using the arguments for equity. 2) Under the banner of states rights he argues that it is correct for California to subject their children who believe they are Trans, to surgical interventions. This is not a conservative position (for people who believe in objective morality) or a morally defensible position. If you believe in universal human rights and believe this surgery is immoral, then you must believe that children have the right to be protected from adults who are their carers that plan to do them harm. When he meets contradictory positions he seems to arbitrarily choose one over the other rather than this causing him to question the foundations of his beliefs and how he came to these contradictory positions, and I think that is the difference between an activist such as him and a true academic such as Peter.
Matt was always woke. I find it funny how some people refused to see that. I heard about the guy 10-15ish years ago, and he was woke as a, well, something that is very woke.
I remember when I was hanging around the Atheist online community (just out of curiosity, I'm not an atheist myself) and it was such a surreal experience to see the religion of Wokeness seeming to spontaneously erupt from within, and to quickly take root, and then to devour the community and turn it into "Atheism Plus." But in retrospect, there had been Wokeish atheists even in the beginning; they just weren't as blatant until they'd gotten a firm grip on the community, and essentially destroyed it. They really are like a virus. "The Virus of Critical Social Justice" is one of James' videos that finally showed me how it had happened. . . they WANT to be like virions: they compare themselves FAVORABLY to Ebola, HIV, and SARS; and they compare conservatives to an immune system.
@@zxyatiywariii8 Yeah. As a member of those old atheist communities it was sad and shocking to see that happen. Weirdly enough, the thing happened globally everywhere to local groups too, not just in the online community. I think once a group becomes populous enough there will eventually be cancerous cells that turn the whole thing into a big fat tumour. The cancer might be feminism, or anti-racism, but usually the whole woke thing. And it usually starts with female members starting to reach a critical mass. This woke cancer took over pretty much every community. Movies, TV shows, gaming, nerd stuff, hell even tech and science. The problem is that fighting it leads to social and professional s--cide.
Peter you've inspired me to read Chris' book. Wow. I have a stack of as-yet unread books to dive into. While we may have a long way to go, I'm heartened by the growing number of voices of reason getting their ideas out there. Thanks for your work which is a part of the catalyst!!!
Equity = equality of outcome (irrespective of inputs). That means, for example, that those cultures that privilege education and hard work cannot gain more from the system than those culture that do not value those elements; it means that a reward system in a company is deemed ‘inequitable’ if the outcome is that women are paid less than men, irrespective of the jobs they choose to do, levels of seniority they aspire to, and the career choices they make: leaving to have children, for instance. A country based on these principles would soon decay: people would be appointed not on merit but to fulfil equality of outcome quotas and there would be no incentive for people to aspire to do better through hard work and education as the fruits of their work would be redistributed to others who might not merit them. Productively would plummet, incompetence would be rife, and the best and most motivated would be discouraged. The enemies of the West would rejoice.
People that are woke, how many of them used to be religious and then became atheist. And people who never buy into the woke culture - how many where never religious?
Rufo is right in his characterization of Biden regarding all the DEI stuff. To put it another way, Glen Loury calls Biden an avatar for the left. That's about as concise as it gets. I don't hate Biden, because he's just a tool and an old man. He's not a terrible person or president. But if he does run again--which it seems he intends to--and is not adequately challenged for the nom, then I will not vote for him this time around. Last time around, I voted against Trump. But I have to add that assuming that Trump does get the nom, I won't vote for him either. I'll write in a candidate. I hate this effing WOKE virus, and see it as a threat to democracy, but so do I see Trump as a threat. Both are forms of authoritarianism that must be defeated. But I don't see this happening, actually. One way or other, I think that we are being inexorably drawn towards one chasm or another, after which the outcome remains very uncertain. The next decade or less may determine whether we survive as a nation in the context of democratic principles. I'm not optimistic.
Agree. I was classic liberal and now find myself independent. I can’t support the left anymore, but Trump and Trumpists are just the flip side of the same coin as Woke. Both sides now only care about absolute power. It’s fascism vs. Stalinism all over again. Rational people are now caught between a rock and a hard place.
Trump isn't authoritarian in the slightest. It boggles my mind that you can recognise the dangers of this neo Marxist ideology, but somehow equate Trump as being equally dangerous. Crazy.
Yes this. I agree Biden is an empty vessel. Very much the "Manchurian Candidate" if you will. People think that the assassin was the candidate, the point of the film, but he was only the tool (read social activists)through which the candidate could ascend to power and the agenda be pushed. Biden has always blown with the wind and sought power by going along with the prevailing ideology. Trump was born into power and privilege. He loves exercising it for the benefit of his family and personal gain. He is the danger of populist authoritarianism that is easy to fall into. He sees the problems with the left but he fails to understand the dangers he himself poses. Nor does he convey any understanding of the boundaries between personal power and executive power. Both of them are shrewd in many ways. Neither of them is actually very intelligent or self aware. If all we get is a rehash of the previous election like you I cannot vote for either of them.
@@juggernautnation369 This could probably be characterized as one of those situations where if you have to even ask such a question, you'll never know the answer--no matter what I or anyone else says or writes to try and convince you. Plenty of authoritarian leaders of the past and present came to power because of people like you, because you and your kind don't see them in such a light. That's as much as I will comment on this.
Thanks for this conversation! Is there any way we can see some of the answers to the survey/poll questions you asked ? (Aside from what was shown during the live ) I’m curious to see all the answers.
Okay, there is a bit that is getting missed in the talk about Locke. It is not a choice of Florida vs California and if you don't like what got elected in California you can get up and leave. Locke tells you what happens when the government fails or otherwise breaks the social contract. The people can kick out the government and replace it with one that better reflects the will of the people. There is also a hard limit on what citizens can tolerate from government. Government may not decide to do wicked and evil things and mutilate or murder the citizens. That breaks the social contract by breaching natural law. By breaching your innate right to defend yourself. If you want the Bible reference to make sense of that if you are a (conservative) Christian it's in the Old Testament. If someone is coming to kill you, get up early, kill them first.
How does Rufo consider the Catholic church liberal? Protestantism created the pathway toward Liberalism, but in either case religion is antithetical to science and reason, the cornerstones of the Enlightenment principles upon which America is founded. I agree wholeheartedly the Left has gone insane, but to push back with another irrational ideology makes me nervous! Turns all this into the kind of religious wars of European history.
Also, the Human natural questions need to be more nuanced. Psychologically yes, and we should and we do. Physical nature I'm much more doubtful and very cautious.
@@1SpicyMeataball I agree with Lindsay that MOST people need faith in a mythic narrative in their PERSONAL lives (for psychological reasons) and on the social level, but I think it's a dangerous path for politics and law -- just as it would be for the STEM fields. Any scientist worth his salt is familiar with his own ignorance AND knows science is the best bulwark against emotion driven confirmation bias -- humility is baked into the scientific method. Evidence based epistemology is a must in the weightier concrete facts of existence.
I think the answer to Peters question of why some people are more gullible than others has got to do with the way they were raised as children. If they were strongly exposed to and influenced by religion then they are more likely to accept an idea or belief based on emotion rather than on evidence.
I loved the question about why some people have no problem accepting all this nonsense. I can’t believe the ‘smart’ people I know who just accept these ideas as truth.
@@MoonshineH All the woke ideas. Some people I know don’t ask what the ideas mean, what is the history, are the ideas based on truths and common sense? Accept nothing even if the majority are espousing the ideas. “ The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” Marcus Aurelius (121-180 AD)
Because some people are simply nor that smart. People generally don't like to point that out. We have no problem saying Dawkins is brilliant. And admitting most of us aren't as smart. But we can't admit that the sane comparison exists at a lower tier.
Identity politics leads them there. Because ID politics leads to cultures of cronyism and grift -they invent illogical things to justify their grift and cronyism.
The west is being economically eclipsed by former client states (China). Consequently the redistribution of wealth can no longer be afforded. Politicians are casting about for free stuff to throw at the crowds. Puritanical abhorrence comes free and can't (prima facie) be criticised.
Off topic but related, we have the same type of problem in medicine. There’s a medical ideology surrounding treatment plans that says the doctor is the authoritarian and any questioning of that authority is disallowed, especially regarding vaccination of all children, at all times in every situation. If you dion’t you’re kicked out of their practice. Physicians who have refused to become the red guard for the health regulatory institutions are paralyzed with fear to speak against it.
I suspect that everyone holds some beliefs that could be described as religious. People like Dawkins usually have a strong (pseudo-religious) value system that doesn't depend on supernatural beliefs but still holds the positions within their heads that traditionally religious beliefs hold in traditional believers' heads. The problem arises when lazy thinkers abandon traditional religious beliefs and they have no strong critical thinking skills to prevent the woke group-think from taking hold. The cure is teaching critical thinking to small children.
So critical trace theory pushes some people down, rather than lifting people up? It seems pretty negative and now I am required to feel guilt for putting effort into my life? Have I got it right?
Woke language games, often with double meanings. Please add. Decolonisation (taking the post war, decolonising processes when they are really taking about Fannon's psychic possession theory) Abolition (taking Fred Douglass abolishing of slavery when they are talking about ending police and prisons in a racial frame) Diversity, equity, inclusion. (All obvious) Gender affirming care - really, sex negating mutilation Sex assigned at birth
Public employees do not have First Amendment Rights while executing their duties. Public schools cannot teach anything they want in the same way that Kim Davis, the Kentucky country clerk, did not have the right to not issue a same sex marriage license because of her religious beliefs.
i like christophers optimism, but it's undeniably over for liberal arts faculties in colleges in terms of overturning ideological capture, it's here to stay. i don't see any horseshoe effect occurring and the implications this has had on the institutions these students have been employed in has undeniably also reinforced this. interesting conversation though, enjoyed it.
I like Rufos persistence as well but I see it like you do - CRT and other ideologies are pretty much infested in most Institutions at this point . Rufo might be able to push it back in a few select schools in Florida but I fail to see how that will have any effect on the bigger picture? Props to Peter for starting a new university but I struggle seeing that have any type of noticeable effect either. You will have one school(which will be slandered endlessly by mainstream media and other institutions) going up against thousands of others that push this ideology out daily. Even if by some miracle we could completely eliminate the teaching of this ideology in all schools starting tomorrow - you still have multiple generations of indoctrinated students spreading it pretty much everywhere. Rufos action needed to happen 20 years ago if not longer. In This type of situation the only way to win is to get rid of the infection immediately - you can’t let it infect every segment of society and then try to step in and correct it. It’s just too late by then
I think lack of transparency in any institution is what's so detrimental. Also the way algorithms are feeding the binary tribalism through suggestion, ads and sponsorhips.
I didn't hear that considered as a solution. I heard the problem is universities who have evolved into political institutions grooming a predominant radical ideologies that members of both main political parties recognize as the opposite of fundamental principles of free discourse and free debate by weak administrators & faculty who fear DEI officers who have become totalitarians. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't hear a solution to the problem. I heard a civil discussion by two intelligent men whom I assume disagree on some or perhaps many political issues but DO AGREE on the fundamental problem in current academia and are both searching for a solution. I believe if Americans and our elected leaders could remember how to have such civil discourse on important issues of the day, maybe vwe could save America. Not only Americans, but the world needs a strong, free America. We were once a moral compass other countries were influenced by. We're quickly becoming seen as imperialist bullies recklessly heading towards WW3. I don't believe this new woke identity politics that cancels people, censors what the gatekeepers judge to be "misinformation" and commits public reputation lynchings of those whom they most fear...men also regarded as respected experts in their professions but who disgree with the narrative of the Biden administration. We hear African American scholars and elected leaders called Uncle Toms, RFK Jr.'s name is always preceded by Radical anti vaxer, madman and now an anti semite. Author J.K. Rowlings is a transpobe, etc. , etc. MATT Taibbi is ridiculed. Enough! I am a 59 yr. old half Tuscarora half white American who has voted both ways. I don't hate Biden or Trump. I don't get what happened to the country I love. I don't know what happened to the legacy press. I have 2 graduate degrees and I tell you, I do not understand what happened. Supporting controlled BORDERS gets u called a racist but I heard the Mayor of NYC FINALLY cry out for border control in a speech in last couple days...Now that his city is overrun with people crossing illegally, he finally gets what the governors of border states have been talking about. They weren't being racist, they were being realists. The Chaos is now here. I pray it's not too late to save the America I loved, the one who defended individual freedom against government totalitarianism. Anyways, sorry I went off course. My point is we need to get back to discussing & debating ideas and stop the bullying and divisive tactics used by totalitarian governments before we become one. Thanks
Karl Popper addressed the propensity for liberalism to be taken advantage of (the paradox of tolerance). However, progressivism has no limitations within it unless conservatives are involved in the debate about merits. Conservatives tend to act as little more than a break on progress, but there is an argument that they may have insight into the hidden merits of tradition and habit.
I love Peter, and I'm actually reading Rufo's book (which is frequently inaccurate.) I'm sort of with Rufo anyway as far as cultural controls. But Tucker and Trump are much too far to the right. The proper position is in the center. I'd like to see us move toward social democracy, but at the political-economic level-- hands off controlling individuals. Equality not equity.
Academia is controlled by powerful centres depending on the subject (Bordieux). Put the conservative professors there. BYU is also a conservative instituion.
I think the answer to Peter’s other question about why some people just accept a narrative and others don’t has to do with their neurological underpinnings. Most people are linear thinkers and a small minority of people just aren’t. To understand this, one could use the Myers Briggs ‘personality’ assessment as a guide. It’s not really about personality, which is a result of neurology -> personality is down stream of the way your brain is wired. Anyway, neuro-divergent people don’t think in terms of going from point A to point B to point C. It doesn’t mean they can’t think linearly, they can. It’s just not their primary function, in Myers Briggs terms. They tend to think non-linearly through intuition - which is a subconscious collection of information that comes in from all directions through a variety of channels and then gets processed. Linear thinkers, when they’re standing at point A are looking/waiting for something labeled point B. Non-linear thinkers are considering point B… among many destinations, they don’t just jump to point B because someone told them over there is point B. As a matter of fact, non-linear thinkers don’t even label the points - they consider labeling points to be totally arbitrary. Even if the point labels make sense and are valid most of the time, neuro-divergent people don’t think linearly. So they just see point labels as a popularity contest. Sometimes people and things are popular for good reason, and sometimes they’re not. We don’t actually live in an age where popularity’s generally built on sound assessments of value. Just saying. And non-linear thinkers are the first to notice that. P.S. I personally am dyslexic. My brain doesn’t recognize point B as the next logical step from point A. We literally have difficulty alphabetizing. Not kidding. We actually have to stop and think about what comes next in the sequence even if we know, we don’t know. Yep, we have to sing the little alphabet jingle in our heads. We can’t tell our Right from our Left either. Again, we HAVE TO stop and think every time. Call them natural neurological roadblocks that keep us from jumping to conclusions, or being easily lead somewhere. These are stumbling blocks that are widely recognized; but I am sure there are dozens of others that exist subconsciously. That’s what makes us non-linear thinkers. Kind of like being gay, no one would choose to make life more difficult and no one really thinks it’s fun to be out of sync with the rest of society. One may be used to it and even come to embrace it, but when you are a kid you freakin hate it. Society is not pleased to welcome the neuro-divergent (that’s Woke bs) . It has to be some organic glitchy thing. P.P.S. The first time I really considered that I don’t think linearly came up when I realized I tend to think metaphorically as opposed to literally. When it comes to words, I often get lost in all the nuanced meanings and don’t notice then something is meant literally. Most people don’t have the considerations of multiple meanings as a problem. They have no problems stepping to point B which is the literal meaning. Some people stay there. They have the opposite problems from people like myself, it the other end of the neurological spectrum (autism) - they get stuck on literal meanings.
@@jonnysongs Feel free to skip my posts if they are too much trouble for you. Trust me I don't mind not hearing from you - since you didn't actual offer anything of substance - that I couldn't get from a 1st grade teacher's pet. If that's the only comment you could come up with based on what I wrote, believe me I won't be missing anything. And while we're doling out advice, I'd recommend a course in manners for you. You are very rude.
@@jonnysongs You're like those annoying jerks who endlessly complain about sound quality on TH-cam video. Jeepers crow, you're getting something for free that someone else put work into putting out, so shut the freak up. You might want to focus on the actual ideas and forgo nit-picking the punctuation - just a though. Pretend for a minute the ideas actual matter more than punctuation. How about I give you a butt load of punchy little paragraphs tailored just for you. lol.
@@jonnysongs This is my round about way of expressing my real thought which starts with 'F' and ends with 'you'. Next time stick to responding to the content of the comment and not the form, or better yet just mind your own business! No one needs a grammar teacher.
@@jonnysongs And for the record, nitpicking punctuation instead of grappling with the ideas presented doesn't come across as smart. It's actually the height of childish ignorance - you don't grasp what's important. And if you don't like the deluge of responses you received from me, GOOD! I hope you think twice before you chime in again. The last thing the free exchange of ideas on the Internet needs is the freakin grammar police! Anything that makes people afraid to speak up is the real problem, especially niggling critiques about form.
40:06 what follows here is exactly what they said in the EPATH conference in Killarney April 2023 - the evidence didn't catch up with the practice to trans people and see happy outcomes!
@drpeterboghossian Love that DS9 drop. For Picard Season 3(only season of it i watched) i really thought the reveal in Jacks mind was going to be related to the Pah-wraiths (evil prophets from that wormhole). Just in case you havent seen Picard season 3, which you really should, i dont want to spoil it but the writer.and showrunner for that season nailed it. Just like this interview. Cheers.
I watched maybe half of Picard S01. Went into it hopeful, but it immediately turned out that the cancer that is wokism has metastized in that show. Pure. Fucking. Hubris. Atrociously bad writing. I'm also thinking about skipping the rest of S01 and S02 and just watching the last season.
On the question of why some people succumb to ideologies and some don't, I have a theory! Only a theory of course, but.. It seems to me that some people are naturally sceptical and some people have a tendancy to latch onto ideology. In the Atheist movement I suspect that there is a correlation between the atheists who used to be full-on believers, who subsequently adopted wokeness, and the atheists who were never really religious, not doing so. I would love for someone to study this!
What I have observed. This is why atheists in countries like the US, where evangelicals are the majority, atheists are more prone to switch from Evangelical to woke. From one extreme to the next extrem.
The threat from Trump and Maga thinking is far greater than the threat from woke ideology at the moment. Encouraging people to vote for conservatives right now is suicidal at least if you value Democratic elections and the Constitution. I don't understand why Peter seems to be pushing people in that destructive path without ever making caveats.
Hey, I'm with you... but.. under this bill which ensures that teachers stick with the curriculum, do they teach that dinosaurs walked the earth 6 thousand years ago?
Love Rufo but there's no way to contact him even for a science project that would help the prestige of his college. The staff and board of directors are useless.
People aren't immune to indoctrination, but some people, who are skeptics, are very resilient to indoctrination because their mind basically knows no overton window. They may accept others overton window however, so they will probably abide from playing devils advocate for shunned topics in public for self-preservation reasons. But if you wanted to test that theory, you could do a study and ask people to play devils advocate for an indefensible ideology. The skeptics I'm talking about would, given enough time, be able to argue as the devil, but "normal" people would at best be able to argue very, very weakly, because they literally can't put themselves into the perspective of others.
I can't say I've watched this video yet but I have to say the title sounds disingenuous. If the radical left has conquered everything how come I'm still living in a capitalist society? The radical left has really dropped the ball if that is the case. Almost as if corporations pay lip service to certain ideas because they believe having pride flags makes them look progressive when the hard reality is everything is judged on the bottom line. I am sceptical of some identity politics, and trans ideology I believe to be outrageously harmful and a massive blindspot for the left but to suggest the USA or western society in general has been taken over by radical leftist ideology just sounds patently at odds with reality.
The balkanisering of California would be immoral for you do not only leave them to their own devices but the many innocent children will be the victim of the unmitigated chaos.
@@drpeterboghossian the disposition towards courage and curiosity, and in holding to values in an environment were others values may be diametrically opossed. I do believe that people are born with certain characteristics and certainly pick those.up from the people in their environment. Some people may pick up boldness and others, like the young people in our universities, may pick up conformity. So this complex dynamic of innate and conditioned characteristics. I think curiosity is important. I feel that it is mostly innate but can be cultivated as well.
1:12:00 I was a Security Policeman in the AF (back when dinosaurs walked the Earth). When I was on duty I could be court marshaled for sang Good Morning to someone walking by. Reason, AF Regs. stated I was Not to speak to anyone except In The Line Of Duty. Now this is obviously an Extreme example and as far as I know it never happened...But it could. If you are in the military the Bill of Rights May Not always apply to you.
Opening a journal is not that difficult if it is online and diamond open access. I think. I have seen a few open access journals being started, and now a couple of diamond open access are in the way. With a few big names among the editors they seem to start off quite well. And if that's an open access journal, you don't need to convince libraries of anything. If the journal is self managed and doesn't have a big pool of people doing small useless edits to enhance appearance, it would probably be ok to run even with help of a small conservative donor. Getting 1000 profs hired would probably be more difficult...
I love these conversations. James Lindsay, Jordan Peterson etc. Very helpful and educational. The irony is I believe ultimate truth is found in the Biblical God. So it's interesting how much I agree with, and how many of these ideas align with the Bible.🙂
Are these entrenched views linked to people with psychopathic personalities? A superb conversation, but catalysing change in universities and the wider political landscape is a huge task.
According to historian Tom Holland, classical liberalism, dating back to the Greeks? He's said that view is historians looking back on history through our modern lense, and completely erroneous. Classical liberalism seems more the ideals of Locke, and JS Mill basic human rights, based in property rights. Synonymous with "God given rights". Whether we prefer the religious or secular venacular, the idea was spawned by Christianity. It needs Christian moral assumptions, and it's only maintained by our masses who hold to a moral authority that supercedes the state. Both Christians, and "classic liberals"who believe in basic human rights, uphold them. By hopefully giving any government authoritarianism the middle finger of non compliance. We used to be united, both right and left on this. I watched "atheism plus" infect the atheist community... now it's overtaken the left. Give Christians some credit, they've been an anchor, while both supposed "skeptical, critical, rational thinkers" and the left, were all duped in to radical relativism. The notion classical liberalism preceeded Christianity is absurd. If anything it's an unacknowledged denomination of Protestantism.
No one seems to read Max Weber anymore. His insights on the Protestant Ethic and it's impacts on the development of modern western society offer many insights into the impact of religion and more importantly religious based morality on the development of the modern state. There is some validity to the view that what Weber described as magical thinking, or how the world used to be interpreted, had never been completely displaced, but had been compartmentalized and is now reemergent in our societies, but uses the more powerful and efficient tools given of modern state structures, i.e. bureaucracies, powerful corporate interests, extensive and coordinated education systems.
@@donpietruk1517 I'll have to look into Max Weber. My perspective comes from delving into authoritarian thought reform tactics, and it was Christians who said I sounded like this guy Tom Holland, I'd never heard of. I've been groping for a way to distill into words, our traditional moral framework, "classical liberalism", or "basic human rights" seems to have come about through the interplay of Protestant morals, and the state. The 1st 'state' being the Catholic Church. Luther's reformation coincided with the Gutenberg press, soon after, Luther and the masses, thereafter had the moral authority to supercede the Catholic church (the state). Then the masses had the moral authority to supercede Luther's church, and the splintering into Christian sects began. Eventually what divided them, united them. A moral framework universalized into basic human rights. A moral authority which supercedes the state. As far as "magical thinking", it's still going strong in us atheists who've remained sane, untainted by marxist inspired feminism and social justice. Two things I've noticed in studying authoritarian brainwashing tactics, 1st our cultures traditional moral framework is mostly antithetical to them. Contrast the 1st amendment to the US constitution, it includes free speech, and freedom of assembly. #1 of Robert Lifton's 8, it includes censorship and control of association. But there's #5 of Lifton's 8, 'sacred science'. In short, an ideology, or aspects of it which is adverse to questions, or criticisms. It sounds secular, sane and normal in my culture to say, "How dare the state or anyone violate anothers basic human rights!" The secular is quite religious. That's me, a deeply religious man who doesn't believe in God... appealing to a sacred moral authority, higher than any state, or higher than any man, for that matter. All brainwashing does is rewire a persons moral framework away from their traditional culture's moral framework. It does so using the tactics Lifton outlined. Our traditional culture just happens to be anti authoritarian. Moral assumptions are both powerful, and subtle buggers. By definition they're assumed, taken for granted, taken as a given. "Self evident", is the words Jefferson used. We all experience morality as 'self evident', the woke should have made it obvious by now, they clearly are not self evident. Imo, it's through that 'self evident' lense Peter, and historians have looked back into ancient cultures, and seen things not really there. Which is unsurprising. Here we are, the sanest of us, still delusional af. Appealing to a sacred, higher moral authority above any the state, or any person... that we don't even believe exists. At least we're a hilarious species. Our magickal thinking will never vanish.
@@Andre_Louis_Moreau Weber's seminal work is The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. I would suggest that as a starting point. I need to unpack the rest of your post and digest it prior to giving any coherent or constructive thoughts on it. But there were some intriguing points upon my first go through.
Read this and learn boys You are both far to gentle and compassionate this is what The woke hv used as a Trojan horse to accomplish a Evil takeover toughen up buds listen to this brilliant man “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis
I like Chris, but statements like “I am only friends with people who I am aligned politically with” is ehhhhhhhhh I agree with him on many points. But this is verging on the same that insulates elitist lefties from bumping into any criticism and I don’t mean capital C Criticism.
Get a copy of Chris's New York Times Bestseller, "America's Cultural Revolution: How the Radical Left Conquered Everything": www.amazon.com/Americas-Cultural-Revolution-Conquered-Everything/dp/0063227533
Exactly how is woke nut Bakery more dangerous than the lunatic Maga ideology? Last I checked woke doofus's own the media but they don't own the courts that belongs to Maga sheep and Peter never points that out. We are far closer to death as a nation from the right then we are from the left right now. Why is this never pointed out.
I call foul on this he guy isn't about stopping a bad thing from happening this guy's about selling books and appealing to the lowest common denominator. It's a shame that you'd bring a sleaze bag like this on just because he opaquely lands on your side.
I teach in a school of education and psychology. There are 120 Democrat professors and 0 Republicans. (I’ve been independent since the Cold War ended.)
Yeah. One of my degrees is in Education. I'm no longer confident that diploma holds much value. I considered myself left-leaning til about 2012. In 2023 it's NEVER AGAIN.
@@laurasummers115 It’s embarrassing. Education has really lowered the bar. Some of my students are teachers from LA unified. They are my worst students. Nice people and they care about their students, but they want to be spoon fed. This is a Doctorate program. I would’ve gotten my Doctorate in business or leadership (My Doctorate is in Leadership but out of the Ed school) from a business school, but there weren’t any part time programs 25 years ago. I am near retirement now, so that ship has sailed. I am finishing up my 13 years teaching and retiring my 40 year aerospace career. It’s been good regardless.
My friend is a professor and he’s conservative. He cannot wait to retire and said it’s been extra bad the past 5-6 years in terms of things he can or cannot say on campus
I don’t see universities turning this around either. I mean, who would they ?
@@brianmeen2158 My University is not that way (yet). The professors are very nice. It wouldn’t surprise me if the new professors come in with that attitude. The Left infects and destroys the orgs that it takes over. We don’t need 40% of the Universities. Employers are picking up on the woke/victimization stuff. Headhunters are already telling candidates to take the pronouns off of their resumes. They’ve done a study showing the ones with pronouns get hired less than the ones that have them. So. There we go. Let the market make adjustments.
Man Peter please keep up these high level conversations! I could listen to you and your guest for hours. Great topics and conversations. Thank you!!
big time eh. i dont always agree but i always learn something from these conversations
It's clear that most people do not understand that racial equity is the OPPOSITE of racial equality. And that is VERY frustrating
No. It is in the name. Didn't you read it? It says equity! It says Black Lives Matter. It says People's Democratic Republic! UNITED States!
Yes and sadly you are going to waste a lot of time trying to get people to understand this. It shocks me the amount of people that hear “equity” and just clap and cheer as if it’s the same as equality
Yes. The only way to achieve equity is to treat people unequally.
@@central_scrutinizrThe remedy for past discrimination is current discrimination. The remedy for current discrimination is future discrimination. ☠️☠️☠️
Fantastic. I've been aware of Rufo for a while, and I'm still trying to work my way through everything he's saying, but what I enjoy about him is that he's fearless in the way that he critiques contemporary culture... and we need A LOT more of that. What I HOPE he's saying is that our academic establishment must embrace fact over ideology and, ultimately, find the truth no matter where it resides. If so, then yes... give us more Rufos. A lot more.
This has been my very first exposure to Mr Rufo - what a conversation! Loved it! What an entertaining, enlightening, courageous and informative discussion. Thanks to you both.
Thank you!
Two things you should teach your children 1/ To understand the difference between intelligence and wisdom... 2/ To have the ability to reject nihilism and anger the two main pathways that lead to degeneracy/self hate and cruelty
Anti woke Stuff I did so far:
Post freedom news.
I went to a school committee meeting and asked to replace their pride flag with an everyone flag. I shared the video of that.
I made a paper guide and gave it out.
I advertise Woke stuff my family and past friend do.
I voted republican for the first time.
I will think of some anti woke stuff I can do also. Great idea!
I prayed to God in giving thanks and praise for creating me as a masculine man.
Republicans are no kind of improvement. They oppress women, for instance, just as much as the woke do, they just do it from a different angle. They're just as willing to send your kids off to war, too.
What race did you vote R for and why?
@@MarkHWillson I voted R for all in Massachusetts. I think I ruled out most because I thought they supported fake elections by not having ID. I don't remember. Maybe they didn't support speech. I can be very liberal, but tend to be very conservative because they're bad at spending.
Sometimes I have to compromise on abortion. I strongly support abortion and eugenics. It should be legal until the fetus is a person >17 years old.
Chris and Peter making the rounds. On top of it.
Thanks
Thank you, Peter, for saying you don't understand things and asking for them to be explained - I'm sure you have a much better grasp than you are letting on in these conversations - but these in depth clarifications you elicit from your guests really help to put a solid foundation under concepts which would otherwise have to be taken on their authority. Unfortunately to combat the many bad ideas that are floating around us, those who challenge them, have been put in the position of having to defend both themselves and their ideas while navigating a labyrinth of cleverly worded pitfalls. One ill chosen word and any debate is derailed and will turn instantly into an inquisition. If however, it is possible to strike through with some argument, it is vital to know that it stands on something more than the substance of someone else's opinion. The target is not however the indoctrinated, they have looked into the abyss far too long, as ever, the target is the fence sitters in the audience.
@@Daodan1618 Thank you for your kind remarks.
I appreciate that. Thanks.
Excellent interviews, keep em coming! And please include some opposing viewpoints, these conversations are not impossible!
Absolutely. Please feel free to suggest possible guests!
@@drpeterboghossian Both of them at least had negative opinion of males in women's sports
Thanks for a wonderful video.
Important, timely and necessary!
Peter, I've heard you ask the question multiple times why certain people get hoodwinked hook, line and sinker and others don't. I'm sure you have reached your own conclusions in this regard. I think that it is a definitely a disposition of mild cynicism developed by people who almost have an innate propensity for observation and idea dissection. This is the core difference between somone who is gullible and someone who is constructively skeptical. This is what I used to think people meant when they would say "seeker" (although now I am sure they didn't). In my mind real seekers of truth know that they will always be on that path because they know that at any given time they could be proven wrong. Therefore none of their own identity becomes tied to their current conclusions or assumptions and they are extremely cautious not to become attached to any group think as the natural human need to belong will lock them into ideological structures that end up taking away their freedom of thought. Anyway I'm rambling on a bit so I'll leave it there.
Thanks for another great interview!
Thanks. I have speculations and not conclusions. I’d rather not say yet as I don’t want to bias future guests.
I have concluded the gullibility can be measured using the Big 5 personality test.
If you are high in Agreeableness and Openess you will go along to get along.
If you are low in Agreeableness, and high in Openess you will be open to and able to discern between a wide range of ideas.
The latter configuration tends to make you less active in the social realm (low in trait Agreeableness).
It's a rare combination of traits that will see much sense in pushing back or getting involved until the day the pitchforks and torches come for them.
Mr. Lewis, thank you for your extended reply. I tend to leave longer replies which means people don’t bother to read them. I find it more helpful to learn from others when they go into depth on their knowledge and viewpoints. I still need to ponder a little more what you had said. I think that a lot of the woke Crowd, social justice warriors, transgender activists and the people that believe in CRT, systemic racism and oppression are ideologically motivated to such an extent that even well documented fax cannot get them to even question their viewpoints.
Thomas Sowell does a really interesting discussion on what motivates people beliefs, especially progressives and others on the far left. I think it might be partly included in his talk called ‘the myth of economic inequality.’
You did kind of get off track a little bit towards the end but I get why Peter doesn’t want to come out firmly with his viewpoints despite the fact that most commentators and Podcasters are pretty clear where they stand. Apparently I can’t read the rest of your post without kicking myself out. That’s not usually a problem with making an original comment. Anyway, if you have any more insights please share bc at least some of us read longer texts and would and be interested in hearing your thoughts.
If I may give my thoughts.
I actually don’t think most people believe the things they are claiming as truth.
They have been taught you don’t need to agree but you need to respect other people, so wanting to be kind and on the “right side” they accept these ideas and theories and parrot the talking points. This is further reinforced by the group by ostracizing those who question part of the orthodoxy and most people just want to be accepted and in good social standing.
But I am certain most of the people we see in our daily lives do not fully believe it but they have been told they lack experience and expertise and therefore need to allow others to set the tone.
They are using historical atrocities as a parallel to what is happening now trying to show that people couldn’t see then the evils going on back then similarly to someone now who doesn’t fully get it and manipulating people into silence.
@@AndyJarman Hmmm. I'm high in agreeableness and openness. I'm also skeptical. It only means I'm REALLY struggling with how to interact with the cult members. I suspect my personality may be changing. Age, or adversity? I have more questions than conclusions.
First off, thank you Peter and Chris. You're both doing fantastic work in combating this lunacy. A couple of points if I may:
As an atheist, I found myself a little erked by the, in my view, tenouos link between woke ideology and the lack of belief in god. It is most definitely possible to be atheist and oppose this destructive ideology at the same time.
The Dawkins comparison between transubstantiation and trans is actually quite a good one. Both maintain that reality can literally change simply by incantation.
We’re glad you enjoyed our conversation!
As a former Catholic I actually made this connection before I heard Dawkins make it during that interview. But certainly having someone with Dawkins brilliance reaffirmed that I was on to something. I use this argument plus the much of the radical left is basically gnosticism argument when talking to some of my fellow atheists who have swung over to the atheist+ spectrum. So far I have one or two of them rethinking things. Many still refuse to engage me at all or say I have strayed onto some path leading me toward fanaticism. I was unaware that as an atheist I had signed on to a whole set of belief systems that had nothing to do with my position that there is no credible evidence for the existence of any god. It is interesting to me that I am finding more acceptance among my remaining religious friends than I do among those atheist friends with whom I have differences. I'm really still trying to process what that means.
I disagree with you on a lot Peter, but I very much respect your commitment to the pursuit of truth and open dialogue. And similarly, I want to go about reducing the number of things that I believe that are untrue, and increase the amount of things I believe that are true. I'd chat you up in good faith!
Thanks. I appreciate that. Ultimately it’s not about agreement or disagreement, but epistemology and discourse.
Brilliant convo. So many concepts and ideas became clearer. Thanks Peter and Chris. 🙏🏽
Our pleasure!
One thing I wish Peter would address with both Rufo and Lindsay, is the "groomer" rhetoric. It's actually hurting "regular" gays that have nothing to do with woke ideology or gender nonsense. Because it's used as a weapon like it was in the 80's and 90's when evangelicals and right wingers called ALL gays "groomers/pedophiles" etc. It took decades to get past that. Most people think of the word groomer as synonymous with pedophile. For people who think language is so important [Lindsay, Peter, Rufo], it's irresponsible not consider this ripple effect of "groomer".
It's not up to them, its up to the gay "community" who let these people into their ranks and either refuse or are too scared to call it out.
Look into Gays Against Groomers. They're pushing back against the indoctrination of children and are thusly being named "bigots" and right wing extremists.
And to say "right wingers" of the 90s and 80s called *all* gays groomers is incredibly disingenuous and to say it's somehow these mens duty to untarnish the representation of an entire community is just slimy. It's not their responsibility.
Blame the groomer activists who are trying to normalize sexuality with children, not the responsible adults who recognize their grooming behavior and call it out for what it is.
boo hoo. gays and lesbians have started fighting back and they better start fighting these freaks even harder. The woke have latched onto a lot of different groups and institutions and have ruined their reputation. It's not just the gay community that has suffered from the association with woke. The left has completely degraded itself by allowing these people to run their politics. .
Agree, groomer is an overused word by the anti woke like fascist, Nazi, genocide are overused words by the woke.
Quick: name 10 evangelicals/right wingers who said, quote “All gays are groomers/pedophiles”
Something that I don’t fully understand is why we have to define (for example) transgender medicine as a conservative or ‘progressive’ position.
Personally, I believe in science. You can have all of the plastic surgery in the world, but you can’t change your chromosomes. If you’re a guy with a beard, I don’t care if you say your name is Kayla - you’re a guy & you need to get the hell out of my spa, change room, etc. That said, it has nothing to do with religion. I was baptised Greek Orthodox, but it’s more cultural for me than specifically religious. I’m engaged to an atheist. That doesn’t change the facts of a matter.
It shouldn’t be a ‘conservative’ position to say, ‘sex is not a spectrum’ and ‘no, you can’t teach 5 year olds about gender, sex and trans people, nor is it appropriate to take children to have drag queen story time.’
My problem with Christopher Rufo in much of this conversation is his comment regarding not wanting ‘diverse opinions’ because the term is ‘loaded & puts my side at a disadvantage’. Really? I understand what he’s getting at, but as someone who is probably a bit left of center (in general) it seems like it’s tough to find common ground when you’re a classical liberal/liberal republican/right leaning democrat/whatever, we need to have conversations without making it specifically an ‘us vs. them’ type thing.
Don’t get me wrong - I believe we do *have* the common ground. Conversations like this show it! My genuine concern is that I don’t want (very) conservative schools or people to veer in the other direction so that we’re teaching kids the earth is only 6,000 years old, people lived side by side with dinosaurs & everything that happened in the bible is fact.
I attended a religious private school, but it was an independent prep school. We had theology, but fact was paramount. The fact that Rufo considers the Catholic Church, ‘liberal’, is genuinely bizarre. You can make that argument about individuals, but not about the Catholic Church itself.
There is no question that the so-called ‘progressives’ are anything but. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Rufo is really a person who is doing what he’s doing for the right reasons. People can believe in God & science while also not being religious in the church-going, bible reading sense. Humans & their behaviours are all nuanced. Wanting something to be true will not make it true. The ‘lived experience’ of 1 person does not necessarily make something a fact. Someone who can teach a class and be objective in presenting facts & invite students to question them & one another & keep a genuinely open dialogue and learning should be the goal.
A ‘noble vision’ is subjective. Much as I agree with the fact that we need to get rid of the insanity that is capturing institutions & return it to a free marketplace of ideas & curiosity, Rufo’s language comes across as someone who may well make the situation in to a war of religions - the religions of The Woke vs. Evangelical Christian types.
There is a lot of nonsense in America right now. Unfortunately, I am finding Rufo’s ideas and commentary to be almost banal & uninspired because of the point society has reached.
To Peter, I’d love to discuss beliefs with you as someone who has never been sucked in to the nonsense of CRT, gender ideology, etc. You’d probably be surprised because one of my traits is actually ironic re the gender ideology. I’m not trans, but I do have Asperger’s. Most wouldn’t be able to tell unless I’ve told them, but I’d love to expand on that.
I am glad you are using your platform to reach a large variety of people.
I tried to get at that in this conversation. Since when are facts conservative or liberal?
I don’t believe they are. I thought you did a wonderful job on trying to put forth that POV. I really hope that we can eventually get to a point where the majority of people can take facts for what they are: facts. No mess, no more.
I think the value sets on both sides(far left vs center right) are so far apart at this point that I’m afraid there is no happy medium . I think if the more liberal center left stepped up and pushed the far left out then it could work but not until so .
Btw I like Rufo but I understand why people may not. I am honestly not sure what I think of his methods though and heavy handed approach (getting rid of DEI etc) but I look around and fail to see other fixes or solutions. ..?The time for debate is over as that should have happened decades ago - CRT and gender ideologies are already in the system and tbh Rufo is the only one that seems to want to get rid of it. I’ve heard some on the liberal or center left say they don’t agree with these ideologies yet don’t seem to have any desire(or ability) to push them out of the institutions .. they seem
Petrified of the far left
@@brianmeen2158 I agree that other people need to be hired. My idea would be the legal avenue of actually filing law suits against the public schools that force this kind of stuff. Why? They aren’t presenting a debate if actions are taken against dissenting voices. Every time people start these insane pile-ons in attempt to ruin someone’s life, sue them for harassment. Sue for wrongful termination. People need to fight back. I’m not opposed to getting rid of DEI - I don’t believe it furthers anything & in the 50 years after MLK’s protests, race relations were generally good until all of this nonsense began.
I fully admit that a big part of the problem are the moderates like myself, or even the liberals who just feel there’s no harm in indulging a delusion. By not pushing back, ignoring what’s happening & in some cases, joining the pile on because they think they should, the problem gets worse.
What’s difficult (isn’t it always?) is finding the middle ground. In that respect, I can say that I hope Rufo is successful in bringing multiple people from different backgrounds & who hold different ideas, together. Do I believe it’s likely? No. I worry that it’s almost inevitable that he will end up with another echo chamber. I hope I’ll be wrong!
One thing I think we all agree on: we need to get the majority of society to come back to reality. The current situation is utterly untenable.
Yes! Take Back the Institutions!!
I just toured a Christian University in Texas, with the hopes it may have the one non-woke psych program for me to help balance out the “all gender-affirming care” counselors
I found that the graduate school psych professors post their pronouns and they have a DEI dept.
I am So disappointed.
I was musing over it, not long before this talk, that maybe I still could go and be the voice of reason among them, not afraid to call professors out on BS- just as I did in undergrad before.
If you’re recruiting, sign me up! It’s Kismet. ❤
@@brianmeen2158 They’re obviously intentionally infiltrating our Christian Universities, as it is a war move.
We can Still Fight Back!
Laying down and taking it is what makes them believe you’re okay with it, so they keep going further.
Now one of my favourite podcasts.
My 2 problems with Chris's arguments are as follows.
1) He puts forward the argument against equity succinctly and seems to understand this, but then he proposes that there should be a set number of conservatives installed into academic institutions using the arguments for equity.
2) Under the banner of states rights he argues that it is correct for California to subject their children who believe they are Trans, to surgical interventions. This is not a conservative position (for people who believe in objective morality) or a morally defensible position. If you believe in universal human rights and believe this surgery is immoral, then you must believe that children have the right to be protected from adults who are their carers that plan to do them harm.
When he meets contradictory positions he seems to arbitrarily choose one over the other rather than this causing him to question the foundations of his beliefs and how he came to these contradictory positions, and I think that is the difference between an activist such as him and a true academic such as Peter.
This should be required watching for all Americans.
Matt Dillahunty was someone I really looked up to in the atheist community, but unfortunately he fell to the woke mind virus. rip Matt
Matt was always woke. I find it funny how some people refused to see that. I heard about the guy 10-15ish years ago, and he was woke as a, well, something that is very woke.
@@txdmska big can of mountain dew? Or a bucket of strong coffee?
I remember when I was hanging around the Atheist online community (just out of curiosity, I'm not an atheist myself) and it was such a surreal experience to see the religion of Wokeness seeming to spontaneously erupt from within, and to quickly take root, and then to devour the community and turn it into "Atheism Plus."
But in retrospect, there had been Wokeish atheists even in the beginning; they just weren't as blatant until they'd gotten a firm grip on the community, and essentially destroyed it.
They really are like a virus. "The Virus of Critical Social Justice" is one of James' videos that finally showed me how it had happened. . . they WANT to be like virions: they compare themselves FAVORABLY to Ebola, HIV, and SARS; and they compare conservatives to an immune system.
@@zxyatiywariii8
Yeah. As a member of those old atheist communities it was sad and shocking to see that happen. Weirdly enough, the thing happened globally everywhere to local groups too, not just in the online community. I think once a group becomes populous enough there will eventually be cancerous cells that turn the whole thing into a big fat tumour. The cancer might be feminism, or anti-racism, but usually the whole woke thing. And it usually starts with female members starting to reach a critical mass.
This woke cancer took over pretty much every community. Movies, TV shows, gaming, nerd stuff, hell even tech and science.
The problem is that fighting it leads to social and professional s--cide.
(many) Atheists are radical Protestants who ditched God but kept everything else
(Primarily following the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes)
Peter you've inspired me to read Chris' book. Wow. I have a stack of as-yet unread books to dive into. While we may have a long way to go, I'm heartened by the growing number of voices of reason getting their ideas out there. Thanks for your work which is a part of the catalyst!!!
Wonderful!
Thank you for making this easy to understand!!!!
Chris is one of the most important and influential men in the US if not the world today.
More like NoWhiteGuilt is
Good discussion Peter! You might want to get Thaddeus Russell on your show - he’s a former professor with interesting views on academia .
Best podcast I’ve heard today!! Enlightening perspectives. Thanks guys
Our pleasure!
I love that Peter managed to work in a Deep Space 9 reference - and a very apt one at that! 😂
Equity = equality of outcome (irrespective of inputs). That means, for example, that those cultures that privilege education and hard work cannot gain more from the system than those culture that do not value those elements; it means that a reward system in a company is deemed ‘inequitable’ if the outcome is that women are paid less than men, irrespective of the jobs they choose to do, levels of seniority they aspire to, and the career choices they make: leaving to have children, for instance. A country based on these principles would soon decay: people would be appointed not on merit but to fulfil equality of outcome quotas and there would be no incentive for people to aspire to do better through hard work and education as the fruits of their work would be redistributed to others who might not merit them. Productively would plummet, incompetence would be rife, and the best and most motivated would be discouraged. The enemies of the West would rejoice.
People that are woke, how many of them used to be religious and then became atheist.
And people who never buy into the woke culture - how many where never religious?
Rufo is right in his characterization of Biden regarding all the DEI stuff. To put it another way, Glen Loury calls Biden an avatar for the left. That's about as concise as it gets.
I don't hate Biden, because he's just a tool and an old man. He's not a terrible person or president. But if he does run again--which it seems he intends to--and is not adequately challenged for the nom, then I will not vote for him this time around. Last time around, I voted against Trump. But I have to add that assuming that Trump does get the nom, I won't vote for him either. I'll write in a candidate. I hate this effing WOKE virus, and see it as a threat to democracy, but so do I see Trump as a threat. Both are forms of authoritarianism that must be defeated. But I don't see this happening, actually. One way or other, I think that we are being inexorably drawn towards one chasm or another, after which the outcome remains very uncertain.
The next decade or less may determine whether we survive as a nation in the context of democratic principles. I'm not optimistic.
Agree. I was classic liberal and now find myself independent. I can’t support the left anymore, but Trump and Trumpists are just the flip side of the same coin as Woke. Both sides now only care about absolute power. It’s fascism vs. Stalinism all over again. Rational people are now caught between a rock and a hard place.
Trump isn't authoritarian in the slightest. It boggles my mind that you can recognise the dangers of this neo Marxist ideology, but somehow equate Trump as being equally dangerous. Crazy.
Yes this. I agree Biden is an empty vessel. Very much the "Manchurian Candidate" if you will. People think that the assassin was the candidate, the point of the film, but he was only the tool (read social activists)through which the candidate could ascend to power and the agenda be pushed. Biden has always blown with the wind and sought power by going along with the prevailing ideology. Trump was born into power and privilege. He loves exercising it for the benefit of his family and personal gain. He is the danger of populist authoritarianism that is easy to fall into. He sees the problems with the left but he fails to understand the dangers he himself poses. Nor does he convey any understanding of the boundaries between personal power and executive power. Both of them are shrewd in many ways. Neither of them is actually very intelligent or self aware. If all we get is a rehash of the previous election like you I cannot vote for either of them.
Ok please explain how in what way is Trump authoritarian?
@@juggernautnation369 This could probably be characterized as one of those situations where if you have to even ask such a question, you'll never know the answer--no matter what I or anyone else says or writes to try and convince you.
Plenty of authoritarian leaders of the past and present came to power because of people like you, because you and your kind don't see them in such a light. That's as much as I will comment on this.
Thanks for this conversation!
Is there any way we can see some of the answers to the survey/poll questions you asked ? (Aside from what was shown during the live )
I’m curious to see all the answers.
Thank you for watching! I will look into if there is a way to share poll results in the future.
Okay, there is a bit that is getting missed in the talk about Locke. It is not a choice of Florida vs California and if you don't like what got elected in California you can get up and leave. Locke tells you what happens when the government fails or otherwise breaks the social contract. The people can kick out the government and replace it with one that better reflects the will of the people.
There is also a hard limit on what citizens can tolerate from government. Government may not decide to do wicked and evil things and mutilate or murder the citizens. That breaks the social contract by breaching natural law. By breaching your innate right to defend yourself.
If you want the Bible reference to make sense of that if you are a (conservative) Christian it's in the Old Testament. If someone is coming to kill you, get up early, kill them first.
Chris rUFO 👽👽👽
Hearing things like "I go to a conservative gym" blows my mind. I can't believe how divided this country is..
I've never heard that, but if it's true, I'm not surprised. It's just awful. I don't know how we survive this trend.
Totally agree that it's insane that politicians don't know the difference betwen equity and equality.
How does Rufo consider the Catholic church liberal? Protestantism created the pathway toward Liberalism, but in either case religion is antithetical to science and reason, the cornerstones of the Enlightenment principles upon which America is founded. I agree wholeheartedly the Left has gone insane, but to push back with another irrational ideology makes me nervous! Turns all this into the kind of religious wars of European history.
Also, the Human natural questions need to be more nuanced. Psychologically yes, and we should and we do. Physical nature I'm much more doubtful and very cautious.
James Lindsay said the same thing.
His solution is we need both logic and faith.
Faith keeps logic humble and logic keeps faith grounded.
Religion is inevitable.
Science is just our dumb dumb way of trying to understand Gods creation. The idea you can’t understand and accept the foundation of both is odd.
@@1SpicyMeataball I agree with Lindsay that MOST people need faith in a mythic narrative in their PERSONAL lives (for psychological reasons) and on the social level, but I think it's a dangerous path for politics and law -- just as it would be for the STEM fields. Any scientist worth his salt is familiar with his own ignorance AND knows science is the best bulwark against emotion driven confirmation bias -- humility is baked into the scientific method. Evidence based epistemology is a must in the weightier concrete facts of existence.
I think the answer to Peters question of why some people are more gullible than others has got to do with the way they were raised as children. If they were strongly exposed to and influenced by religion then they are more likely to accept an idea or belief based on emotion rather than on evidence.
I literally thought the exact opposite.
Thx
I loved the question about why some people have no problem accepting all this nonsense. I can’t believe the ‘smart’ people I know who just accept these ideas as truth.
What ideas?
@@MoonshineH All the woke ideas. Some people I know don’t ask what the ideas mean, what is the history, are the ideas based on truths and common sense? Accept nothing even if the majority are espousing the ideas. “ The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” Marcus Aurelius (121-180 AD)
@@Kitchener10 "Woke" ideas like what, for example?
Because some people are simply nor that smart. People generally don't like to point that out. We have no problem saying Dawkins is brilliant. And admitting most of us aren't as smart. But we can't admit that the sane comparison exists at a lower tier.
They’re not just teaching nonsense they’re teaching a mental disorder or colleges and universities
Excellent questions. I wonder as well why people are becoming believers of illogical things.
I'm learning history in order to figure this out.
Identity politics leads them there. Because ID politics leads to cultures of cronyism and grift -they invent illogical things to justify their grift and cronyism.
The west is being economically eclipsed by former client states (China). Consequently the redistribution of wealth can no longer be afforded. Politicians are casting about for free stuff to throw at the crowds.
Puritanical abhorrence comes free and can't (prima facie) be criticised.
Off topic but related, we have the same type of problem in medicine. There’s a medical ideology surrounding treatment plans that says the doctor is the authoritarian and any questioning of that authority is disallowed, especially regarding vaccination of all children, at all times in every situation. If you dion’t you’re kicked out of their practice. Physicians who have refused to become the red guard for the health regulatory institutions are paralyzed with fear to speak against it.
I love street epistemology. 2020 my mind was set free
I suspect that everyone holds some beliefs that could be described as religious. People like Dawkins usually have a strong (pseudo-religious) value system that doesn't depend on supernatural beliefs but still holds the positions within their heads that traditionally religious beliefs hold in traditional believers' heads. The problem arises when lazy thinkers abandon traditional religious beliefs and they have no strong critical thinking skills to prevent the woke group-think from taking hold. The cure is teaching critical thinking to small children.
So critical trace theory pushes some people down, rather than lifting people up? It seems pretty negative and now I am required to feel guilt for putting effort into my life? Have I got it right?
What were really saying is universities and colleges have stopped teaching facts, and truth that is secondary
People who succumb to Woke lack courage then there's the blackmail. The upper class have licenses they can lose.
Woke language games, often with double meanings. Please add.
Decolonisation (taking the post war, decolonising processes when they are really taking about Fannon's psychic possession theory)
Abolition (taking Fred Douglass abolishing of slavery when they are talking about ending police and prisons in a racial frame)
Diversity, equity, inclusion. (All obvious)
Gender affirming care - really, sex negating mutilation
Sex assigned at birth
Public employees do not have First Amendment Rights while executing their duties. Public schools cannot teach anything they want in the same way that Kim Davis, the Kentucky country clerk, did not have the right to not issue a same sex marriage license because of her religious beliefs.
Thank you so much for sharing this, Peter.
My pleasure!
15:00 Classical liberalism is a very vague term
Not really, it just means courts should be impartial to all claimants, including the Crown
Peter. I can only imagine your x students reaction to the Socratic method. Love you.
i like christophers optimism, but it's undeniably over for liberal arts faculties in colleges in terms of overturning ideological capture, it's here to stay. i don't see any horseshoe effect occurring and the implications this has had on the institutions these students have been employed in has undeniably also reinforced this. interesting conversation though, enjoyed it.
I like Rufos persistence as well but I see it like you do - CRT and other ideologies are pretty much infested in most Institutions at this point . Rufo might be able to push it back in a few select schools in Florida but I fail to see how that will have any effect on the bigger picture? Props to Peter for starting a new university but I struggle seeing that have any type of noticeable effect either. You will have one school(which will be slandered endlessly by mainstream media and other institutions) going up against thousands of others that push this ideology out daily. Even if by some miracle we could completely eliminate the teaching of this ideology in all schools starting tomorrow - you still have multiple generations of indoctrinated students spreading it pretty much everywhere.
Rufos action needed to happen 20 years ago if not longer. In
This type of situation the only way to win is to get rid of the infection immediately - you can’t let it infect every segment of society and then try to step in and correct it. It’s just too late by then
I think lack of transparency in any institution is what's so detrimental. Also the way algorithms are feeding the binary tribalism through suggestion, ads and sponsorhips.
Replacing wokeness with conservatism is NOT the answer.
We need a balance. The best ideas.
Exactly. Although it would be an upgrade.
I didn't hear that considered as a solution. I heard the problem is universities who have evolved into political institutions grooming a predominant radical ideologies that members of both main political parties recognize as the opposite of fundamental principles of free discourse and free debate by weak administrators & faculty who fear DEI officers who have become totalitarians.
Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't hear a solution to the problem.
I heard a civil discussion by two intelligent men whom I assume disagree on some or perhaps many political issues but DO AGREE on the fundamental problem in current academia and are both searching for a solution.
I believe if Americans and our elected leaders could remember how to have such civil discourse on important issues of the day, maybe vwe could save America. Not only Americans, but the world needs a strong, free America.
We were once a moral compass other countries were influenced by. We're quickly becoming seen as imperialist bullies recklessly heading towards WW3.
I don't believe this new woke identity politics that cancels people, censors what the gatekeepers judge to be "misinformation" and commits public reputation lynchings of those whom they most fear...men also regarded as respected experts in their professions but who disgree with the narrative of the Biden administration.
We hear African American scholars and elected leaders called Uncle Toms, RFK Jr.'s name is always preceded by Radical anti vaxer, madman and now an anti semite. Author J.K. Rowlings is a transpobe, etc. , etc. MATT Taibbi is ridiculed. Enough!
I am a 59 yr. old half Tuscarora half white American who has voted both ways.
I don't hate Biden or Trump. I don't get what happened to the country I love.
I don't know what happened to the legacy press.
I have 2 graduate degrees and I tell you, I do not understand what happened.
Supporting controlled BORDERS gets u called a racist but I heard the Mayor of NYC FINALLY cry out for border control in a speech in last couple days...Now that his city is overrun with people crossing illegally, he finally gets what the governors of border states have been talking about. They weren't being racist, they were being realists.
The Chaos is now here. I pray it's not too late to save the America I loved, the one who defended individual freedom against government totalitarianism.
Anyways, sorry I went off course.
My point is we need to get back to discussing & debating ideas and stop the bullying and divisive tactics used by totalitarian governments before we become one.
Thanks
@@lumbeejojonativedaughterdi9770 try using paragraphs - you'll find people will read your comments then.
Karl Popper addressed the propensity for liberalism to be taken advantage of (the paradox of tolerance). However, progressivism has no limitations within it unless conservatives are involved in the debate about merits.
Conservatives tend to act as little more than a break on progress, but there is an argument that they may have insight into the hidden merits of tradition and habit.
I can’t wait to read this book!
I love Peter, and I'm actually reading Rufo's book (which is frequently inaccurate.) I'm sort of with Rufo anyway as far as cultural controls. But Tucker and Trump are much too far to the right. The proper position is in the center. I'd like to see us move toward social democracy, but at the political-economic level-- hands off controlling individuals. Equality not equity.
"Woke" is the long-term danger (check any elite campus for left-fascism.) But right-fascism is the current short-term danger.
I don't get the "no-mask" bullshit. If he likes the guy with the revolver, maybe he can enlist.
great talk, thanks gents.
Academia is controlled by powerful centres depending on the subject (Bordieux). Put the conservative professors there. BYU is also a conservative instituion.
I wanted to watch this but found the audio and video quality quite poor.
I think the answer to Peter’s other question about why some people just accept a narrative and others don’t has to do with their neurological underpinnings. Most people are linear thinkers and a small minority of people just aren’t. To understand this, one could use the Myers Briggs ‘personality’ assessment as a guide. It’s not really about personality, which is a result of neurology -> personality is down stream of the way your brain is wired. Anyway, neuro-divergent people don’t think in terms of going from point A to point B to point C. It doesn’t mean they can’t think linearly, they can. It’s just not their primary function, in Myers Briggs terms. They tend to think non-linearly through intuition - which is a subconscious collection of information that comes in from all directions through a variety of channels and then gets processed. Linear thinkers, when they’re standing at point A are looking/waiting for something labeled point B. Non-linear thinkers are considering point B… among many destinations, they don’t just jump to point B because someone told them over there is point B. As a matter of fact, non-linear thinkers don’t even label the points - they consider labeling points to be totally arbitrary. Even if the point labels make sense and are valid most of the time, neuro-divergent people don’t think linearly. So they just see point labels as a popularity contest. Sometimes people and things are popular for good reason, and sometimes they’re not. We don’t actually live in an age where popularity’s generally built on sound assessments of value. Just saying. And non-linear thinkers are the first to notice that. P.S. I personally am dyslexic. My brain doesn’t recognize point B as the next logical step from point A. We literally have difficulty alphabetizing. Not kidding. We actually have to stop and think about what comes next in the sequence even if we know, we don’t know. Yep, we have to sing the little alphabet jingle in our heads. We can’t tell our Right from our Left either. Again, we HAVE TO stop and think every time. Call them natural neurological roadblocks that keep us from jumping to conclusions, or being easily lead somewhere. These are stumbling blocks that are widely recognized; but I am sure there are dozens of others that exist subconsciously. That’s what makes us non-linear thinkers. Kind of like being gay, no one would choose to make life more difficult and no one really thinks it’s fun to be out of sync with the rest of society. One may be used to it and even come to embrace it, but when you are a kid you freakin hate it. Society is not pleased to welcome the neuro-divergent (that’s Woke bs) . It has to be some organic glitchy thing. P.P.S. The first time I really considered that I don’t think linearly came up when I realized I tend to think metaphorically as opposed to literally. When it comes to words, I often get lost in all the nuanced meanings and don’t notice then something is meant literally. Most people don’t have the considerations of multiple meanings as a problem. They have no problems stepping to point B which is the literal meaning. Some people stay there. They have the opposite problems from people like myself, it the other end of the neurological spectrum (autism) - they get stuck on literal meanings.
Please use paragraphs to help the reader
@@jonnysongs Feel free to skip my posts if they are too much trouble for you. Trust me I don't mind not hearing from you - since you didn't actual offer anything of substance - that I couldn't get from a 1st grade teacher's pet. If that's the only comment you could come up with based on what I wrote, believe me I won't be missing anything. And while we're doling out advice, I'd recommend a course in manners for you. You are very rude.
@@jonnysongs You're like those annoying jerks who endlessly complain about sound quality on TH-cam video. Jeepers crow, you're getting something for free that someone else put work into putting out, so shut the freak up. You might want to focus on the actual ideas and forgo nit-picking the punctuation - just a though. Pretend for a minute the ideas actual matter more than punctuation. How about I give you a butt load of punchy little paragraphs tailored just for you. lol.
@@jonnysongs This is my round about way of expressing my real thought which starts with 'F' and ends with 'you'. Next time stick to responding to the content of the comment and not the form, or better yet just mind your own business! No one needs a grammar teacher.
@@jonnysongs And for the record, nitpicking punctuation instead of grappling with the ideas presented doesn't come across as smart. It's actually the height of childish ignorance - you don't grasp what's important. And if you don't like the deluge of responses you received from me, GOOD! I hope you think twice before you chime in again. The last thing the free exchange of ideas on the Internet needs is the freakin grammar police! Anything that makes people afraid to speak up is the real problem, especially niggling critiques about form.
40:06 what follows here is exactly what they said in the EPATH conference in Killarney April 2023 - the evidence didn't catch up with the practice to trans people and see happy outcomes!
Dawkins stayed sane. But PZ Myers went deep. Dillahunty and Seth Andrews lean woke. Aron Ra seems to have fallen for transism.
"FIRE is a net negative" - Chris Rufo
You heard first here folks !
@drpeterboghossian Love that DS9 drop. For Picard Season 3(only season of it i watched) i really thought the reveal in Jacks mind was going to be related to the Pah-wraiths (evil prophets from that wormhole). Just in case you havent seen Picard season 3, which you really should, i dont want to spoil it but the writer.and showrunner for that season nailed it.
Just like this interview. Cheers.
I watched maybe half of Picard S01. Went into it hopeful, but it immediately turned out that the cancer that is wokism has metastized in that show. Pure. Fucking. Hubris. Atrociously bad writing. I'm also thinking about skipping the rest of S01 and S02 and just watching the last season.
@d3st88 highly recommend it. You don't need to watch season 1 or 2 in order to get 3
@@BattleDamageProps
Thanks, man. You know what.. I'll download and start watching while working this weekend.
On the question of why some people succumb to ideologies and some don't, I have a theory! Only a theory of course, but..
It seems to me that some people are naturally sceptical and some people have a tendancy to latch onto ideology.
In the Atheist movement I suspect that there is a correlation between the atheists who used to be full-on believers, who subsequently adopted wokeness, and the atheists who were never really religious, not doing so.
I would love for someone to study this!
What I have observed. This is why atheists in countries like the US, where evangelicals are the majority, atheists are more prone to switch from Evangelical to woke. From one extreme to the next extrem.
@oliverhug3 Yeah, I was wondering if that might be the case alright. Would be interesting to see a US/UK comparison on this.
Bernie Sanders wasn't ignorant to the equity/equality question.... he was lying.
Oh my
Christopher choked on the last, loaded, question: "Are you against gay people?" He should have said, "What do you mean against?"
We need to create a human-centered ecology.
The threat from Trump and Maga thinking is far greater than the threat from woke ideology at the moment. Encouraging people to vote for conservatives right now is suicidal at least if you value Democratic elections and the Constitution. I don't understand why Peter seems to be pushing people in that destructive path without ever making caveats.
Hey, I'm with you... but.. under this bill which ensures that teachers stick with the curriculum, do they teach that dinosaurs walked the earth 6 thousand years ago?
I'm addicted to your channel😅
YES, DS9 shout out at 21:21 !!!
Love Rufo but there's no way to contact him even for a science project that would help the prestige of his college. The staff and board of directors are useless.
People aren't immune to indoctrination, but some people, who are skeptics, are very resilient to indoctrination because their mind basically knows no overton window. They may accept others overton window however, so they will probably abide from playing devils advocate for shunned topics in public for self-preservation reasons.
But if you wanted to test that theory, you could do a study and ask people to play devils advocate for an indefensible ideology. The skeptics I'm talking about would, given enough time, be able to argue as the devil, but "normal" people would at best be able to argue very, very weakly, because they literally can't put themselves into the perspective of others.
Peter is unfamiliar with the verse " bend like the reeds in the wind" And, who the Prince of the Air is.
I can't say I've watched this video yet but I have to say the title sounds disingenuous.
If the radical left has conquered everything how come I'm still living in a capitalist society?
The radical left has really dropped the ball if that is the case. Almost as if corporations pay lip service to certain ideas because they believe having pride flags makes them look progressive when the hard reality is everything is judged on the bottom line.
I am sceptical of some identity politics, and trans ideology I believe to be outrageously harmful and a massive blindspot for the left but to suggest the USA or western society in general has been taken over by radical leftist ideology just sounds patently at odds with reality.
Fascism:
When I can't scream "f*ck" in a room full of first graders ;)
Peter you are doing the Lord's Work, hahahaha!
Is there a schedule for these? I always miss them, but never seem to see them as upcoming in my subs.
Not for the livestreams, no. The SSE videos and interview are one each per week.
The balkanisering of California would be immoral for you do not only leave them to their own devices but the many innocent children will be the victim of the unmitigated chaos.
As long as we are 'affirming' the gender/sex a person was at birth, affirming someone's gender is fine by me- but only then.
Why are some people immune? Disposition, character, values...etc.
Be more specific. What disposition? What character? What vale’s?
@@drpeterboghossian the disposition towards courage and curiosity, and in holding to values in an environment were others values may be diametrically opossed. I do believe that people are born with certain characteristics and certainly pick those.up from the people in their environment. Some people may pick up boldness and others, like the young people in our universities, may pick up conformity. So this complex dynamic of innate and conditioned characteristics. I think curiosity is important. I feel that it is mostly innate but can be cultivated as well.
Some people need to belong to a group and to always be with people and to always be talking. Some don't and like to think by themselves.
About group think and why people join mass delusions? Interview Mattias Desmet about Mass Formation. Also Read Delusion and Mass Delusion by Meerloo
I’m happy to have a conversation with him. Reach out and ask him to contact me if he’s interested.
1:12:00 I was a Security Policeman in the AF (back when dinosaurs walked the Earth). When I was on duty I could be court marshaled for sang Good Morning to someone walking by. Reason, AF Regs. stated I was Not to speak to anyone except In The Line Of Duty. Now this is obviously an Extreme example and as far as I know it never happened...But it could.
If you are in the military the Bill of Rights May Not always apply to you.
Opening a journal is not that difficult if it is online and diamond open access. I think. I have seen a few open access journals being started, and now a couple of diamond open access are in the way. With a few big names among the editors they seem to start off quite well. And if that's an open access journal, you don't need to convince libraries of anything. If the journal is self managed and doesn't have a big pool of people doing small useless edits to enhance appearance, it would probably be ok to run even with help of a small conservative donor. Getting 1000 profs hired would probably be more difficult...
I love these conversations. James Lindsay, Jordan Peterson etc. Very helpful and educational. The irony is I believe ultimate truth is found in the Biblical God. So it's interesting how much I agree with, and how many of these ideas align with the Bible.🙂
Why bring God as creator into this discussion on sex and gender?
Not a great argument that we should respect evidence when someone acts like "God said so!" Is an argument I should give a shit about.
Are these entrenched views linked to people with psychopathic personalities? A superb conversation, but catalysing change in universities and the wider political landscape is a huge task.
Meanwhile no one can pass a polygraph test per AEC protocol
28:00 the anti-Henry Giroux
According to historian Tom Holland, classical liberalism, dating back to the Greeks? He's said that view is historians looking back on history through our modern lense, and completely erroneous.
Classical liberalism seems more the ideals of Locke, and JS Mill basic human rights, based in property rights. Synonymous with "God given rights".
Whether we prefer the religious or secular venacular, the idea was spawned by Christianity. It needs Christian moral assumptions, and it's only maintained by our masses who hold to a moral authority that supercedes the state. Both Christians, and "classic liberals"who believe in basic human rights, uphold them.
By hopefully giving any government authoritarianism the middle finger of non compliance.
We used to be united, both right and left on this. I watched "atheism plus" infect the atheist community... now it's overtaken the left.
Give Christians some credit, they've been an anchor, while both supposed "skeptical, critical, rational thinkers" and the left, were all duped in to radical relativism.
The notion classical liberalism preceeded Christianity is absurd. If anything it's an unacknowledged denomination of Protestantism.
No one seems to read Max Weber anymore. His insights on the Protestant Ethic and it's impacts on the development of modern western society offer many insights into the impact of religion and more importantly religious based morality on the development of the modern state. There is some validity to the view that what Weber described as magical thinking, or how the world used to be interpreted, had never been completely displaced, but had been compartmentalized and is now reemergent in our societies, but uses the more powerful and efficient tools given of modern state structures, i.e. bureaucracies, powerful corporate interests, extensive and coordinated education systems.
@@donpietruk1517 I'll have to look into Max Weber. My perspective comes from delving into authoritarian thought reform tactics, and it was Christians who said I sounded like this guy Tom Holland, I'd never heard of.
I've been groping for a way to distill into words, our traditional moral framework, "classical liberalism", or "basic human rights" seems to have come about through the interplay of Protestant morals, and the state. The 1st 'state' being the Catholic Church.
Luther's reformation coincided with the Gutenberg press, soon after, Luther and the masses, thereafter had the moral authority to supercede the Catholic church (the state). Then the masses had the moral authority to supercede Luther's church, and the splintering into Christian sects began. Eventually what divided them, united them. A moral framework universalized into basic human rights. A moral authority which supercedes the state.
As far as "magical thinking", it's still going strong in us atheists who've remained sane, untainted by marxist inspired feminism and social justice.
Two things I've noticed in studying authoritarian brainwashing tactics, 1st our cultures traditional moral framework is mostly antithetical to them. Contrast the 1st amendment to the US constitution, it includes free speech, and freedom of assembly. #1 of Robert Lifton's 8, it includes censorship and control of association.
But there's #5 of Lifton's 8, 'sacred science'. In short, an ideology, or aspects of it which is adverse to questions, or criticisms. It sounds secular, sane and normal in my culture to say, "How dare the state or anyone violate anothers basic human rights!" The secular is quite religious. That's me, a deeply religious man who doesn't believe in God... appealing to a sacred moral authority, higher than any state, or higher than any man, for that matter.
All brainwashing does is rewire a persons moral framework away from their traditional culture's moral framework. It does so using the tactics Lifton outlined. Our traditional culture just happens to be anti authoritarian.
Moral assumptions are both powerful, and subtle buggers. By definition they're assumed, taken for granted, taken as a given. "Self evident", is the words Jefferson used. We all experience morality as 'self evident', the woke should have made it obvious by now, they clearly are not self evident.
Imo, it's through that 'self evident' lense Peter, and historians have looked back into ancient cultures, and seen things not really there.
Which is unsurprising. Here we are, the sanest of us, still delusional af. Appealing to a sacred, higher moral authority above any the state, or any person... that we don't even believe exists.
At least we're a hilarious species. Our magickal thinking will never vanish.
@@Andre_Louis_Moreau Weber's seminal work is The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. I would suggest that as a starting point. I need to unpack the rest of your post and digest it prior to giving any coherent or constructive thoughts on it. But there were some intriguing points upon my first go through.
Sound was poor quality on this one, Pete. Other than that, good conversation.
Read this and learn boys You are both far to gentle and compassionate this is what The woke hv used as a Trojan horse to accomplish a Evil takeover toughen up buds listen to this brilliant man
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
C.S. Lewis
I like Chris, but statements like “I am only friends with people who I am aligned politically with” is ehhhhhhhhh
I agree with him on many points. But this is verging on the same that insulates elitist lefties from bumping into any criticism and I don’t mean capital C Criticism.
To repeat Replacing wokness with conservatism is not the answer