Top 3 Rules Violations | Would You Even Be Able to Spot Them?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- We play a game of Magic with a twist! Carl is going to break the rules at some point. If Thoralf can't spot it, he loses the game. How well do you know MTG rules?
Find all the rules refered to here: bit.ly/3jzx9Fz
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Find all the rules referred to here: bit.ly/3jzx9Fz
I suppose I have no choice but to believe the rulings, but from what I recall, Gather rulings aren't binding per-se, but rather they are just applications of the comp rules.
If this wasn't the case, then there would have been a period of time when Melek, Izzet Paragon would have been able to play lands from your library like Oracle of mul daya(there was an error in the gatherer rulings)
Is there something in the comp rules that explains the library of leng ruling?
If gather
Judge! Carl should have taken 2 damage for each creature that entered Thoralf's field while Purphoros was out
I honestly thought for a moment that this is the violation
also I believe thoralf could've sacrificed any of his creatures to simply make purphoros an illegal target by not being a creature, which isn't a violation but another thing worth noting
Thoralf also forgot to deal excess damage to any target. 😛
@@tuxxle8830 wrong red god card
@@talamran7499 Like the Monopoly rule of you being able to not ask for rent.
So glad someone else spotted this, also thought this was the violation haha
He couldn't cast the soul herder in the 1st rules violation no? He had a U/W land, a G/B land, and an elvish mystic
That'd have been a pretty good bait, if intentional. Play out LoL to make it look like that is the funky rule interaction, when the real misplay was a lack of specific colors.
The puzzle planned with a Noble Hierarch and somehow we switched it for an elvish mystic last minute and did not realize the implication on that turn 😅 there are a lot of moving parts in these videos and not a lot of time, so some mistakes slip through the cracks
@@CardmarketMagic No worries! Still loved the video :)
@@CardmarketMagic Judge!
people not having the right colors to cast is such an overlooked thing! good find
This is one of my favorite series.
1. Weird cards you rarely see
2. Weird interactions you rarely see
3. Fun to play along with
4. How difficult it is to trick Toffel
Very interesting about the Library of Leng. I thought "discard" implied that the card would be present in the graveyard, if only for an instant, and thus become public information. Like how drawing multiple cards while under a "play with top card of library revealed" effect reveals all drawn cards.
But no, apparently you can discard directly to zones other than the graveyard, which is pretty neat!
LoL has had rules made just for that card 😅 card design at the time was quite chaotic
Madness also makes you discard straight into exile (though that’s face up, since exile is a public zone)
Respect to you boys for setting up scenarios like this, it's gotta be a nightmare with all the fakeout plays and timing the draws and getting the exact sequencing of events down to make puzzles like this happen. I saw some people in the comments mentioning a couple of minor mistakes but it's seriously impressive you can organise these complex sequences with even that few mistakes.
Thank you for noticing the crazy amount of work that goes into these :) I appreciate it
The exact rule for the connive thing:
701.8c. If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card's characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 729, "Handling Illegal Actions").
This rule exists specifically because of Library Of Leng
Also, I think that the intended rules violation that would end scenario 1 was: Discarding a card to Trade Routes to the top of the library doesn’t work. Library Of Leng specifically works with effects, and the Trade Routes discard is a cost.
Ideas for a future episode, TORALF DON’T READ THIS
Green Sun Zenith for Grist with Grafdigger Cage in play. (This is legal)
Thespian Stage copying Urza’s Saga. In response to 3rd chapter, tap Sensei Divining Top and copy a dual land with Stage. Fail to find an artifact. Later, Blood Moon enters play. The dual land can still make constructs.
Pyroblast targeting an indestructible land with Dress Down and Painters Servant in play. Legal but does nothing since the land is not blue.
Force Of Vigor pitch cast targeting Mycosynth Lattice. Illegal because cards in hand are colorless.
Time Stop splicing Everdream. You draw a card anyway.
Helm Of Obedience can mill past Progenitus without it counting as milling a creature.
Phyrexian Revoker can legally name “dredge”, since there is a card with that name.
Runed Halo naming Illusion doesn’t stop illusion tokens due to a rules change.
You can’t cast Squee The Immortal from under Ixalan’s Binding due to a rules change.
Two Stadard Bearers in play. Artificial Evolution targeting one of them turning it into a Bird lightning rod. Opponent can target either of them. (601.2c.)
Leyline Of The Void doesn’t stop death triggers from tokens.
If Dryad Arbor is suspended with the card Suspend, you get to play it from suspend. Can’t attack with it cuz it doesn’t have haste. (I suggest using an attack if able card.) Go to second main, play a land, rules violation because you already played a land.
Dress Down makes dashed creature lose haste, but they still return to hand anyway.
Cleric Class reanimation checks toughness in graveyard, but Reanimate checks mv in play (matters for clones). Because the card rulings say so, no cr.
You cannot do the KCI thing if you’re casting a 0 mana spell.
@@theemathas I think you have the Cleric Class/Reanimate examples backwards.
@@L_O_V_E_L_A_I_N Oops, yeah. My bad.
Thank you for the explanation!
I was very confused as to why the Judge call was illegal - in my mind he could've called a judge just to verify that the card on top of the deck was indeed a nonland. But the ruling that a card discarded as "hidden" simply has no defined values makes sense!
You were spot on in guessing the rule I was planning on stumping Thoralf with! Also, thank you for all the suggestions! That's a wonderful source to pick from for the next videos! :D you have no idea how hard these are for me to make so I truly truly truly appreciate the help!!
That first scenario was really tricky and actually got me. I'd love to see more like this!
1: Carl's hand is actively not shown to Thoralf, this shows that there are in fact cards Thoralf doesn't know about in the scenarios.
2: A card was placed face up in the library by Carl.
3: There is no boundary put in place between Carl the player and Carl the narrator's visible actions. There was never one placed in any of the rules saying as much.
4: Carl the player has revealed the card by placing it face up on his library. Thus, Thoralf the player would visibly see and know what's happened.
5: Thoralf's player points at the face-up card for the judge.
Additionally: "Outside of showing you like an idiot, and that's not within the rules" Nope, showing your cards like an idiot is completely legal in Magic funny enough (see 3.12 Hidden Information, starting at 'However').
Outside of Magic, if it was illegal in this puzzle, it was never stated until this moment. Ex post facto, Thoralf should not be counted out.
Essentially: The rules for this need further fleshing out. Too many assumptions and unstated facts. Thoralf is looking at a face up card, and there was nothing ever saying he wouldn't explicitly see a face up card.
@@paninisauce6949 As a puzzle your opponent could have Library of Leng and a Dryad Arbor, but no cards in hand. Where you could have Waste Not and play something like Dinrova Horror, targeting the Dryad Arbor.
The opponent discards to top of the deck. The question is what Waste Not is doing.
In this scenario there is only one card that could be discarded. It is known. But still it would be from and to a hidden zone. (Hence, Waste Not does nothing)
Edit: You could up the difficulty by adding Field of Dreams to the mix. Waste not would still not do anything.
Edit2: Dinrova... not Ninrova
In the third game, Purphoros didn't deal damage when other creatures entered. So when Thoralf passed at the 14 minute mark he should have lost...
? A judge wouldn’t give a game loss for that, especially with it not providing him with an advantage
@@tristanclark288 Not lose the game Commander but lose the game shown in the video where he’s trying to spot rules violations
Yeah we missed that. These are really hard to set up perfectly as there are so many moving parts. But, as Tristan Clark said, that is not a broken rule, it's a missed trigger :)
As a scenario and a learning experience, Thoralf should have sacrifed any one of his creatures to Altar of Dementia with Rite on the stack. Devotion would drop and Purphoros would have stopped being a creature, making the targets illegal and the spell would fizzle.
I recognize this is just a pre-planned scenario to test knowledge but it can also be a teaching moment for anyone who did not know you could do this :)
I was just checking if anyone mentioned that in the comments lol.
I'd love to see y'all play Judge's Tower some time, it's all the fun of rules interactions but without having to write any specific scenarios
We just recorded that 😎 it's on it's way
@@CardmarketMagic YES! Finally the best casual format out there getting some publicity! =)
Judge! On the 3rd round, some Purphoros triggers were missed and Rites of Replication has UU in it. Lastly I was thinking of calling Thoralf for slowplay but it was commander so he get a pass.
We missed the purphoros triggers in the end as there was a lot going on 😅 it's hard to set up games like this. Luckily, if both of us miss a trigger, it's actually not considered "breaking the rules" in the same way as actually playing a card differently as it's text implies. It would be quite boring if the solution to the game was "I didn't make you deal 2 with that purphoros" ;)
@@CardmarketMagic no damage done here. Fun content made me subscribe and very little mistakes are also good so we the audience can interact with you guys. Keep up the good work and really, keep these and even the bloopers.
I've got an interaction for you that screwed me when a rules-wiser friend pointed out the order of operations to me.
I self-milled to zero cards in library. I had an enchantment (or creature) on the board that made me draw a card whenever I cast a creature spell.
I cast Laboratory Maniac, thinking it'd hit the battlefield, I'd draw from my empty library, and I'd win.
However, my draw effect triggered When you CAST a creature spell, making me draw while the Maniac was still on the stack, the effect not yet in play, and it killed me.
I was ready for the effect vs cost thing with lol and trade routes, but got got by the connive thing the same! Great job with this video
The visuals and digitised gameplay was amazing in this video. Really clear what was going on. I'd love to see more content creators doing this
You should do the classic crazy interaction: Selvala, Explorer Returned being used to cast a Panglacial Wurm during a deck search, while only having 4 lands untapped.
Technically speaking, a legal play, just a really sketch one.
@@Dracomandriuthus The illegal part would be attempting to cast it with Selvala when it can't possibly generate enough mana, I've edited my original comment to reflect that.
I love how Panglacial Wurm isn’t the biggest issue in its craziest interaction.
We love the Panglacial Wurm trap! But Thoralf knows it well already, I'd never be able to fool him with it
A fun thing to try with Library of Leng and the previous interaction would be an effect that makes the top card of a library permanently visible to all player.
I honestly have no clue if this changes the interaction outlined it this video though. But it would make the problem even more confusing.
Love the content! Keep it up! Glad to have the team back from break/vacation
It is actually possible for a token to deal commander damage!
CR 903.3c: "If a player's commander is a component of a merged permanent, the resulting merged permanent is that player's commander." (mutate merges permanents)
CR 726.2d: "If a merged permanent contains a token, the resulting permanent is a token only if the topmost component is a token."
The easiest way for this to happen is to have Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief as your commander and mutate onto another creature.
It's more accurate to say "Copies of commanders aren't commanders", especially as it encompasses copies that aren't tokens, like Body Double.
I would just like to appreciate how much time and care was put into this video, as with channel as a whole. They are always doing their best to get better, even though it’s already incredibly well made and high quality.
Game 1: Elvish mystic, seachrome cosat and blooming marsh can't produce 1WU
Game 2: Thoralf does not lose game to thought scour
Game 3: Commander damage is only from combat damage and copies are not commanders.
Maybe you guys can use it for this because I actually don't know the answer. I found something online, but a local organizer told me there were graveyard changes and it no longer works. Basically, I want to make a commander deck with Zethi and in trying to find cards that give an extra turn, I found the only blue instant is Nexus of Fate. Problem is, Nexus of Fate can't go to the graveyard due to it's replacement effect, if it would go to the graveyard it gets shuffled into the deck instead. I found something that said if you used Tezzeret Cruel Machinist's ultimate to turn it into a face down 5/5 creature and then kill it, it goes to the graveyard without it's replacement effect triggering because by the time it's face up again, it's already in the graveyard. I was told by my local organizer this no longer works because of some changes they made but I don't really know which ones he's referring to.
If you don't understand the end-game it would just be get Nexus of Fate into the Graveyard, Exile with a kick counter via Zethi, when Zethi attacks you get to make a copy of exiled cards with kick counters and can cast the copy. As stated, I don't know if this works or not and I want to make a Zethi Commander deck either way but would be good to get more insight.
Anyone know definitively?
Man, this is not an easy question! I've been scouring the comprehensive rules and come up with the following:
Tezzeret's ability puts Nexus on to the field face down as a 5/5 with no abilities.
When the face-down nexus dies, it checks to see if it has any abilities that would affect its move to the graveyard, but sees none, as it has no abilities.
Result: Nexus of Fate will remain in the graveyard until acted on by something else, such as Zethi.
As for other ways to achieve the same result, if you can manipulate the top of your deck, you can manifest the top card with a variety of effects. You can also try animating your instant into a creature and then making it lose all abilities (e.g. with Humble or Ixidron)
Source:
708.2.
Face-down spells and face-down permanents have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the spell or permanent to be face down. Any listed characteristics are the copiable values of that object’s characteristics.
400.6.
If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. [...] Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. [...]
614.4.
Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs-they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
I really love this approach. Almost reminds me of the chess puzzles my grandpa used to do with me.
Speaking off, you could vary this challenge with pre-made game states with obscure interactions and do a thing like 'And now, win in three turns', like an actual chess puzzle. May be easier to set up and keeps you from having to come up with new obscure traps every time.
We actually tried your suggestion already! It was filmed yesterday and should be coming out next Thursday :D
here's a couple funny commander ones:
have the commander and a couple other creatures in play. play ixidron to flip everything face down, hit him with your facedown commander for commander damage.
5C sisay commander. use her ability to cheat a legend, opponent casts containment priest in response. you get a theros god without enough devotion (it doesn't get exiled), later, you activate the world tree to cheat a bunch of gods into play. they don't get exiled because they didn't have enough devotion before entering the battlefield (example, 4 red on field, purphoros enters, he doesn't get exiled) HOWEVER, you do deal purphoros damage for each god that entered that becomes a creature due to the devotion of the other gods (example, you have 3 green and 3 red devotion already in play, purphoros, nylea and klothys enter at the same time. containment priest will not banish any of them, BUT, purphoros will see nylea and klothys entering the battlefield as creatures and deal 4 damage. add the mistake wherever you want, it might be not dealing the damage for example.
i play that second one, you have NO IDEA how many jank scenarios i've pulled and i always have to explain it!
another weird one. you have thespian stage in play. your opponent plays song of the dryads on your commander (let's use Sythis, who is a creature enchantment). you use your new forest commander to activate thespian stage, copying the commander since it is now a land. it becomes a copy of your commander. nothing happens. your opponent then plays something that destroys all enchantments. the thespian stage and the song of the dryads get destroyed, but your commander lives since it was a land. but not so fast, your opponent follows up with imprisoned in the moon to turn it once again into a land. so during your turn, you play vesuva, which enters as a copy of your commander. and pass the turn.
the catch here is that song of the dryads turns your commander into a forest, but imprisoned in the moon just turns it into a land, so it's still legendary in the second case, and it still has the name "sythis". so after the vesuva copies it, you have to sacrifice one of the two (preferably the land one so you get access to it in the command zone again!)
Also, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all of the purphoroses Carl copied would enter the battlefield as enchantments and become creatures only AFTER hitting the battlefield, due to its continuous effect. This is because the replacement effect of the Theros god that can cause it to enter the battlefield as a creature checks for the board state BEFORE it etbs. If Carl had 5 devotion to red before the copies entered his side of the field, then yes, every purphuros would see the other 4 as a creature entering the field and cause 8 damage, but since they were not, no damage is caused.
Not only on the third game purphoros didn't do damage when creatures ETB but also rite of replication couldn't be cast with those lands in play. It was a good video anyway with curious interactions and weird ruling, gj!
Right? As far as I know, Purphoros doesn't really see other creatures entering the battlefield since the five entered at the same time.
@@Lorhelei Purphoros's damage ability is triggered. In general, triggered abilities are checked after an event occurs. There's a list of exceptions, the most common being dies or leaves the battlefield triggers. But enters the battlefield isn't one of them. So multiple objects entering the battlefield simultaneously can trigger each other.
Mutate has a plethora of weird interactions. Mutating onto a theros god while it is a creature and then losing the required devotion can cause the mutate/god pile to cease being a creature and becomes a typeless permanent.
You can also end up with a creature with loyalty abilities by mutating onto a planeswalker made a creature by luxior.
I have an Ivy deck and use mutate quite often as it makes Ivy lose the legendary supertype so I can then copy it. The looks on people’s faces when I tell them that the copies are all just one creature but have all the abilities and P/T of the mutated Ivy
Also, even if the token commanders did have commander status, they would all deal separate commander damage, since commander damage is tracked per-player, per-commander. So you would have like 5 different counts of 8 commander damage from different commanders. (The main way this would normally come up is if you had partner commanders, they have separate commander damage counts. Also, if you steal someone's commander, it's commander damage will be independent from your own commander's commander damage.)
13:32 thats a very good catch that he can't put the card on top, because discarding is part of the cost of cycling, and costs are not considered "effects" by the game rules
There's a few confusing rules interactions you could use with the differences between Lier, Disciple of the Drowned and Past in Flames. The main difference is that Lier allows you to cast the instant/sorcery from the backside of MDFCs and the Adventure side of adventure creatures, and you can then even cast the adventure creatures from exile. This is not possible with Past in Flames for weird reasons that the Past in Flames effect is not a static effect like Lier and therefore does not affect the spells that are only sometimes instants/sorceries.
This is a great suggestion! :D thank you!
Rule violation nr.1
1:04 you've drawn a hand before deciding who goes first.
3:53 Casting soulherder without having the correct colors of mana...
The worm that can be played while searching a deck is great for weird rule interactions, especially with the GW slyvala. Also using silver borderd cards could be cool!
That last one reminds me of a scenario in an old Windmill Slam video.
You cast a Precursor Golem and resolve its ETB trigger. Then you cast a kicked Rite of Replication targeting Precursor Golem. After that resolves, you cast another kicked Rite of Replication targeting Precursor Golem. How many Golems are on the battlefield after it's all done?
I don't remember the answer, but it's something rather ridiculous. When I saw Rite of Replication here I was expecting a much tougher challenge.
It's just 108. The copies of rite aren't cast, they're placed on the stack so it doesn't trigger the golems second ability
@@abbygaleforcewind This is true, but each Precursor Golem also makes more Golem tokens and will also trigger separately off the second kicked Rite of Replication, copying it multiple times. If my math is correct, this will result in 161 Precursor Golems and 992 Golem tokens for a total of 1153 Golems if you target a Precursor Golem with the second Rite, and 186 Precursor Golems and 1017 Golem tokens for a total of 1203 Golems if you target a Golem token with the second Rite. I could be off though, this isn't easy.
I found the original video I was talking about if you or anyone else wants to see it. It's at about 17 minutes in /watch?v=11BEE8dYkNk.
In the first Scenario, what happens if you discard cards to the top of your deck but you have something like "Future Sight" in play? Would you get the counters because your opponent sees whether you discard lands or spells?
And also, if you discard multiple cards on top of your deck, does your opponent know all of them, or just the top one? If they know all of them, do they also know their order?
Very interesting and weird interaction 😅
Good thing is we have a judge in our friend group. So we can even call "judge" on our home events. But tbh 99% of the time we call him to ask if we understood our own card correctly to prevent going against the rules and not bc of real rule violation. Also if you happen to know a judge, ask them "what is the craziest rule interaction you know" you will get some crazy stories
I just love the battlefield graphics. Good job editing this, just marvelous.
I can't imagine tracking all the moving pieces that go into these episodes but kudos to you all for doing such a good job!
Thank you for noticing the effort I put into these :)
my favorite interaction is the fact that a morphed commander still deals commander damage so if you have 19 points of commander damage and then ixidron comes out and flips it face down it will still deal the last 2 to give the 21 commander damage
That's a good one!
Nice mini animations, they spices things up a notch- the third scenario was something else 🤣
Commenting before watching - if it wasn't here, I hope you do one based on the interaction between Pir, Imaginative Rascal + Doubling Season + any Planeswalker's + loyalty ability. Because Pir changes the *cost* of putting the counters using the + loyalty to an *effect,* this WOULD cause Doubling Season's replacement to apply.
This could be either as the correct answer or as a great trip-up (a real thing happening that looks like a rules violation).
If you did it here, yay great and awesome. If not, maybe next time : )
That's awesome!
That's a great suggestion! 😃 thank you. I'll put it on the list for future videos
That's a cool way to teach rules that might be confusing or just unfamiliar to newer players.
In scenario one, Thoralf committed a rules violation. He tapped a blooming marsh, elvish mystic, and seachrome coast for a soulhearder. That doesn’t have the ability make both blue and white mana paying for soulhearder.
I had originally planned the scenario with a noble hierarch, but forgot to bring it and used an Elvish Mystic instead. I did not realize the implications at the time 😅you'll have to forgive me
A recent one I had to clarify to someone is trample+ damage multiplication. IE trample creature with double damage effect on the board and how much actually tramples over to the player.
You know, this was actually pretty useful. There is a guy in my playgroup that uses library of lang and Raffine. I'll point out this ruling next time it comes up.
Glad some use fan come out of this! :D
wasnt it already a violation when rite of replication was cast? there was only one blue mana source. 3 swamps, 1 mountain, 4 forests, 1 island
a rules interaction I had this weekend at a commander game was very interesting and I wonder if it would fit well here!
3 players,, I am playing Ghave aristocrats, player 2 is playing orignal Atraxa infect theme, and my 3rd opponent is playing 'slogurk the overslime'.
I have a 'branching evolution' and 'Winding constrictor', 'hardened scales', annointed procession, and 'Scurry oak' on the field.
Opponent 2 has atraxa, blightbelly rat, and blighted agent and hits me with blighted agent for 2 poison. Winding constrictor doubled those put on me. They then proliferate both my and opp 3 poison and pass.
Opponent 3 has slogurk out, plays 'vorinclex monstrous raider' and passes.
I go to play a 'mikaeus the unhallowed' and trigger the scurry oaks evolve. Do I put on 0 +1/+1 counters? 2 of them, 4 of them? This is the tricky part, because the active played chooses the order to apply the effects in. So I stack it 1 + 1(hardende scaled) then half that with vorinclex back to 1, then double and double again to 4, and make 4 squirrels, and pass.
Opponent 2 swings with blighted agent and player 3 and the rat at myself. I block with squirrels to kill the rat. The proliferate from the rat and the 1 poison from blighted agent put ZERO poison on anyone. atraxa proliferates for zero thanks to vorniclex as well. This really turned off that players deck!
It was interesting to see how we could resolve the counter create/place/replacement interactions!
This is some of the most cool and creative MTG content out there. Like chess puzzles with our favourite game. I just want more!
Thank you! :D
"very good feedback...you learn something, you apply it instantly"
How very german lol, he sounds exactly like one of my old maths professors!
I flubbed on the first one same way Thoralf did, but did get the other two. Glad that I watched this, since I'm considering playing a Library of Leng in one of my commander decks and would definitely have played it wrong!
Options:
Activating monstrosity while already monstrous
Activating simic fluxmage targeting an illusion with no counters
Lifelink + rain of gore
Cloning a clone which has an extra ability
Commander damage if your commander is part of a mutate pile
Waiting for blockers to be ordered, then using a combat trick (how this works is the main rule I would want to change about magic)
Banding. Seriously, it's not that complicated.
Bands with other. If you get banding, this one is pretty similar.
Casting panglacial wurm using mana from selvala or a chromatic sphere
Lightning bolt a wandering fumarole in response to activating it
Discard alchemist's greeting to hand size on a creature that was already damaged, or had a giant growth.
Intervening iff with evolve.
Try to stifle toxic.
Mirage mirror copies dark imposter and exiles something, then Kaho and tries to cast it.
Willbender a krosan grip
Thank you! :D these are great suggestions!
Wait how did you cast a soul herder with an elvish mistic, a blooming marsh and a seachromo coast ?
JUUUUDGE
The puzzle was originally planned with a noble hierarch, but we could not find one on the moment and then simply missed that it didn't work when you cast soul herder 😅 we were too busy thinking of actual game rules
I loike these episodes so much!
Did you catch though that for a Rite of Replication you typically need 2 islands? I think you guys were one short.
Loved it anyway :)
Please play Judge Tower in a future video!
We are recording that tomorrow! :D
@@CardmarketMagic Hype!
@@CardmarketMagic Oh god I'm so excited!
These videos are awesome! Thanks for all the effort it takes to make these!
About the 5 Carl's Purphoros in game 3 ending: their ETB still triggers, even if they get sacrificed, but doesn't they enter all as enchantments due to devotion mechanics? I remember that, if the 5 devotion is checked only after the fifth "devotee" enters the battlefield, they become a creature only after they "settle" in the battlefield, entering as an enchantment that becomes a creature only after 🤔
Karl: “Welcome to Commander”
Toffel: *resigned grimace*
😅 Commander rules are something else
love the new visuals ! the editing team did a great job
What a fun video! You guys should set up a gauntlet for Thoralf... A Commander game and each other player has a bunch of complex interactions, and each player commits 1 rule violation. Thoralf has to name each violation before the turn is passed back to him! Include a Shahrazad for extra LOL's! :D
Appreciate the great content, as always.
This would be really fun, but you can't imagine how much time I put into a 1v1 version of these 😅 if I did a commander one, I'd have to stop posting videos for a week just to do the setup
Absolutely love the content guys, this thing in particular. It's interesting to see such a pro doing it
Really cool video, loved all 3 puzzles as always!
Hahaha unfortunately, humility interactions are thoralf's favourite puzzle 😅 I'll never get him with that
For a future episode: Attractions from Unfinity are legal in Legacy. If the were put into a graveyard, they go to your command zone instead, therefore making them the only cards in that format that can actually go to that zone.
What 🤯
So a fun ruling that has came up for me is the double etb with the new norn with ommath and sagas as ommath will get life and 4 mana off 1 land and sagas don't get double counters as they are a trigger ability
Not sure if you've done this rules violation, but its one of my favs to explain. I won't say what the ruling is incase people who are not familiar with the card want to figure it out :) But I will leave a common scenario below:
(We assume all mana and pre-set up is available):
Player will cast and resolve a Sphinx of the Second Sun (Probably enough said, lol) during Main Phase 1.
Player proceeds through combat and combat steps and enters Main Phase two with an extra beginning phase.
Player untaps, resolves upkeep, then draws a card. Proceeding now with Main Phase two, the player now casts the card they just drew, then proceeds to move to end step and pass turn.
The beginning phase doesn't happen right after combat, but as player moves to pass to end step, before the beginning of the end phase, correct?
@@leandromafe yep! It primes at the beginning of MP2, but resolves after MP2
Rules idea- Teferis ageless insight and senseis divining top, do you draw the top with the second draw from insight?
Not even mad that he got me with the LoL... okay, maybe a little mad 😂, but mostly amused. Well done!
As a judge, I wish there were more of these types of spot the violation videos out there. Though, it'd be nice if there was less interruption of "oh, I thought I had you!" when Thoralf gets it right and less Commander-y situations.
These take me days and consulting with multiple judges to plan, please allow me the "Oh I thought I had you" ;)
@@CardmarketMagic Oh I know how tough they can be! I'll take them all in one discussion at the end of each test? There's no suspense playing a long if viewers are immediately told that isn't the issue.
I often have interesting interactions come up with cascade triggers, would be great to see interesting interactions that might need judge calls
Carl couldn’t have cast the Rite of Replication in the last game, right? He only has one island in play
That is correct. Second color requirement mistake besides soul herder haha.
But srsly, these are rly minor considering the complexity of these puzzles
Lol.
Judge! In game one, thoralf either had blue or white mana, because he only had the one land that taps for one or the other, not both. Due to this, he had no way to cast the soulherder.
Judge! Thoralf hasn't been dealing purphuros damage all game!
Thoroughly enjoyed the video! More, pls
Carl's look in the first scenario where he got thoralf 🔥🔥🔥
You should play Judges Tower at some point
We will actually be recording judge tower tomorrow!
Carl, if you want some tricky things, I recommend, Trinisphere. Both how it interacts with taxing effects like Thalia, cost reductions from like the Immortal Sun or Hinata (Trinisphere checks last) or stuff like Delve (exiling pays for the cost, you can still cast your treasure cruise for 1 blue if you exile 7 cards from your graveyard). Also, the CMC of the spells remains, even if trinisphere forces you to pay more for a spell. (Also, please double check me, here, but this is how I *think* this works, I'm not a judge though)
We already did trinisphere when we did the quiz with Spice 8 Rack :D I won't be able to fool him with it twice
@@CardmarketMagic I didn't remember that. A more general recommendation is to look for judge test questions online, but you are probably already doing that
the editing team killed it with this one
Mimic Vat with commander is always fun to think about how that rules works. I also prefer when there are more pieces on the battlefield and less the stakes such as game over (like the mill out one this video) since they contestant will always call a judge if they are about to die.
I didn't think Thoralf would make it all the way to the mill part 😅 these videos are hard to set up
Love these videos! I always learn something. Apparently I have been reading Library of Leng wrong for years.
They have worded it in 3 different ways depending on the edition, so I guess you are not the only one who had been reading it wrong ;)
this is such a cool format!!
please do this again
maybe the other way around??
also why did you animate the board instead of using the camera? I thought it was quite smooth and worked well this way, but I kinda like the feel of seeing real cards.
I made the board animated to have the opportunity to make the cards seemingly blow up big on the screen seamlessly. It was a choice that I now realize was very expensive time-wise 😅
Two things I notice in Commander games.
People have issues with Goad, let's say Player 1 Goaded 2 of P2's creatures, P3 has Planeswalker out, and P3 and P4 each have Propaganda out. Who do the Goaded creatures attack? Is P2 forced to pay for P3's or P4's tax? Can they attack P1 at all? Can they actually attack P3s PW? Or creature just doesn't attack?
(Goaded creature has to attack, but controller is never forced to pay taxes to attack, even if they can. So it wouldn't attack neither P3 nor P4 directly. So since Goad says a) "Goaded creature has to attack each combat if able" b) "and a player other than you if able", b is considered nulled, since creatures aren't able to attack P3 or P4, at this point P2's creatures can actually attack P1 freely, or P3's PW freely without paying a tax (since Propaganda only taxes creature attacking player directly, not PWs they control). So let's say P2 sends one creature at P1 and one at P3's PW and kills the PW. Next turn P1 plays Propaganda (or Ghostly Prison, w/e) of their own, Goads P2's creatures again, and when P2's turn comes around, no PWs on the board, what then? Creature wouldn't be forced to attack either, since again... player is never forced to pay the tax, unless they want to. Also there's always an option of tapping your own creature instead of attacking, which some players forget too lol)
2nd thing is Wild Pair, most people that run it in the deck, put some mana dorks/ramp, maybe a tutor for Wild Pair, and majority of creatures with same Power and Toughness, while it's fun to pull out almost anything from your deck when you cast almost any creature in the deck, they don't need to have same Power and Toughness, but same total P/T, so with 5/7, you can get 6/6, 7/5, 8/4, 0/12 out too. But I'm guessing this wouldn't make for a good test, since one just needs to properly read WP and notice the word "total". lol
But how does WP work with +1/+1 counters, */* P/Ts, how about Clones? Essence of the Wild? Mystic Reflection?
2:48 JUDGE! The mana sources Thoralf has available can't make the 1WU mana cost for Soulherder, there was only one land that could make white or blue.
Try attacking with a god that is equipped. During combat the defending player flickers another attacking creature, temporarily breaking devotion. What happens? Is the god still attacking? Does it still have equipment? I remember the answers are yes, no, but I don't remember why.
Wow that's a great one! But I'll have to consult a judge because I don't know why either 😅
I don't think that Thorlaf would be felt 40 damage in that scenario, because copies of Purphoros would not enter as a creatures. It's subtle and I'm not 100% sure it's the way it works, but I believe that whether they enter as creatures is decided before are on the battlefield so the devotion to red is 0 and they aren't considered creatures.
I remember that back in Theros-RTR standard there was a weird interaction between gods and Imposing Sovering that depended on this rule.
The Purphoros would still trigger, the rules interaction you're thinking of only applies to replacement effects that effect creatures, etb effects are handled differently and do see the creature as it is on the battlefield. (See the article 'Gods, 4 devotion, and evolve.')
Some ideas for next video:
Sylvan library and dredge cards. Don't have to pay 4 life for each of the extra 'drawn' dredges.
Another interaction that is probably simpler is flickering fiend hunter to permanently exile a creature.
Thoralf is an actual magic judge so I won't get him with the Fiend hunter one, but I love the sylvan library and dredge idea! 😃 thank you!
2:56 is also a rules violation. Thoralf casted Soulherder which has mana cost 1wu with 2 green sources and a white/blue source. He didn't have the correct mana.
In this case it's not a rules violation or part of the game. We simply couldn't find a bords of paradise and replaced it with with an Elvish Mystic, not realizing it impacted the video. But you succesfully caught a bug in production :P
@3:10 he cast Soulhorder illegally. So yeah he lost within the first 3 minutes
We had planned to have a noble hierarch there and lost it, and did not realize the implications of replacing it with an Elvish Mystic 😅 but in all seriousness, I'd be kind of ashamed it I had made the solution to that puzzle as boring as just tapping the wrong lands ;)
A good one to stump Thoralf with would be, in a hypothetical game where the card 1996 World Champion is legal, would you be able to fail to find the card when searching?
I believe the game rules don't look at the cards' actual scarcity, so you could indeed fail to find it :) but I'd have to confirm with a judge
I only have cards from ravnica, I remember having rite of replication on my mono blue control deck and my friends all hated me cause my win con was stalling until I got 5 copies of some broken monster with that card
whole deck was counters, tapping enhancements, artifacts like briber's purse, some spells like sleep, and flying monsters, it was so much fun
actually had smth simlar to the second rules interaction happen in a modern tournament, i was on prison tron and had possessed portal out which makes everyone skip draws and my opponent was on mill, he could not win as his only copy of otawara was on the battlefield lol
I love games that end in such unusual and weird ways :) truly a gem
Purphuros dealing 2 damage is not commander damage if you stole it or if Thoralf damaged you with his ability. Commander damage is only combat damage.
Another good violation using library of leng would be discarding a card as part of a cost to the top of your library. It doesn't work because a cost is not an effect.
Interested if Throalf would get the scenario right where a creature dies and there's a Valentin and Nemata (or Kalitas) on the battlefield. Probably yes, but it still feels super unintuitive to me.
I know that I'm a bit late, but for the last scenario when you have the tokens of purphoros enter they still enter one at a time as legendary as they are copies. Since they enter one at a time your devotion to red never goes to 5 so there are no creatures that enter the battlefield since he is not a creature without devotion 5 to red. Let me know if I got this wrong or not.
Otherwise great videos I've been watching so many of them recently as I get back into Magic :)
Magic rules are weird 😅 so it's very normal not to understand this interaction, but they technically all enter at the same time, and then the triggers go on the stack in order. Checking for double legendaries is a state based effect, meaning first they deal damage for entering, then you check for state based actions like sacrificing legendary permanents . Happy you are enjoying our content :)
-C
Could have used the altar to sacrifice seasoned pyromancer to make purphoros not a creature and stopped it from being copied...but I get that it is a set scenario
It would've been nice if in your explanation for the second game you had explained that "milling" card is different from "drawing" cards, and you only lose when you're forced to "draw" and there are no cards. Since Thought Scour makes you mill cards rather than draw, there was no game loss.
You kinda said this, but not so explicitly that it was a little hard to follow when you started talking about Abundance instead.
honestly in game 3 toffel misplayed by not sacrificing purphoros to altar of dementia in order to fizzle the rite of replication. smh
The 3rd Scenario, Thoralf could have just sacced a creature to the Altar in response to the Rite to fizzle the Rite because the devotion drops, right?
He could, but that's not the point of this game :)
More videos like this please. This series is fun
Not a rules violation but game 3, sac the purphoros to the Altar of dementia in response to the Rite of replication.
If we were trying to play optimally, we wouldn't be playing most of these cards to begin with 😅
I called the last one the moment I saw it
It's a common mistake, but if effect damage was commander damage nekusar would be banned along with niv
An awesome source of puzzles were those in the inquest. They were like those chess puzzles
Really love this step by step torture Carl is doing here.
Maybe do them with one player after the other and cut their interaction together. Maybe it works
The would be a great idea for the editing :) I'll try that in the next one
maybe u could do one with Zealous Conscripts and Obeka, Brute Cronologist? many made the mistake in deck building but because it’s a “until end of turn” effect and not a “at the beginning of the next end step” Obeka would not let you keep the creature. there’s also some cards say “at end of turn” which now means end step, but could be confused with “until end of turn” effects!
there’s just a lot of unique interactions you can do with Obeka so maybe including her in one of them could be cool :)
I'll try to see if I fan come up with something co-op using Obeka for next time :) it's tough though, Thoralf REALLY knows the rules. It might be hard to fool him with this one 🤔 but I'll try to think of something