Bit of a throwback to my more rambling videos, hope nobody minds! It felt like the right kind of video to talk more freely. Dave's Walks video: th-cam.com/video/kUu1G8nVJHk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=7ECIasn_Ge4YpE9a Patreon link: www.patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree Buymeacoffee link: www.buymeacoffee.com/mltt
In the book Blood and Fire Helaena doesn't really get any time and so the show is much more expanded upon for this character. However, I suspect that the show writers have so little to go off that is reason why she doesn't show up. Plus most of the money has gone to the Dragons.
I honestly find it really refreshing to have the show seemingly represent some sort of neurodivergence without feeling the need to explicitly acknowledge it
Is Helaena the fictional person definitely autistic? No. Is her character autistic coded? Absolutely. I kind of like how there’s a neurodivergent person in the show who’s nonviolent and just wants to vibe. If more targaryens were like her then there wouldn’t be a civil war.
@@FunFilmFare What are you talking about? She clearly unalived herself the same day, hour, and minute that her brother Aemond ate the big one. Because they were lovers you see.
I work in SPED with autistic children. Thank you for offering a realistic view of autism. It’s a complicated neurodivergent diagnosis and people who misunderstand it far too often love to treat it idealistically or completely demonize it.
100%. My in-laws go back and forth between "autistic kids are smarter than normal kids" and "vaccines cause autism". They don't understand that both perspectives are patronizing, ignorant, and ableist. My 3yo twin girls are autistic and I get highly stressed every time I think about how they're going to grow up hearing one or both of these outlooks. Hoping that my perspective will be enough to keep them grounded but knowing it probably won't be really sucks.
My therapist dismissed my concerns that I might be autistic because, in his own words, I have empathy. This lead to my being undiagnosed for many more years until I found an autism specialist that did diagnose me as being on the spectrum. This is all to say that I respect your way of going about things like this so much. Not only in your professional life, but being careful to give constructive information in pop videos like this one. Thank you, and your young patients are very lucky to have you.
I'm often told I must be autistic by people, and I tested high for it on an online test, but I'm wondering if there's any point in me bothering to get an actual diagnosis? I'm 53 and not really interested in changing at this point in my life. I'm just hoping at this point to make it to retirement age, retire, and not be bothered with society in general any longer. Is there any benefit in getting a diagnosis as an older adult?
What in the actual fuck?!!! Who the hell ever said autism=unempathetic? Just because someone on the spectrum has a hard time fitting in and relating to other people doesn't mean they can't empathize. My kids are autistic and they care just as much about the feelings of other people as neurotypical kids. I haven't gotten a diagnosis (yet) so I won't say I'm autistic. But, I'm pretty sure that I am, and my levels of empathy are higher than a lot of people I know. It's kind of draining, tbh
Martin was once asked if Brienne of Tarth had something (can’t remember what) and he responded: “I don’t know because the Maesters don’t know what DNA is.”
I think at one point Brienne mentioned moon blood. So if she had CAIS or PAIS (like Caster Semenya and probably Imane Khelif) she wouldn't menstruate. @@thedragondemands5186
Some similar debates are about historical characters. The Roman emperor Maximinus Thrax for example is suspected of having acromegalia, which also may explain his high level of violence and massive stature. It's suspected The Mountain from GOT also suffers from that.
She is a fictional character and open to interpretation. I, as a person on the spectrum with an ASD child, definitely see some autistic traits and can appreciate the representation. But someone else might not see that. What I don’t get is when people get all up in arms about whether or not a character is a certain way. It all depends on how you as an individual connect with the art. So it’s different for everyone.
I personally think CPTSD could be a way to explain the overlap between ASD behaviors and PTSD symptoms in Helaena. CPTSD is a form of neurodivergence that can often present as a combination of ASD and PTSD. I was diagnosed with it and my diagnosis was complicated bc I've always presented with ASD, ADHD, and PTSD since I was very young. CPTSD was the best explanation given the context of my early childhood. CPTSD comes from extreme or repeated exposure to stress and trauma in a child’s developmental years. The long term stress can change how the brain develops, the processing of stimuli, executive functioning, and how the person relates to themselves and the world around them. So it presents in neurodivergence like ASD along with trauma responses often associated with PTSD. That’s my interpretation of Helaena since it explains how her repeated, stressful visions (that she probably had since childhood) could’ve impacted her development which leads her to express behaviors associated with ASD and symptoms of PTSD. I personally like that explanation bc it validates anyone who is neurodivergent and sees themselves in her while also allowing for trauma to hold space in her characterization. Regardless, Helaena is such a good character and one of my favorites :)
autistic person here. I really appreciate what you said at 3:17 because a lot of people are using the algorithm in social media to do this to each other and themselves without the added nuance of understanding how they are similar or dissimilar to other forms of neurodivergence. I will say I like the head cannon that she is autistic though, even if its not founded in much, but its not an agenda i am willing to push for. however, i agree its basing it off of stereotypical autistic traits. i could also argue that sansa and arya are autistic if i wanted to die on that hill. i dont know if they intentionally wrote her as autistic but ive felt that the most unintentional written characters end up feeling more authentic to the autistic experience in my opinion. im glad you were nice to that video you were responding to bc i could not be. that enraged me just in the clips you saw lol.
@@Milkman0101 I GUESS Arya could be argued as autistic? Or having ADHD? With her intense special interests (in swordplay), her hyperactivity, her frequent eloping to places where she shouldn't be, and her being much less social than Sansa.
Experiencing grief and a traumatic experience isn't always this dramatic Shakespearean spectacle where we react strongly. It can take a while to fully process what has happened to us, and that strong response can get triggered by anything mundane. (NO BOOK SPOILERS BUT JUST MY PREDICTION FOR WHAT DIRECTION THE SHOW MIGHT HEAD) I have a feeling we might see a breaking point for Helaena in the future. Everything might come at her all at once after something important or innocuous happens, and then she might have an strong emotional breakdown, turning into the depressed and inconsolable Helaena from the books. She just seems to be bottling up a lot of things and she feels like a ticking time bomb.
I’ve just always thought she was but I never really acknowledge the fact that it should not be a trauma response so kudos for pointing that out. The nonlinear nature of her ability as a dreamer does make the diagnosis quite complicated because what if she started having these visions as a baby all throughout her childhood? The way she interacts with the world could be a response to that, yet if she was always cursed with it…it’s hard. You also didn’t engage with the fact that Helaena literally always shies away from being touched by Alicent or anyone to the point where in the final episode Aemond realises he made a mistake by touching her at all when he tried to force her to use Dreamfyre and refrains from doing it again when they speak in private.
I really enjoy Helaena's character and relate to her a lot, even if we didn't see much of her this season. Even if she wasn’t specifically autistic coded, but i highly believe she was, she was definitely meant to have some flavors of neurodivergency in mind. Perhaps even a few different ones? For me I have ASD, ADHD and PTSD and honestly a Lot of those symptoms have cross over among different types and how they present. The ear covering for instance. I usually wear sunglasses and earplugs / or headphones in crowds so the stimulation isn’t as overwhelming when everything is "too loud" and it "hurts". Is that the Autism or PTSD, or both? It's hard to say sometimes. Her special interest in bugs could be autism, but it can also be a sign of a few other diagnosis as well. But I do relate to a lot of her "quirky" characterisation and how others perceive her and interact with her on the show. What hurts me is when people so venomently denying that she isn't Autistic or even neurodivergent at all. "No no! She's just psychic! How dare you! She's a butterbean! She's a sweetheart!" And act like the community is selfish or looking too far into it by relating to her. That upsets me. It feels like the implication is that autistic people can't also be enjoyed or perceived as sweet or desirable characters and individuals in their eyes. In my experience, people's bias against autism has really reared its ugly head when I've talked about this online. It makes me a bit sad, honestly. Representation matters, even if it isn't explicit. But people also need to be more open minded on where the neurodivergent community is coming from when they say they relate to her and appreciate her in the story. It also makes me mad that because of limited representation people assume the only way to "be autistic" is to be like Rain Man or the Good Doctor. That also upsets me 🫠 "you aren’t autistic, you're not a genius", "you're not autistic, you can make eye contact". We need more diversity in representation with character like Helaena or whoever else because it adds to the public''s perception of what it can look like. It's called a "Spectrum" for a reason. For the record: I do think she is autistic in conjunction with trauma symptoms.
I’ve heard some theories that state autism’s similarity to CPTSD is because of being autistic and being forced into situations we that trigger us over and over again. So basically every autistic person has developed a level of CPTSD. Because being autistic is currently traumatic. These traits might not be as prevalent in a society more accepting of autistic people.
It’s irritating that I see a lot of people misinterpreting her online in ways that I and other autistic people are misinterpreted. But it’s to be expected haha. I’m just glad her autism is decently portrayed so far
No no! The other guy was spot on: I AM only autistic because Bran warged into my mind as an impressionable adolescent in the past. Obviously! Incredibly tragic really 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠
It's extremely disappointing that Helaena gets so sidelined. And I think you've come at this with a lot of wonderful nuance. I'm an "older" (that is, I'm an Elder Millennial) autistic person at this point, and unfortunately my experience with autistic representation in media is very limited because, as an autistic person, my *interests* are very limited. I watch/read/play almost exclusively SFF, so if it something can't be set in the future, characters can almost never be explicitly stated to be autistic. And with my 40+ years on the planet, the autistic representation I've seen from mainstream contemporarily-set media is... well, Rain Man, The Good Doctor, Music. Where nuance comes in here is that you're not wrong about, like, anything, basically. I think autistic people really want to see representation, and we want to see it that's sympathetic and not broad stereotypes, and that gets really tricky in SFF, especially fantasy, media. I think that demanding professionals do armchair diagnosing of tv, movie, book, and video game characters is... odd and potentially even uncomfortable for everyone involved? But simultaneously, I think it is in no way odd for autistic people to see characters like Helaena, or Fire Emblem's Felix Fraldarius, or Baldur's Gate III's Gale, and think "well DANG, they sure seem autistic!" *because* representation for us is so freaking thorny. And on top of *all* of that, it's really uncomfortable, too, to watch autistic people talk about characters like this and have allistic people jump up and down and yell NO! There's a Gale subreddit where they were talking in comments about how much they dislike it that people see Gale as autistic because it's "romanticizing mental illness" and I didn't get into it but oh did I want to. I think some of us might find it validating if a professional tells us we're correct about a character, and the flip side of that is how invalidating it is to have allistic people scold us for identifying with characters who aren't explicitly made out to be autistic. I think both of those things shouldn't happen. Professionals can't diagnose someone who a) doesn't exist and b) isn't their patient and c) *doesn't exist*. But given just how... rough... representation can be, how difficult it can be to find sympathetic representation, representation that's not just "oh, look at how brave and special they are!" or full of terrible, misguided stereotypes, and all that... yeah. I look at some of these characters and like to imagine they're like me.
Amen to this. I also feel it's much easier for us to empathise with characters that aren't explicitly stated to be autistic because of a couple of reasons: 1. If a character is openly outed as autistic it is most often shown from the outside perspective. Can't explain why that is. It also happens when you tell people that you are autistic. You make them take out their mental clipboards and check a predetermined list of what they expect from someone with that label. The worst part is that you also kind of do this yourself because you have been conditioned to know your diagnostic criteria. 2. We aren't reminded of their diagnosis: We don't see ourselves as weird or different. We feel like we are normal, so when someone shows up in a show who actually acts and seems to process emotion the same way as us, we feel validated and relate to the person. That's just my experience, though, is it also yours? Sincerely, a baby millennial :)
I'm an autistic woman and to me, Helaena both did and didn't come across to me as autistic. I think the scene that hit strongest for me was the public funeral progress. The way that scene was shot, the overwhelming stimuli, her adversion to being touched, having Alicent try to touch her to calm her only to upset her even more - that's what a meltdown is like for me. Unless the show gives us more time with her though, it's a little difficult to tell for me what is meant to be ASD coding and what is her experiencing prophetic visions 24/7. The thing I've come to learn about ASD representation is that we clearly need a lot more of it, and a lot more of us acknowledging what it is, instead of letting it hang around as an unspecified "thing" or "quirk". Autistic people are wildly different. What seems like bad rep to one of us can easily be fantastic rep to another. You can't run down a checklist and go "yup, checked all the boxes, that's an autistic character!" Because we don't all experience the same set of symptoms at the same intensity. Funny enough, ASoIaF IS my special interest, and I've found you can read autistic traits into quite a few of the book characters. Stannis always came off that way to me as I was reading it, even though I'm nothing like him his rigid sense of justice and particularly his preference for saying exactly what he thinks and expecting others to speak plain in return jumped out at me. I think it's okay for autistic people to decide for themselves if a character is or is not autistic coded, but at the same time I wish they would outright tell us when they're going for that more often. It really sucks knowing most people who don't know any autistic people think about media like Rain Man or The Good Doctor and hold that up as "this is was autism is". :/
And, when I say that she also DIDN'T come off to me as autistic, I don't actually mean there are scenes that made me go "this isn't what an autistic person would do/say". I simply mean that there are things people are holding up as proof that she is, that I personally attributed to trauma. Her response to blood and cheese is a VERY realistic depiction of shock - I don't think the people who were confused about that or thought it was lackluster or strange have actually ever experienced a violent situation like that (thankfully). Again, just as you say in the video media is TELLING us how people react, with the screaming and crying and begging. Shock doesn't work that way, autistic or no.
Helaena is so obviously autistic that I'm convinced HotD has autists in the writers' room. Ain't no way a bunch of neurotypicals got the experience of autism that right all on their own. I was agnostic about it in the first season - I thought that maybe they were just trying to portray little-Helaena as a stereotypical "weird kid" and adult Helaena as sheltered and naïve. Then season 2 gave us that funeral procession and the moment where she focuses on the texture of the hops floating through the air to help her deal with the sensory and emotional overwhelm of everything else, and I went "oh." I read a lot of books and watch a lot of TV, and I can't remember ever seeing that particular coping mechanism portrayed that accurately. As for the show not really digging into her character or giving her much screen time . . . that's probably how the character would want it. The character of Helaena spends her entire life wanting nothing more than to sink into the background and not be noticed by anyone because *being perceived* is uncomfortable for autists. It might even feel uncomfortable and voyeuristic if the show focused more on Helaena unless it was handled very, very carefully.
"no way a bunch of neurotypicals got the experience of autism that right all on their own". Don't underestimate the HOTD writers. It's possible they have loved ones with autism and depict it based on their autistic loved ones. Like how Rick Riordan based Percy Jackson on his own son with ADHD/dyslexia, and IMO did a pretty decent representation of ADHD/dyslexia.
Cool thanks so much for making this! I love your videos so much! I too was disappointed by her character portrayal in season two despite her like her older sister losing a child, hopefully season three will be more kind
If HBO continues to adapt the Targaryens reign, I hope they keep up Targaryens and nuero divergency. I don't think it was fully intentional by George, but so many Targaryens show signs of neuro divergency. Maybe not Autism, but something as simple as Viserys having a special interest in building miniatures. Nuero divergency had genetic links and the endless list of possible trauma one can have from being nuerodivergent while in a royal court is Immense. Autism is a spectrum so definitively saying any of the characters are autistic and/or nuero divergent is hard, but I do think showing many different characters that are like that could be incredible representation. I'm also not claiming and Targaryen is nuero divergent, but many are 100% coded that way.
In the us, I can’t diagnose autism or adhd. If I think my clients might have either one, I send them to a psychologist that does testing. Sure, I can diagnose but there are things that need a trained eye for all the reasons you’ve said. Now, if it was “just” trauma, the whole treatment would be different since she’s still in the family system that creates most of the trauma 🤷🏻♀️ Great video. Thank you for your thoughts and professional opinion.
More videos on the world of ice and fire pleeeease. It is nice to see your angle on the complex characters in their storylines. Also I like the rambling.
Thank you so much for your video. This is such a well rounded piece and great points. I am autistic and so are my children. We are all very different, as autism is a spectrum. I think she may be autistic, and in the real world, she shows enough traits to warrant an assessment.
I really appreciate a character that's autistic coded that's not ragingly stereotypical and really has their own personality. Especially a girl growing up in such a medieval style society, it's such an interesting, unique view to portray. I just wish she had gotten more time on screen.
So much of our minds and physical responses are misunderstood, generally. In terms of trauma/adrenline responses most people know of fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Others I have been learning about (that keep to the F theme because people love aliteration) are: Fix, flop, faint, funster, friend and fib. It has been so helpful to understanding my children better.
Fix? To try and fix the issue? What's the difference between flop and faint? What's funster? What's the difference between friend and fawn? What's fib?
@@Thebeezzkneezz. What a stupid comment. I would rather a human being explain me, even if through a screen, with their own words, than googling it so I can read it on-line. Live and let others be.
i was so happy to see how helaena in the show. it’s nice seeing them take a neurotypical character & obviously put her on the spectrum for the tv-show when they didn’t have to…the creators didn’t have to give us some of the sweetest autistic bug-girl rep i’ve ever seen, but they did anyway & i feel so seen bc of it
I think she is and i also think she is easily overwhelmed by the world cuz shes an empath. Like she can literally feel the emotions and stuff of others
as an autistic person myself i can hardly believe helaena is autistic mainly because of how she's written as a dragon dreamer. its hard for me at least to view her as autistic when you throw in magical superpowers in the mix, like is it actually that she's autistic or her brain has been fried due to her powers? its just too weird to reconcile the two for me nor do i really trust the writers to actually portray autism correctly despite the fact that its somewhat clear the writers are at least attempting to write her as autstic but its just not that believable to me over her clear existence of a plot device.
It can be both! People with schizophrenia and autism in certain periods, areas, and positions in society were sometimes seen as, "Blessed." F or example in (viking) migration-period scandinavian culture, people with delusions or schizophrenia or autism, they could become high priests due to their, "Prophetic," hallucinations, experiences, or otherwise. It's another inspiration George R.R. Martin takes from history, and it's fascinating to both fairly faithfully represent neurodivergence in a pretty respectful way (autism not being used as a target for jokes, mockery and cheap laughs) and portray this certain aspect of decades long gone. I for one think it is a fantastic representation of level 2 needs autism, and it doesn't belittle the autistic person portrayed either, it HUMANIZES them and makes them a genuinely sympathizable and likable character, which is EXTREMELY important especially in this day and age where autism is still mocked and used as an insult.
I have to credit the channel Dave's Walks for the background, all of them are beautiful and he kindly lets me use them as background. Is figured just showing the same few scenes of Helaena over and over this video would get repetitive
I'm with you on this one. Personally I find it disturbing how many people fetishize these portrayals of "neurodivergence". In media you basically only get 1 of 2 flavors: either complete invalid, or misunderstood invalid with superpowers. There's nothing in between, no nuance. It's not really the show or movie's fault -- there just isn't enough runtime for nuance. But people still cling to this idea that they must be "represented" in media and fetishistically crave this need to relate to fictional characters. We've forsaken teaching our children empathy over glorifying self-representation and self-indulgence. I like that Helena exists in this incarnation. I just wish people would take moment to chill and stop idealizing it.
Clinical psychologist here. Not an expert in autism assessment but I do see Heleana as someone who is probably autistic. I feel this way mostly because a lot of autistic people feel that way and can see themselves in her and I think that's important information. I see her possible autism as orthogonal to her being a dragondreamer. I think that autistic challenges with communication could make it difficult for her to engage with others and really share the content of her dragon dreams in a meaningful way. It seems that no one has any idea she has these prophetic visions until the Daemon scene followed by the Aemond scene. You'd think that someone would have noticed by now that the things she says come true. But she tends to say them sort of to the clouds. And she never circles back and clarifies that what has just happened is something she had seen would happen. I've seen some commentary that she is a Cassandra type. But I somewhat disagree with that. It isn't so much that people don't believe her. It's that she isn't connected enough with anyone around her to communicate effectively that she is having visions. She sort of makes these prophetic statements to herself most of the time. Until she straight up tells Daemon and Aemond what she has been seeing. I'd be curious to see if they explore how she got to that point. I'd love if season 3 opened with some kind of backwards look into Heleana's mind where we get to see her experience over the last season (and possibly even earlier) through her eyes. What does the world look like to her? How does she experience these visions? How does she make sense of them? And how did she go from having these vague prophecies that used a lot of metaphors and symbolism to having more of a concrete picture of events that are unfolding and will unfold? I do think that the way she is viewed by others is due to this sort of intersection she exists at, where she has these autistic traits AND she has prophetic visions. She might viewed quite differently and someone may have noticed her gift ("the sight") much sooner if she wasnt already viewed as socially odd with what others in that society seem to view as strange interests and speech for a young princess and queen.
Also, I should mention that I am a PTSD specialist. I totally agree with you that her response to Blood and Cheese is not a piece of evidence that she is autistic. Trauma is an experience that by definition is an aberration. Someone's reaction to it, especially in the moment, cannot be used as evidence of neurotypicality or neurodivergence. Because trauma is a relatively low base rate experience, establishing what a typical vs. atypical response to it is will always be nearly impossible.
Regardless of wether Helaena is or is not autistic (we can't never know for sure), I relate to her as an aspie or someone with mild autism. She's always alone, with her bugs or scribbling stuff, which reminds me of myself when I was a little boy, I would just wander off into myself. Helaena does the same, as opposed to hanging out with her handmaidens or anyone, really. As I've grown older, I don't like to be touched by my mother, which causes friction, because she's a touchy feely person. She can also see the future, which I feel ties into my intuition or the fact I can predict how something is gonna turn out based on the aura or feel of it. She also mutters stuff, which I sometimes do, when I'm thinking in English or French with myself. She feels a lot, but doesn't know how to express it. And everyone thinks she's weird and no one pays her attention, even though they'd be gladder if they would.
This is one of the points I wish I'd stressed better. We can't know for sure, and it's kind of pointless arguing over whether she is or not, but that absolutely shouldn't stop people from relating to her, because that's a big part of what makes fictional characters so meaningful in the first place. Thanks for mentioning it here much better than I did in the video
I have been too afraid to tell Tony Teflon just how offensive his video on Helaena and autism is. Others have brought it up in private messages but I really have no idea how to respond. 1 - firmly states Hodor is autistic solely based on “he flaps his hands” in a few scenes, 2 - claims autism is something people can get from _brain damage_ or _severe emotional trauma?_ I don’t know what to say. No matter what we do we’re wrong. It’s comparable to if he made a video claiming - in good faith, but ignorance - that Down Syndrome is contagious, like from sharing toilet seats. How the heck do we even begin to tell someone “you unintentionally said something really offensive”… without insulting them?
Hodor seems to have had a "magical TBI" (traumatic brain injury) and that significantly more aligns with what we saw of his character imo. Not autism. He must not be aware what a TBI is? Or think that it is synonymous with autism? But that is pretty insulting.
In my experience, sometimes you just have to say you said something offensive. I'd rather be told than continue hurting people, and I choose to believe most decent people feel the same.
I can't say I know the channel. My method was just to poke fun, hopefully in a way that still feels polite, but it's doubtful he'd see my video. Over the years, I can say a lot of people have corrected me in the comments over stuff, and I've always been grateful for it, so hopefully they'd feel the same, and if you're expressing it's a mistake made by someone with good faith, rather than suggesting he was deliberately being offensive, then I'd hope it's likely to be well received
I think she is neurodivergent in some form, maybe ADHD with her hyperfocus on bugs and sewing, Blood and Cheese event triggering depression and anxiety on her, and other things like don't liking to be touched or don't liking loud noises
I think she has a hard time telling her prophetic dreams from reality and staying in linear existence. But as she got older and has gotten more control over it she's starting to understand what is a dream and what is not. Her appearing to Daemon and bluntly telling Aemond his fate are her taking control of what she see's. She could still see something so traumatic that it break's her sanity but that remains to be seen.
personally i think the best evidence for helaena being autistic is that a lot of autistic people relate to her. if i had written helaena into the show myself, i would’ve argued literally everything about her is evidence she was intended to be on the spectrum. i have never felt more seen by a character than by helaena. & I think allistic people should be careful not to overspeak too much & say she’s surely not autistic because it “can’t be proven 100%”. to doctors many of us aren’t autistic just bc we can’t be prove it 100%. others not seeing it doesn’t make us magically normal & make autism stop affecting our lives. great video 🩷🐉🪲
As an autistic person myself, i do believe that a ND person's pattern recognition abilities, combined with a lot of NT's lack thereof, could have led past time people to believe neurodivergent people have predicting abilities. I myself have experienced situations where people asked me how i could have known sth would happen, but for me it was very obvious from comparison with how other things have played out.
Autistic or not, I wish she would just take her daughter and her dragon, fly to the summer islands and live happily studying exotic bugs. But I'm afraid that's not going to happen. 😢
I think Helena's fascination with the spider comes across as an interesting 4th wall break of sorts being that it is how we the viewers look at these characters, limited to their many eyes in the control of our hand, insignificant to the grand scheme that has already been weaved around them.
Even if she isn’t, it doesn’t really matter. What matters to me is that I find her relatable and a good representation of autistic traits, without it being directly stated for the audience. I think we need more representation of these traits, so it is more normalized and I feel less shame when I present these traits. Just my personal take
One thing we need to like get clear here, is that Helaena isn't Daenerys Targaryen or Sansa Stark; she doesn't rise from the ashes of her trauma as a more powerful woman. Witnessing the murder of her child causes her to succumb to a debilitating mindset where she's incredibly unstable and takes her own life because of it. There's nothing necessarily wrong with depicting a female character this way. Because people respond to trauma in different ways, and sometimes, they meet a tragic end. In a world where women are easy targets in a war, it's not implausible that this is the fate of Helaena's story. Also taking into account that, she's one of the few innocent people who are collateral damage, all because she was born on the wrong side of the family. Since she was described as the gentlest and kindest of her family. But honestly, Helaena has been one of my main favorite characters in this season 2 of HOTD, and as well one of the many who gets sidelined and is only important when it's time for her to be emotionally scarred. I think Phia Saban performance as Helaena is one of the best from the series.
I unfortunately think Healenas entire personality has been subsumed by her visions, to the point she ins't really an individual in the story and more a walkning plot device.
When you said you have had people that were dead set on there child is autistic really hit me as When I was a child my teachers were determined to have me be autistic. I use to have separate lessons and other things. I never needed it but I was happy to get out of class. I kinda of just believe them not questioning it as they were certain I was but when I got a bit older around year 6 I knew it wasn't I wasn't but they still all said I was and I was put in the lowest class in secondary school for people with issues. I hated it there the work was always way to easy never giving me a challenge and all my friends were in other classes. Every year I asked to be moved and never was. I'm 20 now and apart from the fact I like 40k nothing about me is in line with autistim but because my primary school was determined to have an autistic kid for there portfolio I never was challenged in school. I don't know what simptoms they saw. I know when my farther died I use to act out and my mother's a depressed alcoholic so maybe it was me acting out from those things that convinced them I was I can't remember to well to be honest but yeah I get what you mean in this video 100%
Halaena is my favorite character in the entire show - especially because of the performance! But likewise, I wanted more of her! I think (or at least hope) the character suffered from the shortening of the season. I feel like they set up something that could have been as great as King Vicerys' arc. Hopefully they'll pick it up again in season 3
Finally a video talking about her! I've being searching for it almost everyday. Helaena is so obviously autistic and yet I still finding tons of people saying "she's not autistic, just weird. And you're dumb.", "it's her dreaming powers lol" or even calling her evil because she "doesn't love her kids. She killed her son and didn't show grief"..... simply awful. People love to talk a lot about things that they don't know. As a neurodivergent myself (my brain oddness owns a few autistic traits) who met and take care of real autistics through years, it's so easy to realize Helaena is very different and yes, autistic. We must also add the fact that she was raised in a chaotic toxic family, where they didn't receive many affection and experienced hard experiences from the cruel world they live in. The trauma is there and it's part of her personality now, but that doesn't take away she's autistic; actually, neurodivergent people tend to live more traumatic experiences that "normal" folks. Neurotypicals, for some reason, deny that her autism and powers are compatible and can coexist; they go for an "all or nothing" vision, obstinated in thinking that "it can be only of two thing, none both". Honestly, that's stupid and I don't how they don't realize it. Good video, and such a beautiful place you're living in! I love it 🌳🌲🌿🌺
I believe her deliverance of the prophetic visions is a touch telling about her inner state. When she says "he'll have to close an eye," it's songy and merry. When uttering "there's a beast beneath the boards" to her mother, she is utterly terrified reliving it through her memory of the vision. I do not think these are just PTSD related. She seems disassociated.
I really dislike this teflon guy. He's the quintessential example of someone who knows very little of anything and yet has so many certainties about everything. Living incarnation of Bukowski's quote: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence"
People giving kudos for point out that could be a trauma response, uff, I'm not saying that there is true in that, but I think people asking if she is autistic don't do it only base on how she acts under stress but also how she acts when she is in non, especially at the beginning of the serie as a child she does not seem shy at all, but rather no interest in humans or normal conversations, she rather behaves in a way that gives autistic vibes, also you I good to point out that most autistic that are not diagnosed at young age, are traumatize later in life because they have to go through life as if they weren't, and in the world of Ice and Fire mental health is not a thing, so they just think she is weird so maybe going through all the things we see in the serie just sinks her deeper. But this is my own take.
I would just add the trauma response example is the glaring one, but most of her behaviour when not under stress is also pretty consistent with symptoms of trauma. Trauma isn't the event itself but the ongoing experience/reaction to it, the part of your brain that continues reacting to it, even years after and often during moments of safety, so the argument she has trauma does go a lot further than that, and does make diagnosis difficult. I'm not than certain the writer intended her to be autistic, and in the real world she'd definitely be worth assessing, but trauma is still another very possible option. Or both together
When you watch interviews with actress, Phia, they have very similar way they talk and move. She's also uncomfortable in certain situations. Wish Haelena smiled more, because Phia is so cute when she smiles!
I believe I'm on the autistic spectrum since I barely spoke until I was 14, & also have those "dreams" & high sensitivity that can be coined as psychic. It's part of me, happened since childhood. As an autistic person not diagnosed my entire life, I endured subsequent traumas, so I'm also suffering from PTSD, & since most females have to wear masks & conform no matter what, it's way harder to be recognized as autistic & even to assess it ourselves without the outside world seeing it. So basically my take on her, as most female on the spectrum, is that I believe most of us are also suffering PTSD since we're downgraded & gaslight all our lives, our opinions don't matter, since it's so hard to fight for it more often than not so we give up, & we usually can't relate to most & see true intentions of the people around us, that can lead to many traumas. Basically, I believe that in most cases in females, PTSD is linked to autism as a consequence that makes it harder to spot. I hope it'll help.
You are so good at research. Would you consider doing a deep dive on AMCs Interview with the Vampire and discuss the themes of race, sexuality and power in this horror series??? The show is amazing and deserves a deeper analytical deep dive.
The whole 'the books are written by maesters so they're unreliable' is such a weak line of argument. It discredits the writing while lending more weight to the show than it deserves. I've literally come across people who claim the show is what 'really' happened. The show is so far away from the book at this point that I think it's impossible to see them as the same thing. The show is very loosely based on the book. It's fan fiction, which takes far more from the previous show than it has any relation to the Rogue Prince or the Princess and the Queen. Honestly I think you're safe to read the book now as we're so far away from the events of the book I don't think you can be spoiled.
Two major snags with anyone in any fantasy show: 1) the fantasy itself 2) the actor's decisions Her prophetic powers are going to have a huge impact on her mental health and how her thought process works. And the actress is the person who is 'not making eye contact' and choosing a lot of the mannerisms. She may have been influenced by seeing autistic traits [or media depictions of them] and consciously or not emulating them within her acting.
I always looked at persons like that in the general SoIaF universe, like more or less how neurodivergent people would be considered in the middle ages in real life. Ofc irl they'd be branded as the crazy people of the village, or even worse as witches and be executed for it. But in Martin's world, where prophecy and divination has some validity - even though it's often misinterpreted - we can operate under the hypothesis of "what if all these neurodivergent people in the middle ages had indeed a gift, and that's why they were neurodivergent?". Like, the people that we - from the real world - recognize as neurodivergent, and their conditions have a diagnosis and a name, in this fantasy world act like that due to some sort of gift. Sure it throws a spanner in the gears of what we know from real life, and how it's depicted in this show, but it's a bit more tricky like that. I'm sure that, if someone irl had the prophetic powers as depicted in the show (if they were a real thing that is), they wouldn't be nonchalant about it, going about their day, drinking coffee while doing their needlework and be completely socially and functionally normal and regular. If prophecy and divination of any sort was indeed real, I'm sure the people experiencing it would appear a bit peculiar as if they have a chip on their shoulder. Experiences like that, especially seeing them materialize, would centainly affect one's emotions and view of life, as well as general behavior.
Or those neurodivergent people become experts in their special interest and become highly respected valuable members of their community. Especially if they're born into wealthy families who can give them the best education possible. Aemond, Jaime, and Tyrion all prove how only wealth can save disabled people from prejudice. The Lannisters acknowledges this, saying they would've killed Tyrion at birth for his condition if he wasn't a Lannister.
Hi, I’ve found this channel before, but was really enraptured by the Dr. Phil videos on the channel. I looked through the channel, and I didn’t know if you have done a video about the Tom Hanks movie “A man named Otto”, it’s an incredible movie. If you have made a video about it, I must’ve missed it when I was looking through the channel. If you haven’t, this sounds really weird for me to simply ask, but do you think you would ever make a video about it?
I wanted to share two very different thoughts. First, I think Haelaena's characterization is one of the things that suffered during the shooting of the show because 1) the writers knew a strike was going to happen and sped through writing 2) once the strike was happening, people were filming but they were allowed to do rewrites as they were working to fix the peoblems that started popping up. Not that it's an excuse, but it' s my way of hoping that next season they might be able to do better! Second, I am not autistic but i work as a general education teacher. A lot of my students are ADHD, Autistic, or "show symptoms". Perhaps more of them are "showing symptoms" because many are in the generation that was really affected by COVID fears from parents and being made to stay at home at a very young age (leading to, perhaps, trauma). Thr fact is, from the perspective of someone who works with kids like that in the general setting, trying to help them like I do all kids, the "diagnosis" doesn't matter much beyond convincing other teachers to provide those accommodations as well after they leave my class. You look at a child, work with them, and realize, "ah, this one needs accommodations to make school better." If someone tells me, "this kid might have autism," all it will do is help me think of a list of accommodations the kid needs or help me understanding their persepctive a bit better in some situations so I can respond better. Keeping that in mind, it makes me look and Haelaena and say, "does it matter if she's officially autistic? Does it matter that it might be her dreams or trauma?" Because, at the end if the day, she is still an amazing, deep, kind character that others overlook because they don't understand her. If they just tried to understand her better and see the world as she does, they could do better for her and also learn from her. At the end of the day, a diagnosis doesn't matter, it's how we treat people. But that's just my perspective as a teacher!
I absolutely agree on your point about how Helaena's possible autism coding could conflict with her dragon dreams. I feel like making Helaena just a normal autistic girl who's being neglected and harmed by her family's behavior would have made her story a lot more powerful, tragic, and relatable. But instead, now that Helaena is portrayed as standing out both for things autistic people commonly experience as well as her magic powers, it feels like the two are being conflated, which is what I feel a lot of the audience is going to take away from her character. Instead of her being just a regular girl who behaves a little different and is misunderstood for it, now it comes off more as her being weird not because it's normal for somebody to act like this, but because she's some magical witch with mysterious intentions. I've seen people theorizing that Helaena is not human, that she is some magical witch that is just watching her family go down, that Alys Rivers is her magical avatar, or even that it's the other way around, and it's frustrating because as someone who is autistic, I'd like for autistic people in media to not be othered so much. She is already othered a lot by the other characters, so I just wish she wouldn't also be othered by the writing. Edit: I'm not saying Helaena is canonically autistic btw, the same would still apply if she's someone with trauma
I haven't watched HotD - I'm just a fan of the books and your channel - and I'm autistic. I can understand why people are eager to identify w/ a young autistic character. Then after S2E1 came out I started to feel bothered that Helaena coming across as a distant mother to a lot of viewers, and her reaction to trauma, was one of the reasons the autism dialogue seemed to ramp up, and just speaking for myself I'm not looking for anymore cold mother / magic superpower autism tropes
i know what will happen to her unless the show doesn't go there .I like Helaena and feel for her.In any of my own fan fiction stories she will be well treated and not suffer what she does in the show.Nor does her son get murdered.
I was already diagnosed and well informed about autism when I watched season 1, and I don’t remember interpreting Helaena as autistic. And that alone makes me question whether it was good representation, especially because my main complaint about HOTD was that I couldn’t relate to any of the characters. Probably why I haven’t gotten around to season 2 yet. Having looked at some scenes of Helaena again just now, I can see what people are talking about, but I don’t think it’s implemented well. It feels like the show is sort of checking boxes with her autism symptoms, whereas the defining attribute of her character that you see again and again is the visions. She is basically a mouthpiece for a higher power. And I think that’s dehumanizing because it doesn’t leave much room for her to have her own personality, thoughts and feelings. If you’re going to portray autism, then it needs to be actual autism and not some kind of supernatural ability that superficially resemble autism.
The question I have regarding you saying they haven't acknowledged it enough that she might be autistic is how would they have done that? It's a medieval setting, they can't say explicitely that she is, at least not in universe. I really liked the video, maybe you have something in mind, I don't have an idea how they would do that off the top of my head
It's not to directly acknowledge autism, but it's to explore who she is. Helaena is very different to her family and the dynamics there are barely explored, neither is her emotional arc this season. Someone who feels ignored by her family and doesn't understand her dreams, then understanding them clearer, speaking up to her brother. I think it feels too loose an arc to really explore Helaena as a person. The trauma of the first episode was largely forgotten by the end of the season, and I barely know what Helaena thinks about anything. It's not to have autism directly acknowledged, it's to have her as a person matter in the story for her sake, rather than just being a plot device for dreams. I'm being quite harsh on the show there but I do think it could've done more
I would also rather them nod to her story than complete butcher it or eat off more than they can chew. THAT IS NOT to say I think the writers are not good but I think the story is already so complicated
I like Helana & respect the performance of the actress but I’m not a fan of the magical autism trope as this def plays into annoying & crappy stereotypes. This is just rain man in fantasy setting & it’s kinda icky. I’ve heard ppl even say autism is a Chevkov’s gun and it has to matter so it gives her dragon dreams which is just… I hate it. Like autism shouldnt have a story justification anymore than having brown hair or a character wearing an earring. And the show making Helana so powerful with the visions does undercut idea she just happens to be autistic & have dragon dreams cause nobody else in continuity is naturally as powerful as her or autistic.
Helaena doesn't struck as me an autistic person but given her visions is enough PTSD. I mean she is literally saw her child death at Blood and Cheese. Helaena already went through grief process while the child was still living.
I think her acting like this is also a little deeper cause its a fantasy and Helaena has seen all of the future basically...imagine seeing all of that horror and being unable to stop it or do anything in that martter...you are just doomed to know that these horrible things will happen, in the end of season 2 we see her more and more accepting this tho , seems like she even forgave Daemon eventhough he murdered her innocent son , how is someoneable to do that other than Helaena understands that Daemon is just a piece in a story and this was inevitable
One problem with the evidence supporting the claim is the fact the evidence often correlates more with lower functioning and for boys. For girls, it comes out in a different way, where the girls arent anti social, but rather opposite, trying to fit in. Higher functioning girls, like Helaena would be considered, tend to know their weird quirks and do their best to hide them as to not bring attention to the weirdness. It can backfire, like youre trying too hard, but thats masking. Heleana doesnt mask, like at all, despite being in a higher position where masking would def be expected, like she should already be taught as a royal, she has to put on a farce a lot, pretend to be happy when shes not, kind of thing. So masking should come extra easy for her as she wouldve legit been taught to pretend to be someone else anyways. But she doesnt. Instead, she bags her ears, she avoids eye contact, and...she likes bugs. This is what is described of a typical boy whose lower functioning. She has sensory issues, which...most people actually do. (Think about how you feel with the nail scraping down a chalkboard. Thats a sensory issue.) She avoids eye contact, which, again...she would at least try for the sake of masking. Like none of it actually points to a high functioning girl, which she would def be. Also, keep in mind schedules are also a big deal, and even for higher functioning, changes would be absolutely draining. As a royal, shes subjected to constant changes in her daily schedule. She handles it fine. Im sorry, but even on the highest end of the spectrum, i just dont see it. It also doesnt help her character in the books is completely different from the character on screen, who DID scream at the death of her son, and became absolutely inconsolable because of the choice she made, to the point of ...well...thats possible spoiler, though...for all we know, HBO will change it and have her go to battle. Also, you can argue its a history book all you want. Certain things ARE cannon. How her son died and her character overall IS cannon. There is absolutely NO question, no bias, nothing. And to be clear, i mean who she was as a person, not exactly everything thats supposed to happen. Except Blood and Cheese, that was also pretty fuking cannon. Fr. NO ONE questioned or acted biasedly about her reaction and which son, or how it happened. The way history books are read, this makes it CANNON. Im done ranting now.
I date/have dated a man on the spectrum. It is very difficult. He is very difficult to date. What makes me sad is to see him try to mimic having emotions he doesn't understand. I know he doesn't understand so it makes me even more difficult. I do not think she is on the spectrum. I think she is a "fortune teller" or religious zealot. She is able to sense emotion. This makes the diagnosis difficult.
As a professional Autistic researcher and activist in the field of Autism study, I would advise you not to use "with autism" when talking about our neurodivergent because it causes confusion about this essential part of an autistic person's inner being and representation. If you want to give us a more humane face, then call us autistic or consciously autistic or any other more humane definition. I admire your nuanced approach to this topic; just do not rely on the DSM-5 definitions next time regarding autism because we want to move beyond dehumanizing definitions since autism wasn't and will never actually be a disorder. thank you, Tzuf Ben Ishay
I completely agree with all of this, thank you for commenting. Part of it I think is how rushed and rambling my approach was to this video, there are various little things I said that I worried was worded badly or would be taken the wrong way, mostly that tends to be me overthinking my videos but it's an important point, so thank you
2:59 no, wrong. Autism is genetical. YOU ARE BORN WITH IT. And mostly if you have autism you can be sure that other family members are on the spectrum too although some of them can have less pronounced treats. (In my case i have autism, my sister have autism and its almost sure that my mother have it too although she refuses to get diagnosis, its also almost sure that mother of my mother had it too and she passed it to all her children). Its not trauma causing it although as an autistic invidual you are more prone to trauma even from small things that will never affect “normal” people.
The mind has to also be more like the body doesn’t it? Maybe not but if so, wouldn’t it be possible to develop autism or something of the sort later in life? Bran wasn’t born crippled but he still is seen as such. Can you see my jumbled up off target point? 😂
Helaena is not autistic though... she's a dragon dreamer on her targaryen side and a greenseer on her hightower side which is why she connects to daemon during his vision at the weirwood tree in harrenhall... Because she can see and dream past and future events, in that way, she exists outside of time which the other characters tend to overlook. Does Rhaenyra give birth to a malformed baby due to inbreeding? You would think so... but also no... the targaryens give birth to still born malformed offspring that have dragon features such as tails, small wings, missing eyes, and scales because it is a reflection of the old valaryen blood magic that was used to create dragons, just as some dragon eggs hatch malformed creatures because it is a reflection of the 3 creatures in old valeria that were used to create dragons. Please go read the books.
I don't quite get your point. She is a dragon dreamer and many Targaryens have been and have given birth to malformed or scaly infants. I have read all of asoiaf several times and whilst I was advised not to read f&b, I have still been informed about a lot of it. You're not wrong but I don't see how any of that discounts whether or not the writers of the tv show intended to depict her as autistic. Not to say she is, because I do raise scepticism, even including talk of her dreams, but she can still easily be both, it's not one or the other and, as well say, tying magical abilities to autism is a painful, very generic trope in stories that Helaena could easily be an example of in the show
I work with kids on the spectrum and have for about 10 years. I should add that I don't diagnose. It never occurred to me that Helena has ASD. To me, everything I saw were trauma responses and introversion. I could see her being neurodivergent, but I don't think it's obvious. Nor do I think it's the most likely explanation. When I've been in a traumatic situation, I've mostly froze. Then got on with it.
I think those two are the most likely possibilities, but we certainly can't rule either out, and I don't think there's enough evidence to be certain. Part of me views it as trauma but that's likely also because I know more about it, but I imagine the writers and Phia Saban had ASD in mind
@@mylittlethoughttreeabsolutely. It's all speculative. It's just that, with my experience, she just doesn't appear to be obviously on the spectrum. I haven't worked with a ton of high functioning ASD people, but I HAVE worked with some. I think Helena exhibits qualities that mirror trauma much more. I've had a few clients who have had both severe trauma and ASD, and their profiles were very similar. Helena doesn't really exhibit those traits. But I dunno. She's a fictional character on a fantasy show. You're probably right that the writers had ASD in mind.
It's so obvious her tv part was written on the spectrum to get soo many new people to sympathize with her. I'm really sick of the "I can relate to her so much" crap. I have been assaulted, so do I have to sympathize with everyone that has been aswell? And where are the ones that sympathize with Heleana for that, being obviously married to a monster? Nowhere. Heaven's sake! And most of those people don't care about the magical part. Where is the admiration to having a dragonrider and a dreamer in the show?They don't see the little details worked in in her character. And the obvious reason why she would be coded on the spectrum at all.. Most of them have never been tested anyway. As you say, people say it because they "know". And now the children have grown with that in mind. The world gets simpler on it's own, you don't need a label. And for all the people who say they knew it all long; GRRM already said, show isn't the book.
I kinda understand why the book version is so different from the show counterpart. In F&B, she is described as a happy girl before her marriage and a loving mother to her children. In the show she is shy and depressed teenager girl from the start. The key difference is in the book, viserys was a present father for her and often played with her children. You might say Aegon wasn't a supporting husband but at least helaena had viserys. The TV version is quite an absent father and helaena is basically left alone. Of course Alicent part is also important in this.
Bit of a throwback to my more rambling videos, hope nobody minds! It felt like the right kind of video to talk more freely.
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In the book Blood and Fire Helaena doesn't really get any time and so the show is much more expanded upon for this character. However, I suspect that the show writers have so little to go off that is reason why she doesn't show up. Plus most of the money has gone to the Dragons.
I love & miss these mindful ramblings♡
I honestly find it really refreshing to have the show seemingly represent some sort of neurodivergence without feeling the need to explicitly acknowledge it
specially in a medieval setting , and autism was coined as a word until very late last century , acknowleding it would be stupid
As an Autistic person, I can confirm we are all like this because we have psychic powers
❤😂
Shhhh! Don’t tell them our secrets!
Don't let the allistics find out!
I was looking for this comment!!
You exposed our secret, now i will expose one of yours in return. You'll will be swallowed up in the god's eye, and you'll never be seen again.😉😉😂😂
Is Helaena the fictional person definitely autistic? No. Is her character autistic coded? Absolutely. I kind of like how there’s a neurodivergent person in the show who’s nonviolent and just wants to vibe. If more targaryens were like her then there wouldn’t be a civil war.
That's exactly why she got killed. Possibly by the Targaryens. For not being as warlike as them.
@@FunFilmFare What are you talking about? She clearly unalived herself the same day, hour, and minute that her brother Aemond ate the big one. Because they were lovers you see.
@@FunFilmFare LOL what? Far more wayfaring Targaryans died than ones that kept to themselves.
I work in SPED with autistic children. Thank you for offering a realistic view of autism. It’s a complicated neurodivergent diagnosis and people who misunderstand it far too often love to treat it idealistically or completely demonize it.
This. I hate the "autistic people are special little fairies" - thing that people do.
@@LalaDepala_00 Or the people who claim to be there to help them, but just use them for money and never actually get any work done with them
So true. There are only extreme opinions. It is so sad
100%. My in-laws go back and forth between "autistic kids are smarter than normal kids" and "vaccines cause autism". They don't understand that both perspectives are patronizing, ignorant, and ableist. My 3yo twin girls are autistic and I get highly stressed every time I think about how they're going to grow up hearing one or both of these outlooks. Hoping that my perspective will be enough to keep them grounded but knowing it probably won't be really sucks.
My therapist dismissed my concerns that I might be autistic because, in his own words, I have empathy.
This lead to my being undiagnosed for many more years until I found an autism specialist that did diagnose me as being on the spectrum.
This is all to say that I respect your way of going about things like this so much. Not only in your professional life, but being careful to give constructive information in pop videos like this one. Thank you, and your young patients are very lucky to have you.
Thanks for commenting, this is exactly the kind of example I meant!
That is so insulting. Autistic people can be incredibly empathetic!
I'm often told I must be autistic by people, and I tested high for it on an online test, but I'm wondering if there's any point in me bothering to get an actual diagnosis? I'm 53 and not really interested in changing at this point in my life. I'm just hoping at this point to make it to retirement age, retire, and not be bothered with society in general any longer. Is there any benefit in getting a diagnosis as an older adult?
@xzonia1 yes, the benefit is validation for yourself!
What in the actual fuck?!!! Who the hell ever said autism=unempathetic? Just because someone on the spectrum has a hard time fitting in and relating to other people doesn't mean they can't empathize. My kids are autistic and they care just as much about the feelings of other people as neurotypical kids. I haven't gotten a diagnosis (yet) so I won't say I'm autistic. But, I'm pretty sure that I am, and my levels of empathy are higher than a lot of people I know. It's kind of draining, tbh
*Glidus kicks in the door*
"YESSS AND SHE'S PERFECT"
Haha I heard your comment in his voice 😂😂😂
@@zarabee2880 Then I have done my job 🫡
first thing I thought of when I saw the video title was Glidus ;D
Lmao I fucking love glimbus
Martin was once asked if Brienne of Tarth had something (can’t remember what) and he responded: “I don’t know because the Maesters don’t know what DNA is.”
They asked if she has triple X chromosomes
I think at one point Brienne mentioned moon blood. So if she had CAIS or PAIS (like Caster Semenya and probably Imane Khelif) she wouldn't menstruate. @@thedragondemands5186
Some similar debates are about historical characters. The Roman emperor Maximinus Thrax for example is suspected of having acromegalia, which also may explain his high level of violence and massive stature.
It's suspected The Mountain from GOT also suffers from that.
She is a fictional character and open to interpretation. I, as a person on the spectrum with an ASD child, definitely see some autistic traits and can appreciate the representation. But someone else might not see that. What I don’t get is when people get all up in arms about whether or not a character is a certain way. It all depends on how you as an individual connect with the art. So it’s different for everyone.
I personally think CPTSD could be a way to explain the overlap between ASD behaviors and PTSD symptoms in Helaena. CPTSD is a form of neurodivergence that can often present as a combination of ASD and PTSD. I was diagnosed with it and my diagnosis was complicated bc I've always presented with ASD, ADHD, and PTSD since I was very young. CPTSD was the best explanation given the context of my early childhood. CPTSD comes from extreme or repeated exposure to stress and trauma in a child’s developmental years. The long term stress can change how the brain develops, the processing of stimuli, executive functioning, and how the person relates to themselves and the world around them. So it presents in neurodivergence like ASD along with trauma responses often associated with PTSD.
That’s my interpretation of Helaena since it explains how her repeated, stressful visions (that she probably had since childhood) could’ve impacted her development which leads her to express behaviors associated with ASD and symptoms of PTSD. I personally like that explanation bc it validates anyone who is neurodivergent and sees themselves in her while also allowing for trauma to hold space in her characterization. Regardless, Helaena is such a good character and one of my favorites :)
I have CPTSD and this makes so much sense, must be why I relate to her character on such a deep level
Also ND kids are more likely to have these kind of long term traumatic experiances.
Absolutely love the visuals used in this video! I could watch them for hours.❤
autistic person here. I really appreciate what you said at 3:17 because a lot of people are using the algorithm in social media to do this to each other and themselves without the added nuance of understanding how they are similar or dissimilar to other forms of neurodivergence. I will say I like the head cannon that she is autistic though, even if its not founded in much, but its not an agenda i am willing to push for.
however, i agree its basing it off of stereotypical autistic traits. i could also argue that sansa and arya are autistic if i wanted to die on that hill. i dont know if they intentionally wrote her as autistic but ive felt that the most unintentional written characters end up feeling more authentic to the autistic experience in my opinion.
im glad you were nice to that video you were responding to bc i could not be. that enraged me just in the clips you saw lol.
Genuinely how could Sansa or Arya be argued as autistic?
@@Milkman0101 I GUESS Arya could be argued as autistic? Or having ADHD? With her intense special interests (in swordplay), her hyperactivity, her frequent eloping to places where she shouldn't be, and her being much less social than Sansa.
Experiencing grief and a traumatic experience isn't always this dramatic Shakespearean spectacle where we react strongly. It can take a while to fully process what has happened to us, and that strong response can get triggered by anything mundane.
(NO BOOK SPOILERS BUT JUST MY PREDICTION FOR WHAT DIRECTION THE SHOW MIGHT HEAD)
I have a feeling we might see a breaking point for Helaena in the future. Everything might come at her all at once after something important or innocuous happens, and then she might have an strong emotional breakdown, turning into the depressed and inconsolable Helaena from the books. She just seems to be bottling up a lot of things and she feels like a ticking time bomb.
Maybe a mouse or just looking at a babe that reminds her to her son
My thoughts exactly. Her son's funeral was almost her breaking point.
I’ve just always thought she was but I never really acknowledge the fact that it should not be a trauma response so kudos for pointing that out. The nonlinear nature of her ability as a dreamer does make the diagnosis quite complicated because what if she started having these visions as a baby all throughout her childhood? The way she interacts with the world could be a response to that, yet if she was always cursed with it…it’s hard. You also didn’t engage with the fact that Helaena literally always shies away from being touched by Alicent or anyone to the point where in the final episode Aemond realises he made a mistake by touching her at all when he tried to force her to use Dreamfyre and refrains from doing it again when they speak in private.
I really enjoy Helaena's character and relate to her a lot, even if we didn't see much of her this season. Even if she wasn’t specifically autistic coded, but i highly believe she was, she was definitely meant to have some flavors of neurodivergency in mind. Perhaps even a few different ones? For me I have ASD, ADHD and PTSD and honestly a Lot of those symptoms have cross over among different types and how they present. The ear covering for instance. I usually wear sunglasses and earplugs / or headphones in crowds so the stimulation isn’t as overwhelming when everything is "too loud" and it "hurts". Is that the Autism or PTSD, or both? It's hard to say sometimes. Her special interest in bugs could be autism, but it can also be a sign of a few other diagnosis as well. But I do relate to a lot of her "quirky" characterisation and how others perceive her and interact with her on the show. What hurts me is when people so venomently denying that she isn't Autistic or even neurodivergent at all. "No no! She's just psychic! How dare you! She's a butterbean! She's a sweetheart!" And act like the community is selfish or looking too far into it by relating to her. That upsets me. It feels like the implication is that autistic people can't also be enjoyed or perceived as sweet or desirable characters and individuals in their eyes. In my experience, people's bias against autism has really reared its ugly head when I've talked about this online. It makes me a bit sad, honestly. Representation matters, even if it isn't explicit. But people also need to be more open minded on where the neurodivergent community is coming from when they say they relate to her and appreciate her in the story. It also makes me mad that because of limited representation people assume the only way to "be autistic" is to be like Rain Man or the Good Doctor. That also upsets me 🫠 "you aren’t autistic, you're not a genius", "you're not autistic, you can make eye contact". We need more diversity in representation with character like Helaena or whoever else because it adds to the public''s perception of what it can look like. It's called a "Spectrum" for a reason. For the record: I do think she is autistic in conjunction with trauma symptoms.
I didn't know that about people's responses, wish I'd mentioned that in the video now!
I’ve heard some theories that state autism’s similarity to CPTSD is because of being autistic and being forced into situations we that trigger us over and over again.
So basically every autistic person has developed a level of CPTSD. Because being autistic is currently traumatic.
These traits might not be as prevalent in a society more accepting of autistic people.
It’s irritating that I see a lot of people misinterpreting her online in ways that I and other autistic people are misinterpreted. But it’s to be expected haha. I’m just glad her autism is decently portrayed so far
I agree 100%
No no! The other guy was spot on: I AM only autistic because Bran warged into my mind as an impressionable adolescent in the past. Obviously! Incredibly tragic really 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠
Bran really needs to stop doing that 🙄
There is plenty of wild ASOIAF theories but "Bran, the fictional character, have me, a real person, autism" gets the cake!!! 🤣
It's extremely disappointing that Helaena gets so sidelined. And I think you've come at this with a lot of wonderful nuance. I'm an "older" (that is, I'm an Elder Millennial) autistic person at this point, and unfortunately my experience with autistic representation in media is very limited because, as an autistic person, my *interests* are very limited. I watch/read/play almost exclusively SFF, so if it something can't be set in the future, characters can almost never be explicitly stated to be autistic. And with my 40+ years on the planet, the autistic representation I've seen from mainstream contemporarily-set media is... well, Rain Man, The Good Doctor, Music.
Where nuance comes in here is that you're not wrong about, like, anything, basically. I think autistic people really want to see representation, and we want to see it that's sympathetic and not broad stereotypes, and that gets really tricky in SFF, especially fantasy, media. I think that demanding professionals do armchair diagnosing of tv, movie, book, and video game characters is... odd and potentially even uncomfortable for everyone involved? But simultaneously, I think it is in no way odd for autistic people to see characters like Helaena, or Fire Emblem's Felix Fraldarius, or Baldur's Gate III's Gale, and think "well DANG, they sure seem autistic!" *because* representation for us is so freaking thorny. And on top of *all* of that, it's really uncomfortable, too, to watch autistic people talk about characters like this and have allistic people jump up and down and yell NO! There's a Gale subreddit where they were talking in comments about how much they dislike it that people see Gale as autistic because it's "romanticizing mental illness" and I didn't get into it but oh did I want to.
I think some of us might find it validating if a professional tells us we're correct about a character, and the flip side of that is how invalidating it is to have allistic people scold us for identifying with characters who aren't explicitly made out to be autistic. I think both of those things shouldn't happen. Professionals can't diagnose someone who a) doesn't exist and b) isn't their patient and c) *doesn't exist*. But given just how... rough... representation can be, how difficult it can be to find sympathetic representation, representation that's not just "oh, look at how brave and special they are!" or full of terrible, misguided stereotypes, and all that... yeah. I look at some of these characters and like to imagine they're like me.
Beautifully put
I'll just add that this is a great comment
Amen to this. I also feel it's much easier for us to empathise with characters that aren't explicitly stated to be autistic because of a couple of reasons:
1. If a character is openly outed as autistic it is most often shown from the outside perspective. Can't explain why that is. It also happens when you tell people that you are autistic. You make them take out their mental clipboards and check a predetermined list of what they expect from someone with that label. The worst part is that you also kind of do this yourself because you have been conditioned to know your diagnostic criteria.
2. We aren't reminded of their diagnosis: We don't see ourselves as weird or different. We feel like we are normal, so when someone shows up in a show who actually acts and seems to process emotion the same way as us, we feel validated and relate to the person.
That's just my experience, though, is it also yours?
Sincerely, a baby millennial :)
@@gracehaven5459 Thank you.
@@mylittlethoughttree Thank you very much. Sorry it was so long!
Bran confirmed to have the power of giving people autism??!!
It wasn't vaccines! It was tree boy all along!!!
I'm an autistic woman and to me, Helaena both did and didn't come across to me as autistic. I think the scene that hit strongest for me was the public funeral progress. The way that scene was shot, the overwhelming stimuli, her adversion to being touched, having Alicent try to touch her to calm her only to upset her even more - that's what a meltdown is like for me. Unless the show gives us more time with her though, it's a little difficult to tell for me what is meant to be ASD coding and what is her experiencing prophetic visions 24/7. The thing I've come to learn about ASD representation is that we clearly need a lot more of it, and a lot more of us acknowledging what it is, instead of letting it hang around as an unspecified "thing" or "quirk". Autistic people are wildly different. What seems like bad rep to one of us can easily be fantastic rep to another. You can't run down a checklist and go "yup, checked all the boxes, that's an autistic character!" Because we don't all experience the same set of symptoms at the same intensity. Funny enough, ASoIaF IS my special interest, and I've found you can read autistic traits into quite a few of the book characters. Stannis always came off that way to me as I was reading it, even though I'm nothing like him his rigid sense of justice and particularly his preference for saying exactly what he thinks and expecting others to speak plain in return jumped out at me. I think it's okay for autistic people to decide for themselves if a character is or is not autistic coded, but at the same time I wish they would outright tell us when they're going for that more often. It really sucks knowing most people who don't know any autistic people think about media like Rain Man or The Good Doctor and hold that up as "this is was autism is". :/
And, when I say that she also DIDN'T come off to me as autistic, I don't actually mean there are scenes that made me go "this isn't what an autistic person would do/say". I simply mean that there are things people are holding up as proof that she is, that I personally attributed to trauma. Her response to blood and cheese is a VERY realistic depiction of shock - I don't think the people who were confused about that or thought it was lackluster or strange have actually ever experienced a violent situation like that (thankfully). Again, just as you say in the video media is TELLING us how people react, with the screaming and crying and begging. Shock doesn't work that way, autistic or no.
Same here. Most of Helaena behavior is due to her visions that would overwhelm anyone.
Helaena is so obviously autistic that I'm convinced HotD has autists in the writers' room. Ain't no way a bunch of neurotypicals got the experience of autism that right all on their own. I was agnostic about it in the first season - I thought that maybe they were just trying to portray little-Helaena as a stereotypical "weird kid" and adult Helaena as sheltered and naïve. Then season 2 gave us that funeral procession and the moment where she focuses on the texture of the hops floating through the air to help her deal with the sensory and emotional overwhelm of everything else, and I went "oh." I read a lot of books and watch a lot of TV, and I can't remember ever seeing that particular coping mechanism portrayed that accurately.
As for the show not really digging into her character or giving her much screen time . . . that's probably how the character would want it. The character of Helaena spends her entire life wanting nothing more than to sink into the background and not be noticed by anyone because *being perceived* is uncomfortable for autists. It might even feel uncomfortable and voyeuristic if the show focused more on Helaena unless it was handled very, very carefully.
"no way a bunch of neurotypicals got the experience of autism that right all on their own". Don't underestimate the HOTD writers. It's possible they have loved ones with autism and depict it based on their autistic loved ones. Like how Rick Riordan based Percy Jackson on his own son with ADHD/dyslexia, and IMO did a pretty decent representation of ADHD/dyslexia.
Cool thanks so much for making this! I love your videos so much! I too was disappointed by her character portrayal in season two despite her like her older sister losing a child, hopefully season three will be more kind
If HBO continues to adapt the Targaryens reign, I hope they keep up Targaryens and nuero divergency.
I don't think it was fully intentional by George, but so many Targaryens show signs of neuro divergency. Maybe not Autism, but something as simple as Viserys having a special interest in building miniatures. Nuero divergency had genetic links and the endless list of possible trauma one can have from being nuerodivergent while in a royal court is Immense.
Autism is a spectrum so definitively saying any of the characters are autistic and/or nuero divergent is hard, but I do think showing many different characters that are like that could be incredible representation.
I'm also not claiming and Targaryen is nuero divergent, but many are 100% coded that way.
Ironically Paddy Considine (Viserys) is neurodivergent. He got diagnosed with Asperger's/autism.
In the us, I can’t diagnose autism or adhd. If I think my clients might have either one, I send them to a psychologist that does testing. Sure, I can diagnose but there are things that need a trained eye for all the reasons you’ve said. Now, if it was “just” trauma, the whole treatment would be different since she’s still in the family system that creates most of the trauma 🤷🏻♀️
Great video. Thank you for your thoughts and professional opinion.
More videos on the world of ice and fire pleeeease. It is nice to see your angle on the complex characters in their storylines. Also I like the rambling.
Thank you so much for your video. This is such a well rounded piece and great points. I am autistic and so are my children. We are all very different, as autism is a spectrum. I think she may be autistic, and in the real world, she shows enough traits to warrant an assessment.
I'm on the spectrum myself (light enough to have stayed decades under the radar), she definitely has some signs I can recognise.
I really appreciate a character that's autistic coded that's not ragingly stereotypical and really has their own personality. Especially a girl growing up in such a medieval style society, it's such an interesting, unique view to portray. I just wish she had gotten more time on screen.
So much of our minds and physical responses are misunderstood, generally.
In terms of trauma/adrenline responses most people know of fight, flight, freeze and fawn.
Others I have been learning about (that keep to the F theme because people love aliteration) are:
Fix, flop, faint, funster, friend and fib.
It has been so helpful to understanding my children better.
Fix? To try and fix the issue?
What's the difference between flop and faint?
What's funster?
What's the difference between friend and fawn?
What's fib?
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δcouldve types all those questions into google and got your answer immediately.
They are not your english teacher xD
@@Thebeezzkneezz. What a stupid comment.
I would rather a human being explain me, even if through a screen, with their own words, than googling it so I can read it on-line.
Live and let others be.
i was so happy to see how helaena in the show. it’s nice seeing them take a neurotypical character & obviously put her on the spectrum for the tv-show when they didn’t have to…the creators didn’t have to give us some of the sweetest autistic bug-girl rep i’ve ever seen, but they did anyway & i feel so seen bc of it
This is a very sensitive and informative look at this, thank you.
I think she is and i also think she is easily overwhelmed by the world cuz shes an empath. Like she can literally feel the emotions and stuff of others
as an autistic person myself i can hardly believe helaena is autistic mainly because of how she's written as a dragon dreamer. its hard for me at least to view her as autistic when you throw in magical superpowers in the mix, like is it actually that she's autistic or her brain has been fried due to her powers? its just too weird to reconcile the two for me nor do i really trust the writers to actually portray autism correctly despite the fact that its somewhat clear the writers are at least attempting to write her as autstic but its just not that believable to me over her clear existence of a plot device.
It can be both!
People with schizophrenia and autism in certain periods, areas, and positions in society were sometimes seen as, "Blessed." F
or example in (viking) migration-period scandinavian culture, people with delusions or schizophrenia or autism, they could become high priests due to their, "Prophetic," hallucinations, experiences, or otherwise.
It's another inspiration George R.R. Martin takes from history, and it's fascinating to both fairly faithfully represent neurodivergence in a pretty respectful way (autism not being used as a target for jokes, mockery and cheap laughs) and portray this certain aspect of decades long gone.
I for one think it is a fantastic representation of level 2 needs autism, and it doesn't belittle the autistic person portrayed either, it HUMANIZES them and makes them a genuinely sympathizable and likable character, which is EXTREMELY important especially in this day and age where autism is still mocked and used as an insult.
What a lovely video to check up on as I do chores. I feel like I'm with company, while listening to you & peak up to see somewhere I'd like to be♡
I have to credit the channel Dave's Walks for the background, all of them are beautiful and he kindly lets me use them as background. Is figured just showing the same few scenes of Helaena over and over this video would get repetitive
I'm with you on this one.
Personally I find it disturbing how many people fetishize these portrayals of "neurodivergence". In media you basically only get 1 of 2 flavors: either complete invalid, or misunderstood invalid with superpowers. There's nothing in between, no nuance. It's not really the show or movie's fault -- there just isn't enough runtime for nuance. But people still cling to this idea that they must be "represented" in media and fetishistically crave this need to relate to fictional characters. We've forsaken teaching our children empathy over glorifying self-representation and self-indulgence.
I like that Helena exists in this incarnation. I just wish people would take moment to chill and stop idealizing it.
Clinical psychologist here. Not an expert in autism assessment but I do see Heleana as someone who is probably autistic. I feel this way mostly because a lot of autistic people feel that way and can see themselves in her and I think that's important information. I see her possible autism as orthogonal to her being a dragondreamer. I think that autistic challenges with communication could make it difficult for her to engage with others and really share the content of her dragon dreams in a meaningful way. It seems that no one has any idea she has these prophetic visions until the Daemon scene followed by the Aemond scene. You'd think that someone would have noticed by now that the things she says come true. But she tends to say them sort of to the clouds. And she never circles back and clarifies that what has just happened is something she had seen would happen. I've seen some commentary that she is a Cassandra type. But I somewhat disagree with that. It isn't so much that people don't believe her. It's that she isn't connected enough with anyone around her to communicate effectively that she is having visions. She sort of makes these prophetic statements to herself most of the time. Until she straight up tells Daemon and Aemond what she has been seeing. I'd be curious to see if they explore how she got to that point. I'd love if season 3 opened with some kind of backwards look into Heleana's mind where we get to see her experience over the last season (and possibly even earlier) through her eyes. What does the world look like to her? How does she experience these visions? How does she make sense of them? And how did she go from having these vague prophecies that used a lot of metaphors and symbolism to having more of a concrete picture of events that are unfolding and will unfold? I do think that the way she is viewed by others is due to this sort of intersection she exists at, where she has these autistic traits AND she has prophetic visions. She might viewed quite differently and someone may have noticed her gift ("the sight") much sooner if she wasnt already viewed as socially odd with what others in that society seem to view as strange interests and speech for a young princess and queen.
Also, I should mention that I am a PTSD specialist. I totally agree with you that her response to Blood and Cheese is not a piece of evidence that she is autistic. Trauma is an experience that by definition is an aberration. Someone's reaction to it, especially in the moment, cannot be used as evidence of neurotypicality or neurodivergence. Because trauma is a relatively low base rate experience, establishing what a typical vs. atypical response to it is will always be nearly impossible.
Regardless of wether Helaena is or is not autistic (we can't never know for sure), I relate to her as an aspie or someone with mild autism.
She's always alone, with her bugs or scribbling stuff, which reminds me of myself when I was a little boy, I would just wander off into myself.
Helaena does the same, as opposed to hanging out with her handmaidens or anyone, really.
As I've grown older, I don't like to be touched by my mother, which causes friction, because she's a touchy feely person.
She can also see the future, which I feel ties into my intuition or the fact I can predict how something is gonna turn out based on the aura or feel of it.
She also mutters stuff, which I sometimes do, when I'm thinking in English or French with myself.
She feels a lot, but doesn't know how to express it.
And everyone thinks she's weird and no one pays her attention, even though they'd be gladder if they would.
This is one of the points I wish I'd stressed better. We can't know for sure, and it's kind of pointless arguing over whether she is or not, but that absolutely shouldn't stop people from relating to her, because that's a big part of what makes fictional characters so meaningful in the first place. Thanks for mentioning it here much better than I did in the video
I have been too afraid to tell Tony Teflon just how offensive his video on Helaena and autism is. Others have brought it up in private messages but I really have no idea how to respond. 1 - firmly states Hodor is autistic solely based on “he flaps his hands” in a few scenes, 2 - claims autism is something people can get from _brain damage_ or _severe emotional trauma?_ I don’t know what to say.
No matter what we do we’re wrong. It’s comparable to if he made a video claiming - in good faith, but ignorance - that Down Syndrome is contagious, like from sharing toilet seats. How the heck do we even begin to tell someone “you unintentionally said something really offensive”… without insulting them?
Hodor seems to have had a "magical TBI" (traumatic brain injury) and that significantly more aligns with what we saw of his character imo. Not autism. He must not be aware what a TBI is? Or think that it is synonymous with autism? But that is pretty insulting.
In my experience, sometimes you just have to say you said something offensive. I'd rather be told than continue hurting people, and I choose to believe most decent people feel the same.
I can't say I know the channel. My method was just to poke fun, hopefully in a way that still feels polite, but it's doubtful he'd see my video. Over the years, I can say a lot of people have corrected me in the comments over stuff, and I've always been grateful for it, so hopefully they'd feel the same, and if you're expressing it's a mistake made by someone with good faith, rather than suggesting he was deliberately being offensive, then I'd hope it's likely to be well received
I think she is neurodivergent in some form, maybe ADHD with her hyperfocus on bugs and sewing, Blood and Cheese event triggering depression and anxiety on her, and other things like don't liking to be touched or don't liking loud noises
I think she has a hard time telling her prophetic dreams from reality and staying in linear existence. But as she got older and has gotten more control over it she's starting to understand what is a dream and what is not. Her appearing to Daemon and bluntly telling Aemond his fate are her taking control of what she see's. She could still see something so traumatic that it break's her sanity but that remains to be seen.
personally i think the best evidence for helaena being autistic is that a lot of autistic people relate to her. if i had written helaena into the show myself, i would’ve argued literally everything about her is evidence she was intended to be on the spectrum.
i have never felt more seen by a character than by helaena. & I think allistic people should be careful not to overspeak too much & say she’s surely not autistic because it “can’t be proven 100%”. to doctors many of us aren’t autistic just bc we can’t be prove it 100%. others not seeing it doesn’t make us magically normal & make autism stop affecting our lives. great video 🩷🐉🪲
For Hodor it does seem rather clearly a trauma response?
Up until he got warged he appeared fully neurotypical.
Right? I was thinking "Magical TBI"
As an autistic person myself, i do believe that a ND person's pattern recognition abilities, combined with a lot of NT's lack thereof, could have led past time people to believe neurodivergent people have predicting abilities.
I myself have experienced situations where people asked me how i could have known sth would happen, but for me it was very obvious from comparison with how other things have played out.
Autistic or not, I wish she would just take her daughter and her dragon, fly to the summer islands and live happily studying exotic bugs. But I'm afraid that's not going to happen. 😢
I think Helena's fascination with the spider comes across as an interesting 4th wall break of sorts being that it is how we the viewers look at these characters, limited to their many eyes in the control of our hand, insignificant to the grand scheme that has already been weaved around them.
Even if she isn’t, it doesn’t really matter. What matters to me is that I find her relatable and a good representation of autistic traits, without it being directly stated for the audience. I think we need more representation of these traits, so it is more normalized and I feel less shame when I present these traits. Just my personal take
One thing we need to like get clear here, is that Helaena isn't Daenerys Targaryen or Sansa Stark; she doesn't rise from the ashes of her trauma as a more powerful woman. Witnessing the murder of her child causes her to succumb to a debilitating mindset where she's incredibly unstable and takes her own life because of it. There's nothing necessarily wrong with depicting a female character this way. Because people respond to trauma in different ways, and sometimes, they meet a tragic end. In a world where women are easy targets in a war, it's not implausible that this is the fate of Helaena's story. Also taking into account that, she's one of the few innocent people who are collateral damage, all because she was born on the wrong side of the family. Since she was described as the gentlest and kindest of her family. But honestly, Helaena has been one of my main favorite characters in this season 2 of HOTD, and as well one of the many who gets sidelined and is only important when it's time for her to be emotionally scarred. I think Phia Saban performance as Helaena is one of the best from the series.
I unfortunately think Healenas entire personality has been subsumed by her visions, to the point she ins't really an individual in the story and more a walkning plot device.
When you said you have had people that were dead set on there child is autistic really hit me as When I was a child my teachers were determined to have me be autistic.
I use to have separate lessons and other things. I never needed it but I was happy to get out of class.
I kinda of just believe them not questioning it as they were certain I was but when I got a bit older around year 6 I knew it wasn't I wasn't but they still all said I was and I was put in the lowest class in secondary school for people with issues. I hated it there the work was always way to easy never giving me a challenge and all my friends were in other classes. Every year I asked to be moved and never was. I'm 20 now and apart from the fact I like 40k nothing about me is in line with autistim but because my primary school was determined to have an autistic kid for there portfolio I never was challenged in school.
I don't know what simptoms they saw. I know when my farther died I use to act out and my mother's a depressed alcoholic so maybe it was me acting out from those things that convinced them I was I can't remember to well to be honest but yeah I get what you mean in this video 100%
Halaena is my favorite character in the entire show - especially because of the performance! But likewise, I wanted more of her! I think (or at least hope) the character suffered from the shortening of the season. I feel like they set up something that could have been as great as King Vicerys' arc. Hopefully they'll pick it up again in season 3
Finally a video talking about her! I've being searching for it almost everyday.
Helaena is so obviously autistic and yet I still finding tons of people saying "she's not autistic, just weird. And you're dumb.", "it's her dreaming powers lol" or even calling her evil because she "doesn't love her kids. She killed her son and didn't show grief"..... simply awful.
People love to talk a lot about things that they don't know.
As a neurodivergent myself (my brain oddness owns a few autistic traits) who met and take care of real autistics through years, it's so easy to realize Helaena is very different and yes, autistic.
We must also add the fact that she was raised in a chaotic toxic family, where they didn't receive many affection and experienced hard experiences from the cruel world they live in.
The trauma is there and it's part of her personality now, but that doesn't take away she's autistic; actually, neurodivergent people tend to live more traumatic experiences that "normal" folks.
Neurotypicals, for some reason, deny that her autism and powers are compatible and can coexist; they go for an "all or nothing" vision, obstinated in thinking that "it can be only of two thing, none both".
Honestly, that's stupid and I don't how they don't realize it.
Good video, and such a beautiful place you're living in!
I love it 🌳🌲🌿🌺
I believe her deliverance of the prophetic visions is a touch telling about her inner state. When she says "he'll have to close an eye," it's songy and merry. When uttering "there's a beast beneath the boards" to her mother, she is utterly terrified reliving it through her memory of the vision. I do not think these are just PTSD related. She seems disassociated.
I really dislike this teflon guy. He's the quintessential example of someone who knows very little of anything and yet has so many certainties about everything. Living incarnation of Bukowski's quote: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence"
People giving kudos for point out that could be a trauma response, uff, I'm not saying that there is true in that, but I think people asking if she is autistic don't do it only base on how she acts under stress but also how she acts when she is in non, especially at the beginning of the serie as a child she does not seem shy at all, but rather no interest in humans or normal conversations, she rather behaves in a way that gives autistic vibes, also you I good to point out that most autistic that are not diagnosed at young age, are traumatize later in life because they have to go through life as if they weren't, and in the world of Ice and Fire mental health is not a thing, so they just think she is weird so maybe going through all the things we see in the serie just sinks her deeper.
But this is my own take.
I would just add the trauma response example is the glaring one, but most of her behaviour when not under stress is also pretty consistent with symptoms of trauma. Trauma isn't the event itself but the ongoing experience/reaction to it, the part of your brain that continues reacting to it, even years after and often during moments of safety, so the argument she has trauma does go a lot further than that, and does make diagnosis difficult. I'm not than certain the writer intended her to be autistic, and in the real world she'd definitely be worth assessing, but trauma is still another very possible option. Or both together
When you watch interviews with actress, Phia, they have very similar way they talk and move. She's also uncomfortable in certain situations. Wish Haelena smiled more, because Phia is so cute when she smiles!
I believe I'm on the autistic spectrum since I barely spoke until I was 14, & also have those "dreams" & high sensitivity that can be coined as psychic. It's part of me, happened since childhood. As an autistic person not diagnosed my entire life, I endured subsequent traumas, so I'm also suffering from PTSD, & since most females have to wear masks & conform no matter what, it's way harder to be recognized as autistic & even to assess it ourselves without the outside world seeing it. So basically my take on her, as most female on the spectrum, is that I believe most of us are also suffering PTSD since we're downgraded & gaslight all our lives, our opinions don't matter, since it's so hard to fight for it more often than not so we give up, & we usually can't relate to most & see true intentions of the people around us, that can lead to many traumas. Basically, I believe that in most cases in females, PTSD is linked to autism as a consequence that makes it harder to spot. I hope it'll help.
You are so good at research. Would you consider doing a deep dive on AMCs Interview with the Vampire and discuss the themes of race, sexuality and power in this horror series??? The show is amazing and deserves a deeper analytical deep dive.
The whole 'the books are written by maesters so they're unreliable' is such a weak line of argument. It discredits the writing while lending more weight to the show than it deserves. I've literally come across people who claim the show is what 'really' happened. The show is so far away from the book at this point that I think it's impossible to see them as the same thing. The show is very loosely based on the book. It's fan fiction, which takes far more from the previous show than it has any relation to the Rogue Prince or the Princess and the Queen. Honestly I think you're safe to read the book now as we're so far away from the events of the book I don't think you can be spoiled.
Two major snags with anyone in any fantasy show: 1) the fantasy itself 2) the actor's decisions
Her prophetic powers are going to have a huge impact on her mental health and how her thought process works.
And the actress is the person who is 'not making eye contact' and choosing a lot of the mannerisms. She may have been influenced by seeing autistic traits [or media depictions of them] and consciously or not emulating them within her acting.
It doesn’t matter if it’s autism. She is neurodivergent in the series as she doesn’t have the same type of brain as everyone else
What an excellent video
I always looked at persons like that in the general SoIaF universe, like more or less how neurodivergent people would be considered in the middle ages in real life. Ofc irl they'd be branded as the crazy people of the village, or even worse as witches and be executed for it. But in Martin's world, where prophecy and divination has some validity - even though it's often misinterpreted - we can operate under the hypothesis of "what if all these neurodivergent people in the middle ages had indeed a gift, and that's why they were neurodivergent?". Like, the people that we - from the real world - recognize as neurodivergent, and their conditions have a diagnosis and a name, in this fantasy world act like that due to some sort of gift. Sure it throws a spanner in the gears of what we know from real life, and how it's depicted in this show, but it's a bit more tricky like that. I'm sure that, if someone irl had the prophetic powers as depicted in the show (if they were a real thing that is), they wouldn't be nonchalant about it, going about their day, drinking coffee while doing their needlework and be completely socially and functionally normal and regular. If prophecy and divination of any sort was indeed real, I'm sure the people experiencing it would appear a bit peculiar as if they have a chip on their shoulder. Experiences like that, especially seeing them materialize, would centainly affect one's emotions and view of life, as well as general behavior.
Or those neurodivergent people become experts in their special interest and become highly respected valuable members of their community. Especially if they're born into wealthy families who can give them the best education possible. Aemond, Jaime, and Tyrion all prove how only wealth can save disabled people from prejudice. The Lannisters acknowledges this, saying they would've killed Tyrion at birth for his condition if he wasn't a Lannister.
Hi, I’ve found this channel before, but was really enraptured by the Dr. Phil videos on the channel. I looked through the channel, and I didn’t know if you have done a video about the Tom Hanks movie “A man named Otto”, it’s an incredible movie. If you have made a video about it, I must’ve missed it when I was looking through the channel. If you haven’t, this sounds really weird for me to simply ask, but do you think you would ever make a video about it?
I wanted to share two very different thoughts. First, I think Haelaena's characterization is one of the things that suffered during the shooting of the show because 1) the writers knew a strike was going to happen and sped through writing 2) once the strike was happening, people were filming but they were allowed to do rewrites as they were working to fix the peoblems that started popping up. Not that it's an excuse, but it' s my way of hoping that next season they might be able to do better!
Second, I am not autistic but i work as a general education teacher. A lot of my students are ADHD, Autistic, or "show symptoms". Perhaps more of them are "showing symptoms" because many are in the generation that was really affected by COVID fears from parents and being made to stay at home at a very young age (leading to, perhaps, trauma). Thr fact is, from the perspective of someone who works with kids like that in the general setting, trying to help them like I do all kids, the "diagnosis" doesn't matter much beyond convincing other teachers to provide those accommodations as well after they leave my class. You look at a child, work with them, and realize, "ah, this one needs accommodations to make school better." If someone tells me, "this kid might have autism," all it will do is help me think of a list of accommodations the kid needs or help me understanding their persepctive a bit better in some situations so I can respond better.
Keeping that in mind, it makes me look and Haelaena and say, "does it matter if she's officially autistic? Does it matter that it might be her dreams or trauma?" Because, at the end if the day, she is still an amazing, deep, kind character that others overlook because they don't understand her. If they just tried to understand her better and see the world as she does, they could do better for her and also learn from her. At the end of the day, a diagnosis doesn't matter, it's how we treat people.
But that's just my perspective as a teacher!
I absolutely agree on your point about how Helaena's possible autism coding could conflict with her dragon dreams.
I feel like making Helaena just a normal autistic girl who's being neglected and harmed by her family's behavior would have made her story a lot more powerful, tragic, and relatable.
But instead, now that Helaena is portrayed as standing out both for things autistic people commonly experience as well as her magic powers, it feels like the two are being conflated, which is what I feel a lot of the audience is going to take away from her character.
Instead of her being just a regular girl who behaves a little different and is misunderstood for it, now it comes off more as her being weird not because it's normal for somebody to act like this, but because she's some magical witch with mysterious intentions.
I've seen people theorizing that Helaena is not human, that she is some magical witch that is just watching her family go down, that Alys Rivers is her magical avatar, or even that it's the other way around, and it's frustrating because as someone who is autistic, I'd like for autistic people in media to not be othered so much.
She is already othered a lot by the other characters, so I just wish she wouldn't also be othered by the writing.
Edit: I'm not saying Helaena is canonically autistic btw, the same would still apply if she's someone with trauma
I appreciate you.
I haven't watched HotD - I'm just a fan of the books and your channel - and I'm autistic. I can understand why people are eager to identify w/ a young autistic character. Then after S2E1 came out I started to feel bothered that Helaena coming across as a distant mother to a lot of viewers, and her reaction to trauma, was one of the reasons the autism dialogue seemed to ramp up, and just speaking for myself I'm not looking for anymore cold mother / magic superpower autism tropes
i know what will happen to her unless the show doesn't go there .I like Helaena and feel for her.In any of my own fan fiction stories she will be well treated and not suffer what she does in the show.Nor does her son get murdered.
I was already diagnosed and well informed about autism when I watched season 1, and I don’t remember interpreting Helaena as autistic. And that alone makes me question whether it was good representation, especially because my main complaint about HOTD was that I couldn’t relate to any of the characters. Probably why I haven’t gotten around to season 2 yet.
Having looked at some scenes of Helaena again just now, I can see what people are talking about, but I don’t think it’s implemented well. It feels like the show is sort of checking boxes with her autism symptoms, whereas the defining attribute of her character that you see again and again is the visions. She is basically a mouthpiece for a higher power. And I think that’s dehumanizing because it doesn’t leave much room for her to have her own personality, thoughts and feelings. If you’re going to portray autism, then it needs to be actual autism and not some kind of supernatural ability that superficially resemble autism.
In conclusion Autism is a land of contrast. Thank You.
The question I have regarding you saying they haven't acknowledged it enough that she might be autistic is how would they have done that? It's a medieval setting, they can't say explicitely that she is, at least not in universe. I really liked the video, maybe you have something in mind, I don't have an idea how they would do that off the top of my head
It's not to directly acknowledge autism, but it's to explore who she is. Helaena is very different to her family and the dynamics there are barely explored, neither is her emotional arc this season. Someone who feels ignored by her family and doesn't understand her dreams, then understanding them clearer, speaking up to her brother. I think it feels too loose an arc to really explore Helaena as a person. The trauma of the first episode was largely forgotten by the end of the season, and I barely know what Helaena thinks about anything.
It's not to have autism directly acknowledged, it's to have her as a person matter in the story for her sake, rather than just being a plot device for dreams. I'm being quite harsh on the show there but I do think it could've done more
I would also rather them nod to her story than complete butcher it or eat off more than they can chew. THAT IS NOT to say I think the writers are not good but I think the story is already so complicated
I like Helana & respect the performance of the actress but I’m not a fan of the magical autism trope as this def plays into annoying & crappy stereotypes. This is just rain man in fantasy setting & it’s kinda icky. I’ve heard ppl even say autism is a Chevkov’s gun and it has to matter so it gives her dragon dreams which is just… I hate it. Like autism shouldnt have a story justification anymore than having brown hair or a character wearing an earring. And the show making Helana so powerful with the visions does undercut idea she just happens to be autistic & have dragon dreams cause nobody else in continuity is naturally as powerful as her or autistic.
Makes me love her even more
I would take any new scenes over Damon having his 15th dream sequence.
Babe wake up, new thought tree content.
Helaena doesn't struck as me an autistic person but given her visions is enough PTSD. I mean she is literally saw her child death at Blood and Cheese. Helaena already went through grief process while the child was still living.
I think her acting like this is also a little deeper cause its a fantasy and Helaena has seen all of the future basically...imagine seeing all of that horror and being unable to stop it or do anything in that martter...you are just doomed to know that these horrible things will happen, in the end of season 2 we see her more and more accepting this tho , seems like she even forgave Daemon eventhough he murdered her innocent son , how is someoneable to do that other than Helaena understands that Daemon is just a piece in a story and this was inevitable
One problem with the evidence supporting the claim is the fact the evidence often correlates more with lower functioning and for boys. For girls, it comes out in a different way, where the girls arent anti social, but rather opposite, trying to fit in. Higher functioning girls, like Helaena would be considered, tend to know their weird quirks and do their best to hide them as to not bring attention to the weirdness. It can backfire, like youre trying too hard, but thats masking. Heleana doesnt mask, like at all, despite being in a higher position where masking would def be expected, like she should already be taught as a royal, she has to put on a farce a lot, pretend to be happy when shes not, kind of thing. So masking should come extra easy for her as she wouldve legit been taught to pretend to be someone else anyways. But she doesnt. Instead, she bags her ears, she avoids eye contact, and...she likes bugs. This is what is described of a typical boy whose lower functioning. She has sensory issues, which...most people actually do. (Think about how you feel with the nail scraping down a chalkboard. Thats a sensory issue.) She avoids eye contact, which, again...she would at least try for the sake of masking.
Like none of it actually points to a high functioning girl, which she would def be.
Also, keep in mind schedules are also a big deal, and even for higher functioning, changes would be absolutely draining. As a royal, shes subjected to constant changes in her daily schedule. She handles it fine.
Im sorry, but even on the highest end of the spectrum, i just dont see it. It also doesnt help her character in the books is completely different from the character on screen, who DID scream at the death of her son, and became absolutely inconsolable because of the choice she made, to the point of ...well...thats possible spoiler, though...for all we know, HBO will change it and have her go to battle.
Also, you can argue its a history book all you want. Certain things ARE cannon. How her son died and her character overall IS cannon. There is absolutely NO question, no bias, nothing. And to be clear, i mean who she was as a person, not exactly everything thats supposed to happen. Except Blood and Cheese, that was also pretty fuking cannon. Fr. NO ONE questioned or acted biasedly about her reaction and which son, or how it happened. The way history books are read, this makes it CANNON.
Im done ranting now.
I date/have dated a man on the spectrum. It is very difficult. He is very difficult to date. What makes me sad is to see him try to mimic having emotions he doesn't understand. I know he doesn't understand so it makes me even more difficult. I do not think she is on the spectrum. I think she is a "fortune teller" or religious zealot. She is able to sense emotion. This makes the diagnosis difficult.
They really did Helaena dirty this season. It's like she's a different person every episode lmao
Hahaha why did you edit the video as if the guy kept interrupting you! That is TOO funny!
W video. W comment for the youtube gods
As a professional Autistic researcher and activist in the field of Autism study, I would advise you not to use "with autism" when talking about our neurodivergent because it causes confusion about this essential part of an autistic person's inner being and representation. If you want to give us a more humane face, then call us autistic or consciously autistic or any other more humane definition. I admire your nuanced approach to this topic; just do not rely on the DSM-5 definitions next time regarding autism because we want to move beyond dehumanizing definitions since autism wasn't and will never actually be a disorder. thank you, Tzuf Ben Ishay
I completely agree with all of this, thank you for commenting. Part of it I think is how rushed and rambling my approach was to this video, there are various little things I said that I worried was worded badly or would be taken the wrong way, mostly that tends to be me overthinking my videos but it's an important point, so thank you
good video
Poor Helaena :(
I can relate
My name is indeed Helena.
What is your thumbnail?
What do you mean?
Unrelated but..."Cockington" 16:34
2:59 no, wrong. Autism is genetical. YOU ARE BORN WITH IT. And mostly if you have autism you can be sure that other family members are on the spectrum too although some of them can have less pronounced treats. (In my case i have autism, my sister have autism and its almost sure that my mother have it too although she refuses to get diagnosis, its also almost sure that mother of my mother had it too and she passed it to all her children). Its not trauma causing it although as an autistic invidual you are more prone to trauma even from small things that will never affect “normal” people.
Ok at least the host corrected it later.
The mind has to also be more like the body doesn’t it? Maybe not but if so, wouldn’t it be possible to develop autism or something of the sort later in life?
Bran wasn’t born crippled but he still is seen as such.
Can you see my jumbled up off target point? 😂
Helena is my name.
She is not autistic she is completely random just like every other character in that shitshow
Helaena is not autistic though... she's a dragon dreamer on her targaryen side and a greenseer on her hightower side which is why she connects to daemon during his vision at the weirwood tree in harrenhall... Because she can see and dream past and future events, in that way, she exists outside of time which the other characters tend to overlook.
Does Rhaenyra give birth to a malformed baby due to inbreeding? You would think so... but also no... the targaryens give birth to still born malformed offspring that have dragon features such as tails, small wings, missing eyes, and scales because it is a reflection of the old valaryen blood magic that was used to create dragons, just as some dragon eggs hatch malformed creatures because it is a reflection of the 3 creatures in old valeria that were used to create dragons.
Please go read the books.
I don't quite get your point. She is a dragon dreamer and many Targaryens have been and have given birth to malformed or scaly infants. I have read all of asoiaf several times and whilst I was advised not to read f&b, I have still been informed about a lot of it. You're not wrong but I don't see how any of that discounts whether or not the writers of the tv show intended to depict her as autistic. Not to say she is, because I do raise scepticism, even including talk of her dreams, but she can still easily be both, it's not one or the other and, as well say, tying magical abilities to autism is a painful, very generic trope in stories that Helaena could easily be an example of in the show
How are you get away from me
I work with kids on the spectrum and have for about 10 years.
I should add that I don't diagnose.
It never occurred to me that Helena has ASD. To me, everything I saw were trauma responses and introversion.
I could see her being neurodivergent, but I don't think it's obvious. Nor do I think it's the most likely explanation.
When I've been in a traumatic situation, I've mostly froze. Then got on with it.
I think those two are the most likely possibilities, but we certainly can't rule either out, and I don't think there's enough evidence to be certain. Part of me views it as trauma but that's likely also because I know more about it, but I imagine the writers and Phia Saban had ASD in mind
@@mylittlethoughttreeabsolutely. It's all speculative. It's just that, with my experience, she just doesn't appear to be obviously on the spectrum. I haven't worked with a ton of high functioning ASD people, but I HAVE worked with some. I think Helena exhibits qualities that mirror trauma much more.
I've had a few clients who have had both severe trauma and ASD, and their profiles were very similar.
Helena doesn't really exhibit those traits.
But I dunno. She's a fictional character on a fantasy show. You're probably right that the writers had ASD in mind.
Bruh! It’s not that deep! She a greenseer, who are already a little odd
It's so obvious her tv part was written on the spectrum to get soo many new people to sympathize with her. I'm really sick of the "I can relate to her so much" crap. I have been assaulted, so do I have to sympathize with everyone that has been aswell? And where are the ones that sympathize with Heleana for that, being obviously married to a monster? Nowhere.
Heaven's sake! And most of those people don't care about the magical part.
Where is the admiration to having a dragonrider and a dreamer in the show?They don't see the little details worked in in her character. And the obvious reason why she would be coded on the spectrum at all..
Most of them have never been tested anyway. As you say, people say it because they "know". And now the children have grown with that in mind. The world gets simpler on it's own, you don't need a label.
And for all the people who say they knew it all long; GRRM already said, show isn't the book.
I kinda understand why the book version is so different from the show counterpart. In F&B, she is described as a happy girl before her marriage and a loving mother to her children. In the show she is shy and depressed teenager girl from the start. The key difference is in the book, viserys was a present father for her and often played with her children. You might say Aegon wasn't a supporting husband but at least helaena had viserys. The TV version is quite an absent father and helaena is basically left alone. Of course Alicent part is also important in this.
But even Aegon and Helaena had a relatively good relationship. They slept in the same bed and only both broke down after Blood and Cheese.
And Aegon is clearly trying not to be an absent father.
I think show Helaena is likely autistic but book Helaena isn't.