Great discussion. I appreciate you starting from a position of PURPOSE. This just doesn't get discussed enough. Many of us are out there looking for "perfect" gear without taking thought for what the gear will actually be asked to do.
Exactly. I've been able to find less popular stuff lately, but 9x19, 5.56, .223, .40...that stuff is all hard to get. If everyone has the same chambering, it's actually harder to get ammo, not easier.
@@ryandavis9794 Good, I don't have anything chambered in 7.62x39 but I've stocked up on a few odd cartridges as well. Sadly my 9mm is sitting on a very small supply atm.
I know right. Also i'm gonna start looking at all the different 5.56 loads. I normally just grab what ever is cheep. I'm gonna start looking at some of the hunting/Match loads.
Just zeroed my Grendel yesterday, the recoil is very tame. So far I don’t have anything bad to say about it except not a lot of places carry that round. But hey the more people that want it makes more places start carrying it. It’s almost moving out of wildcat cartridge status.
I have built 3 of the 6.5 Grendel uppers now. 12.5, 16. and 24. the 12.5 does everything a 16 inch 5.56 does. You will really love the 12.5 and it will take white tails out to 300-350 yards.
I bought my first AR in 5.56 several years ago & just finished building my first AR. After researching for WEEKS, I chose to build the 6.5 Grendel because of all the advantages you listed...& because i already own the creedmore in a bolt action. I absolutely love them both. Now if I could just find ammo for the Grendel. Lol
It is very important to note that all the ballistics being presented for the 6.5 Grendel are from a 24 inch barrel. When you plug in the statistics from a 16 inch barrel you get much much different results. My 6.8 115 gr out of 16 inch barrel gets 2550 FPS while the 6.5 Grendel 123gr only gets 2350 FPS out of the 16 inch barrel.
People don't realize this very important point. I use an 18 inch barrel for my 6.8 and I find it works wonderfully. I simply didn't want to deal with a 24" barrel and don't intend to shoot over 300 yards in the first place.
I strongly recommend the 6.8 SPC. I did some through fact finding prior to doing a build that strayed away from the NATO round. The 6.8 SPC has the strongest potential for finding its way into military adoption, having already been adopted by some foreign forces already. This year alone, 6.8 builds we have built successfully harvested 2 Antelope, 2 Deer, and a cow elk. Believe it or not the cow elk was at 422 yards. I shot my Muley buck at 355 yards. My problems with the 6.5 Grendel are the two differing bolt faces, bolts being damaged under the high pressure load, longer barrel requirement for performance, case shape and feeding issues in the platform. 6.8 SPC is at this point the only round I would invest into the platform while straying from the 5.56. Awesome video rex! I recommend you to everyone. Literally the best content.
Denny Ducet actually 6.8 has worse ballistics compared to 6.5 and even 5.56. 5.56 is flatter shooting will eventually surpass it in energy after 300 yards 6.8 projectiles have shitty ballistic coefficients
Will Terry , curiously enough, that's pretty much the case. Reckon I do find it odd that 6.5mm and 7mm have high to extremely high bc projectile available while 6.8 .277 cal are so lacking. Lol must be a nasty communist plot against the. 277 6.8mm shooters. Lmbo 🤣
For ME, 300blk is my go to self defense cartridge. For so many reasons. Firstly, the compact platform (9inch barrel). Fully compatible with standard mags (running full 30 capacity). Versatility is off the charts. Starting with 110gr supers that are excellent out to 300 yards. As a self defense tool, I don't ever expect shooting that far anyway. Would it even be justified? Variable supers all the way up to 155gr. Same firearm with a can running 220gr subs out to 200 yards and it's Hollywood quiet. And yes, I know guys extend the ranges I've listed. Just being conservative.
a 220 subsonic is moving really slow, so distance will be a killer. 200 yards would be pushing it. You don't shoot a 44 mag at 200 yards when it's supersonic. How do you get one to be accurate at 200 yards when it's subsonic. Probably outstanding for close ranges though. You can't beat size and weight. That's why I carry a 1911 45 instead of a 9mm. If I'm shooting out past 100, I probably won't be shooting subsonic.
TexanUSMC8089 that's a bad comparison due to BC differences. .308 225gr can have a bc of .640 where as the 44 mags 240 grain is a round .200. What does that mean? it means that while the 44 mag will lose over 400fps by 200yrds the 300blk only lost 70fps. I'm not saying the 300blk is a great long range hunting round, I'm saying that they hold their energy incredibly well and bullet drop is consistent and predictable. i don't think the 480fpe it would be carrying at 200 yards is that much different the 550fpe it's carrying at the muzzle
Yeah, the 300 AAC got the short end of the stick on the charts in this video. I am betting that he used a short barrel and 125gr cartridges for making the chart, even though 10.5"-16" barrel 1:8 twist and 110-115gr is the sweet spot for 300 AAC.
So, how about 1 nice lower matched to 3 Uppers: .223 Wylde Chamber 16in barrel with a 1:8 twist for SHTF 6.5 Grendel with a Scoped, Rifle Length Barrel for Sniping and Hunting 300 Blackout SBR Suppressed for Covert, Indoors, and Patrol Sounds like a good setup, or am I off base here?
I'd probably just go with a .223 wylde 18" and a SBR 300 blackout. with the Grendel you'll need different parts and different mags. if you really want to reach out to 1,000K, I'd just opt for a compact bolt gun and a 300 blk.
Youll never take a 1k shot anyways in SHTF. Engagements will be 500 yards and in. You wouldnt be able to ID positively well enough at 1k yards. Also are you just going to shoot anyone you see at range that isnt threatening you..? Its unrealistic. Stick to the 556 which is massively prevalant, parts are massively prevalent etc. Basically everyone and their mother in SHTF is going to have an AR platform so scavenging is going to be a non issue.
Unless you have a crystal ball you don't know what range a person might shoot at. Might be shooting at blue helmets. I say, buy every gun you can afford. If you have to bug out, you'll probably have to leave a bunch behind, but until then? There's no way to know what might come in handy.
Replace 300BLK w/454 SOCOM or Beowulf, and I think you have it. (or even pump shotgun w/subsonic slugs, or 7.62x39 w/154gr subsonic or 45ACP are MORE versatile & commonly-found in times of scarcity -- the shotty can also breach doors/send flash-bangs/CS/incendiary rounds/scatter...etc and is WAY cheap -- and all these except 7.62x39 are more powerful subsonic than 300BLK). I also might just go for a 10.5" Grendel so it matches magazines of the 16" -- *10.5" Grendel has as much muzzle-energy as 16" 5.56, so he "stays in the fight" slightly BETTER at medium ranges as a 16" 5.56 (due to Grendel's 123gr higher BC than 77gr 5.56's BC: they START with same muzzle-energy; Grendel RETAINS that energy further out).* But your 10.5" Grendel guy will be WAY advantaged to the 16" 5.56 in cars/CQB/tunnels/other small spaces or easier on knees/ankles as a patrol rifle. He'll have MORE compatibility w/your 16" Grendel guy(s). But if you happen upon unguarded 5.56 rounds and can't ALSO confiscate or ally w/some neighbors who have a RIFLE that's 5.56, woe unto you insofar as "compatibility". If your subsonic is the 155gr 7.62, at least you also can re-form the brass to 6.5G. And if you confiscate some 7.62 ammo and 300BLK ammo (approx equal odds; they're both ~3.5% of usa's ammo sales), the 7.62x39 is way stronger in the supersonic realm, only slightly weaker subsonic. ...or you can just put a "broomhandle" buttstock on 10mm/45ACP pistol, if there's no more laws, use that for your subsonic at WAY less weight & cost.
I've always thought .243/6mm would be about perfect. However, all my "battle weapons" are chambered in current NATO calibers specifically for the ammo resupply reason. AND, I resent being called an "old timer", lol.
I went with 5.56x45mm NATO for a few reasons. It can take both 5.56 and .223, as well as .22LR (with conversion kit that's a simple BCG and mag swap). Right away, this gives my rifle superb flexibility in a SHTF scenario, as well as just a general purpose rifle. Due to the light weight of 5.56/.223 and especially .22LR, I can carry a lot of ammo in the same space and weight of less ammo of another type. All 3 calibers are also super common, and very cheap, giving me lots of training. As it stands now, I can frequently ping 8" steel "head shot" gongs even at 450 yards with irons, and within 200 yards, I can nail the 8" gongs every time, save for the occasional flyer (I use Magtech ball ammo, so nothing fancy). While the .22LR conversion kit is about as quiet as if I were running a suppressor, I'd still limit the use of my rifle for hunting in favor of trapping, which is a far more effective means to hunt in a SHTF scenario. I would also not be concerned about my rifle ever being a security/defensive weapon, nor for taking deer, as that's the role my 12ga Mossberg 500 is for. I think a 5.56 AR-15 paired with a 12ga pump shotgun, and whatever sidearm you prefer is probably the best survivalist combo you can have. Heck, with the 28" barrel and improved cylinder choke on my Mossberg 500, deer slugs are plenty accurate and powerful even at 150 yards, the furthest I've tested being 200 yards, which is WAY more than you need to hunt deer or run security. And again, if I need quiet shots for hunting, I'm pretty good with a 55-60# recurve bow out to 75 yards. Archery is probably king in CoWC, as you can make your own weapons and ammo, assuming you've studied how, and it'll really help with firearm ammo conservation. Ultimately, the less you have to rely on firearms, the better you'll be in such a scenario. As for long range shooting, I'm on the fence about buying a 6.5 Grendel upper, or instead buying an used or mil surp .30-06 or .308 for the same price. As much as I'd love to get a Grendel upper, it seems more practical to get a full size rifle running the bigger ammo. My use for such a weapon would be for recreational 1,000 yard shooting, and maybe recreational hunting, not SHTF or CoWC scenarios. I do like my brother's Winchester XPR in .30-06, though I may go with Savage or something else. Still researching. Don't want to spend more than $500, 'cause I still need money to buy an optic and of course ammo.
The 6.5 Grendel bolt is too weak for heavy duty applications, it has nothing to do with cost(was that supposed to a joke, Brendan? nothing costs too much for the military)
Great video, the Grendel also has a Advantage of inexpensive steel cased ammo. Although you do specify a AR15, in my opinion 7.62 Nato would be preferred as a SHTF rifle since it so much more versatile. In regards to Penetration, effectiveness in Hunting/Survival situations and widespread in civilian and military uses. As for weapons I would probably consider FAL because of it’s use more than any other throughput the world especially South America. The AR10 because of it’s similarities to AR15. And M14 because of it’s continued but limited use in the US military.
Yea, 5.56 is gonna be the best for worst case scenarios. Thats why you can have different uppers and different rifles all together for the fancy stuff.
I think the shtf cartridge would really be a toss-up between 556 and 762x39 the sheer amount of both would make either one viable I chose 7.62x39 myself and a 6.5 Grendel for a long range config
Outperforms 6.8 in every respect. Downsides over 5.56? Need a longer barrel for best efficiency. Standard mags hold 25 instead of 30 rounds. Steel case ammo can be got for as little as $0.28 per round. Barrels and rifles are readily available for not a whole lot more than 5.56, although, like any other precision rifle, you've got to go up in price for the really good ones. (of course, the same is true for 5.56 barrels)
Wolf Military Classic steel case plinking ammo as low as $136 per 500 plus shipping. Berdan primed, of course. I haven't got to play with it yet, but it promises to be decent plinking stuff, and I wouldn't have issues out to 300 yards or so.
I love these videos, but not for the reasons one may expect. It makes my day knowing there are people out there who would literally shit their pants and phone their governor if they were to see subjects like this being talked about and information like this being spread. :)
Such people would shit themselves and be totally blind-sided when their precious government turns on them. Much like the millions of communist party supporters who weren't "communist enough" during the Soviet Union, and were sent to the gulags to die alongside the tens of millions of others who would be worked to death all in the name of "fairness" and "compassion." It amuses me that people who support commies like Bernie will actually say I'm ignorant for thinking Bernie is a communist (despite overwhelming evidence that he is), and they act like having tyrants in power could never go wrong. These are the same people who tell me I don't need a gun because we have cops, then turn around and say cops are untrustworthy racist murderers. I'm just like, "Yo, are you suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance, or are you seriously that mentally retarded?" I suppose that's why they call marijuana "dope," after all. Bunch of brain-dead dopes.
For the AR15: I built a “red dawn” AR in 7.62x39 with the thought process of most enemies will be bringing plenty of that ammunition with them. When it comes to standing without support I am a 100 yard shooter so I decided to take the extra energy near vs better b.c.
Very well thought out. I think the best part of this video is the question, "what are you going to use it for?" I'm surprised you didn't come up with use cases for the 7.62x39 (or even 5.45x39). I know those are AK traditional. However, they satisfy cost and availability requirements also. I'm not sure about magazine compatibility however. That is a question I would love an answer for. Also, the 7.62x39 can do the same thing as the .300 AAC Blackout which is derived from the .300-221 Fireball which is derived from the .300 Whisper. The one limitation I see is good bullets in .311 diameter for hand loaders. For a SHTF rifle, I think a solid case can be made for the XM193 and M855 cartridges. POI is a bit different though, even from a 16" barrel at only 100 meters. The 77gr loads need a 1:8 or 1:7 twist and should be launched from a 20" barrel, IMO. You can probably get away with 18" at shorter distances. I'm currently getting acquainted with a 16" 1:9 barrel which probably won't handle the 77s but may work with 69s. I'm still playing with this stuff. I learned on an M16-A1 and then had a rather long hiatus. The possibilities now are amazing. Logistically I would favor the 5.56x45 chambering. Just choose the right bullet for the job and barrel length & twist. Thumbs up and subscribed.
I was looking at picking a few 77gr rounds but you think a 20" is needed? I have a 16 and don't want to give up the length for something longer though it would compliment the M193 I like to use.
In a shtf/mad max senario it won't matter to me. If you shot that much ammo and are still alive chances are there will be a 556 rifle laying on the ground you could pick up along with ammo.
Jeremy Weber and there will also be other cartridges around also due to people not needing it. Imagine raiding a building looking for 5.56 and all you find is 6.8 or 6.5 due it people that came before you couldn’t use it, but now you can, so stock what you can.
Thanks for the great videos. 300 blk and 7.62x39 should also have an advantage for shorter barreled rifles, which could be used for applications like home defense, close quarters combat, pdw or covert use requiring a sbr. These calibers burn out their powder more quickly and don't lose as much power in shorter barrels.
For me, it's 6.5 Grendel. This cartridge gives the AR platform real teeth! No longer a 300M range carbine, but a 1,000M RIFLE, with terminal velocity passed 1200M. (This using the 123 grain bullet.) It's 308 (better than M80!!!) performance with _half the recoil!!!_ How can you not love that? For under 400M, my choice is 7.62X39. It's very common in the USA too! Lots of people want more punch than the 5.56N. As for Home Defense, an M-1 Carbine with soft point bullets is plenty. No recoil! I've shot them since I was 8 years old!!! _Anyone_ can use the "warbaby".
One underlying message, and I suppose I arrived at that through winnowing is that the AR-platform allows one to reduce the armory to perhaps a 1-2(as backup) fully built lowers, with assorted uppers for specific uses. For AR-15, .223 Wylde and 6.5 Grendel certainly seem to cover the most ground, with 300BLK subsonic for indoor applications. The former covers closer range with slightly improved precision with .223 and mass availability of 5.56 NATO [and convertibly to 22 LR for certain low cost training application], and 6.5 Grendel dedicated to longer reach applications where precision and terminal energy stand out.
great video. Can you make another video along the same lines for the AR-10 variants. .243, .6.5 creedmoor, 260 rem, 7mm08, etc. I am starting a LR-308 build, but was thinking of making it in .243. But there seems to be more 6.5 creedmoor barrels available. And I haven't seen you talk much about 6.5 creedmoor.
Country View Acres i built an AR10 too and went with .308 due to being able to find ammo if shtf. The 6.5cm is sweet though. I wouldnt mind having one of those haha
The nice thing about the 300blk. Is you can swap the upper in a few seconds and change the characteristics of the rifle. I have an 8.5" 300blk barrel and 16" 5.56 upper. Maneuverable car gun and combat rifle.
Modern 5.56mm is not good enough for human beings? There is none that is better given the size. If you are hit by the Black Hills 77gr TMK (tipped Match King) even out of a 16inch barrel, you ARE down.
@Phillip Cameron 556 primary wounding mechanism is explosive cavitation and fragmentation. FMJ are optimal. The military doesnt use FMJ because it has to, it uses it, because its the most versatile, most reliable, most predictable bullet.
On the topic of the 5.56 ammo 55 vs 62 grain I have to disagree. I've seen many comparisons showing the XM193(55 grain) to out perform the M855(62 grain) in virtually every aspect. Only thing that the m855 seems to perform better is against medium to soft barrier penetration like dense foliage, walls, vehicles where the XM193 would tumble and fragment. Besides that the XM193 can actually penetrate body armor and the terminal ballistics are superior to the M855. Feel free to look up the vids and articles.
The problem is barrel length. 5.56mm was designed for 20 inch barrels. And 62 grain is optimised at the 20 inches. Anything less than this and travelling slower than 850m/s (950m/s is recommended) will not show the benefits of the enhanced performance of a 62 grain 5.56mm Nato. You also need to look at the barrel twist when comparing variants with 55gr to 62gr. It must match.
I have to say my top three are 6.5 Grendel because you can still hit a 1000 yard target with a 12 inch barrel. It's on TH-cam as well. 2 the 5.56 it is actually a great little round soft recoil and for new shooters it's the perfect training cartridge. Number 3 the 7.62x39 now in an AR-15 it's kinda hard to get them to feed correctly unless you have a KS-47 or mutant or have found the D&H mags or unimags like I did. it's cheap and extremely effective the 7.62x39 has been around for years but if you're going to build one remember to get the enhanced firing pin if you do this no more ftf or light primer strikes
I went with Logistical Compatibility for two builds. One girl is .556, and the other is 7.62x39. The later of which, allows me to take advantage of an enemy's ammo; of which I would happily say, thank you comrade.
@2:24 the video is over, the proof is there to conclusively prove that drop and wind drift favor the 6.5 Grendel sure the 204 Ruger shoots flatter but it's too small to buck the wind. I think it has always been obvious that the 300 black out isn't up too 7.62x39mm performance but it was designed to be a quiet and up close thumper
@23:32 you're absolutely correct you've explained why I reload with so many different weights and shapes of 223 projectiles I have thoroughly enjoyed the video and the information presented in a smart way
My primary weapon system is a 16" 5.56 with a 1-8 LPVO and a flashlight. That's it. I have a secondary pistol built in 7.62x39 with night vision compatability, and a can. If I had to grab one and go, though, I'd gladly pick up the 16" 5.56 and roll out.
Why not 6.5 Ceedmoor? It's ballistically superior with the only two compromises. 1. More weight though still less than 7.62x51 (better balistically than 7.62x51 aswell) 2. Longer case length, though I think lenght is the best compromise you can make dimentionally given it doesn't compromise the handling or feeding properties of the round. All this may be moot in another 10 years if the military really does do away with brass adopts the caseless telescoping ammo which provides greater energy per volume and weight.
Barrel length really affects velocity, and that translates to more hydrostatic damage a longer ranges... Keep that in mind. I have two AR-15s: one 16" M-4 AR-15 in 5.56/.223 for home defense, and one 20" free floated AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel for hunting medium game past 200 yards.
I will stay with the 5.56 just for the reasons of ammo and parts availability. I would prefer a 6.5 Grendel, but with a SHTF situation, If it is bad, don't plan on staying in one place, you will get overrun eventually unless you have an army, you will have to stay evasive and have enough gear to sustain you, but be able to move. Don't engage unless you have no other options.
My choice for pure sniper applications would not be the AR-15, but rather an AR-10 chambered in 308. That will even offer greater terminal ballistics and ammo is far more readily available with probably an overall greater logistical compatibility. Furthermore, I wouldn't be at all surprised that cost of ammo might also be another consideration for choosing 308 over 6.5 Grendel. Just my opinion.
Two uppers, one lower. First upper is in 5.56 with a LPVO. Second upper is in 6.5 Grendel, also with a LPVO. The LPVO is on a Bobro QD mount with dope for both loads memorized. 120 rounds for the 6.5, and 500 rounds for the 5.56. With food, water, and essentials, the complete load out is 57 pounds. Both uppers have backup irons.
300 BLK is also a good choice for home defence. Even unsuppressed subsonic loads will be the quietest option (important in a home defense situation where you're likely not using hearing protection) and they were designed largely with cqb in mind.
6.5 Grendel, PROS- 1. Better BC than all others, with the flattest trajectory. ( 200 yard zero, I aim 1 in high at 300 and 1 in low at 100yards.) 2. Uses 7.62x39 brass and many 6.5 pills 3. Wolf makes .25 cent steel case ammo 4. Beats all others in energy, when comparing barrel length inch to inch from 10in-24in (There are certain times when 6.8 can be 5-10% or so higher energy say at the muzzle-100yds, but if you were to compare which has the most energy every 100 yards for 1200-1500 yards grendel wins, and remember that's comparing same barrel length to barrel length ). 5. Russian AK-12 is offering a chambering in 6.5 grendel. (Probably why wolf makes it, but we cant own one because we live in one of those "free" countries) CONS- No Pmags PS- I own 5.56, 6.8, 6.5 and 300 Blackout ARs. So I'm not someone who is defending a purchase I made. Ive made dozens of them ;).
This was discussed in another forum talking about which would be better in a 10.5 in barrel, and the gentleman used JBMs ballistic calculator Similar results can be seen comparing all barrel lengths. -- As mentioned above, I ran the ballistics: A 10.5" 6.5 Grendel SBR launches a 123 Sierra MatchKing (BC.510) at 2175 fps using Black Hills ammunition. A 10" 6.8 SPC SBR launches a 115 Sierra MatchKing (BC.324) at 2265 fps using Silver State ammunition. As far as velocity at 300 yards, 65G has 1726 and the 68SPC has 1515, a difference of 211 fps. Which is better, to have more velocity at impact or to have less velocity? As far as energy at 300 yards, the 65G has 813 and the 68SPC has 586, a difference of 227 ft/lbs. Which is better, to have more energy at impact or to have less energy? Did I mention the 6.5 Grendel SBR also shoots flatter and drifts less in wind (13.5" vs. 14.8" for drop and 9" vs. 15.1" for drift)? I really don't think instantly declaring the 6.8 SPC a "better choice for a 10.5" barrel" is as cut-and-dried as you make it seem.
Thanks for the helpful review. Constructive criticism: the word criterion is singular. The word criteria is plural and used when you compare more than one variable. Along with 5.56, the 6.5 Grendel is looking pretty legit for the AR15 platform.
5.56 is the way to go in the Ar-15 platform. If you are shot in the chest within 600m, you're gonna have a bad day. Especially with the 69-77 gr stuff. Undeniably m855 is shit if you are dealing with an unarmored target that is not behind a light barrier, it is good at poking holes, not making lethal wounds. m193 is still incredibly devastating at 500m despite its lower weight and BC.
The best may be debated. The best for me at the time is my Bear Creek Arsenal twins in 7.62x39 16" side charge and 6.5 Grendel 20" slick side rear charge. One is a cheap plinker and shorter range deer buster and the other is a precision target tamer and all range deer buster(all range for my ability that is which likely won't exceed 350 yards if that far even).
I not even gonna read the comments but the 5.56 is the best I'd rather be able to carry 800 rounds of 5.56 than 200 rounds of 308 or these other dollar a piece bullets I've drop a deer at around 500 yards with it so that's good enough for me
6.5 grendel has the best ballistics performance at longer range among all of these rounds. the 6.8spc is close behind but has the advantage to have a specific rifle designed for it : the LWRC SIX-8. The six-8 should ideally be the new standard assault rifle and the 6.8spc the new standard caliber.
Only had to watch until 5:45 to know the answer for me, already shooting it, already reloading it, I will be good to go. didn't even finish the video, don't know much about any of the other mentioned calibers except 300 blackout. Love the vids Rex, keep up the good work.
While the 5.56mm is great in this platform I really love the 300 Blackout because of it's versatility. Super sonic to sub sonic, 110gr bullets up to 240gr bullets, what more could you ask for.
It didn't, you are correct. Esp. the 6.8 SPC II. It cycles better, has better velocities and energy out to 200 yards and in an SBR build SPC II is KING in Ar 15 platform.
It looks like he just used box data for this comparison, which is wildly inaccurate/unfair in the comparison given 6.8 uses a 16” barrel and Grendel uses a 24” barrel for box data. Especially important if you you hand load, the 6.8 case/bolt can take higher chamber pressure and has greater area on the base of the bullet, it will have faster muzzle velocities for the same weight bullet and barrel length.
My favorite........270 Winchester. I have used it to take all of the North American game on the Continent and it works as stated. Been around for years and has a large following for reloading. Can load it to ungodly levels, if you have a Weatherby action, and will hit out to ranges that you cannot see. Mild recoil from all the rest and flat shooting. Quibbling argument between the 6mm to .27 class of bullets. The main thing.......do I want my pet caliber to be chambered in a semi-auto? NO. Give the gun grabbers another cartridge to go play with.
I have to say! The best cartridge to shoot in your ar15, is the one the book that came with your gun says? or what's printed on the side of the receiver of coarse? I had a bud splitting casings in his .40? turns out ,it's not a 9? lol
for home defence , the best thing to learn, is take a knee while placing the shot! no matter what gun you use, you have a better idea of where your shot will track? not so good for the guy two miles down the road, but didn't shoot your daughters boy friend on accident! The whole thing is messed up anyway! at least you could have a didn't think it would come back down defence!
Fellas , something should be definitely discussed. He touched on it. But the Mag. Some nice,some not so nice. Ammo is nice and works on your new build but. What happens when that ammo does not cycle? Mags are your life line. Stove pipe. You are screwed. Magpul mags work really good on mine. Share your thoughts on your mags.
USMC just released a Purchase Order for 6,500 H&K M27 Infantry Assault Rifles (which is a souped up HK 416 with a heavy 16.5" barrel meant for sustained fire). The USMC also has standing procedure to issue 62gr SOST Mk318 ammunition in any combat zone. The terminal performance for the SOST round is highly regarded.
I like the M855A1. It runs great out of the M4. What I've noticed is they tend to be hard on the feedramps because you have that exposed hard penetrator beating it up. I have a vid on my channel of me doing some burst mag dumps with the stuff.
I think that the best cartridge for the AR15 is a 77 grain sierra match king loaded over 25.2 grains of AA2520 in a lake city case with a CCI milspec primer. its good for 2750 FPS out of my 20 inch Criterion match barrel with 3/4 MOA precision. Out of my 20 inch BCM .gov profile barrel its won't shoot that tight but its still good for 1.5 MOA. At any distance a 5.56MM cartridge is appropriate, this is a LETHAL COMBO. If this wont get it done, you need to reach for a bigger gun.
Well, I consider it the replacement for the 5.56 because the US military knows the Black Hills 77 grain 5.56 round still doesn't knock down bad guys at long distances. So, I can go to 75% of sporting goods stores and find 6.8 SPC II Horandy 110 and 120 grain SXTs. My rifle shoots 1/4" groups at 100 yards. It is highly efficient.
I have had a 5.56 AR for years and wanted to get another AR. I was thinking of going with a larger caliber. I ended up getting another 5.56 since it was so much cheaper for me. I already had around ten 5.56 mags, and a lot of ammo.
I have to hand it to you Rex. I have build a multi caliber AR using the frontier tactical warlock. Right now I have the 5.56 barrel, the 7.62x39 barrel. I have one more barrel receiver, which with your information to change my AR into a sniper I'll be going with the 6.5 Grendel. By doing this I already have two 5.56 bolts and one 7.62 bolt which I plan to get another 7.62 bolt for back up. I know that the 6.5 works with the 5.56 bolt. The next thing after the 6.5 barrel would be getting an upper that can spit out the larger casings like the 458 socom or 50 Beowolf. Your right on that there is almost 100 different calibers, right now we are at 90 different calibers.
mike smidee 6.5 uses a standard upper, but requires a 7.62 based bolt. Grendel I Chambers use the same 7.62x39 AR bolt, Grendel II chambers require a dedicated grendel bolt to headspace properly.
Grendel uses it's own bolt. Go with the Grendel II chamber though, while the Grendel I chamber can share the X39 bolt, the bolt's not as strong as the II bolt, because it has a shallower bolt face .125 vs .136. The deeper face on the II bolt leaves more beef around the lugs.
And if you already have a 5.56 AR, you can work on buying and building more upper halves chambered for the other popular cartridge offerings and cover all your bases, provided you have a few seconds to pull your takedown pins and swap uppers when you need to make a switch.
This video has convinced me that the overall preferred cartridge for the AR 15 was the one for which Eugene Stoner had been used to come up with in the 1950s. Namely, the .308 Winchester or 7.62 x 51 mm. The 5.56 NATO is a weakened high velocity, smaller cartridge designed for soldiers to carry more ammo that could be used in full auto rifles, namely the M-16. While the 5.56 NATO round is effective at distances under 400 yards, the velocity drops off at longer distances past 600 yards. All of the other calibers mentioned are somewhat of an apology why the 5.56 NATO round is a closer range cartridge, useful for hunting smaller sized game. In many states the 5.56 NATO round is not a legitimate hunting round for mid-sized game or larger. All of the other calibers named fall short of the 7.62 NATO round and you certainly are not going to see these on the shelf at Wal Mart.
3DHUSKER I like the 6.5 Grendal. Or would love to get some m855a1 for 556. What part of the Husker Nation you from? Think we can go undefeated this year. I do if we get Westercamp back this week.
I have 2 AR15 grendels. one is a heavy barrel 20 in, the other a light barrel 16 in. Also a Howa bolt action with a 20 in heavy barrel. Grendel is a great round. Ammo is in a lot of stores now from hornady, PPU, and wolf. The wolf is about $10 a box.
For me the 277 Wolverine won my vote for a general purpose and fun shooting rifle - I love both the 12" and 20" for different reasons - the 300 blk never got the results I wanted in my 10.5" barrel. yes having 223/556 as backup is always good for availability of ammo. But reloading once fired LC Brass with 277 Wolverine is a real treat and easy on the pocket as well. Hope to see a few optimized bullets for it in the future though it keeps up with the 6.8 spc factory loads pretty well so the same weight bullets perform well in both until you get past the 130gr - would just like to see a little longer bullet since the wolverine has a shorter case - loading at full mag length with lighter bullets would be very cool indeed - a smaller version of those used in 6.5 LBC and such
Where the heck can i get 6.5 Grendel ammo that is still pumping out 1,400 lbs of energy at 250 yards?!?! That's gotta be some kind of mistake, the hottest grendel loads have trouble staying above 1,000 at 300 yards.
Boy agreed. The wind is a Beach. I can get my holds out to 650-800yards but that last bit to 1000 especially when it’s gusting a little bit and then my target has to jump in front of the bullet to catch it. Bullet drop is easy, gravity is gravity. It’s an easy calculation, but wind is a beast at times.
The problem with 6.5 Grendel, etc. is bolt strength for the Stoner design mil-spec dimensions. (.300 AAC gets around this by using 556 brass). Point being, the bolt face is machined larger to accommodate the larger diameter cartridge base thereby significantly weakening the bolt locking lug integrity. This is why Sharps came out with its tool steel relia-bolt - which has had a very mixed reliability history.
Great discussion. I appreciate you starting from a position of PURPOSE. This just doesn't get discussed enough. Many of us are out there looking for "perfect" gear without taking thought for what the gear will actually be asked to do.
"5.56 is going to be laying all over the face of the earth." Can you find me some now?
Exactly. I've been able to find less popular stuff lately, but 9x19, 5.56, .223, .40...that stuff is all hard to get. If everyone has the same chambering, it's actually harder to get ammo, not easier.
P S I thought there would be pallets laying in the streets
tsuobachi I’m buying 7.62x39 like nobody’s business
@@ryandavis9794 Good, I don't have anything chambered in 7.62x39 but I've stocked up on a few odd cartridges as well. Sadly my 9mm is sitting on a very small supply atm.
tsuobachi Overheard associates at Academy telling a customer this morning that a shipment of 9mm came in this morning and was gone in a half hour
wow I never knew the grendel was such a performer... now i need to build another upper.
Rusty Shackelford yup I just made one
I know right.
Also i'm gonna start looking at all the different 5.56 loads. I normally just grab what ever is cheep. I'm gonna start looking at some of the hunting/Match loads.
Just zeroed my Grendel yesterday, the recoil is very tame. So far I don’t have anything bad to say about it except not a lot of places carry that round. But hey the more people that want it makes more places start carrying it. It’s almost moving out of wildcat cartridge status.
I have built 3 of the 6.5 Grendel uppers now. 12.5, 16. and 24. the 12.5 does everything a 16 inch 5.56 does. You will really love the 12.5 and it will take white tails out to 300-350 yards.
Love a 6.5
I bought my first AR in 5.56 several years ago & just finished building my first AR. After researching for WEEKS, I chose to build the 6.5 Grendel because of all the advantages you listed...& because i already own the creedmore in a bolt action. I absolutely love them both. Now if I could just find ammo for the Grendel. Lol
It is very important to note that all the ballistics being presented for the 6.5 Grendel are from a 24 inch barrel. When you plug in the statistics from a 16 inch barrel you get much much different results. My 6.8 115 gr out of 16 inch barrel gets 2550 FPS while the 6.5 Grendel 123gr only gets 2350 FPS out of the 16 inch barrel.
People don't realize this very important point. I use an 18 inch barrel for my 6.8 and I find it works wonderfully. I simply didn't want to deal with a 24" barrel and don't intend to shoot over 300 yards in the first place.
But then the bc and sd of of the grendel is going to be greater ...a statistical tie .
i like the 6.5Grendel
Way to expensive and unneccessary for most engagements.
M C 👍 best multi-purpose for AR-15. Battle, CQC, longrange,, precision, competition, hunting...
Bobby Johnson quit being poor!
@@bobbyraejohnson 30c a round bro
@@SSPENGUIN1 Compared to what?
I'd like to take a moment to posthumously thank Eugene Stoner.
Yeah 22 years later
@@niceone4370 the AR-15 was invented in the early 1960's, that makes it a bit more than 20 years later.
@@vikingoperator9873 do you know what the word 'posthumously' means?
@@vikingoperator9873 stoner died 22 years ago dip
@@newerest1@Big Krumpus welp, I'm dumb.
I strongly recommend the 6.8 SPC. I did some through fact finding prior to doing a build that strayed away from the NATO round. The 6.8 SPC has the strongest potential for finding its way into military adoption, having already been adopted by some foreign forces already. This year alone, 6.8 builds we have built successfully harvested 2 Antelope, 2 Deer, and a cow elk. Believe it or not the cow elk was at 422 yards. I shot my Muley buck at 355 yards. My problems with the 6.5 Grendel are the two differing bolt faces, bolts being damaged under the high pressure load, longer barrel requirement for performance, case shape and feeding issues in the platform. 6.8 SPC is at this point the only round I would invest into the platform while straying from the 5.56. Awesome video rex! I recommend you to everyone. Literally the best content.
I agree 6.8 spec all the way these guys have no clue. Men that know machineing and how gun work would take 6.8 hits hard too
Denny Ducet actually 6.8 has worse ballistics compared to 6.5 and even 5.56. 5.56 is flatter shooting will eventually surpass it in energy after 300 yards 6.8 projectiles have shitty ballistic coefficients
Will Terry , curiously enough, that's pretty much the case. Reckon I do find it odd that 6.5mm and 7mm have high to extremely high bc projectile available while 6.8 .277 cal are so lacking.
Lol must be a nasty communist plot against the. 277 6.8mm shooters. Lmbo 🤣
Grendel stomped a mundhole in the ass of the 6.8! Grendel is the one being adopted by specialized military units.
.224 Valkyrie
For ME, 300blk is my go to self defense cartridge. For so many reasons. Firstly, the compact platform (9inch barrel). Fully compatible with standard mags (running full 30 capacity). Versatility is off the charts. Starting with 110gr supers that are excellent out to 300 yards. As a self defense tool, I don't ever expect shooting that far anyway. Would it even be justified? Variable supers all the way up to 155gr. Same firearm with a can running 220gr subs out to 200 yards and it's Hollywood quiet. And yes, I know guys extend the ranges I've listed. Just being conservative.
a 220 subsonic is moving really slow, so distance will be a killer. 200 yards would be pushing it. You don't shoot a 44 mag at 200 yards when it's supersonic. How do you get one to be accurate at 200 yards when it's subsonic. Probably outstanding for close ranges though. You can't beat size and weight. That's why I carry a 1911 45 instead of a 9mm. If I'm shooting out past 100, I probably won't be shooting subsonic.
TexanUSMC8089 that's a bad comparison due to BC differences. .308 225gr can have a bc of .640 where as the 44 mags 240 grain is a round .200. What does that mean? it means that while the 44 mag will lose over 400fps by 200yrds the 300blk only lost 70fps. I'm not saying the 300blk is a great long range hunting round, I'm saying that they hold their energy incredibly well and bullet drop is consistent and predictable. i don't think the 480fpe it would be carrying at 200 yards is that much different the 550fpe it's carrying at the muzzle
I've got a 16 in barrel for a 300, but just have never put it on a receiver. One of these days I'll go try it out.
Yeah, the 300 AAC got the short end of the stick on the charts in this video. I am betting that he used a short barrel and 125gr cartridges for making the chart, even though 10.5"-16" barrel 1:8 twist and 110-115gr is the sweet spot for 300 AAC.
Love how deep Rex gets into the details. Very specific and accurate. Thanks again Rex.
6.5 Grendel overall. The 5.56×45 is very common, so in a SHTF scenario it would be the best, as you mentioned is true.
So, how about 1 nice lower matched to 3 Uppers:
.223 Wylde Chamber 16in barrel with a 1:8 twist for SHTF
6.5 Grendel with a Scoped, Rifle Length Barrel for Sniping and Hunting
300 Blackout SBR Suppressed for Covert, Indoors, and Patrol
Sounds like a good setup, or am I off base here?
I'd probably just go with a .223 wylde 18" and a SBR 300 blackout. with the Grendel you'll need different parts and different mags. if you really want to reach out to 1,000K, I'd just opt for a compact bolt gun and a 300 blk.
Youll never take a 1k shot anyways in SHTF. Engagements will be 500 yards and in. You wouldnt be able to ID positively well enough at 1k yards. Also are you just going to shoot anyone you see at range that isnt threatening you..? Its unrealistic. Stick to the 556 which is massively prevalant, parts are massively prevalent etc. Basically everyone and their mother in SHTF is going to have an AR platform so scavenging is going to be a non issue.
Unless you have a crystal ball you don't know what range a person might shoot at. Might be shooting at blue helmets. I say, buy every gun you can afford. If you have to bug out, you'll probably have to leave a bunch behind, but until then? There's no way to know what might come in handy.
Replace 300BLK w/454 SOCOM or Beowulf, and I think you have it. (or even pump shotgun w/subsonic slugs, or 7.62x39 w/154gr subsonic or 45ACP are MORE versatile & commonly-found in times of scarcity -- the shotty can also breach doors/send flash-bangs/CS/incendiary rounds/scatter...etc and is WAY cheap -- and all these except 7.62x39 are more powerful subsonic than 300BLK).
I also might just go for a 10.5" Grendel so it matches magazines of the 16" -- *10.5" Grendel has as much muzzle-energy as 16" 5.56, so he "stays in the fight" slightly BETTER at medium ranges as a 16" 5.56 (due to Grendel's 123gr higher BC than 77gr 5.56's BC: they START with same muzzle-energy; Grendel RETAINS that energy further out).* But your 10.5" Grendel guy will be WAY advantaged to the 16" 5.56 in cars/CQB/tunnels/other small spaces or easier on knees/ankles as a patrol rifle. He'll have MORE compatibility w/your 16" Grendel guy(s). But if you happen upon unguarded 5.56 rounds and can't ALSO confiscate or ally w/some neighbors who have a RIFLE that's 5.56, woe unto you insofar as "compatibility".
If your subsonic is the 155gr 7.62, at least you also can re-form the brass to 6.5G. And if you confiscate some 7.62 ammo and 300BLK ammo (approx equal odds; they're both ~3.5% of usa's ammo sales), the 7.62x39 is way stronger in the supersonic realm, only slightly weaker subsonic.
...or you can just put a "broomhandle" buttstock on 10mm/45ACP pistol, if there's no more laws, use that for your subsonic at WAY less weight & cost.
kirin347 I was thinking the exact same thing
I hunt with a 6.5 Grendel.
I've always thought .243/6mm would be about perfect. However, all my "battle weapons" are chambered in current NATO calibers specifically for the ammo resupply reason. AND, I resent being called an "old timer", lol.
Consider the 25-45 Sharps and also the 277 Wolverine. None of them are perfect for everything, but each has it's strengths and weaknesses.
6.5 Grendel, hands-down.
I went with 5.56x45mm NATO for a few reasons. It can take both 5.56 and .223, as well as .22LR (with conversion kit that's a simple BCG and mag swap). Right away, this gives my rifle superb flexibility in a SHTF scenario, as well as just a general purpose rifle. Due to the light weight of 5.56/.223 and especially .22LR, I can carry a lot of ammo in the same space and weight of less ammo of another type. All 3 calibers are also super common, and very cheap, giving me lots of training. As it stands now, I can frequently ping 8" steel "head shot" gongs even at 450 yards with irons, and within 200 yards, I can nail the 8" gongs every time, save for the occasional flyer (I use Magtech ball ammo, so nothing fancy).
While the .22LR conversion kit is about as quiet as if I were running a suppressor, I'd still limit the use of my rifle for hunting in favor of trapping, which is a far more effective means to hunt in a SHTF scenario.
I would also not be concerned about my rifle ever being a security/defensive weapon, nor for taking deer, as that's the role my 12ga Mossberg 500 is for. I think a 5.56 AR-15 paired with a 12ga pump shotgun, and whatever sidearm you prefer is probably the best survivalist combo you can have. Heck, with the 28" barrel and improved cylinder choke on my Mossberg 500, deer slugs are plenty accurate and powerful even at 150 yards, the furthest I've tested being 200 yards, which is WAY more than you need to hunt deer or run security. And again, if I need quiet shots for hunting, I'm pretty good with a 55-60# recurve bow out to 75 yards. Archery is probably king in CoWC, as you can make your own weapons and ammo, assuming you've studied how, and it'll really help with firearm ammo conservation.
Ultimately, the less you have to rely on firearms, the better you'll be in such a scenario.
As for long range shooting, I'm on the fence about buying a 6.5 Grendel upper, or instead buying an used or mil surp .30-06 or .308 for the same price. As much as I'd love to get a Grendel upper, it seems more practical to get a full size rifle running the bigger ammo. My use for such a weapon would be for recreational 1,000 yard shooting, and maybe recreational hunting, not SHTF or CoWC scenarios. I do like my brother's Winchester XPR in .30-06, though I may go with Savage or something else. Still researching. Don't want to spend more than $500, 'cause I still need money to buy an optic and of course ammo.
They need to make the 6.5 Grendel a nato round!
Je P it costs too much for the military
Um... no.
I prefer the idea of having an advantage. Let them use undersized ammo.
The 6.5 Grendel bolt is too weak for heavy duty applications, it has nothing to do with cost(was that supposed to a joke, Brendan? nothing costs too much for the military)
Military trials roundly rejected it.
Great video, the Grendel also has a Advantage of inexpensive steel cased ammo. Although you do specify a AR15, in my opinion 7.62 Nato would be preferred as a SHTF rifle since it so much more versatile. In regards to Penetration, effectiveness in Hunting/Survival situations and widespread in civilian and military uses. As for weapons I would probably consider FAL because of it’s use more than any other throughput the world especially South America. The AR10 because of it’s similarities to AR15. And M14 because of it’s continued but limited use in the US military.
Yea, 5.56 is gonna be the best for worst case scenarios. Thats why you can have different uppers and different rifles all together for the fancy stuff.
6.5 Grendel. Nuff said.
I think the shtf cartridge would really be a toss-up between 556 and 762x39 the sheer amount of both would make either one viable I chose 7.62x39 myself and a 6.5 Grendel for a long range config
100% agree!!!
I use the same cartridges in the same roles.
Try shooting the 224 Valkyrie!! It does not go sub sonic until 1200 meters..it just about has the same ballistics as my 6.5 Creedmoor!
6.5 Grendel ammo is around 35 cents per round. It has a lot of energy out in the 500-750 range. 120-123 gr bullet.
Outperforms 6.8 in every respect. Downsides over 5.56? Need a longer barrel for best efficiency. Standard mags hold 25 instead of 30 rounds.
Steel case ammo can be got for as little as $0.28 per round.
Barrels and rifles are readily available for not a whole lot more than 5.56, although, like any other precision rifle, you've got to go up in price for the really good ones. (of course, the same is true for 5.56 barrels)
$4.99 for wolf steel ammo. $13 for PPU. 120 gr. Grendel
You don't need a longer barrel for 6.5 Grendel. 16" is plenty. Twist rate and BC matter more than barrel length.
Alexander Arms makes a Grendel with a 14.5 inch barrel. With a 123 AMAX in a Grendel the fps drops about 100 fps from a 20 in to a 16 in. Not bad.
Wolf Military Classic steel case plinking ammo as low as $136 per 500 plus shipping. Berdan primed, of course. I haven't got to play with it yet, but it promises to be decent plinking stuff, and I wouldn't have issues out to 300 yards or so.
I know this video is dealing with the AR-15 but I’ve often wondered why more companies are not offering AR-10s chambered in 7mm-08.
Because nobody would buy that.
Trevor Meredith wrong!
I would buy it
good idea
Because of the 6.5 CM
Our Training Schedule: www.rexdefense.com
Please do another video on just the cartridge options for the 556. I, like many others, would be very interested in seeing that. Thank you
SHTF 5.56 or 223 Wylde because it can shoot the variants and 7.62x39 because they would probably be the most common rounds.
I love these videos, but not for the reasons one may expect. It makes my day knowing there are people out there who would literally shit their pants and phone their governor if they were to see subjects like this being talked about and information like this being spread. :)
Highjak86 they should crap in their pants. They should be terrified.
William, if you are referring to Ahmad, you should read his entire post. It's easy to misconstrue his points from just the first paragraph.
Such people would shit themselves and be totally blind-sided when their precious government turns on them. Much like the millions of communist party supporters who weren't "communist enough" during the Soviet Union, and were sent to the gulags to die alongside the tens of millions of others who would be worked to death all in the name of "fairness" and "compassion."
It amuses me that people who support commies like Bernie will actually say I'm ignorant for thinking Bernie is a communist (despite overwhelming evidence that he is), and they act like having tyrants in power could never go wrong. These are the same people who tell me I don't need a gun because we have cops, then turn around and say cops are untrustworthy racist murderers. I'm just like, "Yo, are you suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance, or are you seriously that mentally retarded?" I suppose that's why they call marijuana "dope," after all. Bunch of brain-dead dopes.
Those scum hate guns because slaves don't have guns. As long as we are armed we will be free.
I'm just glad they don't realize it's the legislature they should be calling
For the AR15: I built a “red dawn” AR in 7.62x39 with the thought process of most enemies will be bringing plenty of that ammunition with them. When it comes to standing without support I am a 100 yard shooter so I decided to take the extra energy near vs better b.c.
Very well thought out. I think the best part of this video is the question, "what are you going to use it for?"
I'm surprised you didn't come up with use cases for the 7.62x39 (or even 5.45x39). I know those are AK traditional. However, they satisfy cost and availability requirements also. I'm not sure about magazine compatibility however. That is a question I would love an answer for. Also, the 7.62x39 can do the same thing as the .300 AAC Blackout which is derived from the .300-221 Fireball which is derived from the .300 Whisper. The one limitation I see is good bullets in .311 diameter for hand loaders.
For a SHTF rifle, I think a solid case can be made for the XM193 and M855 cartridges. POI is a bit different though, even from a 16" barrel at only 100 meters. The 77gr loads need a 1:8 or 1:7 twist and should be launched from a 20" barrel, IMO. You can probably get away with 18" at shorter distances. I'm currently getting acquainted with a 16" 1:9 barrel which probably won't handle the 77s but may work with 69s.
I'm still playing with this stuff. I learned on an M16-A1 and then had a rather long hiatus. The possibilities now are amazing. Logistically I would favor the 5.56x45 chambering. Just choose the right bullet for the job and barrel length & twist.
Thumbs up and subscribed.
Owned a 7.62 upper for a while, mags sucked, not all that accurate, sorta useless all around. Sold it and bought an AK for the same price.
I was looking at picking a few 77gr rounds but you think a 20" is needed? I have a 16 and don't want to give up the length for something longer though it would compliment the M193 I like to use.
I think if you have a 1:8 or faster twist, 77s should shoot fine. One way to find out. There is also 69gr ammunition.
I’ve got 5.56 16” / 6.5 20”/ .458socom 8”. They all have their own jobs and work great.
In a shtf/mad max senario it won't matter to me. If you shot that much ammo and are still alive chances are there will be a 556 rifle laying on the ground you could pick up along with ammo.
Jeremy Weber and there will also be other cartridges around also due to people not needing it. Imagine raiding a building looking for 5.56 and all you find is 6.8 or 6.5 due it people that came before you couldn’t use it, but now you can, so stock what you can.
Agreed you're going to supply everything we need the deposit on them will be one bullet
If I roll through a spot looking for ammo and it's a ton of stuff I can't use, imma grab their rifle AND their ammo, and make good use of both.
Thanks for the great videos. 300 blk and 7.62x39 should also have an advantage for shorter barreled rifles, which could be used for applications like home defense, close quarters combat, pdw or covert use requiring a sbr. These calibers burn out their powder more quickly and don't lose as much power in shorter barrels.
Thank you so much for this. I'm looking to build my first AR now in...6.5grendel!
Me too.
For me, it's 6.5 Grendel.
This cartridge gives the AR platform real teeth! No longer a 300M range carbine, but a 1,000M RIFLE, with terminal velocity passed 1200M. (This using the 123 grain bullet.) It's 308 (better than M80!!!) performance with _half the recoil!!!_ How can you not love that?
For under 400M, my choice is 7.62X39. It's very common in the USA too! Lots of people want more punch than the 5.56N.
As for Home Defense, an M-1 Carbine with soft point bullets is plenty. No recoil! I've shot them since I was 8 years old!!! _Anyone_ can use the "warbaby".
You the man rex, i love your practical views and discussions
5.56 for all practical reasons.
other than suppression, 300 has both micro and macro logistical advantages because it only requires a different barrel.
I believe this is the best explanation of the AR 15 platform I've ever heard. Great work. Thank You for posting this video.
50 Beowulf is always the best answer. it makes the biggest hole. if your target is far away, just get closer.
LOL Who doesn't like making bigger holes. I want one.
It's a mortar round too. lol
lmao i guess that'll work 😂
Or 458 socom
Ever priced that ammo?
One underlying message, and I suppose I arrived at that through winnowing is that the AR-platform allows one to reduce the armory to perhaps a 1-2(as backup) fully built lowers, with assorted uppers for specific uses. For AR-15, .223 Wylde and 6.5 Grendel certainly seem to cover the most ground, with 300BLK subsonic for indoor applications. The former covers closer range with slightly improved precision with .223 and mass availability of 5.56 NATO [and convertibly to 22 LR for certain low cost training application], and 6.5 Grendel dedicated to longer reach applications where precision and terminal energy stand out.
great video. Can you make another video along the same lines for the AR-10 variants. .243, .6.5 creedmoor, 260 rem, 7mm08, etc. I am starting a LR-308 build, but was thinking of making it in .243. But there seems to be more 6.5 creedmoor barrels available. And I haven't seen you talk much about 6.5 creedmoor.
smalltown442, make mine a 358 Win. 👍😆
That's easy 6.5 Creed.
Country View Acres i built an AR10 too and went with .308 due to being able to find ammo if shtf. The 6.5cm is sweet though. I wouldnt mind having one of those haha
The nice thing about the 300blk. Is you can swap the upper in a few seconds and change the characteristics of the rifle. I have an 8.5" 300blk barrel and 16" 5.56 upper. Maneuverable car gun and combat rifle.
Modern 5.56mm is not good enough for human beings? There is none that is better given the size. If you are hit by the Black Hills 77gr TMK (tipped Match King) even out of a 16inch barrel, you ARE down.
TMK aren't used by the military. They're only allowed to use full metal jacket bullets.
Down=/=out
Yeah, *never* saw anyone walk off a 556 hit. On the other hand, I have seen lots of 762R failures.
@@TexanUSMC8089
You could not be more wrong
@Phillip Cameron
556 primary wounding mechanism is explosive cavitation and fragmentation. FMJ are optimal. The military doesnt use FMJ because it has to, it uses it, because its the most versatile, most reliable, most predictable bullet.
On the topic of the 5.56 ammo 55 vs 62 grain I have to disagree. I've seen many comparisons showing the XM193(55 grain) to out perform the M855(62 grain) in virtually every aspect. Only thing that the m855 seems to perform better is against medium to soft barrier penetration like dense foliage, walls, vehicles where the XM193 would tumble and fragment. Besides that the XM193 can actually penetrate body armor and the terminal ballistics are superior to the M855. Feel free to look up the vids and articles.
biggboysouth Agreed. I've compared both, I'll go with the 193
biggboysouth m855 will shoot father though it has a better bc
The problem is barrel length. 5.56mm was designed for 20 inch barrels. And 62 grain is optimised at the 20 inches. Anything less than this and travelling slower than 850m/s (950m/s is recommended) will not show the benefits of the enhanced performance of a 62 grain 5.56mm Nato.
You also need to look at the barrel twist when comparing variants with 55gr to 62gr. It must match.
Very timely video. Thanks Rex!
I have to say my top three are 6.5 Grendel because you can still hit a 1000 yard target with a 12 inch barrel. It's on TH-cam as well. 2 the 5.56 it is actually a great little round soft recoil and for new shooters it's the perfect training cartridge. Number 3 the 7.62x39 now in an AR-15 it's kinda hard to get them to feed correctly unless you have a KS-47 or mutant or have found the D&H mags or unimags like I did. it's cheap and extremely effective the 7.62x39 has been around for years but if you're going to build one remember to get the enhanced firing pin if you do this no more ftf or light primer strikes
I went with Logistical Compatibility for two builds. One girl is .556, and the other is 7.62x39. The later of which, allows me to take advantage of an enemy's ammo; of which I would happily say, thank you comrade.
Big Gee what?
spasibo, Toverich
Best thing anyone has ever put on the internet.
@2:24
the video is over, the proof is there to conclusively prove that drop and wind drift favor the 6.5 Grendel
sure the 204 Ruger shoots flatter but it's too small to buck the wind.
I think it has always been obvious that the 300 black out isn't up too 7.62x39mm performance but it was designed to be a quiet and up close thumper
@23:32
you're absolutely correct
you've explained why I reload with so many different weights and shapes of 223 projectiles
I have thoroughly enjoyed the video and the information presented in a smart way
My primary weapon system is a 16" 5.56 with a 1-8 LPVO and a flashlight. That's it.
I have a secondary pistol built in 7.62x39 with night vision compatability, and a can. If I had to grab one and go, though, I'd gladly pick up the 16" 5.56 and roll out.
That Grendal cartridge really outclasses all the rest don't it .
Great name
virgil kane Yeah, only issue is availability of ammo
Why not 6.5 Ceedmoor? It's ballistically superior with the only two compromises.
1. More weight though still less than 7.62x51 (better balistically than 7.62x51 aswell)
2. Longer case length, though I think lenght is the best compromise you can make dimentionally given it doesn't compromise the handling or feeding properties of the round.
All this may be moot in another 10 years if the military really does do away with brass adopts the caseless telescoping ammo which provides greater energy per volume and weight.
ViolentKisses87 This video is discussing ar15 calibers, 6.5 creedmor is an ar10 caliber.
virgil kane the 6.8 is better.
Barrel length really affects velocity, and that translates to more hydrostatic damage a longer ranges... Keep that in mind. I have two AR-15s: one 16" M-4 AR-15 in 5.56/.223 for home defense, and one 20" free floated AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel for hunting medium game past 200 yards.
If you want 7.62x39 get an ak. On a side note i'd be cool if you had included 5X45 in there as well, just for comparison.
I will stay with the 5.56 just for the reasons of ammo and parts availability. I would prefer a 6.5 Grendel, but with a SHTF situation, If it is bad, don't plan on staying in one place, you will get overrun eventually unless you have an army, you will have to stay evasive and have enough gear to sustain you, but be able to move. Don't engage unless you have no other options.
Yep, guerilla warfare 101. So many think planting themselves @ home on top of a stockpile is viable
My choice for pure sniper applications would not be the AR-15, but rather an AR-10 chambered in 308. That will even offer greater terminal ballistics and ammo is far more readily available with probably an overall greater logistical compatibility. Furthermore, I wouldn't be at all surprised that cost of ammo might also be another consideration for choosing 308 over 6.5 Grendel.
Just my opinion.
Fundamentalist American. How are you gonna sit there and compare a apple to a orange. Aka a Ar15 to a ar10...
6.5creed vs .308 makes more sense.
Two uppers, one lower. First upper is in 5.56 with a LPVO. Second upper is in 6.5 Grendel, also with a LPVO. The LPVO is on a Bobro QD mount with dope for both loads memorized. 120 rounds for the 6.5, and 500 rounds for the 5.56. With food, water, and essentials, the complete load out is 57 pounds. Both uppers have backup irons.
16:32 lol "I got guns in my room, in the den and the kitchen.... and in the bathroom, so I aint even slippin' while im shitin' " -Jelly Roll
Thanks Rex for another great video
Honestly the 25-45 chambering is the best.
300 BLK is also a good choice for home defence. Even unsuppressed subsonic loads will be the quietest option (important in a home defense situation where you're likely not using hearing protection) and they were designed largely with cqb in mind.
6.5 Grendel, PROS-
1. Better BC than all others, with the flattest trajectory. ( 200 yard zero, I aim 1 in high at 300 and 1 in low at 100yards.)
2. Uses 7.62x39 brass and many 6.5 pills
3. Wolf makes .25 cent steel case ammo
4. Beats all others in energy, when comparing barrel length inch to inch from 10in-24in (There are certain times when 6.8 can be 5-10% or so higher energy say at the muzzle-100yds, but if you were to compare which has the most energy every 100 yards for 1200-1500 yards grendel wins, and remember that's comparing same barrel length to barrel length ).
5. Russian AK-12 is offering a chambering in 6.5 grendel. (Probably why wolf makes it, but we cant own one because we live in one of those "free" countries)
CONS- No Pmags
PS- I own 5.56, 6.8, 6.5 and 300 Blackout ARs. So I'm not someone who is defending a purchase I made. Ive made dozens of them ;).
68ics.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/6-5-grendel-ballistics-123-grain-lapua/
This was discussed in another forum talking about which would be better in a 10.5 in barrel, and the gentleman used JBMs ballistic calculator Similar results can be seen comparing all barrel lengths. --
As mentioned above, I ran the ballistics:
A 10.5" 6.5 Grendel SBR launches a 123 Sierra MatchKing (BC.510) at 2175 fps using Black Hills ammunition.
A 10" 6.8 SPC SBR launches a 115 Sierra MatchKing (BC.324) at 2265 fps using Silver State ammunition.
As far as velocity at 300 yards, 65G has 1726 and the 68SPC has 1515, a difference of 211 fps. Which is better, to have more velocity at impact or to have less velocity?
As far as energy at 300 yards, the 65G has 813 and the 68SPC has 586, a difference of 227 ft/lbs. Which is better, to have more energy at impact or to have less energy?
Did I mention the 6.5 Grendel SBR also shoots flatter and drifts less in wind (13.5" vs. 14.8" for drop and 9" vs. 15.1" for drift)?
I really don't think instantly declaring the 6.8 SPC a "better choice for a 10.5" barrel" is as cut-and-dried as you make it seem.
Thanks for the helpful review. Constructive criticism: the word criterion is singular. The word criteria is plural and used when you compare more than one variable.
Along with 5.56, the 6.5 Grendel is looking pretty legit for the AR15 platform.
Grendel is unreliable and physically abusive to the AR platform.
5.56 is the way to go in the Ar-15 platform. If you are shot in the chest within 600m, you're gonna have a bad day. Especially with the 69-77 gr stuff. Undeniably m855 is shit if you are dealing with an unarmored target that is not behind a light barrier, it is good at poking holes, not making lethal wounds. m193 is still incredibly devastating at 500m despite its lower weight and BC.
The best may be debated. The best for me at the time is my Bear Creek Arsenal twins in 7.62x39 16" side charge and 6.5 Grendel 20" slick side rear charge. One is a cheap plinker and shorter range deer buster and the other is a precision target tamer and all range deer buster(all range for my ability that is which likely won't exceed 350 yards if that far even).
@21:40 skip to what you came for. His conclusion, there is no best ammo. All situational.
personally i would go .556 for a SHTF upper and with 6.5 grendel for a longer range DMR. or possibly a totally different ar in .308... great vid.
I not even gonna read the comments but the 5.56 is the best I'd rather be able to carry 800 rounds of 5.56 than 200 rounds of 308 or these other dollar a piece bullets I've drop a deer at around 500 yards with it so that's good enough for me
KS47 IN THE 7.62X39 MM YOU CAN MAKE A 6.5 Upper with least an 18" barrel 1/7 twist and still use your AK47 mags
6.5 grendel has the best ballistics performance at longer range among all of these rounds.
the 6.8spc is close behind but has the advantage to have a specific rifle designed for it : the LWRC SIX-8.
The six-8 should ideally be the new standard assault rifle and the 6.8spc the new standard caliber.
Only had to watch until 5:45 to know the answer for me, already shooting it, already reloading it, I will be good to go. didn't even finish the video, don't know much about any of the other mentioned calibers except 300 blackout. Love the vids Rex, keep up the good work.
most of the entire video 6.8 and 7.62 felt left out
While the 5.56mm is great in this platform I really love the 300 Blackout because of it's versatility. Super sonic to sub sonic, 110gr bullets up to 240gr bullets, what more could you ask for.
I've always typically seen more energy out of the 6.8 over the 6.5 out to 300 esp matching barrel length. When did the 6.5 get more energy at muzzle?
It didn't, you are correct. Esp. the 6.8 SPC II. It cycles better, has better velocities and energy out to 200 yards and in an SBR build SPC II is KING in Ar 15 platform.
It looks like he just used box data for this comparison, which is wildly inaccurate/unfair in the comparison given 6.8 uses a 16” barrel and Grendel uses a 24” barrel for box data.
Especially important if you you hand load, the 6.8 case/bolt can take higher chamber pressure and has greater area on the base of the bullet, it will have faster muzzle velocities for the same weight bullet and barrel length.
My favorite........270 Winchester. I have used it to take all of the North American game on the Continent and it works as stated.
Been around for years and has a large following for reloading. Can load it to ungodly levels, if you have a Weatherby action, and will hit out to ranges that you cannot see. Mild recoil from all the rest and flat shooting. Quibbling argument between the 6mm to .27 class of bullets.
The main thing.......do I want my pet caliber to be chambered in a semi-auto?
NO. Give the gun grabbers another cartridge to go play with.
I have to say! The best cartridge to shoot in your ar15, is the one the book that came with your gun says? or what's printed on the side of the receiver of coarse? I had a bud splitting casings in his .40? turns out ,it's not a 9? lol
btw! If it's a mad max scenario, you must pack plenty of duds!
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!
I love you vid format! I just want to comment as I go, and comment often!
for home defence , the best thing to learn, is take a knee while placing the shot! no matter what gun you use, you have a better idea of where your shot will track? not so good for the guy two miles down the road, but didn't shoot your daughters boy friend on accident! The whole thing is messed up anyway! at least you could have a didn't think it would come back down defence!
Here is the dinger! when you are as good as Trex! A .22 or anything above is just fine!
Fellas , something should be definitely discussed. He touched on it. But the Mag. Some nice,some not so nice. Ammo is nice and works on your new build but. What happens when that ammo does not cycle? Mags are your life line. Stove pipe. You are screwed. Magpul mags work really good on mine. Share your thoughts on your mags.
5.56
video over
USMC just released a Purchase Order for 6,500 H&K M27 Infantry Assault Rifles (which is a souped up HK 416 with a heavy 16.5" barrel meant for sustained fire). The USMC also has standing procedure to issue 62gr SOST Mk318 ammunition in any combat zone. The terminal performance for the SOST round is highly regarded.
Rex what do you think of the m855a1? That is one bad ass round. Wish it was available to the public.
What makes you say that?
Oh yeah I knew that I just forgot. Yeah they usually run about 3400fps compared to 2900 to 3000fps in m855.
I like the M855A1. It runs great out of the M4. What I've noticed is they tend to be hard on the feedramps because you have that exposed hard penetrator beating it up. I have a vid on my channel of me doing some burst mag dumps with the stuff.
C Cool I will check it out.
What's your channel name?
I think that the best cartridge for the AR15 is a 77 grain sierra match king loaded over 25.2 grains of AA2520 in a lake city case with a CCI milspec primer. its good for 2750 FPS out of my 20 inch Criterion match barrel with 3/4 MOA precision. Out of my 20 inch BCM .gov profile barrel its won't shoot that tight but its still good for 1.5 MOA. At any distance a 5.56MM cartridge is appropriate, this is a LETHAL COMBO. If this wont get it done, you need to reach for a bigger gun.
6.8 SPC II 140 grain sniper round from SSA is still supersonic at 1000 meters, its more powerful than a 7.62x51 147 grain FMJ.
glennwih But isn't it a dead round now in days
Well, I consider it the replacement for the 5.56 because the US military knows the Black Hills 77 grain 5.56 round still doesn't knock down bad guys at long distances. So, I can go to 75% of sporting goods stores and find 6.8 SPC II Horandy 110 and 120 grain SXTs. My rifle shoots 1/4" groups at 100 yards. It is highly efficient.
Yes, sir! Great special purpose or hunting round where your life does not depend upon continuous ammunition resupply.
What Rex didn't cover is having a shorty upper in 5.56 and a longbow 6.8 swap out kit upper for your AR lower. Best of both worlds.
glennwih
how is it better than M80? it has less energy (1/3 less), more drop, more wind drift, and more expensive.
I have had a 5.56 AR for years and wanted to get another AR. I was thinking of going with a larger caliber. I ended up getting another 5.56 since it was so much cheaper for me. I already had around ten 5.56 mags, and a lot of ammo.
wheres the sharps 25-45 I was hoping you where going to cover it. :(
bee free 2nd that, you should annotate with the 25-45
I have to hand it to you Rex. I have build a multi caliber AR using the frontier tactical warlock. Right now I have the 5.56 barrel, the 7.62x39 barrel. I have one more barrel receiver, which with your information to change my AR into a sniper I'll be going with the 6.5 Grendel. By doing this I already have two 5.56 bolts and one 7.62 bolt which I plan to get another 7.62 bolt for back up. I know that the 6.5 works with the 5.56 bolt. The next thing after the 6.5 barrel would be getting an upper that can spit out the larger casings like the 458 socom or 50 Beowolf. Your right on that there is almost 100 different calibers, right now we are at 90 different calibers.
mike smidee 6.5 uses a standard upper, but requires a 7.62 based bolt. Grendel I Chambers use the same 7.62x39 AR bolt, Grendel II chambers require a dedicated grendel bolt to headspace properly.
Grendel uses it's own bolt. Go with the Grendel II chamber though, while the Grendel I chamber can share the X39 bolt, the bolt's not as strong as the II bolt, because it has a shallower bolt face .125 vs .136. The deeper face on the II bolt leaves more beef around the lugs.
Probably an AR chambered in a 460 S & W mag. 😆
"Hiding behind your car is not an option, it only impedes my aim."
badlandskid 50 cal Beowulf, 480 Socom, 450 bushmaster.,
That 5.56 bullet selection video you mentioned at 23:24 would be AWESOME. Thank you!
"Medium ranges like 600 to 700yds.." Wtf..? :D That's like 3 times the range an average AR-toting dude can hit anything smaller then a barn door..
love my 5.56, havent stepped my 6.5 out at range yet but at 200 yards its accurate and the recoil impulse feels less violent than the 5.56
Bad reputation in nam? The m-16 was known as the meat axe!
And if you already have a 5.56 AR, you can work on buying and building more upper halves chambered for the other popular cartridge offerings and cover all your bases, provided you have a few seconds to pull your takedown pins and swap uppers when you need to make a switch.
They will all kill your adversary
Tula! Lmao
Cartridges don’t kill people
This video has convinced me that the overall preferred cartridge for the AR 15 was the one for which Eugene Stoner had been used to come up with in the 1950s. Namely, the .308 Winchester or 7.62 x 51 mm. The 5.56 NATO is a weakened high velocity, smaller cartridge designed for soldiers to carry more ammo that could be used in full auto rifles, namely the M-16. While the 5.56 NATO round is effective at distances under 400 yards, the velocity drops off at longer distances past 600 yards. All of the other calibers mentioned are somewhat of an apology why the 5.56 NATO round is a closer range cartridge, useful for hunting smaller sized game. In many states the 5.56 NATO round is not a legitimate hunting round for mid-sized game or larger. All of the other calibers named fall short of the 7.62 NATO round and you certainly are not going to see these on the shelf at Wal Mart.
I like the wildcat 6x6.8 spc
3DHUSKER I like the 6.5 Grendal. Or would love to get some m855a1 for 556. What part of the Husker Nation you from? Think we can go undefeated this year. I do if we get Westercamp back this week.
Hard Target . I grew up in North Central Neb on a large ranch. I like the win out idea. 👍 💀
Its pretty cool meeting an other member of Husker Nation I live in South Central area. Hopefully we can keep the momentum going.
I have 2 AR15 grendels. one is a heavy barrel 20 in, the other a light barrel 16 in. Also a Howa bolt action with a 20 in heavy barrel. Grendel is a great round. Ammo is in a lot of stores now from hornady, PPU, and wolf. The wolf is about $10 a box.
Lmao
.277 Wolverine forever!!!
For me the 277 Wolverine won my vote for a general purpose and fun shooting rifle - I love both the 12" and 20" for different reasons - the 300 blk never got the results I wanted in my 10.5" barrel. yes having 223/556 as backup is always good for availability of ammo. But reloading once fired LC Brass with 277 Wolverine is a real treat and easy on the pocket as well. Hope to see a few optimized bullets for it in the future though it keeps up with the 6.8 spc factory loads pretty well so the same weight bullets perform well in both until you get past the 130gr - would just like to see a little longer bullet since the wolverine has a shorter case - loading at full mag length with lighter bullets would be very cool indeed - a smaller version of those used in 6.5 LBC and such
Where the heck can i get 6.5 Grendel ammo that is still pumping out 1,400 lbs of energy at 250 yards?!?!
That's gotta be some kind of mistake, the hottest grendel loads have trouble staying above 1,000 at 300 yards.
Boy agreed. The wind is a Beach. I can get my holds out to 650-800yards but that last bit to 1000 especially when it’s gusting a little bit and then my target has to jump in front of the bullet to catch it. Bullet drop is easy, gravity is gravity. It’s an easy calculation, but wind is a beast at times.
I one day hope to see Rex as Trumps press secretary.
LOL
The problem with 6.5 Grendel, etc. is bolt strength for the Stoner design mil-spec dimensions. (.300 AAC gets around this by using 556 brass). Point being, the bolt face is machined larger to accommodate the larger diameter cartridge base thereby significantly weakening the bolt locking lug integrity. This is why Sharps came out with its tool steel relia-bolt - which has had a very mixed reliability history.