I'm from Hamburg, Germany, and we have the "Harley days" every summer. A massive three days festival with thousands of riders and visitors. The final act is a parade and the pavements are always packed with people cheering. You can see and feel that HD has its place within the German automotive culture. The 48 held top 20 spots in the overall sales list for nearly as long as it existed. Even top 10 spots at the peak of the modern classic / hipster era, when you either bought a R NineT or a 48. The 883 Iron wasn't far behind in terms of sales numbers. I doubt a classic Sportster is coming back. Nakeds and ADVs are the most popular type of motorcycles in Germany (and Europe in general). Everybody loved and wanted the Bronx. KTM don't sell that many 990 Dukes, but Ducatis new V2s will sell I feel. The Hornet 1000 will sale like hot cake. I don't think we'll see a Bronx. I've never seen a Nightster outside a dealership, even not at the Harley Days no joke. The PanAm is liked but not bought either. The Sportster S is the only RevMax that sells at least half decent. What can HD do with the RevMax platform? Make a "Super Hooligan" PanAm roadbike? I feel the slickest move modelwise would be: A swap of the Lowrider / Lowrider ST to the RevMax platform. While bringing back the Super Glide Sport / T-Sport on the Softail platform. What do you think?
@@chopperking1967 very true I have always said Harley's biggest competitor is their 5-10 year old bikes on market place. Such a better deal than buying news
I have been a HD fan since 1988. Ive owned every major brand except BMW. i couldn't afford a HD till i was in my late 20s. They have never been cheap, it never will be unless they import or make the smaller bikes here. Personally i don't want a smaller bike right now. I have 2 RGs and a PA, all great bikes. You are correct on used bikes, thats the way id go right now. The M8 motor is outstanding, and with the bugs worked out of the Revolution motor, it makes nice power. As far as Indian, i doubt they are going anywhere, Polaris will keep them around. As far as stock vs modified, i change the seat, bars, and exhaust.
My best guess after visiting an Indian dealer, their prices are just as inflated with a smaller share of the market than HD. Both motor companies are huffing their own with these prices. Indian is down, but their dealers could care less, keep on pricing em high I guess.
The people in my circle that are upset about HD are not buying new bikes. They all have 10+ year old bikes. Other than a t-shirt they are not spending money. Can not wait to see how the company pivots.
I think they are sticking to new bikes only to streamline everything and only get the gravy money. When I worked at a car dealership as a tech it was strange to get a vehicle in that was over 15 years old. Plus people still stop by for shirts and merchandise which I don't think any other brand does as well as Harley. A very odd overall experience with them.
Personally I see a HUGE mo ve to 300-500, maybe 750 cc bikes at around 5-7k. Tons of new, great options once you get away from HD. The past year has been a huge wakeup call for me - 40+ years of loyalty from me (10 bikes) they ruined it for me with the woke crap and moving more production to Thailand. I suppose Indian is the direct competitor, but as you said, Honda is up - bringing out 5 different 500cc bikes - bringing everything from the lowest cost dual sport (the awesome XR125l) to selling every single NC750 they can make (there is a waiting list - in am verbally on it, no $ down but curious... its so different with the actual and the storage) Triumph is owning the modern classic market... Kawasaki has waiting lists all over 3 states near me for a W800... I think the greatest damage HD ever did - EVER - they did to themselves this past year of 2024. I know I've bought my last HD and while i will keep my pre-woke 2007 Road King Custom on my channel... the next bike will probably be a mid size dual sport like the RE Himalayan or the Honda or the Triumph scrambler. Happy to subscribe. Keep up the vids and enjoy the miles! 👊
@@Motorcyclewindtherapy appreciate it and yeah judging by numbers Indian is way behind the pace. Is harley Woke? I don't think so at all. The company dosnt change based on what a ceo said we all know that. I am looking forward to some smaller cc options and cheaper bikes IF they decide to do that.
@wretchednation3557 ive been riding HDs since i got out of the infantry on '89. I bought that EVO on a handshake and mailed them dealer a check for 3 years from all over this country to pay for it. If you're happy with the direction of the company, good deal. I've seen too much - not just from the internet but first hand (i have clients that own a HD dealership) the support of anti traditional values, anti American workers, the way they treat their dealers... it's just not the same company to me. But again, it's really cool too. The revelation of the past year allowed me to look up, look around. No one has been more loyal than me over the decades. I've been HOG, bought new bikes from dealers, and countless money on parts. Gear, clothing, etc... im the guy they didn't want to lose... but they did. The CEO and the board are directly responsible for the direction of any company. I'm not here to change anyone's mind... my decision is made and I put a video of debadging my RK on my channel... im good with my decision. Also, I like the idea of different kinds of bikes... its cool to look around. I haven't done that before. Lots of great choices out there. No matter what you ride. We need more riders. Enjoy the miles! 👊
Harley have so many good second hand options, many buy a new bike do some custom work with AM parts, it gets recycled back into the dealer's, next gen or an older buyer buy this stock always looking for a really good deal. Harley wont tank the brand is dna ingrained as the best custom platform in the market.
One out of three street motorcycles sold in America is a Harley. Polaris Razors prop up Indian without the 4-wheeler sales Indian would’ve already been gone. Indian only has like 300 dealers nationwide HD has 645 And those Indian numbers sound inflated because they are only in 40 states. I’m sick of hearing the lies about Indian!
When I started riding Harleys 20 years ago they still offered honest motorcycles like the Evo Sportster and the Dyna. I didn't want a "luxury" motorcycle then and I don't want one now. I'm not building a show bike we're looking for a status symbol. I just want to ride. For the first time a Harley doesn't offer a single motorcycle that I would buy. I don't want a heavy Luxo bagger and I wouldn't touch anything with a Revmax engine. Honda is looking pretty good right now.
Just to be curious what would you be interested at Honda. If it was me I would want that cheap enduro dirt bike that's street legal for $3k. Harley is never gonna offer anything like that so there is no competition.
@wretchednation3557 The Honda that I have my eye on is Scrambler 500 for mostly on-road and some mild off-road. I've toured on a 500cc and an 883 before. With an aftermarket seat and a detachable windshield bikes of this size are very capable. I had Road King shocks on my Sportster. I was able to tour 2-up and pull the trailer behind it from Pennsylvania to Texas. Then I took that bike to Key West and back. I like to keep my bikes under 600 lbs and under $10,000. So far in the past 35 years I've had Harley's, Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasaki, and I've never paid more than $10,000 for a bike. For me freedom is no payments, low weight, and low fuel cost.
By definition, it IS a community. Community definition (Yes, I Googled it): a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common. i.e. the scientific community. What does your comment have anything to do with his topic other than to nit-pick at his choice of words?
So if Indian doesn’t have ‘heritage’ does that, too mean Triumph has no ‘heritage.’ I didn’t buy my Scout 101 because of heritage - though I do love the Indian Motorcycle brand way over that of Harley. I bought it because it beats the heck out of anything Harley makes. Harley will, in fact fail. I don’t want to see it because I appreciate all bikes but they absolutely will. Because like you said, the average Harley rider ain’t buying new. The new Harley buyer looks at Indian, Ducati, Triumph, BMW, etc. all brands out-doing Harley. And other brands are easily ‘accessorized’ as you say… plenty of pipes, seats, mirrors for Indian Motorcycles and even my Ducatis. Sure, jug kits are tricky. But when the bike is engineered right you don’t need to spend 10k on a bigger motor lmao.
When I say heritage I mainly just mean a reason for people to go buy the merch. Nobody does it better than Harley. If we are gonna see a drop of motorcycle sales like we already have that's gonna help Harley out. Indian is gonna get help from Polaris.
People are holding on their bikes just like people are holding on their cars. Economy has been hot garbage with bidenomics..it will improve with trump. Harley is overpriced and underpowered
Nonsense. Indian is Indian. Yes, owned by Polaris but run as a stand alone. Harley used to be owned by AMF and made everything from boats to snowmobiles, to RVs to bomb casings. The only constant is change. The best thing for H-D, and their customer, is competition. Go back to school.
@@HowardHunt-s7z I think Polaris owning Indian is a good thing for them. I believe the next year or two is gonna hurt for motorcycle sales so having a bigger corp is gonna help that. In tern it could hurt them if atv get more popular and the bikes dip Polaris might kill thier motorcycle brand a second time.
I've never heard better news than hearing that Polaris's venture into the touring/cruiser motorcycle is not working out. Maybe they will leave all their customers high and dry like they did with the Victory Line. The social aspect of what Harley Davidson supposedly did this year will blow the chaff and reveal the true loyal owners. There has been a lot of new riders and new people buying Harleys which is 110% fine. We ride the motorcycles for the name, and some of us don't care for the MoCo as a whole anyhow. I wouldn't say that the customizability was the selling point for me. I love the simplicity Harley provides. I agree with you on the customizability, the Drag catalog is over 1000 pages of parts and accessories for HD bikes. And a very limited inventory of parts for Indians. Parts Unlimited does have a good line for the other motorcycle companies. I would say this about being a tech. Harley has started to cut out parts on a lot of TC models. I'm talking major components that would leave a customer no choice but to buy another bike. Parts the aftermarket world has not been able to reproduce. Which is horrific, as there are still a lot of TC bikes on the road, and those bike still have a huge longevity seeing as how the last model was 7 years ago. Most dealers won't work on models 10yrs old or earlier. So I believe there is a huge push for the M8 and the Revolution platform.
@@chasingwhitelines Definitely a huge push to not work or support bikes older then 10 years which is fine. I think the motorco is trying to streamline the business and work on efficiency. Luckily for Harley owners the aftermarket will take care of everything.
@ youre right there are a lot of aftermarket parts. Some require functioning electronic components that are only available through Bosch now that Harley has discontinued them. And im not talking about ECMs
@ the throttle actuator/motor on the throttle body. If you have HPI build an intake you must have a functioning actuator assembly to go with it. As rare as it is for them to fail, it is possible. The plastic gears on the inside don’t last forever. Harley has changed the part numbers on them and the size of the intake assembly themselves through out the years as well. Luckily the M8s can be separated from intake assembly, and of course they have them available for that platform.
I'm from Hamburg, Germany, and we have the "Harley days" every summer. A massive three days festival with thousands of riders and visitors. The final act is a parade and the pavements are always packed with people cheering. You can see and feel that HD has its place within the German automotive culture.
The 48 held top 20 spots in the overall sales list for nearly as long as it existed. Even top 10 spots at the peak of the modern classic / hipster era, when you either bought a R NineT or a 48.
The 883 Iron wasn't far behind in terms of sales numbers.
I doubt a classic Sportster is coming back.
Nakeds and ADVs are the most popular type of motorcycles in Germany (and Europe in general).
Everybody loved and wanted the Bronx.
KTM don't sell that many 990 Dukes, but Ducatis new V2s will sell I feel. The Hornet 1000 will sale like hot cake.
I don't think we'll see a Bronx.
I've never seen a Nightster outside a dealership, even not at the Harley Days no joke.
The PanAm is liked but not bought either.
The Sportster S is the only RevMax that sells at least half decent.
What can HD do with the RevMax platform?
Make a "Super Hooligan" PanAm roadbike?
I feel the slickest move modelwise would be:
A swap of the Lowrider / Lowrider ST to the RevMax platform.
While bringing back the Super Glide Sport / T-Sport on the Softail platform.
What do you think?
That's awesome. I feel like they need to lean into the new nightster hard. It's gonna be the new dyna once the aftermarket builds it.
It's NOT that people don't want a Harley. There are many people, the young included, who would choose Harley, IF they could afford one.
@@chopperking1967 very true I have always said Harley's biggest competitor is their 5-10 year old bikes on market place. Such a better deal than buying news
I do not want a Harley lol. Three Ducatis, two Suzukis, one Indian, and a Buell Hammerhead I have a deposit on… 30 years old.
I have been a HD fan since 1988. Ive owned every major brand except BMW. i couldn't afford a HD till i was in my late 20s. They have never been cheap, it never will be unless they import or make the smaller bikes here. Personally i don't want a smaller bike right now. I have 2 RGs and a PA, all great bikes. You are correct on used bikes, thats the way id go right now. The M8 motor is outstanding, and with the bugs worked out of the Revolution motor, it makes nice power.
As far as Indian, i doubt they are going anywhere, Polaris will keep them around.
As far as stock vs modified, i change the seat, bars, and exhaust.
🙌
Harley coming back strong in 2025
Buy a frame and dress it up, that’s what it’s all about no one has the same!!!
Indian is down, because they can’t take any more Harley’s in on trade. The Harley’s aren’t worth enough at auction to satisfy existing loans.
@@soldierboy425 would like to know why Indian is actually down.
You’re so smart, bless your heart.
My best guess after visiting an Indian dealer, their prices are just as inflated with a smaller share of the market than HD. Both motor companies are huffing their own with these prices. Indian is down, but their dealers could care less, keep on pricing em high I guess.
As are most every motorcycle.
I just upgraded from a Sport Glide to a new Harley CVO Road Glide 121. Go Harley !!
Is that one the vvt? How do you like it?
2024 Heritage - my first Harley and it's damn delicious. A+ cruiser
Congratulations
The people in my circle that are upset about HD are not buying new bikes. They all have 10+ year old bikes. Other than a t-shirt they are not spending money. Can not wait to see how the company pivots.
I think they are sticking to new bikes only to streamline everything and only get the gravy money. When I worked at a car dealership as a tech it was strange to get a vehicle in that was over 15 years old. Plus people still stop by for shirts and merchandise which I don't think any other brand does as well as Harley. A very odd overall experience with them.
Your the first guy that I have heard out of a good 10 or so that see it as it is 👊🏼⚡️
Appreciate it. I try and have a very good perspective on things and not have a clouded view.
Personally I see a HUGE mo ve to 300-500, maybe 750 cc bikes at around 5-7k. Tons of new, great options once you get away from HD. The past year has been a huge wakeup call for me - 40+ years of loyalty from me (10 bikes) they ruined it for me with the woke crap and moving more production to Thailand.
I suppose Indian is the direct competitor, but as you said, Honda is up - bringing out 5 different 500cc bikes - bringing everything from the lowest cost dual sport (the awesome XR125l) to selling every single NC750 they can make (there is a waiting list - in am verbally on it, no $ down but curious... its so different with the actual and the storage)
Triumph is owning the modern classic market... Kawasaki has waiting lists all over 3 states near me for a W800...
I think the greatest damage HD ever did - EVER - they did to themselves this past year of 2024. I know I've bought my last HD and while i will keep my pre-woke 2007 Road King Custom on my channel... the next bike will probably be a mid size dual sport like the RE Himalayan or the Honda or the Triumph scrambler.
Happy to subscribe. Keep up the vids and enjoy the miles! 👊
@@Motorcyclewindtherapy appreciate it and yeah judging by numbers Indian is way behind the pace. Is harley Woke? I don't think so at all. The company dosnt change based on what a ceo said we all know that. I am looking forward to some smaller cc options and cheaper bikes IF they decide to do that.
@wretchednation3557 ive been riding HDs since i got out of the infantry on '89. I bought that EVO on a handshake and mailed them dealer a check for 3 years from all over this country to pay for it. If you're happy with the direction of the company, good deal.
I've seen too much - not just from the internet but first hand (i have clients that own a HD dealership) the support of anti traditional values, anti American workers, the way they treat their dealers... it's just not the same company to me.
But again, it's really cool too. The revelation of the past year allowed me to look up, look around. No one has been more loyal than me over the decades. I've been HOG, bought new bikes from dealers, and countless money on parts. Gear, clothing, etc... im the guy they didn't want to lose... but they did. The CEO and the board are directly responsible for the direction of any company.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind... my decision is made and I put a video of debadging my RK on my channel... im good with my decision. Also, I like the idea of different kinds of bikes... its cool to look around. I haven't done that before. Lots of great choices out there. No matter what you ride. We need more riders. Enjoy the miles! 👊
Harley have so many good second hand options, many buy a new bike do some custom work with AM parts, it gets recycled back into the dealer's, next gen or an older buyer buy this stock always looking for a really good deal. Harley wont tank the brand is dna ingrained as the best custom platform in the market.
Honda dominating in the 1200 and below market.
1200 cc? I'm sure they are. Would love to see some new old school single engine pocket Harley bikes
Gòod analysis. HD has nothing backing up their motorcycle sales but tee shirts. 😢
The crazy thing is I think that is what will help them.
One out of three street motorcycles sold in America is a Harley. Polaris Razors prop up Indian without the 4-wheeler sales Indian would’ve already been gone. Indian only has like 300 dealers nationwide HD has 645 And those Indian numbers sound inflated because they are only in 40 states. I’m sick of hearing the lies about Indian!
@@jamesstafford62 I would love to actually dive into Indian and see what's really going on there.
I was thinking Indian was the competition when you asked.
@@chopperking1967 I thought Indian would have been closer before I looked into it.
When I started riding Harleys 20 years ago they still offered honest motorcycles like the Evo Sportster and the Dyna. I didn't want a "luxury" motorcycle then and I don't want one now. I'm not building a show bike we're looking for a status symbol. I just want to ride. For the first time a Harley doesn't offer a single motorcycle that I would buy. I don't want a heavy Luxo bagger and I wouldn't touch anything with a Revmax engine.
Honda is looking pretty good right now.
Just to be curious what would you be interested at Honda. If it was me I would want that cheap enduro dirt bike that's street legal for $3k. Harley is never gonna offer anything like that so there is no competition.
@wretchednation3557 The Honda that I have my eye on is Scrambler 500 for mostly on-road and some mild off-road. I've toured on a 500cc and an 883 before. With an aftermarket seat and a detachable windshield bikes of this size are very capable. I had Road King shocks on my Sportster. I was able to tour 2-up and pull the trailer behind it from Pennsylvania to Texas. Then I took that bike to Key West and back. I like to keep my bikes under 600 lbs and under $10,000. So far in the past 35 years I've had Harley's, Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasaki, and I've never paid more than $10,000 for a bike.
For me freedom is no payments, low weight, and low fuel cost.
@ I feel that. The best bike is a paid off bike.
Triumph beats Harley on looks, reliability, performance, and price
@@sean8470 probably
That's opinion, yours. Then why are you watching a channel about HD?
Just because people ride motorcycles doesn’t mean they’re a “community.” Community means sacrificing something.
@@George-k8b what are we sacrificing?
By definition, it IS a community. Community definition (Yes, I Googled it): a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common. i.e. the scientific community.
What does your comment have anything to do with his topic other than to nit-pick at his choice of words?
@ would also like to know lol
It's the auto industry as all, everything becomes overpriced and not affordable
@@AJRides yeah the auto industry is tanking.
Aftermarket exists so much with Harley because of their inferior oem parts
@@sean8470 yeah interior is pretty rough.
So if Indian doesn’t have ‘heritage’ does that, too mean Triumph has no ‘heritage.’ I didn’t buy my Scout 101 because of heritage - though I do love the Indian Motorcycle brand way over that of Harley. I bought it because it beats the heck out of anything Harley makes. Harley will, in fact fail. I don’t want to see it because I appreciate all bikes but they absolutely will. Because like you said, the average Harley rider ain’t buying new. The new Harley buyer looks at Indian, Ducati, Triumph, BMW, etc. all brands out-doing Harley. And other brands are easily ‘accessorized’ as you say… plenty of pipes, seats, mirrors for Indian Motorcycles and even my Ducatis. Sure, jug kits are tricky. But when the bike is engineered right you don’t need to spend 10k on a bigger motor lmao.
When I say heritage I mainly just mean a reason for people to go buy the merch. Nobody does it better than Harley. If we are gonna see a drop of motorcycle sales like we already have that's gonna help Harley out. Indian is gonna get help from Polaris.
People are holding on their bikes just like people are holding on their cars. Economy has been hot garbage with bidenomics..it will improve with trump. Harley is overpriced and underpowered
I believe the auto industry is going to get worse here soon not better.
Buy and old FxR or FXDX and drop $20K in custom work for a very nice bike
Doing something very similar on a 08 dyna. Wanted to build a 6speed dyna and we are doing a series on it here if you want to check it out.
Nothing will happen to harley Davidson nothing .
Nonsense. Indian is Indian. Yes, owned by Polaris but run as a stand alone. Harley used to be owned by AMF and made everything from boats to snowmobiles, to RVs to bomb casings. The only constant is change. The best thing for H-D, and their customer, is competition. Go back to school.
@@HowardHunt-s7z I think Polaris owning Indian is a good thing for them. I believe the next year or two is gonna hurt for motorcycle sales so having a bigger corp is gonna help that. In tern it could hurt them if atv get more popular and the bikes dip Polaris might kill thier motorcycle brand a second time.
I've never heard better news than hearing that Polaris's venture into the touring/cruiser motorcycle is not working out. Maybe they will leave all their customers high and dry like they did with the Victory Line.
The social aspect of what Harley Davidson supposedly did this year will blow the chaff and reveal the true loyal owners. There has been a lot of new riders and new people buying Harleys which is 110% fine. We ride the motorcycles for the name, and some of us don't care for the MoCo as a whole anyhow. I wouldn't say that the customizability was the selling point for me. I love the simplicity Harley provides. I agree with you on the customizability, the Drag catalog is over 1000 pages of parts and accessories for HD bikes. And a very limited inventory of parts for Indians. Parts Unlimited does have a good line for the other motorcycle companies.
I would say this about being a tech. Harley has started to cut out parts on a lot of TC models. I'm talking major components that would leave a customer no choice but to buy another bike. Parts the aftermarket world has not been able to reproduce. Which is horrific, as there are still a lot of TC bikes on the road, and those bike still have a huge longevity seeing as how the last model was 7 years ago. Most dealers won't work on models 10yrs old or earlier. So I believe there is a huge push for the M8 and the Revolution platform.
@@chasingwhitelines Definitely a huge push to not work or support bikes older then 10 years which is fine. I think the motorco is trying to streamline the business and work on efficiency. Luckily for Harley owners the aftermarket will take care of everything.
You can get any part on a TC in the aftermarket. You can even get brand new TC aftermarket motors. Parts for a TC are out there.
@ youre right there are a lot of aftermarket parts. Some require functioning electronic components that are only available through Bosch now that Harley has discontinued them. And im not talking about ECMs
@@chasingwhitelinesI'm curious on the subject. What can we not get? I'm rebuilding my 08 dyna what is not available?
@ the throttle actuator/motor on the throttle body. If you have HPI build an intake you must have a functioning actuator assembly to go with it. As rare as it is for them to fail, it is possible. The plastic gears on the inside don’t last forever. Harley has changed the part numbers on them and the size of the intake assembly themselves through out the years as well. Luckily the M8s can be separated from intake assembly, and of course they have them available for that platform.