absolutely true. especially most war movies. The Bridge on the River Kwai was based on a true story, but the colonel in the story did EVERYTHING in reality to sabotage the bridge building not the deluded collaborator in movie. when the movie premiered it was seen by the widow of the colonel who was disgusted by the movie and the portrayal by Guinness.
One of my History professors in college said back in 1982 that Hollywood couldn’t help but fiddle with the facts. He maintained the most accurate film was Zulu (1964).
The most accurate portrayal of Wehrmacht uniform can be seen in the German anti war film „0815“. At first I was a little confused as to why the soldiers mostly ran around with very non-militaristic, plain white uniforms only to find out that during the time the movie was set (1939) soldiers on barrack duty and training often didn’t wear their field grey uniforms, instead they wore cheap uniforms without any dye, which made them look like bakers
Hand Grenade Division had been gone for a long time, and I hadn’t wanted to get my hopes up that he was back when he posted last week. But with 3 videos dropping…Welcome back!! 🎉
The movement of large numbers of ethnic Germans after WW2 was agreed by all of the Allies. It wasn’t just the Soviets idea. Also the Soviets weren’t the only ones committing crimes against ethnic Germans as they were forced out of some areas either. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and others were all involved. No many of the Germans were not innocent obviously. But that doesn’t mean crimes and mistreatment including murder, rape and torture committed by non Germans were ok.
You make a good point, I was trying too hard to be "tidy" in my language and inadvertently laid the responsibility for the expulsions solely at the Soviets' feet - you are correct that is not at all accurate. Thanks for pointing it out. Agree with your other points as well.
You fall squarely into German as victims category. First, mass expulsions of civilian non-Jewish populations was employed by Germany at the outset of WWII already in autumn of 1939. Expulsion of Germans was seen as kind of historical justice and was not illegal or a crime by the standards of 1945. Flight of German population was initiated by German authorities in 1944, correctly assuming advancing Red Army is set on vengeance for Wermacht atrocities in the Soviet Union. Finally, subsequent expulsions were carried out in the absence of civil administration and in many places (western Ukraine, Baltics, Poland) in the state of civil war directed against imposition of communist regimes. Needless to say, defenseless German population was an easy target with little sympathy from former victims traumatized by the war and themselves living in fear of new order. We may also keep in mind that fate of Germans was not unique, as while Germans were removed, Poles were evicted from their ancestral lands and forcibly resettled to territories reclaimed from Germany. All that was happening with the explicit blessing of the Allies.
@@pawelpap9The Russians inflicted genocide on the Poles, and murdered and raped German civilians, while their own people and returned Russian POWs and veterans were thrown into the Gulags. The NKVD got to project their own guilt for the Holodomor and such on Germany at the Neuremburg trials. The USSRs hypocrisy is astounding.
"Movement" is just a nice euphemism for internationally sanctioned ethnic cleansing, and it wasnt just against the Germans but to appease the victors apetires namley Stalins , and the west was neck deep in it.
The stereotypical German officer with a monocle and leather gloves is very hip in war films. But there were also many officers, non-commissioned officers and men who were excellent soldiers without committing war crimes.
Paul agrees, "In the light we can not see" the 2023 new Netflix war-drame series we see the Germans and especially "Von Rumpel" (played by German actor Lars Eidinger) in exactly the same role as in the BBC series "SS-GB" ( 2017) Unintentionally, the German soldiers came out as "Allo Allo Germans" in both series.
Hard to believe certain claims about war crimes when such claims state physical impossibilities such as German atomic weapons or alleged victims turning up alive and well decades later.
There is not actively engaging, and being willingly blind. While it is true only a small (Compared to overall forces) number committed what would be considered war crimes or crimes against humanity, everyone in the military was fully aware of stuff like retaliatory mass executions. Many of these were intentionally done in public, and the bodies could be left out for days as an ongoing warning. In the memoirs of one soldier, a panzer commander I believe, he comments about repeatedly seeing the execution of groups of "terrorists" as he called them. He claims to rationalize his support of Germany by seeing children in these groups and thinking this was proof bolshevists were monsters for teaching even their children to kill. Never "We just killed whoever we got our hands on". In the end he admits this was an unrealistic view. But also maintains that he and the men with him are innocent because they didn't personally pull the trigger during these events. Only supported the people who did.
@@asmodeus0454 I am one, and I disagree. Most Vietnam veterans’ biggest regret is that they were sent there in the first place, win or lose. Many of us, including me, do regret that we lost. However, unlike the Axis veterans of WW2, at least we were not trying to dominate the world 🌎.
If they were still around and would see what has become of their culture and, at least the German vets, would be able to see what has become of their inner cities: who can blame them? It´s of little consolation that the cities of the victors look very much the same these days.
The White House did attempt to defend itself from criticism about the Bitburg visit by emphasizing that most of the SS men buried there were 17/18 drafted at the end of the war not guys who had been camp personell. The visit also had a Cold War element to it. To show the strength of US-West German relations in NATO. The truth is White House officials didn't know at first who was buried there and only later did they find out. Backtracking was close to impossible once the visit had been announced.
I've always be amazed how classic hollywood ww2 films are so innacurate. Characters having contemporary behaviours and ethics, anachronistic haircuts, terrible uniforms (even allied ones), american cold war vehicles as german ones, bad shape old actors, very little regard to war crimes...
The uniforms drive me crazy. Hollywood for some reason decided that the German army wore grey uniforms. No idea why. It takes minutes to discover their uniforms were green.
@@Wolf-hh4rvThe iconic Grey uniform was a thing during the early war invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the low countries, and France. It wasn't until after the invasion of France the Grey uniform was done away with for green and tan ones of.
@@Wolf-hh4rv A lot of the movies were in black and white. So they basically set a precedent for future movies. Plus its not all bad, movies are art not documentaries. dressing actors in a certain way is important for the storytelling.
Thanks for this video, I made one similar to this but not as in depth. Post war German historiography in the Cold War has been a big interest to me. Please keep uploading again!
Thanks for mentioning your channel, I've just subscribed. Your video is quite good and I hope to find time to review more of your offerings in the coming days.
I have recently tracked down four novels portraying the German Luftwaffe during WW2, all written by German authors. 'The Falling Leaf' (1956) by Gerd Gaiser. It was printed in English in hardback under that title but the 1960 English paperback edition was titled 'The Last Squadron'. The novel portrays a FW-190 fighter squadron based on the Danish coast in mid-1943. Gaiser served in the Luftwaffe during WW2 as a staff officer but also possibly flew on operations. 'The Sky Ablaze' (1958) by Victor Schuller. Originally published in Germany under the title 'With Falling Oak Leaves & Swords, the World Below'. This novel is about a young pilot who joins a Ju-88 bomber unit in Sicily during the siege of Malta in 1942 but he later transfers to a fighter unit. He sees action over Stalingrad in early 1943 and later fights against the US daylight bomber offensive over Germany in 1944-45. I can't find any info on the author's background. 'He Flew By My Side' (1957) by Erwin Morzfeld. Novel about a Ju-88 torpedo-bomber unit operating over the North Sea. The central characters are two young pilots who, despite their contrasting personalities, become close friends. The author was a Ju-88 pilot during WW2 who was shot down and captured, spending the remainder of the war in a POW camp in Britain. 'Betrayed Skies' (1980) by Rudolf Braunburg. Novel about an FW-190 fighter unit based in Poland during the final months of WW2. The author flew with the Luftwaffe during WW2.
I expected Guy Sajer's "The Forgotten Soldier" to be included, but maybe the maker considered him not fully German as he was raised in France with parents from both France and Germany. Yet Sajer is clearly someone who lost a war and wrote about it. Sajer served with the Gross Deutschland division from 1943 to the end of the war when he was captured by British soldiers, but spent most of his service on the Russian front. His memoir makes no mention of his unit involved in any attacks on Jews or civilians, except for partisans on the Russian front. Whether this was selective editing on his part or the reality of his small unit is hard to to know. Sajer's memoir has been accused of being inaccurate in many aspects and several historians have accused him of not even being in the war or at least in the GD division. And others defend his lapses as those of an older man trying to recall his teenager years caught up in a world in flames.
Sajer's book is indeed controversial and I'm aware of the debates around him. I first read about the book in the 1990s and at the very least, the book suffers from terrible translation from French to German to English. Many of the details simply aren't correct but it seems historical consensus is swinging toward the book having actually been written by a veteran named Guy Mouminoux. I did include a picture of the book in the thumbnail thinking myself clever, but no one has commented on it yet...you're the first.
Read the book sometime in the 70's and was enthralled. I've heard both sides in regard to the controversial aspect of it and lean towards Sajer being truthful. I remember reading somewhere his pal, Hals immigrating to the U.S. and getting involved in real estate....
I’m glad you brought it up. I enjoy it as an emotional tale at least. I have tended to give it a more critical look when I listened to it a second time.
Currently reading this as well. True or not the book is damn good. Part of me is skeptical that all these interactions could be remembered with such detail. A journal that big in your coat could stop a bullet. lol
Ever notice how every single German soldier in WW2 media who is a higher rank than a private* has an iron cross? They treat it like a rank identifier where the higher the rank the higher the grade of Iron Cross. *Military media about any nation tend to not acknowledge the existence of corporals and act like solders go straight from private to sergeant. But that is a topic for another time
Thing is corporals in many countries are just glorified privates. Ie they have some authority but overall they do everything else that a private does with no extra benefits. Actually a bit more hassle since they have to command a couple of privates while lacking any privilege that comes from an NCO rank. Its not always the case but its common. Often corporals are not even rated as NCOs.
@florinivan6907 has it exactly right. For what it is worth, the topics or rank and medal distribution in the German Army are discussed elsewhere on my channel. But @florinivan6907 describes nicely what a "corporal" was in the Wehrmacht-Heer, basically a pay raise, one which did not entitle the bearer to adopt the silver and green bayonet knot of a non-commissioned officer. Some estimates have about 1 in 4 German soldiers awarded the EK2 (Iron Cross 2nd Class). I'd push back on the suggestion it was a "rank identifier" or at least the implication it was intended to be so. The ability of high ranking officers to collect the higher grades of the Iron Cross series came from its dual purpose of rewarding frontline bravery as well as military merit. So you could get any grade of the Iron Cross as a reward for the success of your unit and the men you were leading.
History is very complex and thus a detailed analysis is always required. Something the media, Hollywood and school teachers don’t explain. …sometimes for nefarious reasons, for their own benefits.
Nice video. The 1993 films "Stalingrad" and the Russian "Stalingrad" (2013 version) both featured actor Thomas Kretschmann as the German officer who had to fight in the rubble. Very good actor who has already portrayed a Nazi officer 30 times in war films, "Indiana Jones and the dial of desttiny " film and drama films. Yes The modern-day Wolfgang Preiss.
You needn't go back to WWII. Is there one single globally known Vietnam war movie that was made by the victors? "History is written by the victors" is too simple. History has always been told, and most of all by those who had the loudest voice. That role can even change over time.
On the contrary, the hysterical coverage of the Tet offensive was far more defeatist than the reality. The Viet Cong were a spent force afterwards@@ДокторЯдо
so you are saying that america unconditionally surrendered to the vietnamese and its armies were disbanded, after which they were put in an anti democracyfication where all traces of the previous regime was removed from the streets, books and people?
I first came across Sven Hassel’s books when I was a teenager in the 1970s. I had already become addicted to WWII history and these were the first fictional WWII books I read The books were the beginning of my personal library that is 50 years later approaching 10k books. I currently have Hassel’s books in ebook format on my iPad and will occasionally re-read some of my favorites. I grew up watching The Rat Patrol and Combat! and have both series on DVD.
SS General was the first Sven Hassel book I read. Yes he was a fictional writer who took liberties with the truth, but he was a good writer and his characters resonated with me completely. In SS General between each chapter Hassel writes about the Night of Long Knives and the events that led to the killing of Rohm and other leaders of the S.A. It is very well done and is as close to the the real events as one can be.
This was very interesting and educational. Excellent research and very well written. There really is a serious disconnect with how World War II is portrayed in the Hollywood films verses the reality of what it was really like. Entertainment comes first and historical accuracy second. Will there ever be a World War II story told from the German side that just shows it exactly as it was? That is still yet to be seen.
The word "0815" is a colloquial term in German slang for something average, ordinary or standard. It is often used to describe something that is not particularly original or imaginative. The term originally came from military jargon and was later adopted into common usage to refer to standard or everyday items that have nothing special or unique.
I remember the Sven Hassel and Kessler novels well from the early 1980's... they sold them in the NAAFI shops where i was based during my RAF days. they were fun, but obviously fiction based on real events, battles etc
I've read them all and although I thoroughly enjoyed them Hassel tried claiming they were "autobiographical". It was pretty obvious though that they couldn't be unless he could be in two places at once. The film version of Wheels Of Terror was appalling. Having the two big stars David Carradine and Oliver Reed only appearing at the beginning and end was a joke. They obviously only did it for the money. 😂
I'd argue that memoirs written by ex-Wehrmacht members living in West Germany don't go against the saying "History is written by the victors", since they sort of landed themselves on the winning side of the Cold War. I believe that their writings would have fallen into obscurity if the Soviet Union somehow came on top and gained the cultural dominance.
Its actually pretty common for history to be writren by the loser in my opinion. Many major civilizations claimed to be descentants of troy. Rome did with the Aeneid. And england did it with arthur. Also if you live in the usa, the mythos of the CSA has rooted itself so severely, that the 'cause of the civil war' on the naturalization exam is the question that has 2 correct answers. Or how the hippies/counter culture movement, the group that truly lost that era, is seen as the "good side" of 1960s-70s.... Losers write history all the time. Maybe because its easier to glorify what could have been instead of what was and is.
I am reading German-American, Peter Schwarzlose's book "Gulag". He had a German father and an American mother who were divorced. He was visiting his wealthy father in summer if 1939 when the war broke out and his own father thought he should serve Germany rather than go to Switzerland with his mother. As a teen, he had traveled with his mother from the US without need for a passport. The book reads like a novel and does have "stereotypical" characters in it. The author repeatedly relates how much he despised the regime for which he eventually was forced to fight. However, he includes some photos to back up his story. The level of detail is incredible and there is quite a bit of remembrances on sexual encounters. However, it remains a fascinating read, even if it appears embellished.
Very interesting - Panzer Gunner tells a similar story about a Canadian trapped in Germany and who fought in an armoured unit. There seem to be lots of stories of North Americans who ended up with the Germans. I believe there was a Rudi Salvermoser from New Jersey who famously served with Grossdeutschland and his story can be found online. Thanks for the recommendation, I will had "Gulag" to my list.
German war memoirs are awesome, IF you look at a man like Otto Carius and his memories of WW2, he's totally unapologetic. In docudramas like Bridge Too Far and Longest Day, you find a balanced picture of how they conducted themselves . On the other hand, so much of German War Fiction (written AND filmed) is utterly unwatchable and unreadable==so much self pity and defeatism even when they are winning the war (Das Boot; Stalingrad(the start, at least), the novel Betrayed Skies); you look at these whining, handwringing, demoralized waifs and you wonder how the HELL they took over nearly half of Europe. And of course, NOBODY liked or supported "Dolph", and in these movies they absolutely must NEVER be shown to be winning. Now, I understand that it's political 'poison' to show Germans being victorious or in high spirits or praising the Nazis and whatnot, but still, it flies in the face or 'real reality'.
Well sometimes in the popcorn cinema entertainment world, SS officers are portrayed like the ridiculous version that Malcolm Mc Dowell makes in "The Passage" from 1979 or the Nazis in Indiana Jones films. Purely for entertainment of course.
Yes, in "the Odessa File" (1974) I clearly saw the difference between a Wehrmacht officer and one of the Waffen SS totenkopf camp officers. But another over the top German officer who really came across as 007 the Prussian-Austrian officer was Major Hecht in the film "Escape to Athena" (1979) Complete with Bond-like fights. Hahaha.@@paulwee1924dus
@@paulwee1924dus The Nazis as buffoons is one of the reasons I can't watch Last Crusade and Raiders anymore. I had to swallow my misgivings and go see Dial of Destiny with my teen but, I shan't be seeing any of those again.
Rommel was a great offensive tactician. But he sucked at strategy, logistics and defensive planning. And that was how the "green" American Army and its undernourished British partner were able to defeat him in Africa and overcome his "Western Wall" at D-Day. His life was colorful to say the least. He was no saint and benefitted directly from his relationship with Hitler... until the July 20 plotters conspired to draft him as their replacement for the Fuhrer should their assassination succeed.
Not sure I understand the concern over the channel name. Infantry Division 65 used a hand grenade for its insignia. The division was recruited in mid 1942 from a broad range of military districts, and though ostensibly a Rhineland formation it was heavily populated with men recruited in former Polish territory. The division served exclusively in Italy and was destroyed at the end of the war. They did not have a reputation for war crimes, though a number of reprisal actions occurred in the division's area of operations. I've seen some viewers mistake the insignia for that of the Dirlewanger unit, but their insignia was two hand grenades crossed.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Oh no, it's more of a general trend; basically there are two groups who use German militaria imagery; people interested in history or nazi sympathizers. Obviously from this video you're in the former category; but there was a concern initially that this might be a video promoting the clean Wehrmacht myth or even worse engaging in outright denial or endorsement of German war crimes. Basically, a lot of WW2 imagery is used regularly to dog-whistle to specific political sympathies. Anytime there's an account that uses something like the Iron Cross for a profile picture I generally proceed with caution.
'Oh no, it's more of a general trend; basically there are two groups who use German militaria imagery; people interested in history or nazi sympathizers' Or elite Ukrainian military brigades like Azov, who don the symbol of 2nd SS Das Reich@@BeansofBringles
@@juliantheapostate8295 Oh you mean the Azov battalion which has documented ties to neo-Nazi and far-right movements? That Azov battalion? The one which has an entire subsection on "Neo-Nazism" on its Wikipedia page? That one? Well they would fit into the second category I listed: "Nazi sympathizers"
2:10 this is arrant nonsense. The 08/15 was an excellent piece of equipmement that served well, albeit late, in WWI. To understand the term, one must know that at the outbreak of the war in 1914, the German Imperial Army had less than 5000 MG08 in service. The whole army, mind you. The MG08 was a heavy piece of equipment, a Maxim type machinegun like the Vickers, weighing 65 kg in all, and thus not very mobile. The Ententete started to use more mobile machineguns like the Lewis gun and the French Hotchkiss, which were much lighter and could be used on the move. The German manufacturer Loewe developed the MG 08/15 out of the MG 08. It was heavier than the Lewis and the Hotchkiss, but much more mobile with a total weight of 18 kg. It took some time ramping up the production, since the Imperial Germany was suffering severely under the blockade. However, in 1917 and 1918, roughly 120.000 MG 08/15 were produced. They became ubiquitous and nothing special. The machinegun, which was so rare at the beginning of the war that some reserve regiments were formed without the one machingun company the regular regiments had, had become a household item. The idiom 08/15 just means "nothing special".
I've seen both definitions in various literature, but nothing concrete as to its origins. For example here (hardly an unimpeachable source, I know): www.thelocal.de/20190523/the-unusual-origins-of-the-german-phrase-0815 From which I quote: "With that machine gun, the MG 08/15, soldiers repeatedly carried out the same routine. That routine quickly got boring and started seeming meaningless to them. Another origin theory is that the 08/15 guns had a low quality due to their mass production in World War I - therefore nowadays, 08/15 can also be used to describe something that is lacking in quality or substance." Also the book Kriegsprache edited by Thomas L. Houlihan ISBN 978-0-578-01849-2 which gives the latter definition. Not trying to appear argumentative, particularly in this case as I'm not a native speaker, but I've had the experience with other topics, of which I'm on much more certain ground, of also being told I'm guilty of slinging "arrant nonsense." (Or words to that effect - I actually had to look up "arrant" thinking the phrase to have been "errant" and being happily surprised to have apparently learned a new word in my own language.) I first heard the phrase something like 25 years ago in a history newsletter where an otherwise very knowledgeable author I admired insisted the phrase was equivalent to "Catch-22" and, in his words, "hurled at anything the German soldier didn't understand." Which I suspect is further from the mark from either of the two definitions given at thelocal.de Which is why I looked it up during the research for the video and, apparently, didn't look far enough to avoid this minor contretemps.
Sven Hassel's books were gold...his characters were brilliant...Tiny, Porta, The Old Man, Julius Hyde, Major Hinka, The Legionnaire etc I don't know where mine went, but I had a good dozen of his books when I was in my late teens...such a blast.
HIGHLY recommend Grossjohan's book. He was an NCO from the old Reichswehr through 1945, then in the Gulag for 4 years. It does seem as sanitized, however, as most of the German ww2 memoirs. Still one of the best of the 20 or so German memoirs I've read.
The clean Wehrmacht myth is very commonly accepted by many especially modern Germans due to laws making it illegal to not say bad things about all this. And I think it’s very unhealthy as a veteran once even lit himself on fire in protest even. but the truth is the waffen SS and them committed the same amount of crimes. The myth comes from the truth that not everyone was a monster or did these things and few live up to the Hollywood tropes completely . But it’s also true many don’t have much of a choice in wars and this one was bloody. Since many people had family in the Whermact they scape goated the waffen SS. This was very convenient for the Cold War and a post war cope. But without it people would have rightfully put up more of a fuss As it is insane what has happened post war
It would be healthy if the world acknowledged the crimes of every country involved and didn’t pick good guy bad guy but let people think hey that’s pretty nasty. But instead we get the Reddit view of the world projected sadly this is ignored or lied about and used souly politically really and it’s disgusting as can be.
It was as far as i understand it just post war to scape goat the SS and the nazi party and probbly encourged by the allies to get testimony etc as well as to lessen the blow for co operation. If you wanted to shoot anyone who did something wrong retroactively youd probbly have to genocide germany at that point. Which is probbly nkt s cknversation you want to have or a moral arhument when you a trialing peoole for doing just that
Excellent analysis that makes no bones about the heinous crimes of the Wehrmacht and the pernicious nature of the “clean” myths. As a young person, I was very much taken in by the Clean Wehrmacht idea, and books like The Myth of the Eastern Front helped open my eyes.
As a retired Air Force enlisted man, I can tell you, with out a doubt the same things happened in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and everywhere else the American soldier landed in the last 50 years...
Unfortunately, Germany was simply destroyed. It was destroyed, not just like country (because lost half territory) but into the soul of the germans. Nowadays, many people there hate their own roots and are available for mass immigration that will soon change the ethnicity of Germany. Many people there don't know the sad destiny of their grandparents. 18 million people lost all in East german territories in Prussia, Poland, Czech Republic, and other countries. Many ethnic germans had to accept assimilation abroad. Where? In France, in Italy, in Hungary or Romania. Like my family. We accepted to be italians just to survive. After 80 years, it is so sad to realize that Germany is ruled by allies. You can see it clearly in all. The mass immigration, the punishment for all nationalists and the crazy establishment in parliament. They are criminals because they are selling Germany to their owners. Try to think on Nordstream, and you can realize what I mean.
I have a small stack of Japanese WW2 books written by or cowritten by Japanese WW2 officers, same problems that you have encountered with German books. While I dont think everything was out and out lies, it all mixed in failed recall, survivor bias, honor, ect. I think you have to wade through it and figure it out. My favorite book is Japanese Destroyer Captain and historians hate that book but less than Fujitas book on Pearl harbor. Keep up the good work.
History is the study of records, not the study of what actually happened. Entertainment is the business of selling entertainment. Neither are about "what actually happened", but about "what will happen when".
And yet - as mentioned in the video - audiences are quite happy relying on entertainment to inform them. This includes in formal educational settings. Not passing judgement or saying how things ought to be - but that is definitely happening.
@@HandGrenadeDivision I remember getting into an argument with a guy online who was saying that the Soviets used 'blocking units' extensively. His source you ask? Why nothing, other than the film 'Enemy At The Gates'.
@@backtoshellac6459 the late John Hill extensively quoted Enemy at the Gates in the Designer's Notes for the Squad Leader boardgame he helped create circa 1977, and I got the sense much of the book helped inform his understanding of combat on the Eastern Front. Which, given the degree of accuracy around the whole sniper's duel thing, is kind of funny to think about now.
The Soviets did make extensive use of blocking detachments. However, they most commonly issued warnings and made the fleeing troops turn around. They rarely had to shoot men@@backtoshellac6459
The good German and 'good war' myth pertaining to the Africa theatre is indeed post war British propaganda. The National Socialist regime enjoyed upward of 90% approval rating and even in the last days of the war there were never reports of Nazi officials, officers or soldiers being killed in cold blood by their own men or by civilians. Contrast this with Soviet Russia where officers were feared thugs and many commissars and soldiers alike met their ends at each others hands. The idea that German soldiers fought for nothing other than 'wrong place, wrong time' is farcical. Everyone knew the threat of Bolshevism and fought gallantly against it. In many cases German soldiers fought to protect their own villages, as they knew the fate of their mothers, sisters, partners, and daughters (even infants) if the Russians overran them. Every German soldier would have regarded themselves as a National Socialist. Even the anti-Hitlerites in the army only opposed him because they saw him as a barrier to winning the war and were at worst national conservatives. Personally I think the phrase 'history is written by the victor' is tired and overused, instead I like to say that we're so glad that the good guys have won every single war in history ever and the bad guys were ontologically evil.
@Lubnut While I suspect we may have a differing view of the Nazis, notwithstanding that statistic of 90% approval, I think it worth pointing out that in _free elections,_ the Nazis never attained more than 37.5% of the vote. While this did make them the biggest party, it remains the case that in excess of 60% of Germans who voted rejected the Nazis. In one election (not even their first), they couldn't even manage _3%_ . I think this fact is very often missed - or overlooked - by those who disparage Germans of that generation! As for the statistic you quote, while I'm no historian, or even particularly invested, politically, and am not familiar with that figure, I'm not at all suggesting it's 'made up'; but I would say, to what degree can you trust a number like that, if this was an accounting done _during_ the war, when people had a gun at their head? Again, I feel like this is something that might not be entirely grasped by people living in non - Axis countries, especially when _they_ have the benefit of hindsight. I do accept though that in the early days of the war, Hitler did enjoy an enormous groundswell of popularity, but this has to be remembered in the context of a country which had been humiliated at Versailles and brought to its knees, economically, and against the background of the Weimar Republic, a time and place that Liberals look back on romantically, but which was in fact an incredibly licentious and decadent time - and _not_ in a good way. Think modern day San Francisco, or Portland, perhaps! Of course, while not everyone could conceive of the systematic, mechanised slaughter that came later [EDIT: I'm referring to the camps!], I don't think anyone could deny the abuses taking place against those deemed 'undesireables', most particularly the Jews; but while I suspect an uncomfortably large number were thinking "Yeah, I never did much care for 'that lot' - they've brought it on themselves, they have", there was an equal or greater amount who, at worst, were thinking "Don't make waves, don't get their eye; I feel bad for the Jews, but at the end of the day, better them than me!" which might not be very edifying, from a moral point of view, but again, it's a lot easier to be brave and high - minded in a free country! How many of us disparage those who failed to take up arms against the likes of Idi Amin, off the top of my head, or the fanatics who ran ISIS, or Kim Jong Un?! So why is Germany a special case?! And finally, I agree with you, a lot of Germans, not unreasonably, saw the Bolsheviks as the worse 'Devil'! As bad as the Western Allies were, rendering people to lard (sound familiar?!) in the basements of Hamburg, Berlin and Dresden (to name but 3), their governments didn't sanction rape gangs to go around raping and sodomizing women and children to death, not to mention that it would be 40 years or more before much of the country (and much of Europe) were able to throw off the Bolshevik yoke...
OK, my comment is a bit overlong, but you could simply just 'not - read it', without being compelled to _tell me_ you're not reading it; that's just plain ignorance, especially coming from someone who's hardly a model of concision himself! So, what is it? You not prepared to engage in debate with someone who's opinion you believe to be at odds with yours? Is that because you're too much of a moral coward, or simply that you feel intellectually incapable? The ironic part is, it was hardly even a question of debate; if you'd read past the first paragraph or so, you'd have seen that most of what I wrote was agreeing with you! Of course, I might be assuming too much; since you can write, you can obviously _read;_ but maybe you just lack the attention span for anything you haven't written yourself! I'll just give you a tip for the future, since it seems like no~one took the trouble to teach you the right way of being in polite society -- "If you can't say anything nice... Say nothing at all!"
@@richiehoyt8487 Use paragraph breaks when changing a thought! A mantra I formulated over a period of 40 years or so is "Everything one sees/reads/hears in the mass media about Germany and WWII, the exact opposite is much closer to the truth".
@@BasementEngineer Uh, yeah... 😔 You might have a point there; with regard to my writing style, I mean. As to the second, well, if not quite the exact opposite, certainly with enough salt to get the croaker concerned about your blood pressure, anyway! [EDIT: I dunno if other people can see it, but from where I am, Basement Engineers comment doesn't seem to be showing up in the thread. For the record, he (I think) is essentially saying I need to open new paragraphs more when I change my line of thought; and whatever you come across in the mass media regarding Germany vis - á - viz WWII, you probably best ought to just assume the opposite...]
One, minor, quibble does the fact that some German officers (such as Manstein) were able to develop part of the current Western, and undoubtedly Soviet, narrative of the Conflict *really* disprove the old adage that it is the Winners the write the history books? Especially when the officers whose novels became so ubiquitous in the Western consciousness because they were either actively promoted by the contemporary powers, as was the Case with Manstein’s memoirs because it spawned the Clean Wehrmacht Myth which was politically convenient for the Western nations at the time, or because they pandered to the assumptions and values of the victors? Seems to me that these officers, for better or for worse, abandoned their fellow losers in order to become victors, at least after the fact, via the pen with which they wrote.
reddit tries so hard to disprove the fact that ''victors write history'' and they think that some generals being seen as anti nazi noble warriors instead of caricaturised losers is enough proof
This is a great video. There are a lot of reasons why Americans were sympathetic toward the "good German character" of the guilty populace of WWII Germany. These included the large number of Americans of German descent in the USA, the need for German technology and intelligence practices to stay ahead of the Soviet Union, and finally, the Anglo-American respect of the German Army as a warfighting force. The egalitarian US Army in particular was not fond of a Wehrmacht Officer Corps made up of upper class Prussians. They had the same issue with British Army officers. So turning them into buffoons for American audiences was an easy transition. Ironically, the kind of middle-class/working class officer corps America prided itself on was most notably found in the Waffen SS, not the Wehrmacht. The NAZI German military was made up of a generation of young people raised after WWI, many without their fathers (who died in WWI), and were fully immersed, educated, and propagandized by the Nazi Reich Regime. They knew nothing else except dim memories of the poverty and weakness of Weimar. They were not innocent but more akin to Pol Pot's brainwashed Khmer Rouge than to the average American or British draftee. Hitler was a common soldier in WWI and an honored war veteran himself. Even as Fuhrer, he wore the uniform and ribbons of the common soldier, not the officer corps. This endeared him to many of those "good German soldiers" of popular culture. Most of the youngest of the soldiers worshipped him as a near Messiah and thus served him until the bitter end. In fact, the Prussian upper class offers were the ONLY people who tried the end Hitler's regime and made up the bulk of the July 20 plotters. Rommel was not in this class and was addicted to the attention he received for his battlefield exploits (read his WWI memoir, Infantry Attacks). He was not the anti-NAZI depicted in popular media. He loved being a soldier, loved the attention of his successes, and benefitted directly from Hitler's respect for him as a tactician. He was implicated only because it was discovered that some of the plotters thought the popular general would make a good replacement for the Fuhrer. I am so glad to find this video. Seems even the modern German people want to atone for their sins... but popular American culture is stuck with the "Good German" stereotype.
11:27 Not sure why The Iron Major is listed as a "good German" but in the Sgt. Rock (from DC Comics) comics, he was Rock's arch enemy and certainly a 'Nazi soldier'. Interestingly, while we're talking about DC Comics, I remember seeing an issue of a comic called I think "Blitzkrieg" in the 1980's, which was war stories seen from the German side. In that same period, British comics started telling stories of fictional German soldier heroes. In these stories, the protagonists were white washed by having relatives opposing the regime, or being "noble soldiers", "above the regime they fought for", or "fighting for their country, not the regime."
Blitzkrieg was from the 1970s, I have the premiere issue somewhere in my files, the entire run was five issues. It was wholly unremarkable and done in typical DC comics style with an emphasis on action-adventure, and pretty much no real understanding of the culture of the German Army. The three main characters were typical archetypes; a large brooding bully of the old hand type and of course "true believer", a bookish bespectacled older man, and the fair-haired gentle hero. It could have had legs but if the first issue was any indication, the stories were nothing out of the ordinary. The story began with the trio complaining about their lot in life - hungry, tired - and a warning that a "Luger bullet in your skull" was the likely result of questioning authority. The inference being there was no rule of law, something the actual courts-martial rate in German units proves false. A surprise raid by American paratroopers springs them into action, and our infantryman heroes are suddenly transformed into demolition engineers, mining a small bridge and blowing up the Americans that had taken it. The fair haired hero grapples with a dying lieutenant that falls into the water and a German is shocked to find photos in a dead man's wallet making him a 'man, just like me.' The story ended, IIRC, with the American paratroops all dead and the reveal that it was D-Day in Normandy. "The adventure continues." I seem to recall a different story with the same characters set in the Russian winter.
I may have been thinking a bit too much of Enemy Ace, drawn in the same Joe Kubert iron-jawed style, and conflated the two. My dim memories of the Iron Major was that he never seemed to die despite being locked in hand to hand combat with Rock, who also naturally survived, any time he appeared and thus must have had *some* redeeming qualities in order to be retained. Plus, to be honest, I just liked the picture. :-)
You correctly identify the handling of jewish people by the Germans but completely ignore the plight of the millions of Slavic people who were brutalized?!? WTH
You correctly identify that I completely ignored the plight of the millions of Slavic people who were brutalized but completely ignore my refusal to discuss Guy Sajer?!? WTH
@@HandGrenadeDivision Your use of sarcasm is bizarre - as is your refusal to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht against Slav civilians.
What would you have liked to hear about it, which would have placed it in the context of the video? Western audiences, by which I mean the English speaking countries I suppose, haven't shown much appetite for that topic, and if they did, I can't imagine many film-makers in the west being all too interested in the subject either. The video was meant as a quick examination of some prominent themes in fictional portrayals of the German Army and how those portrayals were influenced by the historiographical land scape of the times they were drafted - again, with reference to the west. If you feel that topic is significantly impacted by the absence of a discussion about films on a subject that no one within these parameters seem to have been interested in, I'm not seeing why.
This is why I really hate the age old adage that 'History is written by the Victors'. Maybe, in ancient times, when record keeping was not as good, and events WERE commonly twisted by those who were victorious, but the same does not apply in modern times, when accounts are relentlessly pursued regardless of the sides, and you'll always find somebody speaking up for them.
then why is our post war world is seen as ''good ending'' that would have been a hellscape in the event of a german victory? just because the dominant powers occasionally romanticize their enemy doesnt mean that the history is not written by the victors.
@@abbcc5996 The whole concept of “what aboutism” is not something extensively covered by historians. The History is History for a reason, because it happened, and we with context know what our world is like after an allied victory. Did an Axis victory happen? Do we truly know what the world would be like after such an event, good or bad? It’s equally as naive for you to think that you’d know, because you simply don’t. All we know is that the Axis entered this war with the mindset that they’d be able to conquer large swathes of land as if they were living in antiquity, and failed. And now we live in the present, a time where you can freely speak about such topics on forums such as here.
I found them funny as a 13/14 year old (some had a black bod in them that the others just said he had engine oil or mud on his face etc) or the one that was a bit like Kelly's heroes.
I read about 8-10 Sven Hassell books in my 20's and the early ones are more than just cartoonist fiction. His first, Legion Of The Damned, is an incredible and horrific book which seems at least 80% his true experience. Monte Cassino is fiction (Hassell was in Russia at the time) but is very entertaining while staying true to the actual events of the real battle.
I was introduced to the author on a trip to England in 1983. Oddly the characters used English vernacular, like, 'bloke' and 'bloody'. Frankly AH☠️ made his greatest MISTAKE when he didn't "stop" at Dunkirk. The Brits LOVED the Krauts 😉
@@cuchidesoto2686 exactly! A friend of mine, who was also a history nerd, kind of laughed when I told him I loved Sven Hassell. So I gave him Legion Of The Damned and said just read the first chapter. He ended up reading almost all of Sven's books 😄
Around forty years ago I discovered the Sven Hassel series of novels and thoroughly enjoyed them. I believe the first in the series, 'Legion of the Damned' was semi-autobiographical, based on the author's own experiences in a penal battalion.
Most human beings perceive history through an emotional lens. And that's OK. It's the historian's job, not the novelist or filmmaker, to set the record straight. However, historians are human too so truth sometimes becomes subjective. Great video.
In Alan Bullock's 'Hitler: A Study in Tyranny', the author comments on the poetic nature of how it was the Army that shot down the 1923 Putsch, and it was again the Army that would assist the Nazis rise to power in 1933, and later pledge their total subservience to the party in 1934. Additionally, he recognises, as a man who lived during that time and an academic at that, how the history we know is a result of the widespread 'national feeling' - a term he uses often - of the people, of frustrations of the past, and the nervous excitement for the future, which included but weren't limited to reversing the territorial and military humiliations of the last war - a feeling so widespread that it wasn't limited by political affiliation. The Nazis reached their height of popularity when they did exactly that, marching troops into the Rhineland and doing away with all notion of adhering to the Treaty of Versailles and Compiegne. It was a war that the people wanted, the people fought, the people lost, and which became skewed in public perception with hindsight and confirmation bias when the people sobered up. We must also remember that of the millions of men who became part of the revived Wehrmacht, many were former SA, and many had come from the Hitler Youth, too, they were very much supportive of the regime. It's also very easy for us to pass judgement, and I did often in the past, but Bullock's work showed me otherwise and gives me a very visceral feeling that quite simply, 'you had to be there', and I have no illusion that I would resist or know better had I been a German alive during that time. I fully believe that if were that the case, that I, too would be one of those many who supported the regime and the war. I think that reflecting on this topic is a poignant lesson in how very human war, atrocity, and the task of justifying your actions and assigning blame is. Brilliant video, mate, I'm glad that of all people to do it, it was someone like you, with books and articles on hand to cite and suggest, rather than someone like me who can name only a couple from which my understanding stems. You've more than earned me as a subscriber.
There are some exceptions to how germans generally write about the war. Most notable being the memoirs of Hans von Luck titled "panzer commander" tho i wouldn't count that as a strictly military view since it talks a lot about civilian and civilian life he encountered during the war and both post and pre-war period from his eyes including the POW experience in the USSR. I would say that talking about actual combat is the minority as much as just being a human story about his life journey trough the war. It openly talks and i think sheds some light on how and why Rommel was idealized during and post war as he was brought up as an idol almost to young officers pre-war (Hans being one of them) and that might be reflected in a lot of writing. Another is showing a bit of a different side to both the african campaign and russian then is usually written about. Makes more then a few passing mentions of corruption within the german military but also doesn't just write off soviets as "eastern savages" as i've seen a lot of german sources do(and western who want to pass all the war crimes against german women and civilians onto soviets even when them doing most of it is questionable in recent years ). Hans seems to actually had a great deal of respect for the Russian culture even before the war and he recounts that he was treated fairly when he was captured aside from some beating by some of the soviet soldiers which was broken up as soon as a soviet officers saw it.
I noticed in the image for this video the "Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer is included. I had always assumed it was an accurate portrayal of of GD veteran, could anyone tell me if this is actually the case, as it is an extremely powerful and moving book. I believed the same about, Lothar Gunther Buchheim,s "Das Boot", I would add that in my personal opinion the 1981 Wolfgang Petersen series of the same name was also very powerful and emotive. Unbiased and honest opinions in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
It may be accurate to the author's perceptions, but anyone using it as a "bible" for understanding the experiences of the GD should probably reconsider, given the many errors of either fact, memory or translation. There is some other discussion in this comment section, and it seems public acceptance of the book as a legitimate memoir rather than a work of fiction has been steadily growing. For a riveting story, it has entertained thousands if not millions. For an "accurate" account, there are probably better books that would do more to inform. Das Boot does indeed have the ring of truth to it but that's because it was written by a war correspondent/propagandist who not only lived the experience himself but was also trained in how to tell a good story.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Firstly thank you for a very interesting video it was excellent work, I was aware of some of the discrepancies in Sajers book and I am relieved to know that it is a legitimate personal memoir, maybe not historically accurate but viscerally it is unbeatable in my opinion. And as for "Das Boot" I own a copy of the book (U-Boat War) translated by Alfred A Knopf, 1978., I am not sure if you are familiar with it but In Petersens version of "Das Boot" the scenes when U96 encounters another U boat in a storm, is based on an actual event recorded in the book whilst Buchheim was aboard the real U96.
I was struck by the vulgar language of the sailors in Bucheim's book which had a ring of authenticity about it and would not have been included in anything published in the 1940s. Dimly remembered now but I seem to recall a sailor's story of being berated by his father, with the usual "after all I spent on raising you" complaint, and the sailor pulling a used prophylactic from his pocket, slapping it on the table, and saying "you can have your investment back." My copy still resides somewhere on my shelves but it's been awhile since I read it.
I completely agree that many, even the best films are not exactly good from a information standpoint. But I also feel that certain depictions in some films do have a place, my favorite German war Films are Stalingrad and Downfall. Stalingrad does fall into the trap of making viewers sympathetic to the germans, but it also importantly does showcase the many flaws in fascism. I also think Downfall is one of the few films I wouldn't criticize for the reasons mentioned in this video, the movie was meant to be sympathetic to show that anyone, and that means anyone can be a horrible person, or a monster as they say. It's one of the few that is self aware enough of this problem with WW2 Germans in entertainment.
“Under international law, which was murky at that time…they may not have technically been guilty of a war crime at that time.” So…they were supposed to know what would be called “war crimes” at a future date? As to the shooting of “civilians,” were they just random civilians? Or non-uniformed partisans?
There wasn’t an international law yet apart from two conventions, particularly about other combatants. The German army procedure for dealing with partizans was just kill everybody they could grab in an area, assuming everybody who stayed was either implicit or OK with it. This is exactly what Ukrainian army does today by the way.
TBF at least the Erwin Rommel thing was the most Understandable Myth in there, unlike say the Clean Wehrmact one or other Worse Myths, People back then needed basically a Hero to inspire them and the Myth of Rommel being this Noble Hero who defied the Nazis was appealing to Germans, Because lets face it if anyone was put in the same position you would probably do the same, In a time when the Crimes of Monsters are Excused, people need a Hero to look up on even if its Never Real in the 1st Place.
@@forickgrimaldus8301nonsensical. As we can see from the numerous yet now declared illegal inquiries in 2022 most the claims about dirty Wehrmacht were lies. They really were clean and it became a political tool to delegitimize their service. Please keep up to date on the current information meta
I've read a lot of soldiers diaries and stories of World War II and most of them have been Germans on the Eastern front. There's a huge variety of angles and a huge variety in writing talent but some of them have been very good. I'm currently reading The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer and it's been really good. For the most part the officers aren't bloodthirsty and stupid. I guess it doesn't fit into that described pattern.
Grossjohan's "recipe" was for fiction, while the books you are reading are non-fiction. Grossjohan complained that fiction writers were purposefully not describing history as it was, while the memoirs you are reading were designed to do the opposite - though to be fair Grossjohan also complained that memoirists were often self-serving and untruthful, or at the least evasive.
@@HandGrenadeDivision the main protagonist in this story is a coward and makes it very clear that he's a coward. He's very young in this story and it's all really good except for the parts that deal with his attraction to a German girl named Paula. He is ridiculous and his whole relationship with her is cloying and over flowery and it makes me remember that he's a teenager. It's available as an audiobook on TH-cam for free. It is really good and very gritty.
I have a dog-eared copy of Sajer (that's actually my copy in the thumbnail for this video). I think I picked it up in an airport in the 1990s. I really should read through it again sometime. You may have found the perfect antidote to claims it is fiction - it doesn't fit Grossjohan's recipe!
@@Zenedon I can't remember if it contains fiction. It rings true for the most part. A lot of the diary form books after World War II were complete propaganda or exaggerations and the books by the German generals were mostly lies to make themselves look more competent. I sometimes forget that even a book as believable as All quiet on the Western Front is a work of fiction. An honest work of fiction rather than a nonfiction / fiction hybrid which so many of these other " true rememberances" are. World War II doesn't have that great fiction novel like "All Quiet..." At least not one with the popularity that that book has.
When are the books and movies about Red Army atrocities going to come out? The Red Army, Bolshevik secret police, early KGB, etc have a rich history of war crimes stemming from 1917-1958. Yet we rarely ever hear about the Gulags, purges, deportation of many millions, ethnic cleansing, etc. Why is that? Oh right, because the were part of the Allied coalition.
As a point of order, there was only one Gulag....but it's a valid question. The answer is simple. When someone with skin in the game feels they can make money off of them. Same as any other kind of movie.
Your depiction completely lacks the "why would the germans be naive and fight for Germany despite of these terrible crimes" and just assumes everyone was a retard, look at the years before the war, the terrible defeat after the first world war, the failing econony, the blame being shifted on the politians and the jews. Everyone was fed up with the state of the country and they willingly fought for Hitler and his compatriots after the years of hardship, they needed a figure like him and they welcomed him when he finally had the power to change things. The quick victories in 1939 and 1940 rolled in and given the same precinct of steady victoriesn anyone would join the army and help the cause. After all what would you do? Join some resistance and risk death? Flee the country? Where to? Try to not die on the front and dodge the warcrimes and reprisals? Impossible. Afterwards everyone was smarter and everyone kept talking about how they were in some kind of resistance, how they were a medic or how they didnt fight at all (highly unlikely)
You only have to say ‘what’s the film? Demarcation’ And anyone who has ever seen it knows immediately it’s Cross of Iron. Another example is ‘Repeat please’ from Battle of Britain. Some films have these spoken moments that just stick in your head even though the words themselves aren’t obviously linked to the subject in the way quoting ‘use the force Luke’ or ‘you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off’ are.
About the oath part, Robert Citino, in his "Why Did the German Army Fight to the End?" lecture points out that a lot of Heer officers also made oaths to uphold the Weimar Constitution but didn't follow that one so it is probably not the best excuse.
As a soldier, being involved in a war of your own country's politicians doing, your responsibility is to your men. There are really no politics in the 'trenches', only a sense of duty to yourself and your unit. Those of us who served can all agree that General Officers are politicians, for the most part. The self pity needs to stop. I would like to see a militarily strong Germany that participates in the world emergencies. This will never happen if we continue to blame Germany and Germans for something that their 19-century born leaders got them into. History is not always kind in retrospect. It's time to move on.
Nah, Wehrmacht soldiers were given criminal orders to dispense any and all means against Jews and Slavs and untermenschen, and they did it willingly. This false shithood of the Wehrmacht being apolitical soldiers needs to be extinguished, as they are not apolitical, but is the primary genocidal right arm of the Nazi Regime, with the SS and the NSDAP being its left.
I may be mistaken and correct me if I’m wrong, I think Dr. Robert Citino has a great lecture on something like this. About how the Wehrmacht definitely knew what they were doing. They weren’t clueless patriots. They knew exactly what was happening and they didn’t do anything about it and even perpetrated the horrible things Hi*ler wanted. If anyone can find the lecture please let me know the title. It was here on TH-cam. Edit: Dr* Robert Citino
And nowadays the west still downplays real living nazism in Ukraine and how neo nazi Ukrainian millitary units are really no different in function to waffen SS in ww2. The whole reason that embarrassment happened in the canadian parliment was because zelenskyy was visiting and they cheered the nazi veteran because at least he was "killing Russians" back in the day. The fact the Ukrainian nazi had escaped to canada after ww2 goes into another rabbit whole of how post ww2 the allies recruited nazis of all different nationalities for millitary, convert intelligence and scientific research value. It didnt matter if these individuals were guilty of war crimes or members of notorious units. Thier value against the allies new enemy the soviet union was prioritized over justice. The allies never really cared about war crimes or discrimination and they committed both abeit not so prolifically or proudly as the axis.
I was afraid I might be rambling toward the end, so I don't think you're dumb. There was definitely no major conclusion at the end, just that after reviewing the timeline of how history and fiction have interacted over the years, there is probably no real definitive work of fiction that both entertains and fully captures the experience of the German Army in the Second World War. It would be hard to do that, I think. There is no one single film that captures, for example, US experience in Vietnam, though there are several good movies that capture part of it. Arguably "Band of Brothers" is the gold standard for US experiences in the European theatre of World War II, but they had ten hour-long episodes to try and do that. Mostly though, I think my message has been "it's complicated" which is why it would be difficult to expect film goers - and modern audiences - to be able to come to terms with it in a way that truly reflects the times. Or something.
Any kind of fictional works tends to do this, idk about BoB doe haven't watched it... how about portrayal of wars in any war sim games? tactical or strategic stuff that might be fun -also should prolly pin this lol-@@HandGrenadeDivision
I'm waiting for your follow up video about the atrocities committed by the military of the other nations in WWII as well as other wars. Some German armed forces were noted for civil behavior such as the Kriesmarine.
I checked with the ops staff and on review of the general orders we publish weekly here at Hand Grenade Division HQ, it would appear no such plans are in the works. For myself I can't really confess to any great interest in what-about-ism. From what I can tell the Canadians committed exactly one atrocity, when they burned down the town of Friesoythe in northern Germany after the popular CO of Hamilton's Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders was killed by a sniper. Thinking he was done in by a civilian, the always entertaining General Vokes ordered a reprisal. Hmm, now that I say it out loud, maybe that would make for a good video. Certainly the circumstances that led him to command the 4th Armoured Division are noteworthy.
The one thing we as historians can always count on: a complete lack of accuracy on the part of Hollywood...
absolutely true. especially most war movies. The Bridge on the River Kwai was based on a true story, but the colonel in the story did EVERYTHING in reality to sabotage the bridge building not the deluded collaborator in movie. when the movie premiered it was seen by the widow of the colonel who was disgusted by the movie and the portrayal by Guinness.
One of my History professors in college said back in 1982 that Hollywood couldn’t help but fiddle with the facts.
He maintained the most accurate film was Zulu (1964).
@@flyingwombat59 Even though it wasn't. Less than 25% of the men were actually welsh.
There was also no rivalry as to who would command the station. It's an entertaining movie, but as always, don't rely on it to teach accurate history.
Zulu is a great film but not really that accurate@@flyingwombat59
The most accurate portrayal of Wehrmacht uniform can be seen in the German anti war film „0815“. At first I was a little confused as to why the soldiers mostly ran around with very non-militaristic, plain white uniforms only to find out that during the time the movie was set (1939) soldiers on barrack duty and training often didn’t wear their field grey uniforms, instead they wore cheap uniforms without any dye, which made them look like bakers
The white drill uniforms were used during the war as well - it was cheaper than wearing out the good wool uniforms for routine training.
Viiiierbeiiin! Viiiierbeiiin! One of my favorite scenes is them acting like they are looking for Vierbein.
IN GERMANY WE SAID 'DRILLICH' UNIFORM.
@@olafschmeling9807 Das weiß ich, dass die so heißt. Ich nenn sie lieber informal "Bäckeranzug"
american garrison soldiers were still wearing brodies back then
This is probably the best ww2 related youtube channel . Great editing and researching.
Hand Grenade Division had been gone for a long time, and I hadn’t wanted to get my hopes up that he was back when he posted last week. But with 3 videos dropping…Welcome back!! 🎉
The movement of large numbers of ethnic Germans after WW2 was agreed by all of the Allies. It wasn’t just the Soviets idea.
Also the Soviets weren’t the only ones committing crimes against ethnic Germans as they were forced out of some areas either.
Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and others were all involved.
No many of the Germans were not innocent obviously. But that doesn’t mean crimes and mistreatment including murder, rape and torture committed by non Germans were ok.
You make a good point, I was trying too hard to be "tidy" in my language and inadvertently laid the responsibility for the expulsions solely at the Soviets' feet - you are correct that is not at all accurate. Thanks for pointing it out. Agree with your other points as well.
Operation Keelhaul@@HandGrenadeDivision
You fall squarely into German as victims category. First, mass expulsions of civilian non-Jewish populations was employed by Germany at the outset of WWII already in autumn of 1939. Expulsion of Germans was seen as kind of historical justice and was not illegal or a crime by the standards of 1945. Flight of German population was initiated by German authorities in 1944, correctly assuming advancing Red Army is set on vengeance for Wermacht atrocities in the Soviet Union. Finally, subsequent expulsions were carried out in the absence of civil administration and in many places (western Ukraine, Baltics, Poland) in the state of civil war directed against imposition of communist regimes. Needless to say, defenseless German population was an easy target with little sympathy from former victims traumatized by the war and themselves living in fear of new order. We may also keep in mind that fate of Germans was not unique, as while Germans were removed, Poles were evicted from their ancestral lands and forcibly resettled to territories reclaimed from Germany. All that was happening with the explicit blessing of the Allies.
@@pawelpap9The Russians inflicted genocide on the Poles, and murdered and raped German civilians, while their own people and returned Russian POWs and veterans were thrown into the Gulags. The NKVD got to project their own guilt for the Holodomor and such on Germany at the Neuremburg trials. The USSRs hypocrisy is astounding.
"Movement" is just a nice euphemism for internationally sanctioned ethnic cleansing, and it wasnt just against the Germans but to appease the victors apetires namley Stalins , and the west was neck deep in it.
The stereotypical German officer with a monocle and leather gloves is very hip in war films. But there were also many officers, non-commissioned officers and men who were excellent soldiers without committing war crimes.
Paul agrees, "In the light we can not see" the 2023 new Netflix war-drame series we see the Germans and especially "Von Rumpel" (played by German actor Lars Eidinger) in exactly the same role as in the BBC series "SS-GB" ( 2017) Unintentionally, the German soldiers came out as "Allo Allo Germans" in both series.
Hard to believe certain claims about war crimes when such claims state physical impossibilities such as German atomic weapons or alleged victims turning up alive and well decades later.
^ wehraboo cope
There is not actively engaging, and being willingly blind.
While it is true only a small (Compared to overall forces) number committed what would be considered war crimes or crimes against humanity, everyone in the military was fully aware of stuff like retaliatory mass executions. Many of these were intentionally done in public, and the bodies could be left out for days as an ongoing warning.
In the memoirs of one soldier, a panzer commander I believe, he comments about repeatedly seeing the execution of groups of "terrorists" as he called them. He claims to rationalize his support of Germany by seeing children in these groups and thinking this was proof bolshevists were monsters for teaching even their children to kill. Never "We just killed whoever we got our hands on".
In the end he admits this was an unrealistic view. But also maintains that he and the men with him are innocent because they didn't personally pull the trigger during these events. Only supported the people who did.
@@hello-rq8kf I hope they notice you
The biggest regret of most German and Japanese WW2 veterans was that they lost.
@@asmodeus0454 I am one, and I disagree. Most Vietnam veterans’ biggest regret is that they were sent there in the first place, win or lose. Many of us, including me, do regret that we lost. However, unlike the Axis veterans of WW2, at least we were not trying to dominate the world 🌎.
@@Outlier999 dominate the world🤡🤡
If they were still around and would see what has become of their culture and, at least the German vets, would be able to see what has become of their inner cities: who can blame them? It´s of little consolation that the cities of the victors look very much the same these days.
Not just the germans who regret Hitlers loss today
@@fraskf6765 It was a lot different, and look who we were competing with. Dominant and dominating are not always the same.
The White House did attempt to defend itself from criticism about the Bitburg visit by emphasizing that most of the SS men buried there were 17/18 drafted at the end of the war not guys who had been camp personell. The visit also had a Cold War element to it. To show the strength of US-West German relations in NATO. The truth is White House officials didn't know at first who was buried there and only later did they find out. Backtracking was close to impossible once the visit had been announced.
I've always be amazed how classic hollywood ww2 films are so innacurate. Characters having contemporary behaviours and ethics, anachronistic haircuts, terrible uniforms (even allied ones), american cold war vehicles as german ones, bad shape old actors, very little regard to war crimes...
Some are better than the run of the mill. The Best Years of Our Lives, The Men, Twelve O'clock High for instance.
The uniforms drive me crazy. Hollywood for some reason decided that the German army wore grey uniforms. No idea why. It takes minutes to discover their uniforms were green.
@@Wolf-hh4rvThe iconic Grey uniform was a thing during the early war invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the low countries, and France. It wasn't until after the invasion of France the Grey uniform was done away with for green and tan ones of.
Too tanned, too tall, uniforms too clean, wrong vehicles.
@@Wolf-hh4rv A lot of the movies were in black and white. So they basically set a precedent for future movies.
Plus its not all bad, movies are art not documentaries. dressing actors in a certain way is important for the storytelling.
Thanks for this video, I made one similar to this but not as in depth. Post war German historiography in the Cold War has been a big interest to me. Please keep uploading again!
Thanks for mentioning your channel, I've just subscribed. Your video is quite good and I hope to find time to review more of your offerings in the coming days.
I have recently tracked down four novels portraying the German Luftwaffe during WW2, all written by German authors.
'The Falling Leaf' (1956) by Gerd Gaiser. It was printed in English in hardback under that title but the 1960 English paperback edition was titled 'The Last Squadron'. The novel portrays a FW-190 fighter squadron based on the Danish coast in mid-1943. Gaiser served in the Luftwaffe during WW2 as a staff officer but also possibly flew on operations.
'The Sky Ablaze' (1958) by Victor Schuller. Originally published in Germany under the title 'With Falling Oak Leaves & Swords, the World Below'. This novel is about a young pilot who joins a Ju-88 bomber unit in Sicily during the siege of Malta in 1942 but he later transfers to a fighter unit. He sees action over Stalingrad in early 1943 and later fights against the US daylight bomber offensive over Germany in 1944-45. I can't find any info on the author's background.
'He Flew By My Side' (1957) by Erwin Morzfeld. Novel about a Ju-88 torpedo-bomber unit operating over the North Sea. The central characters are two young pilots who, despite their contrasting personalities, become close friends. The author was a Ju-88 pilot during WW2 who was shot down and captured, spending the remainder of the war in a POW camp in Britain.
'Betrayed Skies' (1980) by Rudolf Braunburg. Novel about an FW-190 fighter unit based in Poland during the final months of WW2. The author flew with the Luftwaffe during WW2.
I expected Guy Sajer's "The Forgotten Soldier" to be included, but maybe the maker considered him not fully German as he was raised in France with parents from both France and Germany. Yet Sajer is clearly someone who lost a war and wrote about it. Sajer served with the Gross Deutschland division from 1943 to the end of the war when he was captured by British soldiers, but spent most of his service on the Russian front. His memoir makes no mention of his unit involved in any attacks on Jews or civilians, except for partisans on the Russian front. Whether this was selective editing on his part or the reality of his small unit is hard to to know. Sajer's memoir has been accused of being inaccurate in many aspects and several historians have accused him of not even being in the war or at least in the GD division. And others defend his lapses as those of an older man trying to recall his teenager years caught up in a world in flames.
Sajer's book is indeed controversial and I'm aware of the debates around him. I first read about the book in the 1990s and at the very least, the book suffers from terrible translation from French to German to English. Many of the details simply aren't correct but it seems historical consensus is swinging toward the book having actually been written by a veteran named Guy Mouminoux. I did include a picture of the book in the thumbnail thinking myself clever, but no one has commented on it yet...you're the first.
Read the book sometime in the 70's and was enthralled. I've heard both sides in regard to the controversial aspect of it and lean towards Sajer being truthful. I remember reading somewhere his pal, Hals immigrating to the U.S. and getting involved in real estate....
I’m glad you brought it up. I enjoy it as an emotional tale at least. I have tended to give it a more critical look when I listened to it a second time.
I really enjoyed this book , I imagine though much of it was fiction to join the story together.
Currently reading this as well. True or not the book is damn good. Part of me is skeptical that all these interactions could be remembered with such detail. A journal that big in your coat could stop a bullet. lol
Ever notice how every single German soldier in WW2 media who is a higher rank than a private* has an iron cross? They treat it like a rank identifier where the higher the rank the higher the grade of Iron Cross.
*Military media about any nation tend to not acknowledge the existence of corporals and act like solders go straight from private to sergeant. But that is a topic for another time
Thing is corporals in many countries are just glorified privates. Ie they have some authority but overall they do everything else that a private does with no extra benefits. Actually a bit more hassle since they have to command a couple of privates while lacking any privilege that comes from an NCO rank. Its not always the case but its common. Often corporals are not even rated as NCOs.
@florinivan6907 has it exactly right. For what it is worth, the topics or rank and medal distribution in the German Army are discussed elsewhere on my channel. But @florinivan6907 describes nicely what a "corporal" was in the Wehrmacht-Heer, basically a pay raise, one which did not entitle the bearer to adopt the silver and green bayonet knot of a non-commissioned officer.
Some estimates have about 1 in 4 German soldiers awarded the EK2 (Iron Cross 2nd Class). I'd push back on the suggestion it was a "rank identifier" or at least the implication it was intended to be so. The ability of high ranking officers to collect the higher grades of the Iron Cross series came from its dual purpose of rewarding frontline bravery as well as military merit. So you could get any grade of the Iron Cross as a reward for the success of your unit and the men you were leading.
History is very complex and thus a detailed analysis is always required.
Something the media, Hollywood and school teachers don’t explain.
…sometimes for nefarious reasons, for their own benefits.
Nice video. The 1993 films "Stalingrad" and the Russian "Stalingrad" (2013 version) both featured actor Thomas Kretschmann as the German officer who had to fight in the rubble. Very good actor who has already portrayed a Nazi officer 30 times in war films, "Indiana Jones and the dial of desttiny " film and drama films. Yes The modern-day Wolfgang Preiss.
Indeed, and historical characters from Ernst Remer to Hermann Fegelein.
An intelligent, nuanced essay - good work!
Mitchell and Webb presented the most accurate historical summary of all.
"Hans- are we the baddies?"
Great sketch it’s on TH-cam along with the ones about faking the moon landings etc 👍
Oh and Armstrong and Millers RAF pilots 😃 lol
Unaccurate uniforms though.
You needn't go back to WWII. Is there one single globally known Vietnam war movie that was made by the victors? "History is written by the victors" is too simple. History has always been told, and most of all by those who had the loudest voice. That role can even change over time.
Exactly. By media coverage of the Vietnam War, one may assume that USA won.
On the contrary, the hysterical coverage of the Tet offensive was far more defeatist than the reality. The Viet Cong were a spent force afterwards@@ДокторЯдо
so you are saying that america unconditionally surrendered to the vietnamese and its armies were disbanded, after which they were put in an anti democracyfication where all traces of the previous regime was removed from the streets, books and people?
I first came across Sven Hassel’s books when I was a teenager in the 1970s. I had already become addicted to WWII history and these were the first fictional WWII books I read The books were the beginning of my personal library that is 50 years later approaching 10k books. I currently have Hassel’s books in ebook format on my iPad and will occasionally re-read some of my favorites.
I grew up watching The Rat Patrol and Combat! and have both series on DVD.
SS General was the first Sven Hassel book I read. Yes he was a fictional writer who took liberties with the truth, but he was a good writer and his characters resonated with me completely. In SS General between each chapter Hassel writes about the Night of Long Knives and the events that led to the killing of Rohm and other leaders of the S.A. It is very well done and is as close to the the real events as one can be.
This was very interesting and educational. Excellent research and very well written. There really is a serious disconnect with how World War II is portrayed in the Hollywood films verses the reality of what it was really like. Entertainment comes first and historical accuracy second. Will there ever be a World War II story told from the German side that just shows it exactly as it was? That is still yet to be seen.
The word "0815" is a colloquial term in German slang for something average, ordinary or standard. It is often used to describe something that is not particularly original or imaginative. The term originally came from military jargon and was later adopted into common usage to refer to standard or everyday items that have nothing special or unique.
Please see the other multiple comments and responses to this.
Like the phrase NPC
A very insightful and well made video. Top-tier work as always!
Excellent video, love the sources at the end !!
I remember the Sven Hassel and Kessler novels well from the early 1980's... they sold them in the NAAFI shops where i was based during my RAF days. they were fun, but obviously fiction based on real events, battles etc
I actually copped a Sven Hassel book quite an entertaining read
I've read them all and although I thoroughly enjoyed them Hassel tried claiming they were "autobiographical". It was pretty obvious though that they couldn't be unless he could be in two places at once. The film version of Wheels Of Terror was appalling. Having the two big stars David Carradine and Oliver Reed only appearing at the beginning and end was a joke. They obviously only did it for the money. 😂
I'd argue that memoirs written by ex-Wehrmacht members living in West Germany don't go against the saying "History is written by the victors", since they sort of landed themselves on the winning side of the Cold War. I believe that their writings would have fallen into obscurity if the Soviet Union somehow came on top and gained the cultural dominance.
History is written by survivors. Objectively speaking. Only disingenuous people with agendas use the term "History is written by the victors".
Its actually pretty common for history to be writren by the loser in my opinion. Many major civilizations claimed to be descentants of troy. Rome did with the Aeneid. And england did it with arthur.
Also if you live in the usa, the mythos of the CSA has rooted itself so severely, that the 'cause of the civil war' on the naturalization exam is the question that has 2 correct answers.
Or how the hippies/counter culture movement, the group that truly lost that era, is seen as the "good side" of 1960s-70s....
Losers write history all the time. Maybe because its easier to glorify what could have been instead of what was and is.
I am reading German-American, Peter Schwarzlose's book "Gulag". He had a German father and an American mother who were divorced. He was visiting his wealthy father in summer if 1939 when the war broke out and his own father thought he should serve Germany rather than go to Switzerland with his mother. As a teen, he had traveled with his mother from the US without need for a passport. The book reads like a novel and does have "stereotypical" characters in it. The author repeatedly relates how much he despised the regime for which he eventually was forced to fight. However, he includes some photos to back up his story. The level of detail is incredible and there is quite a bit of remembrances on sexual encounters. However, it remains a fascinating read, even if it appears embellished.
Very interesting - Panzer Gunner tells a similar story about a Canadian trapped in Germany and who fought in an armoured unit. There seem to be lots of stories of North Americans who ended up with the Germans. I believe there was a Rudi Salvermoser from New Jersey who famously served with Grossdeutschland and his story can be found online. Thanks for the recommendation, I will had "Gulag" to my list.
German war memoirs are awesome, IF you look at a man like Otto Carius and his memories of WW2, he's totally unapologetic. In docudramas like Bridge Too Far and Longest Day, you find a balanced picture of how they conducted themselves .
On the other hand, so much of German War Fiction (written AND filmed) is utterly unwatchable and unreadable==so much self pity and defeatism even when they are winning the war (Das Boot; Stalingrad(the start, at least), the novel Betrayed Skies); you look at these whining, handwringing, demoralized waifs and you wonder how the HELL they took over nearly half of Europe. And of course, NOBODY liked or supported "Dolph", and in these movies they absolutely must NEVER be shown to be winning.
Now, I understand that it's political 'poison' to show Germans being victorious or in high spirits or praising the Nazis and whatnot, but still, it flies in the face or 'real reality'.
Well sometimes in the popcorn cinema entertainment world, SS officers are portrayed like the ridiculous version that Malcolm Mc Dowell makes in "The Passage" from 1979 or the Nazis in Indiana Jones films. Purely for entertainment of course.
Yes, in "the Odessa File" (1974) I clearly saw the difference between a Wehrmacht officer and one of the Waffen SS totenkopf camp officers. But another over the top German officer who really came across as 007 the Prussian-Austrian officer was Major Hecht in the film "Escape to Athena" (1979) Complete with Bond-like fights. Hahaha.@@paulwee1924dus
@@paulwee1924dus The Nazis as buffoons is one of the reasons I can't watch Last Crusade and Raiders anymore. I had to swallow my misgivings and go see Dial of Destiny with my teen but, I shan't be seeing any of those again.
The Lionizing of Irwin Rommel started during the war. Winston Churchill lauded Rommel in a speech to Parliament
Rommel was a great offensive tactician. But he sucked at strategy, logistics and defensive planning. And that was how the "green" American Army and its undernourished British partner were able to defeat him in Africa and overcome his "Western Wall" at D-Day. His life was colorful to say the least. He was no saint and benefitted directly from his relationship with Hitler... until the July 20 plotters conspired to draft him as their replacement for the Fuhrer should their assassination succeed.
I will say; I was very, VERY nervous about the direction this video would take based on the channel name. Happy that it did not go in that direction.
Not sure I understand the concern over the channel name. Infantry Division 65 used a hand grenade for its insignia. The division was recruited in mid 1942 from a broad range of military districts, and though ostensibly a Rhineland formation it was heavily populated with men recruited in former Polish territory. The division served exclusively in Italy and was destroyed at the end of the war. They did not have a reputation for war crimes, though a number of reprisal actions occurred in the division's area of operations. I've seen some viewers mistake the insignia for that of the Dirlewanger unit, but their insignia was two hand grenades crossed.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Oh no, it's more of a general trend; basically there are two groups who use German militaria imagery; people interested in history or nazi sympathizers. Obviously from this video you're in the former category; but there was a concern initially that this might be a video promoting the clean Wehrmacht myth or even worse engaging in outright denial or endorsement of German war crimes.
Basically, a lot of WW2 imagery is used regularly to dog-whistle to specific political sympathies. Anytime there's an account that uses something like the Iron Cross for a profile picture I generally proceed with caution.
'Oh no, it's more of a general trend; basically there are two groups who use German militaria imagery; people interested in history or nazi sympathizers'
Or elite Ukrainian military brigades like Azov, who don the symbol of 2nd SS Das Reich@@BeansofBringles
@@juliantheapostate8295 Oh you mean the Azov battalion which has documented ties to neo-Nazi and far-right movements? That Azov battalion? The one which has an entire subsection on "Neo-Nazism" on its Wikipedia page? That one?
Well they would fit into the second category I listed: "Nazi sympathizers"
My biggest beef on military movies is how clean everyone is. If you look at ww2 photos many picture soldiers black from head to foot.
2:10 this is arrant nonsense. The 08/15 was an excellent piece of equipmement that served well, albeit late, in WWI. To understand the term, one must know that at the outbreak of the war in 1914, the German Imperial Army had less than 5000 MG08 in service. The whole army, mind you. The MG08 was a heavy piece of equipment, a Maxim type machinegun like the Vickers, weighing 65 kg in all, and thus not very mobile. The Ententete started to use more mobile machineguns like the Lewis gun and the French Hotchkiss, which were much lighter and could be used on the move.
The German manufacturer Loewe developed the MG 08/15 out of the MG 08. It was heavier than the Lewis and the Hotchkiss, but much more mobile with a total weight of 18 kg. It took some time ramping up the production, since the Imperial Germany was suffering severely under the blockade. However, in 1917 and 1918, roughly 120.000 MG 08/15 were produced. They became ubiquitous and nothing special. The machinegun, which was so rare at the beginning of the war that some reserve regiments were formed without the one machingun company the regular regiments had, had become a household item. The idiom 08/15 just means "nothing special".
I've seen both definitions in various literature, but nothing concrete as to its origins.
For example here (hardly an unimpeachable source, I know): www.thelocal.de/20190523/the-unusual-origins-of-the-german-phrase-0815
From which I quote: "With that machine gun, the MG 08/15, soldiers repeatedly carried out the same routine. That routine quickly got boring and started seeming meaningless to them. Another origin theory is that the 08/15 guns had a low quality due to their mass production in World War I - therefore nowadays, 08/15 can also be used to describe something that is lacking in quality or substance."
Also the book Kriegsprache edited by Thomas L. Houlihan ISBN 978-0-578-01849-2 which gives the latter definition.
Not trying to appear argumentative, particularly in this case as I'm not a native speaker, but I've had the experience with other topics, of which I'm on much more certain ground, of also being told I'm guilty of slinging "arrant nonsense." (Or words to that effect - I actually had to look up "arrant" thinking the phrase to have been "errant" and being happily surprised to have apparently learned a new word in my own language.)
I first heard the phrase something like 25 years ago in a history newsletter where an otherwise very knowledgeable author I admired insisted the phrase was equivalent to "Catch-22" and, in his words, "hurled at anything the German soldier didn't understand." Which I suspect is further from the mark from either of the two definitions given at thelocal.de Which is why I looked it up during the research for the video and, apparently, didn't look far enough to avoid this minor contretemps.
„If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals.“
- Curtis LeMay
Funny considering that america tends to prosecute its own soldiers for war crimes alot inspite of not losing many wars.
Sven Hassel's books were gold...his characters were brilliant...Tiny, Porta, The Old Man, Julius Hyde, Major Hinka, The Legionnaire etc
I don't know where mine went, but I had a good dozen of his books when I was in my late teens...such a blast.
I loved the humour in Sven's novels as well as the action.
I was thinking, "These sound like German versions of 'Lost Cause' literature," and then came the reference to Senator Vest's speech.
Outstanding video and presentation.
"The histories are written by the winners, no one asks them if they told the truth" A.H.
Excellent. Well written researched and delivered sir!
HIGHLY recommend Grossjohan's book. He was an NCO from the old Reichswehr through 1945, then in the Gulag for 4 years. It does seem as sanitized, however, as most of the German ww2 memoirs. Still one of the best of the 20 or so German memoirs I've read.
The clean Wehrmacht myth is very commonly accepted by many especially modern Germans due to laws making it illegal to not say bad things about all this. And I think it’s very unhealthy as a veteran once even lit himself on fire in protest even.
but the truth is the waffen SS and them committed the same amount of crimes.
The myth comes from the truth that not everyone was a monster or did these things and few live up to the Hollywood tropes completely . But it’s also true many don’t have much of a choice in wars and this one was bloody.
Since many people had family in the Whermact they scape goated the waffen SS. This was very convenient for the Cold War and a post war cope. But without it people would have rightfully put up more of a fuss
As it is insane what has happened post war
It would be healthy if the world acknowledged the crimes of every country involved and didn’t pick good guy bad guy but let people think hey that’s pretty nasty. But instead we get the Reddit view of the world projected
sadly this is ignored or lied about and used souly politically really and it’s disgusting as can be.
@@kommando5562Germany and the Axis Powers were unabashedly the bad guys, doesn't matter what you view about the Soviets.
It was as far as i understand it just post war to scape goat the SS and the nazi party and probbly encourged by the allies to get testimony etc as well as to lessen the blow for co operation. If you wanted to shoot anyone who did something wrong retroactively youd probbly have to genocide germany at that point. Which is probbly nkt s cknversation you want to have or a moral arhument when you a trialing peoole for doing just that
If you think we germans dont know. You should stop open your mouth
Yeah, Dresden was terrible.
Can't wait for a new upload.
Never clicked a vid so fast. Keep it up man!
Same here for me too
Excellent analysis that makes no bones about the heinous crimes of the Wehrmacht and the pernicious nature of the “clean” myths. As a young person, I was very much taken in by the Clean Wehrmacht idea, and books like The Myth of the Eastern Front helped open my eyes.
As a retired Air Force enlisted man, I can tell you, with out a doubt the same things happened in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and everywhere else the American soldier landed in the last 50 years...
What happened? Just missrepresentation of the war? Of coruse.
What was you AFOS
Hush now, when we do it it is nescessary and good.
Never question the one million Iraqis that had to go for "freedom"..
Islamic state fall of mosul 2014 be like@@Br1cht
@@Br1chtbetter than to have Hussain as country leader sure.
Unfortunately, Germany was simply destroyed. It was destroyed, not just like country (because lost half territory) but into the soul of the germans. Nowadays, many people there hate their own roots and are available for mass immigration that will soon change the ethnicity of Germany. Many people there don't know the sad destiny of their grandparents. 18 million people lost all in East german territories in Prussia, Poland, Czech Republic, and other countries. Many ethnic germans had to accept assimilation abroad. Where? In France, in Italy, in Hungary or Romania. Like my family. We accepted to be italians just to survive. After 80 years, it is so sad to realize that Germany is ruled by allies. You can see it clearly in all. The mass immigration, the punishment for all nationalists and the crazy establishment in parliament. They are criminals because they are selling Germany to their owners. Try to think on Nordstream, and you can realize what I mean.
I have a small stack of Japanese WW2 books written by or cowritten by Japanese WW2 officers, same problems that you have encountered with German books. While I dont think everything was out and out lies, it all mixed in failed recall, survivor bias, honor, ect. I think you have to wade through it and figure it out. My favorite book is Japanese Destroyer Captain and historians hate that book but less than Fujitas book on Pearl harbor. Keep up the good work.
Excellent. Thank You. Other than actual historic documentaries, I stopped watching television in the mid Nineteen Seventies for these reasons.
History is the study of records, not the study of what actually happened. Entertainment is the business of selling entertainment. Neither are about "what actually happened", but about "what will happen when".
And yet - as mentioned in the video - audiences are quite happy relying on entertainment to inform them. This includes in formal educational settings. Not passing judgement or saying how things ought to be - but that is definitely happening.
@@HandGrenadeDivision I remember getting into an argument with a guy online who was saying that the Soviets used 'blocking units' extensively. His source you ask? Why nothing, other than the film 'Enemy At The Gates'.
@@backtoshellac6459 the late John Hill extensively quoted Enemy at the Gates in the Designer's Notes for the Squad Leader boardgame he helped create circa 1977, and I got the sense much of the book helped inform his understanding of combat on the Eastern Front. Which, given the degree of accuracy around the whole sniper's duel thing, is kind of funny to think about now.
The Soviets did make extensive use of blocking detachments. However, they most commonly issued warnings and made the fleeing troops turn around. They rarely had to shoot men@@backtoshellac6459
The good German and 'good war' myth pertaining to the Africa theatre is indeed post war British propaganda. The National Socialist regime enjoyed upward of 90% approval rating and even in the last days of the war there were never reports of Nazi officials, officers or soldiers being killed in cold blood by their own men or by civilians. Contrast this with Soviet Russia where officers were feared thugs and many commissars and soldiers alike met their ends at each others hands. The idea that German soldiers fought for nothing other than 'wrong place, wrong time' is farcical. Everyone knew the threat of Bolshevism and fought gallantly against it. In many cases German soldiers fought to protect their own villages, as they knew the fate of their mothers, sisters, partners, and daughters (even infants) if the Russians overran them. Every German soldier would have regarded themselves as a National Socialist. Even the anti-Hitlerites in the army only opposed him because they saw him as a barrier to winning the war and were at worst national conservatives.
Personally I think the phrase 'history is written by the victor' is tired and overused, instead I like to say that we're so glad that the good guys have won every single war in history ever and the bad guys were ontologically evil.
@Lubnut While I suspect we may have a differing view of the Nazis, notwithstanding that statistic of 90% approval, I think it worth pointing out that in _free elections,_ the Nazis never attained more than 37.5% of the vote. While this did make them the biggest party, it remains the case that in excess of 60% of Germans who voted rejected the Nazis. In one election (not even their first), they couldn't even manage _3%_ . I think this fact is very often missed - or overlooked - by those who disparage Germans of that generation! As for the statistic you quote, while I'm no historian, or even particularly invested, politically, and am not familiar with that figure, I'm not at all suggesting it's 'made up'; but I would say, to what degree can you trust a number like that, if this was an accounting done _during_ the war, when people had a gun at their head? Again, I feel like this is something that might not be entirely grasped by people living in non - Axis countries, especially when _they_ have the benefit of hindsight. I do accept though that in the early days of the war, Hitler did enjoy an enormous groundswell of popularity, but this has to be remembered in the context of a country which had been humiliated at Versailles and brought to its knees, economically, and against the background of the Weimar Republic, a time and place that Liberals look back on romantically, but which was in fact an incredibly licentious and decadent time - and _not_ in a good way. Think modern day San Francisco, or Portland, perhaps! Of course, while not everyone could conceive of the systematic, mechanised slaughter that came later [EDIT: I'm referring to the camps!], I don't think anyone could deny the abuses taking place against those deemed 'undesireables', most particularly the Jews; but while I suspect an uncomfortably large number were thinking "Yeah, I never did much care for 'that lot' - they've brought it on themselves, they have", there was an equal or greater amount who, at worst, were thinking "Don't make waves, don't get their eye; I feel bad for the Jews, but at the end of the day, better them than me!" which might not be very edifying, from a moral point of view, but again, it's a lot easier to be brave and high - minded in a free country! How many of us disparage those who failed to take up arms against the likes of Idi Amin, off the top of my head, or the fanatics who ran ISIS, or Kim Jong Un?! So why is Germany a special case?! And finally, I agree with you, a lot of Germans, not unreasonably, saw the Bolsheviks as the worse 'Devil'! As bad as the Western Allies were, rendering people to lard (sound familiar?!) in the basements of Hamburg, Berlin and Dresden (to name but 3), their governments didn't sanction rape gangs to go around raping and sodomizing women and children to death, not to mention that it would be 40 years or more before much of the country (and much of Europe) were able to throw off the Bolshevik yoke...
@@richiehoyt8487 I'm not reading all that
OK, my comment is a bit overlong, but you could simply just 'not - read it', without being compelled to _tell me_ you're not reading it; that's just plain ignorance, especially coming from someone who's hardly a model of concision himself!
So, what is it? You not prepared to engage in debate with someone who's opinion you believe to be at odds with yours? Is that because you're too much of a moral coward, or simply that you feel intellectually incapable? The ironic part is, it was hardly even a question of debate; if you'd read past the first paragraph or so, you'd have seen that most of what I wrote was agreeing with you! Of course, I might be assuming too much; since you can write, you can obviously _read;_ but maybe you just lack the attention span for anything you haven't written yourself!
I'll just give you a tip for the future, since it seems like no~one took the trouble to teach you the right way of being in polite society -- "If you can't say anything nice... Say nothing at all!"
@@richiehoyt8487 Use paragraph breaks when changing a thought!
A mantra I formulated over a period of 40 years or so is "Everything one sees/reads/hears in the mass media about Germany and WWII, the exact opposite is much closer to the truth".
@@BasementEngineer Uh, yeah... 😔 You might have a point there; with regard to my writing style, I mean. As to the second, well, if not quite the exact opposite, certainly with enough salt to get the croaker concerned about your blood pressure, anyway!
[EDIT: I dunno if other people can see it, but from where I am, Basement Engineers comment doesn't seem to be showing up in the thread. For the record, he (I think) is essentially saying I need to open new paragraphs more when I change my line of thought; and whatever you come across in the mass media regarding Germany vis - á - viz WWII, you probably best ought to just assume the opposite...]
Excellent work 👍. This needed to be said !!
One, minor, quibble does the fact that some German officers (such as Manstein) were able to develop part of the current Western, and undoubtedly Soviet, narrative of the Conflict *really* disprove the old adage that it is the Winners the write the history books? Especially when the officers whose novels became so ubiquitous in the Western consciousness because they were either actively promoted by the contemporary powers, as was the Case with Manstein’s memoirs because it spawned the Clean Wehrmacht Myth which was politically convenient for the Western nations at the time, or because they pandered to the assumptions and values of the victors? Seems to me that these officers, for better or for worse, abandoned their fellow losers in order to become victors, at least after the fact, via the pen with which they wrote.
reddit tries so hard to disprove the fact that ''victors write history'' and they think that some generals being seen as anti nazi noble warriors instead of caricaturised losers is enough proof
Really enjoyed this breakdown but was hoping you’d mention the writer Heinrich Böll? ‘Billiards at Half Past Nine’ or his numerous short stories.
Very good video programme. Followed. 👍
Your video just came up on my Facebook feed I’ve just subscribed enjoyed this video 👍
This is a great video. There are a lot of reasons why Americans were sympathetic toward the "good German character" of the guilty populace of WWII Germany. These included the large number of Americans of German descent in the USA, the need for German technology and intelligence practices to stay ahead of the Soviet Union, and finally, the Anglo-American respect of the German Army as a warfighting force.
The egalitarian US Army in particular was not fond of a Wehrmacht Officer Corps made up of upper class Prussians. They had the same issue with British Army officers. So turning them into buffoons for American audiences was an easy transition. Ironically, the kind of middle-class/working class officer corps America prided itself on was most notably found in the Waffen SS, not the Wehrmacht.
The NAZI German military was made up of a generation of young people raised after WWI, many without their fathers (who died in WWI), and were fully immersed, educated, and propagandized by the Nazi Reich Regime. They knew nothing else except dim memories of the poverty and weakness of Weimar. They were not innocent but more akin to Pol Pot's brainwashed Khmer Rouge than to the average American or British draftee.
Hitler was a common soldier in WWI and an honored war veteran himself. Even as Fuhrer, he wore the uniform and ribbons of the common soldier, not the officer corps. This endeared him to many of those "good German soldiers" of popular culture. Most of the youngest of the soldiers worshipped him as a near Messiah and thus served him until the bitter end.
In fact, the Prussian upper class offers were the ONLY people who tried the end Hitler's regime and made up the bulk of the July 20 plotters. Rommel was not in this class and was addicted to the attention he received for his battlefield exploits (read his WWI memoir, Infantry Attacks). He was not the anti-NAZI depicted in popular media. He loved being a soldier, loved the attention of his successes, and benefitted directly from Hitler's respect for him as a tactician. He was implicated only because it was discovered that some of the plotters thought the popular general would make a good replacement for the Fuhrer.
I am so glad to find this video. Seems even the modern German people want to atone for their sins... but popular American culture is stuck with the "Good German" stereotype.
They lost the war but won the argument
11:27 Not sure why The Iron Major is listed as a "good German" but in the Sgt. Rock (from DC Comics) comics, he was Rock's arch enemy and certainly a 'Nazi soldier'.
Interestingly, while we're talking about DC Comics, I remember seeing an issue of a comic called I think "Blitzkrieg" in the 1980's, which was war stories seen from the German side. In that same period, British comics started telling stories of fictional German soldier heroes. In these stories, the protagonists were white washed by having relatives opposing the regime, or being "noble soldiers", "above the regime they fought for", or "fighting for their country, not the regime."
Blitzkrieg was from the 1970s, I have the premiere issue somewhere in my files, the entire run was five issues. It was wholly unremarkable and done in typical DC comics style with an emphasis on action-adventure, and pretty much no real understanding of the culture of the German Army. The three main characters were typical archetypes; a large brooding bully of the old hand type and of course "true believer", a bookish bespectacled older man, and the fair-haired gentle hero. It could have had legs but if the first issue was any indication, the stories were nothing out of the ordinary. The story began with the trio complaining about their lot in life - hungry, tired - and a warning that a "Luger bullet in your skull" was the likely result of questioning authority. The inference being there was no rule of law, something the actual courts-martial rate in German units proves false. A surprise raid by American paratroopers springs them into action, and our infantryman heroes are suddenly transformed into demolition engineers, mining a small bridge and blowing up the Americans that had taken it. The fair haired hero grapples with a dying lieutenant that falls into the water and a German is shocked to find photos in a dead man's wallet making him a 'man, just like me.' The story ended, IIRC, with the American paratroops all dead and the reveal that it was D-Day in Normandy. "The adventure continues." I seem to recall a different story with the same characters set in the Russian winter.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Thanks! I remember seeing that issue while I was still in school. This also tells me you probably know who the Iron Major was.
I may have been thinking a bit too much of Enemy Ace, drawn in the same Joe Kubert iron-jawed style, and conflated the two. My dim memories of the Iron Major was that he never seemed to die despite being locked in hand to hand combat with Rock, who also naturally survived, any time he appeared and thus must have had *some* redeeming qualities in order to be retained. Plus, to be honest, I just liked the picture. :-)
I have some of those books on soviet tactics that you pictured. I got them from my Grandfather, an Army Intelligence officer.
You correctly identify the handling of jewish people by the Germans but completely ignore the plight of the millions of Slavic people who were brutalized?!? WTH
You correctly identify that I completely ignored the plight of the millions of Slavic people who were brutalized but completely ignore my refusal to discuss Guy Sajer?!? WTH
@@HandGrenadeDivision Your use of sarcasm is bizarre - as is your refusal to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht against Slav civilians.
What would you have liked to hear about it, which would have placed it in the context of the video? Western audiences, by which I mean the English speaking countries I suppose, haven't shown much appetite for that topic, and if they did, I can't imagine many film-makers in the west being all too interested in the subject either. The video was meant as a quick examination of some prominent themes in fictional portrayals of the German Army and how those portrayals were influenced by the historiographical land scape of the times they were drafted - again, with reference to the west. If you feel that topic is significantly impacted by the absence of a discussion about films on a subject that no one within these parameters seem to have been interested in, I'm not seeing why.
This is why I really hate the age old adage that 'History is written by the Victors'. Maybe, in ancient times, when record keeping was not as good, and events WERE commonly twisted by those who were victorious, but the same does not apply in modern times, when accounts are relentlessly pursued regardless of the sides, and you'll always find somebody speaking up for them.
then why is our post war world is seen as ''good ending'' that would have been a hellscape in the event of a german victory? just because the dominant powers occasionally romanticize their enemy doesnt mean that the history is not written by the victors.
@@abbcc5996 The whole concept of “what aboutism” is not something extensively covered by historians. The History is History for a reason, because it happened, and we with context know what our world is like after an allied victory. Did an Axis victory happen? Do we truly know what the world would be like after such an event, good or bad? It’s equally as naive for you to think that you’d know, because you simply don’t. All we know is that the Axis entered this war with the mindset that they’d be able to conquer large swathes of land as if they were living in antiquity, and failed. And now we live in the present, a time where you can freely speak about such topics on forums such as here.
I read some Sven Hassel as a kid his books were pretty brutal
I found them funny as a 13/14 year old (some had a black bod in them that the others just said he had engine oil or mud on his face etc) or the one that was a bit like Kelly's heroes.
I read about 8-10 Sven Hassell books in my 20's and the early ones are more than just cartoonist fiction. His first, Legion Of The Damned, is an incredible and horrific book which seems at least 80% his true experience. Monte Cassino is fiction (Hassell was in Russia at the time) but is very entertaining while staying true to the actual events of the real battle.
I was introduced to the author on a trip to England in 1983. Oddly the characters used English vernacular, like, 'bloke' and 'bloody'. Frankly AH☠️ made his greatest MISTAKE when he didn't "stop" at Dunkirk. The Brits LOVED the Krauts 😉
@@cuchidesoto2686 exactly! A friend of mine, who was also a history nerd, kind of laughed when I told him I loved Sven Hassell. So I gave him Legion Of The Damned and said just read the first chapter. He ended up reading almost all of Sven's books 😄
The other thing is the cruelty of germans they try and depict that aren't based in fact at all.
excellent analysis
Fascinating. Thanks for your research.
Thank you for a very informative and interesting video. 👍
Amazing analysis!
Excellent. Thank you.
"Franz Halder is behind this!" - TIK
Around forty years ago I discovered the Sven Hassel series of novels and thoroughly enjoyed them. I believe the first in the series, 'Legion of the Damned' was semi-autobiographical, based on the author's own experiences in a penal battalion.
I recommend "Europa, The Last Battle" for a good understanding of WW2. o/
Best history documentary I ever saw. More important than any drama, especially Hollywood.
Most human beings perceive history through an emotional lens. And that's OK. It's the historian's job, not the novelist or filmmaker, to set the record straight. However, historians are human too so truth sometimes becomes subjective. Great video.
In Alan Bullock's 'Hitler: A Study in Tyranny', the author comments on the poetic nature of how it was the Army that shot down the 1923 Putsch, and it was again the Army that would assist the Nazis rise to power in 1933, and later pledge their total subservience to the party in 1934. Additionally, he recognises, as a man who lived during that time and an academic at that, how the history we know is a result of the widespread 'national feeling' - a term he uses often - of the people, of frustrations of the past, and the nervous excitement for the future, which included but weren't limited to reversing the territorial and military humiliations of the last war - a feeling so widespread that it wasn't limited by political affiliation. The Nazis reached their height of popularity when they did exactly that, marching troops into the Rhineland and doing away with all notion of adhering to the Treaty of Versailles and Compiegne. It was a war that the people wanted, the people fought, the people lost, and which became skewed in public perception with hindsight and confirmation bias when the people sobered up. We must also remember that of the millions of men who became part of the revived Wehrmacht, many were former SA, and many had come from the Hitler Youth, too, they were very much supportive of the regime. It's also very easy for us to pass judgement, and I did often in the past, but Bullock's work showed me otherwise and gives me a very visceral feeling that quite simply, 'you had to be there', and I have no illusion that I would resist or know better had I been a German alive during that time. I fully believe that if were that the case, that I, too would be one of those many who supported the regime and the war. I think that reflecting on this topic is a poignant lesson in how very human war, atrocity, and the task of justifying your actions and assigning blame is.
Brilliant video, mate, I'm glad that of all people to do it, it was someone like you, with books and articles on hand to cite and suggest, rather than someone like me who can name only a couple from which my understanding stems. You've more than earned me as a subscriber.
There are some exceptions to how germans generally write about the war. Most notable being the memoirs of Hans von Luck titled "panzer commander" tho i wouldn't count that as a strictly military view since it talks a lot about civilian and civilian life he encountered during the war and both post and pre-war period from his eyes including the POW experience in the USSR. I would say that talking about actual combat is the minority as much as just being a human story about his life journey trough the war.
It openly talks and i think sheds some light on how and why Rommel was idealized during and post war as he was brought up as an idol almost to young officers pre-war (Hans being one of them) and that might be reflected in a lot of writing. Another is showing a bit of a different side to both the african campaign and russian then is usually written about.
Makes more then a few passing mentions of corruption within the german military but also doesn't just write off soviets as "eastern savages" as i've seen a lot of german sources do(and western who want to pass all the war crimes against german women and civilians onto soviets even when them doing most of it is questionable in recent years ).
Hans seems to actually had a great deal of respect for the Russian culture even before the war and he recounts that he was treated fairly when he was captured aside from some beating by some of the soviet soldiers which was broken up as soon as a soviet officers saw it.
One of the most popular novelists was Paul Carell, who wrote books like “Hitler Moves East” and “Scorched Earth”.
Whose real name was Paul Karl Schmidt, a OStuBaf in the allgemeine SS and a Nazi propagandist during the war...
I noticed in the image for this video the "Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer is included. I had always assumed it was an accurate portrayal of of GD veteran, could anyone tell me if this is actually the case, as it is an extremely powerful and moving book. I believed the same about, Lothar Gunther Buchheim,s "Das Boot", I would add that in my personal opinion the 1981 Wolfgang Petersen series of the same name was also very powerful and emotive. Unbiased and honest opinions in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
It may be accurate to the author's perceptions, but anyone using it as a "bible" for understanding the experiences of the GD should probably reconsider, given the many errors of either fact, memory or translation. There is some other discussion in this comment section, and it seems public acceptance of the book as a legitimate memoir rather than a work of fiction has been steadily growing. For a riveting story, it has entertained thousands if not millions. For an "accurate" account, there are probably better books that would do more to inform.
Das Boot does indeed have the ring of truth to it but that's because it was written by a war correspondent/propagandist who not only lived the experience himself but was also trained in how to tell a good story.
@@HandGrenadeDivision
Firstly thank you for a very interesting video it was excellent work, I was aware of some of the discrepancies in Sajers book and I am relieved to know that it is a legitimate personal memoir, maybe not historically accurate but viscerally it is unbeatable in my opinion.
And as for "Das Boot" I own a copy of the book (U-Boat War) translated by Alfred A Knopf, 1978., I am not sure if you are familiar with it but In Petersens version of "Das Boot" the scenes when U96 encounters another U boat in a storm, is based on an actual event recorded in the book whilst Buchheim was aboard the real U96.
I was struck by the vulgar language of the sailors in Bucheim's book which had a ring of authenticity about it and would not have been included in anything published in the 1940s. Dimly remembered now but I seem to recall a sailor's story of being berated by his father, with the usual "after all I spent on raising you" complaint, and the sailor pulling a used prophylactic from his pocket, slapping it on the table, and saying "you can have your investment back." My copy still resides somewhere on my shelves but it's been awhile since I read it.
I completely agree that many, even the best films are not exactly good from a information standpoint. But I also feel that certain depictions in some films do have a place, my favorite German war Films are Stalingrad and Downfall. Stalingrad does fall into the trap of making viewers sympathetic to the germans, but it also importantly does showcase the many flaws in fascism. I also think Downfall is one of the few films I wouldn't criticize for the reasons mentioned in this video, the movie was meant to be sympathetic to show that anyone, and that means anyone can be a horrible person, or a monster as they say. It's one of the few that is self aware enough of this problem with WW2 Germans in entertainment.
“Under international law, which was murky at that time…they may not have technically been guilty of a war crime at that time.”
So…they were supposed to know what would be called “war crimes” at a future date?
As to the shooting of “civilians,” were they just random civilians? Or non-uniformed partisans?
There wasn’t an international law yet apart from two conventions, particularly about other combatants.
The German army procedure for dealing with partizans was just kill everybody they could grab in an area, assuming everybody who stayed was either implicit or OK with it. This is exactly what Ukrainian army does today by the way.
I love this channel
Erwin Rommel was such a good leader and noble officer when he received orders he didn’t like he would turn off his radio set and not follow them😂
TBF at least the Erwin Rommel thing was the most Understandable Myth in there, unlike say the Clean Wehrmact one or other Worse Myths,
People back then needed basically a Hero to inspire them and the Myth of Rommel being this Noble Hero who defied the Nazis was appealing to Germans,
Because lets face it if anyone was put in the same position you would probably do the same,
In a time when the Crimes of Monsters are Excused, people need a Hero to look up on even if its Never Real in the 1st Place.
@@forickgrimaldus8301nonsensical. As we can see from the numerous yet now declared illegal inquiries in 2022 most the claims about dirty Wehrmacht were lies. They really were clean and it became a political tool to delegitimize their service. Please keep up to date on the current information meta
Exellent video on such a critical topic to understand for anyone interested in ww2 well done sir!
I've read a lot of soldiers diaries and stories of World War II and most of them have been Germans on the Eastern front. There's a huge variety of angles and a huge variety in writing talent but some of them have been very good. I'm currently reading The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer and it's been really good. For the most part the officers aren't bloodthirsty and stupid. I guess it doesn't fit into that described pattern.
Grossjohan's "recipe" was for fiction, while the books you are reading are non-fiction. Grossjohan complained that fiction writers were purposefully not describing history as it was, while the memoirs you are reading were designed to do the opposite - though to be fair Grossjohan also complained that memoirists were often self-serving and untruthful, or at the least evasive.
@@HandGrenadeDivision the main protagonist in this story is a coward and makes it very clear that he's a coward. He's very young in this story and it's all really good except for the parts that deal with his attraction to a German girl named Paula. He is ridiculous and his whole relationship with her is cloying and over flowery and it makes me remember that he's a teenager. It's available as an audiobook on TH-cam for free. It is really good and very gritty.
I have a dog-eared copy of Sajer (that's actually my copy in the thumbnail for this video). I think I picked it up in an airport in the 1990s. I really should read through it again sometime. You may have found the perfect antidote to claims it is fiction - it doesn't fit Grossjohan's recipe!
@@bookaufman9643 The problem with Sajer's book is that it's most likely fiction masquerading as a memoir.
@@Zenedon I can't remember if it contains fiction. It rings true for the most part. A lot of the diary form books after World War II were complete propaganda or exaggerations and the books by the German generals were mostly lies to make themselves look more competent. I sometimes forget that even a book as believable as All quiet on the Western Front is a work of fiction. An honest work of fiction rather than a nonfiction / fiction hybrid which so many of these other " true rememberances" are. World War II doesn't have that great fiction novel like "All Quiet..." At least not one with the popularity that that book has.
While not the best way to learn history, film can be a good way to become engaged with history.
Heinz Konslaik was a good author and very popular in German.
Interesting documentary, thanks
When are the books and movies about Red Army atrocities going to come out? The Red Army, Bolshevik secret police, early KGB, etc have a rich history of war crimes stemming from 1917-1958. Yet we rarely ever hear about the Gulags, purges, deportation of many millions, ethnic cleansing, etc. Why is that?
Oh right, because the were part of the Allied coalition.
As a point of order, there was only one Gulag....but it's a valid question. The answer is simple. When someone with skin in the game feels they can make money off of them. Same as any other kind of movie.
Winner writes history
Sven Hassle polluted my young mind! In my defense I was left unsupervised!
Your depiction completely lacks the "why would the germans be naive and fight for Germany despite of these terrible crimes" and just assumes everyone was a retard, look at the years before the war, the terrible defeat after the first world war, the failing econony, the blame being shifted on the politians and the jews. Everyone was fed up with the state of the country and they willingly fought for Hitler and his compatriots after the years of hardship, they needed a figure like him and they welcomed him when he finally had the power to change things. The quick victories in 1939 and 1940 rolled in and given the same precinct of steady victoriesn anyone would join the army and help the cause. After all what would you do? Join some resistance and risk death? Flee the country? Where to? Try to not die on the front and dodge the warcrimes and reprisals? Impossible. Afterwards everyone was smarter and everyone kept talking about how they were in some kind of resistance, how they were a medic or how they didnt fight at all (highly unlikely)
You only have to say ‘what’s the film? Demarcation’
And anyone who has ever seen it knows immediately it’s Cross of Iron.
Another example is
‘Repeat please’ from Battle of Britain.
Some films have these spoken moments that just stick in your head even though the words themselves aren’t obviously linked to the subject in the way quoting ‘use the force Luke’ or ‘you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off’ are.
Infamy Infamy they've all got it in fer me!
About the oath part, Robert Citino, in his "Why Did the German Army Fight to the End?" lecture points out that a lot of Heer officers also made oaths to uphold the Weimar Constitution but didn't follow that one so it is probably not the best excuse.
Excellent point. They only followed the oath when it benefited them.
It's better to die standing on your feet than on your knees.
The military is full of self-interested careerists. What a surprise.
Very good. Thank you.
As a soldier, being involved in a war of your own country's politicians doing, your responsibility is to your men. There are really no politics in the 'trenches', only a sense of duty to yourself and your unit. Those of us who served can all agree that General Officers are politicians, for the most part. The self pity needs to stop. I would like to see a militarily strong Germany that participates in the world emergencies. This will never happen if we continue to blame Germany and Germans for something that their 19-century born leaders got them into. History is not always kind in retrospect. It's time to move on.
Yes the petty officers and in turn the enlisted men gets to become tools of the politician doing there dirty works
Nah, Wehrmacht soldiers were given criminal orders to dispense any and all means against Jews and Slavs and untermenschen, and they did it willingly. This false shithood of the Wehrmacht being apolitical soldiers needs to be extinguished, as they are not apolitical, but is the primary genocidal right arm of the Nazi Regime, with the SS and the NSDAP being its left.
I may be mistaken and correct me if I’m wrong, I think Dr. Robert Citino has a great lecture on something like this. About how the Wehrmacht definitely knew what they were doing. They weren’t clueless patriots. They knew exactly what was happening and they didn’t do anything about it and even perpetrated the horrible things Hi*ler wanted. If anyone can find the lecture please let me know the title. It was here on TH-cam.
Edit: Dr* Robert Citino
There are good books on the subject, including by German scholars. Wolfram Wette wrote "The Wehrmacht" for example.
And nowadays the west still downplays real living nazism in Ukraine and how neo nazi Ukrainian millitary units are really no different in function to waffen SS in ww2. The whole reason that embarrassment happened in the canadian parliment was because zelenskyy was visiting and they cheered the nazi veteran because at least he was "killing Russians" back in the day. The fact the Ukrainian nazi had escaped to canada after ww2 goes into another rabbit whole of how post ww2 the allies recruited nazis of all different nationalities for millitary, convert intelligence and scientific research value. It didnt matter if these individuals were guilty of war crimes or members of notorious units. Thier value against the allies new enemy the soviet union was prioritized over justice. The allies never really cared about war crimes or discrimination and they committed both abeit not so prolifically or proudly as the axis.
You could do the same video on the history of military engagements between England and Spain .
The amount of novels could take a Lifetime to read 😅
I have read most of the books shown in the cover photo.
And what's your opinion these days? Do they hold up?
@@HandGrenadeDivisionI would stay away from Hassel & Kessler.
Great video. I actually own a few of those books, haha.
Can I have some.
@@fromthepagesofhistory3248 Unfortunately no, these books were hard enough getting into australia :D
So after watching this video i didn't get the message. Idk if im dumb but can someone explain it to me
I was afraid I might be rambling toward the end, so I don't think you're dumb. There was definitely no major conclusion at the end, just that after reviewing the timeline of how history and fiction have interacted over the years, there is probably no real definitive work of fiction that both entertains and fully captures the experience of the German Army in the Second World War. It would be hard to do that, I think. There is no one single film that captures, for example, US experience in Vietnam, though there are several good movies that capture part of it. Arguably "Band of Brothers" is the gold standard for US experiences in the European theatre of World War II, but they had ten hour-long episodes to try and do that. Mostly though, I think my message has been "it's complicated" which is why it would be difficult to expect film goers - and modern audiences - to be able to come to terms with it in a way that truly reflects the times. Or something.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Thanks for giving your time to write this conclusion. I aggre its extremely complicated especially in todays world
Any kind of fictional works tends to do this, idk about BoB doe haven't watched it... how about portrayal of wars in any war sim games? tactical or strategic stuff that might be fun
-also should prolly pin this lol-@@HandGrenadeDivision
I'm waiting for your follow up video about the atrocities committed by the military of the other nations in WWII as well as other wars. Some German armed forces were noted for civil behavior such as the Kriesmarine.
I checked with the ops staff and on review of the general orders we publish weekly here at Hand Grenade Division HQ, it would appear no such plans are in the works. For myself I can't really confess to any great interest in what-about-ism. From what I can tell the Canadians committed exactly one atrocity, when they burned down the town of Friesoythe in northern Germany after the popular CO of Hamilton's Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders was killed by a sniper. Thinking he was done in by a civilian, the always entertaining General Vokes ordered a reprisal. Hmm, now that I say it out loud, maybe that would make for a good video. Certainly the circumstances that led him to command the 4th Armoured Division are noteworthy.