Vintage Speaker Upgrade: Replace Your Capacitors!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Possibly Unsafe is back with a speaker upgrade! Turns out capacitor performance degrades over time... and as ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) goes up, the highs go away. So this week we're replacing the capacitors on a pair of vintage Klipsch speakers to restore the sound back to the original spec. It's easy... and there's a good chance upgrading the capacitors in your crossovers could make for better sound.
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Fucking finally!, I've been waiting for this for way to long.
This afternoon I examined the crossovers of Kef C80 Speakers made in 1988. Fourteen capacitors in total on each board. I carefully unsoldered one lead of each cap and measured the ESR with a meter. Not one of the Alcap had an ESR higher than 0.24 ohms, nor had the uf value changed from specified. So, before spending a small fortune on designer components check them out first and save some money !
You're absolutely right
Klipsch of that era use Paper in Oil caps (or "oil caps" for short). They don't often suffer from increased ESR over time. That was done here, in all likely hood was a "downgrade". The capacitors used here can in some cases result in a "hot or zippy" sound. Especially in the Hersey which has allot of MF / HF muscle. But hey -- sometimes fresh caps can help -- but did they even measure with an ESR meter?
a $1000 ESR meter? no i doubt it.
Hobby ESR meters are more like $100-200. And, In a pinch a simple multimeter can show faults in some caps.
OK I have re-capped dozens of crossovers and I use a B&K 885 meter to check things out. All of the older PIO's I have checked were high ESR up to .8+ and the new audio poly caps I replace them with are .007 at the worst. Further all the older non PIO cheapo caps used from places like Mexico also test much higher for ESR even if the uf values are OK. New caps have much better tolerance so all the way around you get far closer to the engineers design intent. Now some people like distortion which those high ESR caps will certainly give you but neutral sound from your crossover is best and then change it to taste with Audacity or an equalizer. Yes I have measured them with quality meters and the old stuff is bad.
Wrong
HiFiTown: You're a self-styled expert, but you don't even know the name of the speakers. "LowFiTown" would be more appropriate.
If those large campbell's soup looking things are capacitors then what are those vertical square looking things on the side?
Wish this channel was still active =\
So many "audiophile" capacitors are nothing but snake oil and a total waste of money. Just get some quality Panasonic FM or some Nichicon FG or ES series and call it a day. A few years back there was a big capacitor comparison done on some "audiophile" site and of course they found the stupid expensive caps the best. They almost had me convinced until i read the following excerpt.
"V-cap Teflon and Audio Note Silver are two very best capacitors in the world as of
now. My enthusiasm for them cannot be understated. As a matter of fact, my heart
started racing while writing this section, accompanying by dry mouth, sweaty palms,
dilated pupils, and so on. When I heard them the first time this year, I literally had to
pick my jaw from the floor afterwards, both times. The experience is equivalent to
religious transformation in the Kingdom of High-fidelity!"
And that load of BS is why i don't listen to "audiophiles" anymore. When a single one of these "audiophiles" manages to pass a proper double blind test, they're just hot air to me.
Lmao did you just tell us to replace non polarized crossover capacitors with polarized electrolytics? If you're going to call out people for not knowing their stuff, how about you learn your stuff? Please dont listen to this guy, if you want non audiophool NP film caps for your crossover, use some Dayton or Solen crossover caps of PartsExpress. Yet another comment proving the anti audiophool crowd is just as clueless as the audiophool crowd they love to criticize.
Nothing beats vintage audio - they just don't make stuff like they used to, especially receivers and amplifiers. But, as capacitors age beyond 25-30 years, they need to be replaced as they go out of spec, ESR goes up and they tend to leak around the leads and onto the circuit board which then eats away at the board.
This is a great video.
I agree with you on speakers but I have to say that class D amps are they way to go, especially with Klipsch. I have a 15 W Class D amp running both my KG 5.5s and La Scalas and the sound is effortless and very 'fluid'. I actually just got new caps for my HIP from parts express this morning and am excited to put them in later.
@@ColoradoStreaming I have 3 class D amps. All neutral, transparent and FAR more powerful than vintage.
@@scottlowell493 lol oh really? You haven't heard the right vintage amp then.
Where did this channel go??? :\ Or either of these guys.
Most old electrolytic caps should be tested or replaced, however these orig caps are high grade components. They are probably well within spec. Unnecessary replacement in such case devalues the speaker and more than likely degrades their performance. (wise to test them and restore to original)
false the ESR is prob super high compared to these newer caps and unless you have $1000 for a decent ESR meter to test that spec...
@@jozeppy26The notion ESR affects the sound is a mis application of the test. ESR is good for finding leaky caps at high DC voltages.... ESR is measured at 100khz, not in the audio spectrum. Modern film caps discharge so quickly on AC (audio) -- this affects tonality worse than an old leaky cap.
I changed caps in my 49 year old KEF Cantor cross over network for Monacor caps. I was chocked how the mid and treble suddenly opened up and played music with a chrystalline quality to it. Was not expecting this total transformation. At first I kind of was overwhelmed...having been used to the vintage warmth and the softness ...
Holy crap, Patrick Norton. I haven’t seen you forever. Great to see you again. You and Leo Laporte were my favorite IT guys with Tech Tv like 2004. Thanks for this.
3:25 Is that a big Tech Tv sign in the background... ooh look, my childhood. lol
squacker is the original term used for midrange frequency driver. gosh I feel so old at 50, when I went to electronics school 30 yrs ago, we still call them squackers.
+ Squawker
T C Woodworks and Design Midringe drivers have been called squawkers for at least 70 years. I've been following stereo--and mono--components since before you were born. I don't know if you are misspelling or mispronouncing the name, but it's "squawkers."
Appreciate the video. Thanks dudes. I actually work on HID are lighting and have seen many blown capacitors over the years. But in that particular application, that old school oil filled capacitors are the best.
Now I'm ready to order a kit for three sets of vintage speakers and re cap all of em. They definitely need it.
Good and fun video guys! Congratulations for the job and the new car! Now I want to point out that if you try to listen to a speaker while another one is playing, you make it harder to distinguish the subtle variations between them. When I test some speaker modifications, I connect both of them on the right or left side of my amplifier, one on the 'A' channel and the other on the 'B' channel. By switching from on 'A' to 'B' I can be sure to have reliable point of reference to judge the change. Thank you and good luck on your next projects!
Using the balance control on the receiver or pre - amplifier would have made the comparison far easier.
I wander if you can help me,I been trying to recap my speakers crossover ,I can seen to find anywhere this capacitor made by spirit 106J 100v and also spirit 275J 250V any ideas ? I’ll appreciate and new in this ,thanks
I bought the fully assembled kit from Bob. It made a HUGE difference with my 1980 Heresy's. I absolutely love them now. They were really flat before. Now, they sing like no other speaker I have.
Absolutely makes a difference. Anyone saying differently is full of shit or has absolutely horid ears
Good to know. I recently picked up a pair of 1981 Heresy's. I'm driving them with an MC240 and they sound fantastic. I just purchased a crossover repair kit from Bob not because the speakers sound bad, but because I know they can sound better. It's coming in a few days and I'm looking forward to swapping out the old oil cans.
You guys had absolutely no reason to change those oil filled caps. They last forever. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
"If it's 10 or 20 years old, or at least from the 70s or 80s" is quite a large difference (10-20 years, vs 25-45 years, when the video was made)
Presumably anything older than 10 years old could possibly have degraded capacitors?(depending on the quality of the capacitors)
Anyone catch the old Tech TV logo around 3:30 ?
Awesome.
It's a mystery to me why people like the Heresy's so much. I've owned 3 pairs at various times and thought they all sound harsh with too little bass.
Hey man, what's that channel where you both tried to build a pc that you can hang to the wall? I've been looking for that channel forever! I was trying to recommend it to a friend of mine but I just can't find it haha. You, the guy with the plaid shirt (sorry I forgot your name 😅). I thought I saw you on a channel called 'TechTV' way back in around 2002-ish. I was 8 years old then haha. That was when the sat company in my country has the TechTV channel in its programme.
5:34 "I think I hear a difference".
Exactly what I was about to say. I can't tell a difference with upgraded DACS. =D ha ha ha ha I expected I wouldn't be able to either.
Now for more serious talk. What is the caps I need to get for my Dynaco A25's. Thinking I may need to recap them. Hope you can help me out
I did the Crites thing on Heresy I’s and Forte I’s, a noticeable diff. But in the Heresy’s I left the old caps there disconnected, for originality if nothing else, and they looked cool. Funny too was that every cap I replaced I tested with an LCR meter and all were in spec with low ESR, but not as low as the new sonicaps. Somehow they sound better with new.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Unless the driver's sounded really muddy.
so what capacitance to use with highs, mids, and lows?
should probably also replace those iron core inductors with air core ones
You guys look like Real life WRECK IT RALPH and FIX IT FELIX!
The oil filled capacitors don't sound very good but don't need to be replaced. Only electrolytocs need to be replaced. Mylar caps don't go bad. The newer caps are Chinese metalized caps that sound terrible. Don't change your caps unless you want to have a bright sound
This is a ridiculous. You can't listen to one speaker at a time on a table. It's stereo. Different things are coming out of each speaker
Hey Pat should let leoTard solder the next one
As cheap as capacitors are, it’s worth replacing them especially if you’re refurbishing them to sell.
The Sonicaps they used are definitely not cheap lol
When did soLdering become sohdering?
Turn the wire stripper around, it works much better!
I see who you came up with your TH-cam name.
Wir freuen uns, Ramses Electronic Imaging and Sound Systems unter uns zu sehen.
The Audiophools are gonna start screaming about PIO caps any second.
(Yay for drunken Snubs!)
I have Klipshe Forte II's Vintage my butt. These things still kick out better and more sound than anything else I've heard. LOVE my Forte 2's
+WreckDiver99 Forte II's, what I have. Bought them in the box (used of course) for $200 each, a steal in my book.
+Scott Martin oh yea....that's a steal. I don't even want to talk about what I paid for my Forte II Speakers 25 years ago....but I can rattle windows a block away and they aren't distorted. too bad Klipshe was bought out and their quality dropped. These are some of the most efficient speakers and best sounding speakers I've ever had the pleasure of owning (away 25 plus years ago the best I heard).
+WreckDiver99 I have had them for about 5 yrs, the guy bought them new, went military so he shipped them in the box to Japan and back, and then sat in his basement (dry, thank goodness!) for almost a decade. I am very pleased with being able to rattle the windows myself! Peace my friend
@@docmartin449 how the fuck did u find them for 200 each? Lol. Bro yiy have no idea how low that is. Especially in the box. Wtf. No one will ever find that deal again
I wonder what happened to these guys...
Nice video my vintage speakers sure need some updating
Squawker? LOL.
Why no more vodeos?
I thought he did tech vids?
I had 2 pair of 1974 vintage Altec Lansing Model 7 Speakers which I changed capacitors and speaker terminals. I spent $150 on the first pair and they sounded much better than the pair not recapped. I spent $350 on the second pair (they have sentimental value). They sound much better than the first pair. The highs are really different. One thing I notice is how a snare drum and cymbal sound real (had a drum kit for years). I can't believe how good these speakers sound. The source and Dac, pre amp, class A tube amp all contribute. I doubt that for what I spent you could buy better speakers. The lesson is different capacitors sound different. You can spend a little or a lot. If you like highs buy a higher grade capacitor for the tweeter. I purchased parts from Parts Connection. New caps can take more than 100 hours to break in. Be patient.
You guys should update the title to Klipsch heresy upgrade. Alot of Klipsch fan would appreciate this video
You replace the caps with 200V types only? Why didn't you go for 630V MKPs? They'd sound even better.
FYI,next time change the balance from 1 speaker and hear it,then change balance all the way to the other speaker and let us hear the difference if there is any with the new parts vs the old parts live on camera.thanks for the info on the fix.
My beloved circa 1986 AR 58b speakers and I thank you! 😀
Sodder? 😆
What happened to DIYtryin?
*****
can you provide a source?
Hi guys: you made it look so simple I want to upgrade my vintage Kenwood Speakers. Could guide me on how to choose best replacement capacitors? Can I change the values too? Do I need to change the coils also? And what about those white ceramic things? Thanks
You mentioned you had 5 videos that were almost work. Are they coming any time soon? You have some interesting stuff going on here. Don't waste it.
Place a piece of paper or cardboard between the jaws of the clip so it does not act as a heat sink.
Change out the coils with air coils also. Another improvement, maybe not as much as the caps but an improvement.
Those old PIO caps tend to sound great and last practically forever.
Why wouldnt you go back and forth using the speaker left and right selector so you and viewers can hear if there is a big difference.
I would of just unconnected the oil caps and mount the new caps with some hot glue on top maintaining the old for looks
Man this show looks awesome, shame it seems we aren't getting any anymore
Co to są za kolumny i jaką jest różnica po wymianie kondensatorów czy jest lepsze stereo
uhhhh.. soo is this channel dead? it feels like a video every 2 months then gone and I know Patrick is all into tekthing now
Another common mistake made by audiophiles .
The speaker was originally VOICED with these original oil capacitors and their inherent different electric characteristics inclusive a higher ESR than these high end wonder weapons ( probably crap made in Chinese ).
You should at least have checked the original capacitors and ONLY if necessary replaced them with new quality oil capacitors....
The good musical balance and sound of a lot of vintage amplifiers and speakers is ruined this way ..........what you will win with more detail and definition is often what you will LOSE in harmony , coherence and musical balance ..............
I made the same mistakes in the PAST !
Apparently you are completely unfamiliar with Bob Crites and his work on all klipsch. I'm sure if there was a better option he would know
Cite a source for these speakers being VOICED for these caps. I have yet to see one single source that isn't forum anecdotes demonstrating this was ever done.
Wow those speakers sound so more realistic than the modern crap we hear, it sounds like a real person in the room singing.
What’s up with the ABS plumbing pipe venting the back panel? Heresy’s are a closed box speaker.
2:25
Great video, enjoyed watching. Currently dabbling in the hobby of vintage audio. Old tech tv fan, Tekzilla, Tekthing... Patrick let us know where you end up making content in the future :)
Should of upgrade the whole crossover
WOW!!! Looking for my first capacitor replacement, and super stoked to see a P.Nort tutorial. My project is off to a good start!!!
Thanks guys! I have a pair of 1983 Heresy with the same Type E network that I'll be replacing the oil cans with new caps. I have minimal soldering experience so it was nice to see how easy it is.
GS research has better parts upgrades parts
"I think i can hear a difference"
On your preamp there should be a knob, slider, or pair of buttons that is labeled "balance". When comparing left and right channel output through loudspeakers... use the balance knob to switch back and forth between speakers to compare the output sound.
That and setting the output to "Mono" if possible. Helps to compare apples to apples.
I hope You were aware about tolerances of old and new capacitors values in production. It is 99% sure that ANY replacement of capacitors inside crossover the sound must change it's sounding due to fact that of new capacitor applied with new value . Some may think it is the proof that old one was wear but it is likely misleading. There should be appled two more steps: one is to test capacitor for it's deficiences - if it is so important and obvious it must be easy then. Anticipation is not too precise. Second is when wear one is found then new capacitor should be matched to old one with tolerance max 1%. I would keep old capacitor as a sample.
I don't get why they replaced the oil caps, those never go bad. The new ones won't last nearly as long, maybe it's just me.
is this channel a joke? you have racked up $400 a month on patreon whilst making 4 videos since December. Either support your fans or take down the patreon page.
+ScreenDr Not a joke, every episode takes a lot of work and Michael's just really busy. We stopped collecting money after the first month when we knew that we wouldn't be able to fulfill the twice a month quota (that's why it says "$395 per None" on the page). The plan is to get back to a regular schedule eventually though! We have 4-5 projects pretty close to being ready, but it's the shooting/editing that's the hard part.
+Possibly Unsafe Good luck to the both of you. Can't wait to see more videos.
+Possibly Unsafe close? I should think 3 months is enough to upload something *close* to being finished
+ScreenDr
They are recovering from 3rd degree resin splash burns.
stereorail Just wondering, what is your source?
I've seen the bigger guy somewhere before......can't remember where....what show I mean
happystar1000 he looks like vinny from Orange County choppers
Holy crap, this is a channel? Subbed.
Yea... 3 Months is like forever on TH-cam
How do you know they were bad?
im gonna busta cap in yo pcb
i like these guys
I really look forward to future videos. I'm not sure what happened with the Diy Tryin channel so I was glad I found this channel.
Well this aged badly
Great channel! Subbed
Should have played one speaker at a time for the viewers, this way we can't hear the difference, really a pity for such a nice video
Before changing capacitors, please discharge before or you will get a shock if they have a charge. Check internet for instructions.
The voltages in a speaker are too low to cause a shock.
Can you please tell me why you guys don't upload on the other channel you have and which channel or channels will you be uploading to because I like your videos and diytryin was a very good channel but I don't see any new uploads by you guys. Thank you.
Zarif Ahmed DIY Trying is dead, there was some restructuring with the company if I recall correctly. (Check the comments on the last few vids for more info.) and both of them left.
In any case, we got the DIY trying spirit still alive with these two, and that is great!
Without Patrick and Micheal together, it just isn't the same, they are a Top Gear like duo of the DIY world.
CMDR Sweeper
I completely agree with the last part.
An oil filled cap usedin a speaker should last A VERY LONG TIME. caps in that application are living in benevolent conditions. If the cap is original I wouldn't replace it unless it tests bad because the cap was voiced with that caps characteristics.
If you put a different type of cap in listen to it and make sure you like the sound.
Salud desde España
not so easy a job on my Klipsch KLF30'S. got an intermittent midrange (squaker) I'm guessing is caused by a bad cap? Patrick looks familiar, weren't you on the screen savers show years ago?
Thumbs up for Yeungling but glad you're back.
You're finally back. Good job guys!
it doesnt matter what kind of caps you use. in guitar wiring, theres a lot of people that like to yell at each other for using ceramic disk/mylar film/oil and paper/whatever caps in their guitar wiring for the tone knob when it doesnt matter! all that matters tone wise is the number because theyre the same(plus or minus the tolerance of course)
Nice to see you back,worried you were gone forever.
“By the time a capacitor is 10-20 years, old at least if it’s from the 70s or 80s, it’s barely functioning as a capacitor.” Wow, in the history of internet hyperbole, that statement takes the cake. I and many, many others have speakers and components with capacitors older than that which test completely fine for leakage (DC electrical leakage) and value and are physically in perfect condition. Some brands and styles of caps are more prone to problems as they age, but a wholesale recap based on that statement couldn’t be more wrong and misguided. Test caps (the right way) and replace if needed. I find bipolar capacitors in speakers even from the 60s rarely need replacement and test fine. That said, there are other types of electrolytic caps from that period which have a high failure rate, and I replace on a regular basis.
I’m not saying replacing the caps in these speakers wasn’t necessary, but as you never tested them it’s impossible to say it was worth it. The side by side listening test of the untouched and recapped speakers isn’t particularly convincing, but if there was an improvement, maybe there were problems that you fixed. Again, I really just have an issue with the statement I quoted above and I’m sure if you had a chance, you’d consider rephrasing it or qualifying it with some facts.
A new episode!!! Yay!!!
I can't wait until the next episode! Keep it up :D
where can i order the parts ?
Bob Crites is the go to person for all things vintage Klipsch
www.critesspeakers.com/speaker-cabinets.html
Great upgrade !! Need to do this
This was just incredible! Keep this up!!
Great jobs boys.
Cheers
Probably as the capacitor ages, and the electrolyte dries, it becomes less of a filter, and a larger range of frequencies go to each speaker. I'd never heard the squawker term, I like it :) Might have been interesting to see a before and after spectrogram. Interesting video.
Those are not electrolytics but PiOs. Have you ever seen a 2uF electrolytic THAT size? Those caps were most likely fine.
Yea! You're back. Glad to see Michael is still alive. Keep these up please, as this is one of your best and most interesting productions, Patrick.