How do you know if your caps have aged?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- Capacitors in electronics as well as loudspeaker crossover networks age. When and how do you know to change them to newer ones? Paul gives his sage advice on the subject.
Have a question you want to ask Paul? Go to www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/ - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I always assumed amplifiers hummed after a number of years because they began to forget the words to the music they played.
That explains so much, my amp does the same, and the older I get I notice I do it too 😂
😂
I love it , That was the funniest thing I've heard in years FIVE STAR 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 comment ❤👍
Soldering is a skill that just about every audiophile (enthusiast) or musician should learn , it's easy (most of the time) fun and rewarding when you realize you can do it yourself.
It's desoldering that is the real art. It's often too easy to damage the PCB when desoldering.
You can literally save thousands of dollars on gear. It's just components, pcbs, wires, and some solder!! And you can fix yer gear, but yeah desoldering takes patience and control. Don't skimp on tools for desoldering, but to get started all you need is a Hakko or Weller iron and some ROHS compliant solder (plz...I promise some of the most beautiful instruments and equipment do not use lead, it is a myth that it affects sound quality negatively)
Did a complete recap/crossover rebuild of some Klipsch Quartets. Converted all caps to films with Clarity Cap and air core inductors. What a difference! A really beautiful speaker now that sends shivers up my spine.
When possible, no matter the item, if you can replace any electrolytic with a film just do eeeeet. Seriously it is a no brainer as films will normally out live any of us while electrolytic caps begin drying out the moment they are plugged in for the best ones and the crappy Chinese ones they begin the moment they are made.
Thanks, Paul, for answering my question! And thanks to everyone who commented.
A little background info, for those commenting. Yeah, I can solder and will replace the caps myself. I've had the crossovers apart, when I (partially) bypassed them to use one of Phil Marchand's XM-44 active cross-over kits in a vertical bi-amp configuration. Phil was kind enough to build high and low pass cards for me with custom crossover points and slopes. Really loved the way the Duetta's sounded like that, but one of my amps died (was using identical stereo amps, one per side). For unrelated reasons, I put the speakers aside. It was because I've had the crossovers apart that I'm trying to avoid replacing the caps. You can get to them, but as far as I remember not completely remove them without taking the speakers apart. Which I ain't gonna do 'cause it's too easy to screw up the ribbons or introduce a rattle. If you have to retension the ribbons you're in a world of hurt. So replacing the caps in-place is the way to go and I'm not really looking forward to that.
Eric Elliot nails it when he says it's easier to detect bad caps that are in other gear. One of the caps in my Threshold pre went south and it was obvious. Had that one recapped by a Threshold specialist.
one thing I would say is sometimes be careful when it comes to replacing capacitors. and I mean in the way that I had an older arcam amplifier that I had purchased out of the '80s. I just love the sound of it and I really enjoyed the quality I was getting from it with my speakers and it had never had the capacitors replaced. so a year and a half ago at a friend suggestion I took it to a guy who works on HiFi and for $150 he replaced all the capacitors that needed to be replaced and he did say some of them were off value and going bad. anyway when I got that thing home and hooked it up it sounded a lot different and not better to me. long story short I ended up selling the amplifier because I ended up just not enjoying the sound of it anymore.
This is exactly what I'm worried about happening to both my infinity rs-3B's and reference studio monitors. Not to mention messing them up. What do you think?
@@stevenneese2823 I would worry less about messing them up and more about messing up the sound. That said though it can be more detrimental to not replace the capacitors instead of replacing them. Now in speakers it's not as critical per se but in an amplifier if you have a bad capacitor that's going bad and leaking for example, it can leak out on to the main circuit board and damaged further components and it could hit a point where the amp is effectively destroyed, so obviously it's important to replace these capacitors.
I have learned however that there is such a thing as leaving well enough alone. Meaning if something's working well and there's no problems with it and you take off the lid and equally there's no problems with it that you can see, then don't mess with it. It's kind of like having a vintage car that's running great and just because someone told you that the engine needs to be pulled out and overhauled you decide to do it and afterward you have more problems than you did when you started.
I will add that every pair of vintage speakers that I've heard that have been recapped, I think they ended up sounding better.
Awesome that you helped your grandson get into soldering! Kudos to you
Learning to solder at seven years old ! That’s awesome ! I didn’t learn the shoulder till I was like 15 years old..
Basically, If your equipment is over 30 years old or so, (the approximate average *useful* lifespan of an electrolytic capacitor, depending on service use), and especially if the equipment has many larger value electrolytic capacitors in it, like amps, power supplies, and most older speakers generally do, then just get in there and test the caps with a good quality digital meter, (preferably when the caps are OUT of the circuit for best accuracy, even though there are some more expensive capacitance meters that say they can measure them while they are still IN the circuit, I still like to desolder them first, at least on one lead, before testing them, that way you *know* that nothing *else* in the circuit that they are connected in is affecting your readings of their value), and if any of them are out of tolerance of their marked capacitance value by anything more or less than about 25% of their marked value, then they *have* gone bad and need to be replaced ASAP, or you can run the risk of damaging your equipment or your tweeters in your speakers, etc!...
Capacitors only keep getting worse, and further and further away from their marked value over time, and equipment usually starts operating improperly, (or sometimes not at all), after the capacitors in it get "out of spec" by more than about 25% of their required and marked value, (sometimes even less than that), so if your equipment starts acting funny or not behaving or sounding like you know it should, then it's probably time to replace its capacitors! At least the electrolytic ones, as Paul mentioned!
To test amplifier caps run a full-range sweep through your system. If the caps are bad you’ll notice distortion in the higher registers. I found this by accident when testing a speaker build.
Thank you paul for the tips. Following this video, I ordered a complete set of caps, from Parts-Express. Thanks to the pandemic, I found time to finish this project, I had been putting off for years . I bought PE's best, 1% tolerance caps , and now my 35+ year Cerwin Vegas sound alive . KB.
I replaced my vintage loudspeakers' caps. At the beginning the sound improved a little bit. After playing it for couple hours it's getting better. After several days break-in the sound is better from the beginning. It's more musical, fresher, more dynamic & soundstage.
I wasn't the questioner but thank you Paul for making me believe I could recap old speakers myself. I'll now get another 20 years from my original wharfedale mk1's
If you have to ask... then the answer is yes. Caps fail... first it’ll mess up the sound; then it’ll leak and damage your equipment. There’s lots of good soldering videos on TH-cam; but making a long story short; get a temperature controlled soldering station (with a desoldering gun if you have more than a few to do; otherwise some solderwick will do); use the biggest tip that will fit in the space (bigger tip = better heat transfer); put a small amount of fresh solder on the tip to act as a heat bridge when desoldering; use plenty of no-clean flux; get some magnification (I spent the $$$$ and got a stereo microscope, but even just a simple desk magnifying glass helps a lot); and get some flush-cutters and needle-nose pliers. Oh, and it’s probably obvious but don’t use plumbing solder and flux - it’s corrosive. Get a good electronics grade solder and no-clean flux (leaded is easier to work with and makes better connections; just be sure to wash your hands afterwards... and it’s not an environmental issue because you’re never going to throw your gear away, right?).
Oh, and get some low-value or dead PCBs to practice on before attempting surgery on your fancy high-end gear!
Great advice.
Thanks!
My B&W 802 series 80 still going strong. 👍
Being one who owns some vintage gear, I learned that for amps and receivers it is fairly easy to tell when the caps have aged just by the change in sound. Caps in crossovers on speakers though are harder to tell. I don't have any vintage speakers anymore, but I would imagine the sure way to tell on those is with measurements.
Apogee....What a wonderful speaker....
Funny thing, but I've got a fair-sized collection of audio gear that's mostly around 40 years old and I haven't had to replace a single cap. Capacitor replacement seems to be a peculiarly American fixation. I ran this past an electronics tech friend - with a view to putting paid repair work his way, if needed - but he tells me that it's not unusual for even electrolytics to still be performing within tolerances if they haven't been overworked or stored badly.
Before the naysayers weigh in, my old ears are in pretty good shape (17Hz-17kHz) and yes, I do know what high-quality audio sounds like.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems appropriate.
It probably dosn't sound like it used when new. Electrolytic capacitors all age. This is not a georgraphical issue. Greetings from Germany - replace your caps! You will hear the difference.
@Fat Rat Oh....so you did buy those 15k DeVores and you've not been telling us. 👎
Ffs mate share the goodness....."So this is re-e--e-l"
Seems everything round here is Sunnyboys!
An obvious sign of failure is a leaking or bulging can. The big power supply filter caps seem to be less prone to failure.
@Fat Rat getting some good bargains...connections in the industry or just sales given the current circumstances?
Definitely gets to a stage where you're happy and that's all that matters. Too much arsing about round these parts.
Hi,@@matekochkoch ! I'm sure the caps have aged; they just haven't aged enough to depart from their specified tolerances. I've owned several items from new, or nearly-new, and they still comfortably outperform more recent equipment.
I can always tell when my caps have aged when the electrolyte spurts out the bottom and runs all over the circuit board.
De-soldering can be much more tricky than soldering since leads can be wrapped around lugs and you really have to fully remove the old solder to release them. Even de-soldering a PCB connection can be difficult. You can buy a simple manual "solder sucker" which is better than nothing but the best solution is a de-soldering station with a vacuum pump for through removal of the liquified solder.
well xovers are not on PCB usually so you can simply cut the wires/legs with pliers
Really enjoy all your videos, professional lessons, advice - Kind Regards- Matt
A lot of speakers, even some pricey ones, use crappy electrolytics in their crossovers. Replacing them with good quality film types will be worth the investment, even if the caps are not old and bad.
I've got Infinity RS4b's which I bought new in 1985. I've re-foamed the woofers but I haven't done anything with the caps. The speakers sound good to me but I've noticed that I have to turn the amp up more on the dial than I remember with the old amp I had before. The RMS is approximately the same between the amps. I have to turn the amp up about twice the level as the old amp.
I did change Caps and resistors on Dynaudio C1 Signature, big difference.
Great advice.
Capacitor replacement depends on the speaker. Some crossovers are very simple, but some are very complex with many capacitors that are selected and matched.
I recapped seventies Technics and changed the small transistors on the front end. Lazy dragging noisy sound was instantly transformed to happy rhythmic thumping. Didn't use any hoodoo audio voodoo caps either. RX30 series, FC and few others. Also changed the caps in my Sony 's to polys. This kind of a "fabric was lifted" off the tweeters experience.
Paper in oil caps a perfect for speakers, more so if you're running tube power amps, or some types of foil the mundorf silver and oil. Wiring two capacitors in parallel is always better approach replacing the one cap for two this is easy to find an unusual value as well, and the low poly film cap as well 0.1uF in parallel keep the voltage up to about 350V. Try and get them matched pair or 1% or lower
Really good video, thanks!
Interesting subject for me 🔍.tnx
I have a friend with an Audio Research SP3 preamp and it started humming so he gave it to me to fix for him. All the filter cap cans were open. I replaced them all with separate electrolytics and it worked fine. I checked the electrolytics in my Audio Research SP6 and all were bad but I didn't have a hum due to the 4.7 MFD Wonder Caps I have bypassing the 300 MFD electrolytics. I replaced them all but didn't use the most expensive caps but it does sound ok. I've had some slight random noises in one or both channels ever since I put them in. Not sure if its wonder caps going bad or what. Everytime I mess with it I get the noise to go away but when I put it together the noise comes back.
The large caps are not hard to remove and replace. It’s the smaller caps close to other small components that is tricky.
I bought my speakers in '81. I've replaced the woofers foam surrounds.
Guess I should have a peek at my crossovers and order some new caps...
Be aware that polys or other replacements to electrolytics can have a much greater physical size - building an external crossover box or adding a by-pass cap (parallel cap of high quality of maybe 100th the value) can be ways around this. I recommend Janzen as a very good value brand supplying both very high-end caps and also some real quality budget lines e.g. their 'cross caps' or their basic MKT range. If you have to go electrolytic, Mundorf Ecaps are good. The 'Raw' version is cheaper and smaller. The 'Plain' is a better construction though note the size is quite a bit bigger for the same value. Alcaps are another decent-ish electrolytic widely used by (certainly earlier) Kef in some quite upmarket speakers. Recently upgraded Kef 105/3s using MKTs where practical - Wow! Midrange detail and overall clarity in a different league.
I have mission 734i speakers that are stunning. They have replaced caps using Mundorfs. Beings speakers back to life!
I just put my instruments on them. If the ESR's are terrible they get replaced. On my vintage Wharfedale W (1960 to 1975) series speakers, I have found the Mundorf E-Cap NPE’s do a very good job of maintaining the speakers original voicing.
Great Advice yes all you would need to do is send in your crossover
Many thanks for a very helpful video , I have exactly this going on right now with a vintage pair of Wharfdale Linton XP2’s. I picked them up for less than $20 in a charity shop. I’ve tested the bass drivers which are not blown thankfully but they sound dreadful. A neighbour suggested the caps have probably dried out and you just confirmed it - greetings from England! I
I pick my 1971 whafedale dovedails 3 up from my local charity shop today £30 I'll just use my ears & hope they are ok,if not I'll just sell them on life's to short.
@@jasonemanuel9070 probably the wisest attitude. I spent a load of time messing around with the Lintons and even purchased a replacements bass driver off Ebay ..only for the speakers to end up unused sitting the garage ! I've since replaced them with a pair of NAD speakers which are incredible and like yours cost me £30 .
@@stevieG. Can't go wrong with nad,hope you end up loving them,I took a gamble on the dovetails but been listening all day & night now,they are incredible well pleased.
@@jasonemanuel9070 you got a result there, well done.
I really respect Paul for his genuine efforts on such a topic. He could have been telling people reasons to buy his own stuff and reasons to not dare to keep old stuff alive. How many other CEOs will be honest on such topic? I just restored my 20 year old Velodyne servo subwoofer with new caps and it was worth every penny.
Fat Rat Sure, I started very early soldering stuff. Actually my initial effort included a lot of desoldering components from old TVs and other electronics to build my own component selection in my early teens. Frankly I have worried a lot about lead and other toxins poisoning as I didn’t really consider the toxicity of electronics in my teenage years. But at least I didn’t eat it. Now I use lead free soldering and btw, I recently got my own SMT oven at home. I enjoy doing stuff in my own lab as sort of hobby. How about you and hobbies?
@Fat Rat, 😮
@Fat Rat I miss the moments where I could be in a mode of just listening but it stopped when I got my first iPhone and Steve Jobs reprogrammed my brain to not allow to run one task at a time. Music while working, shopping, eating (need less of this) and exercising (and more of this) sort of is almost mandatory to me. I do remember the moments where I sat down and listened to tiny details using my Stax electrostatics with closed eyes for hours...perhaps our brains get sort of used to work in multi task mode and it's not just because we decide it as an action. Nowadays I wouldn't be able to complete just one album of music without my phone or computer beeping one or more times due to some incoming message or e-mail. Yes, I could just turn it off or put it in another room, but then my mind will have this underlying awareness that I'm "disconnected" from an eco-system of people. Not sure if this is all good or bad. @Fat Rat, I imagine you live as some audiophile Crocodile Dundee away from the stress of urban Australia and in some peaceful outback town.
@Fat Rat I must admit my career is bound in being on the forefront of technology and there is no easy escape from the madness. My hobby is also my career. If I didn't enjoy technology I probably could get my weekends to be all about climbing mountains and such things. Your JAMO speaker was R&D'ed lead by someone I worked with for many years btw. I'm originally from Denmark where speaker development is sort of in the genes of people. In our kitchen here in California we have a pair of JBL 8" 2-way in-wall speakers above those eye-level cupboards. For a kitchen, I'm quite impressed with the musicality of these speakers and they have an excellent wife appeal by being almost invisible, but I'm sure those Jamos are better sounding.
Sold Apogees once back in the Audio Gallery days but I liked the smaller Calipers the most.
Heard a lot of good things about the Calipers. And the Stages I always kinda wanted to at least hear the Studio Grands. I was speaking with Brian Cheney of VPMS about building a custom pair of stands/subwoofers for my Duettas but failed to pursue it. I really wish I had, as that was shortly before Brian died and I can't really think of anyone else who would take on such a project at a price affordable to mortals,
Thanks very much, Paul!
Sounds like "It's about that time" for my speakers, as well.
Then, the amp... : P
You will need to do a bit of research as to what brand of elco to put in your amp or risk to make it worse. In any case stay away from Chinese parts.
@@hugobloemers4425
Thanks!
Another commenter suggested replacing only electrolytic caps?
I had to replace 16 caps in my 70's era mirrored Dahlquist DQ10's. Halfway through the job. Got Jantzen caps for my Quart Reference towers . . . recapped and refoamed my AR28s's . . . . it took 60 caps to restore my Harman/Kardon Citation 5.1 (Steve Mantz). Should have it all done by the end of April.
I know because up until 5 years ago I never felt cold knees, but now in winter those caps keep reminding me I'm in my fifth decade on Earth.
I am moving along to my 7th decade and with each day I am reminded as you are and with each passing day I seem to be reminded more.
Pauls right nobody wants to work on them , I found someone to restore my perfectly working Sansui G-8000 and they wanted 2k for labor , I work so much i haven't had the time,
until this cov19 got me layed off so now its all re-capped and sounds amazing got it for 1400.00 and spent about 100.00 in caps best 1500.00 amp i ever had for the price smooth warmth ! With Scale !
Wtf, what a ripoff. How many caps were in that thing?
Sorry to hear you got laid off! I hope you fall into the category of making more on unemployment with the extra $600 a week. I'm usually against this system of making people more money than they were making before they were laid off but for some reason, I feel the opposite with you!🤔🤗😇 And that's the biggest compliment I can give! Now get that 580 review up already🤓😝
@@xanderguldie Caps, at least in the U.S. are not inexpensive, at least if your are using good caps like Solen. They start at about $5 each for the small values, and go up from there. Even a 47 micro Farad Solen runs over $20.
2K for a restauration by a professional is not too much. 2K for a repair by an amateur is way too much.
@@doowopper1951 I was talking about the labour, wich was $2000. So the caps weren't even included. Still those caps are also pretty expensive. Over here they are pretty affordable. Lots of good stuff from Germany.
What about caps in old amps? I have a Sharp Optonica SM1616 from, I believe, the late 70s. Everything looks original inside.
Sounds great to my ears, and I don't have audiophile speakers anyway just some Bang & Olufsen Cx100 which are from the mid 80s. Would it be worth it to replace the caps just to breathe some new life into it?
I have a capacitor meter good to 1%, always testing my film caps to match channels and I’ve never seen a value change even after years. Electrolytic’s however get leaky and change their capacitance and voltage ratings. It’s why old amps blow their fuse when turned on. A common speaker upgrade is replacing electrolytic with film caps that will alter the frequency response due to their lower series resistance. Upgrading can be a mixed bag, good and bad. Be prepared to tweak.
Your videos are great. Really, I wish we were neighbors and I had something as informative to offer you. Great stuff.
I replaced the caps in a pair of Realistic Minimus-7 speakers as a practice and to see if it really made that much of a difference. These things were over 30 years old and it made a HUGE difference. I didn't know if just replacing only the caps was the thing to do, so thanks to Paul for this video. I now plan to replace the caps on my 30 year old Paradigm Export Monitors. Can anyone recommend an appropriate brand and type? I usually buy from Parts Express.
www.partsconnexion.com/capacitors-ele-mundorf-e-cap-ac-series.html
just replace the electrolytic caps
www.partsconnexion.com/jantzen-elko-cap.html
Get yourself an LCR meter to test the impedance of the capacitors and their ESR along with capacitance of course to make sure they're still up to spec and if not, you can easily replace them like Paul said!
Do you need to desolder the capacitor to measure it?
@@cliz305 Yes as it might be affected by other components connected to it. It's always advisable to do so. Some meter can read ESR in circuit but I would always recommend you remove it from the board prior to testing the component.
I replaced all the caps in my speaker crossovers even though they measured ok for value and ESR, the speaker units are 42 years old! I built new cabinets for them!
Luckily, the Rubycon Black Gate capacitors in my system are still ok given that the company who built them closed back in 1995. Other vintage gear that I've modded from the mid 1990s with military grade paper-in-oil caps are still ok too probably because I've transfered them to a larger enclosure and placed the heat generating parts - like tubes, transistors in heatsinks arrays and the main power supply transformer - as far away from the electrolytics and paper-in-oil caps.
I need to replace my 1uf electrolytic cap, can I replace it with a same value 1uf polypropelyne cap or do I need to go above 1uf or below 1uf in size??
I had bipolar electrolytic caps in my speakers.
They preferred happy music one minute, then sad music the next.
Madisound is also a great source, but you know what, so are Mouser, Newark, and Digi-Key. Long lasting film capacitors are great, and I use them when budget and space are not limiting me to electrolytics, but they don't have to be Mundorf or Clarity: WIMA, Vishay, and Cornell Dubilier make very nice ones as well. Much better to spend $20 on a couple of 22 uF WIMAs and replace that failing cap now than wait around to drop (an obscene) $200 on the same value set of Mundorfs down the road for a 0.001% improvement in sound. Paul forgot to mention that you want to make sure the uF rating is the same as the cap you are replacing, and you will typically want a voltage rating that is the same or a bit higher.
Weird. I just linked an article in another thread here from Digikey on supercapacitors. 😁
www.digikey.ro/Site/Global/Layouts/DownloadPdf.ashx?pdfUrl=0EAE246075A94268BAEFC45FBF6AB088
@@kalijasin Interesting... As the sheet says they must be more for mobile or digital devices as 5.5V, 1000uF caps are unusual for non-class D, but that's a good find!
@terrywho22, and car audio, speaker with amp, portable audio, audio with usb.
@terrywho22, definitely 👍
@@kalijasin Oh yeah, car audio... That's kind of a big market!
My dad's L100's I inherited my mom bought them for his birthday new in 72-73 and they're in good shape but just sound dead and flat now to me... I don't know if it's from listening to modern speakers or it's they don't sing through my A/v receiver? They don't seem sound rich like I remember back in the day... so I've wondered if it is the caps after seeing videos about caps degrading.
hey Paul , Love all your ,comments , But just like with the sound of speakers ". beauty is in the eye (or ears) of the beholder" , sound is a love of the listener , if it sounds great to you , don't mess it up . just enjoy . if caps go bad will your ears will tell you , or like me at 65 you probably will not notice the difference in the highs . I'm talking two way systems that is . My ears test 45-7000 khz , I did sound test online . Then did the wife , she tested 100 to 14000 khz . So the speakers are not bad after 20 years . If I recap I don't think I'll notice ,what do you say Paul ? Or am I all wrong where the power is just not getting threw and it will still make a difference ?
hi Paul hope you'll be fine, my question is that is there any difference in sound quality by using troidal transformer compare to E I core transformer?
No.
@@MrsZambezi OK Thanks
The best way to measure a speaker outside is to turn it upside down and place it on a large concrete ground plain and lay the mic on axis 1 metre away
I had a ballast type resistor go bad - not reading anything on the multi meter. What prompted me to the cross over was the loud speaker horn was not working but checked out ok after diaphram inspectiion etc. Although this maybe rare i would not exclude them entierly.
Surely a better answer would be to buy a suitable quality ESR meter and test each capacitor individually rather than simply replacing each willy-nilly? For less than US$75-100, you can find something that will do the job. Heck, a PEAK brand ESR meter can be had for less than about US$150 ish if you want a top brand. Once purchased that meter will last a lifetime and allow checking of equipment every few years or so for reassurance everything is running optimally.
My old Grundig console needs a cap job. The power amp is starting to "fart" or run out of power at the higher volumes. The capacity or instant ability to provide power to the demands of the power amp is compromised over time. Its an old tube set so it should be easy.
The Duetta Sigs use decent quality Sprague film caps which should still be in good condition.You could upgrade these with better film caps but not really necessary from an aging point of view.I don`t have to worry about aging crossover caps because my Duetta Sigs are actively driven fortunately.
What are you using for an active crossover? DAX or ??
@@chrisglass19 The active filter is a Diy kit produced by a local kit supplier called Sage,sadly no longer in business.I was not impressed by the DAX after seeing a schematic of the circuitry which included 6 op amps in series for each leg of the crossover.The Sage crossover only uses a 3 transistor input buffer and output buffer working in feedback free differential class A with high performance discrete class A current and voltage regulation.In conjunction with high performance passive parts,Vishay foil resistors,Relcap foil polystyrene caps and Rubycon Blackgate electrolytics the sound is very transparent;better than the DAX.
How do you know if your caps have aged? My dentist tells me.
All I can say is I was repairing my pots in my IRS IIIa's this winter and broke a cap wire off in one of the 4 speakers. So I replace just the cap and repeated it in the speaker pair to make them match. They now sound different then the other set I have sitting right beside them. Couldn't get the original TI cap so I got one with the same exact specs but it's not the same. Bottom line is when it comes to audio equipment I have a 3 B's rule, if they are not bulging, burning or bleeding they are staying the way they are.
Ouch those are film caps you broke no wonder you don't like the sound. The pair of grey miniature soda can size are the electrolytic caps. They should definitely be replaced. A good film cap that might be as good as your old ones if you want to try . www.partsconnexion.com/jantzen-mkt-cap.html . Bennic films are not my favorite that's for sure.
Greetings Paul. Love your channel thus far. I have a pair of Jbl 4312s and cannot wait to replace the caps. Cosmetically they're in great shape just a little dull in the 2k- 5k section. I'm pretty decent at handling the iron, so I'm confident this project should turn out well.🔉
Paul is spot on with replacing caps in any spkr crossover or electronic (Audio) devices. Heat plays a major factor in shortening the life span of a cap and time as well. Internally the electrolyte fluids or paste tend to dry up within 10 to 15 years in normal room temps as long as they are in use. If you read the Manufactures shelf life expectancy of Electrolyte caps it is usually 2 yrs and then they start to degrade. If in use most average caps start to degrade after a 1000 hrs.
Sometimes spending more on Boutique electrolyte caps, can result in longer life expectancy 16000 hrs or more in some cases, before they start to degrade. Mind you this is strictly for Electrolyte, Film caps can last 50 to 100 years depending on temps.
How do you explain my Hitachi Oscilloscope from around 1975 that still works perfectly ?
My bad Audio devices sound quality degrades.
Service life of electrolytics, all other things kept equal, is highly dependent on size. Small parts dry out much faster. I have some large 35V 10000uF capacitors in a power supply that I designed and built back in my college days (1970's). They're still in good condition, perhaps due partly to the fact that they are considerably bulkier than their modern replacements would be.
Operating temperature is also quite important. Keeping temperature down greatly extends life.
Today, much of consumer electronics employs miniaturized surface-mount electrolytics, and they are notorious for short service life. In Japanese culture, equipment like that is often replaced after two years, if not sooner, so the manufacturers make no attempt at choosing parts to last longer.
@@marianneoelund2940 50 yr old power cap vs Modern day fresh cap sound quality. 50 yr cap maybe hear 2 to 4 instruments with the background instruments fighting with each other creating a smorgasborg. Is it a cello or violinist fighting for front row center, and maybe a couple vocalists , which is fine for most people. Fresh cap on the other hand 10+ instruments and 10+ vocalists. Now where getting into the audiophile world. Mind you Orchestral music is one way of hearing all those wonderful instruments and vocalists and testing your system. I agree small caps dry out faster than big size caps with more fluid.
@@jp-rj7yq
You might find this interesting:
www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/lifetime/
Electrolytic cap "spec life" may sound like a low figure, e.g. only 2000 hours, but that's under severe operating conditions, with temperature close to the device max rating. The predicted service life increases greatly under more moderate conditions. For example, a 105C rated electrolytic with a spec life of 2000 hours, but operated below 45C and only 20% of rated current has a predicted service life of at least 130000 hours or 15 years. Increase the operating temperature to 55C and the life drops to 64000 hours.
The aging effect of electrolytics is primarily to increase ESR. In a speaker crossover, that reduces the tweeter drive efficiency and allows unwanted higher frequencies to reach the midrange (and woofer, if it has a 2nd-order filter). This is undesirable because you don't want drivers to be interfering with each other in the upper driver's range. But the use of film caps, which is often practical for the midrange, will avoid the issue.
I recently took a chance and bought a pre enjoyed pair of floor standers. Gosh they're beautiful but they sounded awful. So I whipped out the crossovers and replaced the electrolytics with LOW ESR Panasonic's. I also cleaned up the bus bars that connect the two PCB's together. After a fair few hours of running in they're amazing. I bet the guy who sold them to me thought they'd passed their best. Far from it!
Biggest problem I have with old speakers is crumbling woofer surrounds. The next biggest problem is finding the time to install the surround repair kits.
@@marianneoelund2940 I got lucky with these speakers, they arrived in their original packaging. I think they'd been in storage. The surrounds are in excellent condition. But I understand where you're coming from. I had to replace the surround on my Paradigm sub about 2 years ago. It was a well spent Sunday afternoon. Removing the old glue wasn't too difficult, just time consuming. Paradigm wanted £250 just to look at it. If I recall I paid £2.98 which, included delivery for a gasket from a well known auction site. I've not had any issues with it since.
I purchased a Zenith console radio and the plastic insulated wires are mostly bare as you can shake off the dried and cracked insulation, however all of the cloth type insulation is perfect. I thought about cutting on end of now mostly bare wires and slipping shrink tubing on it then solder it back together rather than replacing each wire. What do you think?
"one end" not "on end"
Could someone please point out an Android app that generates the white noise needed to plug into your amp and shows the resulting audio spectrum on the phone.
Paul mentions the principal of this useful test but I haven't found an app yet !
Capacitor life depends on temperature. Capacitors in a power amplifier (or integrated amplifier) may dry quickly, but those in passive speakers dry in just 25 years?
The reason I build my own amplifier is because I can use polypropylene capacitors in my power supplies, especially in the 1000Volt B+ I use for my 833A SET. They are bigger than electrolytic, but I don't have to worry about the poor life expectancy of electrolytics.
Totally agree, if you have 30 year old caps you might as well replace them.
The good news is that you will only pay for the parts and not the profit margin stacking.
I just bought a pair of Magnat All Ribbon 5 on E-bay because I really liked them back in the 80's when they where new. (Sh** happens when you are at home on E.bay :D for days on end) But (not only) back in those days cross over networks where crap. So I will not only replace the caps with new ones from Mundorf but also the coils with Mundorf coils. Though the coils will be fine they are much too small, i.e. they will have a high resistivity/low Q value, not referring to the inductance. If you want to replace the coils, you need and LRC meter to measure the old ones. They cost about $40,- (or Euros) on E.bay which you can basically write off on the cost of modding a single pair of speakers. I bought the speakers for 120 euro and expect to spend about double of that on caps, coils, binding posts which will add up to less than 200 per speaker. My expectation is that they will punch way above that price point.
It's certainly worthwhile to replace old iron-core inductors with air-core types that have much heavier gauge wire. You might be shocked at the fine wire gauge that OEM crossover inductors are often wound with.
@@marianneoelund2940 They have air core inductors but they are quite small with too thin wires and because there are no resisters in the network (and I have no means of changing the schematics) my premise is that that the Ri is a bottleneck.
For the record, Apogees can be serviced by either Bill Thalmann (in Virginia) or Rich Muray (in Nevada). Both are authorized to do complete rebuilds of Apogees by Graham Keet (or Graz), the man who was able to partially revived Apogee after it was abandoned by ADS (which had purchased the company from Jason Bloom in the mid-1990s). Graz produces machine cut OEM ribbons that outperform the originals (which were hand-cut). He recently introduced a new flagship Apogee, the Apogee Diva Advance 9.
I'm certainly aware of Graz and the US based Apogee service. But there's no chance whatsoever I'd ship those without having custom shipping crates built,
@@chrisglass19 Craters and Freighters built my boxes when I had to put my Duetta Sigs into storage. They double-boxed them, in fact, so that they couldn't be moved except as a single unit and with great care. It cost me $250 for the service 17 years ago - but I still have the individual speaker boxes and styrofoam fillers in a closet. Getting them boxed today would probably cost you around $500 - but if you ever plan on moving them, you'll want to spend that money anyway.
@@HPLeft Thanks for the suggestion of Craters and Freighters. The last such company I used left me disappointed. I should probably get those boxes built before I need them. The Sigs are not perfect, but they do so many things well and their flaws are innocuous. I sometimes joke that they are responsible for curing me of being an audiophile. I simply lost interest in finding "the holy grail" after living with them.
@@chrisglass19 BTW, were you a member of the Apogee Acoustics Users Group back in the day? If so, this is Matt, the former moderator.
@@HPLeft Hi Matt! I was a lurker (nothing of use to contribute) but found that group very informative. IIRC I was trying to purchase a DAX 3 but was counseled to look elsewhere, which led me to purchase a Marchand XM-44 crossover. Why Marchand? Someone on the user's group posted "ideal" crossover points and slopes for the Duetta Sigs and Phil Marchand said he could build me "personality" cards for the XM-44 to those specifications. It was probably ill-advised of me to jump in like that without more evidence, but I was incredibly happy with the results. One of these days I'll like to get another pair of stereo amps and put the XM-44 back in.
When one or both of your KT88's red plate, check the coupling caps (as well as the cathode resistor(s). There's other stuff to check too, but this is the comments section not the repairs section. :-)
It's great to see a post from someone who knows what he's talking about! To the common reader, you'll know when your cathode resistors fail. But try not to panic. Just switch the thing off and send it to one of us! 😎
All you audio guys are funny, you all have these insane setups in the most awful rooms. 1st rule in studio...sort your room out ...then speakers.
I mean this in a genuine way,but think of it this way, given the age & given the mere fact that you are even asking...???? There you go & soldering is a bit of an art form,but with a bit of practice,you'll suss it,better yet,grab an old broken piece of junk,pull out the PCB & do some practice,good luck 😁
I run yamaha , iv found after a year of turning on my system it sounds like its scratching .bozak l.s. 400 speakers with yamaha rx-v620 amp .maybe my ears or the speakers. Haven't tested yet but still learning.
Hoping I can rework the amp because the speakers are ,well old and hard to rework .
Tell me what soldering iron to buy
With old Apogees it's not so much the crossover that needs attention, it's the panel tensioning system. The panel was clamped on the sides, and then the clamping mechanism was pulled outwards using springs to keep the panel taught. Over time, the panel stretches to the point where the clamp can no longer keep it tight. Parts for older Apogees including new panels are available from Graeme Keet in Australia. www.apogeeacoustics.com/index.htm
Yeah, tensioning the panels is another task I've been dreading. Thanks for the comment.
How do you know when tubes needs to be replaced on a tube amplifier??
When they go into a store and forget why they're in there, that's a pretty good sign.
Great call Paul!
All please keep in mind that caps have different sonic signatures.
Some make a huge difference on a tweeter so read thru detailed reviews first.
Buy 25usd solder gun and learn how to solder , have fun there are plenty of tutorials on you tube.....than make your speakers play like never before.
Unfortunately 25yrs old tweeter may have dried out as well so..... Do not wait 25 yrs , do it with new speakers😂 Even 5Kusd speakers use 3usd poly caps , once replaced with thru high end audio only designed cap for say 30usd or more it will blow you away how awesome these speakers will sound..... Check out Danny at GR research if you want to got few steps further... Have fun!
Caps do not have different sonic signatures, whatever that is!
@@MrsZambezi You just have no clue that all, try 3 different caps in one key location and than we can talk...
Nichicon KZ, Elna Cerafine, AudioNoteKasei.... All three will have differnt sonic signature heard right away clearly different ....
Another tip before you dig into your cross over, when soldering you need to use rosin core solder. I had a customer who went to the hardware store and used acid core solder for plumbing = ruined the entire circuit board ! 60/40 rosin core for any electrical work.
Ouch!. Yes total newbies probably should find a friend who knows how to de-solder/solder electronic circuit connections.
should be using special silver containing solder for electronic equipment ("silver solder")
Pricey but worth it. High silver content in a solder flows well and should be used for all electronic applications like circuit boards and wire terminations. (approximately 4% silver)
Sorry but the idea of measuring freq response with a phone app will not tell you about your crossover caps! Just using your ears will do a better job. Degraded caps will typically raise or lower the frequency that the tweeter is rolling off, thus damaging the sound and phase response in the critical midrange. Paul's correct that they should be changed, but doing so can go from very easy, to REALLY challenging, depending on the speaker design. I've done many where the parts were epoxied down, and had to be cut and scraped off the board. Not trying to discourage anyone, but it can be a puzzle. Also reading the values printed on some old caps can be tough too. I've done many mods to my old B&W 801-S2's, (very complex crossover!) and they've been greatly improved over the years.
You'll hear it .
Good question
There’s an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed. I combed through the comments and there are a LOT of comments but none mentioned the elephant.. and I was kind of busy while watching the vid but I don’t remember any mention of the large gray mammal there either. Enough preamble. If you are replacing non-polarized (no symbols on the casing showing any positive negative indications) capacitors then just melt those those babies out put and throw the new one in and you’re done. If you’re replacing POLARIZED capacitors then you have to make sure you locate the plus and or minus sign on the casing and install accordingly. If you find a black stripe on one side that will almost always be the negative side and one of the two legs (wires) will be closest to the negative indicator and will be the negative leg. And visa versa. On the PCB board there will usually be a circle where the cap is installed and half that circle will be colored in, usually black and will have one hole for the NEGATIVE leg of the cap. And the other side won’t be colored in but will have a hole for the positive leg. And BOOM, you’re done. If you put them in the wrong direction then BOOM they can and will explode and obviously, the larger the cap, the bigger the boom (and associated fire and electrocution etc..)
Let me qualify that I am not an electrician and that just about everything I’ve learned has been by first doing it the wrong way and suffering the consequences. That approach definitely makes the lesson stick, and burn, and bleed…etc. here’s another great way to learn these things and that is to have someone else do all the dumb work for you (don’t thank me, I’m glad to be of service). If you are qualified electrician reading this and you run across bad info, then please correct me. It just seems to me that if people are being encouraged to solder for the first time then there’s no way they are going to know about the positive, negative exploding thing. Have a nice day 😊
The Apogee Scintilla's and the Full Range being particularly bad. In fact the full range had a mid range driver that went down to 0.14 ohms I mean that's just silly. However the person writing in those speakers have a more reasonable nominal load of 4 ohms.. Apogees make Maggies sound second class or they used to I haven't heard any of the new lot. I'm looking for a pair of Apogees funnily as I heard a pair driven by some Kronzilla amps and it was AWESOME!!!
Indeed! I've been using various Adcoms over the years to drive my Duettas, and they seem perfectly happy with them. Nelson Pass designed certain Adcoms (notably the very first GFA-555, and the original 5800 but not the 5802), but Adcom invariably strayed from the Pass design when "improving them". I used to buy every 1st gen -555 I ran across. My home theater setup has the Duetta sigs as the main speakers, an Apogee LCR for center, and then ribbon monitors for the sides and rear.
I attempted to replace the caps in my Infinity RS 3b speakers but after spending three days trying to find the same values as what was originally in them I just gave up. It seemed to me that nobody had replacement capacitors of the same values. I sold the speakers because audio paranoia had set in and I just couldn’t take the stress.
I have some 36 year old filter caps, and that amp still sounds like it did after burn in. I have some 30 year old speakers that still have the original caps too. They still sound the same as new. But I know time is ticking and nothing lasts forever, so I share his "audio paranoia". 😅
I have a pair of Threshold SA1 monoblocks made in 1987. I hear Krrrr krrr sound from both focal 1038 speakers and I have been advised to change all 8 caps in them. Will do after lockdown is lifted in India.
I want your amps! :-)
@@chrisglass19 You have to visit India then but please do so when the lockdown is lifted.😀
Paul , to hell with parts exspress, I only trust and buy from Madisound speakers in Madison Wisconsin, they only deal in high end sprakers components and crossover parts . They are full of knowledge instead of full of sheeeeeiit like P. E.
Noia ?!!? how do i know if i need to change a pair of noias?
Nuances don't show in a spectrum analyser and that is what matters because the possible lost of capabilities is very gradual.
Isn't it possible that some capacitors are hand selected ones?
A 100 micro farad labeled capacitor does not have 100 micro farad capacitance. It could often be 10% off. More expensive capacitors, 5%.
An error of 10% or 5% does not matter much in power supply filter circuit, but it could matter in EQ circuit or crossover circuit.
Good deal. However elecrolitic Capacitors also age in function of temperature. In a cross over there are not components that heat up and radiate heat to the capacitors like "inside an amplifier" Worst yet an amplifier with tubes. So inside of a speaker caps should last much longer than in other applications, also caps have a termal rating stamped right on it. My comment
They will also dry out and a Mundorf cap does not cost the earth so why not mod your speakers even if the caps are still good. That is actually a real bang for your buck.
I have an old Hitachi Oscilloscope made around 1975 and it works perfect. Yet many people would say I should replace the caps
Love this guy
I would argue that if you're really an audiophile, then you know how to work on your equipment. The biggest issue I have with audiophiles is their tech illiteracy which translates to bad or outright wrong advice that is said with confidence and determination. Soldering is really easy if you have a good iron. You can even buy training kits on Aliexpress for a few bucks to learn how to solder anything from big caps to small surface mount components. Furthermore, once you know how to do it you'll spend less money and time getting old gear repaired. I've repaired a lot of stuff that has no manual and was going to a landfill despite being perfectly fine just because nobody knew how to work on them anymore. It's kinda sad
How do you know if it even safe to turn on a 30+ year old amp, without changing caps, so you don’t do damage if they crap-out?
Build a dim bulb tester. Save your amp. Plans all over TH-cam.
I have 55 year old speakers that I dont know if they have replaced.
Any good source for caps in europe (greece) that will not steal me ?
Get help from a friend who is self employed or has a company and then go on Farnell.com
@@hugobloemers4425 interesting thank you but i would like to make purchases without credit card can i go to a local electronics shop (when this thing hopefully ends) and buy the same quality capacitors?
www.hificollective.co.uk/
www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_bipolar.html
www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-premium-elko-smooth-capacitors.html