you are not pishifat :( oh wait also this vid is fucking good, especially 2:31 onwards teaching mid-map or right at the beginning is everything new combo signaling is one of the best teaching / signaling tools an odd placed new combo is a warning sign like "hey be prepared for anything right now"
This was a very nice video and it also gave a good explaination on gimmicks, more specifically on how to implement them in a map the proper way. I will definitely be using this video a lot when modding poorly gimmicked maps (as I have been with most of your videos lolz)
awesome video as always, I'm learning so much about mapping with your advices. could you please explain hitsounds? (such as how complex the map's hitsounds needs to be for the rank criteria, and the obligation of custom sounds)
Hellooo Therrre, love your maps and videos (even though I am not a mapper myself). So I'm very curious, past the generic Insane/Hard/Normal/Easy how you choose CS and AR? I notice your mapsets have varying CS and AR, and cannot find the true meaning behind it. Sometimes you'll use a lower AR (8.7 or something), CS3, CS5.1, etc etc. I'm curious if this is a feeling or if you have a real reason for it. I could kind of see what you meant in your Gimmicks video, but I'm curious as for your reasoning. If you have another video describing the video that I haven't seen, feel free to link me to that. Thanks!!!
I'll sum this up briefly; pishi might explain it better though. AR is determined by how fast the map is (slider velocity, bpm, that kind of stuff) CS is used to determine how precise your aim should be while playing. (4 is usually the standard for 4*+).
Yet there are times where lower AR is used when the map is higher BPM and low CS is used when aim needs to be somewhat precise. Take Pishi's Extra diff in Sleeping with Sirens for example. But yeah, I agree with what you said for generically mapped maps.
Ryan Chanak I think there is a guideline (or something) where there is the exact ar cs etc. for each difficulty. edit: i just reread your comment, i think its all about mappers feeling about the song or either mappers preference, i usually pick lower circle size on low bpm songs and higher circle sizes on high bpm edit 2: cs is circle size which is self-explanatory ar is approach rate that circle thing that goes closer to the circle before you click the circle hp is also known as drain this is also self-explanatory od is the overall difficulty of the map
the section about gimmick introduction reminds me of how people talk about game design in dark souls. introducing elements before putting them in context
4:04 the main element that helps the player predict that it's a 1/4 slider isn't combo color or spacing or white ticks, but the (1) hitcircle that comes after it; more precisely, how quickly it's coming. the player can see he's meant to hit it very soon, so the player intuits that slider preceding it must end even sooner. same with 4:54. it's the following sliders tha thelps the player predict the increase in slider velocity. charles' video isn't so relevant anymore because that particular pattern has been used so much that it's pretty much established as canon in the mapper's toolbox. i've played it so much and seen it in so many maps that' i can't consider it a "gimmick" anymore. it's just an ordinary pattern, albeit a slightly more difficult one to play, but an ordinary one nonetheless. as long as the pattern fits the sound then there's no problem, even if the sound only occurs in a "breakdown" section halfway through the map. charles' video still applies for more unorthodox patterns, but for that specific pattern it doesn't apply anymore in my opinion. there's also the idea of a target audience. after having encountered these patterns countless times, i can play them pretty well. those maps that throw in those 1-2 patterns willy-nilly are probably directed at players who can play them on demand, like me. and there are many more players who can play those patterns than there were 2 years ago, when charles uploaded his video. it's no longer a pattern that requires building a map around.
Informative as always. I just wanted to make a small request for future videos though - it would be nice if you could show all the examples with no mods on, like hidden.
Do combo colors and slider shapes really help people that much? I mean, sure, if there was no music it would be one thing. I can say with relative certainty that I would have subconsciously predicted the slider length based purely on the music long before I noticed it was a red curved slider etc. Like if we are talking from a purely theoretical game design standpoint then yes, everything you said is true. I just feel like at some point we are using game design principles as the end all be all explanation. God knows you don't look at a byfar slider out of the context of the song/editor and say, hey, that spaghetti looking slider couldn't be anything but a 3/4 extended slider. You know it's a 3/4 extended slider when playing the map because the song follows a predictable structure and byfar's mapping does a decent job of following a similar structure. -------------Somewhat Unrelated Opinion-------------- I personally see Charles' point being more about using a consistent design paradigm than anything else. Establishing a solid framework where the gimmick is not unexpected being the more important takeaway than trying to hold the player's hand every step of the way. That is, I think you are focusing too much on the idea of introducing gimmicks. The issue is that large scale structure of a lot of music rarely provides a good framework to employ Kishōtenketsu-style of introducing gimmicks in the same way that you can when designing levels for games like Super Mario 3D World. With that said, I believe the issue you have with the map you showed, and the one that Charles had when he made that original video, was that the gimmick defies the expectations created by the rest of the map. While you did touch on this briefly, I believe this to be the larger issue at hand and applies to both types of difficulty spikes mentioned in this video.
I'm in the process of making my first map. An idea came to mind and i wanna know if people use the instrumental version of a song then changing it back to the original version when they finish the map
Hey pishi, love your videos: I would really like a video where you talk about controversial maps like notch hell or tsubaki from hw. Continue making great videos!
Things like this are all over 3* maps. Songs that have the exact same repeated section as at the very start of the song but near the end, that's far more difficult, or which arbitrarily put a slider end a quarter beat from a slider start or a circle half a screen away, while every previous jump of that size on the map was at least a half a beat, in a fucking 3*, and it's off-putting. When difficulty spikes with natural BPM changes, it feels normal because your sense of rhythm keeps up with the change, it would be jarring to feel the song double in BPM but for circles to come in every 2 beats instead of every beat or on half beats, or for sliders to last for 2-3 beats instead of 1. It feels like some large percentage of 3* maps ranked within the last 5 or so years have weirdly placed objects like this for no reason though, they don't really reflect the song, they don't serve to highlight an important note, they seem to exist solely near the end of the song to try and break FCs and get people to replay the map, at least I can't think of another reason for it. There was a 3.8* map I was playing for fun just yesterday that did all of its high intensity stuff in a clockwise circle for 4 minutes, then in the last 30 seconds decided to do a sharp curve into a counter clockwise circle followed by some awkward obtuse jumps, and it was the same section of music. I expect arbitrary changes in 4* and 5* but to see a 3.8* at the end of the map intentionally break convention to screw with people really annoys me, that's supposed to be the normie difficulty, not the "let's troll the player" difficulty.
3:20 this is where reading comes in. if you focus on the rythm itself you wont ever get a good player. you should be able to play maps without music at all, just focussing on approach circles and not the music. there is just too much you need to consider when focussing on music. tbh who cares about combo color? i use a skin with a single color and i dont think im the only one here lol so yea thank you for explaining mapping in osu but it isnt interesting to us since we are mostly players and not mappers.
yeah but some people still play the game as a rhythm game... ikr anyways i guess reading is important too but on a 3* map no one really expects that stuff so they don't fully pay attention.
Can you make a video about seeing other game modes quality of maping? Because i never saw someone in the entire world making one good video about how to map in osu!mania, catch the beat or taiko. I don't know if you can map it properly, because you always make videos about osu standart, but would be smart to see how to map in other kinds of game modes. Or at least differentiate a good map from a bad map.
im at 5k pp and never in life did I connect slider shapes or colors to their speeds o_o I think most players are in the same boat You have to be a crazy mapper to even think of something like that We just memorize them or try really hard to listen to the rhythm. Relying on reflexes
I ACE I I think you are talking about the score meter. blue = 300, green = 100, orange = 50. You can activate it in the options, search for "score meter"
i don't think a normal player even thinks in the terms of 1/4th 1/8th 1/2 full beat or whatever. I didn't encounter that in my 500h of playtime, until I started trying to map. Only people in music theory even heard of things like this, all my friends are completely oblivious, like me as well. (I asked them) A player doesn't play and think "hmm I guess it would make sense if this object was a 1/4th?" You just look at the approach circles and try to execute it, hit them in the right order fast enough I guarantee you if you take most players and set their music volume to 0%, their play will not deteriorate that much. Maybe acc will drop by a few percent, that's it You follow the rhythm, and in most maps you don't even need the background music for it
"unavoidable difficulty spikes." The word your looking for is pacing: th-cam.com/video/5LScL4CWe5E/w-d-xo.html, and I do believe there's more to talk about. For instance, I don't play this map: osu.ppy.sh/b/912431&m=0 because the beginning of the kiai section is such a let down. The pacing of the map does not reflect the song's pacing because the build-up was stronger than the thing it was building up to.
ye all cool everything that you've said is logical and makes a point still, that camellia map at the end that you've showcased is annoying af and nobody wants that shit yes its perfectly fine from a mappers perspective, I agree on that but its still frustrating to play for obvious reasons
nothing is bad or unright about that map its just that part with increased difficulty near the end is annoying af to play thats all that I wanted to point out
To be honest, it looks like this video covers gimmicks just as much if not more than your gimmicks video. Particularly how to implement them (using the basics of game design, namely 'hidden' tutorials) Most of the video is about that, rather than difficulty spikes, though that does introduce it, and wrap it up neatly.
This video misses the entire point of a player talking about difficulty spikes. Gimmick random elements are not "official difficulty" (read: no pp reward). You might fail them first time but on repetition you know they're coming up. You don't play the entire map in anticipation of that one part, become nervous af just for hoping to randomly hitting the spike and doubling the amount of pp awarded like you do with "jump throw your cursor over the entire screen"-type of spike. Gimmick difficulty creates challenge. Gimmicks stop being gimmicks after learning and getting accustomed to them. Star difficulty spikes (read: jump spikes) ruin maps enjoyment. They might be fine for occasional plays but frequent plays will make you loose focus the entire map because of that one upcoming spike. Also lower skill players can still get way more reward by randomly getting lucky.
you are not pishifat :(
oh wait
also this vid is fucking good, especially 2:31 onwards
teaching mid-map or right at the beginning is everything
new combo signaling is one of the best teaching / signaling tools
an odd placed new combo is a warning sign like "hey be prepared for anything right now"
hello there
so when will i be able to major in mapping theory?
hello there
University of Mapping, found in a place not on Google Maps. But it’s ridiculously expensive
When you successfully create a map fulfilling all the requirements for monstrata to make a GD on your map
Yey! I passed kinder garden :3
Apparently you didn't. Kindergarten*
Oh... Well. I guess I didn't
hello there
Sorry if that was mean, most don't know the correct spelling.
Curse Tempo Nah. It's better that you tell me . I will remember and not make that mistake in future :)
wait peppy is supporting you on patreon?
good job
hello there
I noticed that too :D
My spine has more difficulty spikes than any map. :P
hello there
hello there
The C6 and C7 bones, especially.
Malevolution That is a good one XD
This was a very nice video and it also gave a good explaination on gimmicks, more specifically on how to implement them in a map the proper way. I will definitely be using this video a lot when modding poorly gimmicked maps (as I have been with most of your videos lolz)
hello there
Favorite video so far, really interesting concepts I never thought about before.
hello there
awesome video as always, I'm learning so much about mapping with your advices.
could you please explain hitsounds? (such as how complex the map's hitsounds needs to be for the rank criteria, and the obligation of custom sounds)
hello there
I like that this kinda aligns with basic elements of game design too.
hello there
Hellooo Therrre, love your maps and videos (even though I am not a mapper myself). So I'm very curious, past the generic Insane/Hard/Normal/Easy how you choose CS and AR? I notice your mapsets have varying CS and AR, and cannot find the true meaning behind it. Sometimes you'll use a lower AR (8.7 or something), CS3, CS5.1, etc etc. I'm curious if this is a feeling or if you have a real reason for it.
I could kind of see what you meant in your Gimmicks video, but I'm curious as for your reasoning. If you have another video describing the video that I haven't seen, feel free to link me to that. Thanks!!!
hello there
may be talking about that soonish
I'll sum this up briefly; pishi might explain it better though.
AR is determined by how fast the map is (slider velocity, bpm, that kind of stuff)
CS is used to determine how precise your aim should be while playing. (4 is usually the standard for 4*+).
Yet there are times where lower AR is used when the map is higher BPM and low CS is used when aim needs to be somewhat precise.
Take Pishi's Extra diff in Sleeping with Sirens for example.
But yeah, I agree with what you said for generically mapped maps.
Ryan Chanak I think there is a guideline (or something) where there is the exact ar cs etc. for each difficulty.
edit: i just reread your comment, i think its all about mappers feeling about the song or either mappers preference, i usually pick lower circle size on low bpm songs and higher circle sizes on high bpm
edit 2: cs is circle size which is self-explanatory
ar is approach rate that circle thing that goes closer to the circle before you click the circle
hp is also known as drain this is also self-explanatory
od is the overall difficulty of the map
i'm the only who didn't know that retry/fail graph bound with song timestamp? i thought it based on time since it was ranked
hello there
the section about gimmick introduction reminds me of how people talk about game design in dark souls. introducing elements before putting them in context
Even after 5 years, still amazing video.
4:04 the main element that helps the player predict that it's a 1/4 slider isn't combo color or spacing or white ticks, but the (1) hitcircle that comes after it; more precisely, how quickly it's coming. the player can see he's meant to hit it very soon, so the player intuits that slider preceding it must end even sooner. same with 4:54. it's the following sliders tha thelps the player predict the increase in slider velocity.
charles' video isn't so relevant anymore because that particular pattern has been used so much that it's pretty much established as canon in the mapper's toolbox. i've played it so much and seen it in so many maps that' i can't consider it a "gimmick" anymore. it's just an ordinary pattern, albeit a slightly more difficult one to play, but an ordinary one nonetheless. as long as the pattern fits the sound then there's no problem, even if the sound only occurs in a "breakdown" section halfway through the map. charles' video still applies for more unorthodox patterns, but for that specific pattern it doesn't apply anymore in my opinion.
there's also the idea of a target audience. after having encountered these patterns countless times, i can play them pretty well. those maps that throw in those 1-2 patterns willy-nilly are probably directed at players who can play them on demand, like me. and there are many more players who can play those patterns than there were 2 years ago, when charles uploaded his video. it's no longer a pattern that requires building a map around.
hello there
hi
Informative as always. I just wanted to make a small request for future videos though - it would be nice if you could show all the examples with no mods on, like hidden.
hello there
Hello there, Thanks for giving me inspiration to map again :D
hello there
7:23 OOOH, that's what that blue and red thing means :o
hello there
"congrats on passing kindergarten"
sassy pishifat, 2017
hello there
noice vid
Alright, time to stop kidding ourselves, just give me your skin and I will get out of here.
(but nice video anyways ^^)
hello there
holy SHIT the way pishifat says OH makes me fucking AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
me, never realize any of this while playing: *interesting*
me: watching pishi's *mapping* tutorials:
improving playing > improving mapping
dafuq!? O.o
Hello there
Did someone really just reply "hello there" to almost every comment...? lel
hello there
hello there
GD Sp3eDaH hello there
Haha, this is so funny. (sarcasm)
Do combo colors and slider shapes really help people that much? I mean, sure, if there was no music it would be one thing. I can say with relative certainty that I would have subconsciously predicted the slider length based purely on the music long before I noticed it was a red curved slider etc.
Like if we are talking from a purely theoretical game design standpoint then yes, everything you said is true. I just feel like at some point we are using game design principles as the end all be all explanation.
God knows you don't look at a byfar slider out of the context of the song/editor and say, hey, that spaghetti looking slider couldn't be anything but a 3/4 extended slider. You know it's a 3/4 extended slider when playing the map because the song follows a predictable structure and byfar's mapping does a decent job of following a similar structure.
-------------Somewhat Unrelated Opinion--------------
I personally see Charles' point being more about using a consistent design paradigm than anything else. Establishing a solid framework where the gimmick is not unexpected being the more important takeaway than trying to hold the player's hand every step of the way.
That is, I think you are focusing too much on the idea of introducing gimmicks. The issue is that large scale structure of a lot of music rarely provides a good framework to employ Kishōtenketsu-style of introducing gimmicks in the same way that you can when designing levels for games like Super Mario 3D World.
With that said, I believe the issue you have with the map you showed, and the one that Charles had when he made that original video, was that the gimmick defies the expectations created by the rest of the map. While you did touch on this briefly, I believe this to be the larger issue at hand and applies to both types of difficulty spikes mentioned in this video.
hello there
I'm in the process of making my first map. An idea came to mind and i wanna know if people use the instrumental version of a song then changing it back to the original version when they finish the map
Hey pishi, love your videos:
I would really like a video where you talk about controversial maps like notch hell or tsubaki from hw.
Continue making great videos!
hello there
oh. ohhh. OHHHH.
hello there
pannulettu hello hello
@@ZeldaMstr109 hewwo hewwo hewwo
why did i comment this even...
Things like this are all over 3* maps. Songs that have the exact same repeated section as at the very start of the song but near the end, that's far more difficult, or which arbitrarily put a slider end a quarter beat from a slider start or a circle half a screen away, while every previous jump of that size on the map was at least a half a beat, in a fucking 3*, and it's off-putting. When difficulty spikes with natural BPM changes, it feels normal because your sense of rhythm keeps up with the change, it would be jarring to feel the song double in BPM but for circles to come in every 2 beats instead of every beat or on half beats, or for sliders to last for 2-3 beats instead of 1. It feels like some large percentage of 3* maps ranked within the last 5 or so years have weirdly placed objects like this for no reason though, they don't really reflect the song, they don't serve to highlight an important note, they seem to exist solely near the end of the song to try and break FCs and get people to replay the map, at least I can't think of another reason for it. There was a 3.8* map I was playing for fun just yesterday that did all of its high intensity stuff in a clockwise circle for 4 minutes, then in the last 30 seconds decided to do a sharp curve into a counter clockwise circle followed by some awkward obtuse jumps, and it was the same section of music. I expect arbitrary changes in 4* and 5* but to see a 3.8* at the end of the map intentionally break convention to screw with people really annoys me, that's supposed to be the normie difficulty, not the "let's troll the player" difficulty.
3:20 this is where reading comes in. if you focus on the rythm itself you wont ever get a good player. you should be able to play maps without music at all, just focussing on approach circles and not the music. there is just too much you need to consider when focussing on music.
tbh who cares about combo color? i use a skin with a single color and i dont think im the only one here lol
so yea thank you for explaining mapping in osu but it isnt interesting to us since we are mostly players and not mappers.
yeah but some people still play the game as a rhythm game... ikr anyways i guess reading is important too but on a 3* map no one really expects that stuff so they don't fully pay attention.
Can you make a video about seeing other game modes quality of maping? Because i never saw someone in the entire world making one good video about how to map in osu!mania, catch the beat or taiko. I don't know if you can map it properly, because you always make videos about osu standart, but would be smart to see how to map in other kinds of game modes. Or at least differentiate a good map from a bad map.
i dunno anything about other modes
;-;
*Sees background* oh. *sees title* OH.
Would you mind making a video about usage of stacks and overlaps?
Who needs to pass kindergarten anyway?
every child between 3 and 6 years
no
depends on the country.
I'm 4 I don't need to go to kindergarten xd
k
hello there
hello there
hello there
Hello there
C-c-combo breakerrr
hello there
im at 5k pp and never in life did I connect slider shapes or colors to their speeds o_o
I think most players are in the same boat
You have to be a crazy mapper to even think of something like that
We just memorize them or try really hard to listen to the rhythm. Relying on reflexes
2:55 I love you xD
hello there
pannulettu you need respect
First thing that comes to mind is ange du blanc pur
"maps have their hais and lows"
Can someone actually tell me what that weird orange green blue bar is at the bottom of the screen?
I ACE I I think you are talking about the score meter. blue = 300, green = 100, orange = 50. You can activate it in the options, search for "score meter"
Ah those jumps in miraizu(I definitely spelt that wrong) are the only reason I can't fc it :(
fully grasp it
hello there
you should make a video about ilegalising Monstratas maps :vvv
i don't think a normal player even thinks in the terms of 1/4th 1/8th 1/2 full beat or whatever. I didn't encounter that in my 500h of playtime, until I started trying to map. Only people in music theory even heard of things like this, all my friends are completely oblivious, like me as well. (I asked them)
A player doesn't play and think "hmm I guess it would make sense if this object was a 1/4th?"
You just look at the approach circles and try to execute it, hit them in the right order fast enough
I guarantee you if you take most players and set their music volume to 0%, their play will not deteriorate that much. Maybe acc will drop by a few percent, that's it
You follow the rhythm, and in most maps you don't even need the background music for it
why didnt deetz have anything mean to say this weekend
hello there
that is fucking genius mappers are gods
hello there
Well hello there fellow
where's zombies 100 nacht
1/4, 1/2 sliders are confusing to new people like myself.
I dont even get the gimmicks when playing maps lol
TH-cam notifies me of things like HOURS after I actually watched the videos. God damnit youtube notifications.
hello there
hiiii
"unavoidable difficulty spikes." The word your looking for is pacing: th-cam.com/video/5LScL4CWe5E/w-d-xo.html, and I do believe there's more to talk about. For instance, I don't play this map: osu.ppy.sh/b/912431&m=0 because the beginning of the kiai section is such a let down. The pacing of the map does not reflect the song's pacing because the build-up was stronger than the thing it was building up to.
Flower dance end stream
hello there
Wait, so you mean to tell me. That whenever I play osu!. I'm studying for Geometry, as well as taking tests for Geometry?
DORI DORI POWAAAA
hello there
Are you ok? I'm truly worried.
hello there
I got an Airheads commercial. Cringe just stepped up.
Edit: 7:30 No. No. No. You're only allowed to use that background for glorious crown.
#BladeDance #MonochromeButterfly
beatmap at 3:41 ?
itsjustme All beatmaps are in the description
hello there
skin?
meanwhile Im proud of myself for beating a "hard" map :(
I N T U I T I V E
ye all cool
everything that you've said is logical and makes a point
still, that camellia map at the end that you've showcased
is annoying af
and nobody wants that shit
yes its perfectly fine from a mappers perspective, I agree on that
but its still frustrating to play for obvious reasons
Marisa Lover whats so bad about that map in particular?
nothing is bad or unright about that map
its just that part with increased difficulty near the end is annoying af to play
thats all that I wanted to point out
hello there
oh
hello there
To be honest, it looks like this video covers gimmicks just as much if not more than your gimmicks video. Particularly how to implement them (using the basics of game design, namely 'hidden' tutorials)
Most of the video is about that, rather than difficulty spikes, though that does introduce it, and wrap it up neatly.
hello there
trash
mrBorkD probably bc other than jump spikes, gimmicks and how they're used are the only other kind of difficulty spike.
This video misses the entire point of a player talking about difficulty spikes. Gimmick random elements are not "official difficulty" (read: no pp reward). You might fail them first time but on repetition you know they're coming up. You don't play the entire map in anticipation of that one part, become nervous af just for hoping to randomly hitting the spike and doubling the amount of pp awarded like you do with "jump throw your cursor over the entire screen"-type of spike. Gimmick difficulty creates challenge. Gimmicks stop being gimmicks after learning and getting accustomed to them. Star difficulty spikes (read: jump spikes) ruin maps enjoyment. They might be fine for occasional plays but frequent plays will make you loose focus the entire map because of that one upcoming spike.
Also lower skill players can still get way more reward by randomly getting lucky.
hello there
what is that skin 0.0
hello there
H E L L O T H E R E
hello there
well hello there
nice bedroom voice
hello there
49th
hello there
Skin?
hello there
hello there