Going to add my $0.02 -- I have both Black Diamond Distance Carbon Z and Leki poles. The pole holding mechanism on the Leki poles is really ingenious and transfers energy much more efficiently than loops. Also you can completely release your grip. You didn't mention how to position and adjust the loop so that your hand presses down into it rather than transferring force through your grip. In my case, I always unhook on descents because tripping with poles makes catching yourself really dangerous. I always use poles when the surface is muddy to stabilize myself. Poles slow me down whether I'm running or hiking, so I tend to use them only when I need to. Poles force me to be more upright, which can be helpful, but it makes it harder to engage my glutes on hiking. I use poles when the incline is > 20%, regardless of the race distance, although I might bring them out on flatter ascents if I'm getting tired. I don't run down with poles unless the trail is muddy. On very steep technical descents where I have to hike down, I use poles (unhooked) much like a sight-impaired person uses a cane, to judge the step. Definitely takes practice to collapse your poles while moving. And you are 100% right about poles being a risk to eating when you should.
Thanks for sharing! I really want to try them. I can’t justify buying them however. So if they sent me some, I’ll test. Otherwise I’ll wait. I also know too many stories of leki breaking - which scares me a bit. It’d rather be slower than risk a critical fall. For the handle, I hear some love it, and some hate it. I myself often move the way I hold my poles but you’re right on the description. It’s not through your grip.
I got the aluminuim Z-poles from Black Diamond and a Salomon quiver, works really well. I will use poles on shorter trails if there is elevation gain, it really helps me get up the hill.
Never got the quiver - every time I tried to get one, they were back-order, and/or eventually they cancelled my order. I was just very unlikely, and at this point I'm just annoyed and not bothering anymore. But it'd be sooooo helpful!
I should also mention that getting up steep climbs with poles or over slippery or rough terrain is far easier. I would recommend getting them if you are running more than a few trail races a year.
Nice one mate. I’ve enjoyed the assistance that poles have given me. I look at runners that don’t use them and wonder why they don’t give poles a go. I loved your image for ‘carbon fibre’ it got a solid laugh.
I used poles on the UTS 25, and I don't think I would have got round without them. My arms and pecs hurt like hell at the end, and all that effort would have been added to my legs, which were also ruined.
Another benefit to the tri-fold poles vs the adjustable ones is how short they are when you're not using them. With the tri-folds, I can attach to my pack and not worry about them, but with adjustable poles, I hit them with my elbows which makes them unusable.
I used Leki carbon cross trail also on short trailrunning but because a had a two month ago a femor fracture and they help me a lot on trail. And also I am 53 years old and I like to use it.
Femur fracture? Ouch!... What do you think of the leki poles? I've never tried them, but feels it's pretty high on my 'I should probably try them someday' - list
@@runningwithsimon Yes, it was quite a serious fracture, but now I’m already training and trail running again. I’m satisfied with Leki poles, although one of them broke recently. However, to be fair, I’ve covered a lot of ground with them on really tough mountain and rocky trails. Even here on our Karst terrain, which is quite rocky, they’ve held up well considering the kilometers I’ve run. I’ve now bought a more durable pair, so we’ll see how these handle the rocks. I always go for carbon poles because they’re lighter for me. But I’m sure aluminum ones would also perform very well on these terrains of mine.
@@cellargym2023 Thanks, and glad to hear you are doing better. I've heard quite a few people saying they broke one or more pole which is probably the main reason I'm slow at adopting them. I'd definitely be putting a lot of stress on them too. I had carbon poles long ago and mine broke too in cold conditions - not sure it's related or not but that as always left me a little worried (although these poles were cheaper - so maybe leki's are more durable)
Thank you for the great advice and video! I just finished the Kodiak Big Bear 100K and read in the guidelines 'if you use poles you can not drop them in a bag you need to have them on you the whole time'. Glad I read that before saving myself the embarrassment
My primary sport is cross country skiing. We use as much carbon fiber as we dare/can afford. A carbon fiber pole can stand the cold, but the more carbon fibre the more stiff and brittle they become. They can take a very high load pushing down on them but can break easily if they are hit. Just falling over can spell the doom for carbon poles.
Bonne chance au QMT! n"oublie pas tes batons, pour le sentiers des caps, ils m'ont sauve la vie l'an passe! Many thanks for the video, they are always interesting.
Ah merci! Donc c’est très technique? Je ne connais pas les sentiers la bas (mais dans ma tête c’est east coast beast coast donc parfois très abrute, et des grosses roches et racines pour tribucher)
@@runningwithsimon pour moi c’était technique… racines et boues, et les pentes sont parfois des ruisseaux! Mais à part le sentier des caps et le mestachibo, c’est vraiment chouette! Bonne course et j’ai hâte de voir la vidéo.
Thank you Simon, this is a very helpful video! I'm on my training path towards a very technical race about 50 km 4000 m elevation. I started training only recently with exactly these Black Diamond Distance Carbon Z which you mentioned in the video. Surprisingly to me, trekking poles technique in running so much similar to the poles technique in cross country skiing, which I was doing a lot when I was a kid.
I use them a lot for races, and even on flat terrain when in long ultras... it helps. And yes, you need to practice with them in training... no waiting until the race, then they will surely hinder your run instead of helping
I’m not doing ultras but mountain trails in NZ tend to be pretty steep and nasty. I use aluminium adjustable poles from Harrier in the UK and switch up the length depending on the terrain. They’ve saved me from tripping over many times.
Nah - sometimes it creates weird visual artifact when processing the edited movie. There's also a weird one at 0:47 for about 5 frames which I can't explain. That's a screen that pops when you have file errors, but there were none here. I tried to reprocess and didn't improved. It's a mystery...but the info is all there.
Very helpful! I’ve tried running with poles but found myself thinking “what am i even doing”. Have used for hiking prior. Now know when to use and how ! Just have to practice
Thanks for this video Simon. I've been searching for feeebacks on Trail Poles, how to use them and what type and this condenses pretty much the info I need. Always enjoy watching your work. Congrats on the effort and passion. Good races and trainings 🔥🙌🙏
Man, every day I come across another informative video you have done that is amazing. I’m just now trying to train myself to knock out an ultra next year. I was curious if you had heard of the 80/20 model when it comes to training and your thoughts?
Assuming by 80/20 model you mean low vs. high intensity mileage in training? Yes, I think that's a very solid advice actually. A lot of people only do 'middle speed' training - like always same intensity. To get the best bang for your buck, doing slow runs and fast runs will help. Not sure if you saw the training plan video, but I briefly go through this concept. Here: th-cam.com/video/cNzBhZSOe78/w-d-xo.html
For sure! You have to be careful about how much weight you put on them, but I was using them a lot for this and/or traction on unstable downhill at Ouray.
Another excellent instructional film Simon, thanks on behalf of the community. Poles imo become more valuable as we tire in the tougher efforts. In technical terrain I find I’m slower with them as there is additional thinking time for pole planting location, versus the more instinctive movement without. Also in steep descents I find they can get in the way - until again we are very tired and we’re slow anyway. The Leki click system is so good, they’re the only solution for me. Black Diamond I had and they failed very quickly. Thanks again man, enjoy Quebec Mega Trail this weekend 👍🏾🦄😸🏴
Thanks - QMT will be fun. Agreed with you the more tired, the more obvious the benefit! Curious - what do you mean with they 'failed' with your black diamond?
@@runningwithsimon with the BD Z poles, out on a trail run, maybe 3rd time out with them. Planted pole, it stuck in the ground and without much effort at all it snapped - that is the connecting cord inside the carbon came apart. I saw then how flimsy the construction was. Tried and failed to fix them myself. Contacted BD and they made a huge deal about wanting proof of purchase - which I couldn’t find. When I discovered the Leki click system and compared it to BD imo one is superior to the other by a wide margin. I know from reading folks reports that they’ve suffered failures with Leki but I’ve put mine through hard use and so far no problems.
Thank you Simon! Super helpful as always! I ran my first 50km Ultra Trail in Singapore last weekend, and maybe using poles would have helped me! Would you be able to make a video on the trail techniques, ie how to run in the trail without breaking the feet or legs? Rocks, mud, slippery grass makes the trail experience a tough one for a newbie like me 😅.
Congratulations!! Ok I’ll try to. I’ve wanted to do something like that but not sure where to start. Depends so much on terrain. And in the end, it feels like the kinda thing explaining help doesn’t help nearly as much as trying it yourself…falling a few times… and learning. But I’ll give it more thought
It's good to practice with them and see for yourself the benefit. And the benefit becomes more and more obvious the longer the distance. That's why virtually everyone uses poles in 200s
i love my poles and have used them in a few ultras. i also make sure to train with them at least a little bit before any race to stay sharp on the technique. totally agreed about eating less. i try to take in easy liquid calories, but other times I push back getting into solids when my hands are busy. Gotta be aware. EDIT: Got some Lekis and I love them, and really, it is easy to detach the glove from pole and I should eat more. They are trifold and adjustable within 110 to 130 cm - wasn't sure what height i wanted since they were my first.
@@runningwithsimon ive thought about trying different heights based on the steepness or if I'm descending (unless very tired, i rarely use descending - they get in way). I almost always lock in at about 127 cm. I'm about 182 cm tall. But yeah, I rarely adjust. Maybe I should experiment.
Thank you, Dr. G! Very interesting considerations and thoughts about the decision and technique. Can’t wait to hear about QMT 100 coming up - navigation does look tricky, and TDG looks absolutely epic! So excited for you to experience it, and I know you will do well on these upcoming adventures!
@@runningwithsimon Are you still on the schedule you laid out earlier this year on a video? Or are there any schedule updates? Maybe an updated schedule video with a few thoughts on what’s left? Even a TH-cam short? 🤗
@@Gator35 That's a good question. No substraction, only 1 addition (Diagonale des Fous in October), some confirmation (i.e., Tor des Geants), and 1 wrong date (QMT is July 5, not 3). There's always the possibility to remove something last minute if I'm injured, but that'd be a game time decision. And I'll probably try to have some adventure outside of racing. One that is worth noting is we'll do Tour du Mont-Blanc (not the race itself, but same trail) over 3-4 days with Nora. Early september - so between Leadville and tor des geants. Nora's idea - since we're in the area, why not?! I've also posted the calendar on IG which my be easier to follow than on YT. instagram.com/p/C23hH53pfTR/?img_index=1
I wanted to know what you thought of these workouts that my running club does for marathon training. There’s one woman who’s been the only person that is training in our advanced group and she’s run multiple marathon majors. I pace her during the workouts but I’m annoyed with it because of how unnecessarily fast we go. I can do the workouts but it’s just a waste of effort and makes it hard for me to do my own training because I don’t wanna do two anaerobic workouts one day apart. For our speed workouts she usually does 200s, 400s and 800s. I ran all throughout high school so I have a pretty good amount of knowledge in sprints and middle distance running. Our head coach likes to focus on the long distance like half marathon and marathon. They have it going good on the aerobic workouts like the easy runs and long runs but the anaerobic workouts are honestly too fast and too many reps. Most of the time he wants her to be going 36-38 on 200s, 80-84 on the 400s and then 2:40-2:50 on the 800s. Her marathon pr is 3:04 I believe so she’s running close to 7 flat pace. There’s some workouts she can’t finish so it’s just not good for her to be going that hard. She shouldn’t be on the ground not able to finish the workout for marathon training. That would be helpful if we were training for the sprint events, 800 and mile because that’s where you NEED that anaerobic condition WAYYY more than in the marathon. I have a friend who coaches at a university here and he ran all throughout high school and all throughout college too. I told him about the workouts and he said that it was too fast. I like to do maintenance workouts like tempo and slower repeats because they’re tiring enough to keep your anaerobic conditioning but not too tiring where you can’t finish it. It’s about training smart and not hard. So let me know what you think about that
I tend to agree. But I'm fine with shorter distance intervals. My main issue is if you can't finish the workout some times, and lay on the ground, I don't think it was a productive workout. It's OK to make that mistake some times, but at some point you should know the right pace. Also sound like a training for shorter distance to me - but I tend to run for ultras anyway, so maybe it's not totally crazy for someone aiming for a fast HM.
@@runningwithsimon yeah it’s like she’s training for the mile and 2 mile. Honestly even for the half marathon I respectfully disagree haha because she wouldn’t even be at the pace for that either. It’s still too fast. Thanks for letting me know what you thought
@@DavidPaulandBillT The idea is not that you train at pace you'll race - for those it's to increase VO2max which will increase your lactate threshold (which will help you have a higher pace below lactate threshold - go faster longer).
@@DavidPaulandBillT I think typically the suggestion is when far from the race, intervals, getting closer threshold then tempo. I don't know if any is necessarily better for vo2 max specifically - I think it'd be hard to study that accurately. But conceptually, you'd think short interval would help little more with vo2 max, and threshold with lactate threshold. One being more focused on needing large amount of O2, the other being also more helpful downstream in the metabolic pathway to help clear lactate (since you are building it up at the max you can clear). Both will ultimately help with lactate threshold albeit slightly differently/with a different focus. Not that you are not eliminating lactate during interval, or that you are not using large volume of O2 in threshold - but to me conceptually, you push on the limit of these parameters differently. But that's all - theoritical / my random ass speculating. Consensus is simply : closer to race day, workout that are more similar (aka short intervals becomes less relevant with time)
its not like there arent other forms of competitve running where upper body is used to propel you forward, just look at how built 100 meter sprinters are. Those developed muscles in the shoulders and arms are an advantage. I'm guessing poles are disallowed from Mt. Fuji and Javalina because of singletrack, and the large number of participants. Poles are disallowed at the Dipsea, the Double Dipsea, and the Quad Dipsea, all because of the compact space.
Sure thing about sprinter. Different motion and amount of power you can transfer. Mt Fuji is for environmental/ trail protection. It is surprising however because of how steep and mountainous it is. A comparable race in the US would definitely allow them. Javelina it’s mostly because there’s no need, so to simplify passing on single track on such short course where pros will lap you.
Hey Simon, Aussie here 🦘 have been enjoying all of your content so thought i would drop a comment. I have my first 100km coming up the Blackall100. Having only run 2 road marathons before Im not to sure on a pacing strategy for this race. I dont want to push too hard too early. Secondly, do you watch any particular metrics on your garmin during the race? Are you looking at your average pace or perhaps estimated time to finish. How do you pace yourself during a race to finish on your desired time. I feel like the less mental math you have to do the better sonsetting the watch up for the race might help? Thanks for the content 🙏
Hello back! I don't really follow any metrics on my watch while racing. I think that's a very personnel preference type of thing. Nora for example will very often look, although she mostly focuses on distance. Many will look at HR - making sure they never go too high (I prefer going by perceived effort...but I do have a lot of experience). Pace I wouldn't look - it depends a lot on the trail. The two main thing I monitor (beyond perceived effort) are 1) time to cutoff (or time to the pace I had set up), 2) my ability to eat. If I feel like I can't eat much anymore, I'll try to slow down until I can eat. As for cutoff, I just want to have a good buffer. If you are more ambitious and have time goal - which I sometimes do but not always - then I try to find splits from prior year runners that have a similar finishing time to what I aim. Say cutoff is 36hr, but I want 30 - I'll find a few runners like that, not their time at aid station. And now I aim for that. If I'm ahead, I might slow down to eat more. Good luck!
I think the threshold you propose for when to use poles (+50mi) is for very experienced people... I'd recomend them to absolutelly anyone going into their first trail 50k... even a shorter trail race if planning to be on the back of the pack and hike the most of it or there's lots of climbs. One of the uses I have for them is just walking fkn fast on flat jeep roads... nordic walking style. for me it would be to much of an energy expense to run some of those, but with the poles I can get 9 minute kilometers consistently. Got a pair of Black Diamond like yours and they broke in 200 ks. I'm a big heavy guy, 90ks using the 145cm poles. What broke was the spring/bolt thing that pops up when you unfold. I can still sue them but now its shorter... I don't know what to get next.
Totally, I think the threshold depends on fitness more than experience in the sense that you see very experienced but little older runner starting to use them at shorter distance. No shame at all, it's just about finding the right balance. Just like you said, if you plan to walk some of the race, poles might be a good idea. Sorry to hear about the black diamond poles. Have you tried asking for an exchange? That spring thingy shouldn't break after only 200k, that was a bad pair for sure - your weight or how to use them shouldn't affect that.
@@runningwithsimon I am not sure whether it can be attached to Salomon vests only or any other vests as well. Which one are you using with your poles or are you carrying them in some othe way? Thank you for your replies and videos. Very informative channel for people who race similar stuff.
@@TrailSurfer18 I'm not using anything. I used a generic one for a couple of time but didn't really like it - it was bouncing a lot, and still needed a fair amount of work to put poles back. So I still just use my vest directly. Would love to try Salomon's some day
It might be helpful to watch a Nordic ski race to observe some of the techniques. There is also a nice video of Hannes Namberger displaying what he is doing with them, but it‘s in German and what he does average people possibly cannot reproduce. When someone asks me I always answer as a rule of thumb: take care, that the point is always pointing backwards - you want to propel yourself and not brake. As for the temperature effect: aluminium gets more brittle in the cold, carbon fibre laminates are more negatively affected by heat.
Just had my first mountainous ultra in the Alps and boy am I glad I had poles. I did struggle with getting in the calories because of the poles and have since heard of a trick if one is only using flasks for water and not the bladder in the back. Empty all your gels into the bladder of the hydration pack with a little water. This also saves on the hassel of fiddling with gel packets, it’s thereby cleaner and reduces the rubbish issue. Naturally, this will make it very hard to calculate how much calories one consumes. But I think the trade-off is still worth it. Has anyone tried this? I'd love to know your experience with this.
I'm not sure I understand the tip. So are you pouring the content of the gels into the bladder, and dilute it with some water, to then drink it as a somewhat highly concentrated fueling?
@@runningwithsimon yes, you understood that correctly. However, I would say that the concentration of the gels with water is diluted somewhat so as to pass through the straw more easily. Apparently not all gels mix with water so we'll.
@@NickSheppardsheppsta Curious which gels and how many you used for a good concentration. Most people would probably use something like tailwind, which is fairly good calories / mL, and you can easily make new one mid-race if you don't like what they have at aid station. But maybe there's advantages to using gels as the base.
@@runningwithsimon yes, tailwind does make sense in this regard. I haven't tried tailwind yet, but hear great things. Personally I don't like the sloshing of watery liquid in the bladder, hence the gels. The youtuber Chris Brance did this trick for Ultratrail Snowdownia, but he didn't mention how many gels he squeezed into bladder sorry. Another downside for really long ultras would be taste fatigue I guess. I haven't tried this trick, thus my reason for my query.
Without my poles I would still be at the top of a Dorset cliff.. It was the only time I got them out all race but for that 15 mins they were essential 🎉
Another great video! I had to do a double take on your "double fisting" technique. 😂😂 I've had a few races saved but poles. I prefer not using them, but when needed, they're worth their weight in gold.
Not showing the proper use of straps? Makes a huge difference. MSR makes a carbon fiber tri-fold expedition pole so there is at least some carbon fiber out there that can handle extreme cold. They are also adjustable, which is nice. I just wish they had a “racing” handle version instead of the normal hiking to be a bit less bulky. They are thicker carbon fiber and I have put them through the wringer, yet to have one fail or hear of one breaking. I am sure it happens but they are very robust.
I know! It's annoying me! It's an odd bug in rendering the video - you'd see this if one of the underlying video wasn't available, but that would crash rendering. AND there were no missing clips - it's a mystery...
![How To Choose The Right Trekking Pole [For Trail Runners, Ultra-lite Hikers AND Backpackers]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sI8NRykTxHw/mqdefault.jpg)
![How To Choose The Right Trekking Pole [For Trail Runners, Ultra-lite Hikers AND Backpackers]](/img/tr.png)
Going to add my $0.02 -- I have both Black Diamond Distance Carbon Z and Leki poles. The pole holding mechanism on the Leki poles is really ingenious and transfers energy much more efficiently than loops. Also you can completely release your grip. You didn't mention how to position and adjust the loop so that your hand presses down into it rather than transferring force through your grip. In my case, I always unhook on descents because tripping with poles makes catching yourself really dangerous. I always use poles when the surface is muddy to stabilize myself. Poles slow me down whether I'm running or hiking, so I tend to use them only when I need to. Poles force me to be more upright, which can be helpful, but it makes it harder to engage my glutes on hiking. I use poles when the incline is > 20%, regardless of the race distance, although I might bring them out on flatter ascents if I'm getting tired. I don't run down with poles unless the trail is muddy. On very steep technical descents where I have to hike down, I use poles (unhooked) much like a sight-impaired person uses a cane, to judge the step. Definitely takes practice to collapse your poles while moving. And you are 100% right about poles being a risk to eating when you should.
Thanks for sharing! I really want to try them. I can’t justify buying them however. So if they sent me some, I’ll test. Otherwise I’ll wait. I also know too many stories of leki breaking - which scares me a bit. It’d rather be slower than risk a critical fall.
For the handle, I hear some love it, and some hate it. I myself often move the way I hold my poles but you’re right on the description. It’s not through your grip.
I got the aluminuim Z-poles from Black Diamond and a Salomon quiver, works really well. I will use poles on shorter trails if there is elevation gain, it really helps me get up the hill.
Never got the quiver - every time I tried to get one, they were back-order, and/or eventually they cancelled my order. I was just very unlikely, and at this point I'm just annoyed and not bothering anymore. But it'd be sooooo helpful!
I used trekking poles on my last two ultras. There is a huge difference when it comes to the tiredness and soreness in your legs afterwards.
This is the video I’ve been looking for actually.
These are NOT the droids you are looking for.
I should also mention that getting up steep climbs with poles or over slippery or rough terrain is far easier.
I would recommend getting them if you are running more than a few trail races a year.
Exactly! And thanks for sharing your experience
Nice one mate. I’ve enjoyed the assistance that poles have given me. I look at runners that don’t use them and wonder why they don’t give poles a go.
I loved your image for ‘carbon fibre’ it got a solid laugh.
Coach Brian rarely uses them. And he’s an experienced runner. So I guess it’s a preference thing.
I used poles on the UTS 25, and I don't think I would have got round without them. My arms and pecs hurt like hell at the end, and all that effort would have been added to my legs, which were also ruined.
Nice pain equalizer!
And congrats on UTS25!
I heard that course can be killer at every distance it offers - good work!! Another case for me training with poles :)
Another benefit to the tri-fold poles vs the adjustable ones is how short they are when you're not using them. With the tri-folds, I can attach to my pack and not worry about them, but with adjustable poles, I hit them with my elbows which makes them unusable.
Good point!
I used Leki carbon cross trail also on short trailrunning but because a had a two month ago a femor fracture and they help me a lot on trail. And also I am 53 years old and I like to use it.
Femur fracture? Ouch!...
What do you think of the leki poles? I've never tried them, but feels it's pretty high on my 'I should probably try them someday' - list
@@runningwithsimon Yes, it was quite a serious fracture, but now I’m already training and trail running again. I’m satisfied with Leki poles, although one of them broke recently. However, to be fair, I’ve covered a lot of ground with them on really tough mountain and rocky trails. Even here on our Karst terrain, which is quite rocky, they’ve held up well considering the kilometers I’ve run. I’ve now bought a more durable pair, so we’ll see how these handle the rocks. I always go for carbon poles because they’re lighter for me. But I’m sure aluminum ones would also perform very well on these terrains of mine.
@@cellargym2023 Thanks, and glad to hear you are doing better. I've heard quite a few people saying they broke one or more pole which is probably the main reason I'm slow at adopting them. I'd definitely be putting a lot of stress on them too. I had carbon poles long ago and mine broke too in cold conditions - not sure it's related or not but that as always left me a little worried (although these poles were cheaper - so maybe leki's are more durable)
Thank you for the great advice and video! I just finished the Kodiak Big Bear 100K and read in the guidelines 'if you use poles you can not drop them in a bag you need to have them on you the whole time'. Glad I read that before saving myself the embarrassment
Such an odd rule...Picking up gear and leaving some behind is the key use for drop bags. Not sure why they'd make an exception about poles
My primary sport is cross country skiing. We use as much carbon fiber as we dare/can afford.
A carbon fiber pole can stand the cold, but the more carbon fibre the more stiff and brittle they become. They can take a very high load pushing down on them but can break easily if they are hit. Just falling over can spell the doom for carbon poles.
Bonne chance au QMT! n"oublie pas tes batons, pour le sentiers des caps, ils m'ont sauve la vie l'an passe! Many thanks for the video, they are always interesting.
Ah merci! Donc c’est très technique? Je ne connais pas les sentiers la bas (mais dans ma tête c’est east coast beast coast donc parfois très abrute, et des grosses roches et racines pour tribucher)
@@runningwithsimon pour moi c’était technique… racines et boues, et les pentes sont parfois des ruisseaux! Mais à part le sentier des caps et le mestachibo, c’est vraiment chouette!
Bonne course et j’ai hâte de voir la vidéo.
Thank you Simon, this is a very helpful video! I'm on my training path towards a very technical race about 50 km 4000 m elevation. I started training only recently with exactly these Black Diamond Distance Carbon Z which you mentioned in the video. Surprisingly to me, trekking poles technique in running so much similar to the poles technique in cross country skiing, which I was doing a lot when I was a kid.
Very similar indeed. 4000m is a lot in 50k - might have to scramble too?!
@@runningwithsimon I hope not 🙂 although there will be some parts with some significant gradient, like up to 30-35% or so
I use them a lot for races, and even on flat terrain when in long ultras... it helps. And yes, you need to practice with them in training... no waiting until the race, then they will surely hinder your run instead of helping
Exactly! Mountain race they are super useful, but for long distance too!
@@runningwithsimon I also think it is personal preference... for me I believe they have helped me, but for others they never like or adapt to them
I’m not doing ultras but mountain trails in NZ tend to be pretty steep and nasty. I use aluminium adjustable poles from Harrier in the UK and switch up the length depending on the terrain. They’ve saved me from tripping over many times.
True when I sleep walk, I take out the poles!
7:44 is something missing here？
Nah - sometimes it creates weird visual artifact when processing the edited movie.
There's also a weird one at 0:47 for about 5 frames which I can't explain. That's a screen that pops when you have file errors, but there were none here. I tried to reprocess and didn't improved. It's a mystery...but the info is all there.
Very helpful! I’ve tried running with poles but found myself thinking “what am i even doing”. Have used for hiking prior. Now know when to use and how ! Just have to practice
At first it feels like "What do I normally do with my hands?!"
Thanks for this video Simon. I've been searching for feeebacks on Trail Poles, how to use them and what type and this condenses pretty much the info I need.
Always enjoy watching your work. Congrats on the effort and passion. Good races and trainings 🔥🙌🙏
Thanks - I hope it's helpful!
Man, every day I come across another informative video you have done that is amazing. I’m just now trying to train myself to knock out an ultra next year. I was curious if you had heard of the 80/20 model when it comes to training and your thoughts?
Assuming by 80/20 model you mean low vs. high intensity mileage in training? Yes, I think that's a very solid advice actually. A lot of people only do 'middle speed' training - like always same intensity. To get the best bang for your buck, doing slow runs and fast runs will help. Not sure if you saw the training plan video, but I briefly go through this concept. Here:
th-cam.com/video/cNzBhZSOe78/w-d-xo.html
thanks for your instruction about using poles :D
Thanks - glad it's helpful!
I would think that going down a steep slope, when there are no support steps in the dirt, would be a great place for pole use.
For sure! You have to be careful about how much weight you put on them, but I was using them a lot for this and/or traction on unstable downhill at Ouray.
Another excellent instructional film Simon, thanks on behalf of the community.
Poles imo become more valuable as we tire in the tougher efforts. In technical terrain I find I’m slower with them as there is additional thinking time for pole planting location, versus the more instinctive movement without. Also in steep descents I find they can get in the way - until again we are very tired and we’re slow anyway.
The Leki click system is so good, they’re the only solution for me. Black Diamond I had and they failed very quickly.
Thanks again man, enjoy Quebec Mega Trail this weekend 👍🏾🦄😸🏴
Thanks - QMT will be fun. Agreed with you the more tired, the more obvious the benefit!
Curious - what do you mean with they 'failed' with your black diamond?
@@runningwithsimon with the BD Z poles, out on a trail run, maybe 3rd time out with them. Planted pole, it stuck in the ground and without much effort at all it snapped - that is the connecting cord inside the carbon came apart. I saw then how flimsy the construction was. Tried and failed to fix them myself. Contacted BD and they made a huge deal about wanting proof of purchase - which I couldn’t find. When I discovered the Leki click system and compared it to BD imo one is superior to the other by a wide margin. I know from reading folks reports that they’ve suffered failures with Leki but I’ve put mine through hard use and so far no problems.
@@HowardWortonjb71 Interesting - bummer that they didn't offer good customer service. Their loss - now you're happy with leki!
Thank you Simon! Super helpful as always! I ran my first 50km Ultra Trail in Singapore last weekend, and maybe using poles would have helped me!
Would you be able to make a video on the trail techniques, ie how to run in the trail without breaking the feet or legs?
Rocks, mud, slippery grass makes the trail experience a tough one for a newbie like me 😅.
Congratulations!! Ok I’ll try to. I’ve wanted to do something like that but not sure where to start. Depends so much on terrain. And in the end, it feels like the kinda thing explaining help doesn’t help nearly as much as trying it yourself…falling a few times… and learning. But I’ll give it more thought
@@runningwithsimon thanks much! Quick question: regarding the poles, does the company ship oversees, or US only? Cheers
@@fd318 blackc Diamond should be international. Although maybe they have different distributors. If it doesn’t work on their website maybe try amazon.
Thanks Simon!
You’re welcome!
Thx for video! I have yet to use, but my next big mountain race I may consider...just dont want to have them be a crutch.
It's good to practice with them and see for yourself the benefit. And the benefit becomes more and more obvious the longer the distance. That's why virtually everyone uses poles in 200s
i love my poles and have used them in a few ultras. i also make sure to train with them at least a little bit before any race to stay sharp on the technique.
totally agreed about eating less. i try to take in easy liquid calories, but other times I push back getting into solids when my hands are busy. Gotta be aware.
EDIT: Got some Lekis and I love them, and really, it is easy to detach the glove from pole and I should eat more. They are trifold and adjustable within 110 to 130 cm - wasn't sure what height i wanted since they were my first.
Out of curiosity - do you end up changing the length often? Or now you know the size you like and go for that every time?
@@runningwithsimon ive thought about trying different heights based on the steepness or if I'm descending (unless very tired, i rarely use descending - they get in way). I almost always lock in at about 127 cm. I'm about 182 cm tall.
But yeah, I rarely adjust. Maybe I should experiment.
That was excellent. Thank you very much.
Sure thing!
Thank you, Dr. G! Very interesting considerations and thoughts about the decision and technique.
Can’t wait to hear about QMT 100 coming up - navigation does look tricky, and TDG looks absolutely epic! So excited for you to experience it, and I know you will do well on these upcoming adventures!
Thanks!!! TDG is coming up fast (only 2 months!) - and so much cool stuff before then :)
@@runningwithsimon Are you still on the schedule you laid out earlier this year on a video? Or are there any schedule updates? Maybe an updated schedule video with a few thoughts on what’s left? Even a TH-cam short? 🤗
@@Gator35 That's a good question. No substraction, only 1 addition (Diagonale des Fous in October), some confirmation (i.e., Tor des Geants), and 1 wrong date (QMT is July 5, not 3). There's always the possibility to remove something last minute if I'm injured, but that'd be a game time decision. And I'll probably try to have some adventure outside of racing. One that is worth noting is we'll do Tour du Mont-Blanc (not the race itself, but same trail) over 3-4 days with Nora. Early september - so between Leadville and tor des geants. Nora's idea - since we're in the area, why not?!
I've also posted the calendar on IG which my be easier to follow than on YT.
instagram.com/p/C23hH53pfTR/?img_index=1
@@runningwithsimon Hopefully some coverage of the Tour du Mont-Blanc experience! Thanks for the hint about the calendar being on IG!
Thank you for the video!
You bet!
I wanted to know what you thought of these workouts that my running club does for marathon training. There’s one woman who’s been the only person that is training in our advanced group and she’s run multiple marathon majors. I pace her during the workouts but I’m annoyed with it because of how unnecessarily fast we go. I can do the workouts but it’s just a waste of effort and makes it hard for me to do my own training because I don’t wanna do two anaerobic workouts one day apart. For our speed workouts she usually does 200s, 400s and 800s. I ran all throughout high school so I have a pretty good amount of knowledge in sprints and middle distance running. Our head coach likes to focus on the long distance like half marathon and marathon. They have it going good on the aerobic workouts like the easy runs and long runs but the anaerobic workouts are honestly too fast and too many reps. Most of the time he wants her to be going 36-38 on 200s, 80-84 on the 400s and then 2:40-2:50 on the 800s. Her marathon pr is 3:04 I believe so she’s running close to 7 flat pace. There’s some workouts she can’t finish so it’s just not good for her to be going that hard. She shouldn’t be on the ground not able to finish the workout for marathon training. That would be helpful if we were training for the sprint events, 800 and mile because that’s where you NEED that anaerobic condition WAYYY more than in the marathon. I have a friend who coaches at a university here and he ran all throughout high school and all throughout college too. I told him about the workouts and he said that it was too fast. I like to do maintenance workouts like tempo and slower repeats because they’re tiring enough to keep your anaerobic conditioning but not too tiring where you can’t finish it. It’s about training smart and not hard. So let me know what you think about that
I tend to agree. But I'm fine with shorter distance intervals. My main issue is if you can't finish the workout some times, and lay on the ground, I don't think it was a productive workout. It's OK to make that mistake some times, but at some point you should know the right pace. Also sound like a training for shorter distance to me - but I tend to run for ultras anyway, so maybe it's not totally crazy for someone aiming for a fast HM.
@@runningwithsimon yeah it’s like she’s training for the mile and 2 mile. Honestly even for the half marathon I respectfully disagree haha because she wouldn’t even be at the pace for that either. It’s still too fast. Thanks for letting me know what you thought
@@DavidPaulandBillT The idea is not that you train at pace you'll race - for those it's to increase VO2max which will increase your lactate threshold (which will help you have a higher pace below lactate threshold - go faster longer).
@@runningwithsimon do you think tempo and threshold would be better for vo2max or 200s and 400s
@@DavidPaulandBillT I think typically the suggestion is when far from the race, intervals, getting closer threshold then tempo. I don't know if any is necessarily better for vo2 max specifically - I think it'd be hard to study that accurately. But conceptually, you'd think short interval would help little more with vo2 max, and threshold with lactate threshold. One being more focused on needing large amount of O2, the other being also more helpful downstream in the metabolic pathway to help clear lactate (since you are building it up at the max you can clear). Both will ultimately help with lactate threshold albeit slightly differently/with a different focus. Not that you are not eliminating lactate during interval, or that you are not using large volume of O2 in threshold - but to me conceptually, you push on the limit of these parameters differently.
But that's all - theoritical / my random ass speculating. Consensus is simply : closer to race day, workout that are more similar (aka short intervals becomes less relevant with time)
Super helpful info as I've been thinking about trying out poles!
I think they are super useful! Not always, but good to get a lot of practice and mileage with them before 'the big show' so you get the most of them.
its not like there arent other forms of competitve running where upper body is used to propel you forward, just look at how built 100 meter sprinters are. Those developed muscles in the shoulders and arms are an advantage. I'm guessing poles are disallowed from Mt. Fuji and Javalina because of singletrack, and the large number of participants. Poles are disallowed at the Dipsea, the Double Dipsea, and the Quad Dipsea, all because of the compact space.
Sure thing about sprinter. Different motion and amount of power you can transfer.
Mt Fuji is for environmental/ trail protection. It is surprising however because of how steep and mountainous it is. A comparable race in the US would definitely allow them.
Javelina it’s mostly because there’s no need, so to simplify passing on single track on such short course where pros will lap you.
Hey Simon, Aussie here 🦘 have been enjoying all of your content so thought i would drop a comment.
I have my first 100km coming up the Blackall100. Having only run 2 road marathons before Im not to sure on a pacing strategy for this race. I dont want to push too hard too early.
Secondly, do you watch any particular metrics on your garmin during the race? Are you looking at your average pace or perhaps estimated time to finish. How do you pace yourself during a race to finish on your desired time. I feel like the less mental math you have to do the better sonsetting the watch up for the race might help?
Thanks for the content 🙏
Hello back!
I don't really follow any metrics on my watch while racing. I think that's a very personnel preference type of thing. Nora for example will very often look, although she mostly focuses on distance. Many will look at HR - making sure they never go too high (I prefer going by perceived effort...but I do have a lot of experience). Pace I wouldn't look - it depends a lot on the trail.
The two main thing I monitor (beyond perceived effort) are 1) time to cutoff (or time to the pace I had set up), 2) my ability to eat. If I feel like I can't eat much anymore, I'll try to slow down until I can eat. As for cutoff, I just want to have a good buffer. If you are more ambitious and have time goal - which I sometimes do but not always - then I try to find splits from prior year runners that have a similar finishing time to what I aim. Say cutoff is 36hr, but I want 30 - I'll find a few runners like that, not their time at aid station. And now I aim for that. If I'm ahead, I might slow down to eat more.
Good luck!
@runningwithsimon I never thought of using splits from past races! Thanks for the tip!
I think the threshold you propose for when to use poles (+50mi) is for very experienced people... I'd recomend them to absolutelly anyone going into their first trail 50k... even a shorter trail race if planning to be on the back of the pack and hike the most of it or there's lots of climbs.
One of the uses I have for them is just walking fkn fast on flat jeep roads... nordic walking style. for me it would be to much of an energy expense to run some of those, but with the poles I can get 9 minute kilometers consistently.
Got a pair of Black Diamond like yours and they broke in 200 ks. I'm a big heavy guy, 90ks using the 145cm poles. What broke was the spring/bolt thing that pops up when you unfold. I can still sue them but now its shorter... I don't know what to get next.
Totally, I think the threshold depends on fitness more than experience in the sense that you see very experienced but little older runner starting to use them at shorter distance. No shame at all, it's just about finding the right balance. Just like you said, if you plan to walk some of the race, poles might be a good idea.
Sorry to hear about the black diamond poles. Have you tried asking for an exchange? That spring thingy shouldn't break after only 200k, that was a bad pair for sure - your weight or how to use them shouldn't affect that.
which quiver can you suggest for Black Diamond Z carbon if I am using ultra spire vests?
People seem to like the salmon quiver in general. Never used it myself as I was never able to get one...
@@runningwithsimon I am not sure whether it can be attached to Salomon vests only or any other vests as well. Which one are you using with your poles or are you carrying them in some othe way? Thank you for your replies and videos. Very informative channel for people who race similar stuff.
@@TrailSurfer18 I'm not using anything. I used a generic one for a couple of time but didn't really like it - it was bouncing a lot, and still needed a fair amount of work to put poles back. So I still just use my vest directly. Would love to try Salomon's some day
@@runningwithsimon good to know, thx. See you on the trails, one day.
It might be helpful to watch a Nordic ski race to observe some of the techniques. There is also a nice video of Hannes Namberger displaying what he is doing with them, but it‘s in German and what he does average people possibly cannot reproduce. When someone asks me I always answer as a rule of thumb: take care, that the point is always pointing backwards - you want to propel yourself and not brake. As for the temperature effect: aluminium gets more brittle in the cold, carbon fibre laminates are more negatively affected by heat.
Thanks for the info
Just had my first mountainous ultra in the Alps and boy am I glad I had poles.
I did struggle with getting in the calories because of the poles and have since heard of a trick if one is only using flasks for water and not the bladder in the back. Empty all your gels into the bladder of the hydration pack with a little water. This also saves on the hassel of fiddling with gel packets, it’s thereby cleaner and reduces the rubbish issue. Naturally, this will make it very hard to calculate how much calories one consumes. But I think the trade-off is still worth it.
Has anyone tried this? I'd love to know your experience with this.
I'm not sure I understand the tip. So are you pouring the content of the gels into the bladder, and dilute it with some water, to then drink it as a somewhat highly concentrated fueling?
@@runningwithsimon yes, you understood that correctly. However, I would say that the concentration of the gels with water is diluted somewhat so as to pass through the straw more easily. Apparently not all gels mix with water so we'll.
Not highly concentrated in the sense of more carbs per gramm. Just a more convenient way to consume the gels, apparently
@@NickSheppardsheppsta Curious which gels and how many you used for a good concentration. Most people would probably use something like tailwind, which is fairly good calories / mL, and you can easily make new one mid-race if you don't like what they have at aid station. But maybe there's advantages to using gels as the base.
@@runningwithsimon yes, tailwind does make sense in this regard. I haven't tried tailwind yet, but hear great things. Personally I don't like the sloshing of watery liquid in the bladder, hence the gels. The youtuber Chris Brance did this trick for Ultratrail Snowdownia, but he didn't mention how many gels he squeezed into bladder sorry. Another downside for really long ultras would be taste fatigue I guess.
I haven't tried this trick, thus my reason for my query.
Without my poles I would still be at the top of a Dorset cliff.. It was the only time I got them out all race but for that 15 mins they were essential 🎉
Oh I didn’t know those Cliff and had me google! That’s pretty
@@runningwithsimon Dorset is beautiful but running on shingle (there is a 2 mile stretch in one race) is..... Not fun!!!!
Mega Man X?! Dang, that took me back
I thought I'd get bored by it but nah, still love it!
Another great video! I had to do a double take on your "double fisting" technique. 😂😂 I've had a few races saved but poles. I prefer not using them, but when needed, they're worth their weight in gold.
Same - I try to use them as little as possible (especially lately with my elbow thingy), but often it's really the best and smartest thing to do.
Not showing the proper use of straps? Makes a huge difference.
MSR makes a carbon fiber tri-fold expedition pole so there is at least some carbon fiber out there that can handle extreme cold. They are also adjustable, which is nice. I just wish they had a “racing” handle version instead of the normal hiking to be a bit less bulky. They are thicker carbon fiber and I have put them through the wringer, yet to have one fail or hear of one breaking. I am sure it happens but they are very robust.
"Media offline" 😀
I know! It's annoying me! It's an odd bug in rendering the video - you'd see this if one of the underlying video wasn't available, but that would crash rendering. AND there were no missing clips - it's a mystery...
They really let you run down hill safely. Almost let you float down.
If you are floating or flying... watch out for the landing ;)
tinfoil hat time 💫
It's good protection against Nargles!
😂