Why not to punish warning signs - when using Positive Reinforcement methods to train dogs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2021
- This short video goes over why a trainer who uses Positive Reinforcement methods for an emotional and behavioral modification plan would avoid using intentional punishment in response to a dog’s warning signs, undesirable behavior or when the dog goes over-threshold. “Don’t punish a growl” is common knowledge in a lot of dog training communities, as the problem with that is the dog can possibly start to hide their warning signs and might skip to the next step such as biting, without communicating discomfort beforehand in the future. Emily expands this concept to other behaviors that signal the dog is getting stressed or going over threshold when using counter conditioning or training a dog an alternate appropriate behavior. Emily also discusses what would be done instead, which is to cue the dog to do a highly trained alternate behavior such as a recall or leave it that has been trained and conditioned using Positive Reinforcement.
Here is a link to training 10 interrupter cues using Positive Reinforcement:
• STOP unwanted behavior...
That being said, the learner is the one who decides what is punishing. So it’s important that the trainer is able to know how to properly reinforce, condition and use the interrupter behaviors so they don’t end up inadvertently turning into punishers, as well as to be able to read the dog’s body language to see how they respond to the cues and constantly monitor to see what affect they have on the dog, and adjust training accordingly. The goal of the training plan is to avoid the animal rehearsing the undesirable behaviors as much as possible as a new behavior and emotional response is being conditioned. So if the warning signs and undesirable behaviors continue to happen I suggest drastically rethinking the training set up. I suggest if you notice something undesirable happens 3 times within the training session, it’s time to stop and rethink the training plan and how the environment is set up.
This is such an important video! People don't realize that by punishing and suppressing the dog's warning signals you're making a dog more dangerous, not less.
Depending on the dog of course, there are some dogs that just have a high thresholds, and others that have extremely low thresholds already... and very little warning signs...
Love that line - ‘behaviours that are rehearsed are more likely to be repeated’. This for me is the crux of the matter - prevention makes such a difference because the less my dog had the opportunity to bark at the fence for example the less she did it. We stopped giving her the opportunity to be alone near the fence and subsequently bark and secondly, when she was, me made sure we were with her - and gave her the alternative behaviour (we do a spin or a twist) and now she is fine and no longer barks at our fence - even if we aren’t right by her side!
Oh that's wonderful! Well done! It is a lot of work to manage a dog so some people just open the door and stay inside the house and pretend they dont hear anything until the problem becomes really bad and then it takes a lot of training to undo.
Love that we ate foing that with wildlife but its been hard wjen in the middle of a public place. Its been since covid so we are training. Sometimes we have to be better investigators why its happening. Blessings
Embrace the warning signs; they're your friend!
Outstanding explanation. The first two sentences of paragraph two in the description are gold.
This was a great explanation! “Interrupt as soon as possible” and re-direct to a desired behavior really resonated with me, and a good reminder for my GSD who is so vocal when doorbell is pressed.
Yes, this is what resonated with me ... know the warning signs and interrupt-redirect. Great info!!
I go by how dogs naturally communicate and strive to change the emotional response as well
She giving ♥️s as treats for positive reinforcement and continue commenting and liking behaviours!! 🤣🤣
yes :)
@@kikopup hehhehe
What you've shared here is so important and true! I work at a doggy daycare and we maintain safer levels of play by watching for the warning signs and using positive reinforcement. We have fewer incidents and happier dogs when we make sure to advocate for and protect dogs who are displaying signs of discomfort. Dogs have so many different play styles and energies, it's not that there's always a "good" and "bad" dog when two dogs don't get along. Positive reinforcement for both dogs works out really well, even when one really really wishes the other wanted to play! I've noticed that the daycare workers who keep a close eye on the more anxious dogs, making sure to redirect the big players and boundary ignorers, have much better results than the workers who use negative reinforcement or wait until big signs like growling and teeth showing are happening. All this is to say, this truth you've shared really shines brightly for me, so thank you Kikopup for spreading it far and wide!!!
Oh thats so cool that the keep an eye out. That would be a great video on youtube
Thank you so much for this explanation! It's really important to let the dog have normal communication instead of stripping it from them!
Underrated! Thank you for sharing this
So glad you did this one. My mini Aussie growls a lot. Other people are constantly correcting her calling her bad names, slapping etc. (family) I can now defend her!!! I’m the only one that can remove a toy or food bowl from her without getting nipped. Thanks for the link.
Awe. Yes its just behavior. If you want to share this resource guarding protocol with them dogmantics.com/resource-guarding-protocol/ It might help?
If we agree a dog behavior is largely governed by a scale of motivators, much like our own ( I am more motivated to drive the speed limit then to get a speeding ticket then I am to be on time for an appointment ) it can be very difficult to get the dog to listen to a command once the trigger has happened. If you can anticipate the undesired behavior and ask your dog for the trained behavior before a negative response occurs you will make faster progress.
yes that is the idea of staying under threshold and interrupting the precursors to the warning signs. If the conditioned response you trained is stronger than the response to the trigger though you can get the dog to respond. So if they dont respond its just information about the conditioning. Sometimes I believe though that the behavior is respondent and not motivated like when we startle when chronically stressed at a toaster popping or someone might scream in a horror movie when the person jumps out of the cupboard to murder someone. Sure the behaviors can become learned but sometimes its easy to see a learned behavior versus a dog being startled or the behavioral side effects of fear etc.
Aaaah, I needed this one. Thank you!!
Great information as usual! Thanks! :)
Thanks for this reminder.
Amazing information. Thank you for sharing.
I can't believe I missed this gem of a video. Great content very educational
Great information! Thank u 💕
Another great video! Thanks. You are such a great trainer and have had such a positive influence on so many people. Don't doubt that.
Great video, Emily!
You are awesome!!
Great video. The only feedback I have is that I am hard of hearing so it is unfortunate that the closed captions are unavailable.
Would love to see a video on dog reactivity and what to say and do after (treat or not after they stop and come?) (leash aggression/resource guarding ANYTHING outside!) i never know what to say or do when she does this. She is reactive/dog selective/ guards even poop! It would be awesome if ever possible to make this kind of video!:)
Yes yes yes
For me, I suggest that if the dog did a super hard recall and you are impressed say the guarded something but dropped it and came I would just reinforce it heavily and then make a plan that you do at least 4 training sessions on the same thing, rather than let the dog get into the same situation where you have to do a very difficult interruption and then feel like you need to reinforce it to keep it from going extinct. I am working on a short video of the protocol I use at the moment because I keep thinking Im going to make this long video but im sooo darned picky that it never happens so I will make a short version first to at least have something out there. dogmantics.com/protocol-for-emotional-and-behavioral-modification/
Here is an example of what to do where are you are not punishing the dog.m.th-cam.com/video/tdFK5rGbjJ0/w-d-xo.html
@@kikopup awesome thanks!:)
Yes! This is my biggest red flag for dog trainers- if you think behaviors come out of nowhere you aren’t paying enough attention. Long before a dog bites, there are so many close calls and warning signs. I just ended up with a family members dog who bit somebody and it makes me so mad that she was put into situations over and over where they laughed off her fear. She’s one of the most loving and non confrontational dogs but unfortunately she got backed into a corner and couldn’t get away from somebody who was a stranger to her. People who punish behaviors but don’t resolve the conflict that causes it make more reactive dogs. Rehabbing this dog is a lot. She’s scared of everything and wants to hide whenever she can’t be cuddled. It makes me so sad to see how punishment based training ruins a dogs confidence.
Sometimes people have the best intentions. They have no idea about corners and leaning over dogs :(
@@kikopup especially strangers’ dogs! I can’t imagine walking up to somebody’s (growling and cowering) dog trying to touch her. apparently she even peed herself she was so scared. Poor girl just wanted to get outta there.
I just found you this week and I am so thankful for your channel. You have revolutionized how I train my dogs and I already see my dogs responding positively. I was wondering if you would consider addressing compulsive/anxious behaviors like licking. How would you recommend interrupting the licking and a BIG question, what should I do after I have gotten him to stop licking and have his attention? My dog licks when he’s anxious and I have started making a list of environmental triggers to start counterconditioning and will work on teaching “place” or having him have a calm place to relax. I am also starting to “capture the calmness” so he knows what I do want. All of this thanks to you!
I suggest working on leave it trained with positive reinforcement th-cam.com/video/6jYfKK17ZBs/w-d-xo.html but just make sure to keep working on the cue in training sessions so it is reinforced. Then when the dog starts licking you can tell your dog how good he is and you can calmly pet or massage the dog if the dog likes that.
Great as always, inspiring especially as om retraining fue to covid.
I trained a dog who had long-term stayed at a rescue/doggie daycare. He was adopted out and then had a couple of people bites After he went from politely and calmly sitting to biting me in the face with absolutely zero warning signals (this was a good 45 minutes into an all positive reinforcement session with friendly, happy behavior from him), I think I figured out what happened.
I had to do some extra research, but at the daycare, he was bullied by other dogs and it was not addressed by the staff. Larger dogs ignored all his signals and kept coming. In the chaos and deafening loudness of that building, day after day, his warning signs were trained out of him by other dogs.
The only thing he could do to make them leave him alone was bite. So anytime he got remotely uncomfortable, he bit. Knowing this in advance would have been great, but I don't blame him. I've been working with dogs for over a decade and that was the first one I'd met who didn't even stiffen up first. No side eye, no change in mouth, no look away or lip licking...nothing. Relaxed to face bite.
Just a reminder to watch your dog around other dogs as well. Make sure you keep your pup out of situations where s/he can't do anything to stop a "threat."
Awe. That must have been quite a traumatic experience for you. I hope it wasn't too serious a bite.
@@kikopup up through the inside lip, so no noticeable scarring. Getting bit is a risk of the job. I just try to minimize that risk. :) It's the only time I've been bit by a client's dog, so I'm good with that. Thank you for educating people in the safest and happiest ways to train their dogs.
Any suggestion for reactivity barking in my yard when neighbor dogs come out barking and hit the fence. I have used recalls with positive reinforcement and my dogs will come back now immediately after barking without the recall. BUT since I can't control WHEN the other dogs will come out barking and am not able to be there at all times, the reactivity response is getting more intense. IN the beginning I only let them out when I was present to train. Thank you for your always informative videos❤
Have you tried recording the neighbor's dog barking and lugging and hitting the fence and see if the sound coming from your phone triggers your dog in the same way ... if it does you can use that as a training tool to trigger the response to train against.
You might also be able to work with your neighbor - ask them for their help during a training session, letting their dogs out repeatedly during your training session so you can counter-condition. (Of course, this depends on your neighbor and your relationship with them, but lots of people respond positively when you ask them for their help.)
Teach your dog boundaries ! What he/ she can and can’t do!
The shutting off of warning signs (inapproptiately) reminds me of the same reason horses "explode" in the horse industry. A perfectly "calm" horse suddenly seems to freak out, out of nowhere. But instead the horse has been so thoroughly punished for warning signs of discomfort (being spooky, skiddish, moving away snorting, stomping, head lifting, giving a "kick threat" where the leg is raised without kicking, etc) that the horse no longer exhibits the warning signs. Thus the animal really becomes more dangerous because you never know when they are becoming uncomfortable because they don't say "I'm not ok" until they are nearly at/over threshold.
If I'm honest, I REALLY struggle with this. Especially when my dog goes from chill to over-threshold immediately. For example, when somebody walks down the path next to the house - he goes immediately to the point of charging and barking. It's hard not to say "no" in this situation. There just aren't warning signs because the person just showed up. When I try to distract him with another behaviour or treat, he just doesn't hear it / ignores it - he's already past the threshold of listening. Beyond that, it's not very practical to eliminate access to that part of the yard. I could leash him (won't stop him from noticing people but will keep him close enough for me to interrupt faster)... Or?
To be clear, I absolutely agree with you that this method is a better way of dealing with a dog. I'm just not sure how to put it into practice. Specifically when there are people/dogs on the other side of that fence!
Yes you are right, your dog is too over threshold to learn, the problem with saying no after the dog does the behavior is that he's most likely having an emotion and startle to the person showing up, similar to someone jumping if a toaster pops, yelling at them for startling wont get rid of the problem they might keep startling. In your dogs case, I suggest you try some sort of management, block off that area, with a gate, or have the dog on a long line when out. If you wanted to cahnge the behavior you could set up training sessions, and have a friend of yours walk back and forth and you mark and reinforce your dog. You could even add the cue "leave it" so people walking become the cue to leave it. If you have a friend with a dog you could do the same exercise, if you dont you could begin by someone just jingling keys to pretend its a dog collar, or making a panting sound before they pass. Doing this 10-12 times for 5 minutes over 2-3 weeks will make a world of difference in the dogs behavior toward people passing by. Sorry you are having that trouble.
@@kikopup Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I think I will ask a friend to walk back and forth along the fence, while marking good behaviour and cueing a "nevermind that." Do a little de-sensitization / counter-conditioning. Just need to find someone willing to help out. :) I like the idea of showing him a different way of behaving if he gets startled by a person walking by. He really is a sweetheart. I think a part of him just wants that person's attention!
Yo someone mentioned you on reddit and this is the first video i saw. Subbed due to the fact that you summarize exactly how i feel i wanna act around my dog. Im a big fan of Cesar Milan, but his methods is too demanting on most people to have succes, and not all wanna be Alpha, some wanna be taken care of. You hit that sweet spot with positive reinforcement and overall let the dog be dog.
Before I got Nezha, who is my very first dog, I was absolutely pooping bricks that I was unwittingly gonna mess him up, or let him down by not being able to train him properly, and a million-and-one things that could go wrong in training him popped into my head.
Now he's 9 months old, he listens well, he doesn't run off if he lays out front of the house, he walks off leash in the city and the country, he has never destroyed anything, can be home alone, never barks (but jumps all 4 feet in the air like a billy goat at the drop of a hat), etc etc etc, so clearly, it hasn't gone as terrible as I feared.
However, I still get these irrational ideas/fears now and then that I'm gonna mess it up, or he wont be having a good enough life with me etc, is that normal? I mean, do you encounter that from first-time dog owners a lot, or?
If your dog is 9 months old and hasn't acted extremely fearful reactive or aggressive... if something bad happens in the future, most likely your dog will bounce back where dogs who had a troubled puppy hood and adolescence might regress to previous fears etc. I would give yourself a pat on the back and enjoy your successes! And that also your dog most likely has some great genetics so won't be easy to mess up :)
@@kikopup Thank you, that means a lot :) And you're right, he's been a great little guy from the start, and a sheltie, so inherently isn't easy to mess up, hehe, but the fear of doing so is irrational I think, beacuse it's my first dog, so a lot of unknowns going into it.
There are a few short videos of him on my channel, for those interested :P
I did use your "come away from distractions" video a lot though, as he is extremely fond of other dogs, and had a problem of running to them without permission
So my dog is 11 months old and I’ve been working with him since eight weeks old
he’s a very hyper wound up out of control border Collie and he loves everybody he’s not afraid of anything and all he wants to do is pull to everyone I have used several methods like the no pull harness and he does not work also go to bed or mat and he does great for a short time , cookies on bed like a pez. As soon as he says he’s done he’s up. can I ask what you would suggest next ? I have owned Collies all my life never seen one like this one
I suggest that you work on saying hi as a greeting and just keep repeating and repeating the exercise with people hes not excited to say hi to like when your family and friends have been home for hours. Then move on to more and more exciting situations. th-cam.com/video/PEiACncIkVg/w-d-xo.html this video goes over teaching a greeting as a behavior
@@kikopup Thank you but I live alone but will. I have a very good class I am going to but he is still crazy even at 10 feet away.. Do you know what DTM is? I use food to turn him from the person and reward when he turns to me. I will go look at the you tube you sent. THANK YOU.
my malnois pulls on the leash really hard sometimes and he also whines when my girl and her dog get too far from us during s walk he is 14 weeks
Was 4th, now 5th. We really need your help with separation anxiety and demand barking.
ETA: ... and floor fears, and cr@p recall, and leash pulling... and the seat belt chewer. Oh, please help.
I have a section on floor surfaces in this service dog training video the link begins play in the middle of the video where the info appears that is for you th-cam.com/video/SIfjRt_0jqU/w-d-xo.html
Kikopup has videos up on both separation anxiety, demand barking, recalls, and lots of great videos on leash pulling.
Seat belt chewing I admit is one I haven't heard before. Does the dog have anxiety about car rides to begin with? Are they restrained, if so how? Do they get car sick? Have you tried given them something else, like an antler/bully stick, stuffed Kong, chew toy etc. in the car? Have you tried a little bitter apple spray on the seatbelt?
@@imzadi83fanvids7 ,
I’ve watched most of Emily’s YT videos, and have been hoping she’d help the anxious, demanding dog IRL. The dog can’t/won’t act like Wish, or Halo.
We’ve noticed that she objects to my sitting outside and barks about that. She also shoots/flicks balls out of her reach and then barks for me to get them.
I’ve called other local trainers, and was disappointed to find that one “positive only trainer” was associated with a group that uses e collars and sessions without the owners.
Another only seemed interested in session packages (over $2k for 10).
Essentially, *we* humans need to be trained to help our challenging dogs.
The chewer is 8 months old. Chewing phase two just started. She loves to go for car rides. She’s not restrained because she chewed the hammock straps off. I don’t belt her in. The older dog also loves car rides, and sleeps through them. Puppy sleeps shotgun on the highway, and chews when I’m not able to see her doing it. She also chewed through every leash and my car mask while I was at an appointment last week. I’m sad to say I heard the protests from her elder and ignored them because I thought she was protesting the presence of the pup, not the destruction of her favourite leash. (sigh)
ETA: Yes, I’ve given them both bully sticks. The puppy ignores them and chews. Thank you for reminding me about bitter apple. I’ll try that on the remaining seat belts. She’s a pica with a high drive for 💩, but she rejects honey crisps, so there’s hope.
@@beachgirl4583 Consider muzzle training! If you introduce it correctly (Kikopup has a video on this as well), a well fitted, humane muzzle can be a lifesaver, especially for dogs with pica. For chewing stuff inside the house, really try to put everything away/up high to reduce the risk of her getting to it.
@@emmamemma4162 ,
Thank you, but I’m not a newby. I put everything important/fragile/dangerous out of her reach before we picked her up.
She’s only alone in the car, but not really alone, because the Lab is always with me.
I don’t think a muzzle will be effective. She’s the car thief deterrent. I need people to see her un-muzzled, shiny big teeth, as the Lab just sleeps in the back seat.
The leashes are now being stored in the trunk.
She doesn’t get to stuff in the house, unless I give something to her, like the center of a paper 🧻 roll, or an empty water bottle (good for 15 minutes of fun). She’s more of a coprophage than a pica. She’s not into eating rocks or dirt- just struggling small plants, grass, and 💩. They’re both on Forbid maintenance for the 💩 eating. 🤢
What to do if the puppy keeps being over excited and does not respond to interrupting noises
Literally first
My biggest trouble is my dog barking at the door or new people coming into the house, I'm not sure what the best way to approach this is. I don't know if can change that "environment".
One way to change the picture is to ask the person to call have them meet you outside then you follow them into your house with the dog on a leash. Also you can rehearse what you do want your dog to do in multiple training sessions using people your dog knows, th-cam.com/video/bpzvqN9JNUA/w-d-xo.html this video goes over it a bit.
Thank you very much for the tip, I will try it asap! I'll be sure to watch the video as well :)
Kikopup has a video on barking at the door: th-cam.com/video/bpzvqN9JNUA/w-d-xo.html This talks about desensitizatiing your dog to people at the door. You could also teach the dog a quiet cue, if you still want the dog to alert you to someone at the dog. Get another friend or family member to help you, that way they can knock on the door and you can just ignore it until the dog calms down. Dog barks, you sit back down and don't answer the door. Do this enough and the dog will be bored with the doorbell/knock etc. because nothing exciting happens most of the time.
As far as new people tell your guests not to approach the dog, let the dog approach them. You can have willing people throw some treats past the dog to help the dog associates new people coming in with something positive happening. Depending on your dog this may need to happen with the dog behind a baby gate so it feels secure. If you think even this would be too much for your dog put it behind the gate and you give it something yummy (like a stuffed Kong or bully stick) that it can enjoy while guests are over. Only give this special treat only when new people come over and your dog is likely soon to learn that new people coming over is a good thing.
I was raised in a household were spanking was okay. I hate it. I love my dog so much and it breaks my heart every time. I’ve had my dog for 9 months. He just turned a year old and he’s started to act scared after doing things like potty in the house when I’m gone. I think he may do this due to anxiety because he is potty trained. I think his fear is a result of previous spankings and I want to reverse this! I don’t want him to be scared. I need help. Please give me some advice on how to fix this.
Is it ever too late to start training this method? My dog is pretty good but I think he would really thrive under this method. He is 8 years old.
Hi i have a question do your bc dogs when they were puppies and played with toys. Were they barking while playing??
Mine is barking so loud? Is this a problem?
Not if you don't mind lots of barking. My terrier likes to bark and growl a lot when he plays. The only problem is if they bark from frustration if they dont have the toy that your holding etc and then I would work on calmness and impulse control games around things they want so they dont get frustrated.
@@kikopup thank you so much i’ll try calmness and impulse control games more 😀😀
what to do if my 20 weeks old puppy start get over excited after playing than go humping his toys should I interrupt that, or should I let him grow out of it?
Alert barking fall under this? I don't want my dog disturbing my neighbours with barking but I can't control when they're in their backyards.
The punishment from these corrective trainers is very likely why we see “tHe dOg BiT tHeM oUt oF nOwHeRe”. Especially in the “aggressive” breeds where I consistently see them being trained with corrective tactics utilizing punishment.
Yesh agreed as i dee the positive one ate mishy baboes that kiss you to death, lol
Positive reinforcement trains dogs to have bad habits and have shown to result in dangerous situations.