Tier List of Civ 3 Game Mechanics
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- Criteria:
1) Accessibility and intuitiveness: How easy is it for new players to learn and experienced players to remember?
2) Fun: How fun is the system to interact with
3) Effectiveness: How well does the mechanic work do its job, creating depth without messing with the balance of the game or causing problems
(The last one is the most important of the bunch)
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Jesus I really kicked the beehive with the palace building ranking. I thought it would be bad but I didn't think it would be this bad
you literally put pollution above the palace, suede i'll secretly mod your game to give you a pollution trigger in every city when a palace triggers
Your punishment is to be thrown into the palace dungeon.
@@nathangamble125 Good think I didn't build the palace dungeon 😏
Palace mini game = S-tier
Huge agree
i love mixing and matching. Ive actually made an amazing euro/asian with mid east accents palace that looks dope as f
Throwing shade at Suede! Nice!
@@fundip12
swedish government officials be like:
S++ TIER!
When i was a kid the palace building feature was literally the only thing i cared about
Yeah it's great if you're 12
@@suedeciviii7142 Im mentally 13 and i like it XD
@@suedeciviii714212 year old me made DOPE palaces thank you very much
When i was a a kid and you got a palace build in civ 1 you knew because you had to "insert disk 3"
@@xXSirKRXx Wish I could be at your level, Im mentally 10 and I love the mechanic, I spend more time thinking how to improve my bloody palace and anything else probably, hahah😂
SUEDE, YOU SHALL BE PUNISHED BY HAVING A GAME IN WHICH THE WIN CONDITION IS: "COMPLETE THE PALACE"
AMEN! You win condition is complete the palace mini game. NO LOOKING UP THE TRIGGERS!!!!
Open Trading is A tier at most, it takes like 10 minutes each turn to check which AI has which tech or gold, then find out wether they want 80 or 82 gold, etc. There is so much trivial room for improvement in this mechanic.
There's a utility program on civfanatics called CrpMapStat. I first used it years ago, still use it today, and highly recommend it.
Some sort of diplomatic spreadsheet would be nice.
It takes like 2 minutes at most cmon dude
@@lotmyle5465 the diplomatic advisor could have been a list with all the AI, not just 8. Then there's a list with all the information you get from contacting them, such as available techs, gold, resources. Information is disabled of course when you are at war and they don't want to talk.
There is no way none of the developers or test players came up with this idea.
Regarding the palace mini game - I remember playing civ1 as a kid and always not upgrading the palace entrance, so I had the cave entrance to the giant palace, making it look ridiculous 😂
That being said I think the palace mini game is for us who also liked the view city feature. Remember going specifically for wonders which looked nice 😅
Ashamed to admit that this included the oracle for me 🤪
View city feature was legitimately cool (And one that doesn't trigger annoying pop-ups). Sad they didn't add the Conquests Expansion buildings and wonders.
Another part of civ1 i loved!
Anyone remember the colossus just being the base and 2 legs, shin down
Palace mini game by YOUR OWN CRITERIA:
1) Given a pop-up by the game when eligible, or accessible at any time. Extremely intuitive to new players as you simply select style and build.
2) Extremely fun to watch the center of your civilization evolve and grow over time as a single-screen representation of your progress.
3) No problems with other game mechanics or throwing off the balance of the game, creates depth of character with no downsides.
I've seen enough, further opinions rejected. Suede, all you're good for now in my eyes is meme thumbnails
Edit: Also agree, the only good thing about SGLs is the slight dopamine hit when you see the text as they appear lol
A note on the thing with anarchy were it cycles through all the city disorders (12:30):
If you quickly double click on a disordering city before it cycles to the next one, you go into the city management screen. From there, you can use the arrows at the top to cycle through all you cities and change their citizens so they wont disorder.
This way only your capital will disorder. Means you get to keep growth for that turn for the rest of the cities, and is just less annoying in general lol
Ahoy there Suede.Thanks for not giving up on uploads despite remaining a niche channel!
palace mini game in F-Tier is crazy
"We're going to start off by dumping the 'Palace Mini Game' in F-tier."
I have not seen that method for declaring war.
I'm a complete casual who last played this game as a kid. Learned so much here, thank you for the video!
One well-known tactic consists of having some AI with a unit in your territory. Then you make silly demands that the AI won't accept. Until their leader becomes Furious. Then tell them to "leave or declare" (you also payed gpt for gold or technology before this). Then the AI declares war on you (if you are not too strong according to the military advisor). That happens, because of the AI attitude.
AI attitude also affects declaration of war probability if you fail to steal a technology... or I guess if your spy gets caught while doing espionage or trying to get planted.
If you play above 'least aggressive', AI opinion changes what the AI will give you at most for something. I don't know those details, but found out something like that with debug mode before. Let me see... I put details in the "My 80k game journal" thread by Moonsinger over at the HoF subforum of civfanatics.
Thanks for the tip!
@@suedeciviii7142 You're welcome.
Isn't it a treat that we can still learn new things about the mechanics of this game after all these years? I'll be playing Civ 3 to the end my days.@@suedeciviii7142
your opening joke was 🔥 💯 🔥. Typically I don't write comments on such videos but man you deserve this one
Suede you're civ 3 content is always so good, thanks for doing the Lord's work
The mechanic that brought me back to the game is the tiles improvement system. I enjoy its simplicity and flexibility.
After learning how to trade, I think that's gotta be one of my fav parts of the game, especially in the early and midgame. Culture flips as worst. The issue of cities flipping back & forth multiple times in a conquest eating up units every time is a massive pain.
I don't know specifically how trading is implemented in any of the other civ games, but if they have major restrictions on how you can trade with the others, then that just doesn't sit right with me. The moments in civ 3 where you're behind in tech, but say you manage to research some valuable tech and have the monopoly on it, and explode forward with intricate trades with all the empires to catch up on all your missing techs. That, or even selling an arm and a leg to nab a tech from someone with a tech lead, then pawning it off to the others to keep pace. Feels like a very natural way to do trade with others and allows for very interesting plays surrounding trade. I suppose tech trading isn't the most natural thing, since knowledge tends to spread around the world organically, and you'd have a hard time monopolizing the concept of, say, physics. But as a mechanic, it's very fun imo, and allows you to play from behind or really reap the benefits of having a tech lead
As for the palace mini game discourse, I'll just say that although I used to swear by it and play it every time, it's been a hot minute since I last touched it. Quirky little thing for new players to mess around with that kind of gives you a break from the game and symbolizes your humble beginnings contrasted with your glorious late-game empire with an intricate palace, but it loses its novelty the more you play. I still like that's it's there, just maybe it'd be nice to disable it.
The Tech trading mechanic is what fundamentally sets apart Civ3 from it's successors my opinion. It just makes sense that Civilizations would boost eachother's technological advancements and it helps to simulate the real world a lot better.
Putting palace minigame in F-tier is unforgivable 😤
you could fix the problems with despotism penalty easily, just show the tile yields as they would be without the penalty, add an additional window into the city overview called "government bonus". there you could add either bonus commerce from republic or despotism penalty as corruption/waste, and then a tooltip or reference to the ingame wiki could explain whats happening.
the good concept behind despotism penalty is not only the equalizer of starting conditions, but also kind of simulating how with better technology improvement priorities change. its one of the best things they tried in civ 4 too, tough civ 4 is way too reliant on cottages for money and slavery/whipping for production and large overhauls of improvements in late game happened rather rarely, usually just replacing mines with windmills
If you don't use every style when building your palace, you are doing it wrong
my favorite is that spamming cities near the border of the Civs in the game.
also, crossing over the Civ's border and build a City in the back of other Civ.
P.S. I am developing a Civ like video game as a developer.
Civ III's civilization bonuses are generic enough that you can pick up any civ and not be shocked by the mechanics, but special enough to give variety to play style. Civ III is one of the best in this respect, similar to the civs in Age of Empires II, especially before Definitive Edition. It's not that each civ is relatively cookie cutter, but rather that bonuses synergise - or work against each other - in Civ III enough to make learning easy but mastering them hard.
Civ III is generally pretty balanced all around and not too grandiose. It's a shame you can only play it on PC, as I would kill for a PC-style Civ III on Android.
Hey, I am replaying all Civs starting from Civ1 but in a way that I want to get a bit deeper with game knowledge and complete every game few times on at least no AI nor player handicaps difficulty. This means spending at least 100h on every game just because every Civ game is fun.
I started with Civ3 recently and man I was so destroyed on Warlord difficulty. All the habits from Civ1 and Civ2 made Civ3 so annoying to play. But with time I managed to learn a bit and secure a victory after 5 defeats on Warlord. The learning curve of this game is so amazing but because of that it can be frustrating a lot.
Then I discovered your guides that confirm that this game is really really good and I still have much to learn about it, thanks :)
"Corruption is good"(c) -Tyber Zann- Suede
I love the movement system of Civ 3. The offset grid pattern is perfect even if it is a little wonky getting more vision alternating North then east for example rather than straight North east. I agree, railroads are OP but it'd a fun mechanic at least, 10 tiles on railroads is much more balanced like in Civ 4. Combat is perfect even if RNG can be frustrating. I like the promotion/bonus system of Civ 4, but those interactions get very complicated. Civ 3 is elegantly simple, but the factors that do affect defensive odds make sense
SGLs are great in theory but not implemented correctly. Building a great wonder is too OP, RNG for building one is *too* random (at least with MGLs there's far more opportunities to roll the odds), something like a points system to work towards like civ 4 makes more sense, 2 pt for researching a tech yourself, 1 for trading for it, 5 if you are first one to it, etc. A boost to science would be nice if it worked correctly, or allowing to automatically finish a tech would make more sense thematically. The fun thing about a bonus like this is having to choose between tech now or more techs long term or any building or small wonder wherever
Hexes are great but offset grid works great too, once you learn the ins and outs.
"Building a great wonder is too OP, RNG for building one is too random (at least with MGLs there's far more opportunities to roll the odds)"
Well, I think you're talking about the Conquests expansion here.
The original version and Play The World had military great leaders with the ability to rush great wonders.
Also, the C3X mod has a feature which enables scientific great leaders to trigger a scientific golden age.
@@suedeciviii7142tell me more about civ X that limits movement to 10 on railroads
Your point about anarchy triggering you to look it in EVERY city on EVERY turn when you have it is annoying is so spot on
Hmm?
When I was first playing I enjoyed the palace mechanic but now it’s annoying that you can’t turn off it popping up at least. When I was a child I thought as a child but now I’m a man
I personally love the palace minigame but I'm a very casual player, I understand it being an inconvenience for hardcore or competitive players.
One gripe I have with it is the asymmetrical building of walls, hurts my ocd
Totally agree about corruption. Great mechanic, especially compared with civ 4 and 5's analogous mechanics, but a bit of a shame that it's somewhat unintuitive
I would enjoy the palace mini game if it could be toggled on/off so I could mess with it when logging off instead of being pestered by it during actual game play.
I didn't know CivIII was still so popular judging by the number of comments
You have also forgotten canal cities "mechanic" and submarine sneak attack and ocean sinking and also boat chaining to move units
unit capturing? rushing? chopping?
ESPIONAGE??? LIKE THE WHOLE SCREEN SUEDE???
Canals was massive oversight. everything else, no strong opinions
Im glad that people still show interest in this game. This is an awesome video. But how could you massacre my boy the palace mini game like that.
Seriously though, I used to love the palace mini-game as a kid. For me, there’s too much nostalgia there for it to be bottom tier
_Someone's mad his people don't ask him to expand his palace..._
*Bet. Ratioed.*
lolol this was the best comment
Counterpoint about Pollution - In Civ 5 since Roads/Railroads cost GPT to maintain you don't want them on all tiles, so you have a lot less things to do with workers in the late game, especially if you're playing peacefully. When Uranium is discovered you improve it and then you can basically disband all your workers. But then it feels bad if you need 1. So you just end up AFKing them like 1 per city, but it feels bad since they also cost GPT to maintain. Civ 5 really suffers from the lack of 'free maintenance' on non combat units & it only scales up the price per era, so a worker that cost you 1/2 gpt in the medieval era costs you 4/5 in the Atomic/Information era so they feel so bad to have.
That’s the idea though…you need to balance how many units you have. To me I like it
I’m a civ 3 and civ 5 lover
@@Frilleon _"you need to balance how many units you have"_
My workers: *Finish improving that last Uranium tile / final forest chops 5/6 tiles away from city*
Me: *Disband, disband, disband, disband.* *_Perfectly balanced as all things should be._*
There can be no "unit management balance" if the optimal play is to simply not have the unit & thus making it the optimal play to delete every obsolete unit. And sadly it's the same for scouts, unused settlers and the few warriors / spearmen post lets say the Modern era.
The problem I have with units in Civ 5 is as I wrote - there are no 'free to maintain' units. Why do missionaries cost gold to maintain for example? All this does is penalize players who spawned with the luxuries that just give you less gold.
In Civ 3 the same worker you had in the Ancient era digging roads & making farms is still digging railroads, cleaning pollution & making every tile into a fort in the information era.
@@guest273 use them or lose them (or pay for them)
@@Frilleon *Use them and then lose them (to not pay for them).
@@guest273You need them if you end up in a war to repair tiles
Palace mini game in F-tier??? Unsubbed, blocked, deleted youtube, threw phone in toilet.
Despotism Penalty does suck glad we are in agreement
The standard tile penalty works very effectively for intelligent players who are not lazy. Note that the AIs will not irrigate mined tiles, nor mine irrigated tiles ever. Consequently, they will do things like irrigating grassland in despotism. But, the human player can control workers and rework tiles. Thus, the human player has more of an advantage with workers when both their empire and AI empires are in despotism. At higher levels, the AIs would expand more quickly without the standard tile penalty. So, the standard tile penalty gives intelligent human players an advantage since they can manage workers better, and also limits AI expansion (which can matter when they have a free settler or two).
The standard tile penalty also applies to Anarchy. That encourages that people don't revolt much and plan more with respect to their governments.
so many comments defending the palace builder. as there should be. nature is healing
Starts with putting palace in F tier
Absolute trash, reported to police
1:51 This is why I like archipelago maps (esp low ocean with high civ count) - you get 5-8 large islands with 1-2 resources each. Makes for nice trading opportunities, or excuses for military outposts.
Agreed. I just wish luxuries could spawn on smaller islands too
How could you say that about the palace builder D:
Palace mini game should be S+ tier mechanic😁
I get it, F tier must mean F for first class.
The one that always pissed me off was the option to loan gold. It could be cool but I’ve never got it to work
I remember switching from Civ3 to Europa Univasalis 2 back in the day and played that series for many years to come. While I enjoy the quirks of Civ3, judging by your comments on balance and features you sound a lot like a player who would enjoy EU4. I understand that it would be difficult putting out videos with same knowledge depth you have on Civ3, but it would be interesting to learn your thoughts when playing such a game. Maybe you could have a smaller second channel for such videos. But I guess there is only 24 hours in one day 😅
26:10 hello time traveller, how do you like Civ 10 compared to Civ 3?
I totally agree. the Palace mini-game is a useless feature.
I just found a picture of me playing civ3 on our old computer. It was a very good game but I recall only wanting to play if I had Snoopy’s enhanced graphics, with enhanced roads. Also, corruption was such a bad mechanic, and late game eras weren’t nearly as fun as ancient and medieval eras. Playing in the modern era was a pain (pollution, pop a tank every 1 to 3 turn) that needed to be eased by finishing the game asap 😅
Nice! Thanks for sharing
Everyone complaining about you putting the palace minigame in F tier... I say, you are entitled to your opinion. I like it myself, but you're more than allowed to dislike it!
I've been stuck on emperor difficulty for like 10 years. Can you make a guide on how to beat it? I play on random everything.
This is what you're looking for. Just keep in mind you have an extra unhappy face on emperor
th-cam.com/video/YZDmlnJSVdE/w-d-xo.html
i also like how workers represent 1 population point and can join different cities
Great video. Where would you put promotions as a mechanic?
Had a lot of overlap with HP but I like them. I like that you don't need to micromanage them, unlike promotion mechanics in later games.
Fine fine bait worked. Love civ 3 even if i was better at it when i was 13 than now cause ive played it maybe 4 or 5 hours since i was little
Zamn, the despotism penalty, almost forgot that was a thing. Haven't really played Civ3 yet, but the despotism penalty existed in FreeCiv, which was my gateway. It was similarly unintuitive, but you got used to it
The rest of Civ 3's UI is pretty good so it's bearable.
Hi, just discovered the channel and been binge watching all your videos. Been playing for 15+ years and learnt a lot. Could I be cheeky and ask if you'll do a video on playing as the Russians? I've always played with them.
No cool for the palace, never knew how it worked and still have no clue today, but i certainly know that those were my greatest achievement in life
I remember airlifting workers but sometimes it just isn't possible. I don't know why or how it works.
Checking now in the editor, you can airlift workers.
I was unsure because some quality of life things like that are only in multiplayer mods.
Worst killjoy in Civ III (for me) is corruption: no government rids you of it like in Civ II is realistic BUT on a large map a major industrial city far from the capital gives 1 production- ultra unrealistic & massive killjoy.
On rails, yes 1/10 would be large advantage without turning them into wormholes.
I responded to this point of view in the video, idk if you caught it. There's definitely counterarguments against my position though
@@suedeciviii7142 I like the idea of Courthouses and Police Stations reducing corruption but they are too expensive and don't reduce corruption/waste enough. You also have to distinguish rank corruption from distance corruption. The idea that you pick up an enemy capital and now it's a productive city for you because of low rank corruption is weird. Distance corruption makes more sense.
That was brutal to the palace mini game 😂
Workers can be air lifted. Nice job as usual.
Game mechanics tier list now that is original haha
The thing I most hate about Civ III (and IV) is how unit stacking works. I wish they had kept in the system from Civ II, where if a stack of units is attacked outside of a fort or city, _all_ units in the stack die if you lose the battle.
It forces players to tactically spread out their units while fighting, without getting in the way of manoeuvring your units around at home. It makes decisions about how to balance the production of defensive and attacking units much more important, increasing strategic depth, without increasing the game's complexity. Plus, having units spread out across a wide front with varying concentrations is different places looks cooler and is more realistic than having them all in a couple of doomstacks.
More tedious to manage though. I'd rather they increase strategic depth in other ways.
I like to micromange my workers until I have every tile roaded, mined/irrigated the way i want, and railroads connects to every city so i can move between them. after that i just automate them mostly. they'll finish up the railroads, and i'll keep a few to railroad a couple important tiles earlier if it's important. usually newly conquered cities by then have most of their tiles finished anyway and/or are too corrupt or late game to truly matter how optimized everything is. If so i'll un automate a few. gotta pay attention tho cuz those workers are fearless and stupid.
I do the same with the governors. i'll micromanage my tiles early and often, and late game i'll just turn on the governor especially if i'm in/out of wars. Ill periodically check the domestic advisor and scroll through to see if there's too many entertainers and mess with the luxury slider, then reset the governor.
Both the automate workers and governor late game when most tiles are improved and being used saves hours upon hours of gametime when you care more about shuffling units and combat in specific orders.. Combined warfare done right mid industrial era - so you don't fuck up a game - you can spend 30min+ on one damn turn planning out how you can move Cav on railroads, future captured tiles/cities, and which cities are reachable by artillery or bombers and how many to save etc. If you really think long and hard and know Civ3 really well, you can capture 10 cities+ in ONE turn on a GOOD civ without the AI fighting back, even on Diety.
how could you put the palace game in f tier? every time i play i try to get my palace as large as possible. this is an atrocity
My favorite mechanic is luxury resources. Happiness and all sort of goodies possible from AIs.
My least favorite mechanic is outposts. Soooo useless, and too costly.
Um... did this video miss espionage?
Why don't you like the Palace mini-game?
1) Automatic pop-ups. You can't turn it off, it happens at some point
2) When your flipping thtrough the f keys (f5, f6) you inevitably get that screen instead of something useful
@@suedeciviii7142 and that screen is depressing to look at when its just a rock hut
SS tier: Unit stacking (over newer civ games)
Luxury resources do spawn on islands. Do they not spawn on an island below a certain size?
You should be demonetized for putting the palace mini game in F tier.
Hello @suedeciviii7142 and all,
Does anyone knows if there is a mod existing that add the combat percentage conditions in-game ?
For example, you select your warrior and drag it without release it on enemy warrior you see that you have 50% chance to win for example.
Why no discuss the 'colony' mechanic?
How can I take this tier list seriously when you put the best mechanic on the F tier. Like, come on! 😆
Maybe I was wrong about no one loving the despotism penalty
@@suedeciviii7142 I love the standard tile penalty. Why would I want the AI to have use from irrigation while in despotism? Why would I want them to have good worker moves at high levels? Why would I want *less* encouragement of players controlling their workers, when I hate players automating workers? It makes little sense to automate workers in despotism, because of the standard tile penalty. Also, why would I want empires to have the same amount of food in Anarchy as in other governments? It makes little sense that the food supply would be as good in Anarchy as in a real government, doesn't it?
@@suedeciviii7142 the despotism penalty was a big deal in Civ 1 where Despotism was the only free unit support, and explained very well in Civ 2, and after spending so much time playing those games I actually quite like the despotism penalty.
Wonder GA is simple for America. Just build The Internet! It will trigger a golden age for any civ that hasn't had a GA.
😂
@@suedeciviii7142 Also, do you know about capturing wonders? If you capture wonders with your civ traits, as soon as you build another wonder, you get a Golden Age. That's what I remember reading, but I don't think ever have triggered a GA myself that way.
#bringbackradartowers
I disagree about the despotism penalty balancing out bad against good land early on. What it actually does is making good/great land with bonus food the only way to grow your cities more quickly per turn since irrigating grasslands does nothing so you cant get a food surplus via citizens without bonus resources or floodplains.
Too much info to explain, but I did say it was good but not the most effective way to do that. Because yeah as you say, the best land is still awesome while, say, mid tier tiles plains sugar suffer just as much.
I think you can work/plan around it decently still as suede said. Knowing what the future tile is going to yield once you switch governments, and railroads in the future, you can prioritize what tiles to improve to minimize wasted worker moves.. or making irrigation paths to cities without fresh water nearby. If i know for a fact i want to irrigate a grassland tile in the future because i need the food later on, i'll skip it (or just road it) and improve a different tile that gives immediate benefit, i know won't ever change.
EX: irrigating a couple plains tiles to get 2F1P instead of mining that grassland tile to get 2F1P then being forced to switch it later on to irrigation.
or: mining that sugar plains tile i want irrigated then instead of mining a bonus grassland, i save it to be irrigated later.
The standard tile penalty does more than that. It applies to Anarchy for starters, and thus affects whether a 2nd revolution makes sense or not moreso in the favor of 'not'. Also, it applies to the AIs. But, the AIs won't rework tiles in the sense of irrigating mined tiles or mining irrigated tiles. The AIs thus end up with poorer worker moves in despotism (which are necessary) than other governments. It also means that automating workers on turn 1 or while still in Despotism ends up rather discouraged/inefficient. Overseeing a work force isn't the job of some AI, but of a real human being.
If someone is gracious and you waltz into their territory (without right of passage) with a military unit, you can claim it is merely a military exercise.
I have no idea what else the AI opinion does, other than make their faces look different.
Luxury slider is D tier to me. Just compare it to the science slider:
1) Does not interact with buildings in any meaningful way, unlike the science slider
2) Awkward 2-tier system of happy/content faces
3) Zero flavor. Like, exactly how is it turning money into happiness? The fact that its known as the luxury slider when it's called the "Entertainment slider" in the Civilopedia is telling. You can't really conceptualize what it's doing (unlike more money for scientific research, you can imagine extra researchers running more experiments). What kind of mechanism creates happiness equally over all cities? Entertainers are far more intuitive, even though they suck.
is it posible to send win games so you can comment on them ? Also realy ? palace minigame f tier ....
I hated so much corruption in giant earth maps, the city limit is so stupid and awful
Palace minigame in F tier? I don't even play 3 much, I far prefer 2 and 4 (the latter not even *having* the palace minigame, for shame) and I will shit your pants about this, Suede.
I would put both strategic and civ traits both down two tiers. Only one copy being necessary for everything felt awful and boring, it's passable but barely. Civ traits felt alright but kinda boring, its good for balance and has its perks, civ 5 and and even more civ 6 did go a bit too far, worst of both worlds, where it's both unbalanced but ultimately each civ is not really unique enough.
Doesn't AI opinion modify another civ's likelihood of attacking you? Even if relative power is probably the stronger variable, surely it's still a factor, right?
Palaces FTW
The place mini game is just cosmetics so I don't mind putting it on the bottom.
I like bombardment I just wish it didn't take so long to do and that civ 4 didn't go back to the very bad way arty was in the first two games
C3X has stack bombardment if it's bugging you a ton
Pretty sure that AI opinion factors into other's civs decision to declare war on you.
That sounds right. Although the AI has no issue war deccing you if they're polite to you.
Ok sorry dude......FRIENDSHIP ENDED!!!! PALACE MINI GAME IS THE GOAT!!!
How can say armies are fun cause they make you feel powerful but put SGL in F tier!? Insta-Wonder makes me feel SO POWERFUL!!! Fun as fuck.
grr
Despotism undermines the game. It raises the barrier to entry right out of the gate, turning off casual players. Of course someone can argue that it is just another mechanic so new players should just git gud. However, because the mechanic makes the game so much less enjoyable and makes it so much harder to understand at the start, I think it is fair for someone to just not invest their time to learn. This mechanic seriously undermines the game imo.
I agree 100%
tech trading is bad, it just snowballs the game and is not fun
roading every tile makes the map look ugly
these are two things that come to mind that the later civs improved, other than that the civ3 mechanics are actually better
i play unciv from time to time which is basically a civ5 clone for android and man, the mechanics are atrocious. the ones i hate the most are city bombards, one unit per tile and global happiness. an average game is like you build your great empire of 4 cities and then your army of 5 dudes is either turtling around your bombarding city or goes on a snails pace offensive having to heal 5 times from random enemy bombards to raze the city for 15 turns that drops you to -30 happiness while it's being razed ugh
How does it snowball things? If anything, it's a catch-up mechanic.
@@suedeciviii7142 i guess it's a catch-up against stronger civs, but you get an edge over weaker civs who didn't explore, are isolated or just have a bad econ so they can't trade anything themselves. I think it's more fun when you're weak if you're forced to fight other weak civs, get their land and become stronger that way. ofc from deity pov when there are no weak civs due to insane ai cheats unless theyre spawned on an island/in a corner where they physically can't expand you kinda have to use this mechanic to keep up, but i don't think it's a good mechanic in general.
to be fair it's not all or nothing, no tech brokering option is fair. you can trade techs you have researched fair and square but sitting at 0% research slider is countered.
3:25 AI attitude also determines the likelihood of them declaring war at you. I simply find it unbalanced and unrealistic razing cities gives permanent global +1 penalties. Razing cities as simply a result of bad locations the AI settled in, it should've temporary for like 50 turns or something
7:00 Republic really isnt miles ahead of other governents. A huge benefit of Monarchy and other non-WW govs is that you can obtain pretty much permanent war happiness if an AI declares war with you, and then you spare him in the end. With Republic you lose it after merely 15 of your units are attacked, whether they win or not. But generally even quicker bc you lose some of your attackers, workers, cities, and none of you stay in your own territory in war. And once WW hits 0, you can not gain war happiness on that specific war anymore, unless you get declared war on again after peace, which takes quite a while.
Yes, commerce bonus gives you about 60% more commerce than Monarchy, but you also have to spend a significant portion of that on trading luxuries since you dont have military police in order to make citizens content, and war happiness is not as reliable as in non-WW govs. Besides that, later in the game when your civ is far larger, Communism becomes stronger, especially when you build the Hoover Dam combined with factories in all your cities. They dont reek of corruption anymore, and can now decently build units. Also, the commerce bonus is less pronounced at that point. It may only be about 25% higher now, whereas Communism may give a 25% larger shield bonus, which is far more important. Also, on higher difficulties AI can build far more units more quickly than you, so if playing on Pangea you definitely need all the units you can get, and you can build more units cheaper on Monarchy and Communism (due to 1 unit support cost instead of 2 and higher support per town/city/metro)
I will only say that Republic may be better if you have more than sufficient happiness, and you are the strongest civ compared to whatever your goals/winning conditions are. Also, bonus commerce depends on roads which can easily bombed into oblivion in the late game, and pillaging improvs also reeks up WW
9:10 the point of the despotism penalty of the devs was indeed balancing out bad starting points
11:20 I agree the anarchy period is far too long, should have been 6 at most. Something you forgot to mention: silly too how non-religious civs on the highest difficulties get 1 turn, whereas religious ones get 2. Non-religious ones should've capped at 4
12:55 defensive bombard barely does any damage though. Just check out the combat calculator (v1.36).
17:05 culture flips are necessary though bc else culture is too unimportant. Imo the amount of units needed could be halved though. And the initial and continuing resistances are too high for having bad culture (90% and 80% initial resistance on the worst culture values, yikes!). But nothing bad with requiring some units bordering cities of other cultures. Also, you completely forgot to mention initiate propaganda, which is made far too ineffective to be ever useful, and too high in cost as well.
22:20 the problem simply is that the AI handles armies very poorly, even by C3X to my knowledge. Would be better if the amount of cities requires would've been far higher (somewhere in between 10-20)
30:40 outposts along coasts should indeed be banned, unrealistic if mountains can cause you to see 3 tiles away when 1 tile may already be 100 km wide (if going by the maximum amount of tiles compared to the size of Earth).
32:00 the agricultural trait is simply too OP though, and expansionist possibly too weak
33:30 Specialists are already pretty strong though, definitely scientists and especially engineers
Other ones I like: disasters/plagues. It brings realism since population sizes in regular games are simply too high from a historic pov. I also like espionage, even though it often is too expensive to be useful. I also like WLTKD even though it generally is too weak to justify it to get it by paying for luxuries. A flat 20% lower rank corruption and halving of distance corruption makes it pretty much only useful in cities with higher corruption, but not too high corruption. And also generally not useful on communal govs
Defensive bombard does one point of damage. If you're attacking 2 archers with your archer, it will trigger 2/3 of the time. In this case, the buff from defensive bombard if it triggers is bigger than the buff of the defender being on a hill!
Hard disagree about republic. If you have any save file where republic does worse than monarchy aside from crippling war weariness, by all means, send it to me
Traits, I wasn't evaluating how the mechanics were used. So like, if a wonder is OP, that's not the fault of the mechanic, it's a balance issue. But something like, "It's unfun when I get beaten to a wonder", or saying wonders are difficult for the devs to balance (not true IMO) is the fault of the mechanic.
An AI that could handle armies well wouldn't be disgustingly unfun to play against.
As for culture, yes, that's why I always play with flips on. Still a shit mechanic though.
"Republic really isnt miles ahead of other governents. "
The question of what ends up comparatively better *for the human player* makes for an empirical question that more-or-less has gotten tested in COTM, GOTM, and HoF competitions over the years at civfanatics. Long ago and it remains to this day, that the best finishes uses Republic much, much more often than Monarchy.
"Yes, commerce bonus gives you about 60% more commerce than Monarchy, but you also have to spend a significant portion of that on trading luxuries since you dont have military police in order to make citizens content"
Luxuries for cities with marketplaces end up leagues ahead of military police for happiness purposes. Not only is the number of citizens made content significantly greater, but marketplaces can yield happy citizens which makes for more score! Also, trading for luxuries can get done with technologies and thus can cost the human player nothing. Military police also cost shields which translates into turn time. Units come as better out fighting on the front than serving as military police, unless you play Always War and have to defend every single border city. But, even then those units work out more powerfully if they go out and conquer luxuries than sit around as military police.
"Besides that, later in the game when your civ is far larger, Communism becomes stronger, especially when you build the Hoover Dam combined with factories in all your cities. "
Though Communism yields more productivity for a large empire, the anarchy period is not worth it. It makes for lost food due to the standard tile penalty, and also lost productivity. 6 units as military police makes little sense for a human player, since they can go conquer or defend the front.
"Also, on higher difficulties AI can build far more units more quickly than you, so if playing on Pangea you definitely need all the units you can get, and you can build more units cheaper on Monarchy and Communism"
No. The build cost makes for the amount of shields needed to finish a unit. That's the same for all governments.
You also don't seem to have considered that in Republic the luxury slider ends up more powerful due to more commerce overall. And that can affect many cities, since if you have at least 12 total commerce, then you have 2 uncorrupted commerce at minimum in a Republic.
@@Spoonwood Thanks, well said
@@suedeciviii7142 According to the combat calculator v1.36:
A veteran att (2 points) has 82.67% winning against a 1 point defender without any def bonuses. With 2 points for the defender this ends up as a tie (50%). With 1 point and 1 defense bombard this is a mere 77.79%. Even with 10 defensive bombard it still ends up as 70.47%. This is why defensive bombard is a very marginal bonus.
I dont have a save file of a game atm that completely satisfies what you want me to, but there was a definitive situation in a recent Demigod game where I had to choose Monarchy above Republic where I was going for an offensive strat where I lost units and got attacked a lot. It caused me to obtain free war happiness (I got declared war on) where I would've gotten no war happiness and even war weariness. Also I was in the medieval era where even under Monarchy I could tech between 6-8 per turn, so Rep would not even have done a lot of extra for me there. However, when I went to Industrial Era it became 10 turns, so I had to change into Republic, but by that point I had gotten more luxuries and stronger.
This was a clear situation where Monarchy was stronger for me for a while. Noteworthy is that I was Religious, so I could easily afford the gov change. If you want to I can share some saves of these situations, but I didnt had merely "crippling war weariness" as you described. But also, I find it to be shifting the burden of proof since that wasnt only what I was arguing for.
@@suedeciviii7142 You're welcome!
Culture flips over palace minigame??? Culture flips suck, I have lost so many armies that were healing, when the city just decides it belongs to persia, and not rome.
Palace mini game crashes the game for me on steam so as much as I love it, F TIER!!!
Works for me on steam and Windows 10; did you get the fix for the audio bug? I recall some people saying that the audio glitch that causes the trade screen to stop playing music can also crash the game sometimes, and I think the palace dialogue is affected.
an insult to all palace enjoyers, i cannot watch this channel anymore.......................................................