"Tears are welling up in my eyes...what does that mean?" Probably one of the most emotionally suppressed people I've ever seen, that phrase was haunting.
'you are laughing....what is that?' 'yeah, when you look at the conditions for laughter, unexpected comes to mind and it needs to be not harmful.' is also very interesting @39:06
"I'm telling you it's a waste of time and you should do it anyway" is possibly one of the most profound and simple pieces of advice I've heard from a mental health professional.
I just heard this conversation for the first time and came here to say that that felt like a sucker punch. Zorian, wherever you are, I hope you're thriving. You deserve it.
Its weird how as soon as I saw him I knew he was a fellow "family" member. Its also so interesting to me, how different people who grew up in the same cult can have such different effects and feelings. He and a lot of people I know look back and feel like they were robbed of time or a chance at a normal life but I look back very fondly on my childhood. I am in no way defending the cult I've heard so many first hand stories from former member of how badly there were treated and I myself experienced the emotional manipulation from as early as I can remember. But I still feel like overall I had a great childhood and met so many awesome people. I think like him, my parents shielded me from a lot of the bad stuff but then maybe I just don't realize how messed up it left me, which is a pretty scary thought. I related so so many things he talked about especially the emotional dullness and being content even in bad situations. But I also don't feel screwed over or angry, maybe because I've been fortunate to be pretty successful since leaving the cult. Its very hard to reconcile the sadness I feel for all the people the cult hurt but also to personally look back fondly at my childhood. The only thing I can compare it two is a parent who is abusive to your siblings but kind to you. To help an outsider understand the cult was very decentralized, we all grew up in "homes" that could be as small as two families living together or as big as 100 people living in one huge house. So if you got lucky you ended up in a "nice" home were your biggest problems were not doing your chores or memorizing enough verses. But if you were unlucky you could be physically or sexual abused even as kids, or maybe just mentally abused. Anyway not sure why I felt the need to write this, but listening to him pulled up a lot of old memories and feelings. Hopefully someone finds this interesting.
It is mind-bending to me how much of this man’s childhood he has forgotten. I can only imagine how much of a struggle it was dredging up those old memories and reliving those early days. What an absolutely wonderful young man.
I was deeply touched by this interview. I had few tears at times... Zorian did great work showing up and allowing the process to go deep and touch his sensitive and painful areas. It was beautiful to see how his face changed - became more deep, present and genuine - like true Zorian stepped in front. And I really admire Dr. K way of guiding the process. Great inspiration - from both of you!
When he asked what the point of self-acceptance was, I almost couldn't comprehend it. It was like someone whose house was burning down asking "What's the point of putting out this fire?"
He seems like a really smart guy that has done a lot of self-therapy but as the conversation goes on he is starting to realize that self therapy can only get you so far. Our brains are really good at tricking us, and you really need an outside observer to help you through therapy. It is very hard to analyze your own brain because the brain you are trying to analyze is controlling the analyzing. Edit: Also it seems like he forgave his parents because it made logical sense to do so, he logically understood why he should forgive them, and he understood that it was the right thing to do and would help him move on. But emotions are weird, and while logic can help you suppress those emotions, it can't make them go away. When Dr. K (someone I'm sure he finds intelligent and logical) told him he disagrees with his assessment and that what his parents did was fucked up, you could see that anger and sadness resurfacing for a second until he re-logic'd it back down below.
oh my god man me too, at first i felt strange about him and it felt weird, but then i saw the similarities in me ... i think its self loathing and trauma trust issue.
Ahhh, the feeling of a therapist bringing down the truth hammer, turning a constant, emotionally defensive smile into a quivering frown, & then... tears. That was my first experience in therapy, as I imagine this was for Zorian. I felt like Dr. K was going to say for a second there "this is the point where you cry now." Lol
What a clever and sweet and articulate guy. It's so sad that he was raised so traumatically. I'm grateful he's taken this opportunity to both share his experience with the world and also benefit from sharing his process with you. Zorian, if you see this: Thank you. I'm so grateful you're free, and I so admire the strength and courage it had to have taken for you to not just survive and escape that experience, but also to discuss it now with such candor and integrity. I went into this assuming it'd be tales of wild wacky creepy cult antics, but instead so far I've learned a lot about trauma and wound up seeing a lot of myself reflected in your feelings and coping traits and personality, which is a far more rewarding and impactful experience. I mean, seriously, wow. Thank you so much for this.
Also, I really relate to the logical foundation of harmless unexpected things feeling funny. I think it's not at all mutually exclusive to expression of laughter as a defense mechanism, but rather I think both can express at once/exist on a spectrum together because laughter serves as great release of the emotions and stress created by any degree of uncomfortable experience, from the majorly uncomfortable down to the most mundane moment of simply feeling surprised. I think there may be decent objective arguments to support that, and then anecdotally I can at least say that for me it's directly tied into what feels like the actual emotional experience of true amusement, and it seems to me and makes sense to me that the physical action root can cause/train the emotion itself to present even though we usually imagine the causality to be the other way around. My quasi-educated amateur conjecture about the somatic root of it all is this: I figure laughter is a practical path-of-least-resistance figurative-drainage-system for excess glucose/hormones/heart rate elevation that all get going when briefly stressed by so much as a small surprise, and also it also helps relax the body on the gross scale because shaking ourselves out (like people sometimes do on purpose to shake anxiety, or like is performed in massage to get an unconsciously contracted muscle to relax, etc. etc.) is both good for relaxing muscle tone (particularly respiratory muscles) and also for getting the mental awareness back into the body/figuratively grounded. In my singular personal experience, teaching myself to laugh reflexively in response to "I just tripped in front of people/dropped my stuff getting on a busy bus/fell and got hurt/got startled uncomfortably" moments -- (with the idea being that it breaks up the secondhand embarrassment/tension for others, thus mitigating the thing I was actually most self-conscious about) -- ultimately turned into accidental faking it until I made it; over a couple of years it conditioned me into actual greater confidence and lack of embarrassment in those moments, as well as inadvertently (but wonderfully) making me generally experience laughter as my reflexive startled-response, instead of the brief burst of flustered tears I usually had to being startled until my mid-teens. So yeah, uhhh, that, lol. This concludes my spontaneous verbose essay argument for laughter-at-discomfort and laughter-at-mundane-unexpectedness existing on a spectrum together and this pathway to feeling amused at unexpected things and just overall situations even when conventionally-felt "funny" isn't at all present in a neutral or negative situation, at least for my weird autie pathologically-meta predictions-attached self. :P (Btw, the part about one's unconscious mind making predictions that are different from most people's was also super relatable and intriguing, and then right when I was all zoned in introspectively on that, the barely-containedly-emphatic "Yep" made me crack up laughing. I'd argue that that particular moment is actually truly funny. ;P )
Final addendum: At the end, Zorian said "not broken", NOT "broken"! It was a complex question to have go by so fast so I get mishearing it but yeah, Zorian, if you see this, when you asked if the problem itself is not that you're broken, but rather that you're not *recognizing* that you are in fact NOT broken, that is indeed EXACTLY what he was getting at! Yes yes yes that was it! Awesome! You've got this, you've absolutely got this. The trick is that there is no trick and you just have to practice your way to embracing that, not rationalize your way to it. It's the hardest most counterintuitive work in the world and it's never fully over (I would say that, yes, the rare times people really finish this work, it's the same thing that has been called proper death of ego and/or true enlightenment) but it's the best damn thing in the world and you will truly change the course of your life by training your mind in this counterintuitive skill.
Dr. K is amazing. Just the words "thats okay" can make a big impact. You can tell this guy has some serious trauma and emotional issues. I hope he gets the help he needs. I hope he accepts the past and learns to move forward without feeling that hes walking on eggshells. Hes so afraid of ruining the rest of his life and missing oppurtunity that it takes away his ability to basically enjoy life.
I swear Dr. K is some kind of genius. How did he get through to this guy? At the start it was so frustrating to watch but somewhere in the middle and towards the end I felt like there was some real progress and this guy discovered something within himself that he didn't even know existed.
oh shit when he said he was being objective and Dr K explained that this was actually the most subjective thing he does i instantly recognized this within myself aswell. In an effort to be more objective I'm just distancing from my true self to create a second position from which I can observe myself without actually FEELING things and instead rationalizing & observing them. Was also deeply christian home schooled & deprived socially my entire childhood.
I literally had to pause the video and have my good friend come over and discuss that statement with me. He goes to therapy and I wanted his input on that statement as well as when he compares objectivity vs. subjectivity from a 2nd person. Made me realize that this whole time I thought I was being objective, I was actually thinking subjectively from another persons perspective. I don't know if that makes sense but that part of the video equally blew my mind. Same upgringing except private Christian school, with parents in teaching and administration. I think its nice to know when were not alone. *It's okay bro*
@@Nomadictattooing haha brother I was private Christian schooled for a stint as well! so I can even relate to that aspect of your upbringing as well, pretty trippy. But no I entirely agree with your summary of the topic, it really is a stark realization and since Im creating distance from the need to intellectualize things to cope with it and trying to replace that with just feeling it, like actually feeling & integrating that feeling in the moment. Definitely a healthy thing, super glad I watched this video & appreciate your comment/reminder of the positive experience so cheers to you as well. **It's okay bro**
Dr. K's realization that striving for objectivity can sometimes be a subjective process was incredibly insightful and revealing. Generally, objectivity aims for neutrality and fact-based reasoning. However, the process of attempting to be objective relative to personal matters can be inherently subjective since involves personal biases, perspectives, and the unique mental frameworks each individual uses to interpret their experiences. The distinction between rationalizing/observing and actually feeling emotions revealed Zorian's struggle in self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Rationalizing and intellectualizing can be useful for understanding and processing emotions, but they are not substitutes for experiencing and accepting these emotions (self-awareness and acceptance).
The fact that I related to this man more than I thought I would really hit the nail on the head for me. I've been working on acceptance since I fucked up recently, and this help give me the direction I wanted to take it. Thank you to the both of you.
@@johnnyparsnips7641 While technically correct your missing that in modern language cult is almost exclusively used to describe those of the districtive nature. There are rubrics that can be followed to generally separate a organization or religion from something that we would label as a cult. Generally the differentiation is the level of control exerted on the members in all factors of there lives as well as general levels of brainwashing. Frequently such control is enforced with a us vs them mentality which causes members to fear being excommunicated and tossed into the "them".
@@johnnyparsnips7641 crossfit is a cult just not a good one lol . The exercises they do on that are bullshit and will worsen your joints if anything . Its clear to me you dont work out
I was also raised as a part of a religious cult (albeit much more innocent than his). I can relate to so much its scary. The restrictions on entertainment, the feeling of being the "chosen ones", the idea of pushing away non-believers etc. So glad me and my brothers are free of it now. Wish i could say the same for all of my family members.
restrictions to entertainment can be good, umm every religion has a chosen people, all religions want to convert non believers, missing the part that sounds anything like a cult? sounds like you a more an atheist from your examples
@@lafondawilliams Excuse me, what? When people refer to the restriction of entertainment in the context of religious cults, it's usually more about propaganda and censorship than keeping little 5-year-old Billy away from R-rated movies. Not every religion has a "chosen people," and those that do are more culty than the others. And then you got it completely backwards about non-believers. They said "pushing away non-believers", which is near the opposite of trying to convert them. These are all classic trademarks of cult behavior, ones I began to recognize when I escaped the cult I was raised in myself.
Coming from a Christian home... i completely related to everything he was saying... Gratefulness is preached so hard, you're sort of trained to feel content no matter how shitty your life actually is.
I think there is a place for being content with what you have. Maybe it is because I live in Scandinavia and I have heard it suggested that the reason we always rank at the top in happiness statistics is that it's in our culture to be "content". Wanting to rise above others is looked down upon here and honestly I like that it is. America on the other hand everything is about success. It's very interesting because people are not religious at all here yet we almost act like people in literal cults act in the US. I don't think people should be content in shitty situations but I do think at some point it is very important to be able to be content. What are the problems in society today? Huge inequality because rich people just want more and more and more money. I think it is a complete failure of humanity that a handful of people have more money than they can ever spend while others are struggling to put food on the table.
@@beaverones41 There's a difference between being genuinely content (having a largely egalitarian society helps a ton, something the US does not have but Nordic countries do) and actively suppressing one's discontent and slapping fake gratefulness on top of it. Suppressing makes it fail, healthy reframing makes it work (yeah, this sucks, totally sucks but there are also good things in this world that are actually good: this and that and that, etc.). Having a society that is fairly homogenous and trusts each other is also crucial for that sense of wellbeing.
Fuck, man! This dude’s background was identical to mine. I also have this weird smiley way of masking myself when I’m around others. I also left the cult at 18. Then I had several suicide attempts and unbearable depression for years until I discovered drugs. I lost another 20 years of my life in addiction. Been sober and healing for a few years now though. I’m even training to become a therapist so I can help others. Ayahuasca helped me to crack open my carapace and feel real authentic feelings for the first time in my life. I hope you can all find some peace and healing along this lonely journey towards authenticity. 🙌✨♥️
@@i_am_b1anca_207 No, I don’t have either. But thanks for your interest. I have written a book though. But it’s still sitting on my laptop. You’ve inspired me to do something with it. So once again, cheers.
@@thisismyprivateaccount6546 I knew that rehab wasn’t for me. The stats on recovery after 12 months was around 9%. Plus it costs a ton and I couldn’t afford it. I was having therapy but not getting anywhere as I was so numb and completely avoidant of any feelings. I had no access to my deep well of trauma and pain. And I had tried to OD on LSD when I was 22 and had a horrific experience that changed me forever. So I knew the power of psychedelics and had curiosity and intense fear of them. One day whilst high on morphine, I was listening to a podcast whilst walking my dog and heard a guy talking about how ayahuasca had helped him to beat his addiction and gave him back his feelings. I wanted to what he had. And I felt it in my soul. It just felt like a very real path out of my self destructive impulses. I believed that this could save me from myself. I’ve had to rinse and repeat many times now. 24 in total. It’s incredibly helpful and very powerful but without integration it’s not been as effective as I had hoped. I didn’t truly understand this missing part until a year ago.
I grew up in an intense religious situation as well. I've definitely done the same thing where I'll make people uncomfortable when I talk about my upbringing because I'll be smiling or laughing when the subject matter is actually quite serious.
I haven't experienced this type of trauma or religious indoctrination, but I think there's also a healthy place for laughter (from both relief and from dark humor, which I think venn heavily together anyway) in processing of traumas in general. In massage therapy training, we learned a bit about anxious or stressed or hurt people (and particularly those coping with trauma) can sometimes experience laughter during sessions just like emotional release through crying (even if they're not consciously feeling the sadness either and their eyes are just leaking kinda out of nowhere) can also happen on the massage table. I think it's cool that these tools exist for our body to literally release lots of things it needs to let go of.
Its not just you, let alone specifically radical Christians.. Demons/evil spirits are real, just as the bible teaches about, and they fascilitate the evils perpetuated and suffered by everyone on earth... That truth extends all the way to biblical belief (they only fear and obey the name of Jesus). I have seen so much preternatural power that they are capable of I will never consciously question the existence of Satan, Jesus, God, and heaven, ever again. With that said, demons will naturally hate Christians all the more than any other kind of worshipper, and basically endeavor to warp perspectives of them wherever allowed/ordered.. This is also why Christianity is really so unique as a belief system, as a worldview, as a framework of understanding/absolving of guilt, the problem of evil, grace, and justice, not to mention the uniqueness of Jews as a minority people (remember Christians are the most persecuted minority AND religious group in the history of the world)... as Jordan Peterson said, if a minority is successful it suggests that its not resentful... and (in more or less words) has the hutzpah to endeavor to be successful, which is sort of anomalous amongst minority groups.
a lot of false christians say how if you do A then you'll go to hell. but the reality of the message is if you believe that jesus is the son of god and the christ then youll be saved. so its not about doing good things that gets you to heaven its just when you believe once then youre saved
This was a great talk. I am glad that he came in with an open mind and focused on talking about himself. Most guests don't share as much and already think they know what's wrong.
The guest was very unpredictable, i couldn't read him at all, props to dr.k Edit: it's fascinating how after dr.k told him "it's okay", and managed to create this safe space for him, he dropped some of the resistance, he stopped shaking his body and fidgeted less, laughed less, and was more open to what dr.k had to suggest
He's fairly predictable. Y'know how Dr. K has mentioned in older videos that when you feel ashamed, you often feel like you have to do a bigger and better thing all at once to clear that feeling? This is how Zorian applied it: through veering too far toward altruism when he realized he had been manipulated by this cult, and didn't want to do that to others. Only issue is, he didn't have the understanding of how to do that when he first started. I hope over time he's able to find contentment in the simple actions.
He seemed to really be comfortable with "needing" Dr. K and accepting his message at this point in the video Interesting to me is that at the start of the conversation Dr. K made a show of not needing anything when you constantly move homes as a child. Therefore Zorian exudes this mindset of I don't need anyone, and this only made him intensely lonely as he aged, and relied on his own intellect and perspective.... Which led to the coping strategies of intellectualization and nervous laughter when he recognizes absurdity of other peoples perspectives. So when it finally came time to relax and accept himself and the present situation and stop the nervous laughter... It was because Dr.K gave him that permission - Its ok bro.
The best interview so far. Such a fascinating depiction of repressed emotion from awful circumstances-and the speed and articulation and the way Dr K just manages through it all is so professional and amazing. So many layers in this intervew man.
This was an INCREDIBLE conversation to watch and a testament to Dr K’s remarkable skill. The second half of this was an absolute masterclass, both conversationally and from a psychiatric treatment standpoint. I’m so impressed. :) Thank you so much for sharing!
Hi if Zorian decided to read the comments here I wanted you to know you are very brave for talking about this and are very strong! And I know a lot of people in the comments are asking for a part 2 to this interview but YOU DONT HAVE TO! Only do what you are comfortable with. I hope you have a nice day! And you have a nice smile.
Koan for the win. Dr K. "As long as you think there's a trick, you won't find it " That's interesting. It's a crazy way to break out of intellectual cycle.
this conversation is very interesting. dr k is very good at picking up other people's emotions and thinking. i hope i can be as in tune with emotions as dr k is. and being very honest with who you are and how you feel.
The human brain is so complex, crazy, and fascinating. When he asked why tears were welling up in his eyes - it was like Dr. K dropped kicked a door open to a hallway in his brain he never knew existed. I have immense respect for the people who come on in front of thousands of viewers and let the world in on their trauma.
Dear Dr. K , I found this interview to be very helpful. if its possible please consider part 2. or atleast advise on methods to do for people with similar problems to zorian. thank you
My partner was in a cult and the similarity on his affect is uncanny. It really really effects your processing even in normal conversations. The main similarity I notice is answering questions in a 'sideways' way, not at all how you would expect someone to verbally or emotionally respond.
Hot damn, that was a good ep!! Brought me to tears a few times. Being given permission to make mistakes feels so impactful. If you're uncomfortable/annoyed at the start, push through, it gets better.
I think Dr. K noticed that Zorian has some sociopathic traits, which really show in these moments. At 1:15:10 Zorian tries to corner Dr. K, probably as part of a defense mechanism due to extremely uncomfortable feelings. But the dude might be more self aware than sociopathic.
@@finn6612 I'm not sure corner is the right verb for what he tried to do. If you look at the way he reacted after Dr K's answer, the way he accepted it tells me he was just curious.
@@finn6612 I did find Zorian to be hyper self-aware. His ability to introspect is impressive, considering his background. But this convo reminded me how self-therapising can fail - we can't escape our own logical fallacies/defence mechanisms.
@Michael Adler I found Zorion very relatable and was similarly confused and uncomfortable when Dr K told him to not go on a quest on self improvement. I felt this was a response to that because it sounds so counter-productive
I think this conversation gave me important insight. Self-improvement (at least mine) is based on the assumption that one is broken and can be fixed. But, and this hit me hard a few time, it's okay bro.
This dude has such a charismatic smile i love it! :D Interesting to see how his mind works. Its functioning in a completely different way i feel. His word choice is pretty unique. Interesting conversation.
Wow this was, amazing. It was so beautiful to see him open up in small little ways that showed his vulnerability. I wish I could let him know that he is human, he is “one of us” and he belongs. This conversation absolutely touched my heart. I hope that he continues to find ways to connect with other people as well as himself and to find acceptance. The rock meditation is such an interesting idea too!
The fact I missed how his parents never even told him they had left the cult until he was trying to leave it himself was mind blowing.. it was right there and I didn't even pick up on it. This has to be one of the most fascinating interviews Dr. K has had so far. Not because of his history as a former cultist. But by how layered his intellectual mind (amongst other things) has crafted his defenses. Adaptive mechanisms on top of adaptive mechanisms, a monster of logic built around a core of trauma and the inability to interact with that emotional core. Such that Dr. K has to navigate around them so carefully yet decisively.
I hope Zorian's keeping well. I don't think at the time he realized how brave he was being in sharing this conversation with all of us. Hope you're staying strong, bro.
man it is SO UNCOMFORTABLE for me to hear this guy talk, he feels so overconfident about his rational abilities and yet he's so evidently emotional about nearly anything, I really admire dr.K for handling the conversation the way he did
Wow I started crying a few times listening to this. This guy is so strong, and I hope he'll live a happy life living forward and that he has good luck with being a bit more in touch with his feelings (cause that shit can hurt when you're not used to it).
Zorian you are an Amazing person The very fact that you came to this moment here that you are here in the video talking about your experiences that you have until now in your life is amazing You are a very strong person in my opinion. hope the best of luck for you dude (:
I had such a simliar problem to this guy a few years ago, like point for point, the inherent need/drive/expectation of improvement, and the revelation that both "improving" and "being still" were both valid an acceptable states of being. Holy fuck, this conversation gives me mad deja vu, seeing it happen is so cool, and also so weird, but I'm really glad that this guy is getting to see that.
44:26 I've seen this exact face on so many people, that have gone through different forms of abuse or trauma. I used to feel like they were really weird and couldn't really find a way to relate to them, sometime sI would even be judgemental towards them - after seeing this episode though and hearing Dr K lay it out I think I may be able to re-evaluate people like that, I feel like this is giving me a lot better understanding.
I had never connected my difficulty with reading emotions as side effects of growing up in a cult... it's pretty clear to me that this is the case after watching this. I have a lot of that blindness to incongruent emotions that Dr K is pointing out in Zorian. The discomfort that he points out in the intro is SO FAMILIAR to me. I would never have noticed it if he hadn't pointed it out - it was just background noise growing up - always there. Something I'd love to explore is the effect of having your emotions twisted as part of the cult operations. You're not "allowed" to feel uncomfortable with certain doctrines. It's "the word of God". You're not "allowed" to feel sadness, empathy, for the people you're proselytizing to - for how godawful uncomfortable you're making them feel, you're not allowed to acknowledge how uncomfortable it makes YOU feel as a human being to do this to another person. To encroach on their and your boundaries like that. On such a core and fundamental level - feels like on a soul level. Of course that's going to fuck you up. Your mind goes into all kids of very clever pretzel positions to work around it to let you get through the day. It's something I have trouble explaining to people who haven't grown up in an environment like this. "Well why didn't you just leave/say no/realize it was wrong?" This is the first time I've seen someone (Dr K) who HASN'T grown up in an environment like this validate and point out some really important things about that experience. I still have trouble naming what I grew up in as a cult. But I fit absolutely everything Dr K was pointing out. Even the name of the organization I was subjected to! I've been working on the "so the part of me that's broken is the part that thinks I'm broken" cycle recently with a coach and it's been absolutely transformative. I have a long way to go, and lots of anger at what I lost in my childhood and teen and early adult years, but it's shifting - I'm starting to have some of those "oh it's ok" responses internally, which is just huge. I hope we all find healing.
@@SIC647 Thank you for sharing that. I've shared what I wrote elsewhere in the hopes that it could help someone else as well because of what you said. I hope you're doing well.
1:03:40 i resonate with this so much. In highschool, i was picked on. so to compensate for my miserable day i would play video games whenever i got home. I still carry that mentality till today. it sucks
Dear, watching these is brilliant and very informative about people's experiences- specifically cult related experiences! This is fascinating to see how Dr K bounces off other people, quietly analysing and making sure the balance of emotions doesn't slip too far either way. Reminds me when I talked with a psychiatrist when I was in a bad place- never had a more fascinating but terrifying experience. Very tiring!
I was in a cult. So I was dragged there by my parents, they wanted to help me since I was a rebellious kid. It was...weird dude. It started off with me going to Wembley stadium 12 years ago. We attended this huge seminar. The entire room was packed. People sung and danced and they generally seemed merry. Standard church stuff. Near the end of each session, the pastor would call people to the front and lay hands on them. They'd shake violently and fall to the ground. I was like "wtf am I looking at". He'd also wave his hand and about 1000 people would fall down. The first 3 times I felt nothing. I wasn't buying it. It happened to my friends though, and I was curious what they were experiencing. I got interested so naturally I wanted to experience it. It was weird, I kind of "allowed it" to happen. Next thing I knew my legs were spaghetti and I was on the ground mumbling like a bafoon. I was baffled. I thought there was something to this after all. It was like discovering magic as something that was real. Afterwards it got even weirder. There was a constant cycle of praising god etc... Being inspired by our Pastor. He was always preaching about prosperity and healing. He asked for a LOT of money too. I believe it was 10% with another 10% as offering as well as different books and DVD's we had to buy. People were always "healed" at the end of service and we'd scream and roar thinking we were doing gods work. We were promised riches, health, happiness, love, you name it. Of course it never actually happened, and if it did, we pretended it was God. We knew it was a lie but we still wanted to believe it. People would spin around Beyblade style. People would shiver and fall to the ground. Those who didn't believe were always stunned at the weirdness of what we were doing. It was constant too. We spent about 30 - 50 hours a week there. It was ridiculous honestly. I remember falling unconscious a few times from lack of oxygen. People stopped taking their pills and medications. The deaths started. One by one, people started falling more and more sick and eventually dying. We said it was "God's will". I had asthma and thought I was healed. We were taught that if our prayers didn't work it was our fault. So the people who died were at fault, not the cult. I stopped using my inhaler. I almost died twice from being unable to breathe. I was taken to hospital. My mum was furious. She stormed over to the cult and cussed him out lol. Anyways eventually word got out about some sexual abuse allegations from the Pastor. He was also investigated for fraud. Turns out that he hired people to pretend to be sick and to pretend to be healed. Our "offerings" weren't even mandatory by God. It lined his pockets. Dude had a private jet and shit. He blamed people for their deaths, and used other forms of trickery and deception to make his money. Eventually my friend died. He got ill. I sold my pc and prayed for like 2 weeks straight. I cried when he died. Then I started asking questions. I started looking into it. Eventually I stopped being indoctrinated but it was a very strange experience. My cult wasn't very sexual though for the most part. Not like Rajneeshpuram.
I’m very sorry about your friend and your experience but holy shit does that sound terrifying! I can’t imagine being a part of something like that but what you mentioned about being fooled into falling was very interesting. I wonder how that works. By the way, congratulations on getting out of it! I hope you’re doing better now :)
That sounds awful and baffling to have to go through. Thank you for sharing your experience and I'm sorry you had to go through it. You deserved better.
THIS THING STILL HAPPENS ALL OVER AFRICA. THIS MIRACLE SHIT AND "FEELING THE HOLY GHOST" AND SPEAKING IN TONGUES. PEOPLE FALLING DOWN. PEOPLE RISING FROM THEIR CRUTCHES AND GETTING HEALED. ITS INSANE TO THINK THAT IT HAPPENS IN THE WESTERN WORLD. WOW. Happy for you tho. Stay safe 🙂
I really needed this. The acceptance of frustration with myself. I understood before to sit with a feeling but not that it is okay, to feel ambivalent, to feel bad, to accept me as a whole not as an abstract concept of self.
I'd say he could make huge gains in a successful 6 months... basically to start back at being a kid and accept he was a good kid in each of these shit situation he was put in, accept that this happened and now it's done. And then work on seeing how now he is still a good kid on an unexplored journey, and sure making some mistakes like we all do but that's fucking ok bro, keep going! See how this plays out! He's super observant, he'll figure out there are no cheats or new tools he needs to fashion, it's just swimming in emotion of acceptance.
You can't predict that someone needs years of therapy doesn't have to do with how hard he got hit has more to do with how fast his mind can catch on and I think this guy made pretty big change this one episode, at around the 40minute mark he finally got some control over his ego and could open mindedly listen to what dr K had to say.
Somebody else mentioned this but I knew he was also part of “the family” almost as soon as he started talking. Can’t help but wish I could hug the homie. I don’t talk to a lot of people who survived it but I know a lot of us are out there so if by any chance you also make it to this video and somehow read this… I love you so fucking much
Chris Shelton is a youtuber that has a TON of content on his chanel related to this subject, as he had been a member of scientology in the past and managed to escape :] very informative!!
I left a cult almost two years ago during a tell-all moment where most members started sharing with each other what the leadership was doing to them and most of us left. I didnt share one story of my own with them because it felt like something i should keep to myself. After a couple weeks it bubbled up enough to where i finally had to tell someone and i just sobbed for hours. These people had gotten access to the most vulnerable parts of me and used them all against me to take away so much. I took back EVERYTHING they took away from that one moment within a few months - I chose where I got to live for the first time in years and I'm marrying the person they separated me from. My emotional journey out of it is still ongoing and doesn't look quite like his but I do recognize that contrast between the logical side thats trying to hold it all in ("this story is too intimate to share with 100 people") and the emotional side ("they didnt accept me and they should have never had any authority over my LIFE."). The world outside is so, so overwhelmingly good. The thing ive learned is that theres always someone willing to screw you over whether theyre a cult leader or not but the difference is cults do an excellent job at denying you a chance to see the good in the world that makes it worthwhile and when you get out sometimes you have to be reminded that the good is worth being vulnerable in a safe space. I didnt grow up in mine and I am wealthy outside of it in more ways than material, its so commendable how far he has gotten especially considering that he grew up with it and had no previous worldview or resources to fall back on.
This conversation reminds me of an extreme hypothetical. It takes certain issues someone may have and takes them to the most extreme level. This allows issues that we all may suffer from on a more subtle level be blown up to a more obvious and macro one, allowing them to be more plain to see.
I thought I had a fear of rejection too but this talk made me realize I was at a point of assumed rejection. So being accepted is really what my fear is rooted in. I guess the next step is what am I afraid of will happen if I get accepted.
Oh same! When Dr K asked him the question I related and answered out loud with him "rejection". And when Dr K said no, you're scared of acceptance. It hit me like a ton of bricks. Holy sh... That makes so much sense now! I'm with you on this journey, I also need to figure out more about this part of myself now 🙏🏼 The best of luck to you on your quest 🦋☀️
I have to say. This one was a hard one to watch. The disconnect between his emotions and his reaction was disturbing almost. Amazing he found the courage to talk about it. GG my man GG! Hope you found your way and get better!
He expected Dr K to brush it off. But he instantly recognised the trick. And answered honestly. Dr K always has the upper hand. And still chooses empathy.
People joke that we are a cult, but please respect this very serious conversation. Hope you all learn something!
Respect.
It's always respect around these parts 💗
🤝
All hail to our leader
Bruh, ngl healthgamergg is kinda a cult
"Tears are welling up in my eyes...what does that mean?" Probably one of the most emotionally suppressed people I've ever seen, that phrase was haunting.
timestamp?
'you are laughing....what is that?' 'yeah, when you look at the conditions for laughter, unexpected comes to mind and it needs to be not harmful.' is also very interesting @39:06
Jebus Christ hope this man gets better.
46:37
Maybe he wasn't crying but I am...
"I'm telling you it's a waste of time and you should do it anyway" is possibly one of the most profound and simple pieces of advice I've heard from a mental health professional.
I am so impressed that Zorian allowed the process to happen and had the strength to open up. I feel like he helped so many of us here by doing this
He helped me I’ve been reflecting on this video the whole day. Uneasy feelings but real eye opening
I agree. Zorian did something not many people have the courage and I hope he gets what he needs when the time is right.
@@treasurechest2951 me too.
When he said "I love you" at the end, I started bawling... I sincerely hope finds peace with himself in the future.
Oh same ❤️
The amount of absolute love that was in those words were astonishing! Especially considering his relationship with his emotions.
Amateurs, I got a head start an hour earlier
Why?
I just heard this conversation for the first time and came here to say that that felt like a sucker punch. Zorian, wherever you are, I hope you're thriving. You deserve it.
Holy shit, I saw this comment and was anticipating it and still it got me. 😢 Such a small but powerful moment.
Gosh.
“You left the cult but the cult didn’t leave you” 🤯 I feel every word of this. Wow.
Deeply relatable, yeah
As a future clinician, I learn SO MUCH by how Dr. K interacts with his guests.
He is absolutely masterful 🎉❤
Raised in a cult. Breaking down at “I’m not. I’m not allowed to make mistakes.” Fuck it all still hurts so bad
I’m sorry. You didn’t deserve to be raised in a cult. I hope you’ll be able to find peace. Wishing you luck!
he said that so robotically too. horrifying but i feel necessary for me to watch
Its weird how as soon as I saw him I knew he was a fellow "family" member. Its also so interesting to me, how different people who grew up in the same cult can have such different effects and feelings. He and a lot of people I know look back and feel like they were robbed of time or a chance at a normal life but I look back very fondly on my childhood. I am in no way defending the cult I've heard so many first hand stories from former member of how badly there were treated and I myself experienced the emotional manipulation from as early as I can remember. But I still feel like overall I had a great childhood and met so many awesome people. I think like him, my parents shielded me from a lot of the bad stuff but then maybe I just don't realize how messed up it left me, which is a pretty scary thought.
I related so so many things he talked about especially the emotional dullness and being content even in bad situations. But I also don't feel screwed over or angry, maybe because I've been fortunate to be pretty successful since leaving the cult. Its very hard to reconcile the sadness I feel for all the people the cult hurt but also to personally look back fondly at my childhood. The only thing I can compare it two is a parent who is abusive to your siblings but kind to you.
To help an outsider understand the cult was very decentralized, we all grew up in "homes" that could be as small as two families living together or as big as 100 people living in one huge house. So if you got lucky you ended up in a "nice" home were your biggest problems were not doing your chores or memorizing enough verses. But if you were unlucky you could be physically or sexual abused even as kids, or maybe just mentally abused. Anyway not sure why I felt the need to write this, but listening to him pulled up a lot of old memories and feelings. Hopefully someone finds this interesting.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Thank you for sharing ❤️
i love you, i hope you can heal from all your hurt, Im proud of you
@@jinismymom7272 Thank you for the kind words.
@@jinismymom7272 Seems like he articulated clearly that he has little to no hurt from his experiences and feels quite the opposite of his childhood.
The suicide rates among survivors of this cult are exponentially high. So thankful that this guy is alive and surviving
I could feel them :(
well you can’t call them survivors in this case….😬
@@8v1ada14 you can survive the cult and still die later. in fact it's guaranteed if you wait long enough...
Instead of LOGIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS!
we learned that FEELINGS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR LOGIC.
I feel like its two way street.
"It's not a fear of rejection, it's a fear of acceptance."
Holy shit that's the exact same conclusion I reached about myself just yesterday.
Fear of acceptance, fear of love, fear of happiness, fear of pleasure...
It is mind-bending to me how much of this man’s childhood he has forgotten. I can only imagine how much of a struggle it was dredging up those old memories and reliving those early days. What an absolutely wonderful young man.
I was deeply touched by this interview. I had few tears at times... Zorian did great work showing up and allowing the process to go deep and touch his sensitive and painful areas. It was beautiful to see how his face changed - became more deep, present and genuine - like true Zorian stepped in front. And I really admire Dr. K way of guiding the process. Great inspiration - from both of you!
When he asked what the point of self-acceptance was, I almost couldn't comprehend it. It was like someone whose house was burning down asking "What's the point of putting out this fire?"
I was born and raised in a cult. The missing piece here is hope. Without ANY hope, you ask a lot of “what is the point of…?” Questions.
He seems like a really smart guy that has done a lot of self-therapy but as the conversation goes on he is starting to realize that self therapy can only get you so far. Our brains are really good at tricking us, and you really need an outside observer to help you through therapy. It is very hard to analyze your own brain because the brain you are trying to analyze is controlling the analyzing. Edit: Also it seems like he forgave his parents because it made logical sense to do so, he logically understood why he should forgive them, and he understood that it was the right thing to do and would help him move on. But emotions are weird, and while logic can help you suppress those emotions, it can't make them go away. When Dr. K (someone I'm sure he finds intelligent and logical) told him he disagrees with his assessment and that what his parents did was fucked up, you could see that anger and sadness resurfacing for a second until he re-logic'd it back down below.
Wow. This comment really hit home for me.
Absolutely remarkable comment!
Absolutely remarkable comment !
I want to freaking give this dude a huge hug, this just keeps getting more gut wrenching 😭 I seriously hope that he got a therapist after this
I personally learned a lot about myself from this. No idea why or how, but I've never related more to a stream guest before.
For me it was the part about being afraid of acceptance. When he teared up every time dr k said "it's okay" etc it really got to me
same....
i cried so much during this jesus christ
oh my god man me too, at first i felt strange about him and it felt weird, but then i saw the similarities in me ... i think its self loathing and trauma trust issue.
@@mohammadabumallooh8715 Same here man
Ahhh, the feeling of a therapist bringing down the truth hammer, turning a constant, emotionally defensive smile into a quivering frown, & then... tears. That was my first experience in therapy, as I imagine this was for Zorian.
I felt like Dr. K was going to say for a second there "this is the point where you cry now." Lol
What a clever and sweet and articulate guy. It's so sad that he was raised so traumatically. I'm grateful he's taken this opportunity to both share his experience with the world and also benefit from sharing his process with you.
Zorian, if you see this: Thank you. I'm so grateful you're free, and I so admire the strength and courage it had to have taken for you to not just survive and escape that experience, but also to discuss it now with such candor and integrity.
I went into this assuming it'd be tales of wild wacky creepy cult antics, but instead so far I've learned a lot about trauma and wound up seeing a lot of myself reflected in your feelings and coping traits and personality, which is a far more rewarding and impactful experience. I mean, seriously, wow. Thank you so much for this.
Also, I really relate to the logical foundation of harmless unexpected things feeling funny. I think it's not at all mutually exclusive to expression of laughter as a defense mechanism, but rather I think both can express at once/exist on a spectrum together because laughter serves as great release of the emotions and stress created by any degree of uncomfortable experience, from the majorly uncomfortable down to the most mundane moment of simply feeling surprised. I think there may be decent objective arguments to support that, and then anecdotally I can at least say that for me it's directly tied into what feels like the actual emotional experience of true amusement, and it seems to me and makes sense to me that the physical action root can cause/train the emotion itself to present even though we usually imagine the causality to be the other way around.
My quasi-educated amateur conjecture about the somatic root of it all is this: I figure laughter is a practical path-of-least-resistance figurative-drainage-system for excess glucose/hormones/heart rate elevation that all get going when briefly stressed by so much as a small surprise, and also it also helps relax the body on the gross scale because shaking ourselves out (like people sometimes do on purpose to shake anxiety, or like is performed in massage to get an unconsciously contracted muscle to relax, etc. etc.) is both good for relaxing muscle tone (particularly respiratory muscles) and also for getting the mental awareness back into the body/figuratively grounded.
In my singular personal experience, teaching myself to laugh reflexively in response to "I just tripped in front of people/dropped my stuff getting on a busy bus/fell and got hurt/got startled uncomfortably" moments -- (with the idea being that it breaks up the secondhand embarrassment/tension for others, thus mitigating the thing I was actually most self-conscious about) -- ultimately turned into accidental faking it until I made it; over a couple of years it conditioned me into actual greater confidence and lack of embarrassment in those moments, as well as inadvertently (but wonderfully) making me generally experience laughter as my reflexive startled-response, instead of the brief burst of flustered tears I usually had to being startled until my mid-teens. So yeah, uhhh, that, lol.
This concludes my spontaneous verbose essay argument for laughter-at-discomfort and laughter-at-mundane-unexpectedness existing on a spectrum together and this pathway to feeling amused at unexpected things and just overall situations even when conventionally-felt "funny" isn't at all present in a neutral or negative situation, at least for my weird autie pathologically-meta predictions-attached self. :P
(Btw, the part about one's unconscious mind making predictions that are different from most people's was also super relatable and intriguing, and then right when I was all zoned in introspectively on that, the barely-containedly-emphatic "Yep" made me crack up laughing. I'd argue that that particular moment is actually truly funny. ;P )
Final addendum: At the end, Zorian said "not broken", NOT "broken"! It was a complex question to have go by so fast so I get mishearing it but yeah, Zorian, if you see this, when you asked if the problem itself is not that you're broken, but rather that you're not *recognizing* that you are in fact NOT broken, that is indeed EXACTLY what he was getting at! Yes yes yes that was it! Awesome! You've got this, you've absolutely got this. The trick is that there is no trick and you just have to practice your way to embracing that, not rationalize your way to it. It's the hardest most counterintuitive work in the world and it's never fully over (I would say that, yes, the rare times people really finish this work, it's the same thing that has been called proper death of ego and/or true enlightenment) but it's the best damn thing in the world and you will truly change the course of your life by training your mind in this counterintuitive skill.
@Josiah Plett Agreed, exactly! You put that very well.
Dr. K is amazing. Just the words "thats okay" can make a big impact. You can tell this guy has some serious trauma and emotional issues. I hope he gets the help he needs. I hope he accepts the past and learns to move forward without feeling that hes walking on eggshells. Hes so afraid of ruining the rest of his life and missing oppurtunity that it takes away his ability to basically enjoy life.
Dr. K was a real Bro today. Zorian thank you for coming on stream you helped a lot of people, keep on the path to help yourself.
I swear Dr. K is some kind of genius. How did he get through to this guy? At the start it was so frustrating to watch but somewhere in the middle and towards the end I felt like there was some real progress and this guy discovered something within himself that he didn't even know existed.
especially with how little info he had going in it seemed
You guys keep underestimating a Harvard degree lol
He's a legend
@@marreco6347 it's not all about the degree friend. I'm sure some got that nice beautiful degree and suck at it.
“It’s okay bro” I think was a crucial point here for him to open up. So simple but so fucking powerful to even some of the most resistant minds.
oh shit when he said he was being objective and Dr K explained that this was actually the most subjective thing he does i instantly recognized this within myself aswell. In an effort to be more objective I'm just distancing from my true self to create a second position from which I can observe myself without actually FEELING things and instead rationalizing & observing them.
Was also deeply christian home schooled & deprived socially my entire childhood.
I literally had to pause the video and have my good friend come over and discuss that statement with me. He goes to therapy and I wanted his input on that statement as well as when he compares objectivity vs. subjectivity from a 2nd person. Made me realize that this whole time I thought I was being objective, I was actually thinking subjectively from another persons perspective. I don't know if that makes sense but that part of the video equally blew my mind. Same upgringing except private Christian school, with parents in teaching and administration. I think its nice to know when were not alone. *It's okay bro*
@@Nomadictattooing haha brother I was private Christian schooled for a stint as well! so I can even relate to that aspect of your upbringing as well, pretty trippy.
But no I entirely agree with your summary of the topic, it really is a stark realization and since Im creating distance from the need to intellectualize things to cope with it and trying to replace that with just feeling it, like actually feeling & integrating that feeling in the moment. Definitely a healthy thing, super glad I watched this video & appreciate your comment/reminder of the positive experience so cheers to you as well.
**It's okay bro**
Dr. K's realization that striving for objectivity can sometimes be a subjective process was incredibly insightful and revealing. Generally, objectivity aims for neutrality and fact-based reasoning. However, the process of attempting to be objective relative to personal matters can be inherently subjective since involves personal biases, perspectives, and the unique mental frameworks each individual uses to interpret their experiences.
The distinction between rationalizing/observing and actually feeling emotions revealed Zorian's struggle in self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Rationalizing and intellectualizing can be useful for understanding and processing emotions, but they are not substitutes for experiencing and accepting these emotions (self-awareness and acceptance).
I deeply sympathise with this guy. Wishing him all the best
"Terrified of irreversible mistakes" is a feeling I can definitely relate to.
The fact that I related to this man more than I thought I would really hit the nail on the head for me. I've been working on acceptance since I fucked up recently, and this help give me the direction I wanted to take it. Thank you to the both of you.
Zorian seems to have made a lot of progress throughout the stream. This was quite eye-opening. I'm rooting for you, Zorian!
Dr. K lowkey got this guy on just to show the viewers what an actual cult is
5Head
Panasu, kad. :D
@@johnnyparsnips7641 While technically correct your missing that in modern language cult is almost exclusively used to describe those of the districtive nature. There are rubrics that can be followed to generally separate a organization or religion from something that we would label as a cult.
Generally the differentiation is the level of control exerted on the members in all factors of there lives as well as general levels of brainwashing. Frequently such control is enforced with a us vs them mentality which causes members to fear being excommunicated and tossed into the "them".
@@johnnyparsnips7641 crossfit is a cult just not a good one lol . The exercises they do on that are bullshit and will worsen your joints if anything . Its clear to me you dont work out
ppl think dr K is a cult? LOL
The guts that this man has to do this interview.
I was also raised as a part of a religious cult (albeit much more innocent than his). I can relate to so much its scary. The restrictions on entertainment, the feeling of being the "chosen ones", the idea of pushing away non-believers etc. So glad me and my brothers are free of it now. Wish i could say the same for all of my family members.
Damn dude
Family members or The Family members
Mormon?
restrictions to entertainment can be good, umm every religion has a chosen people, all religions want to convert non believers, missing the part that sounds anything like a cult? sounds like you a more an atheist from your examples
@@lafondawilliams Excuse me, what? When people refer to the restriction of entertainment in the context of religious cults, it's usually more about propaganda and censorship than keeping little 5-year-old Billy away from R-rated movies.
Not every religion has a "chosen people," and those that do are more culty than the others.
And then you got it completely backwards about non-believers. They said "pushing away non-believers", which is near the opposite of trying to convert them.
These are all classic trademarks of cult behavior, ones I began to recognize when I escaped the cult I was raised in myself.
Coming from a Christian home... i completely related to everything he was saying...
Gratefulness is preached so hard, you're sort of trained to feel content no matter how shitty your life actually is.
and making something out of your life is so hard if you are super used to be "content" with nothing and frustration.
I think there is a place for being content with what you have. Maybe it is because I live in Scandinavia and I have heard it suggested that the reason we always rank at the top in happiness statistics is that it's in our culture to be "content". Wanting to rise above others is looked down upon here and honestly I like that it is. America on the other hand everything is about success. It's very interesting because people are not religious at all here yet we almost act like people in literal cults act in the US.
I don't think people should be content in shitty situations but I do think at some point it is very important to be able to be content. What are the problems in society today? Huge inequality because rich people just want more and more and more money. I think it is a complete failure of humanity that a handful of people have more money than they can ever spend while others are struggling to put food on the table.
Religion was invented to make peasants satisfied with having nothing and not revolt in pursuit of decent humane conditions
@@beaverones41 There's a difference between being genuinely content (having a largely egalitarian society helps a ton, something the US does not have but Nordic countries do) and actively suppressing one's discontent and slapping fake gratefulness on top of it. Suppressing makes it fail, healthy reframing makes it work (yeah, this sucks, totally sucks but there are also good things in this world that are actually good: this and that and that, etc.). Having a society that is fairly homogenous and trusts each other is also crucial for that sense of wellbeing.
"You have a lot to be thankful for."
*bloodlustfully seethes inside*
Fuck, man! This dude’s background was identical to mine. I also have this weird smiley way of masking myself when I’m around others. I also left the cult at 18. Then I had several suicide attempts and unbearable depression for years until I discovered drugs. I lost another 20 years of my life in addiction. Been sober and healing for a few years now though. I’m even training to become a therapist so I can help others.
Ayahuasca helped me to crack open my carapace and feel real authentic feelings for the first time in my life.
I hope you can all find some peace and healing along this lonely journey towards authenticity. 🙌✨♥️
Wow do you have a channel or blog?
@@i_am_b1anca_207 No, I don’t have either. But thanks for your interest. I have written a book though. But it’s still sitting on my laptop. You’ve inspired me to do something with it. So once again, cheers.
@@MrBungle900 A book is even better! 🙏🏾
What made you specifically choose to try ayahuasca other than the traditional benefits just curious ❤
@@thisismyprivateaccount6546 I knew that rehab wasn’t for me. The stats on recovery after 12 months was around 9%. Plus it costs a ton and I couldn’t afford it. I was having therapy but not getting anywhere as I was so numb and completely avoidant of any feelings. I had no access to my deep well of trauma and pain.
And I had tried to OD on LSD when I was 22 and had a horrific experience that changed me forever. So I knew the power of psychedelics and had curiosity and intense fear of them.
One day whilst high on morphine, I was listening to a podcast whilst walking my dog and heard a guy talking about how ayahuasca had helped him to beat his addiction and gave him back his feelings. I wanted to what he had. And I felt it in my soul. It just felt like a very real path out of my self destructive impulses. I believed that this could save me from myself.
I’ve had to rinse and repeat many times now. 24 in total. It’s incredibly helpful and very powerful but without integration it’s not been as effective as I had hoped. I didn’t truly understand this missing part until a year ago.
such a great episode. zorian is so smart and he’s really done the best he possibly can. hope he’s some where doing well 💛
Man the cult really fucked him up.. That smile is full with pain.. He can't even feel how he is feeling..
didnt even watch but i can tell by reading comments that i can relate.. Grew up really religious and i m still fucked by this weird upbringing.
watched the video and was laughing along with zorian. religions are so dangerous :((
@@TheTpointer saaaame and true
I grew up in an intense religious situation as well. I've definitely done the same thing where I'll make people uncomfortable when I talk about my upbringing because I'll be smiling or laughing when the subject matter is actually quite serious.
I haven't experienced this type of trauma or religious indoctrination, but I think there's also a healthy place for laughter (from both relief and from dark humor, which I think venn heavily together anyway) in processing of traumas in general. In massage therapy training, we learned a bit about anxious or stressed or hurt people (and particularly those coping with trauma) can sometimes experience laughter during sessions just like emotional release through crying (even if they're not consciously feeling the sadness either and their eyes are just leaking kinda out of nowhere) can also happen on the massage table. I think it's cool that these tools exist for our body to literally release lots of things it needs to let go of.
I grew up, not in what's usually considered a cult, but with very very Christian parents.
It's scary how much I can relate to this guy.
Same
Its not just you, let alone specifically radical Christians.. Demons/evil spirits are real, just as the bible teaches about, and they fascilitate the evils perpetuated and suffered by everyone on earth...
That truth extends all the way to biblical belief (they only fear and obey the name of Jesus). I have seen so much preternatural power that they are capable of I will never consciously question the existence of Satan, Jesus, God, and heaven, ever again.
With that said, demons will naturally hate Christians all the more than any other kind of worshipper, and basically endeavor to warp perspectives of them wherever allowed/ordered.. This is also why Christianity is really so unique as a belief system, as a worldview, as a framework of understanding/absolving of guilt, the problem of evil, grace, and justice, not to mention the uniqueness of Jews as a minority people (remember Christians are the most persecuted minority AND religious group in the history of the world)... as Jordan Peterson said, if a minority is successful it suggests that its not resentful... and (in more or less words) has the hutzpah to endeavor to be successful, which is sort of anomalous amongst minority groups.
a lot of false christians say how if you do A then you'll go to hell. but the reality of the message is if you believe that jesus is the son of god and the christ then youll be saved. so its not about doing good things that gets you to heaven its just when you believe once then youre saved
@@RealProdisty All Christians are false. gtfo.
I am in the process of leaving a cult after generations of my family being in it and being a missionary myself, this is super helpful, thank you.
This was a great talk. I am glad that he came in with an open mind and focused on talking about himself. Most guests don't share as much and already think they know what's wrong.
The guest was very unpredictable, i couldn't read him at all, props to dr.k
Edit: it's fascinating how after dr.k told him "it's okay", and managed to create this safe space for him, he dropped some of the resistance, he stopped shaking his body and fidgeted less, laughed less, and was more open to what dr.k had to suggest
Really goes to show he was legit
He's fairly predictable. Y'know how Dr. K has mentioned in older videos that when you feel ashamed, you often feel like you have to do a bigger and better thing all at once to clear that feeling? This is how Zorian applied it: through veering too far toward altruism when he realized he had been manipulated by this cult, and didn't want to do that to others. Only issue is, he didn't have the understanding of how to do that when he first started. I hope over time he's able to find contentment in the simple actions.
@@istokipsy6289 I think he means he was kind of all over the place in the way he shared his experiences.
He seemed to really be comfortable with "needing" Dr. K and accepting his message at this point in the video
Interesting to me is that at the start of the conversation Dr. K made a show of not needing anything when you constantly move homes as a child. Therefore Zorian exudes this mindset of I don't need anyone, and this only made him intensely lonely as he aged, and relied on his own intellect and perspective....
Which led to the coping strategies of intellectualization and nervous laughter when he recognizes absurdity of other peoples perspectives. So when it finally came time to relax and accept himself and the present situation and stop the nervous laughter... It was because Dr.K gave him that permission - Its ok bro.
I watched the twitch VOD, I think this is one of the best ‘interviews’, one that I really appreciate. Thank you
This was definitely eye-opening, and very brave of Zorian to come on.
The best interview so far. Such a fascinating depiction of repressed emotion from awful circumstances-and the speed and articulation and the way Dr K just manages through it all is so professional and amazing. So many layers in this intervew man.
This is one of THE GREATEST talks I've ever seen on Healthy Gamer!
This was an INCREDIBLE conversation to watch and a testament to Dr K’s remarkable skill. The second half of this was an absolute masterclass, both conversationally and from a psychiatric treatment standpoint. I’m so impressed. :)
Thank you so much for sharing!
Hi if Zorian decided to read the comments here I wanted you to know you are very brave for talking about this and are very strong! And I know a lot of people in the comments are asking for a part 2 to this interview but YOU DONT HAVE TO! Only do what you are comfortable with. I hope you have a nice day! And you have a nice smile.
Such a fascinating topic. I hope all is well with this human.
Koan for the win.
Dr K. "As long as you think there's a trick, you won't find it "
That's interesting. It's a crazy way to break out of intellectual cycle.
this conversation is very interesting. dr k is very good at picking up other people's emotions and thinking. i hope i can be as in tune with emotions as dr k is. and being very honest with who you are and how you feel.
Met the guy on Healthy Gamer's discord server, he's doing pretty well with that rock staring challenge. :D
any update?
hows he doing now?
I grew up in an extreme religion and I can relate to him. Most people never fully heal from the experience so I wish him the best.
The human brain is so complex, crazy, and fascinating. When he asked why tears were welling up in his eyes - it was like Dr. K dropped kicked a door open to a hallway in his brain he never knew existed. I have immense respect for the people who come on in front of thousands of viewers and let the world in on their trauma.
Dear Dr. K ,
I found this interview to be very helpful. if its possible please consider part 2. or atleast advise on methods to do for people with similar problems to zorian.
thank you
I want all the best for Zorian! He has worked so hard and he came so far already and he deserves all the help in the world
My partner was in a cult and the similarity on his affect is uncanny. It really really effects your processing even in normal conversations. The main similarity I notice is answering questions in a 'sideways' way, not at all how you would expect someone to verbally or emotionally respond.
this is genuinely one of the most eye opening videos when it comes to cults and their affects on people i have come across, thank you dr. k
Hot damn, that was a good ep!! Brought me to tears a few times. Being given permission to make mistakes feels so impactful.
If you're uncomfortable/annoyed at the start, push through, it gets better.
1:07:57 Uno reverse card
What an interesting convo, Zorian and Dr. K! Thanks so much for sharing!
oh my god someone did it someone said it
dr k has his own words handed to him
I think Dr. K noticed that Zorian has some sociopathic traits, which really show in these moments. At 1:15:10 Zorian tries to corner Dr. K, probably as part of a defense mechanism due to extremely uncomfortable feelings. But the dude might be more self aware than sociopathic.
@@finn6612 I'm not sure corner is the right verb for what he tried to do. If you look at the way he reacted after Dr K's answer, the way he accepted it tells me he was just curious.
@@finn6612 I did find Zorian to be hyper self-aware. His ability to introspect is impressive, considering his background. But this convo reminded me how self-therapising can fail - we can't escape our own logical fallacies/defence mechanisms.
@Michael Adler I found Zorion very relatable and was similarly confused and uncomfortable when Dr K told him to not go on a quest on self improvement. I felt this was a response to that because it sounds so counter-productive
The laughing while having tears is can relate soooo much too. Thank you
I think this conversation gave me important insight. Self-improvement (at least mine) is based on the assumption that one is broken and can be fixed. But, and this hit me hard a few time, it's okay bro.
Your words hit my ego like a rock there, thank you
despite having had a completely differnt life and all
the "it's okay bro" hit me hard fffff T__T
it's been 8 months, so here's just a little reminder that it's ok bro
This dude has such a charismatic smile i love it! :D
Interesting to see how his mind works.
Its functioning in a completely different way i feel.
His word choice is pretty unique.
Interesting conversation.
Wow this was, amazing. It was so beautiful to see him open up in small little ways that showed his vulnerability. I wish I could let him know that he is human, he is “one of us” and he belongs. This conversation absolutely touched my heart. I hope that he continues to find ways to connect with other people as well as himself and to find acceptance. The rock meditation is such an interesting idea too!
The fact I missed how his parents never even told him they had left the cult until he was trying to leave it himself was mind blowing.. it was right there and I didn't even pick up on it.
This has to be one of the most fascinating interviews Dr. K has had so far. Not because of his history as a former cultist. But by how layered his intellectual mind (amongst other things) has crafted his defenses. Adaptive mechanisms on top of adaptive mechanisms, a monster of logic built around a core of trauma and the inability to interact with that emotional core. Such that Dr. K has to navigate around them so carefully yet decisively.
Couldn't watch the stream, but I was looking forward to this. Very insightful! Thank you Dr. K! And thank you Zorian for sharing!
I hope Zorian's keeping well. I don't think at the time he realized how brave he was being in sharing this conversation with all of us. Hope you're staying strong, bro.
This interview was on a different level. Enjoyed and learned a lot from the video.
man it is SO UNCOMFORTABLE for me to hear this guy talk, he feels so overconfident about his rational abilities and yet he's so evidently emotional about nearly anything, I really admire dr.K for handling the conversation the way he did
Wow I started crying a few times listening to this. This guy is so strong, and I hope he'll live a happy life living forward and that he has good luck with being a bit more in touch with his feelings (cause that shit can hurt when you're not used to it).
Thank you both for having this very important conversation.
This was my favorite one yet.
one of the best sessions! Amazing work Zorian
Zorian you are an Amazing person
The very fact that you came to this moment here that you are here in the video talking about your experiences that you have until now in your life is amazing
You are a very strong person in my opinion.
hope the best of luck for you dude (:
I had such a simliar problem to this guy a few years ago, like point for point, the inherent need/drive/expectation of improvement, and the revelation that both "improving" and "being still" were both valid an acceptable states of being. Holy fuck, this conversation gives me mad deja vu, seeing it happen is so cool, and also so weird, but I'm really glad that this guy is getting to see that.
I really commend this guy for being so open and honest. He really put in a lot of effort to understand what he was feeling.
He just needs to feel. Doesn't matter what he's feeling. Just feel.
44:26 I've seen this exact face on so many people, that have gone through different forms of abuse or trauma. I used to feel like they were really weird and couldn't really find a way to relate to them, sometime sI would even be judgemental towards them - after seeing this episode though and hearing Dr K lay it out I think I may be able to re-evaluate people like that, I feel like this is giving me a lot better understanding.
I had never connected my difficulty with reading emotions as side effects of growing up in a cult... it's pretty clear to me that this is the case after watching this. I have a lot of that blindness to incongruent emotions that Dr K is pointing out in Zorian.
The discomfort that he points out in the intro is SO FAMILIAR to me. I would never have noticed it if he hadn't pointed it out - it was just background noise growing up - always there.
Something I'd love to explore is the effect of having your emotions twisted as part of the cult operations. You're not "allowed" to feel uncomfortable with certain doctrines. It's "the word of God". You're not "allowed" to feel sadness, empathy, for the people you're proselytizing to - for how godawful uncomfortable you're making them feel, you're not allowed to acknowledge how uncomfortable it makes YOU feel as a human being to do this to another person. To encroach on their and your boundaries like that. On such a core and fundamental level - feels like on a soul level.
Of course that's going to fuck you up.
Your mind goes into all kids of very clever pretzel positions to work around it to let you get through the day.
It's something I have trouble explaining to people who haven't grown up in an environment like this. "Well why didn't you just leave/say no/realize it was wrong?" This is the first time I've seen someone (Dr K) who HASN'T grown up in an environment like this validate and point out some really important things about that experience.
I still have trouble naming what I grew up in as a cult. But I fit absolutely everything Dr K was pointing out. Even the name of the organization I was subjected to!
I've been working on the "so the part of me that's broken is the part that thinks I'm broken" cycle recently with a coach and it's been absolutely transformative. I have a long way to go, and lots of anger at what I lost in my childhood and teen and early adult years, but it's shifting - I'm starting to have some of those "oh it's ok" responses internally, which is just huge.
I hope we all find healing.
best wishes on your journey onwards :)
@@josefanon8504 Thank you, I appreciate that 🙏
Thank you for writing this. I only now start to realise some of the same in me. Not even the video, but your comment.
@@SIC647 Thank you for sharing that. I've shared what I wrote elsewhere in the hopes that it could help someone else as well because of what you said. I hope you're doing well.
1:03:40 i resonate with this so much. In highschool, i was picked on. so to compensate for my miserable day i would play video games whenever i got home. I still carry that mentality till today. it sucks
Bro he communicated so fucking well, I hope he's doing better
Dear, watching these is brilliant and very informative about people's experiences- specifically cult related experiences! This is fascinating to see how Dr K bounces off other people, quietly analysing and making sure the balance of emotions doesn't slip too far either way.
Reminds me when I talked with a psychiatrist when I was in a bad place- never had a more fascinating but terrifying experience. Very tiring!
I was in a cult.
So I was dragged there by my parents, they wanted to help me since I was a rebellious kid. It was...weird dude.
It started off with me going to Wembley stadium 12 years ago. We attended this huge seminar. The entire room was packed. People sung and danced and they generally seemed merry. Standard church stuff.
Near the end of each session, the pastor would call people to the front and lay hands on them. They'd shake violently and fall to the ground. I was like "wtf am I looking at". He'd also wave his hand and about 1000 people would fall down. The first 3 times I felt nothing. I wasn't buying it. It happened to my friends though, and I was curious what they were experiencing.
I got interested so naturally I wanted to experience it. It was weird, I kind of "allowed it" to happen. Next thing I knew my legs were spaghetti and I was on the ground mumbling like a bafoon. I was baffled. I thought there was something to this after all. It was like discovering magic as something that was real.
Afterwards it got even weirder. There was a constant cycle of praising god etc... Being inspired by our Pastor. He was always preaching about prosperity and healing. He asked for a LOT of money too. I believe it was 10% with another 10% as offering as well as different books and DVD's we had to buy. People were always "healed" at the end of service and we'd scream and roar thinking we were doing gods work. We were promised riches, health, happiness, love, you name it. Of course it never actually happened, and if it did, we pretended it was God. We knew it was a lie but we still wanted to believe it.
People would spin around Beyblade style. People would shiver and fall to the ground. Those who didn't believe were always stunned at the weirdness of what we were doing. It was constant too. We spent about 30 - 50 hours a week there. It was ridiculous honestly. I remember falling unconscious a few times from lack of oxygen.
People stopped taking their pills and medications. The deaths started. One by one, people started falling more and more sick and eventually dying. We said it was "God's will". I had asthma and thought I was healed. We were taught that if our prayers didn't work it was our fault. So the people who died were at fault, not the cult. I stopped using my inhaler. I almost died twice from being unable to breathe. I was taken to hospital. My mum was furious. She stormed over to the cult and cussed him out lol.
Anyways eventually word got out about some sexual abuse allegations from the Pastor. He was also investigated for fraud. Turns out that he hired people to pretend to be sick and to pretend to be healed. Our "offerings" weren't even mandatory by God. It lined his pockets. Dude had a private jet and shit. He blamed people for their deaths, and used other forms of trickery and deception to make his money.
Eventually my friend died. He got ill. I sold my pc and prayed for like 2 weeks straight. I cried when he died. Then I started asking questions. I started looking into it. Eventually I stopped being indoctrinated but it was a very strange experience.
My cult wasn't very sexual though for the most part. Not like Rajneeshpuram.
I’m very sorry about your friend and your experience but holy shit does that sound terrifying! I can’t imagine being a part of something like that but what you mentioned about being fooled into falling was very interesting. I wonder how that works. By the way, congratulations on getting out of it! I hope you’re doing better now :)
That sounds awful and baffling to have to go through. Thank you for sharing your experience and I'm sorry you had to go through it. You deserved better.
THIS THING STILL HAPPENS ALL OVER AFRICA. THIS MIRACLE SHIT AND "FEELING THE HOLY GHOST" AND SPEAKING IN TONGUES. PEOPLE FALLING DOWN. PEOPLE RISING FROM THEIR CRUTCHES AND GETTING HEALED. ITS INSANE TO THINK THAT IT HAPPENS IN THE WESTERN WORLD. WOW. Happy for you tho. Stay safe 🙂
@@LeMagnifiquePetiteEspirit Like the TH-cam name. Hope you guys have a good weekend.
I....don't know what to say. I am just real sorry all of that happened.....
I really needed this. The acceptance of frustration with myself. I understood before to sit with a feeling but not that it is okay, to feel ambivalent, to feel bad, to accept me as a whole not as an abstract concept of self.
This was a great interview with a very very interesting guest. Tons of info to take for myself even if i’m not a person born into a cult.
For anyone worried about him saying the R word, he is using it correctly, as in slow. His way of registering emotion comes slower to him than others.
Same. Another example of that usage is the term "flame retardant." Combustion is slower than normal or something like that.
@@danielr5343 yeah that's used a lot when talking about in-wall rated cables in IT
Also probably exists in a language he knows because he mentioned he speaks several
@M. de k. lmao
@@johnnyparsnips7641 Ree-tar-dan-do for that Italian pronouniation.
New healthygamergg let's goooo
Less goooo
Zorian thank you so much for doing this!
This guy needs to get therapy, he's so pained. Heart goes out to him.
I'd say he could make huge gains in a successful 6 months... basically to start back at being a kid and accept he was a good kid in each of these shit situation he was put in, accept that this happened and now it's done. And then work on seeing how now he is still a good kid on an unexplored journey, and sure making some mistakes like we all do but that's fucking ok bro, keep going! See how this plays out! He's super observant, he'll figure out there are no cheats or new tools he needs to fashion, it's just swimming in emotion of acceptance.
Everyone needs therapy I think
You can't predict that someone needs years of therapy doesn't have to do with how hard he got hit has more to do with how fast his mind can catch on and I think this guy made pretty big change this one episode, at around the 40minute mark he finally got some control over his ego and could open mindedly listen to what dr K had to say.
@@darlantro man. Thank you.
The family... wow this is serious. Much love to this guy.
This was so interesting. Time flew
Somebody else mentioned this but I knew he was also part of “the family” almost as soon as he started talking. Can’t help but wish I could hug the homie. I don’t talk to a lot of people who survived it but I know a lot of us are out there so if by any chance you also make it to this video and somehow read this… I love you so fucking much
Chris Shelton is a youtuber that has a TON of content on his chanel related to this subject, as he had been a member of scientology in the past and managed to escape :] very informative!!
It's scary how much i relate to a cult victim
me too.
Yeah! Some families can be like small cults.
I left a cult almost two years ago during a tell-all moment where most members started sharing with each other what the leadership was doing to them and most of us left. I didnt share one story of my own with them because it felt like something i should keep to myself. After a couple weeks it bubbled up enough to where i finally had to tell someone and i just sobbed for hours. These people had gotten access to the most vulnerable parts of me and used them all against me to take away so much. I took back EVERYTHING they took away from that one moment within a few months - I chose where I got to live for the first time in years and I'm marrying the person they separated me from. My emotional journey out of it is still ongoing and doesn't look quite like his but I do recognize that contrast between the logical side thats trying to hold it all in ("this story is too intimate to share with 100 people") and the emotional side ("they didnt accept me and they should have never had any authority over my LIFE."). The world outside is so, so overwhelmingly good. The thing ive learned is that theres always someone willing to screw you over whether theyre a cult leader or not but the difference is cults do an excellent job at denying you a chance to see the good in the world that makes it worthwhile and when you get out sometimes you have to be reminded that the good is worth being vulnerable in a safe space. I didnt grow up in mine and I am wealthy outside of it in more ways than material, its so commendable how far he has gotten especially considering that he grew up with it and had no previous worldview or resources to fall back on.
“It feels true.” Best thing zorian said that truly shows he’s learning. So enlightening dr. K.
This conversation reminds me of an extreme hypothetical. It takes certain issues someone may have and takes them to the most extreme level. This allows issues that we all may suffer from on a more subtle level be blown up to a more obvious and macro one, allowing them to be more plain to see.
We need more of these. I love the ones where the guest is a regular person over all these streamers. I hope he can find a way to accept himself.
I thought I had a fear of rejection too but this talk made me realize I was at a point of assumed rejection. So being accepted is really what my fear is rooted in. I guess the next step is what am I afraid of will happen if I get accepted.
Oh same!
When Dr K asked him the question I related and answered out loud with him "rejection". And when Dr K said no, you're scared of acceptance. It hit me like a ton of bricks. Holy sh... That makes so much sense now!
I'm with you on this journey, I also need to figure out more about this part of myself now 🙏🏼
The best of luck to you on your quest 🦋☀️
Seriously, every time I watch one of these videos I want to cry.
I need to get into therapy.
One of the best conversations so far, this is gold!
I have to say. This one was a hard one to watch. The disconnect between his emotions and his reaction was disturbing almost. Amazing he found the courage to talk about it. GG my man GG! Hope you found your way and get better!
1:13:15 Dr K wiping his eyes because he's trying not to get emotional but you can see the microexpressions that he feels really bad for Zorian
i love the fact that he asked dr. k "how do you feel about that"
He expected Dr K to brush it off. But he instantly recognised the trick. And answered honestly. Dr K always has the upper hand. And still chooses empathy.