Bear-WA | The Only Proof You Need Is The Proof In Bear's Life | Atheist Experience 26.47
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Atheist Experience 26.47 for November 20, 2022 with Forrest Valkai & Christy Powell LIVE at the Freethought Library
Bear from WA is presenting personal testimony about how they experienced problems with their life, but that these problems resolved themselves after seeking out God.
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I’m so glad Forrest has joined the AE. He brings the knowledge, logic, and enthusiasm from his channel to AE.
A great addition to the hosts!
Evolution is bogus. You cannot demonstrate a single example of new organisms by random mutations. Fake
Yeah, he has a god given talent.
😜 just dicking with you; no frigs or credit given to imaginary cosmic dictators.
@@dawkins5824 Where is your Nobel Prize for disproving Evolution?
@@fredbohm4728 and Dawkins run away 🤣
@@dawkins5824 and you cannot demonstrate 95% of the Bible to be true.
At least evolution comes closer to explaining stuff that can be replicated in labs...
Reading the Bible from cover to cover, twice, led me to atheism. The only thing that would prove god would be him showing himself to us on his knees begging us for forgiveness for being such a dick.
Wow, you had to read it twice? Half way down the first page was enough for me.
I recommend video of Evid3nc3 where he talks how belief in (christian) god is actually net of beliefs and thus believers has to lose several beliefs (like belief in bible, belief in prayer, belief in god-based morality, belief in other believers, belief in personal experiences, etc.). It's interesting and helps to understand why there is so much differences between people about how easy or hard losing faith is and how different reasons for losing faith we have.
Edit: typo
@@davidsmith7653 I didn’t have to, I wanted to. The influence of seniors around me were very powerful as a child. An outpouring of respect and admiration from me led me to accept what they told me was the truth. I did have questions as a early as 5 years old but I was told to not question god or I would burn in hell. It took my tragedies in life to lead me to read it, to find the “truth”. My mind was totally blown away the first time I read it. The second time I read it I made a key word index of it for quick reference so I could tell people where these things were in the bible. This is why I read it twice and found that there is one thing in the Bible that is right, most of the words in it are spelled correctly. The rest is pure bull shit.
@@richardcrouse9074 Correct spelling Bible ? no , no , no Buybull. They are selling , some dumb folk are buying.
@@valivali8104 i was personally happy to stop believing in all those things even as a child.
I saw this personal testimony in my email in box about a week ago it was amazing. So there was all these people that sent their money to a guy who lived in Nigeria. Anyhow after just sending him just $500 they were multi-millionaires in just a few weeks. There were all these people smiling and looking really happy, clearly this worked. But there was also loads of evidence, there were pictures of Ferraris, big houses, and private planes, there was even pictures of Buckingham palace and Airforce One. I guess if you have enough money you can buy these things. Anyhow this was great evidence, backed with photos. Anyhow it's been 3 weeks since I sent my $500, so I will be rich any day now.
I got you beat! I sent $1000 to a Nigerian *PRINCE* with a connection to the Federal Bank of Nigeria and the IMF!! I'm gonna have then times more Ferraris than you are gonna have!
Admittedly it's been more than three months now but I know it's coming soon...
@@holgerlubotzki3469 I have already quit work and put a deposit in a Ferrari. Money is getting a bit low, but I have faith that my new Nigerian friend will come through with the millions. After all, faith is the path to truth, and I believe in my heart that he's telling the truth.
It worked for me. I am relaxing on my own caribbean island, cocktail in hand right now all thanks to the Prince of nigeria
@@petyrkowalski9887 That's awesome, you should charge people $1000 to tell them how you did it.
😂
Whenever the caller is asked for their proof, they start telling their life story and end up with zilch evidence.
What is your proof of atheism? Or is it just vapid disbelief.
@Dawkins what is your proof the Easter Bunny isn't real?
A long - very long, excruciatingly long, and rambling, full of utterly irrelevant incidental details, and never EVER to the point - personal story.
I totally get that we ALL have experiences that are deeply and uniquely significant to us. These experiences are worthy of our attention. That is, OUR attention, those who are experiencing them. For those who aren't, the appropriate position is sorry, but you're on your own with that one, I'm afraid.
To give an example, I could go on about a terrifying experience I had in the woods one night in Germany, in a patch of woods a short distance northward of the village of Bad Ems. I could lay out the story nice and spooky, which is how I experienced it. I could describe how terrified I was, how strong the urge to run through the black woods and escape the evil presence I felt.
I could explain how the thought occurred to me that terror was just what the evil wanted from me, because it would lead to me running through the woods at night and certainly harming myself, only to be captured anyway.
But I survived. It was almost as if all this stuff was completely a product of my imagination.
The Easter bunny is real, I had a chocolate one last Easter.
@@dawkinrich2051 🤣 I admit, that was funny.
Great call guys, we like them ones! You could tell Bear was a decent man with a rational thought process. But who had suffered trauma & sought comfort in the religion tar pit trap. Reason is the enemy of faith. Nice insight into Forests previous spiritual past life! Is Christy the second coming? You gentlemen dealt some Hitch slap Dillahunty truth bombs tonight. Have you got a bet how many callers you can convert? 😇
Hope not outright deconvert; if someone changes their mind easily, they changes their mind when they meets someone who is good with rhetorics/outright manipulation. But it is great to give them something to think and realize themself why they thinks what they thinks.
@@ookeekthelibrarian 😊 thanks. Though can’t take credit, I heard it from some atheist youtuber, can’t remember who unfortunally.
Oh GAWD... this old thing? Ollld... stale... "My lIfe was full of sin, but now I found magic space wizard, and everything is GREAT now" Bear... You could be lying out Your ass. You could be deluded. You could be telling the truth, but WE have no way of knowing.
It's always nice to hear someone actually listening, even if they don't take everything on-board all at once. Genuine honesty would be the biggest prelude to theists deconverting across the board.
Absolutely! So many calls are people with an axe to grind, so to speak, and they actively refuse to actually listen to what is being said.
Always love a good faith conversation/argument. To be clear I don't mean a good conversation about faith, necessarily.
I am about to watch the video.
I predict, sufficient evidence to warrant belief in any god isn't presented.
Not predict. Prophesize! If it turns out to be true, you become the Messiah.
@@jquest99 You must be a Persona 3 fan.
Spoiler alert, please
Nothing says evidence like anecdote! I was walking in the park a couple days ago and saw a squirrel. Since then I've got a raise at work and my car stopped making a really annoying noise. To make a long story short, I'm a squirrel worshipper. Hallelujah!
My conversion experience was not at all traumatic. I went to Mass one Sunday in my 19th year, as I did all Sundays. Near the end, at a point when kneeling was appropriate, it dawned on me, gently but certainly, that “there’s nobody up there.” I sat back in the pew until it was time to leave. I didn’t speak to anyone. I went home. My certainty has never faded. I am now 74.
That's interesting (and great!) Maggie. :) Had you been studying natural history and/or science before you came to this realization or did you just realize that religion is most likely made up by humans?
Basically, did you realize that the universe is natural with most likely natural origins or did you realize that christianity is too far fetched and is just kind of absurd?
Apologies for the questions, I'm just interested in what makes a person change their mind (and see reason) psychologically that's all.
I am 73. At about 16, I had watched communion Sunday for a while and drew a conclusion that everyone just went up automatically because it was communion Sunday (Us methodists only did communion a few times a year). So I stayed seated in my pew as everyone else without exception got up. My heart was pounding hard, as I waited for some dramatic event. Nothing happened. The path opened for me, but it took 3 more years and an encounter with a rabid college "navigator" to push me through the exit gate. Been happy ever since.
@@TheTruthKiwi I was still in high school at that time and had not test discovered my calling to biology and science. As I said, my epiphany that “there’s nobody up there” came quietly from one moment to the next (probably not really, but there was no trauma or anger or even sorrow). I have never wavered or regretted my loss of religious faith.
Recently, I became discontented with the term “atheist.” I don’t like to identify myself in terms of what I’m not. That term itself frames the discussion in theistic terms. Theism became utterly irrelevant to me decades ago. Just this week, someone sent me an article from an academic journal named “Zygon” that discusses these things in the context of naturalism. The author defines the term “religious naturalist,” which I can fully identify with.
@@stevepierce6467 Congratulations. You are free.
@@TheMargarita1948 The term atheist has always bothered me a bit. First of all, I was influenced by all the rabidly vitriolic press coverage of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the first time I ever heard the term used. Then as I got older it seemed to me that the term defines us in terms of the thing we don't believe in. As commenters on these threads often say, I am not an atoothfairyist, or an ablueunicornist (although there is a sublimely beautiful song in Spanish by Silvio Rodriguez called Mi Unicorni Azul, so maybe they do exist!).
Like you, my distancing from faith came about painlessly, helped along enormously by the college Navigator and his hateful exclusivist message. Like you, I have never looked back. I once thiught humanist might be a good label, but I don't have much faith in humans, so I too like the term Naturalist. And replying to your other short response, Yes, I am free and loving it. But I still love to repeat to others that succinct bumper sticker admonition, "God is coming.....and She is pissed!"
I actually really like this caller and the way they actually listen to arguments.
Please Bear you fixed your life, not your supernatural thing.
Exactly. And probably other people who helped as well
Whenever I hear the "I found god and my life got better" spiel, I'm reminded of the Star Trek: TNG episode, Devil's Due. A civilization, 1000 years ago, supposedly made a deal with a supernatural entity named Ardra who would fix their problems. It's 1000 years later, someone claiming to be Ardra has shown up, and is claiming the planet as theirs, including anything orbiting it which includes the Enterprise at the moment.
The head of the planet's population is asked how Ardra accomplished the good deeds. There was pollution: Did Ardra clean the air? No, we did that ourselves through changes in how we live. Famine? Did Ardra bring food? No, we did that ourselves through study in agriculture and working toward a sustainable food supply.
And on and on. Things improved, but there was no sign of this Ardra doing anything. It was all done through the hard work of the people themselves.
So by what right does this Ardra have any claim? They didn't do anything.
And yet still they are going to turn the planet over to this person who claims to be Ardra because they seem to have powers capable of causing earthquakes, vanishing people out of existence and making them reappear, etc.
Might makes right.
That reminds me of the fable of the woodcutter and the idler.
A woodcutter is out cutting firewood by the side of a footpath. A man wanders idly by, sees the woodcutter toiling away, and sits down against a comfortable tree to watch. He begins to make sounds, like someone who is working very hard. The woodcutter, perhaps thinking that he's being mocked, ignores the performance.
This continues all day, and as the woodcutter loads his handcart and pushes it wearily toward the village, the idler strolls along behind.
Going up to the town hall to deliver the wood for later sale and distribution, the woodcutter waits patiently in line for payment from the agent. But as he reaches the front of the line, the idler shoulders his way through the crowd and joins him, demanding his fair share of payment, because, he says, he did half the work.
"What do you mean, you did half the work?" asks the agent. "Did you cut the wood, or bundle it, or load it, or haul it?"
"I made all the right sounds, didn't I. And they were accurate sounds too. I kept it going all day. By way of encouragement, you know."
So the agent sighs, and carefully counts out the coins for payment into two equal piles, counting the amount out loud as he goes. He pours the coins into two bags, listening to the sound of them clinking together, and giving the bags a noisy shake for good measure.
"Satisfied?" he asks the idler.
"Yes," says he, reaching out his hand. But the agent passes both bags to the woodcutter.
"But what about my payment?" asks the idler.
"Oh, you've been paid in full. You made a few worthless sounds and you've been paid in kind."
When Christy got renamed as "God" all casual-like, I chuckled hard.
🤣 I also did! I was hoping someone else commented on that!🤣🤣
Well, he does look like Jesus
Not as much as a JMike, though😂
Finally! Bear's lifestory is the evidence I need. I now believe in Santa Claus.
Sorry bro, you gotta believe in Santa for at least a whole year before he rewards you. It's in the fine print.
🙌🎅🏼
😄
If alcoholic Christians give up their faith and get sober, do they credit atheism for their sobriety?
Some might put it that way, most say they just managed to drop two addictions thanks to the light of their own rationality.
Alot of people oppose the AA because it introduces Christianity in their steps to sobriety and those that deconvert sometime after having found God through there, say they merely swapped one addiction for another.
So they argue rightly that religion shouldn't be part of their steps to recovery, as it doesn't help them do so and instead just shifts them over to something else over helping them stand on their own feet without some such crutch. 💁♂️
I know a couple folks who did deconvert as part of their sobriety journey. It helped them to be mentally healthy.
This makes me wonder how recovering alcoholics who are Catholic take communion.
Forrest is so f'n good. Love how he politely cut off the caller before he went into his whole tired personal experience spiel.
Thank you so much guys for giving up your own time to help people use rationality and reason.
I would pay good money to see Forrest having a chat with Ray Comfort, Ken Ham, Frank Turek or any of the other outspoken apologists.
That chat would be pointless. They wouldn't listen. Aaron ra did it and they just don't listen to anything but what they think
Great discussion.. no one called the other evil or stupid. Would love to see more discussions like this
Believers still couldn't understand that "personal experience" is just a personal experience... nothing more... it doesn't mean that personal experience is not true but it is definitely not always the truth... and billion of people have different personal experiences that it is not possible for every experience to be true - especially those personal experiences conflicting with other personal experiences...
I honestly feel like personal experiences conversion stories should be scrapped altogether. It's way more likely that a person's brain is doing weird shit rather than all laws of physics being suspended for one single person to go to heaven
Every personal experience is true...for that person.
@@stevepierce6467 still not objective... Which is the point of the commenter
@@Daniel-wr9ql Perhaps we mean personal perception instead of personal experience. Everything I have experienced is what I experienced. But how I perceive it, interpret it, is certainly very subjective.
I had a personal experience when I was on meth and heroin. Lots of shadow people talking to me
Great episode thx to the awesomeness of each host..
Well as a Christian, the Bible says it, I believe it, and that's THAT. (Sarcasm).
I'm a recovering addict (sex, alcohol, coke, and, my main love, heroin) and struggle with other mental health problems, was in the streets since I was old enough to hold dope in my sock and wear handcuffs, have lost more family, friends, associates, and acquaintances than I have left at this point which started at 3, but hard when my best friend died when I was 8, and just kept going up, came up very poor in a very rough environment, the list could go on but I don't want it to sound like a pity party cause I'm just tryna say I've overcome a whole lot and know many who have been through a lot worse and did so without gods. Science did far more for us than any religion could. I can sympathize with folks who happen to go through a significant transformation or transition while they also found religion or genuinely did find some comfort in whatever myth landed for em, but I still think it's important to push back and help people understand that the strength came from within all along 💪🏴
I recommend Anthony Magnabosco and street epistimology as a great tool for evaluating his beliefs. He was a great help to me and helped me figure out what I believed and why.
Boosting this one because I was gonna post it. Seeing conversations with people who have to completely reevaluate their epistemologies just from simple questions is extremely valuable.
Yup Anthony is my go-to suggestion for people in this position. They can walk through the thought process
I had a deconversion moment. My personal experience proves that God doesn't exist.
As neither of us can legitimately claim our experience is more real than the other's, it seems to me than personal experience is not a reliable means of proof.
But we knew that anyway.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature You cannot deconvert from being a troll creature.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreatureReally? Are you sure?
Here, let me try... ... ...
Ok. Done. Just deconverted.🤭🤭🤭
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
Let's see.
I used to have a belief in the existence of a transcendent entity.
I had an experience that made me realise there was no such entity.
Maybe deconvert wasn't the optimal choice, but then that would be getting side tracked by semantics.
Conclusion: As suspected, you are talking bollox.
You convinced me. I don't believe in whatever God you don't believe in.
@@jamesparson
That's nice
It's well known that grabbing pre-seven-year-old venerable young children where at this age, on average, they haven't yet acquired the ability to challenge, it certainly works well, I suppose that's why all of the religions go for this method of recruitment.
Hey Bear,
"Why Evolution Is True" by Jerry Coyne is an excellent layperson's book on evolution.
Is there one that someone of Bear's "caliber" can understand?
@@jquest99 I don't know if we have enough evidence to say he wouldn't understand...
Evolution is phoney. Prove random mutation (mistakes) turned fish into terrestrial life.
@@dawkins5824
Poor cLied.
He lied.
He lied about lies.
Sad.
@@dawkins5824 🤦♂️
I was never convinced about there being a god, and my parents were not pushy about that.
However I did get into Astrology quite deeply until around age 30 or so.
My attraction to this was that the movement of planets are mathematically predictable.
However It took a while to figure out that this has nothing to do with somebodies personality or circumstances that happen to them.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
Nope
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreatureLOL! Increaturnated! So I guess your imagination is getting a tiny bit better.
Too bad that doesn't make your imaginary god creature regardless sweetheart any more real, creature. 🤭🤭🤭
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature "increaturinated"... that just makes me think you believe god pissed us out
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature you still fail
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature oh hey, I remember you. I saw your comment before which was maybe a year ago (don’t remember). I see your still a clown 🤡 going around telling people that you’re right and we’re wrong.
Sounded like a good, productive call to my ears. As far as book recommendations go, I can't recommend it enough: _Before the Dawn_ by Nicholas Wade. It's brilliant and downright jaw-dropping.
1:37 when you realize you're predictable, and the "How could this happen to me? I made my mistakes..." song starts playing in the background.
The deconversion for me was the stories that are supposedly the word of god. They are so utterly ridiculous ,conflicting,and not reflecting the knowledge of reality which we have gained that my 50 years of faith became a desperate wanting it to be true followed by acceptance and a new appreciation of how valuable life is right now
You go rick!
In my case, I was more ignorant and in denial. When I was a Christian, I believed in a lot of crazy things. Hell I even thought that Kent Hovind and Ray Comfort were smart 😂. I would always use the argument,” Something comes from nothing” argument against atheists. However, deep inside, I actually had questions about my belief. I had questions like, “If god knows everything, then why did he create the devil,” “What if someone who lives in another country doesn’t know about the Bible? Does this person go to hell??” Etc.
I had many questions about my belief; however, I chose to simply ignore those questions because I thought it was the “devil’s” way of deceiving and trying to get me to turn into an atheist. So I decided to not question anything, and continue believing in God.
In the end, those questions kept bothering me, and I couldn’t ignore them, so that is when I decided that maybe god isn’t real.
I was also once an Evolution denier. I would use arguments like,” If evolution is true then why are there monkeys today,” “ Evolution is just a theory,” “If Evolution is true then show me a dog producing a cat” etc.
@@ftumusiclover1239 so now that you no longer deny evolution, what evidence have you discovered that we are descended from any other species. whether an ape or a bacteria? The theory of evolution goes so far past one species suddenly transforming into another - it starts with the beginning of life - WHERE DID THE FIRST ATOM come from - If there is NO BEGINNING there can be NOTHING - yet there obviously is,
@@ookeekthelibrarian Doesn't tell us where the first bit of life or even the first bit of non-living matter comes from tho, does it? Evolution is a 'theory' that never addresses the root cause of creation - because it CAN"T scientifically - so the cause of the beginning of all life is discarded as unimportant. The "THEORY" is silly from its outset because it is based on flawed human understanding.
Pathetic attempt to prove a god from personal experience. My life is x therefore god. I felt this therefore god. Wishful thinking at best. Why do people feel the need to think that there is someone or something looking over them and controlling their lives now and for eternity. Something beyond their parents, family friends or personal responsibility. It's your life and you do not need to bow down or kow tow to anything proven or unproven, real or imagined, human or non human.
A psychological comfort blanket?
The evidence against god is dinosaurs, I can go to a museum and SEE remains of dinosaurs, i can't go to a museum and see the remains of god
he needs to be dead first - people think he is still alive - why would there be remains
@@SNORKYMEDIA he,s not papa Smurf pal IF he ever existed his carcass is well and truly dead !!!!
it's evidence for dinosaurs, not evidence against god. I'm an atheist too but I can't claim that god doesn't exist.
@@zucc4764 ok, but on the balance of probability it's a safe bet that he doesn't ,but if we are both wrong I'm happy to walk up to the gate of hell with a smile on my dial
@@zucc4764 we can definitely say that any biblical god that theses people believe in isn’t real or doesn’t exist. If you can disprove one god, you can definitely disprove the others. Plus is a ‘god’ the same as a ‘creator’? If someone makes something does that mean they rule over you?! There’s many questions but logically it would suggest that there is no god. And that god would be irrelevant anyways seeing as it has done nothing with us for the last 450 billion + years.
I see, I'm an athiest. I didn't use drugs. My life is fine so what, where s the beef bear? No evidence for God.
At least this caller is not as deluded and obnoxious like many other callers. He made an experience that led him on a certain path, but he has not yet reached the deep dark forrest. He still is aware that his arguments will not convince anyone else and he has no proof for them. And I would not force someone like him on the path of deconversion, but guide him to not slip further into religious extremism.
Ho-ly shit.. that was pretty cordial, first time I don't hear a believer get on his high horse and spew the usual lines of argument.. he actually asked for literature so he can be better informed
I don't like his chances. There's a reason that thinking for yourself is discouraged in cults.
I never believed even as a child as it just seemed nonsense. I am genuinely baffled why a grown adult would believe such nonsense to be true. Sapiens? OK if you say so. I would suggest The God Virus by Darrel Ray.
I know people say that God loves me because the Bible tells me so. I would need to get registered letter at the very least!
Personal experience doesn't equal proof
Bear you sound like a nice person but the fact you believe Jesus changed your life, it doesn't make it true. Especially since those of other faiths also have their I couldn't have changed my life without my particular deity stories.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature
That’s a lie though.
Isn’t that against the arbitrary rules of xtianity.
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature you have no creature god creature despite your obvious crush on me
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature What if I'm not a creature and I am in fact an animal? Does that mean I don't have a god?
Looking up creature and the first definition is the one I'm going with which is "an animal, as distinct from a human being"
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature What if I'm not a creature and I am in fact an animal? Does that mean I don't have a god?
Looking up creature and the first definition is the one I'm going with which is "an animal, as distinct from a human being"
@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature Well I was created in a lab by medically trained humans no god was involved that I have any reason to believe. If I were to be convinced it would have to be well documented, demonstrable, and independently verifiable evidence that has been thoroughly tested and peer reviewed, or at least can be.
So if you are next going to make the claim that one of the 10,000 + gods people have made up over the years was involved you would need to back it up. Otherwise I will know that your claims don't have any ground to stand on, and that there is no reason to pay any attention to them.
So what will it be do you actually have some demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence that has been or can be tested and peer reviewed, or are you just pulling shit out of your ass?
The other day a pigeon flew over my head holding an iPhone. I could’ve thought it was supernatural, but instead I looked for a natural explanation. Low and behold I found that somebody gave the pigeon an old iPhone that they didn’t want. Case closed.
That wasn't a "real" pigeon. Just sayin'....
I'm curious about why they gave it to pigeon and why it took it.
@@valivali8104 maybe the pigeon needed a new phone?
@@Glasstable2011 it must have been disappointed when it realized that touch-screens aren’t made for peak and claws.
Quite a refreshing episode.. No yelling, no swearing.. -sign-.. You will be missed Matt..
I absolutely respect Matt's slightly more aggressive approach to discussing religion and beliefs. I think Matt's approach is a bit better suited to debating seasoned apologists and more fundamentalist believers to make them see the errors in their ways but his rock solid reasoning and rationality is good for casual believers as well, as long as they listen and answer the questions!
Both techniques are very good and effective imo.
Sapiens is one fantastic book. Yuval Noah Harari is an absolute genius
100% couldn't agree more. It's an absolute perfection piece. I loved it
@@deanmoncaster did you read Homo Deus? Not really my thing but a good sequel to Sapiens
@@drmojo5439 I haven't got there yet. I own the book but not started it 😁
Christy says 'I can point to people that I have worked with as a therapist who have changed their relationship with alcohol or other drugs who have got their family in order because of our work together.. I have miracles that I can show you, then why is that standard of proof different from your religious experience?' Nobody said it was. Christy literally talked about being able to show the caller miracles he had seen people experience from turning their life round and used that as proof against God. That makes no sense. Christy all you did was prove that God was working through your work with others. That is not a proof against God, that is a proof for God.
I feel really sorry for the undiscovered tribes of people in the Amazon who've never had the opportunity to understand the Bible so they all go to hell just for being private
How did I lose my faith? I read the Bible without blinders on.
Snap
How do you know it was 'faith' in God that you lost?
@@wwlib5390-- I was a born again, Evangelical, fundamentalist, "on fire for Christ " believer. But reading the Bible is how I came to know that women were subordinate to men, owning other people as property was condoned, severely beating them was allowed, executing homosexuals was commanded. It calls for genocide and infanticide and a host of other horrors.
The conclusion is inescapable; the Bible's god either doesn't exist or isn't holy. As Isaac Asimov said, “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”*
@gordon3186 What did you believe about Christ that caused you to be ‘on fire” for Him at one time before your reading of Scripture caused you to abandon that belief and faith in Him?
I may have misunderstood your comment, but are you saying that the ‘fire for Christ’ died because of the truthful accounts recorded in the Bible of His dealings with mankind - particularly in those laws Moses gave to the Hebrew nation? Can the Bible be considered trustworthy (as a way to or not to live our life) if it paints a rosy and deceitful picture of goody-goody Hebrews as God’s chosen ones, rather than telling you of their many faults and failures and God’s continual bouts of mercy and judgment upon them as He leads them onward?
You listed a few laws that had provoked this leaving of the faith... but may I turn your attention to one other: the laws of Moses allowing divorce.
Jesus asked the Pharisees “What did Moses command you (about divorce)?”
“Well, he permitted it,” they replied. “He said a man can give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away.”
And Jesus answered... “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.” You can read the rest of His statement if you wish in Mark 10.
Jesus makes it clear that the Laws given to Moses, at least about divorce, were because of the people’s hard-heartedness, and was NOT the original intent of God’s perfect plan for mankind. I wonder how many other laws given to Moses were also given because of hardened and rebellious hearts? If you reflect on the teachings of Jesus with an eye toward God’s original intent, would it make a difference in how you have perceived them? YOU don’t treat women as subordinates or beat others or execute homosexuals - and because of that, you show yourself to be understanding of God’s intent for mankind - in those cases, you show yourself not to have a hardened, rebellious heart but believe inherently to follow Jesus' second command - love others..
I hope you will see that your ‘conclusion’ may not be inescapable and that you will re-consider your ‘first love’ and the ‘Fire’ it created in you. I wish you well.
@@wwlib5390 Less fee fees, more evidence.
"i dont think" and , "i dont/do believe" is almost stupid..it's like as saying." i think you're an asshole...or..."i believe you're the devil"...the difference is...stupidity is ignorance mixed with arrogance and everyone knows ignorance is just "not knowing"
Are you saying that disbelief in a higher power is ignorance?
@@EyeonthePrize247 how did you manage to glean that from that comment?
@@clubpenguin13531
I’m genuinely confused by the wording, that’s why I asked.
If you don't know, you don't know. Real ignorance is claiming to know something you don't.
Forrest is amazing he's the next Matt delahunty just as smart but a lot calmer
good caller and conversation. well done
If your beliefs are not changed by facts, then your beliefs are not based on reality.
The only evidence of a sky magician would be if he came to Earth and says here I am. Well it seems he has never visited earth. I wonder why? Maybe he doesn't exist.
Theists are full of excuses and will come up with one or two or three, as many as it takes to twist, spin, deflect and lie for their faith.
Personally, I think it’s Q or the Gou’ald screwing with humanity.
😁
Wonder why they having trouble to prove their god over and over again...
I think it is only mental and they don't have any other explanation.🙄
Aron and Forrest should totally collaborate on an evolution video.
I have a reference for the caller, keep watching this TH-cam channel & watched the years of archieved shows from the past. Awesome thought provoking info right here to get you to think!
"I'm a therapist" is usually code for "I don't have any professional counselling qualifications".
People who have studied psychology usually call themselves psychologists.
I used to tell people that I was a freelance pharmacologyst but really I was just a drug addict
People always try to proselytize by giving a biased testimony.
Sometime they cherry pick the bible.
Fact: EVERY religion has individuals who will have a similar story - they were religious, then fell away and their lives got worse, and then they made their way back to their religion and PRESTO, their lives improved. So now you have to ask yourself a simple question: How can that POSSIBLY be if only YOUR religion is "true", according to the teachings OF your religion. Because it ought not be, right? If your deity is the one and only "TRUE" deity, then only YOUR deity should have that "power" to better your life. And yet, that is not the case because, as I've said at the beginning, EVERY religion has similar if not identical stories. In the end, there's one, and ONLY one, common denominator: The individual. The human being. YOU. You WANTED, or maybe even NEEDED, to attribute the betterment of your life to an invisible and unproveable deity, when in actual fact it is YOU that decided to change your life around. And that should suffice, and YOU should take the credit for making your own life better after having gone down a path of self-destruction. The reasoning can be different for each person (but I would assume that they ALL have something in common, too), but again, why give credit for what YOU did to something else EXCEPT yourself?
Another example of how religion has poisoned the minds of human beings. Religion wants to dictate that YOU are not in control of your own life, that there's a deity who IS in control, and everything GOOD is that deity's doing, but everything bad is either your own fault or that of the nemesis of that "all powerful" deity. Personal responsibility and/or accountability. Try it sometime. It's both liberating AND frightening at the same time!
@@jaflenbond7854 There is no, nor has there ever been, a "god". It was a creation of mankind to give people a semblance of hope that there was more than a single lifetime, because the fact is that humans have NEVER accepted their inevitable mortality. They have ALWAYS yearned for "eternal life", which is impossible. Ergo, make people BELIEVE that there's a CHANCE (even if your preferred religious texts tells you that MOST "believers" won't even make it to "heaven"), and you have a cult that will WILLINGLY and HAPPILY do as they're told to MAYBE enjoy the promise of "eternal life" under the dictatorship of a "benevolent" being. Give me a break!
@@jaflenbond7854 You're absolutely and COMPLETELY wrong. Atheists and other religions, but ESPECIALLY atheists, will ALL tell you that there ARE things in the bible that are valuable. But here's the thing. We, as a species, don't NEED a book to tell us that some things are better for us individually or collectively as opposed to other things, like murder, stealing, et al. These things are common sense to the VAST majority of human beings. And they have ALWAYS been common sense. But a book confirms this for us, therefore it's a "good" book? Please!!
Religion is not WORTHLESS per se, because in the delusions of people that WANT and NEED to believe in an afterlife, it gives them some sort of hope. False hope, but hope nonetheless. And I, as an atheist, have come to make peace with the fact that I have ONE life, irrespective of whether it's a simualtion or real, and that I will live THIS life to the best of my ability, do what's right for me, my family, and my friends, and not do anything to the best of my ability that will negatively impact the lives or livelihoods of people around me. I just reject the notion of a deity that watches me and everyone else, as do the vast majority of atheists as far as I'm aware. That does not, in any way, shape or form, say that my morals are better or worse than yours or anyone else's.
Furthermore, every religion in the world calls other religions the "false" religion, and that THEIR "deity" is the "TRUE" deity. So the question arises: Who's right, and who's wrong. Obviously, they can't ALL be right. But they COULD all be wrong. Including atheists! And I'm sorry, but personal "testimonies" and a centuries old book that was translated from copies of translations of copies, and finally decided by a SMALL number of individuals as to what WILL be added in such a "sacred" document does NOT and CAN not convince ANYONE that it is real. Yes, there ARE good things in there, but again, these are or should be obvious. But there is a LOT that is as far-fetched as The Lord of the Rings.
Final thought. It seems that you believe, also, in "hell" and the "devil", and that ALL who stray from the express orders of your deity will be "punished" for eternity in the kingdom that is ruled by the entity that strayed from your god. Why and how would the "devil" punish those who did or do what HE himself did, i.e stand up to a dictator who did not like to have his "power" questioned? Me, I think that your god and the "devil" are one and the same. Because logically speaking, the "devil" would be best buddies with ALL who defied the one that he stood up against! Your "god", and especially your bible, is a LOT like a Communist regime: They tell YOU what the other side said or did, but you NEVER get to actually hear FROM the other side, because they're not allowed to speak to the people, and if they do, the consequences are dire.
@@sportsfaninternational1614 These are facts -
1. All atheists, agnostics, and fanatics of all religions are NOT believers of the BIBLICAL authority and teachings of Jesus Christ about the Kingdom of God and Resurrection of the Dead and NOT worshippers too of the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
2. All atheists, agnostics, and fanatics of all religions will just become worthless and useless dusts on earth forever after their deaths.
@@jaflenbond7854 👈 *doesn't own a Bible. Has never read a Bible.* Thinks he is qualified to have an opinion about the contents of the Bible. Thinks his OPINION is better than 3 BILLION people, most of whom DO own a Bible, and better than the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS who have have actually read it. 🤦🏻
🤣🤣🤣
@@ookeekthelibrarian The BIBLE is the only book in the world that exposes the Satanic lies, arrogance and foolishness of Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian Religions in the world.
ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM, and RELIGIOUS FANATICISM are WORTHLESS and USELESS, no value whatsoever to imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings.
The Creator KNOWS that Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non- Christian Religions joined the anti- Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions in mocking and degrading his Christ's BIBLICAL authority and teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" as worthless and useless, no value whatsoever in their lives and existence.
Jesus Christ KNOWS that Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian Religions joined the God of the anti-Christs, Satan the Devil, in mocking and degrading the Creator as worthless, useless and not deserving to be honored and obeyed as the Most High and Sovereign God.
The Creator and his Christ KNOW that Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian Religions who joined Satan the Devil and his anti-Christs in mocking and degrading their authorities, teachings, and commandments as worthless and useless are nothing but worthless and useless human beings who'll just become worthless and useless dusts on earth forever after their inescapable deaths.
Okay, so I have a personal story.
I have followed the words of Jesus my entire life. (Shh... I have obtained two college degrees, raised two children, been caring and patient, considered my personal motivations carefully. My wife was in a head on collision at 29 years of age. She suffered traumatic brain injury and sustained physical injuries that required an average of one surgery every two years for decades. I have been involved in the community, helpful in any way I could be. I have always taken responsibility for whatever life has put in my path. I have taken care of the people in my life and extended my hand to anyone that needed it, whenever it was within my ability to do so. I have sustained on hard work, intelligent consideration and hope my entire life.
Yet, I am unhappy. I am alone in my personal life. I have no intimate, loving relationship in my life.
Given the "reasoning" that Bear employs, my personal testimony then stands as proof that God clearly doesn't exist. Bear's random anecdote of having figured out to stop f'in up his own life and finding that it got better doesn't stand as "proof" of anything.
I'm not gay but if you need a close personal relationship I don't mind helping out now and then?
"I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence. I believe that this universe's intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: *this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science."* -Antony Flew
Exactly. Great quote.
Aron Ra would be a great guest on your channel Forrest
If someone claims that there is an elephant behind the screen, then that person needs to provide proof for their claim, not the one who says “yes there is/no, there is not”. You know, burden of proof and stuff like that. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
This message is for the caller. You mentioned that you were concerned that for some religious people (and I suspect by extention potentially yourself), when something bad happens to burst the God created bubble in their life, they may turn away from God and become worse that they were before they got their life together through Gods intervention.
The problem is that by not giving yourself credit for the amazing achievement of lifting yourself out of your own personal hell and giving it to God, you are setting yourself up for disappointment when inevitably something bad does happen.
YOU did this.
YOU made the difference in your life.
YOU were the one that had the strength to stand up and push back and make your life better.
YOU have the courage and determination to get past the let downs and blows that life deals us.
I can't understand why you would give that credit to "anyone" else. You are doing yourself a huge disservice by making the claim that you are weak and that it was God that lifted you up. You should be incredibly proud of yourself for what you've achieved, not handing the credit to anything else.
WELL DONE SIR.
If you change the way you look at things
The things you look at change
That’s pretty deep! If I would’ve read that high, my mind would have exploded
Huh?
I recently saw a documentary about young people who grew up in religious schools, and their teachers made them feel that they were hopeless sinners. Unless they prayed and cried for mercy from god or allah. And suddenly they gave up on it, and were free from all guilt and shame that had held them down for so many years.
whats the title?
Love both of these hosts. More
Christy "God" Powell. Nice.
I believe in Christy.
If the caller sees this comment, have a look at AronRa series called Refuting the Irrefutable Proof of God” on TH-cam.
"Now that I know that god is real in my life YOU must now believe me and what ever I say. And YOU must do what I tell you to do and live YOUR life the way I tell you to do just the same as if god is telling you what to do, because I now speak for god. Listen to me as if god is talking to you becasue god told me to speak for him and tell YOU what to do. Oh, and you need to give me money."
Evidence *for* atheism? WTF?
For some people, having a religious church community around them does help. You have that support structure. The problem is they confuse that will a divine being.
If you see everything you think is "good" as from your god and
everything you think is "evil" from your satan,
then you always see confirmed what you want to believe.
Nice system of self-delusion.
Like many religious apologists, Bear doesn’t understand who needs to show proof. Theists make the claim, so THEY need proof. Nobody else needs proof when you make a claim. I know that “burden of proof” thing is very complicated. Some kids learn it when they’re 3 or 4. Other kids take longer. Some kids(theists) never learn it.🤤
I'm three minutes in and the caller was supposedly coming with proof, didn't provide any and is now asking the hosts what proof they would need. It really just goes to show how sheltered so many people are - even this guy who says that he's relatively new to "sincere" belief - that they don't understand why their "proof" isn't anything of the sort and why others don't accept it or any of the other unfounded claims made by apologists and other believers.
You know what my number one suggestion would be? Read Bible, cover to cover. If you have any critical thinking skills you'll arrive at right conclusion.
I am astounded that so many theists believe that anyone who is an Atheist has "Lost" their faith. Well, surprise, there are many, many, many people who have NEVER believed a God/Gods exist. So many assumptions, so little time.
A)there is no atheist apologetics.
B) I've always found it funny that the field of study to try and reconcile Christian and other religious beliefs to reality is called apologetics.
Apologetic means to regretfully excuse or explain a failure.
It is like they're acknowledging how stupid it is right in the name
One of the biggest whoppers so many Christians tell, is we are all 1 big happy family under God. Everyone who accepted Christ, is brother & sister to each other, a stronger family bond than blood family....
Just think about it for a few seconds, and see how flawed and ludicrous that sentiment is....
I spent years in Church believing that nonsense and saw for my myself how myriads of Christians out there really treat each other and by their own actions show that they sure heck don't believe nor practice the "happy family under God" ordeal, LOL
I wouldn’t recommend Harari’s books. Sapiens was an inaccurate view of history and his book 21 lessons is just pointing out problems and shooting down solutions.
There were couple of steps for me to became an atheist, one of them was the same as Forrest's one. I didn't believe in particular gods (I was an orthodox Christian as a kid though) and had beliefs in some spiritual things. I like to experiment with my life, so once I've decided to stop believing in anything spiritual to see if anything in my life would change. Because some things were more like superstitions, like, if you do A then you'll be lucky or something like that. And nothing has changed in my life when I stopped believing. That's how I realized that my luck or things in my life in general are not depending on those things. I've discovered term "magical thinking" a bit later in my life, but I'm glad to get rid of it, because it was never actually making anything nice to me.
Like Bear I used drugs and was extremely promiscuous and ive loved every f@cking minute of it.
Personal experience is probably the lamest and least convincing form of “evidence” there is. It doesn’t explain a thing and can justify believing in pretty much any religion.
What's sad to me is that these people go through extremely low and depressing times in life, and then credit their recovery to God. YOU did that. YOU got yourself healthy, got yourself clean, and you got yourself stable. You took the initiative and the steps to get better and you healed. Quit crediting your hard work to some fake God!
I would add "Doubt" by Jennifer Michael Hecht to that list of recommendations.
"I have proof of God!"
"What is it?"
"What proof do you have for atheism?"
Every time.
So amazing that people tribute evertthing to a so called god, and still thwy dont ever take any credit for changing their lifes for the better.
HOW IN THE WORLD can people still be that stupid.
As soon as people realize that all gods is just man made stories they would for sure finally see what people can really so when they put their mind to it.
Bear u should learn to take more credit for the things u do in ur life
That’s it. That’s all religion is. Personal experience. And that’s fine. And that’s where it should end. No one should ever push their personal beliefs on anyone else. And this is fundamentally what makes Christianity so toxic. Because they feel they have an obligation to push it onto other people.
Poor callers.
They try so hard to make sense of nonsensism.
It's like trying to play cricket in treacle. Just give up !
I find it so egotistical as well. They are sooooo special god personally helped them, but meanwhile thousands of kids die in hospitals.
Stories are NOT proof. Stop pretending already. And the irony is, these people probably helped themselves get over issues. Or had help from other people. But they thank some nonexistent mass slaughterer for their succes...... just sad
500,000 children were murdered in Iraq in a war based on the lies of WMDs. Corrupted politicians justified war criminals and crimes against humanity.
@@ookeekthelibrarian Children don't make wars, they suffer them. Adults, corrupted politicians and ahs who vote for them make wars. So when someone uses "childish" "juvenile" "immature" or "grow up" I remind them.
@@Angelum_Band echoing Ook, what the F does that have to do with anything? Edit: Other than as a pure Whataboutism, attempting to change the topic...
@@Angelum_Band "500,000 children were murdered in Iraq in a war based on the lies of WMDs."
George W Bush is on record as saying that "g0d" told him to do it!
@@Angelum_Band "So when someone uses "childish" "juvenile" "immature" or "grow up" I remind them that the g0d of the bible killed every child on earth because he fucked up his first attempt at creating humans.
Lol "I'm a very logical person"
*believes in god*
I do not think that word means what you think it means 🤣
As a recovering alco 18 months last Wednesday
I went to AA once and that was it, this guy is a classic born again recovering alco
I get it Bear, but you’re still wrong about your beliefs
I'm asrounded at the number of respectful theist callers. I know not everyone in a religion is the same, but I've heard enough stories to expect more people like Jesse Lee Peterson calling in.
Anybody can challenge you when you believe in ridiculous fairytales
I really really wanted it to be true. I was desperate for it to be true as I was making my living as a minister, while at the same time losing my faith. Months of prayer were spent asking for a little help in the faith without any response on the part of God. So basically God, if real, kept silent long enough to convince me he isn't there. Oddly enough I'd still like it to be true, but it just isn't.
I was very promiscuous in my early 20s it was bloody awesome. What’s not to like?
I’m glad Bear found his way out of a dark place and I believe he believes his experience proves some deity but I don’t believe him. I never believed my parents and I actually loved and respected them.
I called into Washington Journal many times when Christopher Hitchens was on. One time he misunderstood my point and snapped at me. Kind of an endearing memory now. He opened my eyes to nuts on the right and left. The way he destroyed the Bush haters was epic.
I met Aron Ra some years ago when he was speaking in San Diego. He is simply wonderful. He appears gruff, but he’s a sweetheart, and has no problem posing for selfies with his fans.
I lost it when they changed the chyron from Christy Powell to Christy "God" Powell.
I feel bad for Bear; he fell for the emotional traps of religion and now it's destroying him even more than drugs ever would. Now he is a slave to religious BS.
Less than 2 minutes in & Forrest proves he's a prophet. Do we start the Church of Valkai now?