I wouldn’t say more than Rangers but I do realize there’s a balance issue haha. This is only the first of my guide series so the joke is probably not apparent yet. But, I plan on making a “broken” video for every class haha.
@@ConstructedChaos Ranger actually were already a much stronger base class than Monks before Tasha's and got *a ton* of upgrades since then - Monks . . . not so much.
Base class is debatable but the gloomstalker can be absolutely ridiculous haha. But I have to disagree besides that. I honestly think that monks are better in many situations. I think the issue is that many people don’t properly leverage the ki mechanic and the ability to get all of that back on a short rest. Are they a bit underpowered? Yes. Are they so underpowered that they’re the worst class in the game or completely unplayable in 5e? Definitely not.
@@ConstructedChaos It probably would depend on the number of short rests per adventuring day between the "old" Ranger and the "old" Monk. If short rests are plentiful (3+ per day) than Monks were arguably ahead, if not, Rangers were certainly better because they had great spell selection since Xanathar's. Monks certainly weren't unplayable by any means - and could be tons of fun - but I would argue they were tied with Artificers as the weakest base class before Tasha's (Artificers had already come out in Ebberon and didn't change since then). Still, Monks were - and still are - fine and quite fun to play, imho.
I can agree there. My sessions do tend to be a bit lighter in terms of back to back combat encounters. I don’t run a whole lot of traditional dungeons so it makes sense that my experience would be different haha. Either way, your point here is mine as well. All of the available classes are “broken” in that they’re fun to play and can shine given the right opportunities. It’s what I’m trying to get across with my guide series in the first place :)
Subclasses: Way of the astral self: 05:56 Way of the cobalt soul: 06:17 Way of the drunken master: 06:31 Way of the four elements: 06:46 Way of the kensei: 07:01 Way of the long death 07:14 Way of mercy: 07:42 Way of the open hand: 07:53 Way of shadow: 08:12 Way of the sun soul: 08:31 Way of the ascendent dragon: 08:45
@@ConstructedChaos Thanks for not being toxic about my opinion. I love the idea of monk, am playing in a champing where I am monk and I have been for almost 2 years. And I understand people who think Stunning Strike is OP. And it can in 1v1 battle, against a creature with low Con, but if you fight against many monsters, with height Con, the close to useless. And such are most fighters. I mean "Stunning Strike" is the only great thing in the whole monks class and it is not enough for a whole class. I mean personally.
@@lucack6348 I see your point but if you’re fighting that many creatures with +9 Con and only a 15DC save, you’re going to have other problems and everyone is going to struggle-not just the monk. That said, I totally respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree haha.
I would like to say, in terms of production and presentation, this is a well made video and I definitely loved every minute of it. This being said, I fail to see how the Monk is overpowered in this video. You basically go through the Monk class and subclasses and adeptly describe their distinct flavors... but that's it. Monks are definetly cool, but overpowered? I must respectfully disagree with such heresy. If anything they are possibly the weakest class in the game, mechanically. Definetly the worst martial class in the game. While the Way of the Mercy and Astral Self monks are somewhat better than other monastic traditions, they are still rather weak. Despite Wizard's best efforts, the Monk remains weak for the following reasons: -They continue to deal the least damage of all martial classes (no sneak attack, no great weapon master, weak base weapon die and forced to use their bonus action and limited ressources to deliver subpar damage). Sure Stunning Strike is decent but it targets the most resilient Monster Saving throw (Constitution), always targets 1 creature, and always lasts 1 round even at high levels. At the same level the monk gets this signature ability, other classes are casting spells like suggestion, Hold Person, Web, Fear and Hypnotic Pattern. And it just gets worse at higher levels, because Stunning Strike then competes with the likes of Otto's Irresistable Dance, Wall of Force and Forcecage. Wall of Force and Forcecage particularly drive this argument home since they can completely eliminate a threat and don't require the target to fail a single saving throw and they lost way longer than a round. -They have the worst AC amongst all martial classes except the Rogue (which has better consistent mobility and ranged attack capabilities). They also have low HP compared to most martial classes that fight in melee (same as the rogue, but at least the Rogue is great from range). Yet, Monks must fight in melee... -They make awful tanks, not only because of the aformentioned weak AC and HP, but because they have average saving throws until level...14! By that time, the fighter has so many feats he's probably proficient in 3 saving throws and can reroll some failed ones. Then you look at the paladin and it's just sad. They basically get a similar bonus to all their saving throws, but 8 levels earlier! To add insult to injury, they can extend this bonus to the whole party... -And then there's the most problematic issue, the KI mechanic. With the exception of monks in TCE, too many of the classe's features cost KI, which means they burn them way to fast. Sure they regain them on a short rest but 1 KI point per level isn't huge, especially when they need to flurry of blows every round (1 KI) and potentially use stunning strike on most of their attacks each round (1-4 extra KI points). Add in the potential need to use patient defense and step of the wind sometimes and those points are gone faster than a bunch of twinkies at a weight watchers meeting. Still, good video!
Thanks so much for all the thought and detail put into this comment! Your points are very much sound and resonate with a lot of the other feedback I’ve received so far. And, in large part, I don’t disagree. As I’ve mentioned in other comments this video is more of a guide to the monk class that focuses on its good parts rather than the bad. I’m a firm believer that all classes can be played effectively in 5E (even the monk). Especially when combat isn’t necessarily the main focus of the game anymore. One can certainly argue that good RP is the goal of most campaigns now-although that varies of course. And, while I do understand your point about the ki mechanics in 5E, I do find that most games allow enough time in between multiple combats for a short rest-allowing for a monk to regain ALL their ki points. I, personally, don’t often run more than a few combats back to back and I find that consistent across the majority of sessions I watch and play in as well. Again, I don’t think what you’re saying is invalid. And I don’t actually think that monks are overpowered all the way around. But, like every class is (and like every class should be) they do have some aspects that can feel broken. Everyone has an opportunity to shine! Does that devalue words like “broken” or “overpowered” in the first place? Yes, definitely. But I thought it necessary to use that verbiage in this video series to drive that point home. I’ve done the same in my Wizard guide as well as the one for Ranger that I’m working on currently!
@@ConstructedChaos Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, the class is a lot of fun. I was just taken aback slightly by your video's title. Great production all around. I've subscribed. Good luck with your channel!
@@unscathedhero8884 thanks so much for subscribing and I’m hoping my ideals become more clear to people watching these videos as I make more of them. Either way, yours isn’t the first comment with concerns regarding the title and I’ve definitely been a bit more conscious of my naming conventions since this video was published! As always, I really appreciate the feedback!
@@unscathedhero8884 I think a good feat for a monk would be something like at level 11 if creatures analyzed by monk have disadvantage when attacking said monk
Man, your delivery of the information is fantastic. You're speaking with awe in your voice instead of just shouting at us and that accompanied with the music is so inspiring. Now I want to play one even more.
I see a problem with using the word "broken" for "can do something useful once or twice per game", that's not broken (at least not in a good way you are impliyng), that's working as intended at best. It's a bit silly to call this "broken", while there are shepherd druids, bearbarian druids, sorlocadins, and twilight clerics. Cmon, that's not even close. At least you could propose a way to build your monk to be broken, not just read out the roolbook entry on monks
This video is a class guide. I say as much in the description and title. I understand monks are less powerful than most other classes. I say as much in other comments here. I think the point that you’re missing is that this attitude that revolves around building only the most powerful and efficient characters is only one way to play the game. Every class brings something to the table and every character has the opportunity to be broken. I have literally cited examples wherein I’ve DM’d for players running a monk build that have decimated combat encounters that were supposed to be deadly CR. But, thank you for your input. Your opinion is just as valid as mine.
@@ConstructedChaos I have a great time with the monk class but they are the weakest class and the worst subclass options. Stun isn’t enough when everything else eats your limited ki pool so rapidly. Spellcasters just have better save or suck options and other options. They scale super well up to level 5 then it is just underwhelming. They are much better with Fizbans and Tashas but didn’t get nearly the overhaul rangers did and needed it more. Also ki fueled attack doesn’t work like that it’s a free attack when your action uses ki not a ki cost attack regardless of your action which is essentially useless.
While I totally agree with the capstone being lackluster I think the real capstone is Empty Body. Monk invisibility is super broken. Your invisibility isn't a spell so it cannot be dispelled, and it isn't broken by combat so you are just invisible for 1 minute. Which means all your attacks are at advantage, while all attacks against you are at disadvantage and you have resistance to all damage but force. I think the intention of the capstone was to immediately turn invisible and run away if you found yourself in a situation where you really didn't want to be.
For sure!! Didn’t mean to undersell the value of the 18th level ability. I hadn’t actually thought about the possibility of using your Perfect Self to just instantly pop Invisibility either! Pretty smart move there!
@@shinobidaniel_12 Yeah true, but at that point the con save on things is insane. I feel like that ability is more there to make the dm's generally smug nature at that point when they hear the words "con save" disappear and force a legendary resistance to pop, and even then do a great amount of damage.
I love the monk class. I made a kenku monk, wanting to go way of the four elements. The dm threw a super strong enemy at us, a group of five, and I was the only one still alive at the end cos it couldn't hit me. The dm then threw me out of the game because it turns out he wanted a tpk for "story reasons" straight away.
I mean yeah, he turned out to be. Mind you, it was my second time playing, but I rolled stat's in front of them and the dm approved my character in the first place. But oh well, dodged a bullet
Monk needs fist weapons like wraps and gloves for unarmed combat. So they can be magically infused and convert to other damage types. Also, a hadoken-type cantrip wouldn't hurt; something that doesn't burn ki. Maybe make a class that makes hadokens scale and multiplies with ki usage. (Obviously less scale than other spells so it is not broken --- burning 8 ki with a scaled cantrip would be ridiculous) Or maybe gain Ki from Crits; that would be dope. Imagine flurry of blows crits and ki flowing back from flawless execution.
@@drewmannMcGee yes, you can: house rule it. But that doesn't work for 5E, it only works for your table. If you only ever play in your game and don't do TH-cam evaluation/build/etc videos that's great! Go for it! Otherwise it's kinda pointless in generic DnD 5E as it doesn't work that way.
I don't understand one thing u say about Stunning Strike. How can you use stunning strike after UNARMED STRIKE from Flurry of Blows when Stunning Strike says you have to hit another creature with a MELEE WEAPON ATTACK?
It can be a bit confusing but unarmed strikes are considered melee weapon attacks. However, they aren't considered melee attacks with weapons as is required by sneak attack, smite, etc. It's silly but it is the way it works.
I haven’t had the opportunity to play Kensei yet but I have heard it’s one of the weakest mechanically! That’s awesome of your DM to let you power it up a bit, though! I’d be interested to know what changes y’all made!
@@ConstructedChaos for one. He upgraded the martial arts die so that at level 8 currently its a D8. And eventually around level 17 i think it becomes a D12. We also use a lot of stuff from tashas so things like focused aim and deft strike are immediately available for the current level. He also changed that the unarmed strike bonus action can be made with a weapon. And at level 11 that also applies to flurry of blows. A level 7 boon to give the character active parry as a reaction by adding martial arts die to my armor class when targeted by an attack. Ever since level 5 hes slowly felt more and more like a Witcher.
Which is unfortunate. I have been waiting for a good kensai reboot since the original oriental adventures. Most attempts are abominations. Making it a monk subclass was something I have been screaming since 3rd. By the time it happened, the monk had had it's proverbial nuts cut off.
I just wanted to write this for anybody that gets discouraged from playing a monk. If i upset people because i sound stupid, Im sorry. It was not my purpose. My purpose was to help people look at it from a different perspective. Imagine a horde of troglodytes coming to attack your party and your in a cave, and you decide to wait until they get as close as possible to you, and before they do, you tell your party to close their eyes/dont look at you, and then all the suddenl all the troglodytes within 30 ft of you make a wis saving throw or are frightened of you. Now its just free real estate for you and your party. This is what lvl 6 monk of long death can do. And they can do this any amount of times they want. From my time of playing a monk i wouldnt say monk IS broken. From my experience, monk CAN be broken, or have its overpowering moments. The class is one of those classes where if your going to play it, and want really good value out of it, you cant just be laid back with your thinking. No. This class shines when you put your actual critical thinking cap on. One thing a lot of players i notice like to talk about is the lack of tankiness this class has as a martial class. See, with how the monk is built, i reaaaally really dont think thats what their intended for. I mean, look at all the benefits of mobility you can have with a monk. If that doesnt scream "hit and run" to me, then i dont know what does. especially when you can have a feat like mobile. "Lemme just hit you, then this guy,and then move back like 20+feet away. Ope, cant AOP me. Your not going to get high damage output like the other martial classes, yes, thats true. But you can constantly just whip around the battlefield constantly harrassing things left and right, making it good for a campaign that likes to have multiple mob like enemies. "But if your targeted its game over" Lets be real here, i highly doubt your going to be the target the enemy will be worried about at first. The enemey is going to see your spellcaster, or your big brolic barbarian, and they are gonna want to do something to them. And even if you WERE going to be a target. Your going to be the one targets thats going to be a pain to just do something about. Especially when its later levels after you basically become a saving throw god. Instead of trying to be a constant "up close and always expecting to take hits" come at it with im "trying to take as least amount of hits as possible, and then keep dishing out these small lbursts of damage around the table" Besides. with all due respect, im pretty sure the key idea of being a martial artist is not to be hit in the first place. And if you do, you want to make sure you dont take as much of a hard hit as possible. So in conclusion. Are you going to be a big, huge, hard hitting juggernaut, no. Are you going to be able to throw a rock at someones face then next thing you know, a fireball spell goes off, no.your gonna have to go somewhere else for that Buuuuuuuut. Eventuallyyyyyyy. Will you need to eat or drink? No are you going to be a fast af boy that can zoom around the battlefield, poking enemies, where its enough to be annoying like a mosquito, yes. Are you going to be a Massive thorn in your DMS side if they try to make you charmed, frightened, age you, language barrier you, poison or disease you, or force your monk in a situation where they have to jump from reaaaally high altitude, but you are perfectly fine after you fall as you sprint across the lake that you just landed by? Heh. Trust me. you bet your sweet bippy you are
Well said, friend! This series of "broken" videos was started with the intention to show people that any class can be broken and that the relative power of each shouldn't dissuade you from doing what you want!
A 3.5 Monk I played, with feats in Grapple, Disarm and Trip. Martial Arts meant a Monk is always considered armed. Disarming an opponent would then allow an Opportunity Attack (OA). Getting up from prone, OA. If an opponent was grappled, disarmed and prone. There was little chance of getting out alive. Great against spell casters too.
The level 20 ability is actually a great ability if you are rolling initiative at the beginning of every combat encounter, which is suggested in the DMG as a way to keep combat from being too predictable. The ability only say “when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining,” it doesn’t say that it has to be at the beginning of the combat encounter.
That is a good point but I wonder how often you would roll for initiative if not at the beginning of an encounter? Still, for a lvl 20 ability, I feel like it could grant you more thank just 4 ki points-especially since you’d get them ALL back on a short rest anyway.
It feels like monks are starved for Ki points in the early game. I think monk should receive additional Ki based on their wisdom modifier. Early level monks would have more Ki points to use, thereby increasing utility. Their capstone ability is just a let down. Any suggestions on what that revise ability should be?
I think the one thing that's keeping the Monk from being able to keep up with other martial classes in the game is the issue with unarmed strikes itself: very little customization options. So if anything else, it's not that monks are necessarily weak, it's just the fact that they are only weak by association with the least realized aspect of 5e's combat. Hell, in Pathfinder you can use Sneak Attack on unarmed strikes in certain cases. I think Wizards got so worried of making unarmed strikes overpowered that they made it useless.
I think what you’re saying makes a lot of sense. My favorite advice for this has been to take fighting initiate for the unarmed fighting style or a couple levels in fighter for that and action surge. It goes a looooong way haha
@@ConstructedChaos I don't really think that's enough imo. Wizards seem so scared to treat unarmed strikes as weapons that they don't realize it's the one thing that'll probably make it as viable as anything else. Take Pathfinder 1st Edition. Unarmed strikes are considered light one handed weapons AND natural weapons. Just doing that alone changes a lot. Maybe even make them finesse for monks, that kind of stuff. Why not let monks use Sneak Attack on unarmed strikes? Now they can be Batman! Why not smite with your fists? You can play out your DBZ fantasies if spec'd into properly! It would literally put them on par with other weapons rather than overshadow it. It's so baffling.
@@couver73 I mean, sure haha. I’m just giving you a solution within RAW. It would make a lot of sense for monks to just get a feature that classified their unarmed strikes as a different weapon type that qualified it for a lot of the other stuff. Not a bad idea for homebrew!
@@ConstructedChaos Your videos are great quality, and I love the way you describe character details. I strongly disagree with you stand on monks though. RAW they're weak compared to other martials. Most of their features pull from the same resource pool that they don't have enough of at low levels, some that other classes get for free (ie Dash). When the suggested fix is to MC to get X feat from other class, that kind say its not strong by its self. I'm not saying Monk are awful but when they can't be the best at anything you try to build for. Treantmonk has a video explaining in detail what I'm talking about.
Bro, I dont know... Fun? Yes. Thematic? For sure. But broken? In the context of other classes the monk is honestly a little under powered. It's damage is weirdly held back compared to other classes, especially since the fighter got the unarmed style in tashas. Stunning strike is great, but my expirience playing a few monks is that the save can really screw either the attacker or defender depending on the dice. Spending your last ki and theyake the save.... doesn't feel good.
For sure, your point has been made several times on this video already. But, when dealing in action economy, I think that stunning strike is one of the most potent battlefield control abilities in 5E. As far as ki points as an expendable resource, I think it depends on the type of campaign you’re in. In most campaigns I’ve run and played in, there have only been a few combat encounters at most between long rests-much less short rests!
@@ConstructedChaos Hey, you know what tho? I saw this video and hadn't seen your channel before and didn't realize you did multiple "x is broken" videos. And to be fair to monk, it only seems underpowered imo because it's a teamwork heavy class. The barbarian, paladin or fighter can enter the arena to fight alone but the monk functions best with a friend or 2 to act as sort of a support melee character. Probably my favorite class up to level 12 or so
@@bradbradfordson9158 exactly!! I think you can see what I’m doing here haha! Trying to figure out what I’ll cover next but I’ll probably start working on a Ranger is Broken video next week!
@@ConstructedChaos I would say the only two classes in the game that are explicitly NOT broken are Monk and Ranger barring perhaps the glory that is Gloomstalker lmfao
@@apollosungod6673 You can see my other comments regarding the monk but I actually think that Ranger is much better than you give it credit for here too. Swarmkeeper, Beast Master, and Hunter are all very strong choices mechanically and I think the other options can stand on their own just fine too!
Haha I've only gotten to play one a couple of times but I really enjoyed it! I always try to do something unconventional like a Voodoo-inspired Monk I'll be making a video on for next week! :D
After playing a monk for 4 months, I have found the experience rather underwhelming, as the best parts of playing one are mostly not in combat. Movement speed is nice, but when you are the only one that can do it, and your team doesn't scout things first, it doesn't have much purpose. Stunning strike pisses me off, because people talk about it like is a broken ability. Dope, I can shut down potentially 4 enemies on my turn... if I hit them with a melee attack... and they fail a con save... based on my wis mod and not dex... assuming the enemy is either unlucky, or has low con, which is unlikely. So assuming best conditions, you burn all of your ki in 2 turns, and then are a mediocre fighter. It wouldn't be that bad if only you weren't barred from the highest damage martial options, like GWF and Sharpshooter.
Sorry to hear you had a rough time with your monk build! I’ve played as a monk and DM’d for monks plenty of times with more desirable results! What did that build end up looking like? What would you say held the build back outside of stunning strike not working every time you used it?
@@ConstructedChaos I'm currently running a Dhampir Mercy Monk, because I liked the concept of mobile blood bank. My first major disappointment was that Stunning strike comes at lvl 5, despite being the most well spoken thing about monks. I only noticed when we started at lvl 3, and stayed at 3 for a month or so. I think it shows up a little late. That coupled with you being unable to stun with ranged attacks has kinda cripple me in some combats. Next was deflect missiles, which, while thematically cool, doesn't scale well, and is so situational, it doesnt come up. I'm currently 7th lvl, and haven't had a chance to use it. When there were archers, they weren't attacking me, and every other combat was with either melee, or magic. Sure, it might be crazy if I could return a guiding bolt, but I think I should at least get something like the riposte maneuver from battlemaster. I would argue monks should all have either Battlemaster or Open hand stuff by default. The damage is lacking, as you can't use 2 handed weapons, and dont get fighting styles, and ranged weapons dont synergies with anything you can do. Unarmed damage is bad until 11th lvl, by then, fighters and some cantrips out dps you entirely. I'm not a fan of monks being kinda MAD, requiring both high dex, and wis, but you can't ignore con.
@@Cosmic_K13 honestly, all your complaints here are very valid. I think the monk does tend to play best in levels 5-10 after stunning strike comes online, though. Your way of mercy stuff should go a decent way as well. Deflect missiles has the unfortunate designation of a reactionary ability so I find sometimes it doesn’t come up because you’re either so close to the enemy that they don’t want to shoot you or the DM has other targets in mind. In your case it sounds like the combats just aren’t built well for it-and that can happen with a lot of builds. That said, if you’re not liking your damage output, I’d consider taking fighting initiate for unarmed fighting style or maybe even a level in fighter-though I agree that this option should be part of the monk RAW. Would be great if that was there in place of deflect missiles, honestly!
I played a Way of Mercy monk up to level 10, compared to the other classes I felt underpowered, especially in the damage category. And since 5e doesn’t let you “downgrade” actions, like dropping a move action to do two bonus actions, I never felt I got to do everything I actually wanted. The stunning strike is cool, but any monster worth stunning, usually have enough con save to not be affected. THAT SAID, the Healing hand ability is one of the few healing abilities in game that doesn’t have the limitation that it doesn’t work on undead or constructs, so the fact that we had a dampir in the party actually made my character somewhat vital.
Dhampir arent undead though? Even in UA they were undead+humanoid and the same ua said that if something works on one of your types it works on you, so normal healing spells would work on UAdhampir
@@The_Yukki I don’t know where he found that dampir, he at least claimed it counted as undead in regards to healing, point still stands though, Hand of Mercy can heal things that most spells can’t
In my opinion, Way of the Kensei monk is probably the most useful, yet unfortunately subpar compared to other martials. The monk desperately needs a way to regain Ki points, and the only enemies worthy of spending Ki points to try to stun are the ones that are most likely to succeed on them. I usually change these to try and make the gameplay more fluid - spending up to 2 hit die as a bonus action to "take a moment" and regain Ki points, as well as having the Stunning Strike now impose disadvantage on the next attempt if the current one fails to stun. I also want to touch on the class features. They are really not that well put together. The slight movement speed increase at those high levels is absurd, barely any defensive options, and a horrible level 20 feature. WotC really thought they had something going on with this class, but they really screwed up.
I think way of the open hand, way of mercy, and way of shadow do pretty well also but I agree that a fix for the base monk lies somewhere in regaining ki or just having more of it. That said, stunning strike only needs to work once! Perhaps even a build with the new metallic Dragonborn’s enervating breath could be fun to play with… And I’ve started taking a couple levels in fighter for action surge and unarmed fighting style instead of the capstone on a lot of builds. It works out pretty well!
@@ConstructedChaos you mentioned that you could potentially make a battle are a dedicated monk weapon. There are Oriental versions of weapons that I always like to give monks,. It's not a long sword, it's a katana. It's not a sickle, it's a kama, it's not a dagger, it's a tanto. Guess it's just flavor, but I remember a blade on a stick, which is your basic battle axe.
While I won't argue that Monk is anywhere near perfect. I think a big problem we run into is that Monks are one of the many classes built around longer days with more short rests and back to back encounters. Which is what most class abilities are balanced around. But many people play with significantly less encounters in a day. Which slants the balance towards classes and builds that can "nova" their way through single encounters. In other words, (most) fullcasters and specific nova builds are favored. Leaving Warlock and the rest in the cold. So I fear a lot of this "imbalance" mentioned by the community is mostly self-inflicted. Similar to DM's stressing about the nat 20 skill check homebrew derailing sessions.
I think you’re probably on to something here. I’m certainly guilty of only running a few combats per long rest at the most. My games are very RP/Skill Challenge heavy.
Totally! The point has been raised, discussed, and even “math’d” to death in other comment threads. I still stand by the fact that stunning strike is pretty likely to stick when you want it to.
Currently playing a Sun Soul Monk. Background was raised by a cult to a red dragon. Escaped the cult and is obsessed with becoming stronger so he can wipe out the cult.
@@ConstructedChaos definitely not the most powerful. (My dm loves power builds) but he is an almost innocent stranger to the world and he is so fun to RP.
@@michaelj.mccall6530 I completely agree and I think having fun is the most important part of play! Our table has a big emphasis on story and RP. Some of my players prefer making power builds but they know that I'll help to level the playing field with other players by introducing new mechanics, items, scenarios, etc.
A small note: Way of the Drunken Master refers to a form of material arts where you ***appear*** to be heavily intoxicated, which is why the subclass gets performance as a free skill. The whole deal is that you trick opponents to underestimate your skills and strike unpredictably with surprising force and odd angles at times. In DnD, it can be flavored in a way that the monk’s fluid movements allow them to weave around combat and lash out in an unpredictable manner or go with a drunkard, though that is a flavor for this subclass that I don’t particularly enjoy Note that what I said is a heavily summarized explanation from someone who isn’t a martial artist and doesn’t actively study martial arts, though I find it fascinating enough to remember small tidbits here and there
Fair enough! Sorry-the extent of my martial arts knowledge begins and ends from shows like Naruto 😂 Still, that’s very interesting! I’m sure you could play the flavor either way but I really like that it doesn’t pigeonhole you into just doing that one thing.
My Drunken Master monk took a level in Bard so he could accurately portray being not only drunk, but a drunken bard to add a whole level of subterfuge.
Currently playing as a Drunken Master at 6th level. I feel as though I’m not playing to it’s full potential and I have a very strict DM (but I feel as thought he himself doesn’t really know how the monk work…..). I’m either completely useless in a fight or I excel in roleplay with drunken shenanigans. Ah I’ve almost died “thrice”. So usually I’m hesitant on how my monk really works on the number of attacks I have: I find it mildly confusing. And because Im a tiefling monk I get free of charge thaumaturgy, hellish rebuke and darkness. So I have spellcasting ability and spell save 14 and +6 on spell attack bonus. I’ve so shitty rolls when it comes to my attacks (when I roll d20) if I wanna use ki-point and do flurry of blows and I feel as though when it comes to my reactions they always always fail…(cause if I become hit I should be able to use hellish rebuke or if I’m grabbed) I’m just always hit and I get no chances to use reactions (cause you were talking about that the monk is like running the game) well I feel veeeeeery useless….. just a comic relief. I don’t want my monk to die cause I made a really cool backstory. I just want to land a hit (I’ve played 12 sessions and not one of them I’ve done anything that I could say I’m proud of…. I feel like I don’t get to play my monk because of either situation or my DM doesn’t really wanna put in the effort of my monk.
I do find that they typically benefit the most from boons like this with support party members! Ask your artificer friend for winged boots and go to town! 😜
@@ConstructedChaos they definitely don't benefit the most lol. When your attacks are by nature weaker in damage than others, making them more reliable to hit isn't gonna be better than making those others more reliable
@@torunsmok5890 it’s an important distinction between the monk benefitting the most and the party benefitting the most. What I’m saying here is that the monk gets the “most improved” award, basically. I thought you’d actually agree with that take haha.
Monk would be better if level 20 got your martial arts die a d12 and if the cap stone was if you start your turn with less than 5 no points you gain 2.
I would change it to: - add your wistom and dexterity modifire for attack and dmg if you attack unarmed if your kensei this bonus also counts on each chosen weapon. - your non damaging actions and conditioneffects on enermies cost 1ki less (so it helps also astral monk). - you can paralyse ones per day a creature with your stunningstrike without a savecheck and ignoring immunities but it also cost 3 extra ki. - your ac improves by your proficiancy once per short rest for a minute as long you wear no armor and arent polymorphed. (If you want you can add ki to the cost, but immo the monk is allready overloades) - you can spend 6 ki (5 cause of the reduction) to gain haste for an hour. As long you have this effect you can react without limits, but only one per action forcing a reaction. But then this would only fix the monk on lvl 20 xD
Nah, a d12 martial arts die is shit tier at level 20 when everyone else is rocking +2-3 weapons. 1d12 is available for fighters and barbarians and others at level 1...why do monks have to get the shit end of the stick in nearly every feature they get?
@@ConstructedChaos no, I realize it's a valid rogue subclass, but I would like to see the same class for monks. I've seen 5e content for Way of the Soulknife but it's not official content. Monks are cool. They don't do the most damage but they are cool?
@@ConstructedChaos there was a UA soulknife that was a monk subclass. then when they actually did a soul knife in official content, they turned it into a rogue subclass.
@@timkramar9729 I see! And yes, monks are very cool! They're best utilized as battlefield controllers and supporters to some extent--it's not necessarily all about their damage output!
I don't see how so many people see monks as dangerous to their game balance. Yes, you can Stun - and that's great! But at level 5, with 5 Ki points, you can blow through all those points SO FAST! Also, Constitution saves are, in general, some of the highest saves in the game. You can totally run out of Ki while trying to stun down a person. So, much so, the Party holds back while I try to stun. That is their idea of depletion of legendary resistances before they try their spells. Also, Shadow and 4 Elements monks have such BAD costs for their Ki, it's tragic. They should have been given spell slots.
And at 30mins of a short rest you get it all back!! I don’t see monks as dangerous to the game’s balance. After all, as pointed out in other comments, I plan to make videos like this for every class! But let me also paint you this scenario: A level 5 party faces off against an Ettin with a pet owlbear. The ettin fails his con save twice in 3 attempts while the rest of the party solos the owlbear. Then, the ettin lands a single attack before being beat down by a monk with no ki points and the other party members. True story haha.
@@ConstructedChaos sounds like you had some very bad saves or a divination wizard or star druid or something was manipulating some saving throws against you. An Ettin has to have a really high con- isn't it classed as a giant?
Hahaha truly just some terrible rolls. Ettins have only +3 to con saves but they do have advantage against being stunned. Still, being able to steal action economy away from creatures is very very powerful in 5e. And everything is bound to fail eventually.
@@ConstructedChaos Terrible rolls happen but for every round I've heard where the Monk pulled out a clinch win, I've actually seen two where they burned a bunch of Ki and got nothing for the effort.
Vecna: "You cannot win, you lack the power to defeat me...." Paladin: "I don't, but she does." **lvl 20 sun soul monk looming ominously over Vecnas shoulder**
Just so you know, I wholeheartedly agree with the 20th level capstone ability shortchanging the monk class!! I think that they should get at least 10 ki points back so that, at least, they'll have a fighting chance to finish off the final boss!! Thoughts?
Worth noting that Stillness of Mind doesn't actually work some of the time, because several effects that make you charmed of frightened also force you to use your action (meaning no using your action, since it's already been used) or just incapacitate you (meaning you can't take actions). This can be a bit of a bummer... especially since some paladins get AoE immunity at the same level. Were I to redesign it I'd probably make monks immune to charmed and frightened instead, and maybe rename it to Iron Will, or something like tha, and let them use Ki to end a charm or frightened effect on an ally instead. Slap some sense into your ally; let them make a new save and add your martial arts die to the roll. Seems more fun to me, as it expands the role of the monk within the party.
I feel like they didn’t really know where to go with the monk class, but multiclassing a monk can be ridiculous, like the shadow monk/ rogue assassin multiclass is pretty sweet. You only really need that 3 level dip into rogue, and the rest is straight shadow monk from there. The ability to turn invisible and it not burn a ki point is nice, immunity to poison and diseases that aren’t curses, deflect missile, stunning fist, ki points coming back after a short rest, gaining another ki point every level, shadow step, slow fall, negate fall damage, flurry of blows, it’s a lot to play with in my opinion. Mixing the wood elf’s extra mobility with the mobile feat, and adding shadow step is ridiculous. I managed to stunning fist an assassin that was attempting to flee by using all 60ft of my movement, and then shadow stepping another 60ft. It’s a character you play if you want to play someone that can be an all arounder.
Monks do certainly lack a little bit of identity with 5e but largely ended up as a sortof skirmishing battlefield controller. Honestly, I'm really excited by the improvements they've proposed for the next edition!
Currently playing a way of the shadow monk. I actually find her a lot of fun because I'm also playing shadar kai. With the mobility feat she becomes formidable in fighting. I teleport using blessing of the raven queen which gives me resistance to all damage for a whole turn, then use stunning strike, and gain advantage on all of my attacks. Really wail on the enemy.
Nice!! Shadow monks can definitely be among the most powerful if you can take advantage of darkness. But, even that aside, this character sounds extremely formidable!
the difficulty with unarmored defense, and this goes for barbarians too, is that the AC stays static as you level , meaning these two classes will be hogging the rings and cloaks of protection for the party
The difference being that not only does barbarian unarmored defense allow shields, it also works off con, meaning a barbarian can put points/good stat rolls into con without jeopardizing their other stats while monk can’t. This, combined with their hit die being a d12, while monk is stuck with a d8 for some reason, leads to it not being as big a concern for barbarians.
If you want to move around a lot while not being able to evade massive hits, absorb or cure hits, deal comparable damage as other characters, or do something useful without running out of ki points and other resources, yes, choose to play a monk. Yes, you can survive a fall from a great height, but how can you help your comrades win the combat?
I think the monk has issues with scaling, at least in combat. Levels 1-5 they’re pretty decent at contributing to DPR by being a skirmisher. Their damage at these levels is actually respectable. The damage doesn’t scale well enough after level 5. There’s a transition that happens after this where the monk usually becomes more valuable as a support character. There is a problem with as the change is counter to everything a player has learned how to play from levels 1-5. Much like the hex spell can sometimes hold back a warlocks strength as they get stronger.
I couldn’t agree more but I might also add that a monk gaining wisdom and relying less on combat in later levels is pretty on-brand in terms of flavor! Still it would be nice to see something better than timeless body at 15th level. I think that alone would solve a lot of issues.
Too many people saying that they aren't great tanks, or great DPS, or great...blah blah blah... All are forgetting that this is not a combat only game.
That is a very easy thing to forget! High dexterity and wisdom can make the monk a pretty great asset in other areas just on its own merit. That said, I would love to see the monk get a better hit die at some point. I don't think it's 100% necessary but it would make sense.
I just made a character for a new game--the DM has a homebrew feat for variant humans that must be taken at 1st level that allows variant humans who take the feat to be natural born lycanthropes. I just built a level 2 Weretiger Monk. This is my first time playing a monk and the first time playing a weretiger, so this will be an interesting campaign. I took investigation proficiency from being variant human, history and arcana proficiencies from my background, and acrobatics and athletics from my monk class. My backstory is I was a academic who has written several books on the history of the continent and serves as a librarian at a university. He's taking a sabbatical to join an adventuring party after some monks visited the library, as those monks inspired my character to train his body as well as his mind.
Fastest way to fix monk? Remove ki cost to flurry of blows. That’s pretty much it, they’ll get a minimal damage boost, more points to use for their subclass abilities, and they can use their action to use the other monk abilities if they need to. Oh, and give the four elements monk incremental access to mold earth, gust, shape water, and control flames.
I feel like Wizards of the Coast is afraid of giving the monk some really good subclasses. Most of the subclasses feel underwhelming, especially with late game abilities. About the only three that seem useable are Open hand, Shadow and Kensei for ranged attacks. Way of the dragon at late game grants the monk 10 ft blindsight at 17th level. A fighter can get that at 1st, and a paladin or ranger at 2nd. That being said, Monk is certainly fun to play. I currently play a Harengon lv 6 Open Hand Monk with one level of Twilight Cleric to make my already speedy bnuuy even speedier on initiative. It makes him able to see in the dark, along with giving him two spell castings (Usually spent Bless, Armor of Faith or an emergency Healing Word) and a few cantrips. And with the Crusher Feat on him, I've been able to devastate enemies by robbing them of their reactions, knocking them prone, knocking them back with Crusher with no save and granting advantage on all attacks against them if my bunny crits, and I can use Bunny Hop in place of Step of the Wind to disengage and save my ki points for flurry of blows.
Just on Unarmored Defense and RPing, all character's AC benefit from their Dexterity (depending on what armor they decide to wear). The real difference is the monk's Wisdom makes them harder to hit. That's important to consider when RPing your monk. It's basically heighted 'combat awareness'...They're just as 'nimble' as the rogue.
Playing a monk… I could just punch this orc off this ledge, but with Slow Fall, it’s just so much more fun to jump off with them and body slam them, taking 0 damage haha. It gets even better when you can run up walls! Grapple + running up walls + Slow Fall = WWE
Most people only consider damage in the equation of useless or not useless. Your thoughts are fine. As a gm/dm, every time a player has played a monk they've loved it, except for one guy who was wanting to be the most damaging class he could be.
So, what else are you consider in the equation? Monks are mediocre-to-bad at everything, except maybe mobility (and they can't use this mobility because no damage). Flavor is the only thing that they have. Is it wrong to wish for mechanically good (or at least not bad) class?
@@notsochosenone5669 not all encounters are combat-based. Stunning strike is an extremely powerful tool even in the late game and the ability to speak and understand all languages, remove reliance on sustenance, etc is pretty broken in its own right depending on the campaign.
@@notsochosenone5669 but, no. It definitely isn’t wrong to want more out of the class in terms of DPS. I totally get that. I just don’t think that’s the intended use. Monk looks like more of a battlefield controller with fairly resilient stats and abilities for staying alive.
@@ConstructedChaos Stunning strike is works like 30% of the time (and this is without 65% chance to hit in the first place). So this unreliable joke of battlefield control is just bad if DM don't fudge rolls or something. Why praying for random if you can play druid and be actually good at support and battlefield control? Stay alive with what? d8 hit die and joke of AC? When i choose monk i want to be Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan-like fast punching stunt machine, but i can do neither - samurai fighter can make like 10 strikes - monk can make only 4, and even something as basic as jump is impossible because Wotc forget to make jumps DEX-dependent for monks. Ironically enough, only Tortle STR monks can be good at jumps and at least semi-effective at the same time.
I've played a Monk in every edition since 1st ed. Oriental Adventures, including the Monk Kit in The Complete Guide to Clerics in 2nd ed. After missing the 3rd ed. train, I haven't brought myself to suffering through another Monk build. I found it better to choose classes which haven't received much attention in awhile, like the Bard. That said, as a DM the only monks that I have see be "competitive" in my optimizer groups are ones who are able to roll high starting stats. Point buy does not seem to do this MAD class any favors. As a martial artist IRL I have always loved the archetype, but it still seems to miss the mark. In previous editions the Monk received the greatest access to proficiencies (or skills), as all proficiencies were universally accessible to them. I would have loved to have seen that aspect of the monks explored more mechanically; perhaps they should've been given the extra feat given to fighters to represent this specialized access to training.
If I was into min maxing (I'm not) I would do 15 in DEX, CON, and WIS, with 8 in the others. If I was interested in DPR, I would have played a fighter.
GREAT video! Terrible title though lol The fact is that yes, the monk is broken, but not in a good way. They have resource management problems and are cursed by having to manage THREE stats and choosing which to max, basically nuking their feat selections.
not just resource problems but their most popular ability doesn't work 2/3 of the time. none of their other abilities are quite impactful numbers wise. the whole unarmed fighting style just does bad dmg. they don't lend themselves to multiclassing (where the resource problems become more of an issue). and they can't wear armor. they are mediocre or bad at everything. they can't do anything better than any other class.
Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the feedback! I've gone into more detail on my position in other comments but I would definitely love to see Monk get a boost with One D&D being tested now. Moreover, this video series is about the potential for each class to be broken. It's my effort to alleviate some of the exaggerated hate that certain classes get.
One thing I would give Monks as part of their Martial Arts ability is that they can choose to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing damage depending on the way they strike their target with their hands. A closed fist is Bludgeoning, delivering a karate chop is Slashing, and quick jabbing with your finger tips is Piercing. Yes you aren't actually cutting or piercing into the body of your target, well maybe unless you deal a Critical Kill Blow, but the impact of the motion and your Monk training allows you to deliver blows that imitate those other damage types.
That would certainly be an interesting change! But, as I so often take a fighter multiclass dip on my monks now for the unarmed fighting style, I would love to see that added into the base class as well!
All I'll say is. In the D&DBeyond description included in the video for Stunning Strike, it clearly specifies that the Stunning Strike can be used when "you hit another creature with a melee WEAPON attack", which I don't think falls under the category of an unarmoured strike. I'm currently playing a Monk in a campaign and I follow this rule, and let's just say...my Monk has almost died 3 times XD so it is no longer a broken ability if you take this detail into consideration
Unarmed strike does qualify for melee weapon attack according to the official Sage Advice Compendium. I think the exact quote from it states: “For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.” So make sure your DM is aware of this so you can get your ability back! 😊
There's some confusing technicalities there. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack" but not an "attack with a melee weapon", but it's the former that Stunning Strike requires, so you can absolutely stun with unarmed strikes.
I don’t really see the gripes about Monks seeing as no one really plays them by the core books anyway. But then again, neither does anyone for any of the other classes. The Class has minor issues that are fixed easily enough before the game starts. The secret is understanding that the Core Rules REALLY ARE JUST GUIDELINES.
I don't like the core Monk class so, as a result, I don't like most of the subclasses. I don't like the fact that virtually everything you do burns Ki. I don't care about the Short rest...I base my mental image of a Monk on any of a number of Kung Fu movies we all saw growing up. I can't remember a single one where a fighter stopped dodging because he was out of Ki points. No other martial class works with this sort of resource unless you want to count the Battlemaster Fighter and even then they're getting a lot more for one of their Maneuver dice than an additional 1D4 damage. IMHO the core Monk class needs work in order to make it less Ki-dependant.
I think the argument can be made to either strengthen the existing mechanics or to overhaul it but I can see your qualms with the class. That said, I can’t think of any movies where a mage ran out of “spell slots” either or where a bard ran out of “inspiration” haha. Maybe hold out hope that monk gets a rework in whatever new edition WOTC just announced they’re working on for 2024.
Great choice of music and b-roll. Your voice is soothing and kinda interesting! One suggestion tough... that awesome music on some parts is too loud and kind of distracting. Gerald Undone has good video on making your voice POP over music. Cool video bro, you got yourself a sub! :)
Thanks so much for the suggestions!! My newer videos should have some improvements to audio but I’ll check out that other video you suggested as well! I’m sure I’ll always have more to learn!
It would be cool if you use a halfling monks using the way of the shadow..That would be sweet just to see how they turn out? It was a thought take care..
I like that! Maybe I'll try one out in a future build video if I can finish these last few class guides before the next iteration of DND comes out haha.
Jokes aside, Monk is actually decent outside of a few small tweaks that can make the Monk better. First, increase the die size by one at each level; as it stands, races with natural weapons can do a d6 in damage and the unarmed fighting style provides a d8 while mot holding weapons or a shield, so I don't think a d12 at high tire play or a d6 at level 1 is too strong. Second, Fighters and Barbarians can get up to an extra 6 AC from wearing magic armor and shields, so let Monks add their proficiency bonus to their AC. As a means of satisfying the desire for more Ki, I have seen the suggestion of adding a Monk's Wisdom modifier to their ki point pool, which seems fair to me as that may be at least 5 ki points at level 2 and 7 ki points at most. Another suggested change was to remove the ki cost of Step of the Wind, and a change I thought of would be to allow the Monk to recover 1 ki point if they miss a bonus action attack or if a target success on a saving throw against a Monk's feature.
@ConstructedChaos Outside of the damage die for unarmed attacks, the nerf to Stunning Strike, the one super short rest, and the nerf(?) to Empowered Strikes, Monk is largely unchanged. Compared to what the Wizard and Sorcerer got, the charges seem less than mediocre.
@@Andrew_the_Worthy_Shield when I say they’re on the right track and not there yet, I mean I like the way they’re thinking. Giving the monk a free short rest instead of just pumping ki is a cool idea-but I think it should come online much much earlier. It would improve monk survivability in leu of a bigger hit die or better AC. Another example can be found in their improvement of deflect missile. The problem there is that it should be rolled up into the same feature and also be made to include melee attacks against them-further improving survivability. Those two changes alone would see the monk bolstered fairly well. I plan to mention as much in my feedback.
While this will always depend on the campaign you’re in and what features would be most useful to you and your party, I’d say that way of mercy might be the best pick at that level purely based off of extra damage and the ability to provide some healing if needed. I actually have a whole video on Way of Mercy Monks if you haven’t seen it already!
So i love monks, they are my absolute favorite class. However from my 1st time playing to my 50th, i came to realize Monks juet cant keep up with the other classes im much of anything, The only things they had going for them was the Movement Speed and Stunning Strike. While stunning strike still stands, things like Elk Totem Barbarians catch up and sometimes excel in movement speed. After DMing for a little bit as well the people who end up playing monks always seem to have less fin because they simply get out shined by either a Barbarian, Druid, or Fighter. So eventually i started giving Monks small features and buffs of my own and so far people seem to enjoy monks more. Monks still dont get broken like other classes with this but its made them more enjoyable. How i run monks is thanks to my addition to their martial arts feature, at level 1 a monk can throw 3 unarmed strikes in one turn. If they use an unarmed strike as an action that can throw 2 instead of just 1. So at level 5, they can pull this off. Action - 2 unarmed Strikes Extra Attack - 2 Unarmed Strikes Bonus Action - 1 Unarmed Strike Or Bonus Action - Flurry of Blows - 2 Unarmed Strikes. Making a Possible Minimum of 5 unarmed strikes, maximum of 6 This can get to be a lot if they get haste cast on them a lot, but it still just keeps them up with things like the Barbarian, since monks can't tank very well, i figured they should at least deal a little more damage. My justification for this is Martial Artists are typically faster when atracking than say an average street brawler or bandit.
I think that sounds like a decent enough solution to your issue but I think it might be easier to just give monks a better martial arts die (to increase damage) and more ki points (so they can do their cool stuff more often). Either way, I get what you're looking to do here and it seems like a cool idea!
I’m just gonna say Kensei with a blowgun! Up to 1d10 + 1d4 + DEX without poison! Sure it’s not optimal (monks sadly aren’t ever) but it’s one hell of a surprise
I've played a aasimar Way of the Open Hand monk for several years now and while I can't speak for others at no time did Jugs ever seem underpowered compared to the other PCs, who BTW were a banneret Fighter,Forge cleric, Moon Druid,Oath of Vengeance Paladin and a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer. Maybe I was just lucky but that's been my experience.
This has been my experience as well with the Monk. People don't give enough credit to the class at common tiers of play and the disparity between relative power levels of each class is a lot smaller than people seem to think.
Hey Chaos. Coming back to this vid to share my 1st optimized monk build. Had a friend who challenged me to create an optimized monk for his next campaign as he wants to see what i could do with it as he hears me crap on the monk alot. in fact, alot would be an understatement. He said it had to be a "monk", meaning monk should have the most class levels and shouldn't be using weapons or spells as its core tactic. So no gunks. He also said i can't use what are considered the best monk subclasses in shadow, kensei and mercy nor rely on any magic items. He also said that if it's a striker, it should typically pass the baselines i set for my striker builds (like a burst striker should at least burst for 80+ dmg at level 10 to be considered viable). So i started looking at the popularly trashed monks and i settled on sun soul. Most people considered this or the 4E monk as the worst monk. I was attracted to the idea of making an evil ryu/akuma character who could launch a lot of hadoken. level 10 theorycraft as always: "SHINKU...HADOKEN" fighter 2, sun soul 5, gloomstalker 3 bugbear asi: +1 dex, +1 con (skill expert-dex is viable too) fighting style: superior technique (ambush), druidic warrior (guidance, control flames) dedicated weapon: shortbow key spells: goodberry, guidance role: burst striker/infiltrator tactics: pre-combat: use any leftover spell slots to cast goodberry then long rest. keep to the shadows/darkness while adventuring to maintain umbral sight, turning off flames from a distance via control flames. spam guidance for initiative. use ambush as necessary. 1st turn: if there's an area of darkness/dark shadow within 30 ft of your target, move within 30 ft action: radiant sun bolt x2 + shorbow x1 with advantage (use focused aim as needed) action surge: radiant sun bolt x2 + shortbow x1 with advantage (use favored foe) bonus action: radiant sun bolt x2 with advantage if there's no area of darkness/dark shadow within 30 ft of your target or low on ki, move to an area of darkness/dark shadow within 80 of your target bonus action: hunter's mark action: shortbow x3 with advantage (use focused aim as needed) action surge: shortbow x3 with advantage reaction: absorb elements/deflect missiles as needed 2nd turn onwards: action: radiant sun bolt/shortbow x2 with advantage bonus action: ki-fueled attack/martial arts if applicable Turn 1 dmg report assuming radiant sun bolt is used: 6d6 (RSB) + 2d6 (SB) + 32 (dex) + 16d6 (bugbear) + 1d4 (FF) + 2d8 (DA)= 127.5 so wow. not only do we make my baseline, but a monk breaks the century mark by a comfortable margin at level 10. This almost one-shots an aboleth as mainly a monk on turn 1. I don't think it's quite often we see a monk do over 100 dmg in a turn while not using weapons even at high levels. my friend was happy with this. he also likes street fighter. so yeah, in the spirit of your "broken" video series, i agree that even classes or subclasses which are considered the worst by the community, there's potential to make them powerful and viable with the right build. Feel free to share your thoughts/ask questions. :)
@@ConstructedChaos not a fan either of sun souls or of monks but i wanted to help out a friend and challenge myself. haha. but yeah thought i'd share here in case people looking for effective monk builds are able to see it.
Group was being attacked by a Rok, I tried to cast blindness on it to make the fight easier, apparently the things WIS is pretty high, our Monk manages to stab it, hold on to the dagger, put a dart in its head, and cast Darkness on the dart effectively blinding it in like two moves!
As someone who is getting into his first session as of tomorrow, I am wondering is it possible to create a ninja type character with the Kensei subclass?
yes. but are you concerned with power and performance? just a word of warning ahead of time that the monk is the weakest class in the game. this concept is better done with other classes or at least multiclassing a monk. i do understand you're new though so multiclassing might be complicated for you now. i could theorycraft a "ninja" kensei for you if you want. the shadow monk is also another subclass you could do this with if you're interested in other monk subclasses.
@@TheRobversion1 I've looked at Way of the Shadow and honestly? I... don't like that interpretation of the ninja as I want to play something that doesn't really rely on casting even with Ki. I'm wanting to try and have a ninja that's more grounded, something that's closer to the Iga and Koga ninjas of Feudal Japan, even if Ki is still involved. I'd think that a Kensei ninja is possible if feats like Skulker, Stealthy, Poisoner, Actor and Performer are put into such a build.
@@TheRobversion1 It was recommended to me by my DM that I stick with one class and sub-class to better understand the mechanics of the game. I hear that monks are generally one of the weaker classes but I figure I might as well be the judge of that from my own personal experiences with it. I've looked into the Way of the Shadow monk and I personally don't like that one's interpretation for ninjas. It doesn't feel ninja to me, and seems to rely more on shadows and teleportation than something definitively ninja. I want to have something that's more grounded and closer to the historical ninjas of the Iga and Koga clans of Japan, rather than something that's built off a stereotypical pop-culture depiction of a ninja. So with that in mind, wouldn't it be possible to build a Ninja Kensei by giving the build the stealthy, skulker, poisoner, actor and performer feats?
@@RakaiThwei yes for someone new, it's better to start with a pure class to understand mechanics. one tip i'll give though is that don't let the traditional lore/flavor/text/theme of the class influence you in picking that class. anything in the game can be re-flavored. as you already suggested, picking certain options like feats can define the character more. you can make a ninja monk, ninja fighter, ninja ranger (in fact i'd say that a subclass here is the best at realizing the mechanics in my opinion), ninja rogue, ninja warlock, etc. the key is to look at all the classes/abilities and find which abilities allow you to execute your concept. so noted, you don't want something magical supported ninja but something that's more skil based/non-magical. are you only concerned about the stealth aspect of the ninja and poison? how about actual combat? why did you pick the actor feat? that doesn't feel "ninja-y" to me. heads up as well on poisoner. this is a bad feat because poison is the worst dmg type and condition in the game. many enemies are immune to poison dmg (which poisoner doesn't help with funnily) and the poisoned condition. there's no way to optimize anything poison related. i think best to describe here what you want the ninja to do in combat, during exploration (aside from stealthing around) and during social encounters.
@@TheRobversion1 Well right now, the idea is to more or less recreate something that's not the stereotypical pop-culture ninja but rather something more closer to the historical Iga and Koga clans of Japan but with something of an edge to it of course. So I was thinking maybe Kensei would work as it allows some use of the Ki based abilities and allows for use of weapons which ninjas, especially real life ninjas have to know how to use as it's part of their eighteen paths in being shinobi. Stealth is definitely something which needs to be played up, especially skulking as well because I don't feel like Kensei has this where as Way of the Shadow does, but to a much greatly exaggerated level (I do like the ability to move through Shadows, and I can flavor that to having the ninja moving at speeds in darkness to make it seem like they're teleporting-- see Raizo vs Ozunu from Ninja Assassin to see what I mean). But I don't particularly like the use of Ki to cast darkness, dark vision, silence, etc.... To me that just... doesn't make sense. So, stealth is factor and I figure I can cover that with Stealthy from Unearthed Arcana and Skulker from Players Handbook... So there we go for covering stealth. No problem. As for the actor feat, there's a reason for that. Historical ninjas DID NOT wear black and run around in the shadows, they hid in plain sight. They were either disguised as merchants, farmers, entertainers, courtesans, guards, and in the case of Kunoichi (female ninjas), they went in as either Geisha or Oiran to get close to their targets or to acquire information. So actor and performer feats would be used for infiltration if the situation comes to it.
Just did my stat rolls and race everything for level 1 monk hareagon 14 str, 20 dex, 18 con, 15 int, 18 wis and cha 17 haven't played in along time and he told me for now on I need to roll 50 times before the campaign lmao
I am going to use... Oh that's right, I can't because I'm out of KI... Used my last point for simply breathing because monk's can't do ANYTHING without expending KI...
Counter point: they are not and all their subclasses are surpassed by most mid to top subclasses of the other classes. They only appear broken in one on one combat. And usually only if they get to go first.
Monk level 1-4, fantastic striker monk level 5 to 13, bad at everything. But with a potentially busted stunning strike technique. Monk level 14 to 17, decent tank, harasser with stunning strike pressure. Monk level 18 to 20, Busted tank you can't run from who will slowly pummel you to death So with that said. Just go play a fucking rogue.
Hahaha nice. I do think that’s a decent assessment and rogue is pretty busted a lot of the time. But monk is totally viable and fun to play too! Characters don’t always need to be min/max combat damage dealers-at least that’s my philosophy!
I am wanting to play a tabaxi assassin that considers themselves as the god of life and death (nothing dies unless they allow it). I know that monk is going to be a main branch of focus but I am unsure whether I want to go path of life or path of shadows. I know I want them to be able to heal but I also want some kind of teleportation. The shadow walk will suffice for teleportation but that is mainly why I would go that way. What path would you recommend, and if path of life how would one suggest I gain teleportation
Honestly, when reading your presentation of this idea, I thought mercy monk would fit this pretty perfectly! You could always take a feat like fey touched for misty step or something similar. There are even late-game monk abilities that allow you to become invisible and you could even flavor that as a type of teleportation?
Agreed with chaos here. i'd go mercy monk if that's your concept and just use a feat/multiclassing to gain teleportation should you want it. monks though are one of the classes that needs teleportation the least due to their increased movement and ability to disengage easily. you may want to consider multiclassing into a class that allows you to cast revivify to support your concept.
The 4 element monk sucks, the elemental bender NPC should be a base. As a DM I hate stunning strike, but it just means I need to be more thoughtful on my encounters. Flyby, swarms, etc. It isn’t cheap just think.
I can definitely agree with you on 4 elements. The abilities are just way too expensive when you compare it with other “spellcasters”. As for building encounters around stunning strike, I’ll do this occasionally but doing it every time isn’t going to be fair to your player. Stunning strike should have a chance to go off.
What about chaos alignment monk? I wanna be a Barb/monk that is just a really good brawler. No technique, just going up to mercilessly beat opponents down, always searching for a stronger opponent; always searching for the next joyous combat.
That sounds like a lot of fun-especially since both monk and barbarian tend to be a bit front loaded classes. As far as monk subclass, way of the open hand or way of the drunken master might be good picks for that! Just keep in mind that Barb requires a Strength of 13 to multiclass and monk requires a 13 in dex and wisdom respectively! Once you’ve attained that, you could probably lean into your strength score for your attacks but your AC may suffer a bit too. Either way, don’t let that deter you! Once you’ve got it all figured out, it’ll be a good time to play with!
Way of the Mercy can contribute to teammates well and Shadow Monk, if you can haggle DM for either Blind Sight or Devil Sight, it might work. The others.... I have right to remain silent. Just one more thing: Magical Armor and Shield definately happens and Monks cannot enjoy most of them. I still can see this video is well pit together.
In our main campaign our dm had a thing that granted us a minor wish at level 3. I was a shadow monk and was the one that got to make the wish as I rolled very well on an insight check. I talked to the dm and got our group "the eyes of my ansestors" (I'm a tiefling). He gave us devils sight but limited (think it was halved until level 6 or so) and I think thats fair because one or two members having low level devils sight it fine, a party needs nurffed, especially when we have 3 out of 7 characters that can cast darkness and I have a dart enchanted with darkness spell so 4 darkness spells in total. All having advantage in darkness and whatnot gets pretty broken.
@@jamessberna1330 That's a cool implementation of a party buff! I'd love to know more about the context that allowed that to happen within the story of the campaign! Thanks for sharing!
@@ConstructedChaos basically we were all "chosen by gods" and magic crystals teleported us to an air-ship/city that was ran by a god of time. We had some down time to explore the area and the dm put one of those old gypsy in a box fortune teller things (he said he got the idea from critical roll I believe) in the way of our rogue but he kept rolling low on any kind of check to see what it was about. It seemed to show up around every turn and was annoying him. He got to roll history, insight, investigation, arcana, perception, survival, and a few other ones and even had advantage on a few but couldn't roll above a 5 and even with his modifiers couldn't get high enough. It was very funny to watch. He eventually got the rest of us and I gave it a go. First with an investigation and rolled a 19, insight and rolled a mod 20, arcana nat 20, and perception a mod 19. The skill check to figure out what it did and how to activate it was 15 or 16 I think. I found an inscription on it that said how to activate it, a warning that I needed to be exact, and what it did. I talked to the dm about it out of game and he agreed to give the group devils sight if I could come up with a good enough wording for it, but he said that it would be nerffed because he didn't want us to just go around in darkness and murder hobo everything. Seeing as we were only level 3 at the time and we had 3 darkness casters (I didn't have my dart yet). So in game I rolled a nat 20 on performance to activate it and asked it "I would like for those chosen by the gods, to stop the mad king, to have the eyes of my ansestors". Out of game he told me that if I rolled a 5 or lower it wouldn't activate, a 6-19 I would have to be exact on my wording, and a 20 it would grant us the sight nomatter how it was worded. He thought it would have been funny if I rolled a 6-19 and had thousands of demon eyes start falling into the room but lucky for me it was a nat 20. We are now level 7 about to be 8 and honestly used the darkness a handfull of times so we didn't abuse the power gifted to us by our dm. We are starting to face things that have devils sight now too so it wouldn't be that abusive now anyway. Shortly after he granted us with the devils sight we got to the first real town and there was an enchanter so I figured I would save some ki by asking for a dart I had to be enchanted with darkness. I keep it in a spell scroll tube (stole the idea from youtube tho I can't remember who to give credit).
the sad thing is even though i know monks are under powered i will still play them if i ever get back into dnd and when i do what ever dm i'm playing with is going to buff the shit out of me just so i can keep up with the others
My thing against the monk are: 1 - Is the only class that has a cultural archetype attached. There aren't many examples of martial monks outside of the Far East, and the class doesn't allow you to play a boxer, a pugilist, a wrestler or similar (the barbarian and the fighter are even better at this, as they are based on strength and constitution). 2 - The class doesn't do what it promises you, and punishes you for trying, by relying on Ki for everything, from attack to movement. 3 - The class doesn't bring anything new to the table that another class can't do better one way or another.
I disagree with most of this but not all. Namely, I think that ki points are necessary for the monk not to run amok (funny play on words so it must be true). I also think ki mechanics have an undeserved bad reputation-after all, everyone love’s the warlock’s limited spell slots that come back on a short rest. The other point I disagree with is that the monk doesn’t bring anything unique. I think that their battlefield maneuverability and control prowess in one-on-one combat. Is that always effective? No, and it shouldn’t be.
@@ConstructedChaos Warlock may have this mechanic, but back of it there's a ton of interesting options on the Invocations, and you even get a fairly decent spell list. Far more than the poor monk got. For maneuverability and martial control, you can get any martial class to do the same thing, some even better. Grapple? Barbarian got fury. Toss people around? Let the fighter handle it. Hit-and-run? This is the whole rogue thing. And these classes got it free, don't even need to pick an archetype to do it. Monk is a sloppy class, and in my games, I personally recommend my players to not play with it. If you want a light fighter with a lot of shinnanigans and tricks, either rogue or bard can serve you way better. Want a fist fight master? Barbarian, fighter or ranger for you.
@@obliviouslich1722 You’ve listed lots of examples that do what the monk does on an individual feature basis but none that do it all. Monk is the class for that. Plenty of people in the comments would agree that monk is perfectly playable alongside other classes and it’s this whole mentality that certain classes aren’t even worth considering that made me want to create this video series in the first place.
I would rebalanced stunning strike ti lower the dc but add 1 martial die to the damage of the attack. That way, it doesn't control the enemy as often but is a worthwhile way to add damage if you shouldn't succeed to stun the enemy.
I think many would argue that even just adding the damage without lowering the DC would be worthwhile. However, I think if I were to give the monk a boost, I'd leave stunning strike as is and focus on some of the other abilities--namely the amount of ki the monk gets and the amount of damage they do with their unarmed strikes in general.
I've looked hard and have found very few results. May I ask what are your opinions are on a Shadow Monk/ Assassin Rogue build? Most have said go heavy Rogue and dip in Monk. It seems to be a 12/8 split either way, but when I came up with this character I was planning heavy Monk. so I guess I'm asking what would you suggest for a Tabaxi raised as a Monk, discovered his ancestors were Rogues, and is CG... for now... lmao
Realistically, the two classes (and subclasses) tend to play pretty well together. I'd agree with a lot of the advice you've received thus far and say that more levels in rogue would most likely result in a more powerful character. I think going 12/8 makes a lot of sense (because the shadow monk's invisibility feature is just going to eat your action for advantage on a single attack). That feature can be worth it if you're planning things out a lot but it's just not worth sinking extra levels into it in my opinion. The only real downsides here are that your monk's martial arts die would be stuck at a d6, and you'll have some pretty limited ki--even at the crux of your build. But, I'd also consider dipping a third class here... Taking fighter for action surge as well as blind fighting, second wind, and a couple levels of a better hit die! It's likely going to cause you to miss out on an ASI/feat but that bit extra is really going to help you nova on turn 1 with action surge. That'll more than make up for any lack of martial arts die and ki points. That said, this is all just a surface level glance. Feel free to offer any counterpoints as to why you'd rather not do any of this haha.
@@ConstructedChaos that was really well put and I appreciate you taking the time to give your input. I will certainly look into the benefits of dipping into fighter as well!
Agreed with Chaos that dipping fighter 2 will help improve the build. I agree and disagree partially with the opinions you've been given and i'll share my inputs below which will focus on optimization: 1. rogues and monks generally don't mix together well as both have abilities that work better if main classed. furthermore, their attack style may be similar (skirmishers) but also drastically different. rogues want to be one-hit strikers. monks are multi-attackers. Their difference is more relevant. 2. from what you've read, they are partially correct that more of rogue is better but what i'd like to add is what is implied here is less of monk is better. meaning 0 monk levels is the most optimal. this means if you're going to have monk in a build, they better be the main class or not be included at all. there's no middle ground if you're concerned about performance as monks make bad dip classes/multiclasses. 3. As mentioned in #1, rogues are generally better as main classes but there's a couple of exceptions. one of those is indeed the assassin which works best on a multiattacker which the monk is. so if you're going to dip rogue, assassin is indeed one of the ways to go. so yes going monk + assassin is fine as long as you have monk as the main class with only 3 levels of assassin. notice i didnt mention shadow. i'll get to that later. so i'd advise against the 12/8 split and consider fighter levels as a tertiary class as Chaos mentioned and perhaps adding a couple more monk levels for diamond soul. like a 14/3/3 split. though keep in mind its always better to theorycraft a build with the expected ending levels of your campaign in mind as theorycrafting for 20 is pointless if your campaign is ending at level 10-15. 4. assassin works off of surprise. this is harder to achieve on a melee character, especially in latter tiers when enemies have blindsight/tremorsense. so assassin doesn't generally work well with most monks as they tend to initiate combat from melee. there's also a "perception radius" for creatures as indicated in the phb. an ambusher like an assassin wants to avoid this perception radius as much as possible. so ranged is the way to go. there are only 2 ranged options for a monk: sun soul or kensei while using ranged weapons. so i'd recommend either if you plan to go assassin. 5. if shadow monk is the core of the build, then I'd consider not using assassin and using another rogue dip or removing rogue entirely. for multiattacking, the best core in the game is fighter 2 + gloomstalker 3. you'd be better served adding those 2 instead to your shadow monk base if you're maining the shadow monk. 6. if you are interested in ideas for a ranged monk, i've recently posted a comment here of a sun soul monk build that you can check out.
imo a 'broken' monk requires a 1 level dip into War domain cleric. ;-) Divine Favour, Shield of Faith, and martial weapon proficiencies (for dedicating a versatile, martial weapon) are gold. War Priest is also nice for when you've burned through your Ki (or you're playing a Kensai archer) and scales with your Wisdom.
I started with 2 levels in hexblade warlock to get Hex on short rest, crit on a 19 and proficiency on martial weapons. With point buy and custom linage and taking Dex resilience I get 18 Dex and 16 wis and 14 con. As invocations I take perma mage armor and darkvision to 120ft. Now I take monk levels with a base AC14+wis+Dex=21AC and yes I am going to get bracers of defense as soon as possible for a 23 AC. I now take monk levels in either mercy or kensai. The later gives me another 2ac for 25. The former gives me free healing. As damage I get 3 attacks per round using Dex and a longsword for 3d8+16 damage and a other 3d6 with Hex for average 49 damage and the mob has disadvantage to resist my stuns. Once I get multiattack, add another 1d8+1d6+4 of damage for average 62 damage per round. Not to mention I crit on a 19/20. This is without spending any Ki for bonus damage.
@@ConstructedChaos you can. Page 5 in Xanathar, "Different game effects can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to AC but when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them applies." You can't stack worn armor with the ability. Mage armor isn't worn and doesn't provide armor, it just raises base AC from 10 to 13. So base AC is 13 instead of 10. The monk ability adds wis +Dex to base AC. Works with the same ability with blade dancer. You can also use bracers of defense since you aren't wearing armor. The ability says you can add your wis to AC as long as your not wearing armor. You don't wear spells.
So...if you just replace your entire monk portion of your build with probably any other martial, you'd get far more consistency and utility and damage overall. hex is not a good spell unless you cast it preemptively before combat begins. Taking a bonus action and spell slot or oplr feature to do so is so inefficient as it is, but on a Monk it physically pains me to think about it.
@@apollosungod6673 Hex is a bonus action to cast, and can be transferred without recasting during its hour long duration. A 2nd level Warlock can keep it up for 2 hours and can get it back on a short rest. Yes, you will lose the free unarmed strike in the first round, but your main attack will get another 2d6 to damage which more than makes up for it. Not to mention giving disadvantage to a savings throw really helps the party. On the second round, the mob now has disadvantage against Stunning Strike, and if you use furry of blows, you add another 4d6 damage. 3d6 without it. What makes Monk so awesome with Hex is it makes Stunning Strike much more serviceable and the Monk can get up to 4 attacks per round, making the Hex damage much better than other martial classes. Another great benefit of the monk/warlock is both classes resource replenish on a short rest, making them very complimentary. I am play testing it now, and the only real draw back is that I have way too many bonus actions. I am only level 5 now, and don't have multi-attack yet, so I am not getting the full effect, but the extra 1d6 when I cast Hex is nearly as good as my 1d4 unarmed bonus strike. My damage is pretty consistent, and I don't have much reason to use Ki at all. My party of casters really likes my Hex ability. I am currently Kensai, and the extra AC is nice and the range attack is good too, but I am finding Kensai doesn't give me much utility or use for Ki. I plan to rewrite with Mercy, for the extra Ki options. Once I hit level 7, with my staff damage is: Staff: 2d8+10(dex) + 2d6(Hex) Fist: 1d6+5(dex) + 1d6 (Hex) Disadvantage of Con With Furry of blows, Add another 1d6+5+1d6 I am certainly doing more damage than a Rogue of the same level.
@@jaysw9585 how does hex make stunning strike more serviceable? Saving throws are not ability checks, so the hex clause does not apply. I can guarantee you my rogue is doing more damage at the same level. But from a range. And they hit more often. And they don't need a resource to do it. And they have advantage on every attack. Lmfao
Shadow monks should have been spellcasters like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knigh but used Variant rule for spell casting where you use Ki to cast spells and you have x2 Ki. 6 points at lvl 3 where lvl 1 spell is 2 ki 😂
I'd be all for it! But, seeing how they failed at doing something similar with the way of four elements I think they would have done it a disservice haha. Seems like they're doing better with the newer playtest stuff though!
@@ConstructedChaos all that would happen at lvl 3 you have 6 ki points, cantrips and lvl 1 spells that Costa 2 ki to cast. You know 2 cantrips and 3 lvl 1 spells from new spell list. Expan bit more spells from 4 we already got. I would also make Shadow Step lvl 3 ability to teleport from shadow to shadow equal to your movement speed. At level 6 shadow step now gives advantage on your attackS. Lvl 17 when you use Shadow Step you can use Flurry of Blows. The idea is if you are hasted that doubles your teleport range but you must be able to see where you teleport so it is limited by your dark vision at night 😉 but torch gives Dim Light which you can use. Also currently Shadow Step is loss of dps, just use Flurry of Blows. Also if you chance lvl 2 ki to be free as Cunning Action and combine Flurry of Blows as without ki in to Martial Arts your only worry is 2x stunning strikes! At this point I might as well do my own homebrew fix to Monk and add way of four elements and Way of open hand to this ❤️ so many ideas for tiny fixes.
@@ConstructedChaos Actually it would be really easy to come up with solid subclass rework and then to test it. Here is my idea: Way of Four Elements -You are prepared castest with Ritual Casting. -At lvl 3 they unlock three Cantrips and extra one at the same level they can cast higher spells. -At lvl 3 they unlock first level spells. -At lvl 5 they unlock second level spells. -At lvl 9 they unlock third level spells. -At lvl 13 they unlock fourth level spells. -At lvl 17 they unlock fifth level spells. -They get three times more Ki points. (at lvl 20 they will have 60 ki points.) (Now just fill spell list of spells for them.) -at level 3 they get Fist of Elements which allows them to chance the damage type of unarmed strikes to Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning and they can use Ki points equal to their proficiency bonus to increase the Range of the attack equal to half of your momvement speed for each ki spend. Way of the Shadow -You have "Spells Known" -At lvl 3 they unlock 1 cantrip + Minor Illusion unless if they have it then another cantrip. -At lvl 3 they unlock first level spells. -At lvl 7 they unlock second level spells. -At lvl 13 they unlock third level spells. -At lvl 19 they unlock fourth level spells. -They get two times more Ki points. (at lvl 20 they will have 40 Ki points.) (Now just fill spell list of spells for them.) -At lvl 3 they also get 60ft Darkvision -At lvl 3 Shadow Step which now is limited to range of your speed. -At lvl 6 you get Improved Darkvision 120 and you can see in darkness spell casted by yourself. -At lvl 6 you get improved Shadow Step if you spend 1 ki you can use Flurry of Blows before or after using Shadow Step. -At lvl 11 you get the same invisibility. -At lvl 17 when you use Shadow Step all your attacks until start of your next turn have Advantage including if you spend ki for Flurry of Blows before using Shadow Step. Of couse this means Way of the Open Hand would be too weak in compersation (in my opinion) so... Way of the Open Hand -At lvl 3 you get improved unarmored defense which raises your AC 10 + Dex and Wis mod + Proficiency. -At lvl 3 your Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense and Step of the Wind don't cost Ki. -At lvl 6 you gain extra healt equal to two times of your Monk level. -At lvl 6 if you use one ki you can take two different actions of Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. (This would allow you to Dash and Disengage as Bonus Action or Dodge and Flurry of Blows or even Dash and Flurry of Blows making Monk super mobile.) -At lvl 11 your Flurry of Blows can attack now three times. -At lvl 17 your Flurry of Blows can attack now four times. (yes, I just want to punch the BBEG six times while also dodging) Now, question is, would these be too strong? You can easily balance the power of spells and how much they can cast them by adjusting the spell cost and amount Ki they get. Way of the Open Hand should get more hp, better AC and free Flurry of Blows to make it solid base. Shadow Monk gets less spells and should be more supportive spells (no dmg spells) but in return they gain dark vision and shadow step which later allows them to use flurry of blows if they wish to. Improved Darkvision allowing them to see on their own darkness is interesting idea to give them Devil's Sight without making you see as normal or in other words they still can't see Gloom Stalker. The Variant Rule suggest Spell Cost as following: 1st 2 2nd 3 3rd 5 4th 6 5th 7 I would make them bit higher: 1st 2 2nd 4 3rd 6 4th 8 5th 10 But this is literally just balance question. I would allow Four elements to drop four lvl 5 spells while Ranger/Paladin can do so only two times but they can also cast 1st lvl spell total of 15 times while four elements could do the same for 30 times thus we ask the question what is fair balance? You could set the cost bit higher or lower. I think it should be clearly defined that this is indeed Spellcasting (so you could take Eldritch Adept) but you use your Ki to cast the spells where you have the spell list and cost of spells and what level you unlock them. Instead of Slots it just shows at level X you can cast Y level spells which cost Z amount and you have 2x Ki or 3x Ki. The hardest part is to pick up a proper good valid spell casting. Like do you give Message Cantrip for Way of the Shadow? Perhaps Firiends cantrip? How about Comand spell? Now in case you would complain that I would be removing some Four elements moves that is true like Water Whip but you could just make them spells.
The problem with 5e Monks is that thematically they are awesome. But mechanically they aren't, often times they are extremely limited in design as to what you can do and how many times you can do it. And to make matters worse, subclasses rarely add anything to the class. A class so flavored as to perfection, martial arts and freedom, is antithetical that it feels so restricted and uninspired mechanically. The fighter, often times, mechanically is more like a monk than the monk. The battle master maneuvers alone, feels more like a martial arts master than any monk you could ever build. It is funny, how the best damage dealer, that is also the most versatile martial class, has also the best and most varied subclasses out of all the martial classes. While the monk has the worst and least varied subclasses out of all the martial classes. If you want to play a monk, it is only for the flavor, but if you really want to play a monk, I suggest multiclassing into battle master. The maneuvers alone, will make you feel like a martial arts master more than any monk could ever hope for.
Now, I am not saying the class as a whole is bad... I am just saying that the class gives you little to no variety of gameplay nor options. You could have an all-monks party, each making different builds and they would all be basically the same character. Unlike, all the other classes. Also, it gives you no variety in combat at all, you will go in attack flurry of blows and or stunning strike and that is it. For a class that is all about martial arts, you get to do no martial arts at all.
You definitely raise some valid concerns here but the actual power of the monk is quite ridiculous around levels 5-7. That said, I think you'll be happy with the proposed revisions for OneDND. I like what I've seen so far in the playtest material.
![MONSTER animation meme [Rain World: Downpour]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zPO323xT2OY/mqdefault.jpg)
If by "broken", you mean "in desperate need of a ground-up functional reform, even more so than Rangers and Artificers" then we can agree.
I wouldn’t say more than Rangers but I do realize there’s a balance issue haha. This is only the first of my guide series so the joke is probably not apparent yet. But, I plan on making a “broken” video for every class haha.
@@ConstructedChaos Ranger actually were already a much stronger base class than Monks before Tasha's and got *a ton* of upgrades since then - Monks . . . not so much.
Base class is debatable but the gloomstalker can be absolutely ridiculous haha. But I have to disagree besides that. I honestly think that monks are better in many situations. I think the issue is that many people don’t properly leverage the ki mechanic and the ability to get all of that back on a short rest.
Are they a bit underpowered? Yes. Are they so underpowered that they’re the worst class in the game or completely unplayable in 5e? Definitely not.
@@ConstructedChaos It probably would depend on the number of short rests per adventuring day between the "old" Ranger and the "old" Monk. If short rests are plentiful (3+ per day) than Monks were arguably ahead, if not, Rangers were certainly better because they had great spell selection since Xanathar's. Monks certainly weren't unplayable by any means - and could be tons of fun - but I would argue they were tied with Artificers as the weakest base class before Tasha's (Artificers had already come out in Ebberon and didn't change since then). Still, Monks were - and still are - fine and quite fun to play, imho.
I can agree there. My sessions do tend to be a bit lighter in terms of back to back combat encounters. I don’t run a whole lot of traditional dungeons so it makes sense that my experience would be different haha.
Either way, your point here is mine as well. All of the available classes are “broken” in that they’re fun to play and can shine given the right opportunities. It’s what I’m trying to get across with my guide series in the first place :)
Subclasses:
Way of the astral self: 05:56
Way of the cobalt soul: 06:17
Way of the drunken master: 06:31
Way of the four elements: 06:46
Way of the kensei: 07:01
Way of the long death 07:14
Way of mercy: 07:42
Way of the open hand: 07:53
Way of shadow: 08:12
Way of the sun soul: 08:31
Way of the ascendent dragon: 08:45
Thanks, friend!!
I am going use 3 Ki points and now the DM is stunned. So no dice rolling.
Yea you’ve pretty much got the gist of it there!
try to fail 3 15dc Con saves on a monster with +9 Con, maybe one will fail.
@@lucack6348 yes and then they lose an entire turn in a game where action economy is everything in combat.
@@ConstructedChaos Thanks for not being toxic about my opinion. I love the idea of monk, am playing in a champing where I am monk and I have been for almost 2 years. And I understand people who think Stunning Strike is OP. And it can in 1v1 battle, against a creature with low Con, but if you fight against many monsters, with height Con, the close to useless. And such are most fighters. I mean "Stunning Strike" is the only great thing in the whole monks class and it is not enough for a whole class. I mean personally.
@@lucack6348 I see your point but if you’re fighting that many creatures with +9 Con and only a 15DC save, you’re going to have other problems and everyone is going to struggle-not just the monk.
That said, I totally respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree haha.
I would like to say, in terms of production and presentation, this is a well made video and I definitely loved every minute of it. This being said, I fail to see how the Monk is overpowered in this video. You basically go through the Monk class and subclasses and adeptly describe their distinct flavors... but that's it. Monks are definetly cool, but overpowered? I must respectfully disagree with such heresy. If anything they are possibly the weakest class in the game, mechanically. Definetly the worst martial class in the game. While the Way of the Mercy and Astral Self monks are somewhat better than other monastic traditions, they are still rather weak. Despite Wizard's best efforts, the Monk remains weak for the following reasons:
-They continue to deal the least damage of all martial classes (no sneak attack, no great weapon master, weak base weapon die and forced to use their bonus action and limited ressources to deliver subpar damage). Sure Stunning Strike is decent but it targets the most resilient Monster Saving throw (Constitution), always targets 1 creature, and always lasts 1 round even at high levels. At the same level the monk gets this signature ability, other classes are casting spells like suggestion, Hold Person, Web, Fear and Hypnotic Pattern. And it just gets worse at higher levels, because Stunning Strike then competes with the likes of Otto's Irresistable Dance, Wall of Force and Forcecage. Wall of Force and Forcecage particularly drive this argument home since they can completely eliminate a threat and don't require the target to fail a single saving throw and they lost way longer than a round.
-They have the worst AC amongst all martial classes except the Rogue (which has better consistent mobility and ranged attack capabilities). They also have low HP compared to most martial classes that fight in melee (same as the rogue, but at least the Rogue is great from range). Yet, Monks must fight in melee...
-They make awful tanks, not only because of the aformentioned weak AC and HP, but because they have average saving throws until level...14! By that time, the fighter has so many feats he's probably proficient in 3 saving throws and can reroll some failed ones. Then you look at the paladin and it's just sad. They basically get a similar bonus to all their saving throws, but 8 levels earlier! To add insult to injury, they can extend this bonus to the whole party...
-And then there's the most problematic issue, the KI mechanic. With the exception of monks in TCE, too many of the classe's features cost KI, which means they burn them way to fast. Sure they regain them on a short rest but 1 KI point per level isn't huge, especially when they need to flurry of blows every round (1 KI) and potentially use stunning strike on most of their attacks each round (1-4 extra KI points). Add in the potential need to use patient defense and step of the wind sometimes and those points are gone faster than a bunch of twinkies at a weight watchers meeting.
Still, good video!
Thanks so much for all the thought and detail put into this comment! Your points are very much sound and resonate with a lot of the other feedback I’ve received so far. And, in large part, I don’t disagree.
As I’ve mentioned in other comments this video is more of a guide to the monk class that focuses on its good parts rather than the bad. I’m a firm believer that all classes can be played effectively in 5E (even the monk). Especially when combat isn’t necessarily the main focus of the game anymore. One can certainly argue that good RP is the goal of most campaigns now-although that varies of course.
And, while I do understand your point about the ki mechanics in 5E, I do find that most games allow enough time in between multiple combats for a short rest-allowing for a monk to regain ALL their ki points. I, personally, don’t often run more than a few combats back to back and I find that consistent across the majority of sessions I watch and play in as well.
Again, I don’t think what you’re saying is invalid. And I don’t actually think that monks are overpowered all the way around. But, like every class is (and like every class should be) they do have some aspects that can feel broken. Everyone has an opportunity to shine!
Does that devalue words like “broken” or “overpowered” in the first place? Yes, definitely. But I thought it necessary to use that verbiage in this video series to drive that point home. I’ve done the same in my Wizard guide as well as the one for Ranger that I’m working on currently!
@@ConstructedChaos Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, the class is a lot of fun. I was just taken aback slightly by your video's title. Great production all around. I've subscribed. Good luck with your channel!
@@unscathedhero8884 thanks so much for subscribing and I’m hoping my ideals become more clear to people watching these videos as I make more of them.
Either way, yours isn’t the first comment with concerns regarding the title and I’ve definitely been a bit more conscious of my naming conventions since this video was published! As always, I really appreciate the feedback!
@@ConstructedChaos My pleasure. Looking forward to your next videos!
@@unscathedhero8884 I think a good feat for a monk would be something like at level 11 if creatures analyzed by monk have disadvantage when attacking said monk
Man, your delivery of the information is fantastic. You're speaking with awe in your voice instead of just shouting at us and that accompanied with the music is so inspiring. Now I want to play one even more.
Thank you so much!! Hearing that means a ton to me and I’m so happy you’re enjoying it! 😊
I see a problem with using the word "broken" for "can do something useful once or twice per game", that's not broken (at least not in a good way you are impliyng), that's working as intended at best. It's a bit silly to call this "broken", while there are shepherd druids, bearbarian druids, sorlocadins, and twilight clerics. Cmon, that's not even close.
At least you could propose a way to build your monk to be broken, not just read out the roolbook entry on monks
This video is a class guide. I say as much in the description and title.
I understand monks are less powerful than most other classes. I say as much in other comments here. I think the point that you’re missing is that this attitude that revolves around building only the most powerful and efficient characters is only one way to play the game.
Every class brings something to the table and every character has the opportunity to be broken. I have literally cited examples wherein I’ve DM’d for players running a monk build that have decimated combat encounters that were supposed to be deadly CR.
But, thank you for your input. Your opinion is just as valid as mine.
@@ConstructedChaos lol and the monk is basically dead weight to the party.......as far as the games i play in are conserned
@@ConstructedChaos lol and the monk is basically dead weight to the party.......as far as the games i play in are conserned
@@lukaarsovski2279 my experience has been very different-as I mention in the video. I’m sorry you’ve had such a bad time with the monk class!
@@ConstructedChaos I have a great time with the monk class but they are the weakest class and the worst subclass options. Stun isn’t enough when everything else eats your limited ki pool so rapidly. Spellcasters just have better save or suck options and other options. They scale super well up to level 5 then it is just underwhelming. They are much better with Fizbans and Tashas but didn’t get nearly the overhaul rangers did and needed it more. Also ki fueled attack doesn’t work like that it’s a free attack when your action uses ki not a ki cost attack regardless of your action which is essentially useless.
While I totally agree with the capstone being lackluster I think the real capstone is Empty Body. Monk invisibility is super broken. Your invisibility isn't a spell so it cannot be dispelled, and it isn't broken by combat so you are just invisible for 1 minute. Which means all your attacks are at advantage, while all attacks against you are at disadvantage and you have resistance to all damage but force. I think the intention of the capstone was to immediately turn invisible and run away if you found yourself in a situation where you really didn't want to be.
For sure!! Didn’t mean to undersell the value of the 18th level ability. I hadn’t actually thought about the possibility of using your Perfect Self to just instantly pop Invisibility either! Pretty smart move there!
LOL, I assumed it was Invisibility (as per the spell) so I never noticed all those extra things. And what level did that show up at? Oh, never mind...
Compare that to 9th level spells and not really that broken.
@@Kitusser yeah i think way of mercy used to have invincibility, and open hand has insta-kill pressure points
@@shinobidaniel_12 Yeah true, but at that point the con save on things is insane. I feel like that ability is more there to make the dm's generally smug nature at that point when they hear the words "con save" disappear and force a legendary resistance to pop, and even then do a great amount of damage.
I love the monk class. I made a kenku monk, wanting to go way of the four elements. The dm threw a super strong enemy at us, a group of five, and I was the only one still alive at the end cos it couldn't hit me. The dm then threw me out of the game because it turns out he wanted a tpk for "story reasons" straight away.
Wow! No offense but that DM sounds like a bit of a jerk if he’d throw you out for that 😂
I mean yeah, he turned out to be. Mind you, it was my second time playing, but I rolled stat's in front of them and the dm approved my character in the first place. But oh well, dodged a bullet
geez, he could have just made the story become where the Kenku Monk was the only one who escaped, and joined the new party.
Oh wow. Did you a favour I reckon. I wouldn’t want to play with someone like that.
Monk needs fist weapons like wraps and gloves for unarmed combat. So they can be magically infused and convert to other damage types.
Also, a hadoken-type cantrip wouldn't hurt; something that doesn't burn ki. Maybe make a class that makes hadokens scale and multiplies with ki usage. (Obviously less scale than other spells so it is not broken --- burning 8 ki with a scaled cantrip would be ridiculous)
Or maybe gain Ki from Crits; that would be dope. Imagine flurry of blows crits and ki flowing back from flawless execution.
I love all of these ideas, honestly! I haven't ever been suggested the last two before.
Can't you just like.... Do that then?
The hadoken-like ability you're looking for is on the sun soul monk.
@@drewmannMcGee yes, you can: house rule it. But that doesn't work for 5E, it only works for your table. If you only ever play in your game and don't do TH-cam evaluation/build/etc videos that's great! Go for it! Otherwise it's kinda pointless in generic DnD 5E as it doesn't work that way.
I don't understand one thing u say about Stunning Strike. How can you use stunning strike after UNARMED STRIKE from Flurry of Blows when Stunning Strike says you have to hit another creature with a MELEE WEAPON ATTACK?
It can be a bit confusing but unarmed strikes are considered melee weapon attacks. However, they aren't considered melee attacks with weapons as is required by sneak attack, smite, etc. It's silly but it is the way it works.
@@ConstructedChaos Alright, thanks for clarification
Just subscribed. Surprised you don’t have more subscribers. These videos are so nicely written, filmed and edited! Great work
Thank you so much!! We’re starting to get some traction as a channel so growth is on the way!! Happy to have you along for the ride! 😊
I play a kensei monk dragonborn and let me say the vibe of the subclass is really great but my dm had to buff the subclass a little with homebrew
I haven’t had the opportunity to play Kensei yet but I have heard it’s one of the weakest mechanically! That’s awesome of your DM to let you power it up a bit, though! I’d be interested to know what changes y’all made!
@@ConstructedChaos for one. He upgraded the martial arts die so that at level 8 currently its a D8. And eventually around level 17 i think it becomes a D12. We also use a lot of stuff from tashas so things like focused aim and deft strike are immediately available for the current level. He also changed that the unarmed strike bonus action can be made with a weapon. And at level 11 that also applies to flurry of blows. A level 7 boon to give the character active parry as a reaction by adding martial arts die to my armor class when targeted by an attack. Ever since level 5 hes slowly felt more and more like a Witcher.
@@SolusEclipse sounds really fun!! Thanks for sharing that with me!
Take the mobile feat it's a very good way to be a support skirmisher
Which is unfortunate. I have been waiting for a good kensai reboot since the original oriental adventures. Most attempts are abominations. Making it a monk subclass was something I have been screaming since 3rd. By the time it happened, the monk had had it's proverbial nuts cut off.
I just wanted to write this for anybody that gets discouraged from playing a monk. If i upset people because i sound stupid, Im sorry. It was not my purpose. My purpose was to help people look at it from a different perspective.
Imagine a horde of troglodytes coming to attack your party and your in a cave, and you decide to wait until they get as close as possible to you, and before they do, you tell your party to close their eyes/dont look at you, and then all the suddenl all the troglodytes within 30 ft of you make a wis saving throw or are frightened of you. Now its just free real estate for you and your party.
This is what lvl 6 monk of long death can do. And they can do this any amount of times they want.
From my time of playing a monk i wouldnt say monk IS broken. From my experience, monk CAN be broken, or have its overpowering moments. The class is one of those classes where if your going to play it, and want really good value out of it, you cant just be laid back with your thinking. No. This class shines when you put your actual critical thinking cap on. One thing a lot of players i notice like to talk about is the lack of tankiness this class has as a martial class. See, with how the monk is built, i reaaaally really dont think thats what their intended for. I mean, look at all the benefits of mobility you can have with a monk. If that doesnt scream "hit and run" to me, then i dont know what does. especially when you can have a feat like mobile. "Lemme just hit you, then this guy,and then move back like 20+feet away. Ope, cant AOP me. Your not going to get high damage output like the other martial classes, yes, thats true. But you can constantly just whip around the battlefield constantly harrassing things left and right, making it good for a campaign that likes to have multiple mob like enemies. "But if your targeted its game over"
Lets be real here, i highly doubt your going to be the target the enemy will be worried about at first. The enemey is going to see your spellcaster, or your big brolic barbarian, and they are gonna want to do something to them. And even if you WERE going to be a target. Your going to be the one targets thats going to be a pain to just do something about. Especially when its later levels after you basically become a saving throw god. Instead of trying to be a constant "up close and always expecting to take hits" come at it with im "trying to take as least amount of hits as possible, and then keep dishing out these small lbursts of damage around the table"
Besides. with all due respect, im pretty sure the key idea of being a martial artist is not to be hit in the first place. And if you do, you want to make sure you dont take as much of a hard hit as possible. So in conclusion.
Are you going to be a big, huge, hard hitting juggernaut, no. Are you going to be able to throw a rock at someones face then next thing you know, a fireball spell goes off, no.your gonna have to go somewhere else for that
Buuuuuuuut. Eventuallyyyyyyy. Will you need to eat or drink? No
are you going to be a fast af boy that can zoom around the battlefield, poking enemies, where its enough to be annoying like a mosquito, yes. Are you going to be a Massive thorn in your DMS side if they try to make you charmed, frightened, age you, language barrier you, poison or disease you, or force your monk in a situation where they have to jump from reaaaally high altitude, but you are perfectly fine after you fall as you sprint across the lake that you just landed by? Heh. Trust me. you bet your sweet bippy you are
Well said, friend! This series of "broken" videos was started with the intention to show people that any class can be broken and that the relative power of each shouldn't dissuade you from doing what you want!
A 3.5 Monk I played, with feats in Grapple, Disarm and Trip. Martial Arts meant a Monk is always considered armed. Disarming an opponent would then allow an Opportunity Attack (OA). Getting up from prone, OA. If an opponent was grappled, disarmed and prone. There was little chance of getting out alive. Great against spell casters too.
That’s a good point too! While a lot has changed in 5E, you still can’t disarm a monk!
Well…. Unless you cut off their arms…
I like that the 5e monk doesn't need Str. But I miss my 3.5 monk's d8 damage early on.
The level 20 ability is actually a great ability if you are rolling initiative at the beginning of every combat encounter, which is suggested in the DMG as a way to keep combat from being too predictable. The ability only say “when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining,” it doesn’t say that it has to be at the beginning of the combat encounter.
That is a good point but I wonder how often you would roll for initiative if not at the beginning of an encounter? Still, for a lvl 20 ability, I feel like it could grant you more thank just 4 ki points-especially since you’d get them ALL back on a short rest anyway.
The only way this would be even partially good as an ability, let alone a capstone would be if you regained 4 Ki every round.
@@Rosivok it would be tolerable if it worked when you had ki, but bc it's only when you're totally out, it's awful
@@Rosivok I feel like it should've been a thing the base monk had from the start.
It feels like monks are starved for Ki points in the early game. I think monk should receive additional Ki based on their wisdom modifier. Early level monks would have more Ki points to use, thereby increasing utility.
Their capstone ability is just a let down. Any suggestions on what that revise ability should be?
I think the one thing that's keeping the Monk from being able to keep up with other martial classes in the game is the issue with unarmed strikes itself: very little customization options. So if anything else, it's not that monks are necessarily weak, it's just the fact that they are only weak by association with the least realized aspect of 5e's combat. Hell, in Pathfinder you can use Sneak Attack on unarmed strikes in certain cases. I think Wizards got so worried of making unarmed strikes overpowered that they made it useless.
I think what you’re saying makes a lot of sense. My favorite advice for this has been to take fighting initiate for the unarmed fighting style or a couple levels in fighter for that and action surge. It goes a looooong way haha
@@ConstructedChaos I don't really think that's enough imo. Wizards seem so scared to treat unarmed strikes as weapons that they don't realize it's the one thing that'll probably make it as viable as anything else. Take Pathfinder 1st Edition. Unarmed strikes are considered light one handed weapons AND natural weapons. Just doing that alone changes a lot. Maybe even make them finesse for monks, that kind of stuff. Why not let monks use Sneak Attack on unarmed strikes? Now they can be Batman! Why not smite with your fists? You can play out your DBZ fantasies if spec'd into properly! It would literally put them on par with other weapons rather than overshadow it. It's so baffling.
@@couver73 I mean, sure haha. I’m just giving you a solution within RAW. It would make a lot of sense for monks to just get a feature that classified their unarmed strikes as a different weapon type that qualified it for a lot of the other stuff. Not a bad idea for homebrew!
@@ConstructedChaos Your videos are great quality, and I love the way you describe character details.
I strongly disagree with you stand on monks though. RAW they're weak compared to other martials. Most of their features pull from the same resource pool that they don't have enough of at low levels, some that other classes get for free (ie Dash).
When the suggested fix is to MC to get X feat from other class, that kind say its not strong by its self.
I'm not saying Monk are awful but when they can't be the best at anything you try to build for. Treantmonk has a video explaining in detail what I'm talking about.
Bro, I dont know... Fun? Yes. Thematic? For sure. But broken?
In the context of other classes the monk is honestly a little under powered. It's damage is weirdly held back compared to other classes, especially since the fighter got the unarmed style in tashas. Stunning strike is great, but my expirience playing a few monks is that the save can really screw either the attacker or defender depending on the dice. Spending your last ki and theyake the save.... doesn't feel good.
For sure, your point has been made several times on this video already. But, when dealing in action economy, I think that stunning strike is one of the most potent battlefield control abilities in 5E.
As far as ki points as an expendable resource, I think it depends on the type of campaign you’re in. In most campaigns I’ve run and played in, there have only been a few combat encounters at most between long rests-much less short rests!
@@ConstructedChaos Hey, you know what tho? I saw this video and hadn't seen your channel before and didn't realize you did multiple "x is broken" videos.
And to be fair to monk, it only seems underpowered imo because it's a teamwork heavy class. The barbarian, paladin or fighter can enter the arena to fight alone but the monk functions best with a friend or 2 to act as sort of a support melee character. Probably my favorite class up to level 12 or so
@@bradbradfordson9158 exactly!! I think you can see what I’m doing here haha! Trying to figure out what I’ll cover next but I’ll probably start working on a Ranger is Broken video next week!
@@ConstructedChaos I would say the only two classes in the game that are explicitly NOT broken are Monk and Ranger barring perhaps the glory that is Gloomstalker lmfao
@@apollosungod6673 You can see my other comments regarding the monk but I actually think that Ranger is much better than you give it credit for here too. Swarmkeeper, Beast Master, and Hunter are all very strong choices mechanically and I think the other options can stand on their own just fine too!
Always nice to see monk getting some love anx appreciation
You bet! Every class deserves that treatment! ♥️
I haven't played a monk before...but now i want to 😂 Thanks for breaking this down!
Haha I've only gotten to play one a couple of times but I really enjoyed it! I always try to do something unconventional like a Voodoo-inspired Monk I'll be making a video on for next week! :D
From someone who’s favorite class is monk... just make sure you have a back up... just in case
After playing a monk for 4 months, I have found the experience rather underwhelming, as the best parts of playing one are mostly not in combat. Movement speed is nice, but when you are the only one that can do it, and your team doesn't scout things first, it doesn't have much purpose.
Stunning strike pisses me off, because people talk about it like is a broken ability. Dope, I can shut down potentially 4 enemies on my turn... if I hit them with a melee attack... and they fail a con save... based on my wis mod and not dex... assuming the enemy is either unlucky, or has low con, which is unlikely. So assuming best conditions, you burn all of your ki in 2 turns, and then are a mediocre fighter. It wouldn't be that bad if only you weren't barred from the highest damage martial options, like GWF and Sharpshooter.
Sorry to hear you had a rough time with your monk build! I’ve played as a monk and DM’d for monks plenty of times with more desirable results! What did that build end up looking like? What would you say held the build back outside of stunning strike not working every time you used it?
@@ConstructedChaos I'm currently running a Dhampir Mercy Monk, because I liked the concept of mobile blood bank. My first major disappointment was that Stunning strike comes at lvl 5, despite being the most well spoken thing about monks. I only noticed when we started at lvl 3, and stayed at 3 for a month or so. I think it shows up a little late. That coupled with you being unable to stun with ranged attacks has kinda cripple me in some combats.
Next was deflect missiles, which, while thematically cool, doesn't scale well, and is so situational, it doesnt come up. I'm currently 7th lvl, and haven't had a chance to use it. When there were archers, they weren't attacking me, and every other combat was with either melee, or magic. Sure, it might be crazy if I could return a guiding bolt, but I think I should at least get something like the riposte maneuver from battlemaster. I would argue monks should all have either Battlemaster or Open hand stuff by default.
The damage is lacking, as you can't use 2 handed weapons, and dont get fighting styles, and ranged weapons dont synergies with anything you can do. Unarmed damage is bad until 11th lvl, by then, fighters and some cantrips out dps you entirely.
I'm not a fan of monks being kinda MAD, requiring both high dex, and wis, but you can't ignore con.
@@Cosmic_K13 honestly, all your complaints here are very valid. I think the monk does tend to play best in levels 5-10 after stunning strike comes online, though. Your way of mercy stuff should go a decent way as well. Deflect missiles has the unfortunate designation of a reactionary ability so I find sometimes it doesn’t come up because you’re either so close to the enemy that they don’t want to shoot you or the DM has other targets in mind. In your case it sounds like the combats just aren’t built well for it-and that can happen with a lot of builds.
That said, if you’re not liking your damage output, I’d consider taking fighting initiate for unarmed fighting style or maybe even a level in fighter-though I agree that this option should be part of the monk RAW. Would be great if that was there in place of deflect missiles, honestly!
@@ConstructedChaos you need to properly look at other classes before you say monk is fine.
@@Staff7 you need to look at my other videos before you assume that I haven’t 😂😅
I played a Way of Mercy monk up to level 10, compared to the other classes I felt underpowered, especially in the damage category. And since 5e doesn’t let you “downgrade” actions, like dropping a move action to do two bonus actions, I never felt I got to do everything I actually wanted. The stunning strike is cool, but any monster worth stunning, usually have enough con save to not be affected.
THAT SAID, the Healing hand ability is one of the few healing abilities in game that doesn’t have the limitation that it doesn’t work on undead or constructs, so the fact that we had a dampir in the party actually made my character somewhat vital.
The way of mercy monk I played definitely didn’t feel underpowered compared to the rest of my party! Of course, it was a level 20 one-shot haha
Dhampir arent undead though? Even in UA they were undead+humanoid and the same ua said that if something works on one of your types it works on you, so normal healing spells would work on UAdhampir
@@The_Yukki I don’t know where he found that dampir, he at least claimed it counted as undead in regards to healing, point still stands though, Hand of Mercy can heal things that most spells can’t
In my opinion, Way of the Kensei monk is probably the most useful, yet unfortunately subpar compared to other martials.
The monk desperately needs a way to regain Ki points, and the only enemies worthy of spending Ki points to try to stun are the ones that are most likely to succeed on them.
I usually change these to try and make the gameplay more fluid - spending up to 2 hit die as a bonus action to "take a moment" and regain Ki points, as well as having the Stunning Strike now impose disadvantage on the next attempt if the current one fails to stun.
I also want to touch on the class features. They are really not that well put together. The slight movement speed increase at those high levels is absurd, barely any defensive options, and a horrible level 20 feature. WotC really thought they had something going on with this class, but they really screwed up.
I think way of the open hand, way of mercy, and way of shadow do pretty well also but I agree that a fix for the base monk lies somewhere in regaining ki or just having more of it.
That said, stunning strike only needs to work once! Perhaps even a build with the new metallic Dragonborn’s enervating breath could be fun to play with…
And I’ve started taking a couple levels in fighter for action surge and unarmed fighting style instead of the capstone on a lot of builds. It works out pretty well!
I cannot stress enough how much I want this damn channel to succeed
Hahaha thank you so much!! I think you and I feel the same way! 😂😊
Amazing, great job!
Thanks so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it! :)
Naginata would be a form of pollard but probably more like a Halbert or glaive.
What are you referring to?
@@ConstructedChaos you mentioned that you could potentially make a battle are a dedicated monk weapon. There are Oriental versions of weapons that I always like to give monks,. It's not a long sword, it's a katana. It's not a sickle, it's a kama, it's not a dagger, it's a tanto. Guess it's just flavor, but I remember a blade on a stick, which is your basic battle axe.
@@timkramar9729 Ohhhh nice!! I dig it! Not with a shovel, but with a spade! ;)
While I won't argue that Monk is anywhere near perfect. I think a big problem we run into is that Monks are one of the many classes built around longer days with more short rests and back to back encounters. Which is what most class abilities are balanced around.
But many people play with significantly less encounters in a day. Which slants the balance towards classes and builds that can "nova" their way through single encounters. In other words, (most) fullcasters and specific nova builds are favored. Leaving Warlock and the rest in the cold.
So I fear a lot of this "imbalance" mentioned by the community is mostly self-inflicted. Similar to DM's stressing about the nat 20 skill check homebrew derailing sessions.
I think you’re probably on to something here. I’m certainly guilty of only running a few combats per long rest at the most. My games are very RP/Skill Challenge heavy.
11:14 you can 4 times attempt to make a stunning strike if you hit target that amount of times which is not always the case...
Totally! The point has been raised, discussed, and even “math’d” to death in other comment threads. I still stand by the fact that stunning strike is pretty likely to stick when you want it to.
Currently playing a Sun Soul Monk. Background was raised by a cult to a red dragon. Escaped the cult and is obsessed with becoming stronger so he can wipe out the cult.
Oooo Very cool! Thematically, sun soul is definitely a favorite of mine!
@@ConstructedChaos definitely not the most powerful. (My dm loves power builds) but he is an almost innocent stranger to the world and he is so fun to RP.
@@michaelj.mccall6530 I completely agree and I think having fun is the most important part of play! Our table has a big emphasis on story and RP. Some of my players prefer making power builds but they know that I'll help to level the playing field with other players by introducing new mechanics, items, scenarios, etc.
A small note: Way of the Drunken Master refers to a form of material arts where you ***appear*** to be heavily intoxicated, which is why the subclass gets performance as a free skill. The whole deal is that you trick opponents to underestimate your skills and strike unpredictably with surprising force and odd angles at times. In DnD, it can be flavored in a way that the monk’s fluid movements allow them to weave around combat and lash out in an unpredictable manner or go with a drunkard, though that is a flavor for this subclass that I don’t particularly enjoy
Note that what I said is a heavily summarized explanation from someone who isn’t a martial artist and doesn’t actively study martial arts, though I find it fascinating enough to remember small tidbits here and there
Fair enough! Sorry-the extent of my martial arts knowledge begins and ends from shows like Naruto 😂
Still, that’s very interesting! I’m sure you could play the flavor either way but I really like that it doesn’t pigeonhole you into just doing that one thing.
My Drunken Master monk took a level in Bard so he could accurately portray being not only drunk, but a drunken bard to add a whole level of subterfuge.
@@PerthScienceClinic oh now that is FANTASTIC haha!
Currently playing as a Drunken Master at 6th level. I feel as though I’m not playing to it’s full potential and I have a very strict DM (but I feel as thought he himself doesn’t really know how the monk work…..). I’m either completely useless in a fight or I excel in roleplay with drunken shenanigans. Ah I’ve almost died “thrice”. So usually I’m hesitant on how my monk really works on the number of attacks I have: I find it mildly confusing. And because Im a tiefling monk I get free of charge thaumaturgy, hellish rebuke and darkness.
So I have spellcasting ability and spell save 14 and +6 on spell attack bonus.
I’ve so shitty rolls when it comes to my attacks (when I roll d20) if I wanna use ki-point and do flurry of blows and I feel as though when it comes to my reactions they always always fail…(cause if I become hit I should be able to use hellish rebuke or if I’m grabbed) I’m just always hit and I get no chances to use reactions (cause you were talking about that the monk is like running the game) well I feel veeeeeery useless…..
just a comic relief. I don’t want my monk to die cause I made a really cool backstory. I just want to land a hit (I’ve played 12 sessions and not one of them I’ve done anything that I could say I’m proud of….
I feel like I don’t get to play my monk because of either situation or my DM doesn’t really wanna put in the effort of my monk.
@@kristbjorglara What’s your stat spread? Because I your build sounds like it’s very MAD
Personally Monks combo too well with support casters. Like casting enlarge and haste on a monk, and then flight just to add icing on the cake
I do find that they typically benefit the most from boons like this with support party members! Ask your artificer friend for winged boots and go to town! 😜
@@ConstructedChaos they definitely don't benefit the most lol. When your attacks are by nature weaker in damage than others, making them more reliable to hit isn't gonna be better than making those others more reliable
@@torunsmok5890 it’s an important distinction between the monk benefitting the most and the party benefitting the most. What I’m saying here is that the monk gets the “most improved” award, basically. I thought you’d actually agree with that take haha.
Why would you cast enlarge and haste on a monk when you could just target the Paladin or Barbarian or Fighter? Tf?
Monk would be better if level 20 got your martial arts die a d12 and if the cap stone was if you start your turn with less than 5 no points you gain 2.
I definitely agree with you there! That level 20 capstone ability leaves a lot to be desired but this would get it there!
I would change it to:
- add your wistom and dexterity modifire for attack and dmg if you attack unarmed if your kensei this bonus also counts on each chosen weapon.
- your non damaging actions and conditioneffects on enermies cost 1ki less (so it helps also astral monk).
- you can paralyse ones per day a creature with your stunningstrike without a savecheck and ignoring immunities but it also cost 3 extra ki.
- your ac improves by your proficiancy once per short rest for a minute as long you wear no armor and arent polymorphed. (If you want you can add ki to the cost, but immo the monk is allready overloades)
- you can spend 6 ki (5 cause of the reduction) to gain haste for an hour. As long you have this effect you can react without limits, but only one per action forcing a reaction.
But then this would only fix the monk on lvl 20 xD
Nah, a d12 martial arts die is shit tier at level 20 when everyone else is rocking +2-3 weapons. 1d12 is available for fighters and barbarians and others at level 1...why do monks have to get the shit end of the stick in nearly every feature they get?
Way of the Soulknife. Wasn't a bad homebrew, but guess it isn't official.
Well, soulknife is an official rogue subclass. Are you confusing the two or was there something I missed?
@@ConstructedChaos no, I realize it's a valid rogue subclass, but I would like to see the same class for monks. I've seen 5e content for Way of the Soulknife but it's not official content. Monks are cool. They don't do the most damage but they are cool?
@@ConstructedChaos there was a UA soulknife that was a monk subclass. then when they actually did a soul knife in official content, they turned it into a rogue subclass.
@@timkramar9729 I see! And yes, monks are very cool! They're best utilized as battlefield controllers and supporters to some extent--it's not necessarily all about their damage output!
I don't see how so many people see monks as dangerous to their game balance. Yes, you can Stun - and that's great! But at level 5, with 5 Ki points, you can blow through all those points SO FAST! Also, Constitution saves are, in general, some of the highest saves in the game. You can totally run out of Ki while trying to stun down a person. So, much so, the Party holds back while I try to stun. That is their idea of depletion of legendary resistances before they try their spells. Also, Shadow and 4 Elements monks have such BAD costs for their Ki, it's tragic. They should have been given spell slots.
And at 30mins of a short rest you get it all back!! I don’t see monks as dangerous to the game’s balance. After all, as pointed out in other comments, I plan to make videos like this for every class!
But let me also paint you this scenario:
A level 5 party faces off against an Ettin with a pet owlbear. The ettin fails his con save twice in 3 attempts while the rest of the party solos the owlbear. Then, the ettin lands a single attack before being beat down by a monk with no ki points and the other party members. True story haha.
@@ConstructedChaos sounds like you had some very bad saves or a divination wizard or star druid or something was manipulating some saving throws against you. An Ettin has to have a really high con- isn't it classed as a giant?
Hahaha truly just some terrible rolls. Ettins have only +3 to con saves but they do have advantage against being stunned. Still, being able to steal action economy away from creatures is very very powerful in 5e. And everything is bound to fail eventually.
@@ConstructedChaos Terrible rolls happen but for every round I've heard where the Monk pulled out a clinch win, I've actually seen two where they burned a bunch of Ki and got nothing for the effort.
@@Comicsluvr as you say, bad rolls happen haha.
Vecna: "You cannot win, you lack the power to defeat me...."
Paladin: "I don't, but she does."
**lvl 20 sun soul monk looming ominously over Vecnas shoulder**
Vecna would be stunned....
Just so you know, I wholeheartedly agree with the 20th level capstone ability shortchanging the monk class!! I think that they should get at least 10 ki points back so that, at least, they'll have a fighting chance to finish off the final boss!! Thoughts?
I mean, at level 20, I don't think it'd be a stretch for them to get all their ki points back for every combat haha
Worth noting that Stillness of Mind doesn't actually work some of the time, because several effects that make you charmed of frightened also force you to use your action (meaning no using your action, since it's already been used) or just incapacitate you (meaning you can't take actions). This can be a bit of a bummer... especially since some paladins get AoE immunity at the same level.
Were I to redesign it I'd probably make monks immune to charmed and frightened instead, and maybe rename it to Iron Will, or something like tha, and let them use Ki to end a charm or frightened effect on an ally instead. Slap some sense into your ally; let them make a new save and add your martial arts die to the roll. Seems more fun to me, as it expands the role of the monk within the party.
Definitely worth noting and I absolutely agree that I’d rework it that way if I were helming the SS DND.
I feel like they didn’t really know where to go with the monk class, but multiclassing a monk can be ridiculous, like the shadow monk/ rogue assassin multiclass is pretty sweet. You only really need that 3 level dip into rogue, and the rest is straight shadow monk from there. The ability to turn invisible and it not burn a ki point is nice, immunity to poison and diseases that aren’t curses, deflect missile, stunning fist, ki points coming back after a short rest, gaining another ki point every level, shadow step, slow fall, negate fall damage, flurry of blows, it’s a lot to play with in my opinion. Mixing the wood elf’s extra mobility with the mobile feat, and adding shadow step is ridiculous. I managed to stunning fist an assassin that was attempting to flee by using all 60ft of my movement, and then shadow stepping another 60ft. It’s a character you play if you want to play someone that can be an all arounder.
Monks do certainly lack a little bit of identity with 5e but largely ended up as a sortof skirmishing battlefield controller. Honestly, I'm really excited by the improvements they've proposed for the next edition!
Currently playing a way of the shadow monk. I actually find her a lot of fun because I'm also playing shadar kai. With the mobility feat she becomes formidable in fighting. I teleport using blessing of the raven queen which gives me resistance to all damage for a whole turn, then use stunning strike, and gain advantage on all of my attacks. Really wail on the enemy.
Nice!! Shadow monks can definitely be among the most powerful if you can take advantage of darkness. But, even that aside, this character sounds extremely formidable!
Talks about monks, proceeds to show a mummy lord BBEG picture, lol
WOTC only has so much art that I can use as part of a video haha. Just gotta use a little imagination ♥️😉
astril monk+ Ecco knight is amazing had a amazing time tonight playing a rabbit man 😆😆😋
Ohh that does sound like an interesting combo!
the difficulty with unarmored defense, and this goes for barbarians too, is that the AC stays static as you level , meaning these two classes will be hogging the rings and cloaks of protection for the party
I certainly would love to see some improvement to unarmored defense abilities in the next iteration of DND.
its a fun class but its definitely not a class for beginners
The difference being that not only does barbarian unarmored defense allow shields, it also works off con, meaning a barbarian can put points/good stat rolls into con without jeopardizing their other stats while monk can’t. This, combined with their hit die being a d12, while monk is stuck with a d8 for some reason, leads to it not being as big a concern for barbarians.
If you want to move around a lot while not being able to evade massive hits, absorb or cure hits, deal comparable damage as other characters, or do something useful without running out of ki points and other resources, yes, choose to play a monk. Yes, you can survive a fall from a great height, but how can you help your comrades win the combat?
You can use the same logic for spell casters and their spell slots 🤷🏻♂️
I think the monk has issues with scaling, at least in combat.
Levels 1-5 they’re pretty decent at contributing to DPR by being a skirmisher. Their damage at these levels is actually respectable.
The damage doesn’t scale well enough after level 5. There’s a transition that happens after this where the monk usually becomes more valuable as a support character. There is a problem with as the change is counter to everything a player has learned how to play from levels 1-5.
Much like the hex spell can sometimes hold back a warlocks strength as they get stronger.
I couldn’t agree more but I might also add that a monk gaining wisdom and relying less on combat in later levels is pretty on-brand in terms of flavor!
Still it would be nice to see something better than timeless body at 15th level. I think that alone would solve a lot of issues.
Too many people saying that they aren't great tanks, or great DPS, or great...blah blah blah... All are forgetting that this is not a combat only game.
That is a very easy thing to forget! High dexterity and wisdom can make the monk a pretty great asset in other areas just on its own merit. That said, I would love to see the monk get a better hit die at some point. I don't think it's 100% necessary but it would make sense.
I just made a character for a new game--the DM has a homebrew feat for variant humans that must be taken at 1st level that allows variant humans who take the feat to be natural born lycanthropes. I just built a level 2 Weretiger Monk. This is my first time playing a monk and the first time playing a weretiger, so this will be an interesting campaign. I took investigation proficiency from being variant human, history and arcana proficiencies from my background, and acrobatics and athletics from my monk class. My backstory is I was a academic who has written several books on the history of the continent and serves as a librarian at a university. He's taking a sabbatical to join an adventuring party after some monks visited the library, as those monks inspired my character to train his body as well as his mind.
Oh that sounds like a really cool combination of flavor! I wouldn’t have thought to put those together!
Fastest way to fix monk? Remove ki cost to flurry of blows. That’s pretty much it, they’ll get a minimal damage boost, more points to use for their subclass abilities, and they can use their action to use the other monk abilities if they need to.
Oh, and give the four elements monk incremental access to mold earth, gust, shape water, and control flames.
Many would argue that you could remove ki points entirely and I’m compelled to agree with them.
I feel like Wizards of the Coast is afraid of giving the monk some really good subclasses. Most of the subclasses feel underwhelming, especially with late game abilities. About the only three that seem useable are Open hand, Shadow and Kensei for ranged attacks. Way of the dragon at late game grants the monk 10 ft blindsight at 17th level. A fighter can get that at 1st, and a paladin or ranger at 2nd. That being said, Monk is certainly fun to play. I currently play a Harengon lv 6 Open Hand Monk with one level of Twilight Cleric to make my already speedy bnuuy even speedier on initiative. It makes him able to see in the dark, along with giving him two spell castings (Usually spent Bless, Armor of Faith or an emergency Healing Word) and a few cantrips. And with the Crusher Feat on him, I've been able to devastate enemies by robbing them of their reactions, knocking them prone, knocking them back with Crusher with no save and granting advantage on all attacks against them if my bunny crits, and I can use Bunny Hop in place of Step of the Wind to disengage and save my ki points for flurry of blows.
I think you’re right on the money here. And that harengon build sounds incredibly fun!! It works so well with monk!
Just on Unarmored Defense and RPing, all character's AC benefit from their Dexterity (depending on what armor they decide to wear). The real difference is the monk's Wisdom makes them harder to hit. That's important to consider when RPing your monk. It's basically heighted 'combat awareness'...They're just as 'nimble' as the rogue.
Good point! More or less, this was the point I was trying to make!
I played a enlightened toad monk, you can imagine how that went
Were you using grung as your race mechanically? I've heard a lot of people like that combo!
Oh, and nice production and costumes and stuff. Very Cool!
Thanks Warren!! I like to have fun with these haha
Playing a monk… I could just punch this orc off this ledge, but with Slow Fall, it’s just so much more fun to jump off with them and body slam them, taking 0 damage haha.
It gets even better when you can run up walls! Grapple + running up walls + Slow Fall = WWE
I've actually not had the opportunity to play a grappler build but they always sound so fun!
I've played a grappler wizard (rolled very high stats) it was pure silliness.
@@ConstructedChaos For a grappler build i recommend the homebrew class Pugilist
@@Guldfisken90 thanks for the tip! Though, I’ll probably try to make something within the core rules so I can make a video about it later too haha.
Yeah! Let's make the Monk even MORE MAD by making them a grappler which is built off STR! 😎👍
can someone help me fing the image used at 5:24? ITS SO BEAUTIFUL AND I NEED TO MAKE MY NEXT MONK IN ITS IMAGE
It's in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything under "Religious Orders"!
Most people only consider damage in the equation of useless or not useless. Your thoughts are fine. As a gm/dm, every time a player has played a monk they've loved it, except for one guy who was wanting to be the most damaging class he could be.
This guy gets it!
So, what else are you consider in the equation? Monks are mediocre-to-bad at everything, except maybe mobility (and they can't use this mobility because no damage). Flavor is the only thing that they have. Is it wrong to wish for mechanically good (or at least not bad) class?
@@notsochosenone5669 not all encounters are combat-based. Stunning strike is an extremely powerful tool even in the late game and the ability to speak and understand all languages, remove reliance on sustenance, etc is pretty broken in its own right depending on the campaign.
@@notsochosenone5669 but, no. It definitely isn’t wrong to want more out of the class in terms of DPS. I totally get that. I just don’t think that’s the intended use. Monk looks like more of a battlefield controller with fairly resilient stats and abilities for staying alive.
@@ConstructedChaos Stunning strike is works like 30% of the time (and this is without 65% chance to hit in the first place). So this unreliable joke of battlefield control is just bad if DM don't fudge rolls or something. Why praying for random if you can play druid and be actually good at support and battlefield control? Stay alive with what? d8 hit die and joke of AC?
When i choose monk i want to be Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan-like fast punching stunt machine, but i can do neither - samurai fighter can make like 10 strikes - monk can make only 4, and even something as basic as jump is impossible because Wotc forget to make jumps DEX-dependent for monks. Ironically enough, only Tortle STR monks can be good at jumps and at least semi-effective at the same time.
I've played a Monk in every edition since 1st ed. Oriental Adventures, including the Monk Kit in The Complete Guide to Clerics in 2nd ed. After missing the 3rd ed. train, I haven't brought myself to suffering through another Monk build. I found it better to choose classes which haven't received much attention in awhile, like the Bard. That said, as a DM the only monks that I have see be "competitive" in my optimizer groups are ones who are able to roll high starting stats. Point buy does not seem to do this MAD class any favors. As a martial artist IRL I have always loved the archetype, but it still seems to miss the mark. In previous editions the Monk received the greatest access to proficiencies (or skills), as all proficiencies were universally accessible to them. I would have loved to have seen that aspect of the monks explored more mechanically; perhaps they should've been given the extra feat given to fighters to represent this specialized access to training.
If I was into min maxing (I'm not) I would do 15 in DEX, CON, and WIS, with 8 in the others.
If I was interested in DPR, I would have played a fighter.
GREAT video! Terrible title though lol
The fact is that yes, the monk is broken, but not in a good way. They have resource management problems and are cursed by having to manage THREE stats and choosing which to max, basically nuking their feat selections.
not just resource problems but their most popular ability doesn't work 2/3 of the time. none of their other abilities are quite impactful numbers wise. the whole unarmed fighting style just does bad dmg. they don't lend themselves to multiclassing (where the resource problems become more of an issue). and they can't wear armor. they are mediocre or bad at everything. they can't do anything better than any other class.
Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the feedback! I've gone into more detail on my position in other comments but I would definitely love to see Monk get a boost with One D&D being tested now.
Moreover, this video series is about the potential for each class to be broken. It's my effort to alleviate some of the exaggerated hate that certain classes get.
One thing I would give Monks as part of their Martial Arts ability is that they can choose to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing damage depending on the way they strike their target with their hands. A closed fist is Bludgeoning, delivering a karate chop is Slashing, and quick jabbing with your finger tips is Piercing. Yes you aren't actually cutting or piercing into the body of your target, well maybe unless you deal a Critical Kill Blow, but the impact of the motion and your Monk training allows you to deliver blows that imitate those other damage types.
That would certainly be an interesting change! But, as I so often take a fighter multiclass dip on my monks now for the unarmed fighting style, I would love to see that added into the base class as well!
does the dnd community not grasp clickbait titles
All I'll say is.
In the D&DBeyond description included in the video for Stunning Strike, it clearly specifies that the Stunning Strike can be used when "you hit another creature with a melee WEAPON attack", which I don't think falls under the category of an unarmoured strike. I'm currently playing a Monk in a campaign and I follow this rule, and let's just say...my Monk has almost died 3 times XD so it is no longer a broken ability if you take this detail into consideration
Unarmed strike does qualify for melee weapon attack according to the official Sage Advice Compendium.
I think the exact quote from it states: “For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.”
So make sure your DM is aware of this so you can get your ability back! 😊
There's some confusing technicalities there. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack" but not an "attack with a melee weapon", but it's the former that Stunning Strike requires, so you can absolutely stun with unarmed strikes.
I don’t really see the gripes about Monks seeing as no one really plays them by the core books anyway. But then again, neither does anyone for any of the other classes.
The Class has minor issues that are fixed easily enough before the game starts.
The secret is understanding that the Core Rules REALLY ARE JUST GUIDELINES.
I don't like the core Monk class so, as a result, I don't like most of the subclasses. I don't like the fact that virtually everything you do burns Ki. I don't care about the Short rest...I base my mental image of a Monk on any of a number of Kung Fu movies we all saw growing up. I can't remember a single one where a fighter stopped dodging because he was out of Ki points.
No other martial class works with this sort of resource unless you want to count the Battlemaster Fighter and even then they're getting a lot more for one of their Maneuver dice than an additional 1D4 damage.
IMHO the core Monk class needs work in order to make it less Ki-dependant.
I think the argument can be made to either strengthen the existing mechanics or to overhaul it but I can see your qualms with the class.
That said, I can’t think of any movies where a mage ran out of “spell slots” either or where a bard ran out of “inspiration” haha. Maybe hold out hope that monk gets a rework in whatever new edition WOTC just announced they’re working on for 2024.
@@ConstructedChaos well thats cause wizards have a shit ton of spell slots and cantrips
Great choice of music and b-roll. Your voice is soothing and kinda interesting! One suggestion tough... that awesome music on some parts is too loud and kind of distracting. Gerald Undone has good video on making your voice POP over music. Cool video bro, you got yourself a sub! :)
Thanks so much for the suggestions!! My newer videos should have some improvements to audio but I’ll check out that other video you suggested as well! I’m sure I’ll always have more to learn!
It would be cool if you use a halfling monks using the way of the shadow..That would be sweet just to see how they turn out? It was a thought take care..
I like that! Maybe I'll try one out in a future build video if I can finish these last few class guides before the next iteration of DND comes out haha.
way of the four elements go brr
Jokes aside, Monk is actually decent outside of a few small tweaks that can make the Monk better.
First, increase the die size by one at each level; as it stands, races with natural weapons can do a d6 in damage and the unarmed fighting style provides a d8 while mot holding weapons or a shield, so I don't think a d12 at high tire play or a d6 at level 1 is too strong. Second, Fighters and Barbarians can get up to an extra 6 AC from wearing magic armor and shields, so let Monks add their proficiency bonus to their AC. As a means of satisfying the desire for more Ki, I have seen the suggestion of adding a Monk's Wisdom modifier to their ki point pool, which seems fair to me as that may be at least 5 ki points at level 2 and 7 ki points at most.
Another suggested change was to remove the ki cost of Step of the Wind, and a change I thought of would be to allow the Monk to recover 1 ki point if they miss a bonus action attack or if a target success on a saving throw against a Monk's feature.
Have you seen some of the changes in the UA for the next edition? I think they're certainly on the right track but not quite there yet.
@ConstructedChaos Outside of the damage die for unarmed attacks, the nerf to Stunning Strike, the one super short rest, and the nerf(?) to Empowered Strikes, Monk is largely unchanged. Compared to what the Wizard and Sorcerer got, the charges seem less than mediocre.
@@Andrew_the_Worthy_Shield when I say they’re on the right track and not there yet, I mean I like the way they’re thinking. Giving the monk a free short rest instead of just pumping ki is a cool idea-but I think it should come online much much earlier. It would improve monk survivability in leu of a bigger hit die or better AC.
Another example can be found in their improvement of deflect missile. The problem there is that it should be rolled up into the same feature and also be made to include melee attacks against them-further improving survivability.
Those two changes alone would see the monk bolstered fairly well. I plan to mention as much in my feedback.
at level 3 whats the best MONK masonic sub class to pick?
While this will always depend on the campaign you’re in and what features would be most useful to you and your party, I’d say that way of mercy might be the best pick at that level purely based off of extra damage and the ability to provide some healing if needed.
I actually have a whole video on Way of Mercy Monks if you haven’t seen it already!
So i love monks, they are my absolute favorite class. However from my 1st time playing to my 50th, i came to realize Monks juet cant keep up with the other classes im much of anything, The only things they had going for them was the Movement Speed and Stunning Strike. While stunning strike still stands, things like Elk Totem Barbarians catch up and sometimes excel in movement speed. After DMing for a little bit as well the people who end up playing monks always seem to have less fin because they simply get out shined by either a Barbarian, Druid, or Fighter. So eventually i started giving Monks small features and buffs of my own and so far people seem to enjoy monks more. Monks still dont get broken like other classes with this but its made them more enjoyable. How i run monks is thanks to my addition to their martial arts feature, at level 1 a monk can throw 3 unarmed strikes in one turn. If they use an unarmed strike as an action that can throw 2 instead of just 1.
So at level 5, they can pull this off.
Action - 2 unarmed Strikes
Extra Attack - 2 Unarmed Strikes
Bonus Action - 1 Unarmed Strike
Or
Bonus Action - Flurry of Blows - 2 Unarmed Strikes.
Making a Possible Minimum of 5 unarmed strikes, maximum of 6
This can get to be a lot if they get haste cast on them a lot, but it still just keeps them up with things like the Barbarian, since monks can't tank very well, i figured they should at least deal a little more damage.
My justification for this is Martial Artists are typically faster when atracking than say an average street brawler or bandit.
I think that sounds like a decent enough solution to your issue but I think it might be easier to just give monks a better martial arts die (to increase damage) and more ki points (so they can do their cool stuff more often). Either way, I get what you're looking to do here and it seems like a cool idea!
I’m just gonna say Kensei with a blowgun! Up to 1d10 + 1d4 + DEX without poison! Sure it’s not optimal (monks sadly aren’t ever) but it’s one hell of a surprise
That blows!! 😜😂
Kidding of course! Seems like a cool idea!
I'm looking forward to Bards, my favorite class
It’s one of mine as well! Still, trying not to be too biased as I post polls and work my way through haha
I've played a aasimar Way of the Open Hand monk for several years now and while I can't speak for others at no time did Jugs ever seem underpowered compared to the other PCs, who BTW were a banneret Fighter,Forge cleric, Moon Druid,Oath of Vengeance Paladin and a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer. Maybe I was just lucky but that's been my experience.
This has been my experience as well with the Monk. People don't give enough credit to the class at common tiers of play and the disparity between relative power levels of each class is a lot smaller than people seem to think.
Hey Chaos.
Coming back to this vid to share my 1st optimized monk build. Had a friend who challenged me to create an optimized monk for his next campaign as he wants to see what i could do with it as he hears me crap on the monk alot. in fact, alot would be an understatement. He said it had to be a "monk", meaning monk should have the most class levels and shouldn't be using weapons or spells as its core tactic. So no gunks. He also said i can't use what are considered the best monk subclasses in shadow, kensei and mercy nor rely on any magic items.
He also said that if it's a striker, it should typically pass the baselines i set for my striker builds (like a burst striker should at least burst for 80+ dmg at level 10 to be considered viable).
So i started looking at the popularly trashed monks and i settled on sun soul. Most people considered this or the 4E monk as the worst monk. I was attracted to the idea of making an evil ryu/akuma character who could launch a lot of hadoken. level 10 theorycraft as always:
"SHINKU...HADOKEN"
fighter 2, sun soul 5, gloomstalker 3
bugbear
asi: +1 dex, +1 con (skill expert-dex is viable too)
fighting style: superior technique (ambush), druidic warrior (guidance, control flames)
dedicated weapon: shortbow
key spells: goodberry, guidance
role: burst striker/infiltrator
tactics:
pre-combat:
use any leftover spell slots to cast goodberry then long rest. keep to the shadows/darkness while adventuring to maintain umbral sight, turning off flames from a distance via control flames. spam guidance for initiative. use ambush as necessary.
1st turn:
if there's an area of darkness/dark shadow within 30 ft of your target, move within 30 ft
action: radiant sun bolt x2 + shorbow x1 with advantage (use focused aim as needed)
action surge: radiant sun bolt x2 + shortbow x1 with advantage (use favored foe)
bonus action: radiant sun bolt x2 with advantage
if there's no area of darkness/dark shadow within 30 ft of your target or low on ki, move to an area of darkness/dark shadow within 80 of your target
bonus action: hunter's mark
action: shortbow x3 with advantage (use focused aim as needed)
action surge: shortbow x3 with advantage
reaction: absorb elements/deflect missiles as needed
2nd turn onwards:
action: radiant sun bolt/shortbow x2 with advantage
bonus action: ki-fueled attack/martial arts if applicable
Turn 1 dmg report assuming radiant sun bolt is used:
6d6 (RSB) + 2d6 (SB) + 32 (dex) + 16d6 (bugbear) + 1d4 (FF) + 2d8 (DA)= 127.5
so wow. not only do we make my baseline, but a monk breaks the century mark by a comfortable margin at level 10. This almost one-shots an aboleth as mainly a monk on turn 1. I don't think it's quite often we see a monk do over 100 dmg in a turn while not using weapons even at high levels. my friend was happy with this. he also likes street fighter.
so yeah, in the spirit of your "broken" video series, i agree that even classes or subclasses which are considered the worst by the community, there's potential to make them powerful and viable with the right build. Feel free to share your thoughts/ask questions. :)
I'm not usually a fan of sun soul but I really like what you've done here! Thanks for sharing, Rob!
@@ConstructedChaos not a fan either of sun souls or of monks but i wanted to help out a friend and challenge myself. haha.
but yeah thought i'd share here in case people looking for effective monk builds are able to see it.
Group was being attacked by a Rok, I tried to cast blindness on it to make the fight easier, apparently the things WIS is pretty high, our Monk manages to stab it, hold on to the dagger, put a dart in its head, and cast Darkness on the dart effectively blinding it in like two moves!
I've literally had entire combats where the party monk stole my turns while the party beat me down. So nasty when it works haha.
As someone who is getting into his first session as of tomorrow, I am wondering is it possible to create a ninja type character with the Kensei subclass?
yes. but are you concerned with power and performance? just a word of warning ahead of time that the monk is the weakest class in the game. this concept is better done with other classes or at least multiclassing a monk.
i do understand you're new though so multiclassing might be complicated for you now. i could theorycraft a "ninja" kensei for you if you want. the shadow monk is also another subclass you could do this with if you're interested in other monk subclasses.
@@TheRobversion1 I've looked at Way of the Shadow and honestly? I... don't like that interpretation of the ninja as I want to play something that doesn't really rely on casting even with Ki.
I'm wanting to try and have a ninja that's more grounded, something that's closer to the Iga and Koga ninjas of Feudal Japan, even if Ki is still involved. I'd think that a Kensei ninja is possible if feats like Skulker, Stealthy, Poisoner, Actor and Performer are put into such a build.
@@TheRobversion1 It was recommended to me by my DM that I stick with one class and sub-class to better understand the mechanics of the game. I hear that monks are generally one of the weaker classes but I figure I might as well be the judge of that from my own personal experiences with it.
I've looked into the Way of the Shadow monk and I personally don't like that one's interpretation for ninjas. It doesn't feel ninja to me, and seems to rely more on shadows and teleportation than something definitively ninja. I want to have something that's more grounded and closer to the historical ninjas of the Iga and Koga clans of Japan, rather than something that's built off a stereotypical pop-culture depiction of a ninja.
So with that in mind, wouldn't it be possible to build a Ninja Kensei by giving the build the stealthy, skulker, poisoner, actor and performer feats?
@@RakaiThwei yes for someone new, it's better to start with a pure class to understand mechanics. one tip i'll give though is that don't let the traditional lore/flavor/text/theme of the class influence you in picking that class. anything in the game can be re-flavored. as you already suggested, picking certain options like feats can define the character more. you can make a ninja monk, ninja fighter, ninja ranger (in fact i'd say that a subclass here is the best at realizing the mechanics in my opinion), ninja rogue, ninja warlock, etc. the key is to look at all the classes/abilities and find which abilities allow you to execute your concept.
so noted, you don't want something magical supported ninja but something that's more skil based/non-magical. are you only concerned about the stealth aspect of the ninja and poison? how about actual combat? why did you pick the actor feat? that doesn't feel "ninja-y" to me.
heads up as well on poisoner. this is a bad feat because poison is the worst dmg type and condition in the game. many enemies are immune to poison dmg (which poisoner doesn't help with funnily) and the poisoned condition. there's no way to optimize anything poison related.
i think best to describe here what you want the ninja to do in combat, during exploration (aside from stealthing around) and during social encounters.
@@TheRobversion1 Well right now, the idea is to more or less recreate something that's not the stereotypical pop-culture ninja but rather something more closer to the historical Iga and Koga clans of Japan but with something of an edge to it of course. So I was thinking maybe Kensei would work as it allows some use of the Ki based abilities and allows for use of weapons which ninjas, especially real life ninjas have to know how to use as it's part of their eighteen paths in being shinobi. Stealth is definitely something which needs to be played up, especially skulking as well because I don't feel like Kensei has this where as Way of the Shadow does, but to a much greatly exaggerated level (I do like the ability to move through Shadows, and I can flavor that to having the ninja moving at speeds in darkness to make it seem like they're teleporting-- see Raizo vs Ozunu from Ninja Assassin to see what I mean). But I don't particularly like the use of Ki to cast darkness, dark vision, silence, etc.... To me that just... doesn't make sense.
So, stealth is factor and I figure I can cover that with Stealthy from Unearthed Arcana and Skulker from Players Handbook... So there we go for covering stealth. No problem. As for the actor feat, there's a reason for that. Historical ninjas DID NOT wear black and run around in the shadows, they hid in plain sight. They were either disguised as merchants, farmers, entertainers, courtesans, guards, and in the case of Kunoichi (female ninjas), they went in as either Geisha or Oiran to get close to their targets or to acquire information. So actor and performer feats would be used for infiltration if the situation comes to it.
way of mercy monk is my favorite. Always wanted to be the plague doctor
And the added "let me put you out of your misery" flavor is just icing on the cake!
Just did my stat rolls and race everything for level 1 monk hareagon 14 str, 20 dex, 18 con, 15 int, 18 wis and cha 17 haven't played in along time and he told me for now on I need to roll 50 times before the campaign lmao
Holy crap those are some god tier stats for level 1!
@@ConstructedChaos starting our first adventure today hope it goes well.
@@walterfrank5547 Hell yeah! I'm sure it will, friend! Good luck!
I am going to use... Oh that's right, I can't because I'm out of KI... Used my last point for simply breathing because monk's can't do ANYTHING without expending KI...
Haha! Sounds like you need half a short rest. AKA take a breather!
Counter point: they are not and all their subclasses are surpassed by most mid to top subclasses of the other classes. They only appear broken in one on one combat. And usually only if they get to go first.
Counter counter point: I disagree but you are welcome to your opinion haha.
Broken like it doesn't work right consistently, sounds right?
Nope! Broken as in it’s perfectly viable as a character option in 5E and definitely not as terrible as everyone makes it sound!
I saw someone talking about starting your Monk as a level 1 rogue to get a dash that doesn't require Ki. Now that sounds broken
Monk level 1-4, fantastic striker
monk level 5 to 13, bad at everything. But with a potentially busted stunning strike technique.
Monk level 14 to 17, decent tank, harasser with stunning strike pressure.
Monk level 18 to 20, Busted tank you can't run from who will slowly pummel you to death
So with that said.
Just go play a fucking rogue.
Hahaha nice. I do think that’s a decent assessment and rogue is pretty busted a lot of the time. But monk is totally viable and fun to play too! Characters don’t always need to be min/max combat damage dealers-at least that’s my philosophy!
I am wanting to play a tabaxi assassin that considers themselves as the god of life and death (nothing dies unless they allow it). I know that monk is going to be a main branch of focus but I am unsure whether I want to go path of life or path of shadows. I know I want them to be able to heal but I also want some kind of teleportation. The shadow walk will suffice for teleportation but that is mainly why I would go that way. What path would you recommend, and if path of life how would one suggest I gain teleportation
Honestly, when reading your presentation of this idea, I thought mercy monk would fit this pretty perfectly! You could always take a feat like fey touched for misty step or something similar. There are even late-game monk abilities that allow you to become invisible and you could even flavor that as a type of teleportation?
Agreed with chaos here. i'd go mercy monk if that's your concept and just use a feat/multiclassing to gain teleportation should you want it. monks though are one of the classes that needs teleportation the least due to their increased movement and ability to disengage easily. you may want to consider multiclassing into a class that allows you to cast revivify to support your concept.
The 4 element monk sucks, the elemental bender NPC should be a base. As a DM I hate stunning strike, but it just means I need to be more thoughtful on my encounters. Flyby, swarms, etc. It isn’t cheap just think.
I can definitely agree with you on 4 elements. The abilities are just way too expensive when you compare it with other “spellcasters”.
As for building encounters around stunning strike, I’ll do this occasionally but doing it every time isn’t going to be fair to your player. Stunning strike should have a chance to go off.
What about chaos alignment monk?
I wanna be a Barb/monk that is just a really good brawler. No technique, just going up to mercilessly beat opponents down, always searching for a stronger opponent; always searching for the next joyous combat.
That sounds like a lot of fun-especially since both monk and barbarian tend to be a bit front loaded classes. As far as monk subclass, way of the open hand or way of the drunken master might be good picks for that!
Just keep in mind that Barb requires a Strength of 13 to multiclass and monk requires a 13 in dex and wisdom respectively!
Once you’ve attained that, you could probably lean into your strength score for your attacks but your AC may suffer a bit too.
Either way, don’t let that deter you! Once you’ve got it all figured out, it’ll be a good time to play with!
Sounds like a good candidate for Drunken Master.
Way of the Mercy can contribute to teammates well and Shadow Monk, if you can haggle DM for either Blind Sight or Devil Sight, it might work.
The others.... I have right to remain silent.
Just one more thing: Magical Armor and Shield definately happens and Monks cannot enjoy most of them.
I still can see this video is well pit together.
Thanks for the insight!! I think it would make sense to grant blindsight to a Shadow monk. I probably would as a DM!
@@ConstructedChaos It is quite a slap in the face that Shadow Monks cannot see through their own Darkness spell.
In our main campaign our dm had a thing that granted us a minor wish at level 3. I was a shadow monk and was the one that got to make the wish as I rolled very well on an insight check. I talked to the dm and got our group "the eyes of my ansestors" (I'm a tiefling). He gave us devils sight but limited (think it was halved until level 6 or so) and I think thats fair because one or two members having low level devils sight it fine, a party needs nurffed, especially when we have 3 out of 7 characters that can cast darkness and I have a dart enchanted with darkness spell so 4 darkness spells in total. All having advantage in darkness and whatnot gets pretty broken.
@@jamessberna1330 That's a cool implementation of a party buff! I'd love to know more about the context that allowed that to happen within the story of the campaign! Thanks for sharing!
@@ConstructedChaos basically we were all "chosen by gods" and magic crystals teleported us to an air-ship/city that was ran by a god of time. We had some down time to explore the area and the dm put one of those old gypsy in a box fortune teller things (he said he got the idea from critical roll I believe) in the way of our rogue but he kept rolling low on any kind of check to see what it was about. It seemed to show up around every turn and was annoying him. He got to roll history, insight, investigation, arcana, perception, survival, and a few other ones and even had advantage on a few but couldn't roll above a 5 and even with his modifiers couldn't get high enough. It was very funny to watch. He eventually got the rest of us and I gave it a go. First with an investigation and rolled a 19, insight and rolled a mod 20, arcana nat 20, and perception a mod 19. The skill check to figure out what it did and how to activate it was 15 or 16 I think. I found an inscription on it that said how to activate it, a warning that I needed to be exact, and what it did. I talked to the dm about it out of game and he agreed to give the group devils sight if I could come up with a good enough wording for it, but he said that it would be nerffed because he didn't want us to just go around in darkness and murder hobo everything. Seeing as we were only level 3 at the time and we had 3 darkness casters (I didn't have my dart yet). So in game I rolled a nat 20 on performance to activate it and asked it "I would like for those chosen by the gods, to stop the mad king, to have the eyes of my ansestors". Out of game he told me that if I rolled a 5 or lower it wouldn't activate, a 6-19 I would have to be exact on my wording, and a 20 it would grant us the sight nomatter how it was worded. He thought it would have been funny if I rolled a 6-19 and had thousands of demon eyes start falling into the room but lucky for me it was a nat 20.
We are now level 7 about to be 8 and honestly used the darkness a handfull of times so we didn't abuse the power gifted to us by our dm. We are starting to face things that have devils sight now too so it wouldn't be that abusive now anyway. Shortly after he granted us with the devils sight we got to the first real town and there was an enchanter so I figured I would save some ki by asking for a dart I had to be enchanted with darkness. I keep it in a spell scroll tube (stole the idea from youtube tho I can't remember who to give credit).
the sad thing is even though i know monks are under powered i will still play them if i ever get back into dnd and when i do what ever dm i'm playing with is going to buff the shit out of me just so i can keep up with the others
That doesn’t sound so sad to me! It sounds like you know how to enjoy the game! 😊
As a martial artist, I love playing the monk because I can roll play and even act out some of my moves as I react to combat 🤣
That’s pretty cool! I bet you’d have a ton of realistic insight as to how it all plays out!
My thing against the monk are:
1 - Is the only class that has a cultural archetype attached. There aren't many examples of martial monks outside of the Far East, and the class doesn't allow you to play a boxer, a pugilist, a wrestler or similar (the barbarian and the fighter are even better at this, as they are based on strength and constitution).
2 - The class doesn't do what it promises you, and punishes you for trying, by relying on Ki for everything, from attack to movement.
3 - The class doesn't bring anything new to the table that another class can't do better one way or another.
I disagree with most of this but not all. Namely, I think that ki points are necessary for the monk not to run amok (funny play on words so it must be true). I also think ki mechanics have an undeserved bad reputation-after all, everyone love’s the warlock’s limited spell slots that come back on a short rest.
The other point I disagree with is that the monk doesn’t bring anything unique. I think that their battlefield maneuverability and control prowess in one-on-one combat. Is that always effective? No, and it shouldn’t be.
@@ConstructedChaos Warlock may have this mechanic, but back of it there's a ton of interesting options on the Invocations, and you even get a fairly decent spell list. Far more than the poor monk got.
For maneuverability and martial control, you can get any martial class to do the same thing, some even better.
Grapple? Barbarian got fury. Toss people around? Let the fighter handle it. Hit-and-run? This is the whole rogue thing.
And these classes got it free, don't even need to pick an archetype to do it.
Monk is a sloppy class, and in my games, I personally recommend my players to not play with it. If you want a light fighter with a lot of shinnanigans and tricks, either rogue or bard can serve you way better. Want a fist fight master? Barbarian, fighter or ranger for you.
@@obliviouslich1722 You’ve listed lots of examples that do what the monk does on an individual feature basis but none that do it all. Monk is the class for that. Plenty of people in the comments would agree that monk is perfectly playable alongside other classes and it’s this whole mentality that certain classes aren’t even worth considering that made me want to create this video series in the first place.
Monk is awesome if you play the gritty rules for rest. Where 8 hours is a short rest and a week is a long rest.
Oh man that sounds so fun actually!
how does it come that everyone talks about drunken master and stuff but there are only 3 subclasses in the handbook
The other subclasses are available in other sourcebooks like Xanathar's Guide to Everything and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything!
Monks are definitely on the weaker side. What if Monks could spend a hit die once per round of combat that also re-coups 1 ki point?
That’s definitely an interesting proposal! My favorite one is just to give them 2x ki points, however.
Way of the Soul knife is amazing!
I would rebalanced stunning strike ti lower the dc but add 1 martial die to the damage of the attack. That way, it doesn't control the enemy as often but is a worthwhile way to add damage if you shouldn't succeed to stun the enemy.
I think many would argue that even just adding the damage without lowering the DC would be worthwhile. However, I think if I were to give the monk a boost, I'd leave stunning strike as is and focus on some of the other abilities--namely the amount of ki the monk gets and the amount of damage they do with their unarmed strikes in general.
This is why Monk's & warlocks Multiclass so well together green cause they both pretty much get all their abilities back on short rest.
Both classes most underrated features by far! 😎
I've looked hard and have found very few results. May I ask what are your opinions are on a Shadow Monk/ Assassin Rogue build? Most have said go heavy Rogue and dip in Monk. It seems to be a 12/8 split either way, but when I came up with this character I was planning heavy Monk. so I guess I'm asking what would you suggest for a Tabaxi raised as a Monk, discovered his ancestors were Rogues, and is CG... for now... lmao
Realistically, the two classes (and subclasses) tend to play pretty well together. I'd agree with a lot of the advice you've received thus far and say that more levels in rogue would most likely result in a more powerful character.
I think going 12/8 makes a lot of sense (because the shadow monk's invisibility feature is just going to eat your action for advantage on a single attack). That feature can be worth it if you're planning things out a lot but it's just not worth sinking extra levels into it in my opinion.
The only real downsides here are that your monk's martial arts die would be stuck at a d6, and you'll have some pretty limited ki--even at the crux of your build.
But, I'd also consider dipping a third class here... Taking fighter for action surge as well as blind fighting, second wind, and a couple levels of a better hit die! It's likely going to cause you to miss out on an ASI/feat but that bit extra is really going to help you nova on turn 1 with action surge. That'll more than make up for any lack of martial arts die and ki points.
That said, this is all just a surface level glance. Feel free to offer any counterpoints as to why you'd rather not do any of this haha.
@@ConstructedChaos that was really well put and I appreciate you taking the time to give your input. I will certainly look into the benefits of dipping into fighter as well!
@@CPUplayer1 happy to help in any way that I can!
Agreed with Chaos that dipping fighter 2 will help improve the build. I agree and disagree partially with the opinions you've been given and i'll share my inputs below which will focus on optimization:
1. rogues and monks generally don't mix together well as both have abilities that work better if main classed. furthermore, their attack style may be similar (skirmishers) but also drastically different. rogues want to be one-hit strikers. monks are multi-attackers. Their difference is more relevant.
2. from what you've read, they are partially correct that more of rogue is better but what i'd like to add is what is implied here is less of monk is better. meaning 0 monk levels is the most optimal. this means if you're going to have monk in a build, they better be the main class or not be included at all. there's no middle ground if you're concerned about performance as monks make bad dip classes/multiclasses.
3. As mentioned in #1, rogues are generally better as main classes but there's a couple of exceptions. one of those is indeed the assassin which works best on a multiattacker which the monk is. so if you're going to dip rogue, assassin is indeed one of the ways to go. so yes going monk + assassin is fine as long as you have monk as the main class with only 3 levels of assassin. notice i didnt mention shadow. i'll get to that later. so i'd advise against the 12/8 split and consider fighter levels as a tertiary class as Chaos mentioned and perhaps adding a couple more monk levels for diamond soul. like a 14/3/3 split. though keep in mind its always better to theorycraft a build with the expected ending levels of your campaign in mind as theorycrafting for 20 is pointless if your campaign is ending at level 10-15.
4. assassin works off of surprise. this is harder to achieve on a melee character, especially in latter tiers when enemies have blindsight/tremorsense. so assassin doesn't generally work well with most monks as they tend to initiate combat from melee. there's also a "perception radius" for creatures as indicated in the phb. an ambusher like an assassin wants to avoid this perception radius as much as possible. so ranged is the way to go. there are only 2 ranged options for a monk: sun soul or kensei while using ranged weapons. so i'd recommend either if you plan to go assassin.
5. if shadow monk is the core of the build, then I'd consider not using assassin and using another rogue dip or removing rogue entirely. for multiattacking, the best core in the game is fighter 2 + gloomstalker 3. you'd be better served adding those 2 instead to your shadow monk base if you're maining the shadow monk.
6. if you are interested in ideas for a ranged monk, i've recently posted a comment here of a sun soul monk build that you can check out.
I hope, even with all this OGL stuff going on, that you continue with these classes are broken series!!!
I was definitely planning to before and it's full steam ahead now that they've walked everything back!!
@@ConstructedChaos Sweetness 😍
i made a goliath monk, seems perfect but nobody talks about it
Goliaths are a really fun race in general! I played a goliath bard once and had a great time. A goliath monk seems great too, though!
imo a 'broken' monk requires a 1 level dip into War domain cleric. ;-)
Divine Favour, Shield of Faith, and martial weapon proficiencies (for dedicating a versatile, martial weapon) are gold. War Priest is also nice for when you've burned through your Ki (or you're playing a Kensai archer) and scales with your Wisdom.
Oooooo I like that! Sounds like a fun build!
Mercy monks beat you up to heal wtf, players run from Mercy Monk after they get tired of getting beat up to get healed
Haha they're one of the best monks mechanically and the flavor is absolutely top notch too. I absolutely love them!
I started with 2 levels in hexblade warlock to get Hex on short rest, crit on a 19 and proficiency on martial weapons. With point buy and custom linage and taking Dex resilience I get 18 Dex and 16 wis and 14 con. As invocations I take perma mage armor and darkvision to 120ft. Now I take monk levels with a base AC14+wis+Dex=21AC and yes I am going to get bracers of defense as soon as possible for a 23 AC. I now take monk levels in either mercy or kensai. The later gives me another 2ac for 25. The former gives me free healing. As damage I get 3 attacks per round using Dex and a longsword for 3d8+16 damage and a other 3d6 with Hex for average 49 damage and the mob has disadvantage to resist my stuns. Once I get multiattack, add another 1d8+1d6+4 of damage for average 62 damage per round. Not to mention I crit on a 19/20. This is without spending any Ki for bonus damage.
I don't believe you'd be allowed to stack mage armor AC and your unarmored defense calculation. You can only use one AC calculation at a time.
@@ConstructedChaos you can. Page 5 in Xanathar, "Different game effects can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to AC but when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them applies." You can't stack worn armor with the ability. Mage armor isn't worn and doesn't provide armor, it just raises base AC from 10 to 13. So base AC is 13 instead of 10. The monk ability adds wis +Dex to base AC. Works with the same ability with blade dancer. You can also use bracers of defense since you aren't wearing armor. The ability says you can add your wis to AC as long as your not wearing armor. You don't wear spells.
So...if you just replace your entire monk portion of your build with probably any other martial, you'd get far more consistency and utility and damage overall. hex is not a good spell unless you cast it preemptively before combat begins. Taking a bonus action and spell slot or oplr feature to do so is so inefficient as it is, but on a Monk it physically pains me to think about it.
@@apollosungod6673 Hex is a bonus action to cast, and can be transferred without recasting during its hour long duration. A 2nd level Warlock can keep it up for 2 hours and can get it back on a short rest.
Yes, you will lose the free unarmed strike in the first round, but your main attack will get another 2d6 to damage which more than makes up for it. Not to mention giving disadvantage to a savings throw really helps the party.
On the second round, the mob now has disadvantage against Stunning Strike, and if you use furry of blows, you add another 4d6 damage. 3d6 without it.
What makes Monk so awesome with Hex is it makes Stunning Strike much more serviceable and the Monk can get up to 4 attacks per round, making the Hex damage much better than other martial classes.
Another great benefit of the monk/warlock is both classes resource replenish on a short rest, making them very complimentary.
I am play testing it now, and the only real draw back is that I have way too many bonus actions. I am only level 5 now, and don't have multi-attack yet, so I am not getting the full effect, but the extra 1d6 when I cast Hex is nearly as good as my 1d4 unarmed bonus strike. My damage is pretty consistent, and I don't have much reason to use Ki at all. My party of casters really likes my Hex ability.
I am currently Kensai, and the extra AC is nice and the range attack is good too, but I am finding Kensai doesn't give me much utility or use for Ki. I plan to rewrite with Mercy, for the extra Ki options.
Once I hit level 7, with my staff damage is:
Staff: 2d8+10(dex) + 2d6(Hex)
Fist: 1d6+5(dex) + 1d6 (Hex)
Disadvantage of Con
With Furry of blows, Add another 1d6+5+1d6
I am certainly doing more damage than a Rogue of the same level.
@@jaysw9585 how does hex make stunning strike more serviceable? Saving throws are not ability checks, so the hex clause does not apply. I can guarantee you my rogue is doing more damage at the same level. But from a range. And they hit more often. And they don't need a resource to do it. And they have advantage on every attack. Lmfao
Shadow monks should have been spellcasters like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knigh but used Variant rule for spell casting where you use Ki to cast spells and you have x2 Ki. 6 points at lvl 3 where lvl 1 spell is 2 ki 😂
I'd be all for it! But, seeing how they failed at doing something similar with the way of four elements I think they would have done it a disservice haha. Seems like they're doing better with the newer playtest stuff though!
@@ConstructedChaos all that would happen at lvl 3 you have 6 ki points, cantrips and lvl 1 spells that Costa 2 ki to cast. You know 2 cantrips and 3 lvl 1 spells from new spell list. Expan bit more spells from 4 we already got.
I would also make Shadow Step lvl 3 ability to teleport from shadow to shadow equal to your movement speed.
At level 6 shadow step now gives advantage on your attackS.
Lvl 17 when you use Shadow Step you can use Flurry of Blows.
The idea is if you are hasted that doubles your teleport range but you must be able to see where you teleport so it is limited by your dark vision at night 😉 but torch gives Dim Light which you can use. Also currently Shadow Step is loss of dps, just use Flurry of Blows.
Also if you chance lvl 2 ki to be free as Cunning Action and combine Flurry of Blows as without ki in to Martial Arts your only worry is 2x stunning strikes!
At this point I might as well do my own homebrew fix to Monk and add way of four elements and Way of open hand to this ❤️ so many ideas for tiny fixes.
@@ConstructedChaos Actually it would be really easy to come up with solid subclass rework and then to test it.
Here is my idea:
Way of Four Elements
-You are prepared castest with Ritual Casting.
-At lvl 3 they unlock three Cantrips and extra one at the same level they can cast higher spells.
-At lvl 3 they unlock first level spells.
-At lvl 5 they unlock second level spells.
-At lvl 9 they unlock third level spells.
-At lvl 13 they unlock fourth level spells.
-At lvl 17 they unlock fifth level spells.
-They get three times more Ki points. (at lvl 20 they will have 60 ki points.)
(Now just fill spell list of spells for them.)
-at level 3 they get Fist of Elements which allows them to chance the damage type of unarmed strikes to Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning and they can use Ki points equal to their proficiency bonus to increase the Range of the attack equal to half of your momvement speed for each ki spend.
Way of the Shadow
-You have "Spells Known"
-At lvl 3 they unlock 1 cantrip + Minor Illusion unless if they have it then another cantrip.
-At lvl 3 they unlock first level spells.
-At lvl 7 they unlock second level spells.
-At lvl 13 they unlock third level spells.
-At lvl 19 they unlock fourth level spells.
-They get two times more Ki points. (at lvl 20 they will have 40 Ki points.)
(Now just fill spell list of spells for them.)
-At lvl 3 they also get 60ft Darkvision
-At lvl 3 Shadow Step which now is limited to range of your speed.
-At lvl 6 you get Improved Darkvision 120 and you can see in darkness spell casted by yourself.
-At lvl 6 you get improved Shadow Step if you spend 1 ki you can use Flurry of Blows before or after using Shadow Step.
-At lvl 11 you get the same invisibility.
-At lvl 17 when you use Shadow Step all your attacks until start of your next turn have Advantage including if you spend ki for Flurry of Blows before using Shadow Step.
Of couse this means Way of the Open Hand would be too weak in compersation (in my opinion) so...
Way of the Open Hand
-At lvl 3 you get improved unarmored defense which raises your AC 10 + Dex and Wis mod + Proficiency.
-At lvl 3 your Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense and Step of the Wind don't cost Ki.
-At lvl 6 you gain extra healt equal to two times of your Monk level.
-At lvl 6 if you use one ki you can take two different actions of Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. (This would allow you to Dash and Disengage as Bonus Action or Dodge and Flurry of Blows or even Dash and Flurry of Blows making Monk super mobile.)
-At lvl 11 your Flurry of Blows can attack now three times.
-At lvl 17 your Flurry of Blows can attack now four times. (yes, I just want to punch the BBEG six times while also dodging)
Now, question is, would these be too strong? You can easily balance the power of spells and how much they can cast them by adjusting the spell cost and amount Ki they get. Way of the Open Hand should get more hp, better AC and free Flurry of Blows to make it solid base. Shadow Monk gets less spells and should be more supportive spells (no dmg spells) but in return they gain dark vision and shadow step which later allows them to use flurry of blows if they wish to. Improved Darkvision allowing them to see on their own darkness is interesting idea to give them Devil's Sight without making you see as normal or in other words they still can't see Gloom Stalker.
The Variant Rule suggest Spell Cost as following:
1st 2
2nd 3
3rd 5
4th 6
5th 7
I would make them bit higher:
1st 2
2nd 4
3rd 6
4th 8
5th 10
But this is literally just balance question. I would allow Four elements to drop four lvl 5 spells while Ranger/Paladin can do so only two times but they can also cast 1st lvl spell total of 15 times while four elements could do the same for 30 times thus we ask the question what is fair balance? You could set the cost bit higher or lower.
I think it should be clearly defined that this is indeed Spellcasting (so you could take Eldritch Adept) but you use your Ki to cast the spells where you have the spell list and cost of spells and what level you unlock them. Instead of Slots it just shows at level X you can cast Y level spells which cost Z amount and you have 2x Ki or 3x Ki.
The hardest part is to pick up a proper good valid spell casting.
Like do you give Message Cantrip for Way of the Shadow? Perhaps Firiends cantrip? How about Comand spell?
Now in case you would complain that I would be removing some Four elements moves that is true like Water Whip but you could just make them spells.
The problem with 5e Monks is that thematically they are awesome. But mechanically they aren't, often times they are extremely limited in design as to what you can do and how many times you can do it. And to make matters worse, subclasses rarely add anything to the class. A class so flavored as to perfection, martial arts and freedom, is antithetical that it feels so restricted and uninspired mechanically.
The fighter, often times, mechanically is more like a monk than the monk. The battle master maneuvers alone, feels more like a martial arts master than any monk you could ever build. It is funny, how the best damage dealer, that is also the most versatile martial class, has also the best and most varied subclasses out of all the martial classes. While the monk has the worst and least varied subclasses out of all the martial classes. If you want to play a monk, it is only for the flavor, but if you really want to play a monk, I suggest multiclassing into battle master. The maneuvers alone, will make you feel like a martial arts master more than any monk could ever hope for.
Now, I am not saying the class as a whole is bad... I am just saying that the class gives you little to no variety of gameplay nor options. You could have an all-monks party, each making different builds and they would all be basically the same character. Unlike, all the other classes.
Also, it gives you no variety in combat at all, you will go in attack flurry of blows and or stunning strike and that is it. For a class that is all about martial arts, you get to do no martial arts at all.
You definitely raise some valid concerns here but the actual power of the monk is quite ridiculous around levels 5-7. That said, I think you'll be happy with the proposed revisions for OneDND. I like what I've seen so far in the playtest material.