Dr Kat and Lady/Queen Jane Grey
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- I've been thinking more about "right to rule" and monarchical authority over the last couple of weeks, which has led me to today's topic. Why is Jane Grey most commonly referred to as "Lady" rather than "Queen"? What can we learn about this from looking at her life, reign and fall?
I hope you enjoy this video and find it interesting!
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Intro / Outro song: Silent Partner, "Greenery" [ • Greenery - Silent Part... ]
Images (from Wikimedia Commons, unless otherwise stated):
Portrait of Lady Jane Grey by an unknown artist (c. 1590-1600). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon attributed to Jan Gossaert (c.1516). Held in the collection of the Earl of Yarborough; Brocklesby Park, Lincolnshire.
Portrait of Lady Katherine Grey and her son Edward Seymour, Lord Beauchamp of Hache by an unknown artist (c. 1562). Location unknown.
Portrait of Lady Mary Grey attributed to Hans Eworth (1571). Held at Chequers.
Portrait of Elizabeth I before becoming Queen, formerly attributed to William Scrots (c.1546). Held by the Royal Collection at Windsor Castle.
Full-length portrait of Katherine Parr attributed to Master John (circa 1545). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Thomas Seymour, 1st Baron Seymour of Sudeley by Nicholas Denizot (c.1545-1549). Held by the National Maritime Museum.
Portrait of Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford by an unknown artist (16th century). Held in the collection of Marquess of Bath, Longleat House, Wiltshire.
Portrait of Edward VI of England by an unknown artist, the circle of William Scrots (mid-sixteenth century). Held in a private collection, location unknown.
Portrait of John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland by an unknown artist (between 1605 and 1608). Held by the National Trust.
Edward VI and the Pope: An Allegory of the Reformation by an unknown artist (c.1547 -1570s). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Mary I of England by Hans Eworth (1554). Held by the Society of Antiquaries of London.
Lord Guildford Dudley, husband of Lady Jane Grey. Painted in the 19th century as part of a series. Held by the Houses of Parliament.
Edward VI's "devise for the succession", 1553, written in his own hand. (Inner Temple, Petyt MS 538, vol. 47 fo. 317.)
“The Crown Offered to Lady Jane Grey”. Engraving after Romantic-era painter Charles Robert Leslie (c.1827).
Portrait of Queen Mary I of England by Antonis Mor (1554). Held by the Museo del Prado.
Portrait of Sir Thomas Wyatt the Younger by Hans Holbein the Younger (c.1540-2). Held by The Weiss Gallery, London.
Portrait of King Philip II of Spain and his second wife Queen Mary I of England by Hans Eworth (1558). Held by Woburn Abbey.
“The Execution of Lady Jane Grey” by Paul Delaroche (1833). Held by the National Gallery.
Quoted texts:
Alison Plowden, "Grey [married name Dudley], Lady Jane (1537-1554), noblewoman and claimant to the English throne." Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. 23 Sep. 2004.
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P.S. Dr. Kat, Yes please re: Lady Katherine.
Yes! Yes! I love the way you do take note of our suggestions and enthusiasms. Thank you.
Yes please!!!
Please yes. X
Agreed
Yes please!
Gosh, many of the men discussed in this video...are really awful!
I've had it up to HERE with Thomas Seymour! 😤
Totally agree. Thomas was a revolting person. So was Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex, executed in 1601 for his rebellion against Elizabeth.
You and me both. And he was supposed to be drop-dead gorgeous? I don’t think so.
It must have been heart breaking seeing her trying to find the place to lay her head for the final time. She died so bravely, for one so young.
@@elizabethwoolnough4358 And Jane's own grandfather Charles Brandon who married and impregnated a 14 year old girl months after his wife Mary's death.
(Not to mention abandoning the mother of his first child to marry her rich widow aunt, just to get his hands on her cash, annul the marriage, and return to her niece!)
I have always been very upset by Jane's execution. She was basically a child who was manipulated by her parents and other power hungry men. It is sad that at 16 years of age her life was wasted.
Jane and Guildford were brutally put to death by Bloody Mary. They were among the first victims of the tyrant Queen.
@@davidlogan4329 Her father was also executed. If he hadn't rallied some men to try to put her back on the throne, Mary might have eventually released her.
Lady Jane Grey absolutely breaks my heart. There's no doubt in my mind that she would have gladly gone away quietly and just lived out the rest of her life in peace. I have no doubt that Mary knew it too and that's why she wanted to spare her. I actually appreciate seeing Mary in a much more human light now that I'm older. Most shows and movies around the Tudors just focus the struggle between her and Anne Boleyn. It's so refreshing to know she was very empathetic with Jane and friends with Anne of Cleves. I'm not saying Mary is a great person, but more often than not she's portrayed as a villain with no humanity.
Look at all the traumas she went through in her life. I've always had a soft spot for Mary because she was such a tragic figure.
Mary is flawed, but I don't think she's really worse than anyone else. If anything, she's a lot kinder than she's given credit for. She had pressures forced upon her that no one should have, and that was after being stripped of her mother and neglected and mistreated in so many ways. Yes, she had heretics burned, but she did so believing that they would turn to god in their deaths. Not that it's okay (I'm a devout atheist...I'd have been burned), but her reasons were at least to try to do good, not just because she got a bug up her ass and wanted revenge like her dad did. Even Elizabeth wasn't innocent there. If anything, Mary showed a lot of compassion and hesitancy to have anyone executed. I don't think anyone would have blamed her for executing get sister since the next in line would have been their cousin James, and the people plotting against her in favor of Elizabeth likely wouldn't have done so for a foreign king. But she couldn't make herself do it. And I don't think she'd have signed fo Jane Grey if she hadn't felt forced.
So true! Well said!! Hopefully there will be more light shed on these strong and intriguing women!
My Machiavellian side understands why Jane had to be executed. Even if she herself wished to be left alone and live quietly, the people around her would not be content to let her as she was their ticket to power if they successfully pulled off a coup. She was not strong enough to resist their machinations and for this reason she shouldn't ever sit on the throne. Her removal from the situation was necessary for stability. It's not particularly nice or fair that death was the only way to accomplish this. Mary had her hand forced by the actions of Janes own family. I feel sorry for Lady Jane but she should never have been made heir to Edward. She was too weak and too young.
Not a particular fan of David Starkey but I think he got Mary right when he said her main vice was moral vanity. Very obsessive about her beliefs and utterly convinced about the righteousness of them.
I never realised Jane died so young.
It must have been heart breaking seeing her trying to find the place to lay her head for the final time. She died so bravely, for one so young.
The more I read of Lady Jane Grey, the more I’m impressed by her. Such strength of character for one so young. Her execution was so unnecessary. Mary should have been stronger in sparing her life. It’s truly amazing the dignity she showed at her execution. I think she would have been a great Queen. She was educated, had high Christian values and a strong character. Poor girl ...with parents like hers...who needs enemies?
Re: the execution of Jane Grey: for Mary I think it was a great big signal to her half sister Elizabeth not to inspire any rebellions or you will be next!!
I’ve always found Lady Jane to be a very sympathetic figure. She was an unwilling pawn in a struggle for power.
I would love to see a video on Katherine Grey! I love learning about peoples lives that are often lost to history!
Thank you for talking about Lady Jane as a classical scholar. So very unusual for a woman at that time, even a high-born one. Notice how she is portrayed with a book.
I was first introduced to Jane by a happy accident at the library during my high school years 40 (!!!!) years ago, and I've continued my interest in her since. It was actually Jane's story that led me to Elizabeth I, and as a huge admirer of Elizabeth's, I am grateful for that. Jane's been treated as a footnote in English history, but I think her story should be more widely known. Thank you, Dr. Kat, for this amazing video about Jane. And, yes, please make a video about Katherine Grey. PS. stories like these really give me a negative view on power-hungry men, historical and present. That damn Thomas Seymour! He screwed up so many lives.
I had a similar story, acquiring a biography on Jane from a library book sale. I truly empathize with her; the film made that increasingly so. I portrayed her parents as brutal and power hungry. Is that a far portrait of Henry and Frances Grey?
I too came across Jane Grey during my last year of high school. I was on a "Six Wives of Henry VIII/Elizabeth R" craze and was immediately hooked on Jane's story. I'm now 68 but I own that YA novel which was written by Marguerite Vance. As for the 1986 "Lady Jane" movie, yes it was full of inaccuracies, but at that time I was glad that her story was finally being told. The other bonus was that Patrick Stewart, who played Jane's father Henry Grey in the film, went on to become Captain Jean-Luc Picard in the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" TV series. 😊
I like that Mary’s first instinct wasn’t to blame Jane. Having had her life so managed and left to the whims of men she probably understand that Jane really had no choice and would’ve been trying to make the best of a bad situation. It’s a really cool example of empathy for another woman that I wish would’ve been more widespread during that time.
“Let me know if you’d like me to make a video on”- Dr Kat, I’d watch a video of you telling the history behind the modern English phonebook.
if Edward's journal (that he kept throughout his life) is any guide, the device is all his. he inherited his father's force of will, and then some, even if he was still legally a minor. and after his experiences with his Seymour Uncles (and their kidnapping attempts) NO ONE was going to tell him what to do. if there was any coercion going on, it was to add the "and hers" after Jane's name, and the only reason he gave in was because there was literally no other option.
Excellent point, no doubt his youth plays a part in clouding scholars from being willing to see his power and capacity for political intrigue.
Please do a Lady Katherine Grey video! She's my 18th Great Grandmother, and is really underrated as a historical figure!
I second that request!
she's my second cousin 14 times removed.
I’m descended from both sides…. My great grandmother was a Grey from this line..
Love your videos! I find the life of Lady Jane Grey so sad. And I would love to see a video on Katherine Grey!
+1
I would as well.
I should very much like that as well...
I think that you bring up an immensely important point when you ask what gives someone the right to rule?
Is it bloodline, divine right, political or military might or the will of the subjects? I have never really given this much serious thought and have assumed that the succession must have been organised" fairly" in accordance with the predecessor's wishes. When I look at our history I see that I have been so very naive and just plain wrong!!!!
Thankyou Dr Kat because no one else, no teacher, lecturer, historian or presenter in my experience has brought up this one vital question. You always provide food for thought and further study,
I do feel for Lady Jane Grey, especially being so young. I would be interested in learning more of her sister Katherine please.
Stay safe and well💕
GRR Martin has for me come up with the best answer to this question, he said power resides where men believe it resides. In this case they believed it lay in Mary not Jane.
Kate H Except for divine right, which isn’t real, it usually was a combination of bloodline and /political/military might . But the most important was “the will of the people”, which back then, meant the will of the Barons. Especially the one with the biggest army. Generally, bloodline was respected until one king or the other started stripping people of their titles and lands. Then the fun began. It IS fascinating, and there is so many books about it. Have fun!
@@mangot589 reference some of the books, please?
@@dougr.2398 I can give you a couple that are general. I’ll have to find/look them up, some that I have or can recall the titles, that I think you might like. I borrow a lot from the library. In the meantime, Richard II is probably the best example I can think of right off the top of my head, so you can look into him. I’ll get back to you. The grandkids are here right now, but I will lol.
@@mangot589 thank you! Much appreciated!
I don’t know who wrote Edward’s device, but I do know there was no way in hell he had to be coerced into signing it. That kid was as anti-Catholic as they come.
His mother, whether she found herself in heaven or hell, must've been mortified. She desperately wanted to return England to Catholicism.
Mad Monkee it all would have been different had Edward known her.
@Garrod Saxon He had to exclude Elizabeth because of the reason he used to exclude Mary: "declared illegimiate"
That kid wasn't a kid he executed 2 uncles in vain glory profiting from his riches before he was 12! He wrote diaries in the 3rd person from 9 years old he had never been given the chance to be a child he was born as the heir to England.
ItZ Wardie He was TAUGHT to write so, in the third person. Throughout the 16th c, no child, neither rich not poor, had what we consider a childhood.
He was bought up with his responsibilities and duties, just as most children we're up through the first part of the 20th c. One had to respect one’s religious duties, elders, station in life. Working class kids had to respect elders, authorities, bosses (as many had to work.) That sort of self discipline created grownups, very different from the ones now.
The movie about her with Helena Bonham Carter, while overly romantic, seems to have been fairly accurate. If she doesn't count as Monarch because she was never anointed, then neither should Edward VIII, right?
Correct! Neither was Edward V, so I always count her in when I make mental notes of the English monarchy haha
And Edward V, but no-one ever misses him out! She's Queen Jane to me.
You're right about Edward VIII but, the movie with Bonham Carter was rife in inaccuracies, beginning with Jane's relationship with her husband. Before he was led to Tower Hill he asked to see her and she refused. Unlike the movie they were not close at all let alone in love. The movie includes many more liberties with history but that's the one I remember most.
Agreed. Except the movie gave Jane a loving and supportive husband. From what I’ve read in other sources, Guilford Dudley was neither.
@@sueb2b and Kev Mac... well- I did say FAIRLY accurate- I meant the history, not how people felt about each other... as mentioned- it was over romanticized- the film was going after a teen market.
Great vid. I feel Jane really was misused by the men around her for their own gain, which was often the case, unfortunately. She was currency.
And it's still happening today, men using girls and women. Females are more than half the human population of the world. Why are we still tolerating this?
@@nohjuan3048 agreed. Trafficking of women and girls is one of the biggest issues that just doesn't seem to get coverage.
Indeed. Let's also not forget that her mother was abusive and complicit, and that it was a woman who signed her death warrant.
I first saw the execution portrait of Lady Jane when I was about 10 years old in a copy of a British history magazine my grandfather subscribed to. It has always haunted me -- so tragic and so sad.
There’s an excellent film of Lady Jane Grey’s life, starring Helena Bonham Carter as Lady Jane Grey, which movingly depicts the pathos, dignity and idealism of her character.
I think acclamation more than anything else is the standard for a king or queen. This allows for Edward V and Edward VIII, but excludes Jane. Although King Louis (the Lion) was acclaimed and crowned in 1216, his acclamation was later rescinded; but as Shakespeare’s Richard II said, “ Not all the water in the rough rude sea can wash the balm from an anointed King.” So I guess the rules are being made up as needed by the powers that be.
Pretty much been that way since Eden.
Although I have always felt sympathy for Jane Grey, I always felt Mary was the rightful Queen.
Edward was not a weak King but I think from what I read of his writings he would have been a bad king.
He was a book burner & destroyer of music.
I believe I can date my reluctance to dream of being a 'princess' to reading a brief history of Jane Grey. I think I was the only 12 year old girl in my school who said 'thanks but no thanks' to the idea. When I watched that pretty child, Diana, rush to marry Charles, I had deep misgivings. Totally ignorant of his character I still felt that she was making a huge mistake! I am a happy peasant.
I remember reading that it was technically illegal for King Edward VI to set up a new succession, because Henry VIII's will for the succession had already been set into a act of Parliament, the Act of Succession. If Edward VI had had time to get his own succession plan set into an act of Parliament, overturning Henry's, then Edward's plan would have been legal. But, if Henry VIII had never gotten the Act of Succession passed, then both Kings' wills would have been equally up for grabs, with no force of law after their deaths (at least as far as the succession goes). Is that right?
Love the story of the Grey sisters and although Jane fascinated me it has been Katherine who has captured my attention. I would love to see a video and hear your thoughts on her.
Great video as always Dr Kat. There's a few reason that combine together to explain why I think we don't recognise Jane as a Queen normally:
Firstly, as you point out, she is never anointed as Queen. That certainly makes her less valid, but we do recognise Edward V & Edward VIII as King, neither of them went through a full coronation either, so it doesn't entirely rule Jane out.
Secondly, her claim to the throne so completely defies the laws of primogeniture, not only by ignoring Mary & Elizabeth (who Edward VI thought he could legally manoeuvre around as they had been declared bastards), but also Mary Queen of Scots claim (as the granddaughter of Henry VIII's older, rather than younger, sister) and, crucially, Jane's own mother Francis. This defies all of Gods 'natural order' in appointment of Monarchs. This makes Jane a usurper. However we do occasionally acknowledge usurpers as Monarch (Henry VII, for example).
But third, and perhaps the real clincher in the argument, her entire reign (in all 9 days) is disputed. She never truly has a moment of being recognised as Queen by the entire country at large, she never really is the person in the eyes of the country who has the best claim to the throne, that was always Mary, who of course succeeds in claiming that right. This permanent dispute of their time time in power is what excludes someone like Empress Matilda from being recognised as Queen as well. In fact Matilda would have more claim than Jane (as she was both the next in line via primogeniture, unlike Jane).
Once again Kat, great video 👍
The tragedy of someone so brilliant and so young being executed by no fault of her own, simply for doing as she was told by her toxic family…it’s just incredibly sad. Thank you for presenting her story with the tenderness and attention to detail that she deserves. If only girls like Jane had been allowed to go to college and contribute to academia instead of being shuffled about the aristocratic & marital chessboard for the benefit of others…
Excellent synopsis and opinion, I couldn’t agree more
Every time a new video of yours pops up on my feed I get so happy!
It’s very confusing how everyone is related.
Reminds me of a Patsy joke, “They have to throw a bit of common in every few generations to ensure bone structure.” 🤣
Well nobody wants a repeat of the whole Charles II of Spain and the "Hapsburg jaw". (Seriously he was so inbred his family tree is a wreath)
I've been fairly obsessed with Lady Jane Grey for decades. I roamed the rooms of the giant Tower of London to find her husband's graffiti of her name and finally found it (assuming, as I prefer to do, that it was really for her from him). This was an excellent history of her, thank you so much for it. I'd really like to go even more in depth with her. I think she was terribly used and manipulated by the men around her. what a sad ending for this 16yo child. It breaks my heart.
Thank you for untying the knot of Lady Janes story, the most important thing seems to be Edwards will, and there she is!
She did nothing wrong but had no power
And was expendable, and in the way.
Sigh. When I first learned of her long ago
I was horrified at her story and still am.
@18:30 - If we don't refer Lady Jane as 'Queen Jane' or 'Jane I' because she wasn't anointed with the Holy Oil of the coronation. Then why do we refer to other, non anointed kings, as kings? Edward V and Edward VI(?) spring to mind.
We don't refer to her as Jane I because there was never a Jane II, de jure, de facto, or titular, or even a Queen consort (or royal female PERIOD) named Jane.
As far as the oil, excellent point.
@@christopherbrown2706 I've seen some historians refer to her as 'Jane I' (Dr Suzanne Lipscombe's FutureLearn Tudors course refers to her as such), so this is why I mentioned this. No need to be rude. 🙄
@@BeatrixOnyx You raised an excellent point. I think it was Edward VIII actually. It would be interesting to see Dr Kat's view on this.
Also, I wouldn't pay Christopher Brown any attention. He's clearly a troll with nothing better to do.
@@freyabookishgamer True! They're definitely just 💪💪 quite sad really.
Misogyny, plain & simple.
This story was a little known gem of history. 💎
Thank you for this ...... I’m torn between admiring her religious principles and thinking I wouldn’t want her as a friend 😁
As for her father well he was either just an idiot or so ambitious he couldn’t just let go of the throne he must have known what would happen if the second rebellion failed. He was in fact the reason she had to die.
Ps if you could ‘do’ Katherine Swinford I would be love it.... how she originally begat the tudors is fascinating
Yes to more on Katherine Swinford!!
@@flannerypedley840 Yes, Katherine Swynford!!!
Yes, definitely more on Katherine Swynford!
If Jane Grey had been "lucky" enough to have her father executed as the result of his participation in the rebellion, she could have sworn fealty to Queen Mary, and later to Queen Elizabeth I, and retired peacefully to some obscure corner of England. If she had then been lucky enough to survive the birth of a son, she might have been Queen briefly after Elizabeth died and passed the crown to her heir. Her death at such a young age was entirely her father's fault. He couldn't have been more responsible if he had swung the axe himself.
@@calamityjean1525 Oooh, I really like that as an alternative history! I don't know how Jane would've behaved towards Mary, or as the subject of a Catholic queen, but certainly England wanted a Protestant heir after Elizabeth, & Jane & her son might've been preferable to the king of Scotland. Before then, it might've weakened Mary Queen of Scots' claim, &thus saved her life as well as Jane's! And assuming Jane had her son with Guilford Dudley, I can certainly see Elizabeth looking kindly on her darling Robert's nephew... Fascinating idea!
This was a wonderful re-telling of the story of Jane Grey. I would very much like to hear the stories of her sisters.
There is also a matter that I'd like to introduce. Barring the Sisters Grey, you have covered virtually everything the story of the Tudors have to tell us . We read about them, there are movies, television series, books galore. But once Elizabeth I passes there's a desert until we come to Victoria, with only a bobble here and there from Bonnie Prince Charlie, George III and the Regency. I'd like to something of the story of the STEWARTS who followed the Tudors and the Hanoverians. Can we please begin with examinations of the SEVENTEENTH century and its players from James I through Charles I, Lord "Protector" Cromwell, and Charles II? I'd like to expand that to cover the little-discussed period between the two great queens, Elizabeth and Victoria.
Good point.The Civil War,was as fascinating, if not moreso than the Tudors.It moves from the Court to the people and there are some amazing stories. Charles 2nd's escape from the battle of Worcester is my favourite, because initially it all started in my home region. I know Boscobel House, the places in Worcester and why no one has ever made a film of it I will never know. Here is this heir to the throne,hiding in trees, being sheltered by Catholic Freemen, escorted halfway across the country by an immensely brave woman who passed him off as her servant,.Forget Flora McDonald and her pathetic 5 minute boat ride.There is Farce! One of his Nobles flatly refused to disguise himself and travelled in luxury while he future king was subterfuging.They would meet up en route and the noble nearly blew the cover! It is an amazing story.The fact that Charles didn't forget Any of the people who helped when he regained his throne endeared me to him.. I think he gets a bad press. Yes he was indolent, a womaniser, lousy with money but he was also immensely loyal and I think he never forgot what common people risked for him .www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/worcester.html
Charles ll is the one I’d want to meet
@@lynnedelacy2841 Me too
Yes, I'd love to hear more of the Stewarts!
Such an interesting story - I've been so inspired by Dr Kat I've started my own channel 😊
“In the tragic circumstances that a woman must sit on the English throne” 💀
This video is chock full of interesting information! I watched several times so that I could soak it all in.
I wonder about all the of secret marriages taking place during this time, even Henry's own sister Mary took Charles Brandon as her husband without permission from the king. What was causing these women to feel more empowered to make their own choices? Perhaps you could speak on this topic in a future video? Thanks
I can't help but wonder what would've happened if Edward and Jane had lived longer and married. Would they have had many healthy children? How would their descendants have reigned?
probably wouldn't be a very pretty place for catholics to live in.
If we acknowledge Edward viii with a regnat number even though he was not crowned why don’t we do the same for Jane just wondering
Proclamation vs coronation has always been a tangled issue (to me anyway) in English history. Why do we also never hear about King Louis I of England? (Later King Louis VIII of France)
i wonder the same, but with Edward V and Matilda
@@luciadilazzaro2285 Yes, wasn't Mathilda England's "Lady" rather than "Queen"?
I think because it's generally considered that she was never rightfully queen.
I have always felt that Jane was wrongfully treated. I keep forgetting just how young she was, wow!
And yes, please, to a Lady Katherine video. Really, an Anyone video ;-)
I've always had a soft spot for Jane Grey. Such an amazingly intelligent girl who seems to have had such a tragic life. You're right, if they had contained Mary, it would have been game over.
I think this my favorite Tudor tale. I know that sounds awful because it ended so horrifically for all involved. The Tudors were few, but there power was absolute. John Dudley and Henry are the scapegoats, with Frances on the domestic side of things. Edward the sick, and Mary the crazed catholic. Jane the saint and Guildford the brutal husband. History is written by the victors. Even then it wasn't all black or white and truth resides somewhere in the middle. That being said, Jane was a pawn in their game of thrones. Part of the times in which she lived. Sadly pawns are sometimes sacrificed. May she rest in peace. Even Mary didn't want to go through with it. She felt she had no choice. Yes, I would also love to hear of Catherine and Mary Grey.
Don't pity Bloody Mary. Nobody forced her to murder Jane and Guildford and so many other innocents.
I would love to see you do a video on Katherine Grey!
Love my Friday mornings. No work, hot coffee, and a good half hour w/ Dr. Kat.
Jane never really stood a chance; who knows what her parents would have done had she refused to take the throne and stood her ground over it. All they expected of her was to be queen; either by marrying Edward or in her own right.
My God, what a period of history! From the Wars of the Roses onward, how many ambitious nobles lost their lives in pursuit of the crown or the power of association with it? As if the example of the Seymours wasn't fresh enough, Dudley had to follow their footsteps expecting a different outcome. As for Jane, I'm of the opinion that Edward VI's will made her the heir...a point of law powerless against the popular support for Henry's daughters of the body or the religious fervor that accrued to each. Finally, pray for the soul of the pitiable child, Lady Jane Grey; blameless and briefest Queen of England!
I don't think she was a pliable child.For a start she was not a 'child' by Tudor Standards, secondly whe was far from 'pliant' Have you read some of her comments? She was quite happy to take the throne for the Protestant cause.She was Not happy to have John Dudley pulling her strings: I see her like Joan of Arc, fervent in her belief and quite happy to become a martyr for it. It hink Dr Kat got it pretty right.
There wasn't much subservience to Jane's nature. She was fervently religious and politically astute. I don't think she sought the throne, I do think she was surprised & I even believe she thought Mary I had the right. Still, I think she wished to make the most of it. I hate the image of her as a shrinking innocent child thrown to the wolves. She was raised by wolves.
Sometimes she was forced into things but I don't believe she was ever manipulated into them.
She was young and her death is tragic, but she was intelligent and passionate and I believe had she held on she would have brought about the death or exile of every English catholic.
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 Yes, she was an adult by the standards of her day, but was a child by the standards of ours. And I wrote pitiable, not pliable. I was reacting to her plight, not trying to explicate her circumstances.
Power makes people do crazy things. The British royals aren’t near as ridiculous as the Ancient Egyptians. They killed off their brothers and married and impregnated their sisters like gangbusters
I would love to see a video on Richard Rich. Was he really as nasty and calculating as he is portrayed in A Man for All Seasons?
My husband and I love your channel and enjoy watching! Your videos are so interesting and informative. Thank you!
Fascinating! and yes, Katherine Grey next please. You really do know how to tell a story, Dr. Kat. :)
Would like to know more about Katherine Grey. Thanks for your videos, I enjoy them very much.
Poor women were just pawns in a chess game back then.
I thoroughly enjoy your channel. I knew a lot but I love your ferreting out and explaining detail! I learn so much. I have on question. I asked this of Allison Weir once and her reply left me more confused I think (she is one of my favorite authors, her book Innocent Traitor about Queen Jane is excellent historical fiction). why was Frances Brandon not considered in the line of succession. Neither Henry VII or Edward VI even mention her in that capacity. Mrs. Weir seemed to indicate it had something to do with poor regard for her husband..but her husband wouldn't inherit anything..he would have a lot of influence, I guess. Seems to me something is missing here. Thank you!
I think it would be fascinating to ask Queen Elizabeth how she felt about what happened to Queen Jane.
8:25 - so easy to relate to her. It's really hard when you can, in your parents' eyes, do absolutely nothing right.
It's a strange parallel between Mary and Elizabeth that they both had a cousin through their father's sister who made a claim to their crown and they were forced to execute.
One of the touching fates in english history.....such a very young girl....possibly not entirely innocent of her fate....but eliminated completely unnessesarily and senselessly....Tool of power hungry beasts...
Thank you for doing this video on Jane Grey. I have been interested in her tragic story since I first learned about her (from the film Lady Jane). As others have stated here, I have no doubt that she would have quietly and happily lived out her life if she had been allowed to do so. Unfortunately, she was a pawn for the ambitions of others.
A few asides ...
1) Yes to a Lady Katherine video, or all the Grey Sisters (I'm getting an, "... Angelica ... Eliza ... and Peggy" tune in my head.
2) I really love the usage of visuals in your videos. Especially the family trees and artwork. You're doing alot more of this lately, and its extremely effective, thank you!!!
3) Who the hell are the down-voters? You get like three haters every video. Ugh.
I am struck by the power of the common people back then. The Dudleys controlled the government in London, had all the power that comes with that position,but ordinary men and women believed May Tudor was the rightful heir to the throne and with their backing Mary became Queen and the Dudley's power melted like snow..
Documentation of the early persecution of introverts!
What a great video! I love the topic of monarchy, and its especially sad that Jane could have been the First Queen Regnant if she had been recognized officially, both her and Matilda have always been left out when it comes to "Queens of England" as both were written out of history because of their successors.
Just found your videos and I’m obsessed 🥰
Dr. Kat's videos have become my most recent addiction, lol. They're wonderful!
If we only recognized those who actually had coronations then Richard III would not be labeled a usurper as there would be no Edward V.
I think that Katherine Grey is the most interesting of the three sisters. At one point she was considered to be Elizabeth's heir, but Elizabeth didn't like disobedient subjects. She and her sons could have been a counterpoint to Mary Stuart and James if Elizabeth could have thought of them that way., and not as a threat. When I saw the title of this video, I thought it would be another magnification of an insignificant historical figure who was queen for 9 days, but you made it more interesting than that, especially with the use of portraiture.
Lovely video as always! I heard too that it was Jane’s religious defiance of Mary that ultimately got her executed. Mary was as devoted of a Catholic as Jane was a devoted Protestant. I believe I learned somewhere that even as a prisoner in the tower she wrote letters defending her faith and denouncing Catholicism and this along with her father’s part in the rebellion got her killed. I do find her such a fascinating character in the Tudor storyline. I would love you to do a video on Catherine Gray as well!
The clearest religious defiance of the era was certainly Mary I under her little brother. He tried compromise, threats, commands, hurting those close to her, near begging.
I really believe Mary didn't want to kill Jane, even with the religious differences. Like Elizabeth I killing Mary QoS, it came down to the threat posed as a symbol for rebellion. Whether or not she would have participated, her existence itself inspired treachery in others.
Yes💗 very happy! Yes a video on her sisters please.
Dr. Kat - A Thumbs Up for Sure -
Your Informative Video explains in Full Details about this Sad Story in our History .
I do believe it is the Best i have seen . Though , not much is ever mentioned about Lady Jane Grey's Grand Mother - Lady Margaret Wotton (Marchioness of Dorset) from Boughton Malherbe , which was married to Sir Thomas Grey ll (Marquess of Dorset) from Groby .
Her Parents are my 14th G. G. Parents along with Princess Diana's . Even though not Royals , they married into the Family and were an important part in History as my 13th G. G. Father Sir Edward Wotton was on the Privy Council to King Henry VII & his brother Nicolas (Doctor of Laws) was on the Council of King Henry VIII . In 1514 Margaret & her husband accompanied Princess Mary Tudor to France for her wedding to King Louis XII of France . In 1533 she rode in Anne Boleyn's Coronation Procession . She stood as one of the Godmother's of Princess Elizabeth . A Long History within itself which i continue to Research .
Fantastic video. It would be lovely to see a video on Katherine Grey and possibly black people in Tudor England.
It’s a shame that there was no “me too”movement back in those days. Women were used as objects to gain power by three male relatives. Was there ever ONE who rebelled ?
I suspect that were told "get thee to a nunnery" or were married off and expected to care for children, or die in the process of producing them ... No need for further control.
I'm sure there were, but they were either literally or figuratively beaten down. Women didn't have choices or any kind of voice.
Do you think the collapse of Lady Jane's regime influenced Mary Tudor in not naming Lady Margaret Douglas as her heir? I am sure she was Mary's preferred choice as successor [ Obviously Elizabeth was a suspected heretic, but Mary Queen of Scots, the nearest catholic heir was half French and half Scottish. This would not endear her to the half Spanish, half English Mary Tudor], but Mary must have feared that Elizabeth had the same popular support that Mary had and that naming Lady Margaret [who was her friend] could have fatal consequences for her.
Please do, as a student with a primary interest in the early modern period, a piece on Kathrine as well as Edward Seymour would be very interesting. I throughly enjoy your videos and find them extremely helpful with critical analysis. x
Henry’s will was the only legal document for succession; Edward was too young to have a legal will without the ascent of parliament, so upon Edwards death the legal monarch was Mary-Jane could not be Queen.
I would count Jane as Queen! Henry VIII had the right to name his heir, why shouldn't Edward VI. do so as well? What right does Henry VIII have to decide who the future kings and queens would be? In my opinion: None. He has the right to name his direct heir, sure, but nothing more. After that, his successor should choose his or her heir. Plus: Henry VIII never wanted to have the heirs of his older sister Margaret to inherit the throne. So why would it be okay for Elizabeth I. to go against her father's wishes and name James VI. of Scotland as her heir, but it's not okay for Edward VI. to do so. Jane may have never been crowned Queen, but neither was Edward V. and he counts as king of England.
Yes please to Katherine and Mary Grey. Jane had backbone like Elizabeth, but not the same protectors or political savvy. She is another horrible case of an intelligent, vulnerable woman, girl really, preyed upon by men. I wanted to study her more 30 years ago, but my Tudor & Stuart prof ,said, "She's been done to death." I wanted to discover fact from fiction after seeing the Helena Bonham Carter/Carey Elwes film. Wish I could remember what I wrote about instead. He lost my paper. "How could I misplace it?! You wrote the best paper of the class"
What I find interesting is that even with the succession in Jane's favour and friends in power at court, Mary was still able to topple her as she would reign with the support of the people. No monarch can rule easily without that support. I'd also love to hear more about the Grey sisters' lives, please.
Is there any relation between Henry Grey (Jane’s father) and the family that Elizabeth Woodville married into? I’d be curious to know if there is.
You know I have never heard much on Catherine Parr's daughter Mary. I would love to know if there is anything on her.
Unfortunately, it seems very likely that she died in early childhood. She certainly disappears from the historical record.
I would love for you to do a video on names and naming traditions in Medieval and Tudor England. I am fascinated by all of the Marys, Janes, Margarets, Thomases, etc....what about other names we rarely hear? Were they more common among lower rungs of society? Thanks!!!!
LJG's childhood home ruins can be seen at Bradgate Park in Leicestershire.
I agree that lady Jane was manipulated by her family and the Dudleys poor child
I like it that you mentioned that writers in the generation after Lady Jane Gray Probably portrayed her in a much more sympathetic light than Queen Mary the first. She was the young innocent Protestant Queen who could have saved them from the evil manipulative and bloodthirsty Queen Mary the first.
I think the discussion of the portrait is interesting. The portrait and eye witness account show Jane as an innocent, but in another documentary called "England's Forgotten Queen: The Life and Death of Jane Grey", the historians think of her as a player in her own right. As you said Dr. Kat, she may not have wanted the throne, but she was going to give it her all. Everyone thinks of Jane Grey as a naive innocent but the historians in the documentary assert that how could someone that intelligent and with formidable Tudor will in her blood be a completely naive innocent. I think she was a young girl caught n circumstances she didn't want but rose to the occasion. She was tougher than everyone made her out to be.
She was coronated queen but not annointed as Edward vi was annointed but not coronated and so is known as king Edward vi
Lady Jane: *Learns Hebrew so she can study the Old Testament on her own.*
Me, a Theologian: That is so hot.
I love how it's sort of casually seen as a huge mistep, impropriety that she would "reach for the throne," that it was uppity, upstartish, and plain disloyal for her to do so, but it was what the prior king had WILLED. So in not supporting his decision, they were not being loyal to HIM. The victors do truly write history. As much as I'm inspired by Elizabeth's reign, it's initeresting to think of what a reign by Jane would have looked like, the potential turns England would have taken. Of course I immediately think of Calais.
It would be a very interesting counter-factual history exercise to explore this - I'm sure someone has already give it a go, in fact!
Jane had no power and, most likely, no interest in being queen. As was the case with most Tudor women, her choices were limited by the men in her life. How could she decline the pressure from her family? Impossible, with no independent resources and the status of women at the time. Most likely, all of these situations influenced Elizabeth I. Her decision not to marry and to not have children led to a long, if not perfectly happy, life. Love all of your videos Dr. Kat. 🥰
Dr. Kat I love your channel, you are such a great interpreter of histories. Please continue to do more on English awesome Kings, Queens, and other around the power of UK history. Thank you so much for your great outlook in history. sending you many virtual hugs from Montreal Canada.
It is so sad how mens ambition has often cost women their lives. There are many examples of great female rulers who outshined men. It has always bothered me how women had no say in anything or very little and men just used them in their power games. One of my ancestors Saint Birgitta was married at a very young age and had a lot of children. When her husband died her father once again wanted to force her into a marriage and she didn't want another marriage. Christ started to show himself to her as did his mother Mary and with that she was now an adviser to the King instead and I believe she was a smart and cunning woman, who found a way out of another marriage and was able to help other women avoid being forced into marriage. Life has never been easy for women:)
I call her Queen Jane Grey instead of Lady Jane Grey because she is a queen
Is Grey from Elizabeth Woodville's line?
Yes, they descended from Elizabeth's son Thomas Grey, from her first marriage.
@@BeatrixOnyx they're all related all over the place.
Jane Grey was descended from both of Elizabeth Woodville's two marriages. From the first, son Thomas Grey, grandson Thomas Grey, great-grandson Henry Grey, great-great-granddaughter Jane Grey. From the second, daughter Elizabeth of York, granddaughter Mary Tudor, great-granddaughter Frances Brandon, and, again, great-great-granddaughter Jane Grey. Elizabeth II is descended from both of Elizabeth's granddaughters, by the way. From her father's side, she's descended from Margaret Tudor; from her mother's side, Mary Tudor.
I’m so enjoying your videos! I’m Canadian, and have always been fascinated by the Royal Family. I also so enjoy reading about history. Thank you for delving into some of the less publicized members of the Royal Family!
If we call her Queen Jane then we also need to add in Queen Matilda.
Thank you so much for this video. I will refer Lady Jane Grey as Queen Jane Grey from now on. I think she deserves it. ❤
I've always been fascinated with Queen Jane's history the 9 days Queen is so overlooked. I'd loved to hear about Jane's fellow sisters. Maybe also on the Seymour brothers Edward & Thomas.
Thank you i enjoyed very much,
You forgot election by the Witan.
Jane Grey's demise remains a most unjust and tragic one; she was used and abandoned by her family.. Given her excellent education and her edict that her husband not share the throne, one wonders whether she would have had, like Elizabeth, a long and prosperous rule. I agree that anointing a monarch is the highest religious act recognized in the act of crowning a legal descendant to rule, as the reason she is not referred to as Queen Jane.. Yes I would be interested in your take on the life of Lady Katherine Grey. Thank you for rounding out my understanding of historical facts.