Zepla, what you said at 22:40, I could not disagree with you more. My bf and I quit WoW last year. We had built a guild (we were the guild leaders) that had lasted for more than 10 years. Our guild moto was 'real life comes first', we actually helped new players learn the game and their class. We were welcoming to all and worked around any rl challenges they might have. It was important to me because I'm autistic. We constantly stated that we were not a hardcore guild. And that worked as a foundation for years. All it took was one group of people in the guild, to form a click and decide they didn't like how we focused on having a fun and friendly oriented group. Instead they wanted us to transform it into a progressive, hard core raiding guild. And as you state that people should do, they left the guild to form their own (which didn't last more than 6 months) but they destroyed our guild in process. It wasn't enough to simply leave. They spread lies and rumors, and cause a bunch of mess. They started sexually harassing our members and posting vile and explicit things in our guild chat and our discord channel. We made complaints to Blizzard and they did nothing, even though the actions of these people broke Blizzard rules and in a few cases were illegal in any country. It got so bad that one of our members had to get the police involved in real life! The people that did this had been part of a our guild for quite some time. They knew what our guild was about and we thought they were our friends. What changed? We weren't progressing fast enough or far enough for them. They started complaining and point fingers at our members who they deemed were slacking and began demanding that we kick these people out of the guild. We refused and explained once again what our guild was about. We encouraged them that if we did not fit them then they should find a guild that better fit them. It wouldn't have been an issue. We understood that our guild didn't fit the needs of every person. But that's when they started all the crap ... obviously we kicked them. But it didn't stop them. They continued to harass our guild. All I'm saying is what you state is short sighted. It's not as simple as you put it. Yeah, sure, when pugging a group what you say might work. But don't think it can't happen in a guild setting. Because it does and the main reason seems to be because people get greedy and no longer care about the group. It's no longer about having fun with friends. It's about what they can get and using others to get it. Then it becomes a game of trolling, because they think it's funny. Unfortunately, our experience is not an exception. You need only to look online for stories. It's the way the game is built that encourages this kind of behavior. Why do you think WoW doesn't have housing? Because they don't want people to do anything else but raid. They have stated that. They wanted WoW to be more like an e-sport. But that's why WoW has become toxic. What you said ignores all of us who went through hell because of assholes, and somehow blames us for their bad behavior 😢 ... just wanted to add one more thing. Our guild regularly did mythic raiding. It's not like we weren't good. We just included people who were not always geared the best or had the best numbers. So we progressed slower. That was what these people were pissed about =/
I'm fairly new to modern WoW. I queued up to tank a heroic earlier today. I get called a stupid tank during the first pull. I have no idea why - we cleared the pull pretty fast with no deaths. I immediately drop group and went to go do a Delve instead. In 4800 hours of FFXIV, I never saw anyone berate a new player.
having played at least since pandaria... i can say it's gotten worse since then. it's always been full of people with no life who feel they have the right to be mean to anyone in their general vicinity over it, but the cultures so bad that i just won't play anymore. like i would argue it is outright difficult to find people in wow who are enjoyable to spend time with let alone do anything in game with. helping people also just isn't rewarded socially or by the game they way it is in, like, final fantasy, where 'helping each other' is a core theme of the entire game. it sucks bc i actually miss and am nostalgic over wow. but anytime i try to play it most of the fun comes from that surge of nostalgia, after which i'll be bored and too put off by the community to try to do anything about it. playing classic recently, i couldn't even get a dungeon group together to do a single one.
Wasn't toxic for me back when i started in TBC. I was playing like shit and people invited me to raids and stuff, never told me i was garbage. I noticed the game getting more toxic when mythic+ was introduced.
WoW players have always been toxic. Had a guy the other night in a raid literally admit that he liked being a jerk essentially because he couldn't be one at work. So to him its ok to treat people behind keyboards like garbage because he can't in person. What a wonderful person. I have played since Vanilla this is the norm. It shouldn't be the norm but it is.
i played wow for the first time last month and went with classic. the player base gets mad at you for rolling on everything which i didn't know at the time. i get that wow classic refuses to update its loot rules but these things don't get explained to you until you go through it and make someone mad. it's a fault of the game.
I think especially classic/vanilla players assume that there no new players. :D There are and were players that did what you did on purpose to disenchant stuff or get all gems that are normally greed for everybody. Sorry that you had a bad experience on your first run. :(
I got flamed for rolling Off spec tank armor for my DK because i just didn't get any gear for that whole run. When that tank really didn't need the gear. I wanted some progress for spending about 4 hours trying to find a group for TOGC . It was my first raid and I just wanted some gear so I can get invited to other raids alot easier
@@minementalx i had my partner with me and they explained to me why they were mad and the general loot rules. it was just frustrating because i had no idea you aren't supposed to roll on everything. then on the next run i rolled on something that was an upgrade for me but someone still got mad because they it wasn't plate gear and i was a paladin. i get why people would be mad at people rolling on this stuff cause they sell and disenchant but it was just ridiculous lol. overall i still had a good time with my partner.
@@Craytonex that sucks. i get just wanting to feel some progression in the form of gear. i dont think there is anything wrong with rolling for something you intend to use. obviously people feel way too strongly about this stuff. its just impossible to gauge what someone's reaction will be until you roll and then poof you are getting flamed. as long as you have a good reason to roll it shouldn't be an issue. hope you find some good groups c:
possibility for negative progress in m+ and any mistakes leading to that, plus huge dps waitlists where you are just a number and everyone is easily replaceable is why.
@5:04 Zepla hit the nail on the head. Games generally are not toxic, players are. The more you have to interact with random players and the more your "success" is tied to the performance of those random people the more likely it is you will run into toxic behavior.
Yet wow has integrated shit like mythic io score, which is toxic. If the class balance sucks and m io score is in your face whos fault is it that a person playing a c tier spec with sub 2000 score takes literally an hour to get accepted into anything above a +2. Mythic io score ruined this game imo.
@@slimfastsubaru2043 Then do things to reduce your reliance on strangers in LFG. Do the things within your control to reduce reliance on PUG's. Blaming others when there are things you could be doing to better your situation is in many cases childish and entitled nonsense. Is it easy, no, but it can be done. Will it take effort? Absolutely. If you don't want to put in the effort thats fine, I don't want to put in the effort to be a Michelin Star Chef, but I am not going to complain about restaurants not hiring me as chef.
@Machete__Squad lol I'm at 2400 rn working on 10s. It's not a me issue, but it is an issue for anyone that can't no life the game from day 1 or likes a spec that isn't great. Only entitled one here it sounds like is you.
@Machete__Squad also wtf else do they do? They are sitting there trying to get into low keys, that's literally the thing to do. Tf do you mean "don't want to put in the effort"? You're a joke.
@@slimfastsubaru2043 There is nothing in the game that limits who can be invited to a certain lvl key based on their score. That's an individual player's choice. As for not being "meta", again that's a function of the player deciding how important a tier list is with regard to what is and is not viable, despite any evidence to the contrary. If a player can't get accepted, they can always run their own key with whomever they choose.
When realms were stuck to their own doings, things could still be elitist, but wouldn't say toxic. If you wanted to get into raids, you did attunement quests, you found like minded guilds. Spamming in World and Trade for Heroics you needed to have a decent reputation, and not limited to your ability to DPS, Tank, or Heal. If you routinely behaved poorly, you'd more often than not struggle to find quality groups. While those who stayed alive, or attempted to ask for help, would more often than not be supported or helped through a run. Realistically the only change that truly happens, is when society itself matures, so of course, "good luck there."
This is how a game dies. If established players become toxic POS's and pushes away new players learning how to play or people who have been away from the game for awhile, the game will eventually die from attrition.
16:30 life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination - motto of the knights radiant. Its in “the way of kings” by brandon sanderson. I really love that book and the series its in.
I've actually found WoW to be less toxic than when I left the game 8 years ago, I came back for TWW very reluctantly and honestly have been pleasantly surprised at how welcoming most of the community is(of course there are still some assholes out there)but most of the people I've ran into have been really helpful....I'm having a blast so far
@@jeshirekitenkatt1212 well let’s see….I have a toon on gurubashi and a few on laughing skull..went out mount farming for old Blanchy and was with a group of complete strangers and we were cracking jokes and having a general good time..earlier today…like I said I’ve run into a few A holes out there but for everyone of them I’ve run into ten people who are genuinely nice….and I really try to reciprocate that
Yeah I have to agree. I started playing in WoD, so modern WoW era and I only noticed the playerbase growing less toxic over time. Which makes sense I suppose with wow's aging average median playerbase and people generally tending to mellow out as they get older
The one saving grace for TWW is that delves exist. Gameplay has been stress free away from group content. Not to say that great guilds exist. But for 80 percent pugs of normal players, it's great.
One of the biggest things we as players can do to combat elitism and toxicity and keep gaming going is to self-reflect on our first runs of duties. When I first started playing FFXIV my computer was in the process of wearing out it was in this moment I found a group of friends in keeper of the lake that made such an impact on my life with their unwillingness to kick me or let me leave the dungeon and before we left that dungeon we added each other to the friends list and they all led me through the rest of the msq when they could and more than anything helped me chose a computer that could better handle running the game. When my health really started going bad and vision problems became a problem these people are on discord checking on me everyday. Myself I don't look at games as virtual worlds anymore if consumed properly just an expansion of the real world that allows us to meet people we would never meet
ff player playing wow for the first time. My first normal raid the lead was kicking people for doing less damage than the tanks. Like, what? We were doing just fine and flying through the mobs and bosses. it made the experience stressful and annoying. **edit to note that I didn't have the mod to show damage so i was stressing not knowing if i was doing well or not LOL
yea i'd tbfh argue that addons for seeing ur dps in wow are straight up a driver of toxicity in the game. i have never once in all my time playing ff been given crap for how much damage i was doing so long as i was actually doing something. there is a video, also by mad season i think, about why it's straight up 'rude to be bad at the game' in wow. it's a good video that i think covers a lot of what's gone wrong here in terms of player attitudes towards each other. i don't even recommend people get dps meters anymore, i think it just ruins the ability to enjoy the game as a game and not a job with strict expectations for performance. EDIT: OH it's mentioned here, it's folding idea's video!
@@jeshirekitenkatt1212 I would personally only recommend DPS meters when u reach like a boss in a raid where your just stuck there but have no reason why which happened to me and i downloaded it and saw "Oh me and this other dude isnt up to par with the rest of the group to clear this boss, I will have to step up my game and focus more or learn about my class more before the next raid" It's all about how you use it, the DPS meters isnt made to be a bad thing but alot of people have no idea how to use them to optimize their damage even more. One good example of how to be better is just looking at the other DPS that is the same class and spec as you and looking at what they use more than you
Yeah, but how much lower than the tanks? In some extreme aoe situations, certain tanks can pump out a lot of DPS. But in all others there's just no reason for it to happen unless those DPS aren't even trying.
Blizzard has not bounced back well, not 5 months ago they killed Overwatch 2 and did their fans worse than any company has ever done in years. Are we just talking wow in specific? cuz Blizzard has been a shit show nonstop for years now
And she's probably also one of the small percent of American women with a full, untrimmed bush. I mean, her reaction to the ad makes it seem like that was the first time she EVER heard of the concept of people grooming their privates! Makes me wonder if she's even other adult humans naked?
This is my personal experience with raiding last times I tried back between Draenor and Legion. Every day I come home with a refreshed mindset, ready to have another crack at the raid, willing to give players whom I meet for the first time the chances for mistakes since I myself do mistakes too. Sadly, I meet constant toxic behaviour, be it an elitist or someone who refuses to learn after a few mistakes or simply someone who's here to ruin everyone else's say. Only after weeks of frustration do I ever get a once in a bluemoon raid that plays well and is wholesome to be with. Am sorry Zepla, but I disagree with you on the "You get toxic players because you are looking for them" playing with random groups should not always end up with have a heap of trash players at every corner ready to ruin everyone else's day who came to have fun. When people say the community has a lot of toxic players am pretty sure a large % of them mean it and are tired of it as I was back in those expansions. One does not have to feel being pushed into a wall where they have to get in a guild. I won't deny that being in a guild can have a lot of benefits, granted that one ends up in a good guild. I have been in few good guilds before. But I also have been in many terrible guilds as well. Lets not also forget the insane list of adds you need to use in order to be accepted in a raid group. I personally think stuff like that should have been banned a long time ago. It does nothing but create more toxicity and leaves a large gap where new players would like to raid without such addons. "Yeah but there thise groups who plays without em" I dont think anyone would like to incapacitate themselves to do that. They would rather use third party tools to make raiding easier. And WoW devs have been making new raids with these adds in mind. That being said, I have no clue what's been happening recently in the raiding community now, but currently playing warwithin and nearing the max level, and I'll see for myself how things are. I would love to be proven wrong truly. That I could just play without addons, that I can find a mostly good groups that dont mind wipes and are here to have fun.
Thank you for this video. The ad was very amusing and the main topic thought provoking. I didn't think that the logic always followed but that's just me. I suppose I am one of the free play sorts who plays for fun. To me, if it's not fun, then it's work and I retired a few years ago. In thinking about the emotional attachment, I think for me it was night elves because bfa was such a downer for them and me. SL and DF did nothing to change that. For me there was no real resolution for what happened to them and the books almost seemed like holocaust denial. I started doing dungeons (pugs) in Wrath when they introduced the dungeon finder. These pugs were not toxic and the memory of what they were is why I don't do pugs anymore. I continued playing classic for a while but the instrumental player fascists began to show up towards the end ('if you don't have your world buffs, you don't deserve any raid loot' kind of thing). I blame the Icy Veins type web sites because their so-called experts gave said fascists a holy book for their inquisition. I've left blizzard for good and now get my wow fix from private servers.
Ngl i can easily tank whatever toxicity wow had for the past 18 years. 2 weeks in xiv endgane and that was enough. Gw2 def has the best level of toxicity. A healthy balance of shit talk and very little drama
I never played WOW because my stereotype of a WOW players was fat, old and mean dudes who play the game 24 hrs and think they are gods for being good at it treating others like shit. This is literally my reasoning for never trying WOW.
Honestly in my years of playing WoW, I find those people to be few and far between. Like, I can recall only once whilst doing M+ where a group has been like extremly toxic. Although tbf I haven't played it for 3 years, so idk if things are worse now than before, and maybe I got immune to it to the point that I stopped noticing it or just repressed it. Point is, I have met more nice people that I became friends with than toxic idiots :) But! If you can get some friends to experience the game with you for the first time, I think you could have a pretty good time doing dungeons together and avoid randoms all together, if that is your cup of tea. \o/
My wife just recently started playing and I would say from her POV that those type of people barely appear. Maybe it's cause its easy to find videos of those people cause negativity attracts attention but there are far more friendly and nice people in Guilds more than people realize. Alot of the people currently who have complained are usually not in a guild and just try to PUG which is never the solution for higher content so its a very weird POV when someone tells you its bad cause odds are that they arent good at communicating hence never being in a guild or never trying to be part of a group and complaining its toxic
I think there is a little more to this then more people = more assholes. There is a bunch od people who think they are way better then everyone they actually are and they make it their mission to refuse aby form of responsibility. Someone new to group content will meet plenty od them doing low level keys. No wonder that their perception of m+ community is so negative.
I think my problem with madseason's videos now is that he is recycling the same stuff he says in every video and then randomly he will bring up the WoW token stuff which is like WE GET IT, BAD FOR COMMUNTIY BLAH BLAH BLAH but it just feels like he is saying this in all his videos the same way but with different words now
So don't engage in high-end M+? Already ahead of the curve by choosing not to participate in that content. People have mostly been pretty friendly, or just silent in what I come across.
If he wasn't so one-sided and biased for classic resp. against retail. Classic/SoD also has a lot of drama surrounding group requirements etc, similar to parts of retail.
He has always been like this and is kind of a running joke whenever you watch his videos if he mentions the WoW token or shows a picture of the WoW token means he is gonna recycle what he said in previous shit too
i was kicked just recent bc i apparently stole gear from someone like um srry we both wear the same shit an i won the roll was also kicked for being high dps as a healer today lol btw no a soul died the whole run i was in lol
League really is a game that you play when you are at your worst usually. I really feel like when I am not playing league I am a better person. Sure other games like Dota, CS or WoW can be toxic, but where in those games I am still taken aback when someone is toxic and I am like wow, that is surprising, why is that person so toxic ? Whereas when I play league, i am surprised when ppl arent toxic, immediately at the slightest mistake you assume you will get flamed it is the only game I think where ppl preemtively mute all communication from the whole team even the pings. If someone is toxic I am not shocked, I am like ye, as expected or ye that makes sense it is league after all. Makes me not even care about toxicity in the end that It is not even a factor that I consider when someone says a game is toxic. It is like it cant be as bad as league. The occasional toxicity in games like WoW cant even phase me.
WoW is toxic from the very beginning all thanks to faction and race hate. Blizz is trying really hard to remove that animosity between factions and races because the game has become the breeding ground for racist individuals and domestic terrorist and it's leaking out in the real world. Anything PvP is inherently toxic because people often needs to be reminded that it's a sport, it's just a game, but when you have a game based on hatred, violence, and war -- well, you get toxicity. Blizz failed to create a world that shows players the justification, reason, and consequences of war, instead they've managed to convinced players that you can start a war with something so petty as "we just don't like you" with no accountability. Then they flame these hatred by having one side commit terrorist attacks -- chemical bombing at the Wrathgate, mana bombing of Theramore, the burning of Tedrassil, chemical use in Lordaeron, etc. -- so any players who has character on that side might feel victimized and betrayed. The whole games is toxic because it is designed to be toxic.
@ZepLIVE Can i say something on 22:00? Yes, you are correct. The element of choice is there. it exist, you can choose to bring anyone in a raid. But, what Madseason is saying is.. the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERBASE will bring someone who is heavily geared and experianced over some random person whom they once had fun with. BECAUSE, people wanted a smooth efficient dungeon/raid run OR they just wanted to get carried so they can get the loot at the end as oppose to HAVING FUN. THE END GOAL JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
![Warcraft 30th ANNIVERSARY DIRECT! | Zepla watches Blizzard Celebration Stream [World of Warcraft]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SKLXmWyNLDY/mqdefault.jpg)
![Warcraft 30th ANNIVERSARY DIRECT! | Zepla watches Blizzard Celebration Stream [World of Warcraft]](/img/tr.png)
![CLASSIC Still a TOP MMO?! | Zepla reacts to WillE’s video [World of Warcraft]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/p_cYRy_VDVg/mqdefault.jpg)
![FFXIV CONTENT CYCLE | Zepla watches MrHappy’s Video [Dawntrail]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/URBoii3rvzg/mqdefault.jpg)
Zepla, what you said at 22:40, I could not disagree with you more. My bf and I quit WoW last year. We had built a guild (we were the guild leaders) that had lasted for more than 10 years. Our guild moto was 'real life comes first', we actually helped new players learn the game and their class. We were welcoming to all and worked around any rl challenges they might have. It was important to me because I'm autistic. We constantly stated that we were not a hardcore guild. And that worked as a foundation for years. All it took was one group of people in the guild, to form a click and decide they didn't like how we focused on having a fun and friendly oriented group. Instead they wanted us to transform it into a progressive, hard core raiding guild. And as you state that people should do, they left the guild to form their own (which didn't last more than 6 months) but they destroyed our guild in process. It wasn't enough to simply leave. They spread lies and rumors, and cause a bunch of mess. They started sexually harassing our members and posting vile and explicit things in our guild chat and our discord channel. We made complaints to Blizzard and they did nothing, even though the actions of these people broke Blizzard rules and in a few cases were illegal in any country. It got so bad that one of our members had to get the police involved in real life! The people that did this had been part of a our guild for quite some time. They knew what our guild was about and we thought they were our friends. What changed? We weren't progressing fast enough or far enough for them. They started complaining and point fingers at our members who they deemed were slacking and began demanding that we kick these people out of the guild. We refused and explained once again what our guild was about. We encouraged them that if we did not fit them then they should find a guild that better fit them. It wouldn't have been an issue. We understood that our guild didn't fit the needs of every person. But that's when they started all the crap ... obviously we kicked them. But it didn't stop them. They continued to harass our guild. All I'm saying is what you state is short sighted. It's not as simple as you put it. Yeah, sure, when pugging a group what you say might work. But don't think it can't happen in a guild setting. Because it does and the main reason seems to be because people get greedy and no longer care about the group. It's no longer about having fun with friends. It's about what they can get and using others to get it. Then it becomes a game of trolling, because they think it's funny. Unfortunately, our experience is not an exception. You need only to look online for stories. It's the way the game is built that encourages this kind of behavior. Why do you think WoW doesn't have housing? Because they don't want people to do anything else but raid. They have stated that. They wanted WoW to be more like an e-sport. But that's why WoW has become toxic. What you said ignores all of us who went through hell because of assholes, and somehow blames us for their bad behavior 😢 ... just wanted to add one more thing. Our guild regularly did mythic raiding. It's not like we weren't good. We just included people who were not always geared the best or had the best numbers. So we progressed slower. That was what these people were pissed about =/
I'm fairly new to modern WoW. I queued up to tank a heroic earlier today. I get called a stupid tank during the first pull. I have no idea why - we cleared the pull pretty fast with no deaths.
I immediately drop group and went to go do a Delve instead.
In 4800 hours of FFXIV, I never saw anyone berate a new player.
Become toxic? When wasn't it? I played from burning crusade to the shadowlands. And unless I was playing with a guild group it was always toxic.
IKR? Wow is patient 0 when it comes to the toxicity in MMO's. It's always been that way, and then it spread.
having played at least since pandaria... i can say it's gotten worse since then. it's always been full of people with no life who feel they have the right to be mean to anyone in their general vicinity over it, but the cultures so bad that i just won't play anymore. like i would argue it is outright difficult to find people in wow who are enjoyable to spend time with let alone do anything in game with. helping people also just isn't rewarded socially or by the game they way it is in, like, final fantasy, where 'helping each other' is a core theme of the entire game.
it sucks bc i actually miss and am nostalgic over wow. but anytime i try to play it most of the fun comes from that surge of nostalgia, after which i'll be bored and too put off by the community to try to do anything about it. playing classic recently, i couldn't even get a dungeon group together to do a single one.
I think mad is running out of video ideas
Wasn't toxic for me back when i started in TBC. I was playing like shit and people invited me to raids and stuff, never told me i was garbage. I noticed the game getting more toxic when mythic+ was introduced.
@@zagorim7469 must have been one of the lucky ones. 😆
WoW players have always been toxic. Had a guy the other night in a raid literally admit that he liked being a jerk essentially because he couldn't be one at work. So to him its ok to treat people behind keyboards like garbage because he can't in person. What a wonderful person. I have played since Vanilla this is the norm. It shouldn't be the norm but it is.
i played wow for the first time last month and went with classic. the player base gets mad at you for rolling on everything which i didn't know at the time. i get that wow classic refuses to update its loot rules but these things don't get explained to you until you go through it and make someone mad. it's a fault of the game.
I think especially classic/vanilla players assume that there no new players. :D There are and were players that did what you did on purpose to disenchant stuff or get all gems that are normally greed for everybody. Sorry that you had a bad experience on your first run. :(
I got flamed for rolling Off spec tank armor for my DK because i just didn't get any gear for that whole run. When that tank really didn't need the gear. I wanted some progress for spending about 4 hours trying to find a group for TOGC . It was my first raid and I just wanted some gear so I can get invited to other raids alot easier
@@minementalx i had my partner with me and they explained to me why they were mad and the general loot rules. it was just frustrating because i had no idea you aren't supposed to roll on everything. then on the next run i rolled on something that was an upgrade for me but someone still got mad because they it wasn't plate gear and i was a paladin.
i get why people would be mad at people rolling on this stuff cause they sell and disenchant but it was just ridiculous lol.
overall i still had a good time with my partner.
@@Craytonex that sucks. i get just wanting to feel some progression in the form of gear. i dont think there is anything wrong with rolling for something you intend to use. obviously people feel way too strongly about this stuff. its just impossible to gauge what someone's reaction will be until you roll and then poof you are getting flamed. as long as you have a good reason to roll it shouldn't be an issue. hope you find some good groups c:
possibility for negative progress in m+ and any mistakes leading to that, plus huge dps waitlists where you are just a number and everyone is easily replaceable is why.
@5:04 Zepla hit the nail on the head. Games generally are not toxic, players are. The more you have to interact with random players and the more your "success" is tied to the performance of those random people the more likely it is you will run into toxic behavior.
Yet wow has integrated shit like mythic io score, which is toxic. If the class balance sucks and m io score is in your face whos fault is it that a person playing a c tier spec with sub 2000 score takes literally an hour to get accepted into anything above a +2. Mythic io score ruined this game imo.
@@slimfastsubaru2043 Then do things to reduce your reliance on strangers in LFG. Do the things within your control to reduce reliance on PUG's. Blaming others when there are things you could be doing to better your situation is in many cases childish and entitled nonsense. Is it easy, no, but it can be done. Will it take effort? Absolutely. If you don't want to put in the effort thats fine, I don't want to put in the effort to be a Michelin Star Chef, but I am not going to complain about restaurants not hiring me as chef.
@Machete__Squad lol I'm at 2400 rn working on 10s. It's not a me issue, but it is an issue for anyone that can't no life the game from day 1 or likes a spec that isn't great. Only entitled one here it sounds like is you.
@Machete__Squad also wtf else do they do? They are sitting there trying to get into low keys, that's literally the thing to do. Tf do you mean "don't want to put in the effort"? You're a joke.
@@slimfastsubaru2043 There is nothing in the game that limits who can be invited to a certain lvl key based on their score. That's an individual player's choice. As for not being "meta", again that's a function of the player deciding how important a tier list is with regard to what is and is not viable, despite any evidence to the contrary. If a player can't get accepted, they can always run their own key with whomever they choose.
When realms were stuck to their own doings, things could still be elitist, but wouldn't say toxic. If you wanted to get into raids, you did attunement quests, you found like minded guilds. Spamming in World and Trade for Heroics you needed to have a decent reputation, and not limited to your ability to DPS, Tank, or Heal. If you routinely behaved poorly, you'd more often than not struggle to find quality groups. While those who stayed alive, or attempted to ask for help, would more often than not be supported or helped through a run.
Realistically the only change that truly happens, is when society itself matures, so of course, "good luck there."
Exactly! I couldn't agree more. I remember those days. I miss it so much!
This is how a game dies. If established players become toxic POS's and pushes away new players learning how to play or people who have been away from the game for awhile, the game will eventually die from attrition.
16:30 life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination - motto of the knights radiant. Its in “the way of kings” by brandon sanderson. I really love that book and the series its in.
I've actually found WoW to be less toxic than when I left the game 8 years ago, I came back for TWW very reluctantly and honestly have been pleasantly surprised at how welcoming most of the community is(of course there are still some assholes out there)but most of the people I've ran into have been really helpful....I'm having a blast so far
out of curiosity, what server? anytime i've rejoined i've genuinely struggled to find a social atmosphere that wasn't abrasive or hostile...
@@jeshirekitenkatt1212 well let’s see….I have a toon on gurubashi and a few on laughing skull..went out mount farming for old Blanchy and was with a group of complete strangers and we were cracking jokes and having a general good time..earlier today…like I said I’ve run into a few A holes out there but for everyone of them I’ve run into ten people who are genuinely nice….and I really try to reciprocate that
Yeah I have to agree. I started playing in WoD, so modern WoW era and I only noticed the playerbase growing less toxic over time. Which makes sense I suppose with wow's aging average median playerbase and people generally tending to mellow out as they get older
Any game with a sizable PVP or where other people's performance will severely lessen your rewards will become toxic. WoW has both.
The one saving grace for TWW is that delves exist. Gameplay has been stress free away from group content. Not to say that great guilds exist. But for 80 percent pugs of normal players, it's great.
One of the biggest things we as players can do to combat elitism and toxicity and keep gaming going is to self-reflect on our first runs of duties. When I first started playing FFXIV my computer was in the process of wearing out it was in this moment I found a group of friends in keeper of the lake that made such an impact on my life with their unwillingness to kick me or let me leave the dungeon and before we left that dungeon we added each other to the friends list and they all led me through the rest of the msq when they could and more than anything helped me chose a computer that could better handle running the game. When my health really started going bad and vision problems became a problem these people are on discord checking on me everyday. Myself I don't look at games as virtual worlds anymore if consumed properly just an expansion of the real world that allows us to meet people we would never meet
Kicking someone for a bug in a normal, is an instant kick from me.
Always has been. Wtf we talking about, lmao
Talking to a LoL player is like talking to a crack addict. "Yes, I smoke crack every day. No, I would not suggest you try it."
ff player playing wow for the first time. My first normal raid the lead was kicking people for doing less damage than the tanks. Like, what? We were doing just fine and flying through the mobs and bosses. it made the experience stressful and annoying. **edit to note that I didn't have the mod to show damage so i was stressing not knowing if i was doing well or not LOL
yea i'd tbfh argue that addons for seeing ur dps in wow are straight up a driver of toxicity in the game. i have never once in all my time playing ff been given crap for how much damage i was doing so long as i was actually doing something.
there is a video, also by mad season i think, about why it's straight up 'rude to be bad at the game' in wow. it's a good video that i think covers a lot of what's gone wrong here in terms of player attitudes towards each other. i don't even recommend people get dps meters anymore, i think it just ruins the ability to enjoy the game as a game and not a job with strict expectations for performance.
EDIT: OH it's mentioned here, it's folding idea's video!
@@jeshirekitenkatt1212 I would personally only recommend DPS meters when u reach like a boss in a raid where your just stuck there but have no reason why which happened to me and i downloaded it and saw "Oh me and this other dude isnt up to par with the rest of the group to clear this boss, I will have to step up my game and focus more or learn about my class more before the next raid" It's all about how you use it, the DPS meters isnt made to be a bad thing but alot of people have no idea how to use them to optimize their damage even more. One good example of how to be better is just looking at the other DPS that is the same class and spec as you and looking at what they use more than you
Yeah, but how much lower than the tanks? In some extreme aoe situations, certain tanks can pump out a lot of DPS. But in all others there's just no reason for it to happen unless those DPS aren't even trying.
Blizzard has not bounced back well, not 5 months ago they killed Overwatch 2 and did their fans worse than any company has ever done in years. Are we just talking wow in specific? cuz Blizzard has been a shit show nonstop for years now
LMFAO ZEPLA IS THE 5% OF THE AUDIANCE THAT DOES NOT HAVE BALLS LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO
And she's probably also one of the small percent of American women with a full, untrimmed bush. I mean, her reaction to the ad makes it seem like that was the first time she EVER heard of the concept of people grooming their privates! Makes me wonder if she's even other adult humans naked?
This is my personal experience with raiding last times I tried back between Draenor and Legion.
Every day I come home with a refreshed mindset, ready to have another crack at the raid, willing to give players whom I meet for the first time the chances for mistakes since I myself do mistakes too.
Sadly, I meet constant toxic behaviour, be it an elitist or someone who refuses to learn after a few mistakes or simply someone who's here to ruin everyone else's say.
Only after weeks of frustration do I ever get a once in a bluemoon raid that plays well and is wholesome to be with.
Am sorry Zepla, but I disagree with you on the "You get toxic players because you are looking for them" playing with random groups should not always end up with have a heap of trash players at every corner ready to ruin everyone else's day who came to have fun. When people say the community has a lot of toxic players am pretty sure a large % of them mean it and are tired of it as I was back in those expansions.
One does not have to feel being pushed into a wall where they have to get in a guild. I won't deny that being in a guild can have a lot of benefits, granted that one ends up in a good guild. I have been in few good guilds before. But I also have been in many terrible guilds as well.
Lets not also forget the insane list of adds you need to use in order to be accepted in a raid group. I personally think stuff like that should have been banned a long time ago. It does nothing but create more toxicity and leaves a large gap where new players would like to raid without such addons. "Yeah but there thise groups who plays without em" I dont think anyone would like to incapacitate themselves to do that. They would rather use third party tools to make raiding easier. And WoW devs have been making new raids with these adds in mind.
That being said, I have no clue what's been happening recently in the raiding community now, but currently playing warwithin and nearing the max level, and I'll see for myself how things are. I would love to be proven wrong truly. That I could just play without addons, that I can find a mostly good groups that dont mind wipes and are here to have fun.
I'll be one of those people, but I nostalgically remember when Zepla was titled the heart of FFXIV in that Endwalker song collab.
the Folding Ideas video is a good follow-up, because it deep-dives the system incentives vs. player motivation a lot further.
Not toxic if you play solo!
That "Fus-Ro_Dah!" gave me chills😱
Thank you for this video. The ad was very amusing and the main topic thought provoking. I didn't think that the logic always followed but that's just me. I suppose I am one of the free play sorts who plays for fun. To me, if it's not fun, then it's work and I retired a few years ago. In thinking about the emotional attachment, I think for me it was night elves because bfa was such a downer for them and me. SL and DF did nothing to change that. For me there was no real resolution for what happened to them and the books almost seemed like holocaust denial.
I started doing dungeons (pugs) in Wrath when they introduced the dungeon finder. These pugs were not toxic and the memory of what they were is why I don't do pugs anymore. I continued playing classic for a while but the instrumental player fascists began to show up towards the end ('if you don't have your world buffs, you don't deserve any raid loot' kind of thing). I blame the Icy Veins type web sites because their so-called experts gave said fascists a holy book for their inquisition. I've left blizzard for good and now get my wow fix from private servers.
It's longer, but Zepla should watch Folding Ideas' video on "Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft"; it's amazing.
I would never play WoW again, partly because I have no faith in Blizzard, and partly because I find the community, as a whole, completely toxic.
Ngl i can easily tank whatever toxicity wow had for the past 18 years. 2 weeks in xiv endgane and that was enough.
Gw2 def has the best level of toxicity. A healthy balance of shit talk and very little drama
I never played WOW because my stereotype of a WOW players was fat, old and mean dudes who play the game 24 hrs and think they are gods for being good at it treating others like shit. This is literally my reasoning for never trying WOW.
Honestly in my years of playing WoW, I find those people to be few and far between. Like, I can recall only once whilst doing M+ where a group has been like extremly toxic. Although tbf I haven't played it for 3 years, so idk if things are worse now than before, and maybe I got immune to it to the point that I stopped noticing it or just repressed it. Point is, I have met more nice people that I became friends with than toxic idiots :)
But! If you can get some friends to experience the game with you for the first time, I think you could have a pretty good time doing dungeons together and avoid randoms all together, if that is your cup of tea. \o/
My wife just recently started playing and I would say from her POV that those type of people barely appear. Maybe it's cause its easy to find videos of those people cause negativity attracts attention but there are far more friendly and nice people in Guilds more than people realize. Alot of the people currently who have complained are usually not in a guild and just try to PUG which is never the solution for higher content so its a very weird POV when someone tells you its bad cause odds are that they arent good at communicating hence never being in a guild or never trying to be part of a group and complaining its toxic
RIP FFXIV
I think there is a little more to this then more people = more assholes. There is a bunch od people who think they are way better then everyone they actually are and they make it their mission to refuse aby form of responsibility. Someone new to group content will meet plenty od them doing low level keys. No wonder that their perception of m+ community is so negative.
lol it's like being a lefty watching people fight over the right handed stuff.
I think my problem with madseason's videos now is that he is recycling the same stuff he says in every video and then randomly he will bring up the WoW token stuff which is like WE GET IT, BAD FOR COMMUNTIY BLAH BLAH BLAH but it just feels like he is saying this in all his videos the same way but with different words now
My lady of reason....
Why is he playing Factorio music over his video, does he think it sounds ominous or something, just sounds fun to me.
Mad season is back? Guess I should maybe go resubscribe to him.
Madseason just needs to let go, like he claimed he was going to.
idk how you could live life withOUT shaved balls tbh
So don't engage in high-end M+? Already ahead of the curve by choosing not to participate in that content. People have mostly been pretty friendly, or just silent in what I come across.
HA HA You have your shirt on backwards!!!!! What a NOOB!!!! lol . Just kidding love you bun.
If he wasn't so one-sided and biased for classic resp. against retail.
Classic/SoD also has a lot of drama surrounding group requirements etc, similar to parts of retail.
He has always been like this and is kind of a running joke whenever you watch his videos if he mentions the WoW token or shows a picture of the WoW token means he is gonna recycle what he said in previous shit too
yes its common
"Has become?"
WOW is the embodiment of TOXIC itself. Like whut.
i was kicked just recent bc i apparently stole gear from someone like um srry we both wear the same shit an i won the roll was also kicked for being high dps as a healer today lol btw no a soul died the whole run i was in lol
coming back from ffxiv and when I joined a group and did "o/" I was immediately kicked...
You trolling
Nah that probably happened lmaoooo
@@umomo1947 😆 how dare you be polite and interact with others!
Cap on that one
Pure cap but good ragebait tho
If y'all need a video explaining why wow is toxic then y'all haven't been playing the game
Zep play league with me!!!!!
League really is a game that you play when you are at your worst usually. I really feel like when I am not playing league I am a better person. Sure other games like Dota, CS or WoW can be toxic, but where in those games I am still taken aback when someone is toxic and I am like wow, that is surprising, why is that person so toxic ? Whereas when I play league, i am surprised when ppl arent toxic, immediately at the slightest mistake you assume you will get flamed it is the only game I think where ppl preemtively mute all communication from the whole team even the pings. If someone is toxic I am not shocked, I am like ye, as expected or ye that makes sense it is league after all. Makes me not even care about toxicity in the end that It is not even a factor that I consider when someone says a game is toxic. It is like it cant be as bad as league. The occasional toxicity in games like WoW cant even phase me.
WoW is toxic from the very beginning all thanks to faction and race hate. Blizz is trying really hard to remove that animosity between factions and races because the game has become the breeding ground for racist individuals and domestic terrorist and it's leaking out in the real world. Anything PvP is inherently toxic because people often needs to be reminded that it's a sport, it's just a game, but when you have a game based on hatred, violence, and war -- well, you get toxicity. Blizz failed to create a world that shows players the justification, reason, and consequences of war, instead they've managed to convinced players that you can start a war with something so petty as "we just don't like you" with no accountability. Then they flame these hatred by having one side commit terrorist attacks -- chemical bombing at the Wrathgate, mana bombing of Theramore, the burning of Tedrassil, chemical use in Lordaeron, etc. -- so any players who has character on that side might feel victimized and betrayed. The whole games is toxic because it is designed to be toxic.
@ZepLIVE Can i say something on 22:00? Yes, you are correct. The element of choice is there. it exist, you can choose to bring anyone in a raid. But, what Madseason is saying is.. the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERBASE will bring someone who is heavily geared and experianced over some random person whom they once had fun with. BECAUSE, people wanted a smooth efficient dungeon/raid run OR they just wanted to get carried so they can get the loot at the end as oppose to HAVING FUN. THE END GOAL JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
8:17 omg I am dying laughing at work rn 😂😂😂