Alice was in love with the idea of her coven being perfect and happy. Future Bella was more important than Present Bella. Because Future Bella looked so happy in her vision, anyways, right? What does it matter that this teenager is uncomfortable, she'll make their family sooo perfect.
Yeah that's why Alice was going to be so cocky was that she could always look to the Future but I do think she genuinely loved her family so she had that at least
Yeah it's kind of hard to escape Alice's charisma which isn't a bad thing necessarily until you actually have to look past the charisma and see what she was actually doing to Bella. I mean I'm sure she did but she's vastly cared about her family and herself more
Dom Noble said that before in his reviews, Meyer has quite the unused talent for writing horror i.e. the gruesome birthing, the implied Volturi eating tourists scene (where Bella goes from 😱 to 🤷♀️ in like 3 seconds because theehee not her problem), the catcalling guys and stalkerdward coming to the rescue.
During the confrontation scene in New Moon at Bella's house, Alice says to Jacob, after MONTHS of ghosting Bella "Well, I'm not going to hurt her!" and I really sincerely wish Jacob had said "You already have."
I taught he was like I think the first time I said it in my head and I really taught he had said it until i rewatched it and saw that I had said it not Jacob and yes he should've said cause she didn't hurt her physically but emotionally she did
and meanwhile in the book it's mentioned that the Forks gang (Angela, Jessica, Eric) actually spent a good while (I wanna say at least a couple of months, can't remember that bit that well, but long enough that they basically had to give up) trying to help Bella bounce back out of her depression, but Alice couldn't answer a single freaking email
@@lighthouse-witchto be fair, Bella knew her emails weren’t going through. Alice never got them (at least according to the movies, I don’t remember the books)
they did the right thing.. Bella needed to stop contact and move on with her life, Bella was obsessed, she didn't accept 'no' as an answer.. also it's not their responsibility her mental health, her father is the one responsible for not sending her to therapy. Imagine you want to leave your partner and they start "if you leave me I'm going to end myself"
I recently saw the first two Twilight movies and found it really funny how much more chemistry Bella had with her school friends and Jacob's group than with Alice. Those actors were carrying those characters on their backs.
The problem is with Bella secrets and awkwardness I knew that school friendship would die out. Her chemistry with Alice is fine it's just that Alice is very dominant and knows how to get her way with a smile on her face
Alice only came for Bella after Edward was in danger and only then. Girl is the whole reason Bella is even involved. She CHOSE this direction. She's constantly having visions and chasing the outcome that best suits her. She began the day she saw Jasper. Twilight is really Alice's story. Wanted family and to be happy. And she got it. Saving only who she wanted to and making people choose the choice she wants them to. She positions her favorites to do what comes out best for her.
That makes the idea of Alice being in the Volturi twice as scary. Because if she was captured by them and her only option is to help them or die, their power would be unstoppable
@serenitymoon825 that's the thing though. She chose the path that would make sure she didnt have to go with them. She made sure that future wouldn't happen unless she wanted it to. She has a lot more control than you'd think. She's either, already part of their coven and using the Cullens for her own experiments, i.e. Rotisserie Chicken. Or she's seen what would put the Volturi on their knees and Aro is afraid of her. It probably has to do with her ability being directly used by them too
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, but Alice came to check on Bella when BELLA was in danger, BEFORE she had any visions of Edward being in danger.
@Itsintheway23 but she still didn't even contact her "friend" (bella) after the cullens had moved... like, ok, Edward doesn't want to be Bella's boyfriend anymore, but why she couldn't be friends with Alice anymore? so one thing is actually tied to the other? Alice only cares about Bella at all when Edward is involved?? she could be in touch with Bella even in the distance, but she chose not to
Another thought--isn't Alice's recklessness, pushiness, and disregard for Bella and her true feelings/wellbeing reminiscent of Renee? I wonder how much of Bella's decisions and vulnerability to manipulation and love-bombing stems from her childhood setting her up for unhealthy ideas about "normal" relationship dynamics after being responsible for Renee for so long.
Actually, I did a personality analysis of the characters. Jasper and Charlie are the same kind of person in very different walks of life. Alice and Renee are the same kind of person in very different walks of life. So what we have with these two couples is a case of when "opposites attract" works and an example of when it doesn't.
A lot. Bellas cptsd of being a parentified child set her up to dysfunctional love pretty early on. She desired the picture perfect family and would probably even disagree that Alice manipulated her because it seems so distinctivly her. She took up most of the housework from a very young age, supported Renee emotionally and then was shipped off to forks, because her mother wanted to be with her new boyfriend. That's why Edwards break up was so devastating for her. She remembered unconsciously that her parents psychologically left her as a child. Bella wanted this never received unconditional love so badly she couldn't see the red flags. We seek the relationships we didn't already heal. How alone must've Bella felt under all this "not like other girls" crap?
@@not-a-ghost2206well basically Bella says that she sent herself but let's face it if she feel emotionally neglected and unwanted it was basically her mother unconsciously sending her away
Alice surely had a vision about how Bella would react to being tricked into going to prom, right?? And Edward by extension would have known that she would be upset, right? Yikes, those two are menaces, especially since Edward plays dumb later and asks why she's crying!
Agreed, like I can see why she’s manipulative toward Bella but I also will say that’s the point of her power, she manipulates time in a way by seeing the future and changing it, that’s what the butterfly affect is, doing something differently to change the final outcome but I also think she only became her friend friend after Bella got pregnant with renesmee cause she couldn’t see her future, and maybe that’s why later on she tones it down a bit.
Nah Alice can't see everything but she definitely saw Bella on future as a cullen so that why she basically did everything to bring it to pass. She's not a villain just has a screwd up POV
she actually did, that's why she put waterproof mascara/makeup on bella. in the first book in the epilogue, bella says (quote): "I’d guessed there was some kind of occasion brewing. But prom! That was the furthest thing from my mind. The angry tears rolled over my cheeks. I remembered with dismay that I was very uncharacteristically wearing mascara. I wiped quickly under my eyes to prevent any smudges. My hand was unblackened when I pulled it away; maybe Alice had known I would need waterproof makeup."
So overall Stephanie Meyers did a pretty good job at adaptating her journey as a mormon through Twilight, it just reflects how manipulative the mormons can be instead of showing the good sides in an edgy way like she intended
I've been saying. Bella was manipulated into that family. She was a teenager who fell in love for the first time and she had no business making such insanely huge decisions for herself. Edward and Rosalie were the only ones who seemed aware of the gravity of those choices. But Alice was telling her it's all gonna be sunshine and rainbows, so Bella would only see the positives and didn't think too much about the negatives
I read a fanfic like this recently where Jasper lays it all out to Jacob and Bella, how he hoped since Edward had the ability to look into another person’s mind that he would be able to help Alice distinguish her mind between reality and fantasy but instead Alice and Edward just feed into each other’s delusions.
Alice mindset was to make Bella look good, I think her character gave her that gift. She was controlling outcomes though with good intentions and ended up with the ability to see outcomes
@not-a-ghost2206 she liked the shoes I think but Bella doesn't know how to set boundaries or Alice is just that good, idk but I get what you mean about the shoes
The only one in the Cullen family who cared for Bella's welfare was Rosalie. She warned Bella that being a vampire was something to regret and protected Bella's wishes and child when Edward and Jacob ignore the fact Bella wanted to give birth and both guys wanted to kill the baby. Yes, Rosalie did want a baby and might've intended to take the kid for herself if Bella died, but she still wasn't as manipulative or self-serving as the rest of the Cullens. I think Carlisle turned Rosalie because he wanted to and could, not because he lost control of his bloodlust. He was old enough and experienced enough by then to keep control of his thirst. He wanted her as a mate for Edward because of her beauty, but Edward wasn't interested, so stealing Rosalie's humanity and choice of whether to become a vampire was a pointless and cruel act. Yes, she eventually found a mate for herself, but that doesn't excuse or change the fact she was robbed of her mortality and desire for a normal life and family by the very man who calls himself her adoptive father. The Cullens always did what was best for themselves even if it destroyed or devastated other people.
Rosalie was dying. She had been brutally and savagely attacked by Royce and the other guys. Carlisle turned her to save her life. And I think he also hoped she would be a wife for Edward. And to be fair Rosalie begged him to turn and save Emmett when he was dying. I think the main reason she objected to Bella becoming a vampire was because she was choosing to end her human life. There was no threat to her life (until later of course). Where for the rest of them their human lives were over. They were dying and it was becoming a vampire or death. But Bella could live a normal life. That's why Rosalie objected.
You may agree with me or not but I find Carlisle a hypocrite. He believes in God and believe that their soul is on the line by becoming a vampire, yet he turned more than one human into a vampire mostly without the consent of the human he is turning. He corrupted the souls of his so called family that he love. Stephanie Meyer showed the compassionate side of him, but he also corrupts. He decided for Rosalie, Esme, then him and Rosalie decided for Emett. He turned Edward even though it was his mother's wish, Carlisle still know that it will not be good for Edward or to anyone's souls to be a vampire. It's happy ever after in the end but, he is responsible for the souls of the people he turned once their perfect life on earth is over.
Rosalia was turned cause she was dying, it had nothing to do with loss of control, plus She was ready to let Bella die for the baby while Alice wanted the baby dead for Bella to live, no character was perfect
@@Richie-rs3wp Cartisle turned them believing he was doing the right thing, I think he believed he was saving them. Not an hypocrite just a man with too much compassion he didn't know when to say no to saving livesm
Arguably Jacob was her best friend and knew and loved and appreciated her for who she is the best, but unfortunately for the story they turned him into a predator and then made him marry her daughter. And Bella wanted to be with the rich popular Immortal people so she just changed up everything about herself in order to fit in with them instead of addressing her own maladaptive self depreciation and depression
Nah Bella is a case of I don't belong until she sees the unusual and then feels at home. Jacob was her rational friend though according how it ended he was drawn to her cause of her daughter so that another thing
Huh never consciously thought about it but she is definitely Edward’s bff. Everything she does serves to keep Bella sane or ok for Edward’s sake really. Also where was she when Bella was so depressed she was diving off cliffs and other stuff Edit: yes you hit it on the head, she straight up abandoned her during new moon too!!
I think a lot of things she does she thinks it right, she left the town with her family to keep Bella safe, came back when she saw Bella die I still like her but yes her character is a screwed
Alice was my favourite character when I read Twilight for the first time. And she was my biggest disappointment when I re-read the serie as an adult. She never care what Bella likes or want to do. But I must to say there was one thing that bothered me in Alice even when I was teenager - she was practically absent during Bella's pregnancy. Edward and Jacob hated her decision to keep the baby but they both take care of her. And Alice, her "best friend", was missing because she had a headache. She couldn't handle that she doesn't see a future so she totally ignored dying friend and wife of her favourite brother. I expected something more from best friend. Then she just came back when Bella became vampire and acted like nothing happen. Alice was Bella's friend only when she was comfortable and could use her visions to predict Bella's reactions.
Wait if she had a headache and she avoided Bella, doesn't that mean the headache is connected to it and it avoided them until the baby was born? I don't think it made her a villain she knew Bella was safe
@@florencembah2626you are incapable of not replying to any comment on what went wrong with twilight aren’t you 😂 like debating with a few people is one thing but under every comment is wild
Rosalie was the best of cullens. Alice is just Edward’s wingman. And don’t even get me started on the RACIST STUFF OMG it’s crazy how normalized it was and Bella never stood up for her friend or the quileutes who were always good to her!! And new moon was my fav book bcs of the normalcy Bella was beginning to have by getting a job and hanging out w friends and being cared for properly by Jacob lol
I was an edgy goth teen when twilight came out and I dont know if people remember but there was a whole GENRE of toxic supernatural vampire (or werewolf) romance books you could read BEFORE Twilight was published. My friends & I were super into them. They were toxic AF. The more twisted & horror coded the better. At first we LOVED Twilight because it fit right in... but there was a point were there was a visible shift in attitudes towards the series (especially after the movies debuted). People were treating it as a sincere genuine romance to be idolized... which was shocking (and also meant we couldnt read the books publicly anymore without getting mocked for being love brained. Very unfair). I read Bella as a witty & heavily sarcastic kid with a death wish (goth coded) in a tragedy where she is stalked and manipulated by a murderer into turning into a powerful blood thirsty monster (good shit). I was baffled at the love triangle intensity bc theyre both terrible people who put her in active physical danger. It wasnt meant to be taken as genuine romance... or so I thought... by now ive accepted It was always meant to be a love story and I was in the wrong thinking it was self aware. Glad others are finally catching on how messed up the themes are. Thats why gothy teens loved it. Its a better horror than a love story and Bella is more interesting if you read her as sarcastic
Yes, Alice is hella manipulative. The other thing i noticed about her when i read the books is that her insistence on dressing up Bella and throwing parties for her means that Bella simultaneously gets to be well dressed, attractive, and show the outward signs of popularity by having well attended parties, while also being Not Like Other Girls because she doesn't really want to have to do those things ﾆ
On point yes! And this tool is used by so many romance novels authors, how many books I read where some friend or relative gives the main girl an amazingly beautiful dress for an event where by chance the lover will see her, or a friend doing her hair or makeup. It would be somehow ‚shameful‘ if she wanted to make herself pretty intentionally to seduce her lover but if it’s not her fault it’s ok. It’s done to realize all the princess fantasies while also making it appear by accident 🤣
@@Marivi247 it's also part of how young women supposedly need to be passive. In reality, if you want something, or want to be something, you have to make it happen for yourself. But these so-called protagonists have things fall in their lap because someone else does everything for them. They get to be successful without actually having to be active in their own life.
I never saw Alice as manipulative for this exact reason: Alice is literally serving the plot as a secret-wish-fulfiller for Bella (Bella=Stephenie Meyer=the reader). Bella/SM/the reader actually WANTS all of this stuff: heels, wedding, prom, etc. So even when i first read it as a teen, i knew Alice was barely an actual character and more like a plot device.
It's like a wattpad fanfiction: "OH NO!!! My mom sold me into slavery to One Direction!! This is SO BAD and HORRIBLE!!!! What will i do now???" Like, can you really blame "the mom" and call her a sociopath? She's doing exactly what the protagonist wants but says she doesn't want!
The problem is that Bella is a very depressive, very codependent person with little to no self esteem. She has childood traumas and issues that she never resolved so she needed a man that will come save her from her boring, empty life, loveless life. She needed a family of beautiful freaks that are different like she considers herself to be different, because she desperately craved a place she could belong. She has profound abandonment traumas so when Edward broke up with her and the Cullens left, it retraumatized her because this was like a repeat of her parents divorcing and she becoming emotionally abandoned again. Her mom sadly was was an emotionally absent mother, Bella had to parent and coddle her. Charlie wasn't with her in her childhood/early teens and when she moved to Forks we don't see Charlie being emotionally close with her at all. So Bella has this deep trauma of worthlesness and abandonment, so when she meet Edward and fell in love, she was extremely codependent and had a strong emotional connection with him and his family. Bella had finally someone who could take care of her and love her, so she abandoned herself and became obsessed with Edward. But this relationship is unhealthy, because it's not normal that when Edward breaks up with her and leaves, she becames a hollow shell that can't function. Bella even desrcibes in New Moon that Edward was like her drug or something. Either way, Bella has extreme clinical depression in New Moon and is traumatized because of this sudden loss of connection, security, and affection that he had with Edward. This is an repeat of the trauma when her parents abandoned her. That's why New Moon was extremely painful and traumatic for Bella. She even describes frequently that she feels that a hole has been punched through her chest, the sudden loss of love and connection, plus she has pstd and nightmares. Also she has little to no self esteem and can't see her qualities at all. Edward always tells her that she doesn't see herself clearly in the mirror. This stems from her deep worthlesness and terrible perception of herself. This happened because of her abandonment issues. When a child is abandoned, she believes that she must be unworthy or that something is deeply wrong with her, otherwise that wouldn't be hsppening. So Bella has all this deep unconscious beliefs and behaviors that shape her personality and life, that's why she became obsessed with Edward and becoming a vampire. She will finally belong with people who are different like her and as a vampire she would be worthy of them. She will finally be loved and protected like she always needed it. Bella needed therapy to heal from her childhood wounds and codependency, also loving involved parents. Sadly, this never happened if it did, Bella wouldn't have ended with the Cullens.
You summarized it very very well!!! And YES, the whole family, directly or indirectly, had a part in she wanting to become a vampire, bcs it was not only a promise of a "loving man" but ALSO the promise of a loving, caring family, where she could belong and feel secure and protected. If Edward didn't have the cullens, Bella would probably still be manipulated by him, but it would be less easy for him
It's so hard to view Alice as a "real" character instead of a plot device character.... It was obvoius to me even when I first read the book as a teen, that everything Alice "did" was secretly what Bella/the reader wanted. The reader wanted Bella to be quirky and not like other girls, but also WANTED her to be popular, well dressed, married and conventionally attractive. When Alice "forces" Bella to do stuff she doesn't want to do, she's literally fulfilling her role as a plot device because the character of "Bella" can't be written well enough to realistically want to change and improve as a person, so she needs an outside "force" to make her do what the reader wants. Let's be honest here: when we were first reading it we didn't "notice" Alice was manipulative, because every time she forced Bella to look pretty or to go to the prom, in our heads we were thinking "hell yeah Alice! Make her do it!"
I do think that they were too pushy with Bella, but a lot of the reasons they did what they did was so she would have human experiences before she became a vampire which SHE was insisting on. And 17 year olds are still children making adult decisions. Alice is over the top with boundries though. And Edward dumped Bella like a toxic emo boy
If they carried about Bella at all, they wouldn't even manipulate her into wanting to be a vampire in first place. If bella wasn't able to know what human experiences were best for her to have, how could she even make an informed decision about becoming a vampire? So they (the cullens) only disregard what she wants when it's good and convenient for them, not Bella?
I think Alice is a typical tool used by the author to let the female main character be treated like a princess. It is a part of many romance novels, some relative or friend gives her an incredibly beautiful dress and of course her lover is enchanted when he sees her by chance in this dress. Or the typical scene where a best friend does her makeup. I feel these are used to make the girl seem not girly because somehow it would be shameful to wish for a fancy dress to impress the lover, while still making all of it happen 😅
I remember being confused during New Moon when she was sending Alice all those messages after Edward leaves bc they had basically no friend vibes before that. And if she was her friend in the first place, I think she would have responded to them somehow..
@@TheAsh-holeCharlie let his teenage daughter be with the man who hurt and abandoned her just like that, whose family is suspicious and didn't protect her daughter well. He also didn't suspect and ask more on what happened with Bella after the honeymoon as a normal good father will have funny feelings about the new set-up and his granddaughter growing too fast and being too close to a much older man, Jacob. As a cop, he should have question lots of things and call out how messy things are becoming with his daughter and grandchild because of the Cullens.
I think this is v reflective on Stephanie Myers perception of “real” female friendships. As a Mormon there’s really no one you can trust to have your best interest at heart as a woman. Even other women. Especially sisters in law. It’s only the best interest of the collective that matters (aka marrying u into the family). VERY Bella & Alice coded. Your closest friend still only cares as far as it makes u part of their family tree (no care if that’s what YOU want). Ex Mormon’s r often ex-communicated, matches how Alice leaves Bella in New Moon and ONLY comes back when it’s affecting Edward. No hate just some extra perspective
I have a weird theory that since Alice could see the future, she could calculate the decisions Edward should make to make Bella fall in love with him…and Bella is known for being stubborn so they played it in a way to make it seem like he didn’t want to turn her into a vampire and made himself look like the bad guy, knowing that she would appeal to that better than him chasing her…instead she chased him because he dangled the idea of being a vampire in a way that seemed that she couldn’t and shouldn’t have it….which made her want it a million times more…but if they gave her the option upfront she probably would’ve chose Jacob 🤯and Alice saw that, Edward even said it himself that visions are subjective depending on the decisions you make ….im convinced that they even worked with the vulturi too, informing them that she was immune to their powers, which probably made them want them to change her to see what kind of powers she could unlock if they changed her into a vampire…they constantly have the chess theme and symbols everywhere which symbolizes them playing chess with her mind
The Vulturi part doesn't make much sense. If the Vulturi were in on it WITH the Cullen's, then the Cullen's would have handed her over easily. Instead they risked their lives to keep her. If they cared about her powers, then they wanted those powers for themselves to have an advantage over the Vulturi. They didn't give Alice up, they didn't give Edward up, they aren't gonna give Bella up. All powerful assets that could potentially overthrow the Vulturi in the future. Edward always showed desdain for the Vulturi. He described them as vile and by consequence Bella hated them and feared them by default...that is counterproductive in the manipulative race IF they wanted to hand her over (which is the only way the Vulturi would be in on it). The other things you said. Yeah. I can see that.
Let's be honest, no one of the cullens has Bella's interest in heart. The one who comes the closest is Rosalie, but she only sees what she lost herself. Maybe deep down Emmett and Jasper, but because of his diet problem you cant really see that. Esmee just wants Carlsle to be happy. The only way he is happy is if Edward is happy. Alice just wants to have her 'perfect' world and her plaything. Emmett is neutral, it doesn't really matter for him and he just wants to help his family. Rosalie is the only one who really looks at Bella and wants to protect her from their world. Sure its because of her own selfess reasons, because she wants to be human, but she tries to keep Bella away from them and the danger they pose.
Replace her vampire visions with the Holy Ghost/the Spirit and she is just being a Mormon sister in law. Bella better get in line or else she's threatening her eternal family.
I don't remember much about the Twilight movies and I didn't read the books, but they isolated her from her friends and family. That's what abusers tend to do.
aint gonna lie to you, I read these books when they came out, I was in middle school. I ended up getting married in a fckn terrible marriage and accepting a thousand and one things I did not want for the "sake of love" -- these books made sure an entire generation of girls were *not* following what they wanted but were instead following the same misguided (mormon, sorry not sorry) 'path to purpose'.
Twilight blamed for bad marriages Should Joker and Harley be blamed for relationship woes too? Gee there is such a thing as fiction While they maybe more realistic than some They are FANTASY stories Can anyone hold these tales accountable as guidelines for normal healthy relationships? Guess there needs to be Disclaimers These are stories People have to have accountability for their own lives Should I base my friendships off Heckyl and Heckyl or Garfield Flintstones Harry Potter ? Fiction is labeled that for a reason
@@FrancineArcieri young people (aka the target audience of twilight) don't have such refined perception and are more easily influenced... it's also the way the media acts on our subconscious
@@FrancineArcieri Joker and Harley are villains. They are clearly labeled as such. No one would think that their relationship should be emulated because it's clear that it's unhealthy and dysfunctional. There are entire comic book arcs about Harley realizing this and leaving Joker. In contrast, Twilight is a series of books where the Cullens are painted as "better than" vampires that have altruistically abstained from devouring humans. Edward is painted as a deeply loving character, who only mistreats Bella because he's trying to protect her. That's a VERY different message for a young girl. And while I think middle school is young, and maybe that's a failure of her parents that she read that, I don't think it's wrong for her to point out that it caused her to have a warped idea of what love is. If you read a book that's supposedly romantic, and this is how the guy treats the girl, at a certain age, that will form your ideal of how you want to be treated. And if Bella and Edward is your ideal, you're more likely to end up in an abusive relationship because in reality, Edward is a creepy, abusive stalker, and he only gets away with it because Bella has no self-preservation instinct and thinks he's hot.
@@maidenfinesmixedbag8880 I agree and disagree on some stuff they need to know it's fiction To base real life off twilight or batman couples is absurd I know you may concur it's fiction
Yes, we only seen in pov of Bella, so ofc we wouldn't see how Alice and Edward were manipulative. This helped remind me that they are vampires, vampires are predators. Werewolves are more loyal and human oriented. She didn't have to choose Jacob, but Jacob was right from the beginning 5:10 you sounded like Brooke Davis for a bit here 😂. Im rewatching One Tree Hill
Hmm... Honestly I'm lowkey thinking that Alice just goes with the future she saw and kinda make it happen even if it wouldn't if she wouldn't force it to happen. And that's where all her motivation is located in my opinion. 🤔 She do what she saw even agains other people, because, well... she saw it already and therefore it needs to happen. 😅
"Including her confederate husband who tried to eat Bella at the birthday party" Imagine trying to explain this to someone who hasn't read the series or watched the movies 😭
Alice pays a lot of attention to Bella, but they have nothing in common. She has crazy visions about the relationships of others, but we do not see work on her relationship, which is one of the most demanding with their abilities. He sees and does not see is a very irresponsible approach to the lives we enter, he does not have to take responsibility. It's lazy writing Meyer where he forgets that risking lives and manipulating people's decisions is not cute. Alice is not a perfect character.
Bella has nothing in common with any of the Cullen's including Edward. They were bored and Bella had nothing to live for. Bella isn't a good friend to the humans around her either, she wanted to be apart of something supernatural and didn't care about the details. My point is Bella wasn't manipulated, she isn't a victim, it is what it is, still a classic tho❤
You can be a victim and a perpetrator, but victim blaming is never good. Her choice was of the life she wanted, not between Jacob and Edward. She was absolutely using Edward for his immortality, but that doesn’t mean she deserved to be puppeteered by the Cullens. The reason she was boring with no personality was because her childhood was all about her mother Renee. She hadn’t had a chance to develop her own interests whiling parenting her mom. Bella being only 17, before she had had a chance at living her life and exploring who she was as a person, met Edward, who stunted her personality before it could blossom. If she had never met him or if she’d actually worked through the adversity of the Cullens all abandoning her, then she would have been better off. Maybe she would have gone to college and explored something more than just biology that she enjoyed.
How Bella wasn't manipulated? It's so obvious. You said "she had nothing to live for", exactly, bcs she was on extreme depression! AND it made her more easily manipulated, if she had loving parents and real supportive friends she probably wouldn't be so easily ready to abandon her life
Anyone who knows Alice's backstory, knows that Alice was easily manipulated, and also, extremely persuasive. She and Edward worked together to get Bella.
I really liked contrapoints take on the dressing up/babysitting/controlling behavior in her video about erotic fiction. It’s written this way intentionally, because women wanting these things could be seen as a social faux pas at the time it was written. Women weren’t supposed to admit they *wanted* pretty dresses and to look beautiful. The fantasy aspect of the story, in addition to the vampires of course, is getting to be dressed up and be in luxury cars and houses and go to prom and do all the things women wanted without the shame of admitting they wanted those things and being accused of being vain or money hungry. Bella denying she wanted them, while part of her character, was a literary device of sorts so that the reader themselves could put themselves in Bella’s shoes and get those things without the social stigma or personal shame of being vain and self serving.
I also blame Bella as well though. You’re right about Alice’s part in everything as well like spot on! However Bella was really complacent she really could’ve have put her foot down and say no if she really didn’t want to do any of the things Alice and Edward tricked her into but she was such a people pleaser. Also besides the fact that Bella wanted to be apart of that world (vampirism) what else made her and Edward even compatible? If anything she always seemed more of herself with Jacob their more earthy ‘go with the flow’ type of people. I think Bella just wanted to be apart of Edward’s world so bad that she literally put up with anything even if she didn’t want to and I feel that both Alice and Edward saw this and took advantage of that.
Yeah I completely agree with you. Jacob was great for her, because they’d known each other since childhood, their dads were friends, she had respect for the Quileutes that the Cullens didn’t have. I honestly hate SMeyer for many reasons, especially that she wrote Jacob the way she did in his toxic scenes and imprinting on his former crush’s daughter. I don’t care how she tried to spin it, it was objectively wrong.
@@TheAsh-holethe way that she ruined Jacob to make Edward seem like the right one for Bella all along and then give Jacob Bella’s daughter as a consolation prize is upsetting
Its amazing how one author made all the characters terrible people including the MCs. I don't think any are redeemable. Concerning the Cullens, Bella, Charlie and many of the other characters.
Yeah i knew i didnt like twilight anymore when my cousin who was reading the books told me that jacob threated to throw himself off a cliff if bella didnt date him. Really cant be team edward or jacob.
I don’t remember if that was in New Moon or in Eclipse. All I know is that New Moon Jacob was better than Eclipse Jacob and I suspect it’s because Stephanie was not expecting Jacob to be so well liked, so she had to destroy Edward’s competition. I always joke around and say I’m Team New Moon Jacob because that was the best we ever got lol. It was all down hill after that book.
people think bella is an empty canvas and they have the right or some sort of better knowledge to draw whatever and however they want on her, but in fact, Bella wants to remain an empty canvas! she is boring and dull and she is happy being that way while people constantly try to push her into things she doesn't want to do! most of the main characters are written this way, as if they need other characters to make them more "active" but what if I DON'T WANT TO GO TO PARTIES JESSICA?
She is not happy being like that though, she had shitty parents, what had a huge play in how depressed she was to begin with. She was literally su1cidal after Edward left her in New mom, how can you think she was remotely happy?
@@MariaPaula-uw3ds she definitely wasn’t happy, but I bet she would have been if she’d had true autonomy over her life. The only time she was genuinely happy was when she got to become a vampire with financial privilege. She made a big play of it that she didn’t care about Edward’s wealth, but if it weren’t for his money and immortality, I highly doubt that she would have kept putting up with his 💩.
To be fair if your friend found out they had a high risk pregnancy that could endanger her life would you want her to go through with it? Yes her body her choice, just like a woman has the choice to end her pregnancy especially in the cases of rape and safety of the mother, she has also has the choice to give birth, but can you blame Alice or anyone in the position of an extremely risky pregnancy where they say yes to an abortion in that case?
The problem is that Bella is written to be "not like other girls" and therefore doesn't like girly things and must protest at the thought of girly things. However, these books were read largely by other girls who do like girly things and want to see their heroine doing girly things. So the purpose of Alice is to force Bella to do the girly things while still allowing Bella to be not like other girls. Because perish the thought that we allow our lead to like being girly, or that we respect the wishes of a tomboy lead to obstain from girly things, or that she and her love interest agree on a compromise. What sort of dangerous message might that send to young girls about self-acceptance and boundaries.
Its characters like these that make me really sad that they ruined Jacob. In New Moon, he was really a good friend that loved Bella for who she really was. Also, that book made me love them together as a potential couple because their dynamic felt so real and like the basis of a healthier relationship. But of course Edward had to be endgame so Stephanie had to nuke Jacob in the last two books 🫠
I found your channel today and I am already loving the analysis! But I think Alice and Bella became best friends at the end of Twilight because Alice helped Bella with everything (shower, getting dressed, etc.) during the time Bella was incapacitated due to the accident so they spent a lot of time together.
@@FernandaPereira-zd4gy thank you so much! but the thing is bella makes that comment about them being friends like alice said they would be before any of that even happened! lol
My favourite book/movie was New Moon. You know, the book that barely has any Cullen's in it. I haven't enjoyed the movies in a long time despite watching them quite a few times, and I never read the books again. One time was enough. So I don't really remember any details or specific instances where I can say that she was in a toxic relationship. I was young when I liked the saga, so I wasn't thinking about important things, I was thinking about hot vampires and werewolves! So I am always confused when people say it is toxic. I don't like it but I don't know why I don't like it. Your explanation is amazing. Thank you. I can now know a little as to why I don't like it. The whole imprint thing on Renesmee always threw me off too and seemed out of character for Jacob because, you know, he isnt a suposed to be a pedophile. He likes women his age, unlike Edward. No, Jacob. You didn't like Bella because of her future child. You were the objectively better partner for Bella, she is just an idiot (objectively better when it comes to choosing between him or Edward. After reading some comments i am reminded of other sketchy things Jacob did...yeah...not good. Just not as bad as the Cullen's. Jacob genuinely seemed to care for her is just that he had his own issues. Different issues. She is probably better off alone or with a classmate. Some of her human friends seemed nice but it was hard to tell because Bella rarely described them or payed attention to them so we didnt actually get to know them). Also. Midnight sun is twilight from the perspective of Edward right? We could probably get some insight on the extent of the Cullens manipulation of Bella in that book because in that book we get to know what EVERYONE thinks. Maybe it wasnt even on purpose? Idk. Im speculating.
Number one: thank you for talking with so much passion. It's certainly missing these days. 😊 Number two: WOW. Alice is one of my favorite characters... But you literally just took one of my favorite characters and turned her on her head turned me on my head and made me look at Alice in a whole other way. The perspective that maybe someone like Jacob would have seen. The fact is you're fleeing out facts so fast that I am totally seeing what you are saying and you are putting it down girl and I just applaud you for not letting someone who is obviously a fan favorite to lot of people stopped you from pointing out all her flaws. And let's be real here Alice is not usually someone who gets the most critique in the Twilight series. As an impressionable 17 or 18 year old when I read this of course I thought Alice was just that exuberant offbeat and quirky friend that we all love and wish we had... And yeah when she did things like "abduct" Bella or complains about not wanting a wedding or something, of course as a kid I'm going to think oh she's just being her silly Alice self so just let it go. But yes Alice is married to a guy who murdered a lot of people and his best friends with Edward who basically murdered a lot of people. The only slight argument I have is that Bella has clearly said that Jacob is her best friend (and he's like my second favorite character and even I see his bad qualities now) honestly Charlie's the best character😅 But again I applaud you for being very forth with an analytical and very factual and just putting it out there. I look forward to your other videos! I haven't seen this much disdain for Twilight in a while and let's face it that was the best part of Twilight. 😅 Kudos 🍎
Nah, you’re right, Jacob was her best friend. The fact that he had feelings for her changes nothing 😂. I think the only one who said she was Bella’s best friend, was Alice herself, so…..
he also wasnt her best friend, he also left her when he changed into a wolf, than was pissed of because he fewll in love with her and she didnt fall in love with him. we had this in 2 of the 5 movies, .
Well, I mean it is hard to believe Edward is a virgin after that long of a time. They don’t show him being so religious he feels like they can’t be together unless married. Bella would have been better off with Jacob. She could have had a much more normal life. Alice had a hard life and had psychological issues as a human. They don’t just go away because you become a vampire. I think she just probably hadn’t had many girlfriends ever neither did Bella. This led to this weird friendship like middle school age until you learn to discuss things and learn to say no. I really didn’t like Bella though. I thought she was way too young and immature. The whole baby thing and sparkling I hated as well. I love a good vampire story even a love one but let them be of legal age and had other relationships. I just can’t believe Edward held out that long that is insane to think at his age and vampire hormones wouldn’t have led him to have a relationship with another woman. Even during the time period he was born.
Twilight is definitely one of those series where I love the world of fanfics it has spawned but I hate the source material, for reasons like what you pointed out,
Not excusing Alice's actions but i dont think its that black and white. Its due to Alice's power shed essentially already lived multiple lives with bella before bella even met her. I think the closest way to describe their relationship is someone who has been someone's friend for years but the person got amnesia so is starting from scratch. The friend with the memories knows almost everything but the amnesiac is starting from step 1 with no experience or knowledge. Theres definitely a power imbalance but its not necessarily a black and white non amnesiac is manipulative and abusive as they know things about the other person without the other knowing they know.
I just found your channel because of the Jessica video, and had to whatch all your videos😅. I've read the books many times but never realice how bad of a friend/person Alice was particularly to Bella, especially considering that in Midnight Sun they imply that Alice would be like a good couple(?) for Bella if Edward didn't make his move (if you can please would you make a vid talking about it🙏) Thank you for sharing your perspective in deep❤
I didn't even know Alice supposed to be Bella bestfriend😮 She was her love interest sister eho Bella got along yes, It's Alice who liked Bella for Edward. That's why she helped Bella, she wanted her to be together with Edward. It's was for Edward. Her brother for many many years, not a teen girl she just met. Duh I thought it was pretty clear. Didn't know some people was confused🤔
Some time ago, on Reddit, someone asked what the best and worst book-to-movie adaptations were. My answer for best was the Twilight Saga. Not because it was good in and of itself, but it did a great job showcasing how truly shitty the source material was.
Meh, the writer wanted Bella to experience all those things but “she wasn't like other girls” “she didn't care about all those girly stuff” that's why there were Alice and Edward to “force her”. Most people who are like Bella, don't have friends who will force them to live a little and when they grow up, they realise maybe making some memories along the way wouldn't kill them. At the end of the day, she enjoyed everything she was given without asking and/or wanting. Including marriage and the kid. Honestly, I think she totally deserved all the best because she was also willing to do everything for her loved ones. Honestly, sometimes it's physically painful for me to force myself to do such things. I wish I had someone like Alice in life 😄
I just found your channel and I am officially obsessed with your analysis videos and I’m going to need you to do an analysis on so many more different series 😂❤
I think the book is wish fulfillment. The author wants those things badly, but doesn’t think admitting to it openly would make her be seen as a “good girl.” A story that forces her into these positions she secretly wants to be in is what Twilight is all about. Also it’s just how the female personality/sexuality works. You don’t want to choose a man, you want him to choose you, then all you have to do is give into him. Being in all these situations where Bella must give in feels good. That’s why it appeals to people. Bella’s discomfort is glossed over because it’s not important.
Oh totally. When I was a teenager I was so sexually represed Twilight was like my Bible. Still love it, but I think it's important to acknowledge the relationships portrayed are not healthy understanding that the problem isn't the book but the repression and how so many young girls and women would be or felt like they would be judge if they express their needs and wants.
This video is such clickbait. It could be true that Alice is just Edward's best friend and not Bella's, but if you read the books, you'll understand the different dynamics Bella has with the individual members of the Cullen family that are not shown in the movies. 1. Alice "forcing" Bella is like a mother or another family member nudging you to do something they know you'll either regret missing later in life or enjoy more than you think you would. How can you know you don't like something if you've never tried it? Without characters like Alice and Charlie in Bella's life, she wouldn't have a social life. Charlie constantly nudges her to see her friends. She wouldn't have pictures from her birthdays, prom, or wedding. How is that a healthy way of living? In the books, you'll find that Alice and the rest of the Cullens always meet Bella halfway-whether it’s planning a birthday party (which was so intimate and quiet that you can barely call it a party all for Bella's sake) or getting Bella gifts that they have to struggle to meet her standards. She asks them not to gift her anything expensive, and Edward and Emmett set up her music player in her truck because they know she won’t be able to do it herself (Bella admits multiple times in the books that she's clumsy). Instead of looking at Alice as not allowing Bella to dress the way she likes, consider it as someone making the process easier for her, knowing that if Bella says yes to a new experience, she'll probably back out if she sees there’s more work to do that she doesn’t enjoy. 2. Edward's proposal can be seen as "manipulation" if you must call it that. He was definitely controlling in Eclipse in many scenes, but he clearly says to Jacob that if Bella backs out of the wedding and chooses him, he will let her go. An actual manipulator wouldn’t have that open mindset. He wouldn’t leave loose ends where Bella could freely break their engagement if she wanted to. 3. Bella did not plan her own wedding because it's simply not her thing. Dresses, parties, and extravagant things are not her interests. Alice exerts control, but in a childlike way, which is evident throughout the books. Things where she did go wrong like Bella's birthday party are pointed out to her as her mistakes by not just Bella but Edward too in Eclipse. 4. It's clear, even in the movies that Edward invited Jacob because he didn’t want Bella to feel sad on her wedding day. This should clear up any doubts about Edward and Alice being "manipulative" for their own gains. Edward knew Jacob still loved Bella and that his bride-to-be was still affected by the loss of such an important person in her life-someone she had kissed just a few days before. Yet Edward went ahead and invited him to make her happy. It should be noted that he was still not on the same team as Jacob at that point (they only team up after Bella gets pregnant and they both become concerned about Bella's safety and disapprove of her decision to put her life at risk without consulting anyone else). Bella is clearly extremely happy to see Jacob at her wedding, and Jacob was happy too. How was that selfish? 5. Towards the end of Twilight, Edward quickly realises all the potential dangers he has put Bella in, and how it could continually affect her life and safety if he decides to make her part of their world without turning her into a vampire. He tells her this immediately after she wakes up in the hospital. Then again in New Moon, after Jasper loses control at the party, he questions Bella’s safety. The Cullens didn’t leave Forks to "abandon" Bella they left to protect her. It wasn’t about Edward being with her it was about keeping any vampire away from her that could potentially put her in danger. How would their plan work if Alice was still in touch with Bella? Another concern was that Bella would never have moved on from their relationship if she had constant communication with the Cullens. She would have been longing and hopeful instead of trying to move on and have a normal risk-free life. When they are reunited, Edward admits that the only reason he hurt her by lying and leaving was to make her not come searching for him and complains that she believed him so easily. That she couldn't see his love past that lie and chose to believe the lie instead of his love for her. 6. Alice returns because she thought Bella was dead. If she didn’t care about her, why would she even care whether Bella was living or dead? Maybe she had been keeping an eye on Bella from time to time, seeing her future to ensure she was okay. This is evident from their conversation in New Moon. Her vision of seeing Edward try to get himself killed by the Volturi came when she was waiting outside the house, letting Jacob and Bella finish their conversation. Vampires and werewolves are enemies by nature, and even Jacob talks disrespectfully about vampires-especially Edward throughout New Moon and Eclipse. This can also be seen in Breaking Dawn novel in various interactions between Jacob and the Cullen family, especially Rosalie. He calls her a "bitch," she calls him a "dog," and Emmett laughs in the corner because they all know it's just part of their dynamic. 7. Villainising Alice for coming to check on Bella or Charlie after she thought Bella was dead? How did it ruin any potential love story between Jacob and Bella? Jacob was always the second choice-how is that fair to him? Jacob deserved someone who would put him first, not second. Bella herself said on numerous occasions not to make her choose between him and Edward because it would always be Edward. What about Jacob trying to kiss her so many times when she didn’t want to? You can see Bella pull away from the kiss in the car in New Moon. What are we shipping in that moment? She didn’t even know Alice had returned yet and still refused to kiss him. Edward never tried to force himself on her. Even when she wanted him to be intimate he always considered her safety before even considering his own needs.
I only watched the movies and read the books to get the Barbie dolls. My parents said I wasn't a fan so I couldn't get them and I was too young for a job and we don't do allowances in my family. So pretending to be a fan of the series was the only option. My parents weren't really convinced but they did feel bad for me lol I was miserable the whole time, the books were awful and boring and I cringed through the movies. They caved and me and my sisters each got a Bella Barbie and me and one of my sisters got an Edward Ken while our other sister got the Jacob Ken. I immediately set to work on making Edward a stay-at-home househusband while Bella was a vampire witch who was the queen of her coven. Edward was constantly being kidnapped by the bad guy of the day and Bella and her coven of badass witches and vampires made up of strictly just Barbies and the Barbies with broken necks that I turned into Kens saved him and the other Kens. I legit had trans Barbie dolls and didn't know what trans was, now that I think about it.
Can you please explain how Edward was manipulative? I never read the books but in the movies it looked like Bella pursued Edward. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. This is super intriguing.
Recently got into watchign twilight with my be whos never seen it before or heard much about it. We are in our twenties and he does NOT UNDERSTAND why alice showed up in new moon like she's the queen of the town. smh.
I mean her Dad killed her Mama and locked her up, to keep her mouth shut. She ECT treatment incorrectly which permanently altered part of her personality. Not saying she is great but she was a tragic character. Mental institutions at that time were barbaric. She also had a little sister and not sure if she ever got to see her again. Her Dad remarried quickly after having his wife murdered, to his mistress. Every character has a tragic past and most haven’t completely resolved their issues.
Just now realizing that my ex best friend was Alice... 😑 Just another box yo tick that I eas blind to all the signs. (And also possibly another reason i hate Twilight... I didn't want to see myself)
Bella resisting to Alice's efforts to make her pretty reeks of the author trying to have her cake and eat it too. Like, she did want Bella to look conventionally attractive and have a conventional wedding, but she also wanted her to be Not Like Other Girls. So she made Bella disinterested in fashion and stuff and had Alice play the role of getting her all prettied up. So it's like "Look, see? It's not Bella wanting to put all that make-up and wear all those dresses! It's Alice doing that for her, Bella doesn't want it at all!" without realizing just how toxic that makes Alice look.
I was always confused whenever Bella called Alice her best friend. Like, what did she do to deserve it? Absolutely nothing! If anything, Alice terrified me in the books. She’s a legit predator that played with her prey. I would not hang out with her willingly, but somehow Bella feels safe around her. The whole series felt like Bella got stuck with a cult, especially from poor Charlie’s perspective💀
Wow. Back when the movies came out I used to think Alice might be the only decent Cullen aside from Esme and Carlisle. This really opened my eyes and now I have newfound hatred for Alice 😂 love your content!
I always thought Alice was making her own counter Voltari so she collected Bella. Like Alice's powers along with Edward's, Bella's and Reneesme's make the Cullens a pretty powerful coven. Alice probably saw that before everyone else and went for it. It really bothered me that the one person that tried to convince Bella to stay human was seen as jealous.
In the movies, it’s kind of hard to see how toxic she is because the actress is SO SO SO good. However, the books… I hated the books so much. She’s such an enabler.
Alice was in love with the idea of her coven being perfect and happy. Future Bella was more important than Present Bella. Because Future Bella looked so happy in her vision, anyways, right? What does it matter that this teenager is uncomfortable, she'll make their family sooo perfect.
Exactly Alice was a villain just overly loyal to her family
Yeah that's why Alice was going to be so cocky was that she could always look to the Future but I do think she genuinely loved her family so she had that at least
@lavenderflowersfall280 she saw Bella as family that's why she did everything possible to make sure Bella choose Edward.
I'm so attracted to the actress' charisma that I didn't even notice this dynamic. But you're absolutely right, it's not cool.
I really love her look. Cute, quirky, with that unique short hairstyle! It's rare to see nowadays
Yes its her rizz
Literally, Ashley Greene is a goddess
true, she's right up there with Alan Rickman turning Snape into a somewhat likeable character
Yeah it's kind of hard to escape Alice's charisma which isn't a bad thing necessarily until you actually have to look past the charisma and see what she was actually doing to Bella. I mean I'm sure she did but she's vastly cared about her family and herself more
The older I get, the more I notice that Twilight is a horror story
Twilight is kinda good (as a movie you play just to pass the time) if your don't overthink it 💀
@@monica15326 yeah kinda like Naruto
Its a comedy to me
Dom Noble said that before in his reviews, Meyer has quite the unused talent for writing horror i.e. the gruesome birthing, the implied Volturi eating tourists scene (where Bella goes from 😱 to 🤷♀️ in like 3 seconds because theehee not her problem), the catcalling guys and stalkerdward coming to the rescue.
I thought that when I was thirteen
During the confrontation scene in New Moon at Bella's house, Alice says to Jacob, after MONTHS of ghosting Bella "Well, I'm not going to hurt her!" and I really sincerely wish Jacob had said "You already have."
I taught he was like I think the first time I said it in my head and I really taught he had said it until i rewatched it and saw that I had said it not Jacob and yes he should've said cause she didn't hurt her physically but emotionally she did
and meanwhile in the book it's mentioned that the Forks gang (Angela, Jessica, Eric) actually spent a good while (I wanna say at least a couple of months, can't remember that bit that well, but long enough that they basically had to give up) trying to help Bella bounce back out of her depression, but Alice couldn't answer a single freaking email
@@lighthouse-witchto be fair, Bella knew her emails weren’t going through. Alice never got them (at least according to the movies, I don’t remember the books)
they did the right thing.. Bella needed to stop contact and move on with her life, Bella was obsessed, she didn't accept 'no' as an answer.. also it's not their responsibility her mental health, her father is the one responsible for not sending her to therapy.
Imagine you want to leave your partner and they start "if you leave me I'm going to end myself"
I recently saw the first two Twilight movies and found it really funny how much more chemistry Bella had with her school friends and Jacob's group than with Alice. Those actors were carrying those characters on their backs.
The problem is with Bella secrets and awkwardness I knew that school friendship would die out. Her chemistry with Alice is fine it's just that Alice is very dominant and knows how to get her way with a smile on her face
Alice only came for Bella after Edward was in danger and only then. Girl is the whole reason Bella is even involved. She CHOSE this direction. She's constantly having visions and chasing the outcome that best suits her. She began the day she saw Jasper. Twilight is really Alice's story. Wanted family and to be happy. And she got it. Saving only who she wanted to and making people choose the choice she wants them to. She positions her favorites to do what comes out best for her.
That makes the idea of Alice being in the Volturi twice as scary. Because if she was captured by them and her only option is to help them or die, their power would be unstoppable
@serenitymoon825 that's the thing though. She chose the path that would make sure she didnt have to go with them. She made sure that future wouldn't happen unless she wanted it to. She has a lot more control than you'd think. She's either, already part of their coven and using the Cullens for her own experiments, i.e. Rotisserie Chicken. Or she's seen what would put the Volturi on their knees and Aro is afraid of her. It probably has to do with her ability being directly used by them too
👏👏👏 nothing else need said
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, but Alice came to check on Bella when BELLA was in danger, BEFORE she had any visions of Edward being in danger.
@Itsintheway23 but she still didn't even contact her "friend" (bella) after the cullens had moved... like, ok, Edward doesn't want to be Bella's boyfriend anymore, but why she couldn't be friends with Alice anymore? so one thing is actually tied to the other? Alice only cares about Bella at all when Edward is involved?? she could be in touch with Bella even in the distance, but she chose not to
Another thought--isn't Alice's recklessness, pushiness, and disregard for Bella and her true feelings/wellbeing reminiscent of Renee? I wonder how much of Bella's decisions and vulnerability to manipulation and love-bombing stems from her childhood setting her up for unhealthy ideas about "normal" relationship dynamics after being responsible for Renee for so long.
Actually, I did a personality analysis of the characters. Jasper and Charlie are the same kind of person in very different walks of life. Alice and Renee are the same kind of person in very different walks of life. So what we have with these two couples is a case of when "opposites attract" works and an example of when it doesn't.
A lot. Bellas cptsd of being a parentified child set her up to dysfunctional love pretty early on. She desired the picture perfect family and would probably even disagree that Alice manipulated her because it seems so distinctivly her. She took up most of the housework from a very young age, supported Renee emotionally and then was shipped off to forks, because her mother wanted to be with her new boyfriend. That's why Edwards break up was so devastating for her. She remembered unconsciously that her parents psychologically left her as a child. Bella wanted this never received unconditional love so badly she couldn't see the red flags. We seek the relationships we didn't already heal. How alone must've Bella felt under all this "not like other girls" crap?
@@not-a-ghost2206well basically Bella says that she sent herself but let's face it if she feel emotionally neglected and unwanted it was basically her mother unconsciously sending her away
Alice surely had a vision about how Bella would react to being tricked into going to prom, right?? And Edward by extension would have known that she would be upset, right? Yikes, those two are menaces, especially since Edward plays dumb later and asks why she's crying!
Agreed, like I can see why she’s manipulative toward Bella but I also will say that’s the point of her power, she manipulates time in a way by seeing the future and changing it, that’s what the butterfly affect is, doing something differently to change the final outcome but I also think she only became her friend friend after Bella got pregnant with renesmee cause she couldn’t see her future, and maybe that’s why later on she tones it down a bit.
Nah Alice can't see everything but she definitely saw Bella on future as a cullen so that why she basically did everything to bring it to pass. She's not a villain just has a screwd up POV
@@elfenlied_girl1238nah she was Bella friend before the baby. Alice just had an odd way of treating people
she actually did, that's why she put waterproof mascara/makeup on bella. in the first book in the epilogue, bella says (quote):
"I’d guessed there was some kind of occasion brewing. But prom! That was the furthest thing from my mind. The angry tears rolled over my cheeks. I remembered with dismay that I was very uncharacteristically wearing mascara. I wiped quickly under my eyes to prevent any smudges. My hand was unblackened when I pulled it away; maybe Alice had known I would need waterproof makeup."
Technically, Alice can only see what people have decided. A papercut is an accident, not a choice.
So overall Stephanie Meyers did a pretty good job at adaptating her journey as a mormon through Twilight, it just reflects how manipulative the mormons can be instead of showing the good sides in an edgy way like she intended
I REALLY appreciate this correlation.
Your so right x
Whoa, that's pretty insightful!
And she probably didn't even realise what she did... 😢
@@justinemot2282yeah she probably thought it was for the best
I've been saying. Bella was manipulated into that family. She was a teenager who fell in love for the first time and she had no business making such insanely huge decisions for herself. Edward and Rosalie were the only ones who seemed aware of the gravity of those choices. But Alice was telling her it's all gonna be sunshine and rainbows, so Bella would only see the positives and didn't think too much about the negatives
Although Alice should have been the first person to warn Bella of those negatives, because she can see the future. It's really creepy that she didn't
It's telling that these were the relationships Stephanie Meyers thought were romantic and admirable. Same kind of people that you see in cults...
If vampires and werewolves aren't the epitome of cults, I don't know what else is.
I have heard she is highly religious sooooo 🤷♀️
@@Cantmakeupmymindonaname Mormon.
I read a fanfic like this recently where Jasper lays it all out to Jacob and Bella, how he hoped since Edward had the ability to look into another person’s mind that he would be able to help Alice distinguish her mind between reality and fantasy but instead Alice and Edward just feed into each other’s delusions.
Fic name?
@@antonelaabicic3028the dumbasses of douchebaggery: the Dracula edition
Name please, I would like to check it
Alice forced her into heels for the wedding, that always bugged me
Alice mindset was to make Bella look good, I think her character gave her that gift. She was controlling outcomes though with good intentions and ended up with the ability to see outcomes
@@florencembah2626yeah that's all well and good but why the shoes? 😭😭
@not-a-ghost2206 she liked the shoes I think but Bella doesn't know how to set boundaries or Alice is just that good, idk but I get what you mean about the shoes
The only one in the Cullen family who cared for Bella's welfare was Rosalie. She warned Bella that being a vampire was something to regret and protected Bella's wishes and child when Edward and Jacob ignore the fact Bella wanted to give birth and both guys wanted to kill the baby. Yes, Rosalie did want a baby and might've intended to take the kid for herself if Bella died, but she still wasn't as manipulative or self-serving as the rest of the Cullens. I think Carlisle turned Rosalie because he wanted to and could, not because he lost control of his bloodlust. He was old enough and experienced enough by then to keep control of his thirst. He wanted her as a mate for Edward because of her beauty, but Edward wasn't interested, so stealing Rosalie's humanity and choice of whether to become a vampire was a pointless and cruel act. Yes, she eventually found a mate for herself, but that doesn't excuse or change the fact she was robbed of her mortality and desire for a normal life and family by the very man who calls himself her adoptive father. The Cullens always did what was best for themselves even if it destroyed or devastated other people.
Rosalie was dying. She had been brutally and savagely attacked by Royce and the other guys. Carlisle turned her to save her life. And I think he also hoped she would be a wife for Edward.
And to be fair Rosalie begged him to turn and save Emmett when he was dying. I think the main reason she objected to Bella becoming a vampire was because she was choosing to end her human life. There was no threat to her life (until later of course). Where for the rest of them their human lives were over. They were dying and it was becoming a vampire or death. But Bella could live a normal life. That's why Rosalie objected.
You may agree with me or not but I find Carlisle a hypocrite. He believes in God and believe that their soul is on the line by becoming a vampire, yet he turned more than one human into a vampire mostly without the consent of the human he is turning. He corrupted the souls of his so called family that he love. Stephanie Meyer showed the compassionate side of him, but he also corrupts. He decided for Rosalie, Esme, then him and Rosalie decided for Emett. He turned Edward even though it was his mother's wish, Carlisle still know that it will not be good for Edward or to anyone's souls to be a vampire. It's happy ever after in the end but, he is responsible for the souls of the people he turned once their perfect life on earth is over.
Rosalia was turned cause she was dying, it had nothing to do with loss of control, plus She was ready to let Bella die for the baby while Alice wanted the baby dead for Bella to live, no character was perfect
@@Richie-rs3wp Cartisle turned them believing he was doing the right thing, I think he believed he was saving them. Not an hypocrite just a man with too much compassion he didn't know when to say no to saving livesm
The only person who actually cared about Bella as a whole is Esme.
Arguably Jacob was her best friend and knew and loved and appreciated her for who she is the best, but unfortunately for the story they turned him into a predator and then made him marry her daughter. And Bella wanted to be with the rich popular Immortal people so she just changed up everything about herself in order to fit in with them instead of addressing her own maladaptive self depreciation and depression
Nah Bella is a case of I don't belong until she sees the unusual and then feels at home. Jacob was her rational friend though according how it ended he was drawn to her cause of her daughter so that another thing
pre transformation jacob >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You mean the part where she sits around for months on end and then eventually jumps off a cliff to hear Edwards voice? Yeah that's true
@@intoellesmind2619 true
Huh never consciously thought about it but she is definitely Edward’s bff. Everything she does serves to keep Bella sane or ok for Edward’s sake really. Also where was she when Bella was so depressed she was diving off cliffs and other stuff
Edit: yes you hit it on the head, she straight up abandoned her during new moon too!!
I think a lot of things she does she thinks it right, she left the town with her family to keep Bella safe, came back when she saw Bella die I still like her but yes her character is a screwed
@@florencembah2626iirc she can’t see most of Bella at that time due to hanging around the wolves.
@heidiclement4923 that because wolves and vampire were natural enemies
Alice was my favourite character when I read Twilight for the first time. And she was my biggest disappointment when I re-read the serie as an adult. She never care what Bella likes or want to do.
But I must to say there was one thing that bothered me in Alice even when I was teenager - she was practically absent during Bella's pregnancy. Edward and Jacob hated her decision to keep the baby but they both take care of her. And Alice, her "best friend", was missing because she had a headache. She couldn't handle that she doesn't see a future so she totally ignored dying friend and wife of her favourite brother. I expected something more from best friend. Then she just came back when Bella became vampire and acted like nothing happen. Alice was Bella's friend only when she was comfortable and could use her visions to predict Bella's reactions.
She was close to Bella only when she could see her future so she could manipulate Bella and keep her under control
Wait if she had a headache and she avoided Bella, doesn't that mean the headache is connected to it and it avoided them until the baby was born? I don't think it made her a villain she knew Bella was safe
@@florencembah2626you are incapable of not replying to any comment on what went wrong with twilight aren’t you 😂 like debating with a few people is one thing but under every comment is wild
@apsomya every single comment?? No need to exaggerate, I replied to the one I wanted, also why are you looking for my comments, just scroll on, geez
I mean Alice also was absent when Bella needed her most during the break up so it makes sense. She never was there for her so called best friend.
Rosalie was the best of cullens. Alice is just Edward’s wingman. And don’t even get me started on the RACIST STUFF OMG it’s crazy how normalized it was and Bella never stood up for her friend or the quileutes who were always good to her!! And new moon was my fav book bcs of the normalcy Bella was beginning to have by getting a job and hanging out w friends and being cared for properly by Jacob lol
It's my favorite book too for the same reason.
Racist..? Against werewolves? 😂😂😂
@@Iamaguienapigyes, and the natives humans that embody them, don’t be dense
I was an edgy goth teen when twilight came out and I dont know if people remember but there was a whole GENRE of toxic supernatural vampire (or werewolf) romance books you could read BEFORE Twilight was published. My friends & I were super into them. They were toxic AF. The more twisted & horror coded the better. At first we LOVED Twilight because it fit right in... but there was a point were there was a visible shift in attitudes towards the series (especially after the movies debuted). People were treating it as a sincere genuine romance to be idolized... which was shocking (and also meant we couldnt read the books publicly anymore without getting mocked for being love brained. Very unfair).
I read Bella as a witty & heavily sarcastic kid with a death wish (goth coded) in a tragedy where she is stalked and manipulated by a murderer into turning into a powerful blood thirsty monster (good shit). I was baffled at the love triangle intensity bc theyre both terrible people who put her in active physical danger. It wasnt meant to be taken as genuine romance...
or so I thought...
by now ive accepted It was always meant to be a love story and I was in the wrong thinking it was self aware. Glad others are finally catching on how messed up the themes are. Thats why gothy teens loved it. Its a better horror than a love story and Bella is more interesting if you read her as sarcastic
Well, much before the movies came out twilight was already being seen as a love story... sad
Yes, Alice is hella manipulative. The other thing i noticed about her when i read the books is that her insistence on dressing up Bella and throwing parties for her means that Bella simultaneously gets to be well dressed, attractive, and show the outward signs of popularity by having well attended parties, while also being Not Like Other Girls because she doesn't really want to have to do those things ﾆ
The ultimate pick me fantasy.
On point yes! And this tool is used by so many romance novels authors, how many books I read where some friend or relative gives the main girl an amazingly beautiful dress for an event where by chance the lover will see her, or a friend doing her hair or makeup. It would be somehow ‚shameful‘ if she wanted to make herself pretty intentionally to seduce her lover but if it’s not her fault it’s ok. It’s done to realize all the princess fantasies while also making it appear by accident 🤣
@@Marivi247 it's also part of how young women supposedly need to be passive. In reality, if you want something, or want to be something, you have to make it happen for yourself. But these so-called protagonists have things fall in their lap because someone else does everything for them. They get to be successful without actually having to be active in their own life.
I never saw Alice as manipulative for this exact reason: Alice is literally serving the plot as a secret-wish-fulfiller for Bella (Bella=Stephenie Meyer=the reader). Bella/SM/the reader actually WANTS all of this stuff: heels, wedding, prom, etc. So even when i first read it as a teen, i knew Alice was barely an actual character and more like a plot device.
It's like a wattpad fanfiction: "OH NO!!! My mom sold me into slavery to One Direction!! This is SO BAD and HORRIBLE!!!! What will i do now???"
Like, can you really blame "the mom" and call her a sociopath? She's doing exactly what the protagonist wants but says she doesn't want!
The problem is that Bella is a very depressive, very codependent person with little to no self esteem. She has childood traumas and issues that she never resolved so she needed a man that will come save her from her boring, empty life, loveless life. She needed a family of beautiful freaks that are different like she considers herself to be different, because she desperately craved a place she could belong. She has profound abandonment traumas so when Edward broke up with her and the Cullens left, it retraumatized her because this was like a repeat of her parents divorcing and she becoming emotionally abandoned again. Her mom sadly was was an emotionally absent mother, Bella had to parent and coddle her. Charlie wasn't with her in her childhood/early teens and when she moved to Forks we don't see Charlie being emotionally close with her at all. So Bella has this deep trauma of worthlesness and abandonment, so when she meet Edward and fell in love, she was extremely codependent and had a strong emotional connection with him and his family. Bella had finally someone who could take care of her and love her, so she abandoned herself and became obsessed with Edward. But this relationship is unhealthy, because it's not normal that when Edward breaks up with her and leaves, she becames a hollow shell that can't function. Bella even desrcibes in New Moon that Edward was like her drug or something. Either way, Bella has extreme clinical depression in New Moon and is traumatized because of this sudden loss of connection, security, and affection that he had with Edward. This is an repeat of the trauma when her parents abandoned her. That's why New Moon was extremely painful and traumatic for Bella. She even describes frequently that she feels that a hole has been punched through her chest, the sudden loss of love and connection, plus she has pstd and nightmares. Also she has little to no self esteem and can't see her qualities at all. Edward always tells her that she doesn't see herself clearly in the mirror. This stems from her deep worthlesness and terrible perception of herself. This happened because of her abandonment issues. When a child is abandoned, she believes that she must be unworthy or that something is deeply wrong with her, otherwise that wouldn't be hsppening. So Bella has all this deep unconscious beliefs and behaviors that shape her personality and life, that's why she became obsessed with Edward and becoming a vampire. She will finally belong with people who are different like her and as a vampire she would be worthy of them. She will finally be loved and protected like she always needed it. Bella needed therapy to heal from her childhood wounds and codependency, also loving involved parents. Sadly, this never happened if it did, Bella wouldn't have ended with the Cullens.
You summarized it very very well!!! And YES, the whole family, directly or indirectly, had a part in she wanting to become a vampire, bcs it was not only a promise of a "loving man" but ALSO the promise of a loving, caring family, where she could belong and feel secure and protected. If Edward didn't have the cullens, Bella would probably still be manipulated by him, but it would be less easy for him
My favorite fanfics are the ones where Jasper and Bella realize all of this and basically run off together.
Confederate Jasper was just as bad though lol
When people realize Stephanie Meyer is a member of the LDS, they start understanding what's actually going on in this story.
What’s that?
What do you mean?
What's LDS?
@@hadizamamud3209 the church of latter day saints - mormonism
@@Andkhwezilatter day saints aka mormons
It's so hard to view Alice as a "real" character instead of a plot device character.... It was obvoius to me even when I first read the book as a teen, that everything Alice "did" was secretly what Bella/the reader wanted. The reader wanted Bella to be quirky and not like other girls, but also WANTED her to be popular, well dressed, married and conventionally attractive. When Alice "forces" Bella to do stuff she doesn't want to do, she's literally fulfilling her role as a plot device because the character of "Bella" can't be written well enough to realistically want to change and improve as a person, so she needs an outside "force" to make her do what the reader wants.
Let's be honest here: when we were first reading it we didn't "notice" Alice was manipulative, because every time she forced Bella to look pretty or to go to the prom, in our heads we were thinking "hell yeah Alice! Make her do it!"
I do think that they were too pushy with Bella, but a lot of the reasons they did what they did was so she would have human experiences before she became a vampire which SHE was insisting on. And 17 year olds are still children making adult decisions. Alice is over the top with boundries though. And Edward dumped Bella like a toxic emo boy
i agree with all of this. i also thought they were trying to give her human experiences before she turned. but yeah boundaries lol
Not the human experiences Bella wants, though.
If they carried about Bella at all, they wouldn't even manipulate her into wanting to be a vampire in first place. If bella wasn't able to know what human experiences were best for her to have, how could she even make an informed decision about becoming a vampire? So they (the cullens) only disregard what she wants when it's good and convenient for them, not Bella?
I think Alice is a typical tool used by the author to let the female main character be treated like a princess. It is a part of many romance novels, some relative or friend gives her an incredibly beautiful dress and of course her lover is enchanted when he sees her by chance in this dress. Or the typical scene where a best friend does her makeup. I feel these are used to make the girl seem not girly because somehow it would be shameful to wish for a fancy dress to impress the lover, while still making all of it happen 😅
@@MariaPaula-uw3dsnobody manipulated her into becoming a vampire...
This is so true, Now that you say it I can't unsee it.
I remember being confused during New Moon when she was sending Alice all those messages after Edward leaves bc they had basically no friend vibes before that. And if she was her friend in the first place, I think she would have responded to them somehow..
Many years later when you realize how toxic everyone in Bella’s life actually was and how Twilight was not romantic at all 💀 😭
Charlie, Angela, and Seth were probably the only pure people in her life.
No, Charlie was a terrible father
@@MariaPaula-uw3ds HOW was Charlie a terrible father???
@@TheAsh-holeCharlie let his teenage daughter be with the man who hurt and abandoned her just like that, whose family is suspicious and didn't protect her daughter well. He also didn't suspect and ask more on what happened with Bella after the honeymoon as a normal good father will have funny feelings about the new set-up and his granddaughter growing too fast and being too close to a much older man, Jacob. As a cop, he should have question lots of things and call out how messy things are becoming with his daughter and grandchild because of the Cullens.
@@MariaPaula-uw3dsYeah, I'm interested too. Why do you think he was a terrible father ?
I think this is v reflective on Stephanie Myers perception of “real” female friendships. As a Mormon there’s really no one you can trust to have your best interest at heart as a woman. Even other women. Especially sisters in law. It’s only the best interest of the collective that matters (aka marrying u into the family). VERY Bella & Alice coded. Your closest friend still only cares as far as it makes u part of their family tree (no care if that’s what YOU want). Ex Mormon’s r often ex-communicated, matches how Alice leaves Bella in New Moon and ONLY comes back when it’s affecting Edward.
No hate just some extra perspective
Very good point! And you can have a lot of hate kkkk bcs this story is really fuck3d up
I have a weird theory that since Alice could see the future, she could calculate the decisions Edward should make to make Bella fall in love with him…and Bella is known for being stubborn so they played it in a way to make it seem like he didn’t want to turn her into a vampire and made himself look like the bad guy, knowing that she would appeal to that better than him chasing her…instead she chased him because he dangled the idea of being a vampire in a way that seemed that she couldn’t and shouldn’t have it….which made her want it a million times more…but if they gave her the option upfront she probably would’ve chose Jacob 🤯and Alice saw that, Edward even said it himself that visions are subjective depending on the decisions you make ….im convinced that they even worked with the vulturi too, informing them that she was immune to their powers, which probably made them want them to change her to see what kind of powers she could unlock if they changed her into a vampire…they constantly have the chess theme
and symbols everywhere which symbolizes them playing chess with her mind
I think the first part makes a lot of sense, only the volturi part I didn't buy
The Vulturi part doesn't make much sense. If the Vulturi were in on it WITH the Cullen's, then the Cullen's would have handed her over easily. Instead they risked their lives to keep her. If they cared about her powers, then they wanted those powers for themselves to have an advantage over the Vulturi. They didn't give Alice up, they didn't give Edward up, they aren't gonna give Bella up. All powerful assets that could potentially overthrow the Vulturi in the future.
Edward always showed desdain for the Vulturi. He described them as vile and by consequence Bella hated them and feared them by default...that is counterproductive in the manipulative race IF they wanted to hand her over (which is the only way the Vulturi would be in on it).
The other things you said. Yeah. I can see that.
Let's be honest, no one of the cullens has Bella's interest in heart. The one who comes the closest is Rosalie, but she only sees what she lost herself. Maybe deep down Emmett and Jasper, but because of his diet problem you cant really see that. Esmee just wants Carlsle to be happy. The only way he is happy is if Edward is happy. Alice just wants to have her 'perfect' world and her plaything. Emmett is neutral, it doesn't really matter for him and he just wants to help his family. Rosalie is the only one who really looks at Bella and wants to protect her from their world. Sure its because of her own selfess reasons, because she wants to be human, but she tries to keep Bella away from them and the danger they pose.
Its why i love to read twilight fanfic because i see the difference in how authors write not only the story but the characters as well !!!!
geriatric age is sending meeeeeeee
So Bella was grommed
yes
Oh god... yes. I never realized that
Yes
Not Alice fully love-bombing Bella before she even knew who she was, not Alice gaslighting, manipulating and using and lying lol
Replace her vampire visions with the Holy Ghost/the Spirit and she is just being a Mormon sister in law. Bella better get in line or else she's threatening her eternal family.
I don't remember much about the Twilight movies and I didn't read the books, but they isolated her from her friends and family. That's what abusers tend to do.
It’s even crazier when you think about how much older mentally the Cullen are. Bella is just a teenager
What sealed the deal for me was when I found out that all the movies and events took place within a year, which deals the theory of manipulation
aint gonna lie to you, I read these books when they came out, I was in middle school. I ended up getting married in a fckn terrible marriage and accepting a thousand and one things I did not want for the "sake of love" -- these books made sure an entire generation of girls were *not* following what they wanted but were instead following the same misguided (mormon, sorry not sorry) 'path to purpose'.
Twilight blamed for bad marriages Should Joker and Harley be blamed for relationship woes too? Gee there is such a thing as fiction While they maybe more realistic than some They are FANTASY stories Can anyone hold these tales accountable as guidelines for normal healthy relationships? Guess there needs to be Disclaimers These are stories People have to have accountability for their own lives Should I base my friendships off Heckyl and Heckyl or Garfield Flintstones Harry Potter ? Fiction is labeled that for a reason
@@FrancineArcieri young people (aka the target audience of twilight) don't have such refined perception and are more easily influenced... it's also the way the media acts on our subconscious
@@FrancineArcieri Joker and Harley are villains. They are clearly labeled as such. No one would think that their relationship should be emulated because it's clear that it's unhealthy and dysfunctional. There are entire comic book arcs about Harley realizing this and leaving Joker.
In contrast, Twilight is a series of books where the Cullens are painted as "better than" vampires that have altruistically abstained from devouring humans. Edward is painted as a deeply loving character, who only mistreats Bella because he's trying to protect her. That's a VERY different message for a young girl. And while I think middle school is young, and maybe that's a failure of her parents that she read that, I don't think it's wrong for her to point out that it caused her to have a warped idea of what love is. If you read a book that's supposedly romantic, and this is how the guy treats the girl, at a certain age, that will form your ideal of how you want to be treated. And if Bella and Edward is your ideal, you're more likely to end up in an abusive relationship because in reality, Edward is a creepy, abusive stalker, and he only gets away with it because Bella has no self-preservation instinct and thinks he's hot.
@@maidenfinesmixedbag8880 I agree and disagree on some stuff they need to know it's fiction To base real life off twilight or batman couples is absurd I know you may concur it's fiction
The fact you are blaming your bad choices on some silly books made my day! 😂😂 I laughed so hard. 😂😂
Do one about the relationship between Bella and Rosalie too, at least in the movies Rosalie seems to care more than Alice.
Yes, we only seen in pov of Bella, so ofc we wouldn't see how Alice and Edward were manipulative. This helped remind me that they are vampires, vampires are predators. Werewolves are more loyal and human oriented. She didn't have to choose Jacob, but Jacob was right from the beginning
5:10 you sounded like Brooke Davis for a bit here 😂. Im rewatching One Tree Hill
Jacob wasn't right too
Actually would’ve made a better horror story tbh 😭
@MariaFernandaCeschin can you explain why? I watched the movies long time ago and can't remember much
Jacob literally kissed her without her consent
Jacob was also toxic, just in another way
Hmm... Honestly I'm lowkey thinking that Alice just goes with the future she saw and kinda make it happen even if it wouldn't if she wouldn't force it to happen. And that's where all her motivation is located in my opinion. 🤔 She do what she saw even agains other people, because, well... she saw it already and therefore it needs to happen. 😅
No wonder we all love charlie and jasper and rosalie now years later
"Including her confederate husband who tried to eat Bella at the birthday party" Imagine trying to explain this to someone who hasn't read the series or watched the movies 😭
I appreciate your analysis. Makes me want to reread twilight in a new light since I was a teen when i last read it
Alice pays a lot of attention to Bella, but they have nothing in common. She has crazy visions about the relationships of others, but we do not see work on her relationship, which is one of the most demanding with their abilities. He sees and does not see is a very irresponsible approach to the lives we enter, he does not have to take responsibility. It's lazy writing Meyer where he forgets that risking lives and manipulating people's decisions is not cute. Alice is not a perfect character.
Stephenie Meyer has issues. Even Robert Pattinson clocked it.
Bella has nothing in common with any of the Cullen's including Edward. They were bored and Bella had nothing to live for. Bella isn't a good friend to the humans around her either, she wanted to be apart of something supernatural and didn't care about the details. My point is Bella wasn't manipulated, she isn't a victim, it is what it is, still a classic tho❤
You can be a victim and a perpetrator, but victim blaming is never good. Her choice was of the life she wanted, not between Jacob and Edward. She was absolutely using Edward for his immortality, but that doesn’t mean she deserved to be puppeteered by the Cullens. The reason she was boring with no personality was because her childhood was all about her mother Renee. She hadn’t had a chance to develop her own interests whiling parenting her mom. Bella being only 17, before she had had a chance at living her life and exploring who she was as a person, met Edward, who stunted her personality before it could blossom. If she had never met him or if she’d actually worked through the adversity of the Cullens all abandoning her, then she would have been better off. Maybe she would have gone to college and explored something more than just biology that she enjoyed.
How Bella wasn't manipulated? It's so obvious. You said "she had nothing to live for", exactly, bcs she was on extreme depression! AND it made her more easily manipulated, if she had loving parents and real supportive friends she probably wouldn't be so easily ready to abandon her life
@@MariaPaula-uw3ds agreed
Anyone who knows Alice's backstory, knows that Alice was easily manipulated, and also, extremely persuasive. She and Edward worked together to get Bella.
Yes, thank you, people have finally started to notice the behavior of this manipulative monster
I really liked contrapoints take on the dressing up/babysitting/controlling behavior in her video about erotic fiction. It’s written this way intentionally, because women wanting these things could be seen as a social faux pas at the time it was written. Women weren’t supposed to admit they *wanted* pretty dresses and to look beautiful. The fantasy aspect of the story, in addition to the vampires of course, is getting to be dressed up and be in luxury cars and houses and go to prom and do all the things women wanted without the shame of admitting they wanted those things and being accused of being vain or money hungry. Bella denying she wanted them, while part of her character, was a literary device of sorts so that the reader themselves could put themselves in Bella’s shoes and get those things without the social stigma or personal shame of being vain and self serving.
I also blame Bella as well though. You’re right about Alice’s part in everything as well like spot on! However Bella was really complacent she really could’ve have put her foot down and say no if she really didn’t want to do any of the things Alice and Edward tricked her into but she was such a people pleaser. Also besides the fact that Bella wanted to be apart of that world (vampirism) what else made her and Edward even compatible? If anything she always seemed more of herself with Jacob their more earthy ‘go with the flow’ type of people. I think Bella just wanted to be apart of Edward’s world so bad that she literally put up with anything even if she didn’t want to and I feel that both Alice and Edward saw this and took advantage of that.
Well she was like 17 against a couple hundred year old vampires idk who couldn’t blame her decisions a little
Yeah I completely agree with you. Jacob was great for her, because they’d known each other since childhood, their dads were friends, she had respect for the Quileutes that the Cullens didn’t have. I honestly hate SMeyer for many reasons, especially that she wrote Jacob the way she did in his toxic scenes and imprinting on his former crush’s daughter. I don’t care how she tried to spin it, it was objectively wrong.
@@TheAsh-holethe way that she ruined Jacob to make Edward seem like the right one for Bella all along and then give Jacob Bella’s daughter as a consolation prize is upsetting
@@melissaherrera940 right. SMeyer probably has some mental issues. I hear part of it is from being Mormon.
Its amazing how one author made all the characters terrible people including the MCs. I don't think any are redeemable. Concerning the Cullens, Bella, Charlie and many of the other characters.
Yeah i knew i didnt like twilight anymore when my cousin who was reading the books told me that jacob threated to throw himself off a cliff if bella didnt date him. Really cant be team edward or jacob.
I don’t remember if that was in New Moon or in Eclipse. All I know is that New Moon Jacob was better than Eclipse Jacob and I suspect it’s because Stephanie was not expecting Jacob to be so well liked, so she had to destroy Edward’s competition. I always joke around and say I’m Team New Moon Jacob because that was the best we ever got lol. It was all down hill after that book.
people think bella is an empty canvas and they have the right or some sort of better knowledge to draw whatever and however they want on her, but in fact, Bella wants to remain an empty canvas! she is boring and dull and she is happy being that way while people constantly try to push her into things she doesn't want to do!
most of the main characters are written this way, as if they need other characters to make them more "active" but what if I DON'T WANT TO GO TO PARTIES JESSICA?
Jessica was one of her worst “friends”! I could not stand her 😤
She is not happy being like that though, she had shitty parents, what had a huge play in how depressed she was to begin with. She was literally su1cidal after Edward left her in New mom, how can you think she was remotely happy?
@@MariaPaula-uw3ds she definitely wasn’t happy, but I bet she would have been if she’d had true autonomy over her life. The only time she was genuinely happy was when she got to become a vampire with financial privilege. She made a big play of it that she didn’t care about Edward’s wealth, but if it weren’t for his money and immortality, I highly doubt that she would have kept putting up with his 💩.
PLEASE DIVE DEEPER INTO ALICES MANIPULATION it doesn’t stop there I’m sure right??
You forgot about the whole bodily autonomy thing when Alice wanted Bella to end her pregnancy...
To be fair if your friend found out they had a high risk pregnancy that could endanger her life would you want her to go through with it? Yes her body her choice, just like a woman has the choice to end her pregnancy especially in the cases of rape and safety of the mother, she has also has the choice to give birth, but can you blame Alice or anyone in the position of an extremely risky pregnancy where they say yes to an abortion in that case?
She dressed her really well. I can’t hate that. I wouldn’t mind being her Barbie, but no I wouldn’t consider her my best friend.
The problem is that Bella is written to be "not like other girls" and therefore doesn't like girly things and must protest at the thought of girly things. However, these books were read largely by other girls who do like girly things and want to see their heroine doing girly things. So the purpose of Alice is to force Bella to do the girly things while still allowing Bella to be not like other girls. Because perish the thought that we allow our lead to like being girly, or that we respect the wishes of a tomboy lead to obstain from girly things, or that she and her love interest agree on a compromise. What sort of dangerous message might that send to young girls about self-acceptance and boundaries.
Its characters like these that make me really sad that they ruined Jacob. In New Moon, he was really a good friend that loved Bella for who she really was. Also, that book made me love them together as a potential couple because their dynamic felt so real and like the basis of a healthier relationship. But of course Edward had to be endgame so Stephanie had to nuke Jacob in the last two books 🫠
I found your channel today and I am already loving the analysis! But I think Alice and Bella became best friends at the end of Twilight because Alice helped Bella with everything (shower, getting dressed, etc.) during the time Bella was incapacitated due to the accident so they spent a lot of time together.
@@FernandaPereira-zd4gy thank you so much! but the thing is bella makes that comment about them being friends like alice said they would be before any of that even happened! lol
My favourite book/movie was New Moon. You know, the book that barely has any Cullen's in it.
I haven't enjoyed the movies in a long time despite watching them quite a few times, and I never read the books again. One time was enough. So I don't really remember any details or specific instances where I can say that she was in a toxic relationship. I was young when I liked the saga, so I wasn't thinking about important things, I was thinking about hot vampires and werewolves! So I am always confused when people say it is toxic. I don't like it but I don't know why I don't like it.
Your explanation is amazing. Thank you. I can now know a little as to why I don't like it. The whole imprint thing on Renesmee always threw me off too and seemed out of character for Jacob because, you know, he isnt a suposed to be a pedophile. He likes women his age, unlike Edward. No, Jacob. You didn't like Bella because of her future child. You were the objectively better partner for Bella, she is just an idiot (objectively better when it comes to choosing between him or Edward. After reading some comments i am reminded of other sketchy things Jacob did...yeah...not good. Just not as bad as the Cullen's. Jacob genuinely seemed to care for her is just that he had his own issues. Different issues. She is probably better off alone or with a classmate. Some of her human friends seemed nice but it was hard to tell because Bella rarely described them or payed attention to them so we didnt actually get to know them).
Also. Midnight sun is twilight from the perspective of Edward right? We could probably get some insight on the extent of the Cullens manipulation of Bella in that book because in that book we get to know what EVERYONE thinks. Maybe it wasnt even on purpose? Idk. Im speculating.
Number one: thank you for talking with so much passion. It's certainly missing these days. 😊
Number two: WOW.
Alice is one of my favorite characters...
But you literally just took one of my favorite characters and turned her on her head turned me on my head and made me look at Alice in a whole other way.
The perspective that maybe someone like Jacob would have seen.
The fact is you're fleeing out facts so fast that I am totally seeing what you are saying and you are putting it down girl and I just applaud you for not letting someone who is obviously a fan favorite to lot of people stopped you from pointing out all her flaws.
And let's be real here Alice is not usually someone who gets the most critique in the Twilight series.
As an impressionable 17 or 18 year old when I read this of course I thought Alice was just that exuberant offbeat and quirky friend that we all love and wish we had...
And yeah when she did things like "abduct" Bella or complains about not wanting a wedding or something, of course as a kid I'm going to think oh she's just being her silly Alice self so just let it go.
But yes Alice is married to a guy who murdered a lot of people and his best friends with Edward who basically murdered a lot of people.
The only slight argument I have is that Bella has clearly said that Jacob is her best friend (and he's like my second favorite character and even I see his bad qualities now) honestly Charlie's the best character😅
But again I applaud you for being very forth with an analytical and very factual and just putting it out there. I look forward to your other videos! I haven't seen this much disdain for Twilight in a while and let's face it that was the best part of Twilight. 😅
Kudos 🍎
Nah, you’re right, Jacob was her best friend. The fact that he had feelings for her changes nothing 😂. I think the only one who said she was Bella’s best friend, was Alice herself, so…..
nah, he wasn't, she had no true friends
he also wasnt her best friend, he also left her when he changed into a wolf, than was pissed of because he fewll in love with her and she didnt fall in love with him. we had this in 2 of the 5 movies, .
Well, I mean it is hard to believe Edward is a virgin after that long of a time. They don’t show him being so religious he feels like they can’t be together unless married. Bella would have been better off with Jacob. She could have had a much more normal life. Alice had a hard life and had psychological issues as a human. They don’t just go away because you become a vampire. I think she just probably hadn’t had many girlfriends ever neither did Bella. This led to this weird friendship like middle school age until you learn to discuss things and learn to say no. I really didn’t like Bella though. I thought she was way too young and immature. The whole baby thing and sparkling I hated as well. I love a good vampire story even a love one but let them be of legal age and had other relationships. I just can’t believe Edward held out that long that is insane to think at his age and vampire hormones wouldn’t have led him to have a relationship with another woman. Even during the time period he was born.
Tell me you're team Jacob without telling me that you're team Jacob 😂
Twilight is definitely one of those series where I love the world of fanfics it has spawned but I hate the source material, for reasons like what you pointed out,
Not excusing Alice's actions but i dont think its that black and white. Its due to Alice's power shed essentially already lived multiple lives with bella before bella even met her. I think the closest way to describe their relationship is someone who has been someone's friend for years but the person got amnesia so is starting from scratch. The friend with the memories knows almost everything but the amnesiac is starting from step 1 with no experience or knowledge.
Theres definitely a power imbalance but its not necessarily a black and white non amnesiac is manipulative and abusive as they know things about the other person without the other knowing they know.
I just found your channel because of the Jessica video, and had to whatch all your videos😅. I've read the books many times but never realice how bad of a friend/person Alice was particularly to Bella, especially considering that in Midnight Sun they imply that Alice would be like a good couple(?) for Bella if Edward didn't make his move (if you can please would you make a vid talking about it🙏)
Thank you for sharing your perspective in deep❤
I didn't even know Alice supposed to be Bella bestfriend😮 She was her love interest sister eho Bella got along yes, It's Alice who liked Bella for Edward. That's why she helped Bella, she wanted her to be together with Edward. It's was for Edward. Her brother for many many years, not a teen girl she just met. Duh
I thought it was pretty clear. Didn't know some people was confused🤔
So glad you're posting your takes on TH-cam
Some time ago, on Reddit, someone asked what the best and worst book-to-movie adaptations were. My answer for best was the Twilight Saga. Not because it was good in and of itself, but it did a great job showcasing how truly shitty the source material was.
Meh, the writer wanted Bella to experience all those things but “she wasn't like other girls” “she didn't care about all those girly stuff” that's why there were Alice and Edward to “force her”. Most people who are like Bella, don't have friends who will force them to live a little and when they grow up, they realise maybe making some memories along the way wouldn't kill them. At the end of the day, she enjoyed everything she was given without asking and/or wanting. Including marriage and the kid. Honestly, I think she totally deserved all the best because she was also willing to do everything for her loved ones.
Honestly, sometimes it's physically painful for me to force myself to do such things. I wish I had someone like Alice in life 😄
I just found your channel and I am officially obsessed with your analysis videos and I’m going to need you to do an analysis on so many more different series 😂❤
@@aayiahshuman3441 awww thank you so much!!! 💕
I was listening to this very carefully and seriously but then the line, "when her husband tried to eat Bella" 😂😂
I read the book and I dislike how Alice didn't respect Bella's wishes. That's not what friends do. Real friends don't make a puppet out of you
the whole series is chaos, i know the author is mormon but wth was going inside her head, it needs to be studied o.O
I think the book is wish fulfillment. The author wants those things badly, but doesn’t think admitting to it openly would make her be seen as a “good girl.” A story that forces her into these positions she secretly wants to be in is what Twilight is all about. Also it’s just how the female personality/sexuality works. You don’t want to choose a man, you want him to choose you, then all you have to do is give into him. Being in all these situations where Bella must give in feels good. That’s why it appeals to people. Bella’s discomfort is glossed over because it’s not important.
Oh totally. When I was a teenager I was so sexually represed Twilight was like my Bible. Still love it, but I think it's important to acknowledge the relationships portrayed are not healthy understanding that the problem isn't the book but the repression and how so many young girls and women would be or felt like they would be judge if they express their needs and wants.
This video is such clickbait. It could be true that Alice is just Edward's best friend and not Bella's, but if you read the books, you'll understand the different dynamics Bella has with the individual members of the Cullen family that are not shown in the movies.
1. Alice "forcing" Bella is like a mother or another family member nudging you to do something they know you'll either regret missing later in life or enjoy more than you think you would. How can you know you don't like something if you've never tried it? Without characters like Alice and Charlie in Bella's life, she wouldn't have a social life. Charlie constantly nudges her to see her friends. She wouldn't have pictures from her birthdays, prom, or wedding. How is that a healthy way of living? In the books, you'll find that Alice and the rest of the Cullens always meet Bella halfway-whether it’s planning a birthday party (which was so intimate and quiet that you can barely call it a party all for Bella's sake) or getting Bella gifts that they have to struggle to meet her standards. She asks them not to gift her anything expensive, and Edward and Emmett set up her music player in her truck because they know she won’t be able to do it herself (Bella admits multiple times in the books that she's clumsy). Instead of looking at Alice as not allowing Bella to dress the way she likes, consider it as someone making the process easier for her, knowing that if Bella says yes to a new experience, she'll probably back out if she sees there’s more work to do that she doesn’t enjoy.
2. Edward's proposal can be seen as "manipulation" if you must call it that. He was definitely controlling in Eclipse in many scenes, but he clearly says to Jacob that if Bella backs out of the wedding and chooses him, he will let her go. An actual manipulator wouldn’t have that open mindset. He wouldn’t leave loose ends where Bella could freely break their engagement if she wanted to.
3. Bella did not plan her own wedding because it's simply not her thing. Dresses, parties, and extravagant things are not her interests. Alice exerts control, but in a childlike way, which is evident throughout the books. Things where she did go wrong like Bella's birthday party are pointed out to her as her mistakes by not just Bella but Edward too in Eclipse.
4. It's clear, even in the movies that Edward invited Jacob because he didn’t want Bella to feel sad on her wedding day. This should clear up any doubts about Edward and Alice being "manipulative" for their own gains. Edward knew Jacob still loved Bella and that his bride-to-be was still affected by the loss of such an important person in her life-someone she had kissed just a few days before. Yet Edward went ahead and invited him to make her happy. It should be noted that he was still not on the same team as Jacob at that point (they only team up after Bella gets pregnant and they both become concerned about Bella's safety and disapprove of her decision to put her life at risk without consulting anyone else). Bella is clearly extremely happy to see Jacob at her wedding, and Jacob was happy too. How was that selfish?
5. Towards the end of Twilight, Edward quickly realises all the potential dangers he has put Bella in, and how it could continually affect her life and safety if he decides to make her part of their world without turning her into a vampire. He tells her this immediately after she wakes up in the hospital. Then again in New Moon, after Jasper loses control at the party, he questions Bella’s safety. The Cullens didn’t leave Forks to "abandon" Bella they left to protect her. It wasn’t about Edward being with her it was about keeping any vampire away from her that could potentially put her in danger. How would their plan work if Alice was still in touch with Bella? Another concern was that Bella would never have moved on from their relationship if she had constant communication with the Cullens. She would have been longing and hopeful instead of trying to move on and have a normal risk-free life. When they are reunited, Edward admits that the only reason he hurt her by lying and leaving was to make her not come searching for him and complains that she believed him so easily. That she couldn't see his love past that lie and chose to believe the lie instead of his love for her.
6. Alice returns because she thought Bella was dead. If she didn’t care about her, why would she even care whether Bella was living or dead? Maybe she had been keeping an eye on Bella from time to time, seeing her future to ensure she was okay. This is evident from their conversation in New Moon. Her vision of seeing Edward try to get himself killed by the Volturi came when she was waiting outside the house, letting Jacob and Bella finish their conversation. Vampires and werewolves are enemies by nature, and even Jacob talks disrespectfully about vampires-especially Edward throughout New Moon and Eclipse. This can also be seen in Breaking Dawn novel in various interactions between Jacob and the Cullen family, especially Rosalie. He calls her a "bitch," she calls him a "dog," and Emmett laughs in the corner because they all know it's just part of their dynamic.
7. Villainising Alice for coming to check on Bella or Charlie after she thought Bella was dead? How did it ruin any potential love story between Jacob and Bella? Jacob was always the second choice-how is that fair to him? Jacob deserved someone who would put him first, not second. Bella herself said on numerous occasions not to make her choose between him and Edward because it would always be Edward. What about Jacob trying to kiss her so many times when she didn’t want to? You can see Bella pull away from the kiss in the car in New Moon. What are we shipping in that moment? She didn’t even know Alice had returned yet and still refused to kiss him. Edward never tried to force himself on her. Even when she wanted him to be intimate he always considered her safety before even considering his own needs.
I only watched the movies and read the books to get the Barbie dolls. My parents said I wasn't a fan so I couldn't get them and I was too young for a job and we don't do allowances in my family. So pretending to be a fan of the series was the only option. My parents weren't really convinced but they did feel bad for me lol I was miserable the whole time, the books were awful and boring and I cringed through the movies. They caved and me and my sisters each got a Bella Barbie and me and one of my sisters got an Edward Ken while our other sister got the Jacob Ken.
I immediately set to work on making Edward a stay-at-home househusband while Bella was a vampire witch who was the queen of her coven. Edward was constantly being kidnapped by the bad guy of the day and Bella and her coven of badass witches and vampires made up of strictly just Barbies and the Barbies with broken necks that I turned into Kens saved him and the other Kens.
I legit had trans Barbie dolls and didn't know what trans was, now that I think about it.
Can you please explain how Edward was manipulative? I never read the books but in the movies it looked like Bella pursued Edward. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. This is super intriguing.
3:00 didn't Alice also tell Edward Bella was going to see Jacob and that's *why* he disabled her truck?
Stop with the Alice slander she’s my home girl. You’re right of course but she’s still my little mew mew.
Wow my mind is blown. I recently rewatched the movie I felt that some of Alice actions was off too me liek a red flag.
Recently got into watchign twilight with my be whos never seen it before or heard much about it. We are in our twenties and he does NOT UNDERSTAND why alice showed up in new moon like she's the queen of the town. smh.
Nonsense. Y’all are just looking for problems. Bella wanted to be a vamp
Right!! Who wouldn’t?!
Lest we forget, Alice was literally insane.
I mean her Dad killed her Mama and locked her up, to keep her mouth shut. She ECT treatment incorrectly which permanently altered part of her personality. Not saying she is great but she was a tragic character. Mental institutions at that time were barbaric. She also had a little sister and not sure if she ever got to see her again. Her Dad remarried quickly after having his wife murdered, to his mistress. Every character has a tragic past and most haven’t completely resolved their issues.
It should have been Jacob.
I thought I was the only one that didn’t think Alice was that great and didn’t think her and Bella had the best friendship.
MOVIE* Alice is literally my favorite character, I don’t appreciate slander against my girl 😭😭
Just now realizing that my ex best friend was Alice... 😑 Just another box yo tick that I eas blind to all the signs. (And also possibly another reason i hate Twilight... I didn't want to see myself)
Bella resisting to Alice's efforts to make her pretty reeks of the author trying to have her cake and eat it too. Like, she did want Bella to look conventionally attractive and have a conventional wedding, but she also wanted her to be Not Like Other Girls. So she made Bella disinterested in fashion and stuff and had Alice play the role of getting her all prettied up. So it's like "Look, see? It's not Bella wanting to put all that make-up and wear all those dresses! It's Alice doing that for her, Bella doesn't want it at all!" without realizing just how toxic that makes Alice look.
I was always confused whenever Bella called Alice her best friend. Like, what did she do to deserve it? Absolutely nothing! If anything, Alice terrified me in the books. She’s a legit predator that played with her prey. I would not hang out with her willingly, but somehow Bella feels safe around her. The whole series felt like Bella got stuck with a cult, especially from poor Charlie’s perspective💀
but for Jacob to become the End Game, Stephanie would have had to respectfully write native characters😅😅
Wow. Back when the movies came out I used to think Alice might be the only decent Cullen aside from Esme and Carlisle. This really opened my eyes and now I have newfound hatred for Alice 😂 love your content!
I always thought Alice was making her own counter Voltari so she collected Bella. Like Alice's powers along with Edward's, Bella's and Reneesme's make the Cullens a pretty powerful coven. Alice probably saw that before everyone else and went for it. It really bothered me that the one person that tried to convince Bella to stay human was seen as jealous.
This was the best rant I've ever listened to 🎉
In the movies, it’s kind of hard to see how toxic she is because the actress is SO SO SO good. However, the books… I hated the books so much. She’s such an enabler.
This is why I am and have always been100% Team Jacob. All the way. Screw the Cullens.