Are Electric Cars REALLY That Green? [New 2022 Data]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2022
- Most of us assume electric cars are better for the environment than petrol or diesel, but new figure published by Volvo seem too suggest electric vehicles may not be as green as their internal combustion engine counterparts in the short term.
Volvo Report [updated]: group.volvocars.com/news/sust...
www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/...
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If you really care about the environment, keep your current car and drive it untill it falls apart. Every time you buy a new car, the cost of emissions, materials, minerals are huge.
Actually scrapping your car and buying and running a brand new EV can be greener.
@@therealjpster riding bicycle is the greenest
@@jianyangkoh6386 of course it is. I don't feel this needs saying.
@@therealjpster Actually, you don't know anything what you're talking about. One person in a developed country can spend 100x more emissions/energy CO2, CO, HCx, NOx, etc, kJ, kCal, kWh in his lifetime than a poor person in a developing country. It's not just emissions from your car, it's your entire lifestyle, your house, your heating/cooling activity in your home, all your modern appliances, your vehicles, your travels, all your purchases including constantly buying new thing is a human activity measured in emission/energy.
So if you think you are "green" driving an EV, you're like many millions brainwashed to the modern consumerism. As I said if you really mean being green, move to Amazonas or Pacific islands living off the ground, using minimal modern amenities. Wake the f up.
@@TrumanBurbankFE I didn't say green, I said greener. But I agree anyway.
Reminds me of Luxembourg where 35 years ago we were told that diesel cars were the only way to go and where we even received subsidies to buy diesel engined cars. Fast foreward to around 2010 and suddenly we were being told that diesel was bad and to be avoided at all costs. The moral of the story is don't believe all the things that politicians say to you!
You can however, always trust politicians to lie.
The same mindset as global warming (which I hope gets here soon because I don’t like being cold). In the late 60s and into the 70s, we were told that the next ice age would come within the next 20 years. I only had ice in my drinks. Let’s Go Brandon.
Yes, the EU forced this directive upon everybody. Diesel drivers have been paying next to nothing for road tax here in the UK, £30/yr, whereas petrol drivers have been paying up to £400/yr - it’s a joke. Yet the diesel cars were pumping nastier stuff into our local atmosphere - diesel was cleaner overall, but only cleaner at source, much dirtier at use (where we live). My grandfather was from Luxembourg 👍😊
@@dannyboywhaa3146 my 1.9 TDI £30 Road tax :D
Don’t believe anything not even the date
Would be interesting to see a comparison to replacing an engine in a 15 year old car (or other major repairs) to keep it going compared to having a new car manufactured, and what sort of 'break even' number there would be. That would keep it out of the land fill, as well as reduce a lot of mining, manufacturing etc.
Spot on. Unfortunately we live in a disposable society.
I would also be interested in seeing a comparison with the impacts of getting a new battery in EV's to contrast that with engines in gas cars.
They will never allow that because if wouldn't fit in with their green ( brainwashing)agenda.
@@ShiningSakura A battery refurb, rather than a complete replacement, is usually way cheaper.
Even if you want to do an engine swap by yourself it's very hard to get the car road legal in many parts of Europe, for example, in Sweden it has been completely illegal, but quite recently it became possible but still just something enthusiasts do, and then it's usually with bigger engines..
Rory talks a lot of sense. Well-balanced and properly thought-out views put forward. Respect.
It's great that an EVangelist, like yourself, Rory can be open and balanced when it comes to discussions like these - big respect for such fabulous content, dude 😎
Good thing jeff bezos built a 420 foot yacht and drives a private jet every day, goes to fuckin "space" for no reason, but I have to worry about my cars co2 lmao life isnt a tragedy, its a fucking comedy
I saw a reaport that said 60000 miles but muy 1liter Suzuki celerio skods city go use far les Lan a model 3 some thing like 240000 miles before you you equal you brake eaven
not sure that he is
@@davidwillims2004 why? Please explain
@@gingernutpreacher no sign to speak of that he is an evangelist. why do you think he is?
The comments are gonna be interesting to check back on for this one 😅
🤣🤣🤣
Get the popcorn 🍿
They delete any opposing comments, ask me how I know!
@@ChromeFlakes go on then
@@ChromeFlakes You mean like 'The Guardian' - 'Facts are disposable and comments not free'?
Volvo released the study in the name of transparency. It gives the numbers that people can actually refer to, and does so in an impartial way. This is what we need more of.
Volvo is moving towards full electric. It’s foolish to believe they’d be entirely impartial.
@@paulwilliams667 and yet their report was actually quite critical of going full electric, showing that a balance is required as BEVs aren't inherently greener than ICEs; it depends a lot on how long you plan on keeping it, how many miles/km you intend to run, and how green the energy matrix of your country is. If your country generates most of its energy by coal or oil, the time needed for your BEV to become greener is much longer.
@@ikemotosystems1434 That's my point! They ARE biased towards green energy and their report still isn't conclusively EV>ICE.
Once you take into account the mining processes, lack of recyclability and energy expenditure to transport raw materials, EV tech is absolutely awful for the environment. There shouldn't even be a debate on this subject. EVs won't be viable until solid state batteries or similarly efficient tech is widely available.
@@paulwilliams667 Ah gotcha! Thought you were referring to the report being biased! Completely agree. I do believe EVs will be the future of mass individual transportation, but only when we can actually solve the issues of making them having a huge impact on the environment.
Ironically, Toyota is the one who is experimenting and developing solid state battery tech. The one company Tesla fans love to shit on and predict the doom of, are likely positioning themselves to eclipse Tesla in the fight for the BEV future.
By far the best car reviewer there is….you can’t help but listen to this lad.,even if your not particularly into the car that he is reviewing.Well done.👊👏👍
Great material as ever, and I love the future forward slant at the end! Thanks for being one of the few reviewers who publish thought provoking content like this.
Thanks for this. These questions have been rattling around in my mind for a while and this goes a long way towards answering them. Well done, as usual. 👏👏👏
Honest, straight forward, intelligent, respectful…well done. In the end it is how we are as human beings with each other that truly matters!
Great report!
You're absolutely right that efficiency of EVs is a key to reducing overall impact. My 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Electric gets 5 miles/kWh, where the new Hyundai Ioniq 5 only gets around 2.5 miles/kWh, because it's huge, heavy and not aerodynamic! That's going backwards...
Totally agree. My i3 was much more effecient, interesting and clever but flopped due to high manufacturing costs, put BMW off the efficiency route. Hopefully manufactures will soon wake up and rid us of the horrible SUV trend. Mercedes vision eqxx looks much more like the way to go
As an Ioniq 5 owner I can confirm that is less power efficient then the OG ioniq. But my energy consumption hovers somewhere around 3.2 miles per kWh. And it's winter here so it will increase as temperature will rise.
@@Levdbas Pleased to hear that your consumption figure is better than the one I've heard. Still room for improvement though.
But on the other hand. More people are likely to take notice of and get the new Ioniq because, they actually look pleasant and let's face it, aesthetic does influence interest and consumption.
yes, but thats the same as comparing a 1.2L car with a 3L ICE car. Ionic 5 is luxury in comparison and therefore a lot bigger and heavier.
8:16 Yes! Producing smaller batteries (EV's with smaller batteries) is one of the most important keys to making a positive environmental impact with personal transportation. Thanks for this excellent video presentation! Keep up the good work.
Well, no. Or at least, maybe not as much as you may think.
There is also greening the electricity supply, which as the numbers in the video show can have a very large impact on lifetime emissions.
Also, there is the battery production. Most of the energy here (at the factory) is expended in the electrode drying ovens. Using a dry battery electrode process saves an enormous amount here. (Size of plant is reduced by maybe an order of magnitude, capital expenditure on battery plant is IIRC more than halved, costs are reduced significantly - not 50%, but 20%, 30% or maybe more and plant CO2 emissions are slashed).
There is efficient battery management and drive trains. Tesla is commonly reckoned (as Jim Farley at Ford has admitted) to get significantly more range from the same sized battery as other manufacturers.
Finally, it doesn't matter if you produce a smaller vehicle with smaller batteries if nobody buys it. Part of the solution is persuading high polluters to pollute less and the less you ask them to change their accustomed life style to do so, the more success you will have. The more you try to force people to change their lifestyle, the more opposition you will create and the slower the whole process will be.
There is also considerable room for improvement in material extraction, Mines could operate using solely electrical equipment, which would then automatically get cleaner as electricity production produces less carbon dioxide - which is happening more and more for purely economic reasons, as renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuel powered generators and batteries are cheaper and more effective than gas peaker plants. In refining, aluminium already uses electrical means (always has). Steel, however, uses a lot of coal in blast furnaces, most of it either to heat the iron ore or to "burn" the oxygen in the ore to produce metallic iron. This could be done with (hopefully green) hydrogen, and is starting to happen.
@@colindavidson7071 Thank you for your thought provoking reply. I especially appreciate your holistic approach. I'm looking forward to what the future holds! :)
@@colindavidson7071 What about the hideous nature of making spent batteries not as bad for the environment as conventional nuke waste? Hydrogen is just a complete joke, it's just way waay too problematic to store and handle on a massive scale, also the whole Green movement is just progressive marxism and Agenda 2030 'Hunger Games' end game, there's 7K volcanoes hiding under the sea spewing Sulfur Dioxide and Hydrogen Sulfide by the shitload yearly, that's the actual greenhouse gas, not inert harmless carbon, a plant food, but everyone's a lemming zombie sheep that loves a hysterical narrative.
man 's CO2 has no significant effect on the weather, it's never been anything but a big lie to get you to surrender your freedom and lower your standard of living.
@@c.a.r.s.carsandrelevantspecs so wholesome
Been shouting about this for ages. Thank you.
Thank you for posting, I really like your channel.
A nuanced and reasonable discussion on a contentious topic? Tell me it isn't so!
Seriously though, this was an enlightening video and hats off to Volvo for the study, even if people don't like its conclusion. Volvo has identified room for improvement and it's important to note how quickly technology and industry changes the equation.
What I don't like is people claiming Volvo had some agenda and that they want to keep their ICE vehicles around. That's not the case. Volvo has very specific plans of phasing out their ICE cars and it is more aggressive and quicker than most so-called legacy companies. No, Volvo did a study to get information out. And people can accept it or not. But there's nothing wrong with others studies being done as well.
@@benjaminsmith2287 I think they're just studying for the sake of studying. it's not for determining their future or anything, just sharing some info yknow
This is one of the best monologues I've heard about EV's V ICE - thanks Rory, very well said.
Awesome and concise summary of that report. Super interesting figures from Volvo. Glad we can put some facts forward to inform a like for like discussion.
I'm not overly concerned about the green-ness honestly. Instant torque is fun and easy to use. I have ample solar on my roof so it's free to drive. When I subtract gas and maintenance costs from my truck to my EV, I come out ahead.
I’m glad you identified that electricity production is getting greener & battery production will too. On the flip side, crude oil is becoming dirtier to obtain. Here in the U.S. we’re using off-shore drilling which has had massive spills & fracking which decimates the environment.
China just built, the largest coal plant ever. They promised to “start reducing” coal burning, by 2025.
At the current rate, it won’t matter.
@@billpetersen298 Maybe its needed for a stable wind turbine and solar cell production :)
@@bingoberra18 It’s not needed, by any measure. Once the pollution is out there, it’s not going away. China had a rural agrarian economy. (Low impact). They could have learned from the mistakes of developed nations. And developed, I a manner, that was slower, but more thoughtful. Especially, including ethnic, and religious diversity.
Windmills and solar panels are also not green, or good for the environment. They add another layer, to what was done before. Polluting less, is good, but not after you’ve wrecked the place.
@@billpetersen298 China absolutely needs to be taking more action, but we should not forget countries like Australia or Canada that produce 2.5x as much CO2 per population.
Try not to worry the oil is slightly radio active and the water in it is put back in the ground under pressure and just like in a engine block it cracks the surrounding material thus creating earthquakes and the water can an does seep into your water supply....
Great video guys! More of this type of content please. This is an important debate to have and hopefully by doing that we can get solutions that benefit the planet and all in it. Rory...you da man!
I liked your delivery. You Really know how to show both sides of an issue.
Rory, you're a fantastic host. I don't have much else to say, but you genuinely are.
Great presentation on this. One thing I didn't hear mentioned unless I just missed it is about what happens once an EV's battery has reached it's life cycle. If it becomes another thing that that has to be disposed of them that comes with additional environmental and cost impact. If they can somehow be recycled then there likely is still environmental and cost impact but in a different way.
Lithium batteries can actually be recycled, it's just not easy and thus expensive so you don't see much of it. This is absolutely something governments need to invest in significantly since it's obvious corporations will not due to it not being very cost effective for them.
@@Enclave. This is part of my point of how that needs to be factored in to any comparison of an EV being 'greener' than other options.
@@dieselmutt8865 Well of course, I didn't say it wouldn't. In fact I commented earlier on this video this: "I've been saying for years that an EV making sense depends largely on where you live. Where I live? Over 90% of my electricity is "clean" as it's from hydro power instead of burning fossil fuels. An EV makes a LOT of sense for where I live, a hell of a lot of sense. But you head somewhere that gets most of their energy from say coal burning? Becomes a lot more murky."
Regarding the recycling of li-ion batteries though, it's a bit ridiculous that governments aren't going hard on the recycling of them, it's a limited resource and it's a resource that we use in so many industries that goes FAR beyond just EVs. Government investment into the recycling of lithium batteries is something that should have been going on for decades now once they started becoming the dominant form of energy storage in the consumer market.
@@Enclave. Governments do not have to go after recycling of batteries... Companies are emerging that take up the recycling of batteries, tons of valuable materials in batteries, and when done properly the recycled materials are more pure then from new mining, so battery manufacturers are happy to buy it from them for a good price.
Redwood materials and Umicore are growing battery recycling companies and making good money out of this, no need for subsidies. Tesla and VW are so big they can take up the recycling of batteries by themselves, both Telsa and VW are investing in this.
EDIT 21-04-2022: Actually we learned during the Q1 earnings call, that Tesla is ALREADY using *50 tons per day in recycled materials* for production of their cars (not only batteries but a lot of Aluminium scraps too)
Panasonic making the 2170 battery cells in the Tesla Gigafactory in Nevada, is also already using recycled battery materials, delivered from Redwood, so it is already happening! (just google Panasonic and redwood recycling, and you will see a bunch of articles about this)
They also need to make the batteries cheaper, as the used buyers will not be able to afford a new one and the car will end up in the junkyard.
Brilliant, informative & hopefully AT LAST, a BALANCED view! Thank you so much & very WELL DONE RORY AND VOLVO! Like you, I have a fully renewable green tariff so 29,000 miles or so sounds about right &, more importantly, workable.
Be interesting to see with the massive numbers of 8 + year-old ICE cars still around, whether the same will apply eventually to BEVs, in which case, greenness may prevail at last. Of course, that is much less of a guide because the CO2 comes largely from the battery pack which needs replacing more often than the car, at present.
The batteries should last at least 200k miles before needing to be replaced but that all depends on how they are treated (since letting them fully discharge often significantly reduces their lifetime). Of course different and better batteries will also be coming in the future to replace current lithium ion.
So clear, Educated,precise,well presented, direct.. Impeccable mannerism. Keep up the good work of bringing about awareness...So proud of you. 🙏
The best option at the moment i think is to keep using existing cars and to try and keep them going for as long as possible. Maybe try and make it easier a cheaper to repair existing cars aswell.
Having your car today would be worse in 10 years than if you bought an EV. This is also true when the battery is replaced, according to another video by Engineering Explained who considers the worst case scenarios for EV's and battery replacement.
@@Jimsimi Buying a new EV is way worse for your average consumers wallet.
If you have an existing car that's running fine, passes emission inspections and is not a completely absurd gas-guzzler, I don't think it's environmentally good to scrap it in favor of a hybrid or EV. Keep that thing running and put off the lifecycle costs of producing a new car for as long as possible. But it's more a question of what to get for your next vehicle when the time eventually comes.
Unfortunately we live in a world where NEW rules and its sooo easy to get loans credit pcp etc to enable stupid people to have everything lastest thing TODAY and in 6 months when they have ragged it about on cheap tyres and crap fuel trade it in for the next punter who can actually afford a decent car... They do it all over again along with the lastest i phone blah blah.
Hence why the planet is in such a pickle.
This EV fad is just another short term plaster to fix the issues and line the big player's and governments pockets.
By definition existing ICE cars will become more and more expensive to repair. It's the nature of such vehicles to suffer wear and tear in any number of important components. Having owned ICE cars for 20 years and an EV for six years I can attest to the MASSIVE savings in maintaining a car and fuelling it. ICEs just can't compete.
As someone who made the switch from ICE to EV 3,5 months ago and advocated for EVs for a while now I was a bit miffed at first seeing this video. But if I take off my EV glasses for a moment I once again have to agree: EVs have still a way to go to become as green as they are advertised to be. But depending on where you live and how much you drive this break even point isn't that far away. I personally estimate that by the time the initial lease (3 years) for my Corsa E is over I should have reached or maybe even passed the break even point, considering the electricity mix here and my average mileage per year. Thanks for this excellent report, keep them coming.
it can take as little as 3 months in the UK to break even
I also enjoy listening to Rory Reid as I rate him as a fair and balanced journalist. My Fiat 500e will receive around 60% of its charging from my solar PV system and it has a much smaller battery than a large SUV, so I'm not sure how it would compare with (say) an ICE Fiat 500 hybrid bearing in mind that over half of grid electricity here in Scotland comes from renewables.
@@briangriffiths114 Fair to say (as pointed out in the video) that a lighter EV with appropriate battery size/range is more beneficial - and a 500 vs 500e would be a similar comparison to what Volvo have done. The kicker here would be:
A) What are the realistic lifetime emissions for YOUR particular 500e vs if YOU would've been driving a 500?
B) Where did the "Italians" source the materials for YOUR 500e, and to what extent did they seek to protect the environment in that particular geographic area in order to protect (and benefit) the locals long-term?
Fair?
@@wahaha6961 All very good points. I do not get the current trend for large and very powerful cars (whether ICE or BEV) that can usually do 0-60 in under 6 seconds but I seem to be in the minority. Having never driven a BEV prior to the Fiat 500e, I am impressed with it and intend to keep it for a very long time.
@@briangriffiths114 In 2020 97.4% of electricity consumption was from green sources in Scotland. I think your 50% is all energy consumption, including gas etc… for EV’s in our country we are are doing well from a green electricity generation standpoint.
low income individuals cannot afford to buy an EV. i'm concerned that gasoline will be a tax on the poor in the near future.
It already is 😂
@@Pedro-0839 And you think the cost of petrol and diesel won't? How about when the huge taxpayer funded subsidies currently offered to the oil industry on an annual basis finally come to an end? Expect your fossil fuelled car to cost 4 or 5 times as much to run when that happens...... driving an EV will always cost less in "fuel" than an ICE car.
Great video Rory and very well balanced.
Very interesting! Thanks.
Great review Rory! Thoughtful and balanced discussion. I'm from US so our affordable EV choices are more limited than Europe at this point. Out of the box thinking from companies like Electric Brands x-bus and others that may address the affordability and versatility of EVs world wide. BTW, your discussion on EV vs ICE in this video persuaded me to subscribe to this channel. Well done!
I applaud Volvo for being open about this issue, a lot more than anyone can say for other mainstream manufacturers. The lifespan of an EV and how it's charged are really what's important: ICE cars, for their entire lives, pollute, after already polluting in the manufacturing stage, whereas EVs at least have a break-even point, and a Chinese-made EV operated in Poland may take near 100K miles to hit that point, whereas a Swedish-built EV driven in Norway could hit that point with its first owner and then every owner after that is getting places with minimal to no impact on the environment. These studies also take a look at the data from EVs that already exist and have been on the road for years as opposed to what's being produced now. Let's face it, Tesla isn't a super green company, and their battery tech has improved, so disappointing stats from 10-year-old Model S cars can be discounted as the vehicles being produced today are more efficient, use better tech, and will have longer lifespans, *especially* if their battery is replaced somewhere around the 100K mile mark.
How many miles are batteries rated for. Do they include figures for any gradual degradation? What about the point when it's time to change the battery. Before I heard it was every 10-15 years or so but perhaps it's longer now.
Totally, and I think this also shows that to really improve the greener-ness of EVs, manufacturers need to focus on reliability and lifespan. Batteries should last longer, as they'll be the biggest replacement and the one that hurts the environment the most. But mostly make EVs that can go half a million kilometers +. Not to continue the trend where it seems like all cars are made for the first buyer, and then no one cares if they go to the scrap yard after 200k kilometers. Who cares if the second owner drives with an eco benefit if they have headache after headache with all the electrical faults or rust.
Small sample size but all the Teslas I have checked for degradation seem to have lost less than 10% range over 150-200,000 km. Leafs much more of course, I have a 190,000 km gen 1 leaf and it has dropped to 59%
I also tested a 300,000 km electric taxi that had 98% battery remaining on a fairly odd and heavy battery chemistry.
@@integralhighspeedusb what is the price difference between your leaf and a similar generation Tesla ?
No impact on the environment means the electricity and the tires are all green. Do they come from a recyclable source yet?
Excellent report. Thanks
Haha awesome 👏 great job explaining!
It would be great if there was also a conversation about the environmental impacts not directly related to CO2, such as the ecological impact of mining for the raw materials and the real world battery disposal/recyclability. Dealing with damaged batteries such as in crashes are also a major issue which we don't seem to want to talk about.
Been saying this for years.
I also have a question as to why so little investment in comparison is put into clean energy through water seeing as we live on a water based planet.
There have been numerous water powered cars over the years using frequencies to separate the hydrogen and oxygen. But quite strangely the creators always seem to die under mysterious circumstances and their work just disappears. 🤫
@@78KRS really interesting what you wrote, going to check this out… see what I can find 😉 thank you
@@AgnesVivarelli1966 Are you talking about Stanley Meyer? I watched a TH-cam video "5 inventers who died mysteriously". A Russian guy invented a plasma battery that powered his house for a year, he disappeared without a trace and men in black confiscated his devices
Germany's Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) has created the Grimmer-Saravia process, enabling a highly eco-friendly way of mining from lithium in geothermal plants; existing facilities. No need to take months and months and millions of square kilometers and destroying fresh water supply and polluting the land. We will discover new methods in the future, whereas ICE is a dead end. We know that. We've put in trillions over the last one and a half century.
Also, as for recycling Redwood Materials is doing great.
"It would be great if there was also a conversation about the environmental impacts..." you said. You could have found these solutions being worked on by simply Googling it, and discussing it here down in the comments, or writing your own blog, shooting your own TH-cam vlog or even shouting it off your rooftop.
@@keithmarshall7715 yeah he's one of the water car guys probably the most well known.
Interesting but it’s also important to work out how often that original owner will drive that EV long enough to reach that offset point? What if they need to replace the battery pack before that point? The clock gets pushed back since the batteries make up most of the negative impact. Or if they sell it after a couple years and buy a new model and so on. I’m glad Volvo did this report but there are numerous secondary effects that I think aren’t fully accounted and the true cost is a bit more. I hope more great advancements are made and this was a very good presentation.
Totally agree with you on the battery replacement part. Not so much on the trading the car off early part because if the original owner isn't driving it hopefully someone else is and possibly that's someone who can't afford a brand new one or simply chooses not to buy new, or a first time EV owner that wants to try electric without that new car cost. So the miles on that car will still counting. I agree with his point and it's the one that i think is possibly the most important one... How the electricity is produced is to me the most important part of all of this. Along with much better batteries
@@heavenleigh111: Components age. LIke my parents 30 years ago, I don't drive much in retirement. Especially with the desire to be greener and with the Covid-19 pandemic recently (and maybe long term for those of us lacking youthful immune systems).
So If I keep my 2017 Camry for 15 years but only drive it 45,000 miles it won't be dead, but I wouldn't count on it lasting as long at 12K miles a year with a new owner as I would a car only 3 to 4 years old.
This is good info to have. I just assumed "BEV is better" re CO2, but since I live in coal country for electricity (dark red state and local electric utility runs purely on coal), it might make more sense for me to be patient, and to buy a good, efficient, HEV next time, or maybe a PHEV with a moderate sized battery. Because it's seldom I drive much over 50 miles in a day anyway.
Very good point, was thinking the same thing regarding the battery replacement, not to mention the toxic gases given off by decomposing batteries
@@rogergeyer9851 2 other major points this video mentioned a bit, but did not evaluate. Firstly, the study claimed a "life" for the vehicle of only 124k miles, but only compared the emissions across 90k miles. 124k seems dreadfully short to assume for a battery life or any other life of the vehicle, and it brings up point 2. Secondly, he notes that the vast majority of the carbon footprint for the BEV is in manufacture of the battery, so this brings up a HUGE uncounted carbon cost which would set the EV way back, and perhaps below the ice once again. The Ice may keep steadily climbing as the mileage goes up, but the BEV adds huge stepping stones every time a battery needs to be replaced. OR, its valuable life simply ends, and you are assumed to replace the entire car with brand new manufacture. Where the ice just keeps going for the carbon cost of fuel and maintenance.
It also brings up what q mentions... what is the carbon cost for disposal and/or recycling of the batteries? Should that not be added? The ice engine simply gets melted down with the rest of the vehicles metals, but the rare earth materials in the batteries need to be recovered.
I was to make my comment, but you already said it. So, I too think one thing missing here is the battery longevity. Petrol cars can run for decades until the body starts literally rusting off. I'm not convinced any battery can go over ca. 7 years without needing an expensive replacement, hitting the green graph to new low again. EDIT: And I know there are people saying it's okay to lease a car for 5 years anyway. But if you look at the used car market, there are LOADS of petrol cars 10-15 years of age that look fairly modern by all design standards and based on climate run well. Mostly only lacking in digital monitoring-controlling screens etc. I remember someone reviewing a used semi-luxury car and saying all good, but no USB charger plug...
Wow this was very enlightening. Thanks for presenting the facts objectively.
It would be interesting to see a comparison including hybrids as well. Smaller lighter batteries than a full EV but with the ability to provide regen under braking vs a traditional ICE.
Hybrids are almost as bad as regular ICE according to research in Denmark (on actual real life usage). Mainly because most people don't charge them. Their emissions are twice as high as they were suppose to be to get the government tax break for "green" cars, so the tax breaks on hybrids is getting axed. And this is talking plug-in hybrids. Regular hybrids are just a joke.
Such comparisons have been done numerous times for years. Rory had this discussion with Robert Llewellyn 12 years ago and despite Rory lying about the CO2 figures for EVs they still came out way ahead of hybrids. Yes, that's right. Rory decided he would reject the official CO2 figures for EVs and just doubled the figure and EVs still left hybrids behind and ICEs nowhere to be seen. EVs are just cleaner and nothing anyone does or says can make them dirtier no matter how hard they try.
Always good to see a real discussion, that takes into account arguments on both side and doesn’t downplay the reality of a complex issue. I’m curious, does anyone know any data on power/mileage loss for EVs over time? All batteries wear out, with diminishing returns especially after many uses and recharges. I’m assuming an EV must get significantly worse “mileage” at 75K miles compared to when it rolls of the line.
So Tesla's have gone past 500k (miles) and only been diminished to 80% battery density. Thats 800,000km... so not that much at all. Kind of crazy to realize that we are at a time where the battery and drivetrain last that long without any maintenance. Bear in mind that this is early on battery tech, its only been 13 years since Tesla was created and the whole auto industry started switching over only a few years ago. ICE has had 100 years and the best it can do is tons of maintenance, maybe 400,000km with some major maintenance and only 30% efficiency from the tank to the wheels. In 10 years it'll be an embarrassing comparison between electric and ICE when you factor in all the competition that will be ramped up in that time.
What they don't tell you is the battery replacement cost which is 2/3 of the original car price & costs in very rare metals mining are high!!
Not to mention we only have a certain amount of rare earth metals hence the name rare earth, the EV dream is exactly that "A DREAM" it's not practical for the long term a bit like "GREEN ENERGY" actually
Listening to your report was a joy, as you were obviously not taught English at an American school. Your wording was concise, with brevity in mind, and pronounced properly. American students are not even taught to write in script anymore.
Excellent explainer! Great job, peace!
Good report!
Great commentary. I've seen a few articles stating that the break-even point is about 60,000 miles here in the US. Of course, as you stated, it depends on your electric energy mix. The Department of Energy has some great information on this subject.
Glad to have this conversation, I hope that the new method of battery manufacturing (dry cathode instead of wet) will help reduce the amount of CO2 in battery production.
You do know that Carbon Dioxide is the Gas of LIFE! Reduce the CO2 < 150 PPM and that will kill all the plants and trees on EARTH! The earth ship will have to replace the P and add a "T".
While increasing the CO2 to 1,200 or 1,500 PPM will increase top and root growth of plants and trees, while using less water and fertilizer. That sounds Good to me.
Do the batteries last 90k miles? The making of those solar panels have a large carbon footprint too. When the battery is replaced, how much does that reset the mileage?
its good that you do the stuff they not telling people about electric cars. the inforstructure for electric cars needs to pick up a pace its nowhere near ready and somehow i dont think it will. in 1914 they had electric cars with a range of just shy of 90 miles in all that time we havent really improved alot in that time. great videos as always
A good discussion at the end. As pointed out in the video, what this study shows me is 1) Battery production needs to get cleaner and cheaper - which is something everyone is working on already and 2) our energy grid needs to move more towards renewables and away from coal. Unfortunately in my area, the local power companies have managed to get legislation passed over the years that really strangles the ability of consumers to put in things like solar panels on their homes. That needs to change.
"Unfortunately in my area, the local power companies have managed to get legislation passed over the years that really strangles the ability of consumers to put in things like solar panels on their homes. " Wow!!
Wow? What country is it?
@@jonasweber9408 The good old USA. Laws governing things like solar panels on your home vary wildly from state to state. Some, like mine, have very anti-consumer focused laws courtesy of the power company and their lobbyists.
@@JookySeaCpt damm that’s not cool
@@JookySeaCpt the US government is in general anti-consumer tbh
New to this channel. Was so ready to hear some petrolhead bozo make a big song and dance about the emissions and downsides of EV production and usage. Pleasantly surprised to hear a fair and balanced approach to this complicated topic with a reasonable and logical conclusion. Picking a side and only seeing things one way seems so common these days. Love hearing someone who has actually taken the time to properly understand a topic and not just present the information they like.
when do replacement batteries come into the equation here? and what do we do with the old ones.. I just know some folks who have had to replace them and it was not after as much usage as you would have hoped for out of the battery..
Watch the TH-cam video posted by Volkswagen, of their EV battery recycling plant. Then you'll be able to see the recycling process for yourself.....
Very informative as always by Rory
Rory, thanks for this vid. We need tough conversations in the open, so I am glad this is starting to happen.
Another point to take note: raw materials. The amount of lithium, cobalt, copper etc available via mining is limited. To bring more online, higher prices for the commodities will be needed. This will also cause enviro damage and should be factored in.
It would be interesting to see new power storage technologies put into vehicles other than lithium ion. Things like sulfur or graphene based cells, even structural batteries, shouldn't be too far away.
I just made this same comment and then saw yours. Also the way that Cobalt is mined involves low pay child labour. It makes me wonder if BEVs were manufactured ethically, if they would become unfeasibly expensive.
@timemachine_194 until you need to replace all the batteries in the car for about the same price you paid for the car when it was brand new, to get at most sources of lithium you have to strip mine the topsoil away, which even done "ethically" still takes its toll on the earth and no they are not recyclable not at cost anyway, heck in Washington state we have the very LAST glass recycling plant in the US why do you think they shipped off most of that junk to China when China would take it? Because recycling is not cheap and each time you reuse the material you have to put more energy in and get less out due to refuse material (sometimes called slag). It's a pipe dream not a terrible alternative especially if one lives in the cities, but for a country like the USA it won't work because people don't want to have to get lunch waiting for their car to recharge.
Many companies are working on better battery designs, it'll be very surprising if 10 years from now the current lithium batteries aren't replaced by a superior alternative with far better energy density and little to no use of lithium and cobalt. Hell Tesla says that their batteries already use zero cobalt.
Once the cars days are numbered the batteries are toxic yes? What about that issue because toxic waste is worse than CO2 that we all breath out and trees use to survive of I would have thought
bro. my father in law literally disregards every source I've shown him with similar math. saying that EV's are greener over their lifetime but worse out of the gate. You have explained this super well and he is a VOLVO fanboy. So he won't disregard this time! HA! great vid
Imagine if cars were meant to last longer but if you took your ice-powered car and instead of making a new model every year you made a new model every other year and then made parts to keep the car running and then instead of getting a new car every 5 years you drove the wheels off the car that you had that would be greener for everybody
Yes, but you've disregarded the majority of the video which agrees exactly with your father in law!
he literally just said that EVs are greener
This is probably the best video I’ve heard on the topic.
Do you have Any source to suport your opinion? I would like to read more on this subject
Interesting and enlightening. I wish he could have spent some time on the other pollution factors besides only CO2 that effect the balance, such as the materials and methods used to gather raw materials and the environmental costs of those. Battery manufacturing is a pretty dirty business, as is oil extraction and refining. Also, what long term effect is there on recycling/retiring these batteries. All of this needs to be compared to get a balanced look. These are huge decisions that affect us all in long term ways. We need to make our decisions on data and logic, not emotion.
Thats part of the report.
I guess that's on thing that I didn't here addressed is when the batteries need to be replaced then the EV cars would take another big hit as far as pollution! Didn't here that factored in !
and solar cells use coal in the process ......
Need better mass transit
C02 is a natural gas that plants feed off and can be offset by fast growing trees, renewable energy and electric vehicles produce toxic by product far worse than C02 like you mentioned with batteries etc.
Most of the world’s renewables are made in China by Uyghur slave labour and coal power plants are used to power those factories there made in. Than there is the toxic by product produced during manufacturing, repairing and disposing of renewables.
Alongside EV’s having the exact same toxic by product from manufacturing, repairing and disposing of EV’s themselves.
Than there is the growing cost of disposing of EV’s, batteries and renewables which will cost tens of millions annually.
I'd like to see the additional cost of replacing batteries and their disposal added to this figure as well.
Didn't even look at the report, did you. Not that it's very detailed it's in their page 42.
@@michaelthomas7898 Its the artificial life-time mileage limit used in the report that is the biased problem to support electric vehicles. That's why they released the report as it just favours electric cars. If they were honest about vehicle lingevity and ownership of petrol cars then the curve swings the other way again.
@@captaincrash12 You're not even close. Nothing gets better with age except whisky and wine.
@@michaelthomas7898 Steel Chrome bumper cars will be around long after our plastic cars are waste. You know it. Maybe drink your wine on your steel car picnics and run whisky in the boot for profit. :)
@@captaincrash12 Cars haven't been built with chrome bumpers for almost 50 years now. Think about it.
Accurate and precise. Nice video Rory
Very fascinating and kind of tells us what we had a feeling about. I’d like to see urban Mike’s comparison and see how they’ve taken the 90,000 miles. Is that on a motorway at a constant speed for instance. I’ve always hoped there would be some magical green fuel so ICE cars could be used cleanly, so you have the best of both worlds
People with a vested interest are constantly pretending there is a green fuel that will make ICE cars as green as EVs. They don't exist and never will. If it burns in order to make your car move then it cannot be green or blue or grey or whatever deceptive colour reference they use next.
@@DesmE_1103 what other types of fuels could we use?
@@DesmE_1103 thx
Just started watching the video, however I cant remember where but I saw a study (or an article) stating that if you can keep your EV for 8 years then EVs are greener when you consider the total pollutants produced from the rare materials mining, processing and production of the batteries needed to power an EV are much higher than an combustion engine car.
I’ll be sticking with ICE until it’s no longer an option. Loving my M2 CS.
goeingdriver29: Your ilk is why I'd like to see the government make the CO2 taxes on gasoline and diesel about 20 bucks a gallon. If you're going to be the biggest part of the problem as long as legally possible, you might as well pay to help clean up the mess you insist on making.
Every thing in a grocery store is there thanks to oil!
@@rogergeyer9851 did you even watch the video?
@@keithmueller1448 and it all used to be there due to horses and wagons too, so does that mean we should not move on?
👍👍👍👍. Outstanding presentation!
Great video. I have always wondered is while the car itself doesn't emit gases, the process to generate the energy to charge it does-in an overwheming number of scenarios. something I don't think your run of the mill environmentally concious person reallly considers. Without a doubt, I think the beginning of the video sums it up best- the solution is not that simple.
Yes, but you do have to watch the rest of the video. And bear in mind that this is the beginning of the EV era. Manufacturing will become more efficient and greener.. more electricity will be generated by wind and solar. The UK is predicted to be a net exporter of electricity by 2030 largely due to massive investment in offshore wind farms.
Some great information in there presented in a very balanced and fair way. The trouble with much of the 'EV's good or bad?' debate is that so many people who have already made up their minds on the issue just blindly parrot the same pseudo-facts over and over again even if they are demonstrably untrue to demonstrate that they are right.
Volvo did it because they genuinely care about the environment as a whole. That's commendable.
If Volvo really cared about the environment maybe they would make efficient cars rather than great big SUVs that require a 100kwh battery to get sufficient range.
@@paulheelis4798 that is a pretty silly remark.
@@Nnomadd really? Can you explain why please?
If they cared they would stop making cars
Greta told them to.
What about battery replacement? How does this influence the stats?
Great presentation. I’m curious. What is the depreciation of the electric version versus the petrol version?
Electric vehicles keep value fairly well.
@@smartwatchonpluto makes sense, less moving parts hence less failure points.
@@smartwatchonpluto Also after 20 years? Maybe not many moving parts, but a lot of electronic parts. My 22 year old VW van now has done 250.000km and will probably do another 250.000km without major costs.
Engineering explained also did a great video on this. Including buying used ice over new ev
Big 👍for this content Rory, and to Volvo for starting an open debate and pin pointing out the elements which still need improvement
Good information, well presented.
65'000 miles from even a small high efficiency ICE car like a Ford Focus releases 14 metric tonnes of CO2, the same range on a similar sized electric car like a Nissan Leaf releases barely 4 metric tonnes, it takes some incredible torture of the numbers to get such a large difference in manufacturing carbon footprint.
The "trick" Volvo is pulling is using an extremely large battery manufactured in the most environmentally damaging way possible but without the equivalent for the ICE car they use for comparison. Like an aluminium engine block could be made in the same country as the battery (where most electricity comes from coal power stations) and get similarly massive carbon footprint costs.
As our energy gets cleaner over time the production and running of EV’s will get better too. It’s the direction we’re headed in that’s most important.
I'm living in a country with extremely backwards energy grid and politicians concerned more for the coal industry than climate restoration. I was considering getting an EV next but after this news I don't think I'll be able to reach the break even point before swapping the EV for a new car.
Excellent point. But the challenge with your assumption is that the growing demand for EVs would eventually place a correspondingly higher demand on energy production, which, according to several papers, cannot be supplied by renewable energy sources alone (at least for the time being). Power producers would therefore become more dependent on non-renewable fuels(crude and coal) for energy generation in order to meet this demand. Of course government restrictions can always be used to control the usage of crude and oil, but that would result in higher energy prices, an example of which is already happening in some parts of the world.
except the LIBs are made in China with Coal.
The 'Well to Tank' comparison between the two is one of the most persuasive arguments. Oil rig to oil refinery to oil tanker (ship) to oil tanker (road) causes massive polution every step of the way. Compared to wind or solar generated electricity distributed at the spped of light down a cable!
this
Yeah sure if you live in europe. In my country, South Africa, our power mix is like 80% coal, in that case a EV will never match an ICE.
Its not that simple at all. What are solar panels and wind mills made out of, and where did that material come from, and what maintains those green systems? Fossil fuels. Again, it reduces local pollution, but it doesn't delete pollution as it has to be manufactured in the first place to produce green energy.
@@uni4rm Yes it actually is that simple. Because if you wanna play that game you also have to ask, where does the steel for the oil platform, the oil tankers and the trucks comes from? All creation pollutes, but we have the choice between creating something that only pollutes when created, or something that keeps polluting even after it is created.
It's actually that simple.
@@TheSaltyAdmiral Good point.
truthfully they all are in the same ball park + or - pending on region ... what matters is; what's your application and what suites the local area best... all have there + and all got there - ... Ty for sharing, great content
Great video. For the arguement about the cost of mining the materials for the batteries and shipping them around the world makes sense if you consider how much it costs to ship 10000 batteries at a time instead of one or 2 at a time. For the materials to make batteries though, Tesla has already found a new element to make the batteries and it's nowhere near as difficult to mine.
In Soviet Union, when I was a child, I remember that there were no junkyards for cars. As Cars were deficit, they always got repaired and put into use again and again, and again. When the Soviet Union collapsed, we started to import 15 to 25 year old cars from the West and drove them happily, since those cars were much better than Lada and Moskvitch, which we were accustomed to. Where I am heading with this? Well, now I wanted to remember my youth and recently bought a 35 years old Volvo 740 and realised two things: 1) It is simply impossible that 35 years old electric car cold be operational, while Volvo of the same age can be used daly with no problem nicely. 2) It is much more greener to buy used car, then to buy a new electric car, since, utilising any car and especially an electric car, it pollutes. So, if we want to pollute less with our cars, buy used, fix old, make manufacturers produce less and at the same time more durable and long lasting cars.
There is a local company near me that takes those 10 year old Nissan leafs (still run but have shorter range) and replaces the batteries from newer wrecked cars which ends up giving the older cars further range than when they were new.
EVs can be put back on the road too.
Plus you get it all cheaper. But so called "desiders" don't or don't want to understand it.
Pepole call this "green transformation" greenwash.
I’m sure exhaust from that 35-years old car is lovely, fresh air.
And all fuel that was burned is also green and all flowery.
I owned 740 and 940 Volvos and I know what you mean BUT Teslas are going further , with far less maintenance, than those cars . . Another thing that ICE does not count is the carbon foot print of the Oil Chance, Muffler, Brakes and the thousands of other ICE parts . .
So many wrong conclusions, my friend... :) That volvo already polluted >3 lifecycles of an electric car, and I don't see why a 35y old 740 would be more reliable than a 35y old electric car. All this is coming from a volvo fan who had 7 volvos, so I can hardly be called an EVangelist :)
Excellent video and so refreshing to see a more neutral and open discussion about the pros and cons of both types. I have long thought that there needed to be this kind of comparison made and kudos to Volvo for putting it out there. Now let the open discussions continue so we can work to wards better fuel efficiency that is socially responsible as well as environmentally conscious. And just to be open, I am a diesel car driver on the verge of making my switch to a hybrid/electric car.
What is the lifespan of the battery? And how are they disposed of?
Thanks for the video. Not sure why race injected into it, though...
What a great explanation. It's good that Volvo have put this out. Anyway most mere mortals can not afford these type of cars.
Right? Now that cars are going up in price by 2030 the average price of a small sedan will cost 60k
@@VioFax yeah same here but you know that with time all cars become a pain in the ass to fix unless you rebuild them
@@VioFax Which is crazy because you are contributing a lot more to saving the planet than producing more new electric cars. Thats a given. So Volvo is not as honest as it makes out. They have most governments convinced.
Something to also consider, when the batteries are at the end of their useful life, replacement batteries will be needed. So the footprint will massively increase again over I.c.e. cars.
Cold climate areas will have higher degradation on batteries further diminishing e.v. vehicles useful life span.
True but one thing that wasn't clear in this video is if the "lifetime" figure was taking into account electric energy production only using fossil fuels, or renewables, or both. And one thing that I'm also curious about is if we're taking macro things into account like battery production, are we also taking into account things like oil production and transportation into the figure?
Who said all cars have to be electric?
@@Tron08 Good point i always wondered if those figures are put into it. Fossil fuels definitely have an infrastructure that has to be taken into account.
Probably the most important thing i think of all the time is the efficiency aspect of it. ICE are only 1/3 efficient of a steam turbine. Which makes an electric vehicle charged with fossil fuels just about 3 times as efficient. So for ever mile you drive in an ICE you could drive 3 in an electric car on the same amount of fossil fuels. Basically we could triple fossil fuel reservers if everything was electric. If we need to use fossil fuels then steam is the best option all around.
@@Tron08 If you watched the video, that was all calculated in. Try watching from 5:25
EV cars are dangerous, if you get a car crash they cough fire in seconds (i saw one myself) and also could kill you by high voltage discharge even when stopped
And at what milage do the batteries need changing out?
Excellent Video, very informative. Common sense light went off!
Great video, glad Volvo is up for open discussion. I would be interested to see where do hybrid cars fall into in this breakdown and whether they would be the better middle ground between production and emission efficiency, at least until better methods are developed for EVs.
Hybrids are known to be worse. Effectively the worst of both worlds
@@findingneutral426 I thought that too and vowed never to buy one but given the state of our charging network and much improved offerings I changed my mind. Having lived with one for nearly a year now I can report that it actually makes some sense as long as it is of the plug-in variety. About 95% of our journeys are completed on electric power alone and there is enough power to comfortably keep up with suburban traffic. The petrol engine is reserved for the few longer journeys or the odd spirited bit of driving. Range anxiety and materially longer journeys are non-existent. Both power sources are therefore used in their most efficient settings. Oh and yes, I charge it every night…
@@findingneutral426 First I've heard that.
What about building gas stations? Or setting up chargers? Or the energy used to build the machines that produce the parts?
This is so difficult to calculate, and people will keep finding a way to adjust these numbers.
Every analysis proves the ICE dirtier and dirtier.
@@crhu319 We need a breakthrough in Solar Panel development and deployment - - on every feasible rooftop to help offset the power-grid drain of all these electric cars.
Also super-insulating homes to reduce heating and cooling costs and solar hot water heaters too.
Its the perfect video from a great car enthusiast channel towards the car guys
What's gling to happen to all those used battery packs? I'm genuinely asking, I haven't researched at all. Maybe it's still coming up in the video, I hope so.
Great video, honest and open. It would be interesting to compare an EV to a green hydrogen powered ICE. I am thinking at the moment due to the astronomical cost of EV’s there is a ‘trendy’ look at me show driving a £70k+ EV! What about families with low disposable income and parts of the world where keeping your 20 year old petrol or diesel car on the road is essential. I’m observing and watching what happens over the next few years.
Green hydrogen will always use more energy than a battery EV, but it could be a good solution for storage once some major production issues are solved.
The same thing will happen as has always happened. Today's EV's will work their way down the scale, as depreciation brings them closer to those whom rarely, if ever, buy new or newer cars.
Great video mate very balanced, just curious have they included having to change the battery after so many miles/years in those figures, as surely that would take them longer to equal the co2 out put of an ice car.
There is no need to change the battery in an EV, it will outlive the car. Some of the early technology back in 2009 and 2010 had batteries that degraded fairly quickly due to many things but new technology it does not happen.. I have an EV made in 2013 (63 Reg) and my battery still has 98% state of health, so that change of batterie3s does not happen.
@@juliandavies7890 Battery packs can and do fail.
I'm not suggesting that is common, but lets keep things real.
@@juliandavies7890 From a perspective point of view it would be nice to know the make , model and specification of your car. Was it bought new and how many miles has it done please?
@@juliandavies7890 How many times have you ran your batteries down to below 5% charge, you know on a long road trip or something. Is it all city miles or highway miles. Are you in a extreme hot or cold location ? Point is just because you have not had it happen post 2013 doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others.
You can’t buck physics. Nearly all EVs run on Li Ion based batteries. ALL batteries lose capacity overtime due to number of charge cycles, temperature cycling and internal degradation. Even with perfect software controlled charging, elaborate cooling and ideal use (for Li Ion use between 85%-10% charged) after about 8 years the battery capacity will have fallen to about (that’s approx folks!) 30% of original capacity assuming typical daily use and charge cycles. Yes you can still use the EV but with only 30% of the new battery range. An expensive new battery pack needed every 9 years or so……
I'd be curious: how long (without manufacturing) can you drive an electric vehicle until it becomes less sustainable than a bike including manufacturing.
And I mum with three kids and shipping will ride one? Or a worker living 20miles from their place of work? Don't get smug in your privileged inner city living...
I wonder how the figures would have been affected when factoring hybrids. Unfortunately the Prius made hybrids undesirable but nowadays supercars and the new Ford Powerboost use hybrid powertrains for performance as well as extending efficiency. Hybrids have less emissions and smaller batteries and maybe be the buffer we need to have electrification technology catch up to the infrastructure needs as well as greener production processes.
A bold move from volvo everyone is pushing ev can’t say I’ve heard of many people discussing the footprint of the vehicle over time well done volvo
It’s sad that posting real data is called a bold move, in a day where profits matter over anything, especially the truth, I guess it’s necessary to cheer it on, rather than simply expecting it
@@nick_0 This is a SCAM! Artificially set a limit of 124,000 Miles to benefit ICE.
There’s been plenty but most don’t agree with this one. Most put the estimate at more like 20,000 miles, although a bit more for an SUV like the XC40.
@@Neojhun not really, you could see from the graph that the EV and ICE lines are consistent, so it doesnt take much to see where the graph goes... you could also argue it benefits EVs since their batteries will need replacing at around the 15 year mark, so there is another bump in emissions. also volvo have committed to be EV only by 2030 so not in their interests to big up ICE 😂
I would like to see the impact of the battery replacement at the 5-year & 7-year points. Given that most ICE engines last well over 200,000 miles, that makes for 2-4 battery replacements if driven 10,000 miles a year, 20 years. Most people won't go for the cost of a battery, so the car gets scrapped. The ICE car just keeps rolling, or sold, and still keeps rolling. Environmental impact changes dramatically.
Current batteries nominally last at least 100K miles (and 8 years), but that means the degradation is about 20%-10% after 100k miles driven. (measured on high mileage Tesla Model 3 cars, degradation is closer to 10%, but it would be a little bigger if the same distance was driven under 10 years)
So only one battery replacement is necessary if you want to keep high mileage. But probably it could last for 15 years, or 150K miles, if you are fine with a range of 200 miles (for lowest mileage Model 3)
@@adamrak7560 I know over 8 EV (Chevy & Tesla) owners in this area (Knoxville TN). Three have had to have battery replacement in less than 6 years. I am talking about the cars range being seriously degraded, unable to make it even 100 miles. Others are pretty happy but only drive 20-40 miles most days (to and from work).
@@raybergeron2999 there are a few percent outliers, but that is not the norm. I have looked at large statistics collected from many cars, and there are some with significant degradation, but the majority is following a nice curve, which points to about 10% degradation after 100K miles.
I have looked at only Tesla data, they seem to have fewer battery problems nowadays than others. I expect the other manufacturers to quickly get up that level too.
(also I have not looked at anything which is older than Model 3 because those are too few to be relevant. So the statistics would be worse if we include the oldest Model S-es. Battery tech improved a lot in the last 10 years.)
(40 miles a day is more than 100K miles after 8 years, so that is close to the expected values)
one thing to keep in mind, as it stands, comparing ICE with BEV as equals with similar footing is wrong, more like comparing a senior, that had literally a 100 years to get its act together and develop infrastructure pitted against a student, that that has far more promise, but has some hicups to address, before going trully toe to toe. For example, battery tech grows so rapidly, that every year there is a need to re-check the progress, as previous faults are either lessened or solved entierly, ICE cars have just gotten increasingly more complicated to gain a few percent of efficiency (still @ just ~30%, against 90-95% efficient BEV motors). Every year electricity becomes greener, gas doesnt, infact gass gets more increasingly difficult to obtain and gass leaks pose serious additional environmental threats along the calculated ones. Also, gass can not be manufactured by anyone like electricity and that poses a threat to be as a bargaining chip in a trade war or an actual war, like with Russia. Every year new developments on battery recycling in large scale are developed and well financed and it is a known fact that 97% of the battery can be recycled, the tech is in scaling phase, not long before it is mandatory by law for manufacturers to have a recycling program in place. Infrastructure also is developing at a rapid pace, from 0 to now in just 10 years. By the way, battery packs consist of cells, if there is a bad cell, the whole battery pack doesnt need to be scraped, it is possible to change out the bad cells and mount the battery back into a car.
@@atistiltins6163 Wrong, and wrong bud. Just wrong. You have no idea, maybe do a little more research on battery packs, and if you look into things a little more you'll find clean energy isn't really all that clean.
The car in the windstream at 08:35 has the form of the Jaguar XJ220 from the 1990s.
Great video!! Too bad $ and pride gets in our way of everyone being better
I think business models could also be part of the solution: with an increasing uncertainty around which technology to choose for their cars, I’ve seen many people gravitate towards car leases. “I’d rather pick a car for three years since I don’t know whether a Diesel will still be okay in five…” If there were more (popular! I know there are in theory) options to finance cars for longer periods of time people might actually get to that tipping point. TLDR: 2-3 year leases are part of the problem/solution.
I’d rather lease a car because the modern electronics are garbage and are ruinously expensive to repair, that is if you can find someone who can do it. The main dealers seem clueless and operate with their heads in a field like cash cows chewing the cud.
Not sure why leases are the problem. It's not like they get scrapped after 3 years, they just get sold as used cars and keep running for the rest of the cars life.
People doing these comparisons always have ridiculous lifespan expectations. This one from Volvo had 124k miles, that's 10 years of driving for the average Swedish driver, but the average lifespan of a car is 20 years. And electrics are not showing any signs of having a shorter lifespan, with batteries projected to last close to a million miles.
And for anyone who drives more, like anyone who works with driving (taxi drivers, delivery companies, even trades like me who drive to customers) end up driving significantly longer. I drive 20k miles a year, and according to Volvos estimate my van should be dead now, when in fact it's running perfectly fine, and I'm only replacing it because the electric van will come out cheaper than keeping my diesel van, and ofc a new van for same or cheaper price is a no-brainer, not to mention that electrics are significantly nicer to drive.
@@matthiashejlskov5008 that is true. However, what happens to the people returning their leases? They give up a perfectly fine car to get a new one unnecessarily (which has to be built from scratch etc.). If that same person / family kept the car for say 6 years instead of 3, fewer cars would have to be made which would make a positive impact on the environment. With more "older" cars on the roads, revenue from repairs/maintenance could probably easily make up for the decrease in sales. And this is true no matter the technology (EVs vs. ICEs). Building fewer things, keeping them longer, taking care of them > the cleanest possible energy.
@@franzst.664 I'm not sure I follow your argument here.
If the lease cars weren't sold as used cars those people buying them would have to pay more for a new car instead. It's not like the concept of leasing means there's more cars on the road. You'd still have the same number of people wanting a car.
Leasing just means the people who are willing/able to pay to always have a new car can do it without having to buy and sell, and the used car market gets a stead influx of cars.
If leasing didn't exist those people would just buy a car and sell it after a similar period.
The concept of leasing is only an economics thing. It has no effect on the number or age of cars on the road.
If car companies where actually clever, and cared about the environment they would focus on recycling old cars. What I mean here is they take your old car. They rework an electric motor into it for a set price and than instead of building a new car you pay for extras they can retro fit into your car. This would be incredible for classic cars and drive the market in such a different way!
Recycling of the scrap, used in cars & general heavy industry does happen though & it's actually cheaper to outright build new cars on a new manufacturing line.
Retrofitting is too boutique & custom to serve the mass market. Aside from Tesla most manufacturers' margins are too thin, as achieving economies of scale is always the desired outcome which means they need to seek standardisation & build EVs from the ground up.
That being said, recycling batteries is something that should & will play a bigger role as batteries are the most expensive components in the cars.
It happens at a small scale just now. You can buy a kit to retrofit your classic Mini for a mere £20k!
@@pumpkinhead456 that’s the problem it’s 20k.. haha
EV west in california has been retro fitting classic vws and porches with electric motors well before ev scene became a thing
has anyone ever looked at the O3 output of the air cooled electric motors. i suspect it would be quite high. ground level ozone bad right
I said this and see your point but how long do the battery last before need to replace them also I was speaking to a national grid engineer he says at the moment the grid will not cope with we went all EV