I don't even think that many changes would be needed to make the Na'vi feel more alien. Just some changes to make them feel more in line with the rest of the species on their planet. Second set of eyes (maybe near the temples of the skull) and the 2 sets of arms (if they felt the need to keep the silhouette the same, just have them held against each other when not in use) and they'd feel much more at home with the rest of the fauna on Pandora. (Personally maybe some sort of folding canine tooth analog but can take or leave that.) They absolutely could have gone so much further given they had Wayne Barlowe on the design team, just looking at his personal alien designs in Expedition/Alien Planet, and I'd absolutely love to see a big movie with that tier of design involved in more than just the monster roles
I feel like once you know some of the behind the scenes of avatar it becomes more insidious. They cut songs, and entire fictional instrument, and more, all because it felt “too alien and un familiar” to producers. Which has got to be the most obvious parallel to forced assimilation and how native culture was looked down on and erased simply for being “different.”
It's also a logical decision when you're aiming to make one of the biggest grossing (so, universally appealing) films of all time. A shame to be sure, but more like what you'd expect than insidious.
Was the instrument removed specifically from an indigenous culture? The design process of the film involved basically world building an entire alien ecology from scratch, with hundreds of unique alien flora and fauna, work which would have necessitated many such cases of things being cut or iterated upon until they fit the vision for the world. It's interesting to think of what other worlds this scale of effort could portray for sure though.
I always felt weird about the core concept of the movie, the avatar bodies. The movie treats it as pure novelty because that's what it is to Jake, but from the perspective of the Na'vi, wouldn't it be kind of ghoulish? I really can't get over that underlying horror. It could be a very interesting plot element in a story about aliens, but avatar isn't a story about aliens really. Idk, it's not a complete thought, just a feeling the movie gives me. I really hope to see more indigenous voices in filmmaking in the future
I agree, they barely touch upon that despite the Na’vi being clearly aware of the bodies and genuinely dislike them to a point. As seen when Sully firsts meets the tribe and then in the second when they say his kids have demon blood. It’s extremely glossed over tho, which just adds to disappointment for what these movies could’ve been.
Imagine a race entirely alien to you with technology you can't even conceive of wears the skin of your people, they have an extra finger, and a facial structure that just doesn't look quite right. So disturbing to think about, I also wish it could have been a subject that got more attention.
Na'Vi women designed to be sexually appealing to humans reminds of that fantasy and scifi meme. You know the one, where there's like a giant inhuman insect man with pincers and a scorpion tail, but for some reason the female of the same species looks like a pretty human girl except with compound eyes. To their credit, Na'Vi men also have the thin waist and slender build, so not quite as egregious, at least.
@@komickid833 Well, if you're doing anything short of satire, sexual dimorphism should still be sensible in some way, and it's just strange if it's much more more anthropomorphic. You can actually go some interesting extremes with it, such as those species where one of the two sexes is a tiny sack that has no real life besides attaching to the other sex.
THE TREES COULD HAVE BEEN PURPLE. The trees could have been purple. There are footprints all over the franchise of an initial intent to push the uniqueness of it but every single time they’re walked back and scrubbed over to make it more ‘palatable’ and ‘familiar’ it’s so soulcrushing. I still kind of like the films, there are good elements in them still, but it hurts that I could have loved them so much moreeee
You are so right. The trees definitely could have and should have been purple. Would've been way cooler. I'm glad he mentioned the Sideways video because Avatar's fantastical A L I E N score that the consultants spent months on is my roman empire. Like we could've had something really different and cool but instead Cameron rejected it and said "gimme a Na'Vi 'Amazing Grace'" and we all missed out on something potentially interesting in favor of boring samey bs. But it made a fton of money so there's that I guess /s.
You’re telling me the (literal) world building I loved so much could’ve been better?? I love Pandora, I love the bio-illumination thats depicted at night, its by far my favorite and is 1000% where my love for glow-in-the-dark things comes from.
this is me with the music. theres a great video on here about how the avatar team hired a bunch of ethnomusicologists to come up with an entirely unique and alien sounding musical philosophy (at least to the western ear) and then they ended up scrapping all that work for some simple orchestral with some singing and drums bc cameron found it *too different* aruughhh makes me wanna rip my hair out that we'll never hear any of this wonderful work such talented ppl put so much time into [edit: ah lol they mentioned it in the video]
I would’ve loved that, too. But it’s clear it’s to humanize(lol I know) them. Ppl are more sad about trees dying than coral reefs dying, due to closer connection with them. It also helps color contrast, too •3•
Too many cool colours; purple trees don't contrast very well with the Na'vi and wildlife appearance they chose. (they don't contrast that well with literally anything other than whites and pastels actually, from experience! Cranberry hibiscus are not quite purple, but they give a very similar effect and while they're beautiful, they are not cinematically striking against any dark natural background.)
He claims that it's for his family and tribe's safety but I'm pretty sure humans are still attacking his forest tribe anyway and he could've avoided endangering tribes previously living in peace if he didn't do that.
That part was hilarious. There's so much in the first about how horrible it is they're being forced out of their ancestral home and how awful that was, yet in this one it really didn't take much of the runtime before Jake was like "So long, good luck with the humans who don't know where I am, hope they don't torture you to find out!"
@@jujublue4426 They're not. Or at least it wouldn't make sense for the humans to attack the clan. Remember that the RDA's main obstacle is Jake as he is the one disrupting their supply routes, slowing down their progress. Miles Quaritch was sent to hunt Jake down and if he and his team found Jake amongst the forest Na'vi, the fighting would put them in harm's way. Since Spider was captured and knows the whereabouts of the clan, Jake and his family had to leave. The logic is that Jake not being there would lessen the danger to the forest Na'vi. Jake has gone into hiding with the sea Na'vi and it seemed to work pretty well for a couple months until they had to send for Norm and Max when the whole Kiri seizure thing happened. The humans are not specifically targeting Na'vi. They're just mining the resources of Pandora and only kill Na'vi if they get in the way. Therefore, if Jake is no longer disrupting the supply routes, then the humans have no reason to go after the Na'vi.
@@jujublue4426 I think my reply got deleted but why would the humans still be attacking the forest Na'vi after Jake left? Unless the forest Na'vi are still disrupting their progress, It doesn't make sense. The humans are not specifically targeting the Na'vi, they are mining Pandora's resources and only kill Na'vi if they get in the way. Since Jake is the main obstacle as he disrupted their supply routes, the RDA sent Quaritch after Jake, not the Na'vi. If Jake is found amongst the forest Na'vi, the fighting could put them in harm's way. And since Spider was captured, he knows their whereabouts. Therefore, Jake and his family had to leave to protect his family and the people. He went into hiding amongst the reef Na'vi and it worked until they had to call Max and Norm after the whole Kiri seizure situation. So it's really not hypocrisy. It's logic.
@@idontknowwhattocallmyself912because they wouldn’t know where Jake is until after they couldn’t find him in the forest. It was literally a play for time.
I always felt that the idea of colonizers very literally inhabiting the bodies of those they're colonizing was an underutilized concept, thematically speaking. Especially when a human in the body of an alien would suddenly be subject to very different senses, how would that change how you interact with the world? And would it also not be kind of horrifying to the na'vi to see a person possessed by an alien? There could also be something there with how many modern indigenous people are also descendants of colonizers, and how that parallels with a protagonist who has the body of an alien but the mind of a human. But I'm not really equipped to work that one out, lol. I just really wish the film had more to say.
Oh gosh, at 7:54 when James Cameron says that being with those indigenous people of brasil was like living in avatar and then the sudden cut to a scene jn the movie where you can see how he interpreted what he saw and unintentionally made a parody of it SOOOOO UNCOMFORTABLE 😭😭😭
You mentioned that having more indigenous people in the writer's room and as producers would be complicated and involved. This is part of what gets me; it's been 13 years! There was plenty of time to reconsider their approach. They put so much effort into breathing life into their world through VFX and other artists, who did an incredible job don't get me wrong. Still, they didn't seem to give 1% of that effort into giving life to indigenous stories and experiences that the films are supposed to revolve around.
Where can they find people indigenous to Pandora? A fictional planet? All humans are indigenous to some place in this planet. No matter your ethnic background, you have just as much to say about alien lifeforms that are fictional...
I think what might have been interesting is if Scully had been indigenous-American and having an internal conflict about his ancestors had gone through and survived, what his relationship with that is and how it has shaped him, and paralleling that more directly with what the Na’vi are going through and seeing how that could change his character or better understand his ancestors and current experiences, and that might have sold me more on Scully and netiri’s relationship because they would have found some common ground I think even if his character still had work past being complicit in the current occupation. Just a thought experiment.
Omg that would have been so interesting! It would have been so much better than him being just another white dude 🙄 soo many wasted opportunities with the Avatar movies. Let's hope they learn in time for the inevitable third one.
No that’s would suck, the whole point of sully is that he is a basic American white militar, he’s ignorant, racist, dumb and don’t see the navi as people, but when he spent times with them, he starts to change, to learn, he evolved as a character to a better person, that’s the whole point
I wonder what your opinion on Avatar Frontiers of Pandora is. It's a game about the kidnapping of na'vi children, and I've seen a few indigenous people praise it for how it handled culture disconnect when you're taken at a young age, etc.
the entire indigenous community worldwide, except Westerners, have praised Avatar, it is the #1 movie in all colonized countries for a reason, they have invited James Cameron, he has joined global protests, Palestinians dressed up as Avatars for their liberation movements, etc. "North American" indigenous people think theyre the only Brown oppressed group, but there's a bigger world out there
@@user-gl6xu1wy7g wow. Imagine not all colonized people being a monolith and one group understanding it as flanderizing their culture while another culture, overseas, with little to no connection to the culture being flanderizing it, thinks it's fine. Who would have seen it coming.
@@user-gl6xu1wy7gPalestinians aren’t a colonized people, so they aren’t a good example. They are impressed, but they are not colonized and Jews are indigenous to the region. Avatar was created with North American indigenous people’s in mind, so I can understand why they may view it a little differently from other colonized peoples. I don’t think either “side” is necessarily wrong for feeling the way they do.
The best thing about these movies is the extensive amount of academic writing and criticism that people have written about it. Every missed opportunity from these movies has been an opportunity for other people to share their knowledge and experience
22:48 I don't like the fact that while Neytiri is like this super impactful, attractive, mysterious lead character in the first movie, it feels like soon as the male lead character "catches" her, she becomes a barely visible, weak, even irritating character that really gets no strong moments on the screen anymore. It's very strongly written from the male-leading perspective, where the female character is objectified for a short period of time for the pleasure of the male character (of the male audience) and can later be forgotten when she's not on the 1000% obsessive focus of the male attention anymore (like a taken woman, mother of children rarely is).
@formidablity yeah, I couldn't believe Cameron did that to her, since in the first movie she felt like a really strong, well fleshed out character. I get that more attention was on the kids overall in the second movie, but even with that excuse, with the time and moments she got, she was literally nothing more than a necessary supporting character. Her own parents were more impactful characters in the first movie than she was on the second one! The people who hadn't seen the first movie would have no idea who she is.
@@Kotifilosofi Exactly! I think it’s bs that once female characters get into a relationship, they get cast to the side for the male character to “shine”. It shouldn’t be that way, like isn’t the point of a relationship to bring out the best in two people?
I'm not indigenous. However, I grew up during the '70s and '80s. I've seen the progress so many tribes have made since those years. I'm sorry far too many people keep insisting that Native Americans are a defeated people- that's simply not true.
@@theundead1600 This is a very ignorant argument. The fact you can't tell the difference between being Indigenous like Native Americans or Native Native Canadians and being Indigenous to a place speaks volumes.
I was so mad after I watched that Sideways video and found out we could have had such a different sound to the Avatar film, and I still am! Great video, as someone who is African I found myself identifying with certain aspects with the Na'vi people and their culture/struggles
I think Cameron has good intentions, but he's going about it in a really flawed way. I don't know if it's ignorance, arrogance, or even latent paternalistic racism, but I hope he involves more indigenous consultants and writers as the franchise continues
isn't good intentions but lazy empathy the entire problem with white savior ideology? Most people have "good intentions" no matter how evil what they do is.
The movie is not about people indigenous to any place on Earth... Let James Cameron make his own movie... You go and make a movie the way you want it made. Much better solution than forcing artists to bend to the will of other people. And we end up with a greater variety of films as a result... No one should be making art by committee, that is not art at all...
As creative as human beings, are we also pull from our surroundings, and things were familiar with this is no different than Star Trek or Star Wars, or any other fantasy film with other cultures involved in it even the hobbit is based off of European cultures, but that being said you can’t get upset at somebody, pulling from a real life experience of a culture that actually exist on planet earth. We’re all human beings, and we all influence each other in one way or the other even when you look at language language that are in a certain area have similarties as well. He wasn’t wrong for pulling from real life cultures, especially since this whole film was celebrating the culture in their values within that culture. pulled from many different tribal cultures all over the world. The main two I particularly noticed was African and Native American. He may have pulled from some more but I don’t know.
Really nice, thorough video. I like that you pointed out the issue with the indigenous input in the films. Studi, Curtis, and Evans are _actors_ first and foremost- they shouldn't _have_ to suddenly pull double duty as language and cultural consultants in this multi billion dollar blockbuster series, just because Cameron was too lazy to hire additional indigenous writers and producers. Especially considering these native actors probably weren't _paid_ additional compensation for their informal second jobs, and most certainly weren't given writing credits for them. Another point I feel doesnt get touched on enough in discussions about this franchise is the need to caveat any criticism with "But the graphics tho!". Everybody's gotta spend time praising the visuals before they can say anything negative about the bits that actually matter- the story and context of the film. Maybe I'm just an indie-film practical-effects curmudgeon, but I just don't care about how fantastical and realistic the CGI is in the latest Disney moneymaker. Like, no shit, if I poured half a billion dollars into a Weta Sweatshop of minimum wage animators I'd probably get something fancy-looking too, even if my initial idea sucked. Gushing about the vfx in the top-grossing blockbuster of the week might as well be complimenting the film's budget more than anything else.
The point about the visuals is so real. A good story can save bad visuals, but good visuals can't save a bad story, so it really has very little impact on the fact that the films' stories are bad, yknow?
As somebody who fell in love with Avatar as a kid and does still have a lot of passion for the franchise, this is *such* an educational and valuable video. It really gives a fair and genuine perspective on the biases and flaws behind its elements, and it makes me really want awareness and improvement from the franchise. Definitely from James Cameron himself. Thank you Mr. Gold!
I agree with you on the fact that is seems James Cameron wants to represent and stand with all indigenous people who are fighting and have fought but that ultimately he's off base and out of touch. I feel like it's a matter of him being bourgeois and also not having any real life experience with indigenous people. It seems his experience is more akin to him going to the zoo instead of actually going to see and talk with people. Maybe a little bit of him not wanting to step out of his comfort zone, like how he kept rejecting music that sounded too foreign.
That’s ironically a bit what the Pandora attraction in Disneys Animal Kingdom gives off, too. That part of the park looks awesomely crafted, but story wise it’s a bit…. yikes.
Loved how your framed this. It does feel like a visit to the zoo through the eyes of imperialism and patriarchy. It’s clear Cameron tries to give good representation to indigenous people but it somehow feels toxic and disingenuous.
If you want to see more projects from an Indigenous perspective, Canada has APTN, a broadcast network dedicated specifically to projects spearheaded by the Indigenous people of Canada. I used to watch "The Longhouse Tales" and "Inuk" on it.
avatar would be an incredible speculative biology docco if the na'vi were.... like, allowed to fit in on their own planet. they were obviously designed to be sexy and its not good for the film. where are their extra limbs? why do they breathe orally? why do they have hair in place of tentacles? its detrimental to include a sapient species thats so human on a planet with otherwise well done aliens. aliens should not look like an earth species especially when the other aliens are nothing like earthly life. when i watched it i found it difficult to watch because the na'vi are alien on an alien world, and its in a negative contrast with every other lifeform
another little nitpick from me was how the na'vi language didn't feel too "alien"; all of its features can be found in human language, as a consequence of how anthropomorphicized their anatomy is. from a filmmaking perspective (/my perspective) tho, the na'vis anthropomorphicism can be explained as Cameron wanting it to be easier for indigenuous people to relate to the na'vi because (on paper) its probably easier to relate to a blue-skinned cat-human rather than a six-limbed four-eyed creature with operculi on the sides of their necks instead of a nose, but ig even that has problems on its own (outside of the fact they don't fit with the rest of pandora's fauna).
@@DaryavahushTbf about the language part you can't just imagine a language out of the blue, fictional languages are always based on existing sounds because we can't do sounds that don't exist in humans
1. I imagine it wasn't just indigenous people that Cameron wanted the navi to relate to but just people in general because money. 2. Aliens in most media depictions are human looking with crap all over them for a reason it's just much easier and cheaper.
Except the other species on Pandora also clearly mirror animals on earth - wolves, horses, panthers, elephants, etc. The ikran are basically pterodactyls. 💁🏻♀️
The Na'vi were blue for fucks sake. They were also like 9 feet tall with tails and 4 digits on each limb. Also, the fact that you think they're being sexualized says a lot more about you than anything else. Do you sexualize indigenous people who to this day still wear little to no clothing? That sounds like your shit tbh. Also, if you haven't noticed, most aliens in most movies or books are some kind of humanoid being. It started as more of a practicality/relatability thing. It's easier and cheaper to put a person in a costume and call it a day. A lot of writers lean on anthropomorphized creatures so most people can relate to them easier. Also, considering how vast the universe is, it's not that ridiculous to think that there might be a species of bipedal human-like beings on another planet somewhere. I wouldn't recommend watching any Star Wars or Star Trek stuff if you feel this way. Probably not up your alley.
They also show some African influence which was pretty interesting. Native and African culture is so underrated not only that but full of thousands of different language from other tribes.
Honestly after playing Frontiers of Pandora, while it had its issues, it made me wish that the first movie was about a character more similar to the player character of that game because it would make so much more sense for a Na'vi in that situation to be the one to rise up, unite the clans, and take down the RDA than someone like Jake, though I also recognize that a story like that wouldnt have sold as well
interesting that he sees indigenous people in brazil fighting over a dam as fighting for their rights as if indigenous north americans dont literally do the exact same thing. the way i see this movie is why should i trust someone to make a movie about colonialism if they have shown to not understand colonialism. great video btw:)
When I heard of the movie for the first time, I actually wondered whether the Navi would become a spacefaring people - especially since some of them had a seafaring tradition and the humans had the archival knowledge and abandoned equipment to work with... There would have to be a major incentive toward that effort - e.g. some sort of cataclysm in the solar system, observed and analyzed by the humans or just the understanding that Earth would take revenge - but it would have been an opportunity to explore indigenous thought and culture, adapting to circumstances _in a unique way_ - instead of merely becoming 'Starfleet cadets'. Obviously such stories will have to be told by someone who had experiences beyond Kipling's British Empire.
The Na'vi are much older race then Humans, but they probably will never be a spacefaring race. They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone.
@@Taronyu_SVK "They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone." It's a valid point, but nothing that sensible writing can't handle - just as man follows different 'commands' at different circumstances: e.g. building an arch prior a deluge or exiting Egypt to escape bondage. The higher degree of organization would change the people, but that would make the story also more relatable and relevant - in comparison to the current state of the worldbuilding...
To be fair, just because a people have been exposed to new technology, doesn't mean they'd have any idea how it works, or even know how to start learning how it works. And even if they could understand it, it would take decades, if not centuries, to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain space travel. You can't just bootstrap an entire industrialized economy out of nowhere. Though this reminds me of another fictional Native American knockoff-people: the Tauren, from the Warcraft series. They're a race of minotaurs who wear all the trappings of Native stereotyping. But if you stop and think about their material conditions for a second, they don't really fit the usual narratives at all. Because they are Native Americans _who allied with the colonizers._ In Warcraft 3, the Orcs and Trolls of the Horde landed in Kalimdor, the Tauren's homeland, and established colonies. The Horde brought with it all kinds of new technology: guns and machinery, but also _agriculture._ And the Horde quickly allied with the Tauren, and shared their tech and resources with them in return for Tauren military manpower. In the present day, the Tauren are considered a foundational part of the Horde, with their people being present throughout Horde territory. Modern Tauren regularly make use of Horde technology, grow wealthy from labour and trade within Horde markets, and many Tauren identify with the Horde as a civic institution ahead of their traditional tribes. This is a _fascinating_ take on Native American history. What could have been, if the colonizers had been willing to compromise and bond with the locals, instead of crushing them. But the series doesn't take it far enough. Because modern Tauren have more in common with Japan during the Meiji Restoration, than Native Americans. They are a society that has experienced a staggering upheaval, in technology, culture and social organization, all within a single generation. There is so much potential to explore the culture shock of this moment in Tauren history, and how radically they might change from their roots (for better or worse). But it feels like Blizzard are afraid to do anything interesting with the Tauren, because so much of their character is built on Native American stereotypes. Doing anything with them runs the risk of being extremely problematic. Though given the quality of Blizzard's writing as of late, maybe it's better that they haven't tried after all.
@@tbotalpha8133 "You can't just bootstrap an entire industrialized economy out of nowhere." While I'm inclined to agree, You just mentioned two examples that contradict the statement: the adoption of the Spaniard horse by Native Americans and the modernization of Japan - the latter including unmanned space travel. Modernization Theory is a lie, but the history that You are looking for was present, indeed in *Stuart America* - when treaties were honored by proper Christians with honor - not Puritan zealots.
I actually just did a video on the “white savior complex” in the avatar franchise from a perspective of a black person. And also how it’s plot is almost exactly like Atlantis: The lost empire and also similar to Pocahontas. I didn’t go too in-depth because because I don’t come from an indigenous background so there’s obviously that cultural block there that I’m not going to speak on. I’ve been dying to get the perspective of someone from a native/indigenous background on this topic. And I must say u went above and beyond, I honestly think this type of dialog is sooo very important. I think avatar would have been so much better with indigenous people being involved in the writing. How are u going to use their stories and culture in a movie like this and not include them in the movies making. I feel like if he really cared as much as he claimed that’s something he should have done. Instead he chose to create his own narrative out of it. Its kind of frustrating seeing white people continually trying to tell nonwhite people stories and then put their own prospective spin on it. I wish things had been done differently because avatar could have been so much more powerful. U were able to speak on exactly what I had in my heart to say but didn’t feel like it was my place to, and even speak on points I wanted to make but couldn’t quite put into words. This has inspired me to speak on more pressing issues in media etc that need to be addressed. Ik this is long but this has been a very passionate topic for me lol So thank u for giving your perspective in such an informative way.
Avatar reminds me of the coffee table books of the 1950's, in particular the gorgeous photo books of Indians, over staged black and whites with eurocentric descriptions of these primitive people. Stuyvesant is the author of the book my mom still adores. It's a Dutch Colonialist trophy book.
Whoa. It’s not unlike that, you’re right. I’m reminded of the Time World Cookbook that *didn’t* have someone from that country writing it. It sort of exoticizes it in an excessive manner.
As an indigenous Maori, they did extremely well representing our people. Many of the words, stories, actions, beliefs and looks were largely accurate, as a country in the south pacific who doesn't get a lot of representation on the world stage and isn't acknowledged often by the pakeha (non maori new zealanders) populace, I was so happy to see my culture respected in a blockbuster. I can't speak for maori in general but i know a lot of us who are happy with our portrayal. I think we might be getting more justice to our people because avatar is filmed here so there is most likely going to be more influence from our people on our portrayal. ps jermaine clement, the whaler scientist guy is maori too lol
Although ironically it seems the world outside New Zealand sees more Maori representation than Pakeha, probably since Maori culture is distinct enough from Anglospheric culture as to be worth mentioning separately.
I am a descendant from the Cora Nation, Nayarit, Mexico. When I was teaching anthropology at university, I used to tell my students that "District 9" was a far more realistic science-fiction take than "Avatar" on what colonialism actually does to indigenous communities. I even offered an extra credit assignment for students to watch D9 and compare it with course lessons.
I'm a big fan of the Avatar movies, but I really agree with the points you're making. I think the movies were great, but could have been so much better, if they only only had to be good movies. It's sad but James Cameron isn't just a filmmaker - he's a moneymaker first. He's making blockbusters and those just need to reach the audience that will make money, so many things like an original score had to be sterilized to sound more Hollywood like, to sound like what the western audience already knows and what appeals to it. Cameron raises important topics in his movies and his stand often is against the status quo, but they just don't cross the line of making people uncomfortable. I'm a white person living in a pretty much all white country, so I watched Avatar 2 in a full packed all white theatre. During the scene when the reef people are doing a pukana, some people literally laughed aloud. It's just the sad reality of people feeling uncomfortable with even little things that aren't what they're used to. If those movies weren't so whitewashed, they would be better, more interesting. But would they reach the financial success they did? Probably not. Would they resonate with as many people, would more people listen? Also, probably not. There's so much more to come in the future and people are getting more informed, I for sure did since the first movie. Still a long way to go though. Thanks for the video, enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts.
Ponca/Oklahoma When the 1st film came out my brother asked me doesn't it make you proud to be native and I didn't say this to him all at the time but I thought "No it makes me feel like they rip us off and then pay no mind to actual history" They rather make movies about blue space aliens then movies on history about the real red man What do we got as Natives, Last of the Mohicans and Dances with Wolves? Those aren't too accurate, although beautiful, I Love Last of the Mohicans even though they're still alive ha I'm just saying I think we deserve better representation than blue space aliens P.S. Shout out for Wes Studi best native actor alive [Native Cry!!]
I had a similar experience when I went to see the first film with my family. My mom really enjoyed it and I had fun with it as a kid. But over the years I have really soured on this whole franchise as I've learned more about our own people's history especially when it comes to how we've been depicted in Hollywood. Things have gotten so much better with films like Prey 2022 and shows like Reservation Dogs. So I don't understand why inspite of all the progress we've made, we still have mediocre representation like this. I just hope James Cameron actually takes all of the feedback from the Native community to heart.
Of course, but remember this is a mash up with reality x fantasy. I loved seeing my people represented in such a beautiful fantasy way. A lot of animes are inspired by real life events. People say its bad representation, but I think its the opposite. They're depicting some aspects of my people into a fantasy mash up. Obviously, it's not going to be exactly like what happened to my ancestors, but it depicts it in a digestible way. Technically, yes, James C is profiting off of our culture and what happened to our ancestors, but unfortunately, in this world that's how it will be when showing anyones cultures. People also say it has white saviourism, which it is not. If you think it is, then you need to rewatch or get a new brain. Jake is an ally. He's helping and fighting along side them. Ultimately, he does not save the people. Their god, Eywa, saves them and the people save themselves. People are clearly blind if they think Jake saved everyone by himself like a superhero. He just helped. I do not like the comments that James C has said about Native Americans, but we can separate a culturally beautiful film from the person who made it.
@@bellal320 I'm glad you were able to enjoy it. But I've seen other fantasy x indigenous stories with better representation like Maya and the Three on Netflix or Rebecca Roanhorse's Between Earth and Sky novel series (although Roanhorse's history as an indigenous author is contentious in the Native community). If you can recommend any properties that mash up Native culture and fantasy, I'd like to hear them.
@@arturopineda1997 What's wrong with the representation in Avatar?? I thought it was cool that they mixed african x maori x native american into a specific fantasy universe. I wonder what the next tribe will be based off. I think that all Indigenous people can agree that they all had similar experiences with colonization. They took many historical experiences from the past and applied it to the film. Maya and three was amazing too, but it was also a different storyline...
Glad I stumbled onto this video. As a screenwriter, I created a rather taut, smart monster movie about a living Dinosaur in our modern age. The Protagonist was basically Muldoon from Jurassic Park. After years of on-and-off development, as I became increasingly interested in Aztec Mythology, I incorporated a lot of that research to enhance the world and make it stand out. After a while the protagonist became an Indigenous Nahuatl/Mexica Indiana Jones-type. In making those changes, I came to the difficult realization that I couldn't make it as authentic as it should be. So I commissioned a rewrite by a Mexican American screenwriter. It's currently being pitched to a major Mexican Producer/Director.
i’m realizing that’s probably why i liked the movie so much: it was made to be digested by me but in the process, it was depriving the audience of the true substance of indigenous experiences and culture. what a waste of an interesting scifi concept 22:04
I am so so so glad you brought up Sideways. He is one of my all time favorites, and his analysis of the score does really underscore the whole plot. Not in a self aware kind of way, but in an accidental ignorant kind of way.
I'm happy I made my way here because _it's good to hear from a creator's perspective for whom IS indigenous,_ (I'm only 1/64th and best I got is a Muskoke dictionary from my grandmother and a little history I've read up on) it's really cool and saddening to hear tidbits of history from, like, EmpLemon here and there, but _really_ getting ground zero views on media I always kinda knew was tied to that western idea of indigenous tribes from someone today actually native is awesome.
making a note 2:07, could just be a weird coincidence but yeah, I got that same kinda "hell yeah" from the Na'vi fighting back with less advanced but just as viable tools and animals as I did seeing the (as of writing) recent New Zealand Maori _Haka_ war cry from elected officials against British laws to discriminate against them.
My biggest issue, mostly with the second movie but also solidly with the first, was the fact that the Navi won despite all logic. There is no way a landbound tribal people could ever resist a spaceborn empire. All the humans have to do is park a ship in orbit, and dump a few million tons of gas down until all life is subdued; they could even combine this with a terraforming effort by dumping pure oxygen down, as the planet's atmosphere is toxic to earth life. The hoplessness of fighting against an unstoppable and intractable force of conquest has its romance too it, but winning that fight only works when it makes sense which this doesn't. When one side has giant robots and space ships and the other has bows and horses, the result is a forgone conclusion in any sane mind. It's kind of a backhanded insult to real natives, showing this far more hopeless fight and saying "Oh, if you just fought harder you'd be free like these guys!" Like, no, the natives fought hard as nails and still lost, if they had been fighting robots they might not have even tried to fight such a hopeless battle. Then, the second movie went and completely flubbernucked the moral by making the evil empire actually a force desperately struggling against the extinction of the human race, making their cruelty suddenly a sign of desperation to save their species rather than just greed driven malice. This totally throws the whole equation out of wack, turning it from a greedy colonialist empire trying to conquer these innocent tribes just trying to live, into a race of (incredibly foolish) refugees trying to integrate and resorting to violence when their initial peaceful overtures are rejected and their entire species is put at risk. Suddenly the Navi aren't underdogs resisting malevolent invaders, they're sneering landlords watching innocents fleeing disaster starve to death on their doorstep and getting indignant when the hungry foreigners don't just lay down and quietly die somewhere out of sight. This weird twist turned the story from a pretty simple good natives vs bad colonizers caricature of history, to a way more compex tale of two very questionable groups fighting over resources both of them need to survive. They could share, they could both live and even benefit from eachother's culture and science, but greed and malice on both sides drives them to conflict. If that moral ambiguity was intentional I might even praise it, but considering how heavy handedly anti-human the movies otherwise are, I can't help but think this was an unintentional twist.
Now I'm curious for what Cameron will do with this plot of "Earth" is dying. Will he really kill ALL of humanity, even the innocent ones, the ones who did not even know that Pandora exists, just to save the natives, while there's technology and resources for both species flourish?
James cameron has dismissed the resistance of North American Indigenous people, because it doesn't look like the romanticized version of resistance that movies feed us.
He really, really could’ve just made Sully *any* kind of Indigenous man and that first movie would’ve gone over much better. No clue if the second is salvageable, didn’t see it.
I think having the Main Character be indigenous back on earth and reconnecting with his roots while helping the Na'Vi would've been way more interesting.
Awesome video again, thanks! You are able to break down very comfortably the indigenous point of view. It really helps me to understand more about the struggle Sámi people have gone and are going through this very day here in Finland. Members of parliament here representing white land and business owners blocked a couple of weeks ago a legislative initiative to give Sámi parliament more power to administrate their own affairs and the land we, the white people, have taken (excactly the same way how it happened there across the Atlantic, btw). Because the law did't pass Finnish adminstration still decides who is indigenous and who is not. The Sámi parliament has no say in that. Also they have no say in mining, wind farming or forestry happening on their reindeer breeding areas. The situation with the Sámi people is ghastly similar that indigenous people in th US. It makes me think that us Europeans are all the same - evil oppressors. :( Sámi people are the only indigenous people in the EU and they live in northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. They are nomadic people living off the land and herding reindeer but us westerners have put too many borders on their land and forced them to live in areas that aren't always suitable for them. Not really that different from reservations. If you ever have the time I wish you'd watch and maybe even react to film Sami Blood from a native American perspective. It is written and directed by half Swedish half Sámi screenwriter/direcor Amanda Kernell. It's in South Sámi language (and a bit in Swedish too). I think it's the only film ever made in southern Sámi language. The film gives very accurate depiction of the realities of 1930's Sámi people across the northern Europe. www.imdb.com/title/tt5287168/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Where did the Finns come from? they came from India, South America, wow, this makes me think that Europeans emerged from the rocks, at some point, why even Europe they invaded.
Disclaimer that I'm a white European (Danish), but... for what it's worth, I watched Avatar when I was 11. Shortly thereafter I got a school assignment to write a fictional story about the first white settlers in North America, and I wrote an appropriately violent story about colonizers who got defeated by the natives 😅 Avatar is massively flawed, but it'll always have a special place in my heart for planting those first seeds of anti-colonialism (something I'm still working on distangling all these years later, what with my country's colonization of Kalaallit Nunaat, and the way we benefit from other countries' colonial power, just by virtue of being Northern European)
Thanks Native Media Theory! Always love your representation! For your input, it's incredibly important, as an Asian American Artist who studies photography and film and as a person who love Avatar; this is an awesome perspective. I totally understand this, definitely gave me more insight on this unseen issue. GOING FOWARD, I think: - James and his crew need to watch what they say. Though we can understand the purpose and intent, there can be misunderstandings and misinformation. So they need to be clear - Seriously need to involve more Indigenous/Native Representation Behind/On the screens; especially if the foundation of the Na'vi is what is is based or inspired from. Agree with you on how it doesn't go full circle with where James is coming from. All of that would really help and reinforce the intent and representation of this film. If they took or could take the approach of Prey, that would be definitely the way to go!
I don´t know if you have read it but there is a mexican book called " Huesos de lagartija" meaning " Lizard bone". Its a fiction story about the spanish conquest of the aztec empire but told from the point of view of two aztec brothers. Its very touching and I always hope that somebody makes a movie about this book because its a sad story but with a strong message.
Avatar follows a lot of trends where I think people intellectually know that colonisation is bad and the people love the underdog resistance narrative, but we still struggle to place ourselves on the bad side of history or reckon with the fact that it's an ongoing issue that still needs to be addressed. The film paints the military colonists as evil, but the main character can't be. In fact, the main character is the saviour of these aliens! He is needed and superior, and the aliens think he's super cool and sexy. The strawman of colonisation is obviously the bad guy, but the real life ignorance and impact of colonisation goes completely unaddressed because that's where the audience might find themselves uncomfortable
Excellent analysis! I always enjoy your take on Indigenous culture in movies and television. I saw the first Avatar and enjoyed it. I haven't seen this one, but might eventually. The Indigenous metaphor was obvious to me in the first film, but I suppose that due to my White bias I completely missed the "White Savior" trope. Thank you for enlightening me! In fact, not only is it obvious to me now in Avatar, but I see it in the Tarzan stories, which I absolutely loved as a kid. Anyhow, please keep up the excellent work and I'm looking forward to your next video.
I do not think Jake Sully is a white savior either. It was very disappointing to see that films that do have the white savior characters and films that created the trope in the first place, influenced Avatar by Cameron's own words. So clearly there are problems with how Cameron in treating the Avatar films when he doesn't get indigenous people onto these projects.
@@angeliparraguirre7329 Very true!! But in this world... nothing is fair:(( I do wish they casted more Natives, African, and Maori people. I guess we cant have our cake and eat it in this world when it comes to actor representation.
This is a great video and overview! I hadn't heard anything about Cameron's uh... indigenous 'activism' ... so that was some great historical context for me to understand his current work. I really liked how you broke down the various perspectives from indigenous communities and didn't frame it as a monolithic 'take'. Big props for such a nuanced and educational analysis! Also, your voice is also very soothing to listen to.
Wasn't gonna immediately subscribe to you (was gonna watch a few more videos first) but fucking thank you for understanding that media literacy is actually on the rise. You see, fandom people tend to fearmonger about a "lack of media literacy" (aka they saw some kid have a bad take, or even just have a developmentally typical reaction to the concept of sex). But like, my Gen X Mom thinks the moral of The Little Mermaid is about listening to your parents so it's definitely not a generational thing. It's a very petty reason to subscribe but still. The rest of the video is very thoughtful and I'm glad I could watch it.
Loving your intro. I think your fair-minded and generous attitude helps people be open to reconsidering our own judgment of things we like. I specifically was curious to find an indigenous review of the film, and yours is filling an importing part of my perspective on it. Thanks :)
True. He points out that a lot of indigenous people do enjoy the film and says that's fine. A lot of indigenous people also critique the film and there is a lot to discuss. I think you can both enjoy the film and share criticism. Especially when it's critiquing choices of James Cameron who is in charge of the film.
I think people assuming they can't enjoy a peice of media anymore because it has problematic elements is anyoning. The point isn't to say you can't enjoy something anymore, the point is to be aware of the elements so you don't consume them uncritically.
People can do what ever they want. If someone doesn’t like that something is offensive to them then they are allowed to not support it. Why do people act like being offended by a piece of media is bad?
As much as I like the Avatar series, I feel like Cameron’s approach felt overly simplistic. Even Disney’s Pocahontas, despite its historical inaccuracy, added some nuance to the topic. There’s an interesting video by pilgrim pass that compares the film to Miyazaki’s princess Mononoke, which, in the channel’s opinion, approached the topic in a more nuanced way. I’d highly recommend it. On a different note, I’m writing an urban fantasy series about Druids and the main character happens to be Native American (Choctaw to be specific). I want to avoid some of the mistakes that Cameron did writing and avoid stereotypes about indigenous peoples. (Such as the Noble savage) Do you have any advice regarding how to approach it?
@@nativemediatheory*Not only that, but I also liked the fact that you mentioned the genre, Poverty Porn. It’s been very problematic, for example you said that the good that Indigenous ppls do doesn’t linger on as much. However, not only that, but It makes the good done feel unrealistic, fake. Like you said, that genre Is VERY oversatured…👏🏽💯*
Avatar will be nuanced too, in the sequels. I saw that video, and it was not good. And I'm tired of this nuance argument. Like, do you people know that evil exist? Pure evil? Go to Ukraine and tell them that Russians are also good. Good luck. Some people, just want to see the world burn. Period.
@@Taronyu_SVK except the war in ukraine is not a simple good vs evil conflict Both russia, Ukraine and the west had both very good and bad intentions and the right and wronh reasons to murder at each other There is no side that is pure good nor pure evil in that war It has nuanced and complexities which all wars have unlike avatar So, a poor choice of a real life conflict to prove your point. People just want to burn the world for very deep and complex reasons as well, even evil still has a cause
@@kungalexander829 Not simple? Haha. Russia is a clear aggressor, and Ukraine is a clear victim. There is no but. West has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand this conflict, do not comment on it.
Great diagnosis - thank you for breaking it down. I did enjoy the movie, but bottom line - the true people of whom the story purports to be about (or are based upon) should be an integral part of the whole process. Representation COUNTS!!!
Clearly an American yt dude (Cameron) can't even assimilate all the historic and geographic elements that make the culture of these two indigenous peoples so different. They both face a massive genocide until this day, but all the historical events were different, so their answers in form of resistance should never be compared to another in that way. And as a sad note: Belo Monte Dam was built anyway, erasing in an arbitrary and tragic way everything sacred that connected that people to its land.
I absolutely hate when people travel to a real place and say "oh it's just like blank fictional reality". Like, James, the people aren't ""like"" the Navi, you made the Navi based on indigenous people and then went back and compared them to your made up world.
I have always been interested to hear indigenous perspectives on this film and franchise! Please keep creating! your perspective is incredibly eye opening and I really really appreciate you and your opinions.
My tribe built the pandemic protocol for the town we are in. We give to the community,as well as taking care of our elderly,and young. We have a doctor,and dentist, also we have lawyers to help legal stuff, (helped me a couple of times) we have summer camp trips for kids. The tribe gives it's extra income from the business it owns to he tribe. We are buying back land that was taken. Not all ribs are successful like mine, but we as a people still rise. And we give shit and take shit from other rezs, but we are all family.
I wish there were more Na'vi stuff involved in the movie because something about the Na'vi lore clicked with me and it always lingered in the back of my mind as far back as 2011. I didn't care about the human stuff, just Na'vi stuff to this day. Cameron had good intentions but fell flat halfway to the finish line. Even with the sequel, I feel like the issues still remained.
Thank you so much for all your hard work, thought and care you put into this video. Your voice is deeply appreciated. Put me down for 1 "I'm still not going to watch this particular piece of empty propaganda but I'm hoping the kids will learn something powerfully real from this" ticket, please .
To the point of sexualization, if the female Na'vi are sexualised then the males are too. Both gender are very attractive. I mean the male Na'vi have tiny waists and very broad shoulders. additional to that they wear something corset-like to emphasize it even more. So it's equal.
Great video. In some ways, it’s changed my mind. On the whole, it’s helped me focus on what the film actually is and what it isn’t. I don’t think the films were meant to represent or advocate for indigenous people. Do any Hollywood films do that? That being said it doesn’t change the fact that it could have. It doesn’t address the appetite for wanting to see more authentic representation. Avatar contains the zest of multiple indigenous cultures. Cameron's vision includes details that are subtly familiar as opposed to authentic. Despite its potential, it was made for the modern mass market. The only thing that sets it apart is its success. James Cameron does what comes naturally to him. This is telling compelling stories that affect hearts and minds. He can only authentically do this in his own way. I’m confident one day new Directors and creatives will do what James couldn't. It's just going to take time.
I think the thing that muddies the water with Avatar is that it isn't really FOR the indigenous or those already deeply involved and educated on the culture and concerns. It's staring right in the face from the start, the message of Avatar is for "white" people to abandon their perceived alignment to empire, to find humanity in anti-imperialism. That can be frustrating, and might seem to be akin to the "white savior" films of old, but the message really is that there can be no "going back" or "retiring in the frontier" afterwards, which is what I think differentiates them from "white savior" films. Cameron isn't making this for the Doctor Grace Augustine's, the Stanford shirt wearing sociologists who think they know the path to peace, or even for the Eytukan who know all the ways that the depiction in the films use the visual language of exoticism for the Na'vi and that there should be more authentic people telling their experiences as part of the actual tribes and nations. These movies are made for the jarheads, for the Jake Sullys, those who have resentment and reason to hate the empire, have the numbers and political force to enact change, but don't have the direction to guide them. That's why the soundtrack is made for the "western" ear, that's why an empty husk of a protagonist is the lead, that's why the message is defect and dismantle. I think when Cameron says "they should have fought harder", he's not really talking about the people of the First Nations, he's talking about all of the common folk in the empire who should have fought alongside them.
That makes a lot of sense, I think you're right. And it makes those comments about 'fighting harder' far less disgusting. I think we forget how clueless a lot of white westerners are. I had a friend who wouldnt even watch Pocahontas when we were young, because she couldn't relate to the darker skinned people wearing native clothing. I was open minded of course, but it was still my first exposure to Native Americans (Im british not american). I think those gateway films are valuable in their own way.
_Avatar_ suddenly made sense to me when someone pointed out that it's what nature looks like through the eyes of a rich white man. Realistically if something were growing out of our heads that connected directly to our brains, there would be an entire ecosystem of viruses and parasites that could take advantage of that.
Like your eyes? Or ears? Or nose? Or mouth? I genuinely do not get the point. There is a lot to be criticized with this movies, but I dont think thay part of Navi anatomy is
This was a super great educational piece for me. I’ve been thinking about that Apache comment Cameron made for a couple years now and getting an indigenous perspective is invaluable 🙌🏻 thanks so much for your graciousness and your nuanced approach!!
After watching the first one, i thouht it was a shallow mix of Nausica of the valley of the wind, Dances with wolwes and little bit of Matrix.dww's plot, Nausica's poison atmosphere, giant trees, giant armored animals with multiple eyes and telepathic yellow tentacles, When it comes to Matrix, the link aspect was pretty similar, same goes for the work/combat suits.
I admire Cameron for what he is trying to do for the enviorment, and the dedication he has to filmmaking. Both Avatar movies are beautiful (to look at), but it left a sour taste in my mouth when Jake is the "savior". I also think he sees himself somewhat of a "savior" instead of a supporter. It's such a shame that he doesn't include indigenous people in the writer's room, and that they aren't very well represented in the production. I hope, like you said, that he learns from this and takes the critisim to heart and actually tries to do better for the making of the fourth movie. I really like the way you break these things down and analyze it. I watched your review on the first season of Reservation Dogs, I thought it was great! It got me wondering if you've watched Trickster and if you'd consider doing a video on it and the controversy?
Thanks for the thorough view into your thoughts. I've long been aware of the flaws of Avatar, but I haven't fully understood. This video helps. I love those movies for the visuals, acting, characters and themes (respect for mother nature, for example), I can heavily relate to Kiri being different and getting lost within her own mind, but I can also acknowledge the issues of the story and behind the scenes. I appreciate your calmness, you're not making personal jabs at Cameron, like a lot of internet critics do. I do believe the man is trying, and like any human, he makes mistakes. What's important is that he does advocate for the native people, and brings awareness, even if it may be slightly ignorant. It's a start, and people in future generations can be introduced and learn even more, and do better. That's my hope.
Hi! This is the first video of yours I've seen: I like how you're knowledgeable without presenting yourself as infallible. I value humility and intellectual rigour together. It's really engaging :) Come for the Indigenous voice, stay for the piercing analysis.
I feel like you do a great job going deep without getting repetitive- every line is important and i love your commentary on this thanks for sharing and creating! 🙏❤
I’d love to see a video on an Indigenous person’s take on Avatar and what they would change or rewrite it and see how different they would be and if the films would be even more enjoyable.
as someone who is not indigenous ever since i developed critical thinking skills blue avatar has seemed like the white man's version of what they think indigenous people are like. the way james cameron talks about these movies just increases that feeling. at every step the creative team came up with legitimately creative and interesting choices but they all ended up being flattened to not alienate white americans at the box office. they are visually beautiful movies but they just don't have anything to say. at most they are saying that colonialism is bad and i'm glad james cameron is on the right page about that but i feel like we as a society need to move past "colonialism is bad" and james cameron is simply not the right person to lead that conversation.
This is a great video and im glad i found it! I did not realize James Cameron said all that but i hadnt been looking for it. Someone might have already mentioned this but one thing that struck me was Cameron saying "they should have fought harder" yet the first movie (only one ive seen) shows the Navi winning because a goddess intervened. So does that mean he also believes there was/is nothing Natives fighting could have done even if they did "fight harder?"
Good to see you again brother. Well said, i think the same on this topic that's why i'm not at all interested in this kind of films there is just not enough indigenous input. Can't wait to see what you are working on, I would definitely be interested in a film or book coming from you. ✌🏾
This video deserves more recognition! You discuss the most important aspects of this discourse with clear and concise points. Come on TH-cam Algorithm, pick it up!
I find Avatar refreshingly diffrent. An alien more "savage" living like world invaded by humans with high technology advantage. Because usually it's quite the other way around (Earth getting invaded by high tech aliens)
I honestly don't think the indigenous representation was more than an afterthought. Which is frustrating. James Sully as the protagonist is as much the everyman as a character can be, and that decision feels quite deliberate in comparison. This movie seems much more like an emotional appeal to said everyman, and I think that's the part these movies excel at. Introducing nature with one layer of obfuscation, as to not immediately recall the problems our ecosystems face as a gradual process, slowly but with certainty being polluted. That gradual change is replaced by a sharp knife where what we just learned to appreciate is destroyed in front of our eyes, causing at least me the anger environmental destruction deserves. It seems to me like that's the movie's primary goal, to make that connection and Indigenous cultures are more windowdressing than anything. It's frustrating. Looking a bit into the language Na'vi has been fascinating. I'm not sure how mch influence from real Indigenous languages has found it's way in there, but it does show differences in thought, that are difficult to translate into a movie. The way the music was handled is an utter travesty, but again: I can sadly see how it clashed with the mission to have the everyman immerse themselves enough to be emotionally captured. And I think the movies do convey that one point pretty well. It's personal to Cameron due to his environmentalism and HIS understanding and HIS vision of how empathy with nature might be a motivator. The 2nd movie does include the common perspective of white families: Sure, this is all bad, but if I can protect my nuclear family everything is fine, but no, Climate Change and environmental destruction will come home to roost eventually. I'm glad some indigenous people saw and see themselves in the portrayal of the Na'vi, but I can more than understand people being pissed about it.
If you haven't read it already, the meticulously sourced and well-written Wikipedia entry on Ursula K. LeGuin's novella "The Word for World is Forest" and the "Avatar" story's similarities to it may be of interest. When I first learned of the plot of the first Avatar film, LeGuin's work was the first thing I thought of. She wrote it back in the 1970s.
I didn't really think of it as Dances with Wolves when I saw the first movie. What struck me was that it was almost a beat-for-beat re-telling of Dune with a glow in the dark forest and organic USB ports.
@@chrisbarnett5303it does have a lot of aspects of John Carter of Mars. Herbert even considered setting the firet book on Mars before deciding to start fresh with Arrakis
Cameron *could* have made Jake fall head over heels for a completely strange, unfamiliar alien being if he wasn't a *coward.*
Imagine the love scene if they were a pair of isopod or cuttlefish like creatures. 11/10
Would’ve been the best movie fr
I don't even think that many changes would be needed to make the Na'vi feel more alien. Just some changes to make them feel more in line with the rest of the species on their planet. Second set of eyes (maybe near the temples of the skull) and the 2 sets of arms (if they felt the need to keep the silhouette the same, just have them held against each other when not in use) and they'd feel much more at home with the rest of the fauna on Pandora. (Personally maybe some sort of folding canine tooth analog but can take or leave that.)
They absolutely could have gone so much further given they had Wayne Barlowe on the design team, just looking at his personal alien designs in Expedition/Alien Planet, and I'd absolutely love to see a big movie with that tier of design involved in more than just the monster roles
@@dilo19000 Could've also given them the non-nose breathing holes, next to the collarbone.
He just wanted blue cat-girls. The rest he let artists do their thing.
I feel like once you know some of the behind the scenes of avatar it becomes more insidious. They cut songs, and entire fictional instrument, and more, all because it felt “too alien and un familiar” to producers. Which has got to be the most obvious parallel to forced assimilation and how native culture was looked down on and erased simply for being “different.”
It's also a logical decision when you're aiming to make one of the biggest grossing (so, universally appealing) films of all time. A shame to be sure, but more like what you'd expect than insidious.
Was the instrument removed specifically from an indigenous culture? The design process of the film involved basically world building an entire alien ecology from scratch, with hundreds of unique alien flora and fauna, work which would have necessitated many such cases of things being cut or iterated upon until they fit the vision for the world. It's interesting to think of what other worlds this scale of effort could portray for sure though.
@@tequilasunset4651I think it was a completely original instrument based on how the na’vi only have 4 fingers
@@tequilasunset4651 something can both be what you expect and insidious.
imaginee that, Cameron wanted music that was emotionally engaging to mass audiences, not just something weird or out there for its own sake
I always felt weird about the core concept of the movie, the avatar bodies. The movie treats it as pure novelty because that's what it is to Jake, but from the perspective of the Na'vi, wouldn't it be kind of ghoulish? I really can't get over that underlying horror. It could be a very interesting plot element in a story about aliens, but avatar isn't a story about aliens really. Idk, it's not a complete thought, just a feeling the movie gives me. I really hope to see more indigenous voices in filmmaking in the future
I agree, they barely touch upon that despite the Na’vi being clearly aware of the bodies and genuinely dislike them to a point. As seen when Sully firsts meets the tribe and then in the second when they say his kids have demon blood. It’s extremely glossed over tho, which just adds to disappointment for what these movies could’ve been.
That's true, when I first saw the Na'viI thought they looked really weird until I saw the people behind them
They could’ve leaned into that. A sci-fi analogy for ethnicity stigmatizing that happens across the entire world
To them it would be extremely uncanny.
Imagine a race entirely alien to you with technology you can't even conceive of wears the skin of your people, they have an extra finger, and a facial structure that just doesn't look quite right. So disturbing to think about, I also wish it could have been a subject that got more attention.
Na'Vi women designed to be sexually appealing to humans reminds of that fantasy and scifi meme. You know the one, where there's like a giant inhuman insect man with pincers and a scorpion tail, but for some reason the female of the same species looks like a pretty human girl except with compound eyes.
To their credit, Na'Vi men also have the thin waist and slender build, so not quite as egregious, at least.
I always hated that troupe so damn much like it's not even sexual dimorphism because if it was it'd look much different...
@@MatthewMiller-f9q I dunno what either of you are talking about, the Na'vi men and women both looked like olympic athletes, even the elderly.
The trope is called sexual dimorphism
@@komickid833 Well, if you're doing anything short of satire, sexual dimorphism should still be sensible in some way, and it's just strange if it's much more more anthropomorphic.
You can actually go some interesting extremes with it, such as those species where one of the two sexes is a tiny sack that has no real life besides attaching to the other sex.
@komickid833 Well it's a ridiculous and very convenient form of sexual dimorphism then...
THE TREES COULD HAVE BEEN PURPLE. The trees could have been purple. There are footprints all over the franchise of an initial intent to push the uniqueness of it but every single time they’re walked back and scrubbed over to make it more ‘palatable’ and ‘familiar’ it’s so soulcrushing. I still kind of like the films, there are good elements in them still, but it hurts that I could have loved them so much moreeee
You are so right. The trees definitely could have and should have been purple. Would've been way cooler. I'm glad he mentioned the Sideways video because Avatar's fantastical A L I E N score that the consultants spent months on is my roman empire. Like we could've had something really different and cool but instead Cameron rejected it and said "gimme a Na'Vi 'Amazing Grace'" and we all missed out on something potentially interesting in favor of boring samey bs. But it made a fton of money so there's that I guess /s.
You’re telling me the (literal) world building I loved so much could’ve been better??
I love Pandora, I love the bio-illumination thats depicted at night, its by far my favorite and is 1000% where my love for glow-in-the-dark things comes from.
this is me with the music. theres a great video on here about how the avatar team hired a bunch of ethnomusicologists to come up with an entirely unique and alien sounding musical philosophy (at least to the western ear) and then they ended up scrapping all that work for some simple orchestral with some singing and drums bc cameron found it *too different* aruughhh makes me wanna rip my hair out that we'll never hear any of this wonderful work such talented ppl put so much time into [edit: ah lol they mentioned it in the video]
I would’ve loved that, too.
But it’s clear it’s to humanize(lol I know) them. Ppl are more sad about trees dying than coral reefs dying, due to closer connection with them.
It also helps color contrast, too •3•
Too many cool colours; purple trees don't contrast very well with the Na'vi and wildlife appearance they chose.
(they don't contrast that well with literally anything other than whites and pastels actually, from experience! Cranberry hibiscus are not quite purple, but they give a very similar effect and while they're beautiful, they are not cinematically striking against any dark natural background.)
I like the hypocrisy of Jake completely abandoning his race for a new tribe and then completely abandoning that tribe for a new cooler tribe.
He claims that it's for his family and tribe's safety but I'm pretty sure humans are still attacking his forest tribe anyway and he could've avoided endangering tribes previously living in peace if he didn't do that.
That part was hilarious. There's so much in the first about how horrible it is they're being forced out of their ancestral home and how awful that was, yet in this one it really didn't take much of the runtime before Jake was like "So long, good luck with the humans who don't know where I am, hope they don't torture you to find out!"
@@jujublue4426 They're not. Or at least it wouldn't make sense for the humans to attack the clan. Remember that the RDA's main obstacle is Jake as he is the one disrupting their supply routes, slowing down their progress.
Miles Quaritch was sent to hunt Jake down and if he and his team found Jake amongst the forest Na'vi, the fighting would put them in harm's way.
Since Spider was captured and knows the whereabouts of the clan, Jake and his family had to leave.
The logic is that Jake not being there would lessen the danger to the forest Na'vi. Jake has gone into hiding with the sea Na'vi and it seemed to work pretty well for a couple months until they had to send for Norm and Max when the whole Kiri seizure thing happened.
The humans are not specifically targeting Na'vi. They're just mining the resources of Pandora and only kill Na'vi if they get in the way.
Therefore, if Jake is no longer disrupting the supply routes, then the humans have no reason to go after the Na'vi.
@@jujublue4426 I think my reply got deleted but why would the humans still be attacking the forest Na'vi after Jake left? Unless the forest Na'vi are still disrupting their progress, It doesn't make sense.
The humans are not specifically targeting the Na'vi, they are mining Pandora's resources and only kill Na'vi if they get in the way.
Since Jake is the main obstacle as he disrupted their supply routes, the RDA sent Quaritch after Jake, not the Na'vi.
If Jake is found amongst the forest Na'vi, the fighting could put them in harm's way.
And since Spider was captured, he knows their whereabouts.
Therefore, Jake and his family had to leave to protect his family and the people. He went into hiding amongst the reef Na'vi and it worked until they had to call Max and Norm after the whole Kiri seizure situation.
So it's really not hypocrisy. It's logic.
@@idontknowwhattocallmyself912because they wouldn’t know where Jake is until after they couldn’t find him in the forest. It was literally a play for time.
I always felt that the idea of colonizers very literally inhabiting the bodies of those they're colonizing was an underutilized concept, thematically speaking. Especially when a human in the body of an alien would suddenly be subject to very different senses, how would that change how you interact with the world?
And would it also not be kind of horrifying to the na'vi to see a person possessed by an alien? There could also be something there with how many modern indigenous people are also descendants of colonizers, and how that parallels with a protagonist who has the body of an alien but the mind of a human.
But I'm not really equipped to work that one out, lol. I just really wish the film had more to say.
I felt like Get Out is an example of that kind of body snatching horror that I thought was well done.
And then they have the main native lady lay down and have a baby with this freak. stupendous.
"many modern indigenous people are also descendants of colonizers,this is mixed people, right?
Someone should watch Get out.
they also had their avatar bodies looking half human in the face, in their eye and nose shape especially.
Oh gosh, at 7:54 when James Cameron says that being with those indigenous people of brasil was like living in avatar and then the sudden cut to a scene jn the movie where you can see how he interpreted what he saw and unintentionally made a parody of it SOOOOO UNCOMFORTABLE 😭😭😭
I agree
I'm from Brazil, that's so weird to read.....
You mentioned that having more indigenous people in the writer's room and as producers would be complicated and involved. This is part of what gets me; it's been 13 years! There was plenty of time to reconsider their approach.
They put so much effort into breathing life into their world through VFX and other artists, who did an incredible job don't get me wrong. Still, they didn't seem to give 1% of that effort into giving life to indigenous stories and experiences that the films are supposed to revolve around.
*indigenous people from different backgrounds
Where can they find people indigenous to Pandora? A fictional planet? All humans are indigenous to some place in this planet. No matter your ethnic background, you have just as much to say about alien lifeforms that are fictional...
@0ooTheMAXXoo0 come on now. You are being wilfully ignorant here.
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0aye there bud idk, you sound highkey slow 🤷🏽♂️
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0willfully ignorant or just dumb 🤷🏽
I think what might have been interesting is if Scully had been indigenous-American and having an internal conflict about his ancestors had gone through and survived, what his relationship with that is and how it has shaped him, and paralleling that more directly with what the Na’vi are going through and seeing how that could change his character or better understand his ancestors and current experiences, and that might have sold me more on Scully and netiri’s relationship because they would have found some common ground I think even if his character still had work past being complicit in the current occupation. Just a thought experiment.
Yes, I think that would've been very interested to see.
Omg that would have been so interesting! It would have been so much better than him being just another white dude 🙄 soo many wasted opportunities with the Avatar movies. Let's hope they learn in time for the inevitable third one.
But instead we get him just wanting cheeks
No that’s would suck, the whole point of sully is that he is a basic American white militar, he’s ignorant, racist, dumb and don’t see the navi as people, but when he spent times with them, he starts to change, to learn, he evolved as a character to a better person, that’s the whole point
Too much for the average person.
I wonder what your opinion on Avatar Frontiers of Pandora is. It's a game about the kidnapping of na'vi children, and I've seen a few indigenous people praise it for how it handled culture disconnect when you're taken at a young age, etc.
the entire indigenous community worldwide, except Westerners, have praised Avatar, it is the #1 movie in all colonized countries for a reason, they have invited James Cameron, he has joined global protests, Palestinians dressed up as Avatars for their liberation movements, etc. "North American" indigenous people think theyre the only Brown oppressed group, but there's a bigger world out there
@@user-gl6xu1wy7g wow. Imagine not all colonized people being a monolith and one group understanding it as flanderizing their culture while another culture, overseas, with little to no connection to the culture being flanderizing it, thinks it's fine. Who would have seen it coming.
@@user-gl6xu1wy7gPalestinians aren’t a colonized people, so they aren’t a good example. They are impressed, but they are not colonized and Jews are indigenous to the region.
Avatar was created with North American indigenous people’s in mind, so I can understand why they may view it a little differently from other colonized peoples. I don’t think either “side” is necessarily wrong for feeling the way they do.
@@chickensalad3535 Palestine was literally colonized for decades.
@@chickensalad3535 Palestine was literally colonized by Israel, and before that it was colonized by the British.
The best thing about these movies is the extensive amount of academic writing and criticism that people have written about it. Every missed opportunity from these movies has been an opportunity for other people to share their knowledge and experience
And they have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with it.
22:48 I don't like the fact that while Neytiri is like this super impactful, attractive, mysterious lead character in the first movie, it feels like soon as the male lead character "catches" her, she becomes a barely visible, weak, even irritating character that really gets no strong moments on the screen anymore. It's very strongly written from the male-leading perspective, where the female character is objectified for a short period of time for the pleasure of the male character (of the male audience) and can later be forgotten when she's not on the 1000% obsessive focus of the male attention anymore (like a taken woman, mother of children rarely is).
Yes! You perfectly articulated something I intuitively felt about the second film but hadn't quite put my finger on
@formidablity yeah, I couldn't believe Cameron did that to her, since in the first movie she felt like a really strong, well fleshed out character.
I get that more attention was on the kids overall in the second movie, but even with that excuse, with the time and moments she got, she was literally nothing more than a necessary supporting character. Her own parents were more impactful characters in the first movie than she was on the second one!
The people who hadn't seen the first movie would have no idea who she is.
THIS! I’ve always hated that some female characters get cast to the side for this reason.
@@ix3755 I'm happy I wasn't the only one who noticed this. I thought I was crazy for no-one seemed to talk about this 😅
@@Kotifilosofi Exactly! I think it’s bs that once female characters get into a relationship, they get cast to the side for the male character to “shine”. It shouldn’t be that way, like isn’t the point of a relationship to bring out the best in two people?
I'm not indigenous. However, I grew up during the '70s and '80s. I've seen the progress so many tribes have made since those years. I'm sorry far too many people keep insisting that Native Americans are a defeated people- that's simply not true.
Hečhetu
Your indigenous some where. I only say this since humans did migrate across the planet. It’s really a part of who are at our core.
@@theundead1600 This is a very ignorant argument. The fact you can't tell the difference between being Indigenous like Native Americans or Native Native Canadians and being Indigenous to a place speaks volumes.
@@KateCat420 is a British person indigenous to Britain?
@@KateCat420 Everybody came from somewhere. We're all brothers and sisters under the oppression of capital and the military industrial complex.
Nah no way they used *papyrus* as the font for Avatar. My ass was using that for a power point in 4th grade history class.
It was the font used for titles in my old ass LATIN book at school lmao.
Look up the SNL sketch with Ryan Gosling about the papyrus font in Avatar. It's hilarious.
What fascinates me about Schindler's List is that Spielberg chose not to recieve any money from it as he felt it would be blood money
Yeah nice propaganda flick schwindlers list..
@@bapeape8893 Bruh wut?
@@bapeape8893 you're disgusting
@@bapeape8893 You have issues
@@bapeape8893 Oy vey. Shut it down.
I was so mad after I watched that Sideways video and found out we could have had such a different sound to the Avatar film, and I still am! Great video, as someone who is African I found myself identifying with certain aspects with the Na'vi people and their culture/struggles
I think Cameron has good intentions, but he's going about it in a really flawed way. I don't know if it's ignorance, arrogance, or even latent paternalistic racism, but I hope he involves more indigenous consultants and writers as the franchise continues
There's definitely racism in there. I think Cameron needs to do a lot of work on himself before having consultants and writers will even be effective.
isn't good intentions but lazy empathy the entire problem with white savior ideology? Most people have "good intentions" no matter how evil what they do is.
@Kai I mean, there's an interview he explains where he gets inspiration from
The movie is not about people indigenous to any place on Earth... Let James Cameron make his own movie... You go and make a movie the way you want it made. Much better solution than forcing artists to bend to the will of other people. And we end up with a greater variety of films as a result... No one should be making art by committee, that is not art at all...
As creative as human beings, are we also pull from our surroundings, and things were familiar with this is no different than Star Trek or Star Wars, or any other fantasy film with other cultures involved in it even the hobbit is based off of European cultures, but that being said you can’t get upset at somebody, pulling from a real life experience of a culture that actually exist on planet earth. We’re all human beings, and we all influence each other in one way or the other even when you look at language language that are in a certain area have similarties as well. He wasn’t wrong for pulling from real life cultures, especially since this whole film was celebrating the culture in their values within that culture. pulled from many different tribal cultures all over the world. The main two I particularly noticed was African and Native American. He may have pulled from some more but I don’t know.
Really nice, thorough video. I like that you pointed out the issue with the indigenous input in the films. Studi, Curtis, and Evans are _actors_ first and foremost- they shouldn't _have_ to suddenly pull double duty as language and cultural consultants in this multi billion dollar blockbuster series, just because Cameron was too lazy to hire additional indigenous writers and producers. Especially considering these native actors probably weren't _paid_ additional compensation for their informal second jobs, and most certainly weren't given writing credits for them.
Another point I feel doesnt get touched on enough in discussions about this franchise is the need to caveat any criticism with "But the graphics tho!". Everybody's gotta spend time praising the visuals before they can say anything negative about the bits that actually matter- the story and context of the film. Maybe I'm just an indie-film practical-effects curmudgeon, but I just don't care about how fantastical and realistic the CGI is in the latest Disney moneymaker. Like, no shit, if I poured half a billion dollars into a Weta Sweatshop of minimum wage animators I'd probably get something fancy-looking too, even if my initial idea sucked. Gushing about the vfx in the top-grossing blockbuster of the week might as well be complimenting the film's budget more than anything else.
all excellent points, although i, personally have not seen these movies because the Navi make my skin crawl, visually.
The point about the visuals is so real. A good story can save bad visuals, but good visuals can't save a bad story, so it really has very little impact on the fact that the films' stories are bad, yknow?
@@bananasinfrenchthank god the story isnt bad
@@Noob-yx1cu if you say so lmao
@@bananasinfrenchyeah i say so. i like many stories. Which stories do you like more?
As somebody who fell in love with Avatar as a kid and does still have a lot of passion for the franchise, this is *such* an educational and valuable video. It really gives a fair and genuine perspective on the biases and flaws behind its elements, and it makes me really want awareness and improvement from the franchise. Definitely from James Cameron himself. Thank you Mr. Gold!
Honestly same!! That’s why I’m more focused artists of the movie production than him.
I remember when Avatar came out, listening to an indigenous radio show where they called it 'Dancing with Smurfs'
I agree with you on the fact that is seems James Cameron wants to represent and stand with all indigenous people who are fighting and have fought but that ultimately he's off base and out of touch.
I feel like it's a matter of him being bourgeois and also not having any real life experience with indigenous people. It seems his experience is more akin to him going to the zoo instead of actually going to see and talk with people. Maybe a little bit of him not wanting to step out of his comfort zone, like how he kept rejecting music that sounded too foreign.
when i first watch this movie i used to hate it because we humans got lost the war
Maybe he just knows how to make a movie better than you
That’s ironically a bit what the Pandora attraction in Disneys Animal Kingdom gives off, too. That part of the park looks awesomely crafted, but story wise it’s a bit…. yikes.
Loved how your framed this. It does feel like a visit to the zoo through the eyes of imperialism and patriarchy. It’s clear Cameron tries to give good representation to indigenous people but it somehow feels toxic and disingenuous.
If you want to see more projects from an Indigenous perspective, Canada has APTN, a broadcast network dedicated specifically to projects spearheaded by the Indigenous people of Canada. I used to watch "The Longhouse Tales" and "Inuk" on it.
avatar would be an incredible speculative biology docco if the na'vi were.... like, allowed to fit in on their own planet. they were obviously designed to be sexy and its not good for the film. where are their extra limbs? why do they breathe orally? why do they have hair in place of tentacles? its detrimental to include a sapient species thats so human on a planet with otherwise well done aliens. aliens should not look like an earth species especially when the other aliens are nothing like earthly life. when i watched it i found it difficult to watch because the na'vi are alien on an alien world, and its in a negative contrast with every other lifeform
another little nitpick from me was how the na'vi language didn't feel too "alien"; all of its features can be found in human language, as a consequence of how anthropomorphicized their anatomy is.
from a filmmaking perspective (/my perspective) tho, the na'vis anthropomorphicism can be explained as Cameron wanting it to be easier for indigenuous people to relate to the na'vi because (on paper) its probably easier to relate to a blue-skinned cat-human rather than a six-limbed four-eyed creature with operculi on the sides of their necks instead of a nose, but ig even that has problems on its own (outside of the fact they don't fit with the rest of pandora's fauna).
@@DaryavahushTbf about the language part you can't just imagine a language out of the blue, fictional languages are always based on existing sounds because we can't do sounds that don't exist in humans
1. I imagine it wasn't just indigenous people that Cameron wanted the navi to relate to but just people in general because money.
2. Aliens in most media depictions are human looking with crap all over them for a reason it's just much easier and cheaper.
Except the other species on Pandora also clearly mirror animals on earth - wolves, horses, panthers, elephants, etc. The ikran are basically pterodactyls. 💁🏻♀️
The Na'vi were blue for fucks sake. They were also like 9 feet tall with tails and 4 digits on each limb. Also, the fact that you think they're being sexualized says a lot more about you than anything else. Do you sexualize indigenous people who to this day still wear little to no clothing? That sounds like your shit tbh. Also, if you haven't noticed, most aliens in most movies or books are some kind of humanoid being. It started as more of a practicality/relatability thing. It's easier and cheaper to put a person in a costume and call it a day. A lot of writers lean on anthropomorphized creatures so most people can relate to them easier. Also, considering how vast the universe is, it's not that ridiculous to think that there might be a species of bipedal human-like beings on another planet somewhere. I wouldn't recommend watching any Star Wars or Star Trek stuff if you feel this way. Probably not up your alley.
They also show some African influence which was pretty interesting. Native and African culture is so underrated not only that but full of thousands of different language from other tribes.
Honestly after playing Frontiers of Pandora, while it had its issues, it made me wish that the first movie was about a character more similar to the player character of that game because it would make so much more sense for a Na'vi in that situation to be the one to rise up, unite the clans, and take down the RDA than someone like Jake, though I also recognize that a story like that wouldnt have sold as well
interesting that he sees indigenous people in brazil fighting over a dam as fighting for their rights as if indigenous north americans dont literally do the exact same thing. the way i see this movie is why should i trust someone to make a movie about colonialism if they have shown to not understand colonialism. great video btw:)
That's a good way to put it. The video about Avatars music hits so hard when exposing the irony. Glad he brought it up and expanded on it.
Why you see a problem about he's coming to Brazil??
I thought he went there too.
Thank you for all you do!
No, thank you! Means a lot!
When I heard of the movie for the first time, I actually wondered whether the Navi would become a spacefaring people - especially since some of them had a seafaring tradition and the humans had the archival knowledge and abandoned equipment to work with...
There would have to be a major incentive toward that effort - e.g. some sort of cataclysm in the solar system, observed and analyzed by the humans or just the understanding that Earth would take revenge - but it would have been an opportunity to explore indigenous thought and culture, adapting to circumstances _in a unique way_ - instead of merely becoming 'Starfleet cadets'.
Obviously such stories will have to be told by someone who had experiences beyond Kipling's British Empire.
The Na'vi are much older race then Humans, but they probably will never be a spacefaring race. They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone.
@@Taronyu_SVK
"They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone."
It's a valid point, but nothing that sensible writing can't handle - just as man follows different 'commands' at different circumstances: e.g. building an arch prior a deluge or exiting Egypt to escape bondage.
The higher degree of organization would change the people, but that would make the story also more relatable and relevant - in comparison to the current state of the worldbuilding...
@@Taronyu_SVK Schism! Heresy!
To be fair, just because a people have been exposed to new technology, doesn't mean they'd have any idea how it works, or even know how to start learning how it works. And even if they could understand it, it would take decades, if not centuries, to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain space travel. You can't just bootstrap an entire industrialized economy out of nowhere.
Though this reminds me of another fictional Native American knockoff-people: the Tauren, from the Warcraft series. They're a race of minotaurs who wear all the trappings of Native stereotyping. But if you stop and think about their material conditions for a second, they don't really fit the usual narratives at all. Because they are Native Americans _who allied with the colonizers._
In Warcraft 3, the Orcs and Trolls of the Horde landed in Kalimdor, the Tauren's homeland, and established colonies. The Horde brought with it all kinds of new technology: guns and machinery, but also _agriculture._ And the Horde quickly allied with the Tauren, and shared their tech and resources with them in return for Tauren military manpower. In the present day, the Tauren are considered a foundational part of the Horde, with their people being present throughout Horde territory. Modern Tauren regularly make use of Horde technology, grow wealthy from labour and trade within Horde markets, and many Tauren identify with the Horde as a civic institution ahead of their traditional tribes.
This is a _fascinating_ take on Native American history. What could have been, if the colonizers had been willing to compromise and bond with the locals, instead of crushing them. But the series doesn't take it far enough. Because modern Tauren have more in common with Japan during the Meiji Restoration, than Native Americans. They are a society that has experienced a staggering upheaval, in technology, culture and social organization, all within a single generation. There is so much potential to explore the culture shock of this moment in Tauren history, and how radically they might change from their roots (for better or worse).
But it feels like Blizzard are afraid to do anything interesting with the Tauren, because so much of their character is built on Native American stereotypes. Doing anything with them runs the risk of being extremely problematic. Though given the quality of Blizzard's writing as of late, maybe it's better that they haven't tried after all.
@@tbotalpha8133
"You can't just bootstrap an entire industrialized economy out of nowhere."
While I'm inclined to agree, You just mentioned two examples that contradict the statement: the adoption of the Spaniard horse by Native Americans and the modernization of Japan - the latter including unmanned space travel.
Modernization Theory is a lie, but the history that You are looking for was present, indeed in *Stuart America* - when treaties were honored by proper Christians with honor - not Puritan zealots.
FINALLY THANK YOU WHENEVER I TRY TO EXPLAIN MY VIEWS ON THIS FILM AS AN INDIGENOUS PERSON NOBODY GETS IT I FEEL SO SEEN RN
I actually just did a video on the “white savior complex” in the avatar franchise from a perspective of a black person. And also how it’s plot is almost exactly like Atlantis: The lost empire and also similar to Pocahontas. I didn’t go too in-depth because because I don’t come from an indigenous background so there’s obviously that cultural block there that I’m not going to speak on. I’ve been dying to get the perspective of someone from a native/indigenous background on this topic. And I must say u went above and beyond, I honestly think this type of dialog is sooo very important. I think avatar would have been so much better with indigenous people being involved in the writing. How are u going to use their stories and culture in a movie like this and not include them in the movies making. I feel like if he really cared as much as he claimed that’s something he should have done. Instead he chose to create his own narrative out of it. Its kind of frustrating seeing white people continually trying to tell nonwhite people stories and then put their own prospective spin on it. I wish things had been done differently because avatar could have been so much more powerful. U were able to speak on exactly what I had in my heart to say but didn’t feel like it was my place to, and even speak on points I wanted to make but couldn’t quite put into words. This has inspired me to speak on more pressing issues in media etc that need to be addressed. Ik this is long but this has been a very passionate topic for me lol So thank u for giving your perspective in such an informative way.
Where is that video? I’d love to see it.
Always appreciate your videos.
Definitely need more indigenous leaders in media.
Avatar reminds me of the coffee table books of the 1950's, in particular the gorgeous photo books of Indians, over staged black and whites with eurocentric descriptions of these primitive people. Stuyvesant is the author of the book my mom still adores. It's a Dutch Colonialist trophy book.
Whoa. It’s not unlike that, you’re right. I’m reminded of the Time World Cookbook that *didn’t* have someone from that country writing it. It sort of exoticizes it in an excessive manner.
As an indigenous Maori, they did extremely well representing our people. Many of the words, stories, actions, beliefs and looks were largely accurate, as a country in the south pacific who doesn't get a lot of representation on the world stage and isn't acknowledged often by the pakeha (non maori new zealanders) populace, I was so happy to see my culture respected in a blockbuster. I can't speak for maori in general but i know a lot of us who are happy with our portrayal. I think we might be getting more justice to our people because avatar is filmed here so there is most likely going to be more influence from our people on our portrayal.
ps jermaine clement, the whaler scientist guy is maori too lol
Usually is just Americans that get offended with everything
@@sofiareyes2949ah yes take one persons example to completely ignore the underlying issues bro
Good to see the second movie got it better
I was pretty hyped for that movie cuz I loved being in New Zealand and was glad it was being used for these big, important movies :3
Although ironically it seems the world outside New Zealand sees more Maori representation than Pakeha, probably since Maori culture is distinct enough from Anglospheric culture as to be worth mentioning separately.
I am a descendant from the Cora Nation, Nayarit, Mexico.
When I was teaching anthropology at university, I used to tell my students that "District 9" was a far more realistic science-fiction take than "Avatar" on what colonialism actually does to indigenous communities.
I even offered an extra credit assignment for students to watch D9 and compare it with course lessons.
I'm a big fan of the Avatar movies, but I really agree with the points you're making. I think the movies were great, but could have been so much better, if they only only had to be good movies.
It's sad but James Cameron isn't just a filmmaker - he's a moneymaker first. He's making blockbusters and those just need to reach the audience that will make money, so many things like an original score had to be sterilized to sound more Hollywood like, to sound like what the western audience already knows and what appeals to it.
Cameron raises important topics in his movies and his stand often is against the status quo, but they just don't cross the line of making people uncomfortable. I'm a white person living in a pretty much all white country, so I watched Avatar 2 in a full packed all white theatre. During the scene when the reef people are doing a pukana, some people literally laughed aloud. It's just the sad reality of people feeling uncomfortable with even little things that aren't what they're used to.
If those movies weren't so whitewashed, they would be better, more interesting. But would they reach the financial success they did? Probably not. Would they resonate with as many people, would more people listen? Also, probably not.
There's so much more to come in the future and people are getting more informed, I for sure did since the first movie. Still a long way to go though.
Thanks for the video, enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts.
the franchise is disappointing and cynical in creative prospect.
i hope the sequel flops like the rest of di$ney.
@@ir8freeThat didn't age well, did it bud? Sucks to suck.
Ponca/Oklahoma
When the 1st film came out my brother asked me doesn't it make you proud to be native and I didn't say this to him all at the time but I thought "No it makes me feel like they rip us off and then pay no mind to actual history"
They rather make movies about blue space aliens then movies on history about the real red man
What do we got as Natives, Last of the Mohicans and Dances with Wolves? Those aren't too accurate, although beautiful, I Love Last of the Mohicans even though they're still alive ha I'm just saying I think we deserve better representation than blue space aliens
P.S. Shout out for Wes Studi best native actor alive [Native Cry!!]
👍🪶
I had a similar experience when I went to see the first film with my family. My mom really enjoyed it and I had fun with it as a kid. But over the years I have really soured on this whole franchise as I've learned more about our own people's history especially when it comes to how we've been depicted in Hollywood. Things have gotten so much better with films like Prey 2022 and shows like Reservation Dogs. So I don't understand why inspite of all the progress we've made, we still have mediocre representation like this. I just hope James Cameron actually takes all of the feedback from the Native community to heart.
Of course, but remember this is a mash up with reality x fantasy. I loved seeing my people represented in such a beautiful fantasy way. A lot of animes are inspired by real life events. People say its bad representation, but I think its the opposite. They're depicting some aspects of my people into a fantasy mash up. Obviously, it's not going to be exactly like what happened to my ancestors, but it depicts it in a digestible way. Technically, yes, James C is profiting off of our culture and what happened to our ancestors, but unfortunately, in this world that's how it will be when showing anyones cultures. People also say it has white saviourism, which it is not. If you think it is, then you need to rewatch or get a new brain. Jake is an ally. He's helping and fighting along side them. Ultimately, he does not save the people. Their god, Eywa, saves them and the people save themselves. People are clearly blind if they think Jake saved everyone by himself like a superhero. He just helped. I do not like the comments that James C has said about Native Americans, but we can separate a culturally beautiful film from the person who made it.
@@bellal320 I'm glad you were able to enjoy it. But I've seen other fantasy x indigenous stories with better representation like Maya and the Three on Netflix or Rebecca Roanhorse's Between Earth and Sky novel series (although Roanhorse's history as an indigenous author is contentious in the Native community). If you can recommend any properties that mash up Native culture and fantasy, I'd like to hear them.
@@arturopineda1997 What's wrong with the representation in Avatar?? I thought it was cool that they mixed african x maori x native american into a specific fantasy universe. I wonder what the next tribe will be based off. I think that all Indigenous people can agree that they all had similar experiences with colonization. They took many historical experiences from the past and applied it to the film. Maya and three was amazing too, but it was also a different storyline...
Glad I stumbled onto this video. As a screenwriter, I created a rather taut, smart monster movie about a living Dinosaur in our modern age. The Protagonist was basically Muldoon from Jurassic Park. After years of on-and-off development, as I became increasingly interested in Aztec Mythology, I incorporated a lot of that research to enhance the world and make it stand out. After a while the protagonist became an Indigenous Nahuatl/Mexica Indiana Jones-type. In making those changes, I came to the difficult realization that I couldn't make it as authentic as it should be. So I commissioned a rewrite by a Mexican American screenwriter. It's currently being pitched to a major Mexican Producer/Director.
This is cool af. Good on you man
Thanks for this video. It seems so blindingly obvious that indigenous voices should be included in the development of the films but here we are.
This has to be the most eloquent "rant" I've ever seen on TH-cam. Amazing work.
i’m realizing that’s probably why i liked the movie so much: it was made to be digested by me but in the process, it was depriving the audience of the true substance of indigenous experiences and culture. what a waste of an interesting scifi concept 22:04
I am so so so glad you brought up Sideways. He is one of my all time favorites, and his analysis of the score does really underscore the whole plot. Not in a self aware kind of way, but in an accidental ignorant kind of way.
I'm happy I made my way here because _it's good to hear from a creator's perspective for whom IS indigenous,_
(I'm only 1/64th and best I got is a Muskoke dictionary from my grandmother and a little history I've read up on)
it's really cool and saddening to hear tidbits of history from, like, EmpLemon here and there, but _really_ getting ground zero views on media I always kinda knew was tied to that western idea of indigenous tribes from someone today actually native is awesome.
making a note
2:07, could just be a weird coincidence but yeah, I got that same kinda "hell yeah" from the Na'vi fighting back with less advanced but just as viable tools and animals as I did seeing the (as of writing) recent New Zealand Maori _Haka_ war cry from elected officials against British laws to discriminate against them.
My biggest issue, mostly with the second movie but also solidly with the first, was the fact that the Navi won despite all logic. There is no way a landbound tribal people could ever resist a spaceborn empire. All the humans have to do is park a ship in orbit, and dump a few million tons of gas down until all life is subdued; they could even combine this with a terraforming effort by dumping pure oxygen down, as the planet's atmosphere is toxic to earth life. The hoplessness of fighting against an unstoppable and intractable force of conquest has its romance too it, but winning that fight only works when it makes sense which this doesn't. When one side has giant robots and space ships and the other has bows and horses, the result is a forgone conclusion in any sane mind. It's kind of a backhanded insult to real natives, showing this far more hopeless fight and saying "Oh, if you just fought harder you'd be free like these guys!" Like, no, the natives fought hard as nails and still lost, if they had been fighting robots they might not have even tried to fight such a hopeless battle.
Then, the second movie went and completely flubbernucked the moral by making the evil empire actually a force desperately struggling against the extinction of the human race, making their cruelty suddenly a sign of desperation to save their species rather than just greed driven malice. This totally throws the whole equation out of wack, turning it from a greedy colonialist empire trying to conquer these innocent tribes just trying to live, into a race of (incredibly foolish) refugees trying to integrate and resorting to violence when their initial peaceful overtures are rejected and their entire species is put at risk. Suddenly the Navi aren't underdogs resisting malevolent invaders, they're sneering landlords watching innocents fleeing disaster starve to death on their doorstep and getting indignant when the hungry foreigners don't just lay down and quietly die somewhere out of sight. This weird twist turned the story from a pretty simple good natives vs bad colonizers caricature of history, to a way more compex tale of two very questionable groups fighting over resources both of them need to survive. They could share, they could both live and even benefit from eachother's culture and science, but greed and malice on both sides drives them to conflict. If that moral ambiguity was intentional I might even praise it, but considering how heavy handedly anti-human the movies otherwise are, I can't help but think this was an unintentional twist.
Now I'm curious for what Cameron will do with this plot of "Earth" is dying. Will he really kill ALL of humanity, even the innocent ones, the ones who did not even know that Pandora exists, just to save the natives, while there's technology and resources for both species flourish?
James cameron has dismissed the resistance of North American Indigenous people, because it doesn't look like the romanticized version of resistance that movies feed us.
He really, really could’ve just made Sully *any* kind of Indigenous man and that first movie would’ve gone over much better. No clue if the second is salvageable, didn’t see it.
I think having the Main Character be indigenous back on earth and reconnecting with his roots while helping the Na'Vi would've been way more interesting.
@@nativemediatheoryI'm not even native American, and I think that would have been really badass
Awesome video again, thanks! You are able to break down very comfortably the indigenous point of view. It really helps me to understand more about the struggle Sámi people have gone and are going through this very day here in Finland. Members of parliament here representing white land and business owners blocked a couple of weeks ago a legislative initiative to give Sámi parliament more power to administrate their own affairs and the land we, the white people, have taken (excactly the same way how it happened there across the Atlantic, btw). Because the law did't pass Finnish adminstration still decides who is indigenous and who is not. The Sámi parliament has no say in that. Also they have no say in mining, wind farming or forestry happening on their reindeer breeding areas.
The situation with the Sámi people is ghastly similar that indigenous people in th US. It makes me think that us Europeans are all the same - evil oppressors. :(
Sámi people are the only indigenous people in the EU and they live in northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. They are nomadic people living off the land and herding reindeer but us westerners have put too many borders on their land and forced them to live in areas that aren't always suitable for them. Not really that different from reservations.
If you ever have the time I wish you'd watch and maybe even react to film Sami Blood from a native American perspective. It is written and directed by half Swedish half Sámi screenwriter/direcor Amanda Kernell. It's in South Sámi language (and a bit in Swedish too). I think it's the only film ever made in southern Sámi language. The film gives very accurate depiction of the realities of 1930's Sámi people across the northern Europe. www.imdb.com/title/tt5287168/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Where did the Finns come from? they came from India, South America, wow, this makes me think that Europeans emerged from the rocks, at some point, why even Europe they invaded.
Disclaimer that I'm a white European (Danish), but... for what it's worth, I watched Avatar when I was 11. Shortly thereafter I got a school assignment to write a fictional story about the first white settlers in North America, and I wrote an appropriately violent story about colonizers who got defeated by the natives 😅
Avatar is massively flawed, but it'll always have a special place in my heart for planting those first seeds of anti-colonialism (something I'm still working on distangling all these years later, what with my country's colonization of Kalaallit Nunaat, and the way we benefit from other countries' colonial power, just by virtue of being Northern European)
Thanks Native Media Theory! Always love your representation! For your input, it's incredibly important, as an Asian American Artist who studies photography and film and as a person who love Avatar; this is an awesome perspective. I totally understand this, definitely gave me more insight on this unseen issue. GOING FOWARD, I think:
- James and his crew need to watch what they say. Though we can understand the purpose and intent, there can be misunderstandings and misinformation. So they need to be clear
- Seriously need to involve more Indigenous/Native Representation Behind/On the screens; especially if the foundation of the Na'vi is what is is based or inspired from. Agree with you on how it doesn't go full circle with where James is coming from.
All of that would really help and reinforce the intent and representation of this film. If they took or could take the approach of Prey, that would be definitely the way to go!
I don´t know if you have read it but there is a mexican book called " Huesos de lagartija" meaning " Lizard bone". Its a fiction story about the spanish conquest of the aztec empire but told from the point of view of two aztec brothers. Its very touching and I always hope that somebody makes a movie about this book because its a sad story but with a strong message.
Avatar follows a lot of trends where I think people intellectually know that colonisation is bad and the people love the underdog resistance narrative, but we still struggle to place ourselves on the bad side of history or reckon with the fact that it's an ongoing issue that still needs to be addressed.
The film paints the military colonists as evil, but the main character can't be. In fact, the main character is the saviour of these aliens! He is needed and superior, and the aliens think he's super cool and sexy. The strawman of colonisation is obviously the bad guy, but the real life ignorance and impact of colonisation goes completely unaddressed because that's where the audience might find themselves uncomfortable
Excellent analysis! I always enjoy your take on Indigenous culture in movies and television. I saw the first Avatar and enjoyed it. I haven't seen this one, but might eventually. The Indigenous metaphor was obvious to me in the first film, but I suppose that due to my White bias I completely missed the "White Savior" trope. Thank you for enlightening me! In fact, not only is it obvious to me now in Avatar, but I see it in the Tarzan stories, which I absolutely loved as a kid. Anyhow, please keep up the excellent work and I'm looking forward to your next video.
There's no white savior trope. Jake is just helping and is an ally. Eywa saves them and the people save themselves.
I do not think Jake Sully is a white savior either. It was very disappointing to see that films that do have the white savior characters and films that created the trope in the first place, influenced Avatar by Cameron's own words. So clearly there are problems with how Cameron in treating the Avatar films when he doesn't get indigenous people onto these projects.
@@angeliparraguirre7329 Very true!! But in this world... nothing is fair:(( I do wish they casted more Natives, African, and Maori people. I guess we cant have our cake and eat it in this world when it comes to actor representation.
This isn't complaining. It's pointing out the obvious that most ignore or are not aware of. It must be said, and you have done so perfectly.
This is a great video and overview! I hadn't heard anything about Cameron's uh... indigenous 'activism' ... so that was some great historical context for me to understand his current work. I really liked how you broke down the various perspectives from indigenous communities and didn't frame it as a monolithic 'take'. Big props for such a nuanced and educational analysis!
Also, your voice is also very soothing to listen to.
Wasn't gonna immediately subscribe to you (was gonna watch a few more videos first) but fucking thank you for understanding that media literacy is actually on the rise. You see, fandom people tend to fearmonger about a "lack of media literacy" (aka they saw some kid have a bad take, or even just have a developmentally typical reaction to the concept of sex). But like, my Gen X Mom thinks the moral of The Little Mermaid is about listening to your parents so it's definitely not a generational thing. It's a very petty reason to subscribe but still.
The rest of the video is very thoughtful and I'm glad I could watch it.
Loving your intro.
I think your fair-minded and generous attitude helps people be open to reconsidering our own judgment of things we like.
I specifically was curious to find an indigenous review of the film, and yours is filling an importing part of my perspective on it. Thanks :)
True. He points out that a lot of indigenous people do enjoy the film and says that's fine. A lot of indigenous people also critique the film and there is a lot to discuss. I think you can both enjoy the film and share criticism. Especially when it's critiquing choices of James Cameron who is in charge of the film.
I think people assuming they can't enjoy a peice of media anymore because it has problematic elements is anyoning.
The point isn't to say you can't enjoy something anymore, the point is to be aware of the elements so you don't consume them uncritically.
Yup, but people take this criticism so personally they feel they have to defend it like they made the movie lmao
People can do what ever they want. If someone doesn’t like that something is offensive to them then they are allowed to not support it. Why do people act like being offended by a piece of media is bad?
@@pleasedont3636 I think you completely missed what the person you're responding to was saying
@@enotsnavdier6867 probably
As much as I like the Avatar series, I feel like Cameron’s approach felt overly simplistic. Even Disney’s Pocahontas, despite its historical inaccuracy, added some nuance to the topic. There’s an interesting video by pilgrim pass that compares the film to Miyazaki’s princess Mononoke, which, in the channel’s opinion, approached the topic in a more nuanced way. I’d highly recommend it.
On a different note, I’m writing an urban fantasy series about Druids and the main character happens to be Native American (Choctaw to be specific). I want to avoid some of the mistakes that Cameron did writing and avoid stereotypes about indigenous peoples. (Such as the Noble savage) Do you have any advice regarding how to approach it?
Send me an email. It’s in the info portion of my channel
@@nativemediatheory*Not only that, but I also liked the fact that you mentioned the genre, Poverty Porn. It’s been very problematic, for example you said that the good that Indigenous ppls do doesn’t linger on as much. However, not only that, but It makes the good done feel unrealistic, fake. Like you said, that genre Is VERY oversatured…👏🏽💯*
Avatar will be nuanced too, in the sequels. I saw that video, and it was not good. And I'm tired of this nuance argument. Like, do you people know that evil exist? Pure evil? Go to Ukraine and tell them that Russians are also good. Good luck. Some people, just want to see the world burn. Period.
@@Taronyu_SVK except the war in ukraine is not a simple good vs evil conflict
Both russia, Ukraine and the west had both very good and bad intentions and the right and wronh reasons to murder at each other
There is no side that is pure good nor pure evil in that war
It has nuanced and complexities which all wars have unlike avatar
So, a poor choice of a real life conflict to prove your point.
People just want to burn the world for very deep and complex reasons as well, even evil still has a cause
@@kungalexander829 Not simple? Haha. Russia is a clear aggressor, and Ukraine is a clear victim. There is no but. West has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand this conflict, do not comment on it.
Great diagnosis - thank you for breaking it down. I did enjoy the movie, but bottom line - the true people of whom the story purports to be about (or are based upon) should be an integral part of the whole process. Representation COUNTS!!!
Clearly an American yt dude (Cameron) can't even assimilate all the historic and geographic elements that make the culture of these two indigenous peoples so different.
They both face a massive genocide until this day, but all the historical events were different, so their answers in form of resistance should never be compared to another in that way.
And as a sad note: Belo Monte Dam was built anyway, erasing in an arbitrary and tragic way everything sacred that connected that people to its land.
I absolutely hate when people travel to a real place and say "oh it's just like blank fictional reality".
Like, James, the people aren't ""like"" the Navi, you made the Navi based on indigenous people and then went back and compared them to your made up world.
Love the longer format.
I have always been interested to hear indigenous perspectives on this film and franchise! Please keep creating! your perspective is incredibly eye opening and I really really appreciate you and your opinions.
My tribe built the pandemic protocol for the town we are in. We give to the community,as well as taking care of our elderly,and young. We have a doctor,and dentist, also we have lawyers to help legal stuff, (helped me a couple of times) we have summer camp trips for kids. The tribe gives it's extra income from the business it owns to he tribe. We are buying back land that was taken.
Not all ribs are successful like mine, but we as a people still rise.
And we give shit and take shit from other rezs, but we are all family.
Bro. I just had to watch both Avatar and Dances with Wolves for a class, and the best part of the experience is finding your channel.
I wish there were more Na'vi stuff involved in the movie because something about the Na'vi lore clicked with me and it always lingered in the back of my mind as far back as 2011. I didn't care about the human stuff, just Na'vi stuff to this day. Cameron had good intentions but fell flat halfway to the finish line. Even with the sequel, I feel like the issues still remained.
I find it really astounding how INTENSELY imaginative Pandora is in every aspect possible... EXCEPT THE PEOPLE.
I'm glad to finally have an Indigenous youtuber to follow thank you for this lil rant uncle 🎊
You can show off to all your friends and family now 😉
Thank you so much for all your hard work, thought and care you put into this video. Your voice is deeply appreciated.
Put me down for 1 "I'm still not going to watch this particular piece of empty propaganda but I'm hoping the kids will learn something powerfully real from this" ticket, please .
To the point of sexualization, if the female Na'vi are sexualised then the males are too. Both gender are very attractive. I mean the male Na'vi have tiny waists and very broad shoulders. additional to that they wear something corset-like to emphasize it even more. So it's equal.
Great video. In some ways, it’s changed my mind. On the whole, it’s helped me focus on what the film actually is and what it isn’t. I don’t think the films were meant to represent or advocate for indigenous people. Do any Hollywood films do that? That being said it doesn’t change the fact that it could have. It doesn’t address the appetite for wanting to see more authentic representation. Avatar contains the zest of multiple indigenous cultures. Cameron's vision includes details that are subtly familiar as opposed to authentic. Despite its potential, it was made for the modern mass market. The only thing that sets it apart is its success. James Cameron does what comes naturally to him. This is telling compelling stories that affect hearts and minds. He can only authentically do this in his own way. I’m confident one day new Directors and creatives will do what James couldn't. It's just going to take time.
I think the thing that muddies the water with Avatar is that it isn't really FOR the indigenous or those already deeply involved and educated on the culture and concerns. It's staring right in the face from the start, the message of Avatar is for "white" people to abandon their perceived alignment to empire, to find humanity in anti-imperialism. That can be frustrating, and might seem to be akin to the "white savior" films of old, but the message really is that there can be no "going back" or "retiring in the frontier" afterwards, which is what I think differentiates them from "white savior" films. Cameron isn't making this for the Doctor Grace Augustine's, the Stanford shirt wearing sociologists who think they know the path to peace, or even for the Eytukan who know all the ways that the depiction in the films use the visual language of exoticism for the Na'vi and that there should be more authentic people telling their experiences as part of the actual tribes and nations. These movies are made for the jarheads, for the Jake Sullys, those who have resentment and reason to hate the empire, have the numbers and political force to enact change, but don't have the direction to guide them. That's why the soundtrack is made for the "western" ear, that's why an empty husk of a protagonist is the lead, that's why the message is defect and dismantle. I think when Cameron says "they should have fought harder", he's not really talking about the people of the First Nations, he's talking about all of the common folk in the empire who should have fought alongside them.
That makes a lot of sense, I think you're right. And it makes those comments about 'fighting harder' far less disgusting.
I think we forget how clueless a lot of white westerners are. I had a friend who wouldnt even watch Pocahontas when we were young, because she couldn't relate to the darker skinned people wearing native clothing. I was open minded of course, but it was still my first exposure to Native Americans (Im british not american). I think those gateway films are valuable in their own way.
i'm glad your channel found me fr , it's good to hear your perspective . probably gonna have to binge watch now lmao
_Avatar_ suddenly made sense to me when someone pointed out that it's what nature looks like through the eyes of a rich white man. Realistically if something were growing out of our heads that connected directly to our brains, there would be an entire ecosystem of viruses and parasites that could take advantage of that.
Like your eyes? Or ears? Or nose? Or mouth?
I genuinely do not get the point. There is a lot to be criticized with this movies, but I dont think thay part of Navi anatomy is
This was a super great educational piece for me. I’ve been thinking about that Apache comment Cameron made for a couple years now and getting an indigenous perspective is invaluable 🙌🏻 thanks so much for your graciousness and your nuanced approach!!
After watching the first one, i thouht it was a shallow mix of Nausica of the valley of the wind, Dances with wolwes and little bit of Matrix.dww's plot, Nausica's poison atmosphere, giant trees, giant armored animals with multiple eyes and telepathic yellow tentacles, When it comes to Matrix, the link aspect was pretty similar, same goes for the work/combat suits.
Your honesty and diplomacy is always appreciated. :-)
I admire Cameron for what he is trying to do for the enviorment, and the dedication he has to filmmaking. Both Avatar movies are beautiful (to look at), but it left a sour taste in my mouth when Jake is the "savior". I also think he sees himself somewhat of a "savior" instead of a supporter. It's such a shame that he doesn't include indigenous people in the writer's room, and that they aren't very well represented in the production. I hope, like you said, that he learns from this and takes the critisim to heart and actually tries to do better for the making of the fourth movie. I really like the way you break these things down and analyze it. I watched your review on the first season of Reservation Dogs, I thought it was great! It got me wondering if you've watched Trickster and if you'd consider doing a video on it and the controversy?
At what specific point did Jake see himself as a savior ? Real question
@@RaiObeyI think they meant James Cameron sees himself as a savior
Thanks for the thorough view into your thoughts. I've long been aware of the flaws of Avatar, but I haven't fully understood. This video helps. I love those movies for the visuals, acting, characters and themes (respect for mother nature, for example), I can heavily relate to Kiri being different and getting lost within her own mind, but I can also acknowledge the issues of the story and behind the scenes. I appreciate your calmness, you're not making personal jabs at Cameron, like a lot of internet critics do. I do believe the man is trying, and like any human, he makes mistakes. What's important is that he does advocate for the native people, and brings awareness, even if it may be slightly ignorant. It's a start, and people in future generations can be introduced and learn even more, and do better. That's my hope.
I know this was a lot of work with a lot behind it, and I sincerely appreciate you making it.
Hi! This is the first video of yours I've seen: I like how you're knowledgeable without presenting yourself as infallible. I value humility and intellectual rigour together. It's really engaging :) Come for the Indigenous voice, stay for the piercing analysis.
Cameron is just once again using the white savior complex in his movie, saving a people he knows nothing about for his own self-importance.
I feel like you do a great job going deep without getting repetitive- every line is important and i love your commentary on this thanks for sharing and creating! 🙏❤
This video was fantastic!!!
It makes me wish for more indigenous video essays like this in the future
Commented early before I could forget btw
I’d love to see a video on an Indigenous person’s take on Avatar and what they would change or rewrite it and see how different they would be and if the films would be even more enjoyable.
as someone who is not indigenous ever since i developed critical thinking skills blue avatar has seemed like the white man's version of what they think indigenous people are like. the way james cameron talks about these movies just increases that feeling. at every step the creative team came up with legitimately creative and interesting choices but they all ended up being flattened to not alienate white americans at the box office. they are visually beautiful movies but they just don't have anything to say. at most they are saying that colonialism is bad and i'm glad james cameron is on the right page about that but i feel like we as a society need to move past "colonialism is bad" and james cameron is simply not the right person to lead that conversation.
excellent video, really appreciate your perspective! Looking forward to goin thru your other stuff
I would love to see an Indigenous Issues video about how the forsworn are portrayed in skyrim if you've played it!!!
This is a great video and im glad i found it! I did not realize James Cameron said all that but i hadnt been looking for it.
Someone might have already mentioned this but one thing that struck me was Cameron saying "they should have fought harder" yet the first movie (only one ive seen) shows the Navi winning because a goddess intervened. So does that mean he also believes there was/is nothing Natives fighting could have done even if they did "fight harder?"
Good to see you again brother. Well said, i think the same on this topic that's why i'm not at all interested in this kind of films there is just not enough indigenous input. Can't wait to see what you are working on, I would definitely be interested in a film or book coming from you. ✌🏾
"Indigenous Resistance" is an awesome Band/Album/Movie name
This video deserves more recognition! You discuss the most important aspects of this discourse with clear and concise points.
Come on TH-cam Algorithm, pick it up!
I find Avatar refreshingly diffrent. An alien more "savage" living like world invaded by humans with high technology advantage. Because usually it's quite the other way around (Earth getting invaded by high tech aliens)
I honestly don't think the indigenous representation was more than an afterthought.
Which is frustrating.
James Sully as the protagonist is as much the everyman as a character can be, and that decision feels quite deliberate in comparison. This movie seems much more like an emotional appeal to said everyman, and I think that's the part these movies excel at. Introducing nature with one layer of obfuscation, as to not immediately recall the problems our ecosystems face as a gradual process, slowly but with certainty being polluted. That gradual change is replaced by a sharp knife where what we just learned to appreciate is destroyed in front of our eyes, causing at least me the anger environmental destruction deserves.
It seems to me like that's the movie's primary goal, to make that connection and Indigenous cultures are more windowdressing than anything.
It's frustrating. Looking a bit into the language Na'vi has been fascinating. I'm not sure how mch influence from real Indigenous languages has found it's way in there, but it does show differences in thought, that are difficult to translate into a movie. The way the music was handled is an utter travesty, but again: I can sadly see how it clashed with the mission to have the everyman immerse themselves enough to be emotionally captured. And I think the movies do convey that one point pretty well.
It's personal to Cameron due to his environmentalism and HIS understanding and HIS vision of how empathy with nature might be a motivator. The 2nd movie does include the common perspective of white families: Sure, this is all bad, but if I can protect my nuclear family everything is fine, but no, Climate Change and environmental destruction will come home to roost eventually.
I'm glad some indigenous people saw and see themselves in the portrayal of the Na'vi, but I can more than understand people being pissed about it.
Don't know how I missed this when it came out but thanks so much!
Every time someone tries to talk about race and Avatar, the conversation just gets shut down. Especially on Reddit.
Surprised to have taken so long to find a video like this!
If you haven't read it already, the meticulously sourced and well-written Wikipedia entry on Ursula K. LeGuin's novella "The Word for World is Forest" and the "Avatar" story's similarities to it may be of interest. When I first learned of the plot of the first Avatar film, LeGuin's work was the first thing I thought of. She wrote it back in the 1970s.
Brazil mentioned! ❤🇧🇷 thank you for this awsome video
I didn't really think of it as Dances with Wolves when I saw the first movie. What struck me was that it was almost a beat-for-beat re-telling of Dune with a glow in the dark forest and organic USB ports.
then Dune is a ripoff of John Carter from Mars
Leave Dune out of this.
@@lydiaboll2872 Dune?! You mean John Carter from Mars but with nuns and muslims?
@@chrisbarnett5303it does have a lot of aspects of John Carter of Mars. Herbert even considered setting the firet book on Mars before deciding to start fresh with Arrakis
Thank you for this amazing video! I dont know why youtube recommended it to me but I'm very glad it did!