The Wiim streamer products are a popular budget option now, they do have built-in DACs but a lot of people run external ones with them because they are such well featured streamers.
@@unewbwiim streams bit perfect hi res files if you bypass the dac and volume control. It's as good as the dac you use so can be absolutely excellent with an excellent dac.
As others have suggested, buy a WiiM streamer to get you started. I have had them all, and would recommend you start at the top...WiiM Pro Plus. At that level, the DAC is decent enough to hold you over until you buy a great DAC. In addition, the sound quality is really good...especially if you power it with a high quality LPS. I have a Pine Tree Audio custom, dual linear power supply and it powers both the WiiM and my Geshelli J2S DAC with the Sparkos 2590 Pro op-amps. In the absence of spending thousands more, that combination is truly amazing. Good luck with your Audio journey.
Two years ago I built a RPi streamer and plug it into a Schiit DAC. Great system and I can always upgrade the DAC at some point. Total cost was about $200.
Yes indeed- a Bluesound Node is about $500 and though it has a DAC, it also has a digital output so yeah, run the node into an Uber performance DAC when you’re ready to make the plunge
Get rid of the case and put the board on plastic standoffs. And get a really clean power supply suited for digital use (not the standard 'audiophile' ones). Don't use the USB, but the RCA. Then it gets quite good.
Nice to see the Betas again. I was able to hear a pair once in a demonstration put on by Dolby Labs at an IASCA national event once. Not ideal conditions but still one of the best examples of stereo imaging I have ever heard. I did just think of a question. The betas included what Infinity called Servo Control for the woofers. We don't really hear about anything like that anymore. Are amplifiers able to control the speaker enough that control mechanisms like that are not required anymore? Did the system cause other issues? Again Thank you for the content and short concise videos.
I have the ifi zen stream in my system and for me it has amazing quality sound as a result of its high quality components. Among these a Femto Reclocker that minimizes jitter. A firmware update improved the performance even more, with even more expanded soundstage and excellent instrument separation. Together with an ifi higher quality power supply it goes next level. I use the streamer as a transport with an SSD that has my complete lossless library.
I've tried a lot of streamers. The Ifi Zen Stream is a great piece of kit but, its a little fiddly. The WiiM Pro is a no hassle device that most people will find easy to use, and the price is right. Currently I'm using a Raspberry Pi based streamer with parts from Ian Canada, a little bit of a learning curve getting it up and running but the sound is excellent.
I've ust been through the exercise of trying to find a good streamer - better than a WiimPro - at a reasonable price. I ended up buying a Primare NP5 Prism MK2 and am very pleased. It is a standalone packaging of Primare's streaming technology platform used across it's product range.
The Gen 3 Bluesound Node is great value! It ultimately got relegated to my bedroom system for TV and Streaming duties. If you want a Rock Solid Network streamer going to a nice DAC, I would recommend the super plunge and go with Innuous Pulse. Excellent Software and Sound quality is through the roof
IFi's Zen Blue line is quite good. Starting price is $100. If you can get a stream to your PC, phone or tablet, then it can go to the Zen wirelessly. LDAC on Android is great, some are disappointed with iOS limitations. I'm on the side of the DAC is making more important than the data rate. IFi is good there.
Hello Paul! My name is João, I’m from Portugal, Lisbon, I love your videos, I see them all, keep on the excellent work! I am considering to buy a switcher from Aliexpress, so I can plug both my three vintage receivers and my three sets of oudspeakers, without having to manually handle the cables constantly. Do you think that will decrease my sound quality in a significant way? Can you suggest me something in that field? Thank you very much, I wish you all the best and I hope to watch your videos for many years to come!
Reality is that for the most optimum performance, having the DAC tightly coupled to the "streamer" is making a lot of sense. There are several reasons for it. A DAC chip has capabilities and modes to control that you can't optimally manage through SPDIF, TOSLink or I2S interface. Ideally your streamer software is fully aware of the capabilities of your DAC and ensures you get the very optimum playback at all time. This means the streamer picks the best stream available and lossless with no sample rate conversion, no resolution conversion etc. Also, you want to run the DAC's clock precisely without PLL controlling the rate of pulling data from the streaming service. This is also done much better with everything in one box where the clock master is also the DAC clock. Yes, this idea of jitter being an issue is partly due to how PLLs are used to accommodate two boxes running their individual separate clock with a one-way data interface such as TOSLink pushing the data between them. When tightly coupled in one box, you completely can avoid any notion of audible jitter, unwanted sample rate conversion, less than optimum stream codec etc. If someone decides to include DSD in a streaming service, it's also trivial to support when the streaming software is aware the DAC chip can support DSD and control it to DSD mode. Then it should be quite obvious that adding another box with another power supply and interconnect will not help make the sound better. Some theoretical notion that the streamer might make noise that can affect the analog output of the DAC is alright, but good engineering can easily bring such interference down well below any level of concern.
PAUL, or any one else, if you have a top-of-the-line receiver from a couple years back, with all the major streaming companies built-in, and and capable of streaming 24 bit/384, possibly 32 bit DSD up to 11.2 mhz is there any reason at all to be concerned about getting an external streamer? Thank you for your opinion in advance!
or even use the optical/HDMI output of your computer/laptop and turn off any kind of eq that you may have on it. let the DAC/Pre-Amp handle the signal.
🎉That will certainly work. But any device designed specifically for streaming will have a full function "remote" capability (my Blusound Node has a phone app to control it) that will make your experience much more pleasant than either a wire tethering your phone to the DAC or a bulky laptop computer balanced some ad-hoc location near your system. Plus, you don't have to get up to change the track.
For a step up above the WiiM, but under the Node , consider Cambridge Audio's MXN10. Often on sale for $400 on their eBay site. One issue with streamers or streamer/DAC combos is that most no longer offer USB as an output or I2S, so you end up using coax or optical. But, my understanding is that if you use one of those instead of USB or I2S to feed a nice external DAC, that the streamer clock and whatever jitter it has will be controlling the stream, not your more expensive DAC that has a better clocker inside. We need one of the lower tier companies to offer a streamer with USB or I2S outputs.
Finally someone that gets it regarding connection protocols between a transport and DAC!!! I want a transport/streamer (NOT a streamer/DAC combo) with an excellent UI (like Wiim) with a USB or/and I2s out put so my über de luxe High End Super DAC get the chance to use its PLL/clock. How hard can it be!?!?! It will sell like hot cakes - trust me :)
@@martinlindberg1983 some say the later versions of the Bluesound Node offers USB output, but the manual isn't clear on whether or not it passes the clock duties to an external DAC, so the jury is still out on that one. I'll keep looking. I can't justify the cost of a Lumin U2 Mini. Good luck.
Raspberry pi with a digi hat (HiFi berry or justboom), there are many options like volumio, moode, picoreplayer, raudio (rune audio). You can also spend more and look at what Ian Canada sells. I use such a setup and the quality is very good.
Yes for those with DIY abilities Raspberry Pi + Allo Digi1/ Ian Canada Boards & decent power supplies will allow unbeatable SQ / price ratio. Not Plug & Play, non accessible to all though.
@@stephanespohr886 not accessible to all yes, the question was from someone who wanted good quality at a decent price diy is best option. It's not rocket science and can be done by anyone who has the time to research and learn.
I was thinking about buying a DAC but the only way that this will ever happen is if I can get an A-B test to show me the value. I live in Boston and I can’t find anyone that will provide that. So, no DAC.
I bought a used Digione with external linear psu.. I run Volumio witn Qobuz.. Such an upgrade fora little over 100 bucks, compared to my Nuc with a SOTM ddt
You can bypass the DAC in almost all of the streamers out there, as long as they have digital outputs. I use a Wiim Mini ($90!) and it works very well using my external DAC. It only has a Toslink digital out though, so if you want more options, you can get the Wiim Pro for about $150. The most frustrating thing I"ve found with streamer reviews is that the reviewers never compare streamers using an external DAC. They only compare performance using the streamers' internal DACs. Most of us audiophiles have our own separate DACs, so it would be nice if the reviewers would compare only the digital portion of the streamer. I suspect there may be little if any difference. It seems to me that the part to compare is the interface. I like the Wiim interface. It's intuitive and easy to use. I've heard that the Bluesound has a very nice user interface, as well as the higher priced Eversolo A6 among others.
Amen. Your comments are copy/paste from my own mind - I totally agree. That's why I think many reviewers is not up to the task, not understanding the difference nor the intention of a streamer/DAC combo... Digital out is the way to go if you don´t pay big money and aim for an Auralic Vega, Eversolo A8 or similar streamer/DAC combo?!
Node 2i bypass the dac , I have a node 2i with a upgraded power supply on board then a IFI SMPS wall wart and a decent power cable AQ and I bypass the on board DAC to an ares 2 and it sound great . I originally bought it off Amazon returned it then seen it as used on Amazon picked it up for 300 and turned out to be new .
I've never understood the point of buying a streamer. I have an Amazon Prime Music subscription which has thousands of albums ripped in high resolution, although you need to use the amazon app to decode those streams. I use a mac mini with usb connection to a Denafrips Pontus II DAC and it sounds pretty darn good. Can someone explain the point of buying another piece of gear to do the same thing?
I bought a Lumin U2 mini last year and ran it into my DirectStream DAC. It sounded fine but not enough better compared with my mac Mini feeding the same DAC over USB to warrant it;s cost. I use Qobuz most of the time. For now I'll stick with what i have, also to my ears the M1 Mac Mini seems quieter compared to the intel Mac Mini's. Also being half blind I prefer a computer screen to an Iphone screen - bigger is better for me.
Yeah works great but when you have a highend PC burning through tons of power for nothing but to play some music, it isn't all that green or cheap any more.
The DAC is included on most cheap streamers because it's easy and cheap to do so. Just ignore the built-in DAC, and buy a streamer based on the quality and features it offers as a streamer.
Paul, you are all over the place in this one. First you agree with the writer saying that streamers are hard to come by and then at the end you said there are plenty of streamers out there. Just Bizarre. The writer simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Streamers are in plenty of abundance if he doesn't just focus on PS audio. And in fact they'll start at $100 and up
I want an Eversolo streamer with the awesome screen but without a dac. I feel the dac is just wasted money because I’ll use an external one anyways. Sadly that product doesn’t really exist unless you jump way up to a hifi rose or something. I’m thinking more like the $400-500 range which Eversolo could absolutely do if they wanted to.
I bought the Eversolo dmp-a6 ME plus a 4Tb SSD drive 3 weeks ago and I’m still busy ripping more than 3000 CDs onto the SSD drive. The streamer is of high quality and quite cheap and I can highly recommend it.
@@wernerschroer6138 Obviously I'm well aware of it. I want that without the dac which I'd never use so I don't want to pay for it, just give me the streamer with a screen, a budget hifi rose option.
CocktailAudio N15(D), streams all major services, supports an internal SSD for your own music and is built like a little tank. Just bypass the internal DAC. Lots of value for $500.
AirLens or Lumin u2 mini are exceptionell choices. I have the latter and it’s amazing and sooo much better than cheaper streamers such as Bluesound Node that I had before
@@Evil_Peter That is the annoying answer to the issue, just pay extra for this dac you'll never use, more companies need to offer stand alone streamers. If Eversolo made a budget A6 without the dac I'm a buyer. I'm not paying extra for the dac I won't use.
@@hifipi3.14 I think the fact that there aren't many without dacs is a sign of that they wouldn't be that much cheaper without them. If it would be a significant difference I think we would see more of them, especially since they could likely increase their profit margin on the model without a dac in that situation.
@@Evil_Peter I understand your argument but they've had blind spots before, the Wiim is an example of that, before they came out the bluesound node was the only real main stream option at $600 or so, and it didn't make sense why it needed to cost that much to play hi-res music from a phone. They've obviously upset that market as demonstrated in these comments alone. I think the same thing can happen again for stand alone streamers with a large screen and maybe Wiim will do it again. There's a huge imbalance between stand alone dacs, and stand alone streamers and we're all told to just buy a streamer dac and then bypass the internal dac. It's not even about the money for me, I could buy a DMP-A6 or A8 if I wanted to, but I'd rather see the dac money go into a better streamer, if Eversolo made an A6, no dac, same money, but put the dac money into a better clock or whatever I'd happily buy that.
The Node’s OS is a nightmare for me subscribing to Qobuz and Deezer. Very slow. It’s almost comical. For that reason alone I bought an Eversolo A6. Problems solved. I have both connected to same system (RME ADI-2 > Rogue Audio RP-1 > PS Audio M700s > Monitor Audio PL 200s) Both sound good with a little more detail coming from the A6. The Node has live radio app that I prefer over A6 options is why I keep in the system.😊
Stay away from that (and the Musical Fidelity box) since their software is neither updated nor supported anymore. Look at the Volumio Rivo instead if you want a Volumio OS based, high quality, dac-less streamer.
That's bad advice. I have Pro-ject DS-net in second system and as good as it is the app is not working for several years. I'm using it for one specific radio station so I can't be bothered to replace it but I bought Wiim mini for my headphone set up to see what's the fuss about. Let me tell you that they use one of the best app to control it, real joy to use it. Sound is also good thru external DAC/amp.
@@radimvavrecka3481i believe that device uses a different app, am running th mentioned ultra s 2, and the app works nicely, but you need a more recent iphone or ipad for smoothness (if you have a say a 1000 albums via sdd added plus spotify and qobuz like i do).
I second that but mind the version of volumio is not the latest. But so far any major issue (spotify disappeared once) was fixed in the sw. Used ones pop up occasionally on ebay for little money, and provided you improve on the psu (I recommend at least to add ifi dc purifier) you get good sq. I feel though isolation against ethernet noise could be better.. (add a switch netgear 108, ifi lan filter, …and things clearly improve over wifi SQ). So having used the mentioned device for 3 years now and tinkered on psu and ethernet, I suppose my next upgrade (though no rush) would be the volumio rivo (with sbooster + ultra lin psu) feeding my chord qutest.
What i am missing for streamers dedicated iTunes app. Only sonos and eversolo supports. Holo Audio Red just a streamer if no iTunes app necessary. Supports airplay2. Wiim ultra will be announced munich hifi.
The more i watch youtube audio channels, the more i notice a lot of them use giant line array setups for their reference setup. While they are amazing looking and im sure amazing sounding, are they not juat thesame set of drivers stacked from floor to ceiling? Cool looking but not very innovative, just expensive to build?
If you want really good sound, there seems no way around big speakers which are extremely simple. The speakers that consumers want are small and slim and look complicated and need bullshit like dampers, stupid cables and all kinds of extra cost. But the downfall is that they actually almost all sound crap and overpriced, even the expensive ones. As almost nobody has a decent reference, people believe they sound good, which is not the case, A really good speaker (and system) delivers a clean, open sound, which you recognise as 'hey, that sounds like the drummer I heard play live' and 'that singer sounds like singing in the microphone in front of me'.
Exactly. The writer is essentially calling out Paul and asking him why his streamer so damn expensive what is a simple device and there are plenty of others for a fracture the price out there
Yes, they do the same thing. And for most (even 'high' end gear) they are more than capable. Realistic, most speakers are not capable at all, nor are most power amps and DAC's of reproducing music in a decent way. That can easily be hard, yet almost nobody has ever heard a decent system. But if a DAC is capable of about 14 bit reproduction and more (where 18 bits is realistic the max of a true high end device), then a PC (mostly extremely noisy) or MAC (just as bad) and a phone, will not be suitable. Most people are best of with a nice record player as it very often sounds better then a (streaming) DAC anyway.
If he Audio enthusiast population was one percent… Do the math. It’s a quite large number of people that purchase audio components. Then consider how many new audio manufacturers have opened up in the past couple of years. Somebody’s got to be making money large amounts of money in this industry.
Cmon, not that small of a market. Everyone and their grandma has a wiim streamer😊. Buy a wiim pro, a good dac and you be cruising. If you want a pure transport maybe the volumio rivo.
Pretty much everyone in the community would agree on the correct direction to head this guy in = chi-fi - for anyone just starting out on streaming , Grab yourself a wiim pro plus & as someone else mentioned you have the option to try different dacs with these 'all in ones' if you wish..the new smsl d-6s for a couple hundred seems like a very good option for starting out as far as recent releases go...when it becomes obsolete ..youve long had your moneys worth. Paul seems to nonchalantly mention (and stumble on their names) several chi-fi based products in his videos over the last year or so but i cant help but feel , he actually knows far more than he lets on (maybe hes nervous of the impact they are having and direction they are streering the industry in?). Surely hes got too much skin in the game to not keep up with whats going on in his industry, he will have significant knowledge of all of the products making waves - be it names (eversolo/wiim/fosi..to mention a few) and models (dmp-a6/pro plus / v3 (mono!?) And exactly what they do and dont offer. Paul i have a question = What are your thoughts of the real emergence and impact ( and the ever tightening grip ) of chi-fi on the industry over the last few years? Does it A. Bring new people to the hobby who would otherwise be put off because of exorbitant pricing? Maybe they then eventually venture into the high end ... Or B. Devalues the product and threatens jobs in the Western world?
I'd be shocked if Paul replied to your comment. Most people that run TH-cam channels know better than to get into an never ending argument. Nonsense, if you think PS Audio should be overly concerned about China and their audio products. Please tell us the facts about China's real emergence and impact. Plus, that ever tightening grip of the chi-fi industry. What are the real world numbers? Specifically, when comparing PS Audio products and the comparable Chinese audio products. Not just all chi-fi products. China isn't going to put PS Audio out of business. China has their audio fan base (meaning money spenders.) just as PS Audio has their fan base, and many other audio brands in the world have their fan base. Are you a signed-up member on the PS Audio website? If you are then you know of the loyal fan base they have. If you're relying on this TH-cam channel's comment section then you're not getting the whole story. Not all made in China is "budget friendly." Of course, different people have different ideas on what budget friendly is. That is always dictated by one's own budget. $50 dollars for one person or $5k for another person. I bought a new Denafrips Terminator-Plus DAC, and we know where that was made. At the time I wanted to get away from chip based DACs. (Ironic, PS Audio now has a chip less based DAC, but not R2R.) After duties and other incidentals your looking at around 8+k usd, and that was about 3 years ago. Since when does someone with enough money to buy "high end" buy low cost audio equipment? If one is "put off" by "exorbitant" pricing why would they change their mind about spending a lot of money? Because of a piece of low cost and possibly low quality audio product? So, you're telling us that someone that thinks in the terms of "put off" by "exorbitant" pricing is going to have a change of heart and decide to spend money on "high end" audio equipment? Kind of hard to believe, but I guess anything in this world is possible. After all, I still believe I'm going to win that 1.6 billion dollar lottery. Even though my chances are one in millions or is that billions?
People need to be realistic. You are not going to build 50k sound for 1k. Now sometimes if get lucky with used gear maybe build a 50k system for 15k. Now in the price ranges there are brands grossly overpriced and some with good value. Some manufacturer build overseas as labor is so much cheaper there but still use high quality parts and have QC for assembly. DACS can go really high in price like MSB select and DCS Vivaldi stack. I can tell you even on a 500k system some of the flaq files with Qbuz even high res sound like crap. The recording when done was so bad even good tech can only do so much with it. I used to have SACD player from DCS (22k) and played Paul's studio reference super cd's. They were decent when I got them but some of the best Qbuz flaq files sounded dozens of times better just amazing. Part of the fun with qbuz is discovering new artists and high res files that sound great and saving the choices to build your list. If you have limited funds might want to look at a great set of audiophile quality headphones with a great streamer until budget expands more.
Really good sound is so easy and simple, but it takes effort and funds, you are absolutely right. Like everything in life, a bit of luxury mostly takes a bit more money. But it is fun turning on a system and streaming and hearing that the singer breathes, where before it was not noticed. And my personal pleasure, hearing and feeling drums, the attack and the cymbal recorded up front or more in the back, but clean, natural, open. Hearing how the bass is played, the strings touched shortly or longer and agressive. I have found Qobuz quite capable of delivering that in CD Quality files, the High Res seems to work best when the gear is less. Cheers.
Depends on listening environment. If you sit at your PC to listen, then fine, but if you wanna walk around, some kind of wireless control is gonna make your experience much nicer.
@@robertdubard7959 There are plenty of ways to control PCs these days without being sat at a keyboard. Most understand TV and Hifi remote CEC, for example.
Why don’t you tell people that over 75%(possible more) of the streamer is a good software application ? The hardware interface itself is very, very simple, where 90% of the circuit is a good PSU.
@@scottyo64if you need it for background music then why would you bother spending big money on it? Just get any dap with coax out and streaming apps capabilities and thats all you need. I myself have one device just like that which is fiio m11 pro but i use it for everyrhing except for streaming which i hate to the core
It seems there are a lot of Wiim fan boys out there. Without commenting on how they sound, they have an integrated DAC. The question asked was how about a stand alone steamer? That means no DAC. So the Wiim is automatically disqualified because it does not meet the primary specification of NOT having a DAC.
All Wiims have a digital out so you bypass the included dac. Only the Wiim Pro Plus had dac worth using. I use the Wiim Pro to my own fac and couldn't be happier. The app for the Wiims is probably the best you will find.
@@b30sail The point is NOT to get stuff in your gear you do NOT want. Even if it is for free. Less is more, is the saying for a good reason. Regardless if you agree with that or not, that was what it was all about: Finding a streamer *without* a DAC.
@@tacofortgens3471 I am not talking about hearing. Here we have somebody who says, for what ever reason, "I want a streamer without a DAC". And Paul says that makes a lot of sense. The question is very easy, does the Wiim have a DAC yes or no? The answer is yes. So the Wiim is out of the question. What is there not to understand?
The implication there is that either high quality streamers "normalize" the tracks or the cheap ones are more revealing. I doubt either is true so what iyo am I missing?
The Wiim streamer products are a popular budget option now, they do have built-in DACs but a lot of people run external ones with them because they are such well featured streamers.
Get a WiiM.
$100/150 & comes with one of the best dedicated apps at any price, which includes a usable EQ.
Wiim makes an excellent streamer for $150
I have a few different streamers - Wiim is good, the only thing it lacks is SMB support (from my perspective). Just use it as a transport.
Wiim is good at best.
@@granvillebarnett8163 apparently they’re actively working on SMB support too which is good news
Byy a chromebox for $40 and throw vomumio on it.
@@unewbwiim streams bit perfect hi res files if you bypass the dac and volume control. It's as good as the dac you use so can be absolutely excellent with an excellent dac.
As others have suggested, buy a WiiM streamer to get you started. I have had them all, and would recommend you start at the top...WiiM Pro Plus. At that level, the DAC is decent enough to hold you over until you buy a great DAC. In addition, the sound quality is really good...especially if you power it with a high quality LPS. I have a Pine Tree Audio custom, dual linear power supply and it powers both the WiiM and my Geshelli J2S DAC with the Sparkos 2590 Pro op-amps. In the absence of spending thousands more, that combination is truly amazing. Good luck with your Audio journey.
Two years ago I built a RPi streamer and plug it into a Schiit DAC. Great system and I can always upgrade the DAC at some point. Total cost was about $200.
Yes indeed- a Bluesound Node is about $500 and though it has a DAC, it also has a digital output so yeah, run the node into an Uber performance DAC when you’re ready to make the plunge
The ifi Zen Stream is a Streamer Transport too. It is 400€ in Europe and if you wish, you can upgrade the Power supply down the line.
Get rid of the case and put the board on plastic standoffs. And get a really clean power supply suited for digital use (not the standard 'audiophile' ones). Don't use the USB, but the RCA. Then it gets quite good.
The Lumin U2 Mini is somewhat moderately priced and sounds amazing!
My set up.
Wiim pro with a Denafrips Ares DAC 😊
Thank You As Always Mr. McGowan... I Wicked Appreciate Ya!!! 👍😁👍 Jeremy in Massachusetts JB
Nice to see the Betas again. I was able to hear a pair once in a demonstration put on by Dolby Labs at an IASCA national event once. Not ideal conditions but still one of the best examples of stereo imaging I have ever heard.
I did just think of a question. The betas included what Infinity called Servo Control for the woofers. We don't really hear about anything like that anymore. Are amplifiers able to control the speaker enough that control mechanisms like that are not required anymore? Did the system cause other issues?
Again Thank you for the content and short concise videos.
Great recommendation, Paul! I love my BlueSound Node 2i which I've hooked up through optical to my DAC.
I have the ifi zen stream in my system and for me it has amazing quality sound as a result of its high quality components. Among these a Femto Reclocker that minimizes jitter. A firmware update improved the performance even more, with even more expanded soundstage and excellent instrument separation. Together with an ifi higher quality power supply it goes next level. I use the streamer as a transport with an SSD that has my complete lossless library.
I got it out of the case, which helped significantly and did a custom PSU. It's certainly worth the money.
I've tried a lot of streamers. The Ifi Zen Stream is a great piece of kit but, its a little fiddly.
The WiiM Pro is a no hassle device that most people will find easy to use, and the price is right.
Currently I'm using a Raspberry Pi based streamer with parts from Ian Canada, a little bit of a learning curve getting it up and running but the sound is excellent.
I've ust been through the exercise of trying to find a good streamer - better than a WiimPro - at a reasonable price. I ended up buying a Primare NP5 Prism MK2 and am very pleased. It is a standalone packaging of Primare's streaming technology platform used across it's product range.
I bought one too and am very happy with it.
Got the same one, I like it. Recently got a decent power supply for it, that got even a little bit more out of it.
@@TheMMadmaXX Yup, I'm waiting on delivery of a linear power supply.
The Gen 3 Bluesound Node is great value! It ultimately got relegated to my bedroom system for TV and Streaming duties. If you want a Rock Solid Network streamer going to a nice DAC, I would recommend the super plunge and go with Innuous Pulse. Excellent Software and Sound quality is through the roof
Running both an Eversolo DMP A6 and a Node through an RME ADI-2 dac. Chefs kiss!
IFi's Zen Blue line is quite good. Starting price is $100. If you can get a stream to your PC, phone or tablet, then it can go to the Zen wirelessly. LDAC on Android is great, some are disappointed with iOS limitations. I'm on the side of the DAC is making more important than the data rate. IFi is good there.
Hello Paul! My name is João, I’m from Portugal, Lisbon, I love your videos, I see them all, keep on the excellent work! I am considering to buy a switcher from Aliexpress, so I can plug both my three vintage receivers and my three sets of oudspeakers, without having to manually handle the cables constantly. Do you think that will decrease my sound quality in a significant way? Can you suggest me something in that field?
Thank you very much, I wish you all the best and I hope to watch your videos for many years to come!
Reality is that for the most optimum performance, having the DAC tightly coupled to the "streamer" is making a lot of sense. There are several reasons for it. A DAC chip has capabilities and modes to control that you can't optimally manage through SPDIF, TOSLink or I2S interface. Ideally your streamer software is fully aware of the capabilities of your DAC and ensures you get the very optimum playback at all time. This means the streamer picks the best stream available and lossless with no sample rate conversion, no resolution conversion etc. Also, you want to run the DAC's clock precisely without PLL controlling the rate of pulling data from the streaming service. This is also done much better with everything in one box where the clock master is also the DAC clock. Yes, this idea of jitter being an issue is partly due to how PLLs are used to accommodate two boxes running their individual separate clock with a one-way data interface such as TOSLink pushing the data between them. When tightly coupled in one box, you completely can avoid any notion of audible jitter, unwanted sample rate conversion, less than optimum stream codec etc. If someone decides to include DSD in a streaming service, it's also trivial to support when the streaming software is aware the DAC chip can support DSD and control it to DSD mode. Then it should be quite obvious that adding another box with another power supply and interconnect will not help make the sound better. Some theoretical notion that the streamer might make noise that can affect the analog output of the DAC is alright, but good engineering can easily bring such interference down well below any level of concern.
streamers are very good , but an excellent streamers with an excellent contents is hard to find .
I've been using a Yamaha WXC-50, a WiiM Pro, and a WiiM Mini without a separate DAC with fine results. Don't overthink it.
WiiM Pro, it's cheap and good, I use it all the time
60 W output ?
@@edmondj03 WiiM pro not WiiM Amp
I bought the mini and am totally satisfied with it.
PAUL, or any one else, if you have a top-of-the-line receiver from a couple years back, with all the major streaming companies built-in, and and capable of streaming 24 bit/384, possibly 32 bit DSD up to 11.2 mhz is there any reason at all to be concerned about getting an external streamer?
Thank you for your opinion in advance!
Is that device capable of playback in 24 bit? That must be an awesome device.
just plug your I-phone to the DAC or Pre-Amp!
or even use the optical/HDMI output of your computer/laptop and turn off any kind of eq that you may have on it. let the DAC/Pre-Amp handle the signal.
🎉That will certainly work. But any device designed specifically for streaming will have a full function "remote" capability (my Blusound Node has a phone app to control it) that will make your experience much more pleasant than either a wire tethering your phone to the DAC or a bulky laptop computer balanced some ad-hoc location near your system. Plus, you don't have to get up to change the track.
For a step up above the WiiM, but under the Node , consider Cambridge Audio's MXN10. Often on sale for $400 on their eBay site. One issue with streamers or streamer/DAC combos is that most no longer offer USB as an output or I2S, so you end up using coax or optical. But, my understanding is that if you use one of those instead of USB or I2S to feed a nice external DAC, that the streamer clock and whatever jitter it has will be controlling the stream, not your more expensive DAC that has a better clocker inside. We need one of the lower tier companies to offer a streamer with USB or I2S outputs.
Finally someone that gets it regarding connection protocols between a transport and DAC!!! I want a transport/streamer (NOT a streamer/DAC combo) with an excellent UI (like Wiim) with a USB or/and I2s out put so my über de luxe High End Super DAC get the chance to use its PLL/clock. How hard can it be!?!?! It will sell like hot cakes - trust me :)
@@martinlindberg1983 some say the later versions of the Bluesound Node offers USB output, but the manual isn't clear on whether or not it passes the clock duties to an external DAC, so the jury is still out on that one. I'll keep looking. I can't justify the cost of a Lumin U2 Mini. Good luck.
Raspberry pi with a digi hat (HiFi berry or justboom), there are many options like volumio, moode, picoreplayer, raudio (rune audio). You can also spend more and look at what Ian Canada sells. I use such a setup and the quality is very good.
Yes for those with DIY abilities Raspberry Pi + Allo Digi1/ Ian Canada Boards & decent power supplies will allow unbeatable SQ / price ratio. Not Plug & Play, non accessible to all though.
@@stephanespohr886 not accessible to all yes, the question was from someone who wanted good quality at a decent price diy is best option. It's not rocket science and can be done by anyone who has the time to research and learn.
I was thinking about buying a DAC but the only way that this will ever happen is if I can get an A-B test to show me the value. I live in Boston and I can’t find anyone that will provide that. So, no DAC.
I bought a used Digione with external linear psu.. I run Volumio witn Qobuz.. Such an upgrade fora little over 100 bucks, compared to my Nuc with a SOTM ddt
You can bypass the DAC in almost all of the streamers out there, as long as they have digital outputs. I use a Wiim Mini ($90!) and it works very well using my external DAC. It only has a Toslink digital out though, so if you want more options, you can get the Wiim Pro for about $150. The most frustrating thing I"ve found with streamer reviews is that the reviewers never compare streamers using an external DAC. They only compare performance using the streamers' internal DACs. Most of us audiophiles have our own separate DACs, so it would be nice if the reviewers would compare only the digital portion of the streamer. I suspect there may be little if any difference. It seems to me that the part to compare is the interface. I like the Wiim interface. It's intuitive and easy to use. I've heard that the Bluesound has a very nice user interface, as well as the higher priced Eversolo A6 among others.
Amen. Your comments are copy/paste from my own mind - I totally agree. That's why I think many reviewers is not up to the task, not understanding the difference nor the intention of a streamer/DAC combo... Digital out is the way to go if you don´t pay big money and aim for an Auralic Vega, Eversolo A8 or similar streamer/DAC combo?!
Node 2i bypass the dac , I have a node 2i with a upgraded power supply on board then a IFI SMPS wall wart and a decent power cable AQ and I bypass the on board DAC to an ares 2 and it sound great . I originally bought it off Amazon returned it then seen it as used on Amazon picked it up for 300 and turned out to be new .
I've got the WiiM mini, WiiM pro and Eversolo DMP STEWA MMM...
I stream Tidal through blue os, output to dac on my ps pre amp, reasonable cost, great performance
I've never understood the point of buying a streamer. I have an Amazon Prime Music subscription which has thousands of albums ripped in high resolution, although you need to use the amazon app to decode those streams. I use a mac mini with usb connection to a Denafrips Pontus II DAC and it sounds pretty darn good. Can someone explain the point of buying another piece of gear to do the same thing?
Yea, the Blue Node is a good pace to start.
I bought a Lumin U2 mini last year and ran it into my DirectStream DAC. It sounded fine but not enough better compared with my mac Mini feeding the same DAC over USB to warrant it;s cost. I use Qobuz most of the time.
For now I'll stick with what i have, also to my ears the M1 Mac Mini seems quieter compared to the intel Mac Mini's. Also being half blind I prefer a computer screen to an Iphone screen - bigger is better for me.
For most audiophiles, the 1% it’s all about nostalgia and can’t include streaming 😢
Streaming Transports are pretty Niche. Dac chips are cheap so most have a dac inside. Best to ignore the DAC Chip in and use a digital output put.
Computer for all streaming tv and music since 2011
Yeah works great but when you have a highend PC burning through tons of power for nothing but to play some music, it isn't all that green or cheap any more.
The DAC is included on most cheap streamers because it's easy and cheap to do so. Just ignore the built-in DAC, and buy a streamer based on the quality and features it offers as a streamer.
Paul, you are all over the place in this one. First you agree with the writer saying that streamers are hard to come by and then at the end you said there are plenty of streamers out there. Just Bizarre. The writer simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Streamers are in plenty of abundance if he doesn't just focus on PS audio. And in fact they'll start at $100 and up
As cheap as you want to honestly, Volumio is free open source software
Got to get those licks in, lol!
Wiim amp. "All in one."
Winamp 😊
I want an Eversolo streamer with the awesome screen but without a dac. I feel the dac is just wasted money because I’ll use an external one anyways. Sadly that product doesn’t really exist unless you jump way up to a hifi rose or something. I’m thinking more like the $400-500 range which Eversolo could absolutely do if they wanted to.
I bought the Eversolo dmp-a6 ME plus a 4Tb SSD drive 3 weeks ago and I’m still busy ripping more than 3000 CDs onto the SSD drive. The streamer is of high quality and quite cheap and I can highly recommend it.
@@wernerschroer6138 Obviously I'm well aware of it. I want that without the dac which I'd never use so I don't want to pay for it, just give me the streamer with a screen, a budget hifi rose option.
McIntosh MB20 sounds amazing. It was around 500 bucks
Using the digital out of a chromecast audio has fine results for small price
Entry level: Wiim, mid-level Primare Prism NP5, high-end (for me at least) Lumin U2 mini
CocktailAudio N15(D), streams all major services, supports an internal SSD for your own music and is built like a little tank. Just bypass the internal DAC. Lots of value for $500.
Still use macmini with roon- its ok litte bit noisy - and Software Updates are a pain in …. But this is decent
Thanks
AirLens or Lumin u2 mini are exceptionell choices. I have the latter and it’s amazing and sooo much better than cheaper streamers such as Bluesound Node that I had before
You don't have to use the dac in the streamer...
I use a Node 2i with a separate DAC
This is the simple answer to the issue. Just use the digital output of whatever streamer that catches your fancy.
@@Evil_Peter That is the annoying answer to the issue, just pay extra for this dac you'll never use, more companies need to offer stand alone streamers. If Eversolo made a budget A6 without the dac I'm a buyer. I'm not paying extra for the dac I won't use.
@@hifipi3.14 I think the fact that there aren't many without dacs is a sign of that they wouldn't be that much cheaper without them. If it would be a significant difference I think we would see more of them, especially since they could likely increase their profit margin on the model without a dac in that situation.
@@Evil_Peter I understand your argument but they've had blind spots before, the Wiim is an example of that, before they came out the bluesound node was the only real main stream option at $600 or so, and it didn't make sense why it needed to cost that much to play hi-res music from a phone. They've obviously upset that market as demonstrated in these comments alone. I think the same thing can happen again for stand alone streamers with a large screen and maybe Wiim will do it again. There's a huge imbalance between stand alone dacs, and stand alone streamers and we're all told to just buy a streamer dac and then bypass the internal dac. It's not even about the money for me, I could buy a DMP-A6 or A8 if I wanted to, but I'd rather see the dac money go into a better streamer, if Eversolo made an A6, no dac, same money, but put the dac money into a better clock or whatever I'd happily buy that.
PC, USB....oh gawd all that "noise" ! 🤣
There’s also the bad frequency range with some of them. That’s why I use a rather inexpensive outboard DAC.
@@bikdav I was actually kidding about the noise thing.
There isn’t much noise
@@chungang7037 It’s the frequency range issue that I’ve had with a few PCs and MACs.
@@bikdav a PC changed the FR? 🧐
Save money and get a wiim mini and smsl su1 dac. The sound quality increase I got from that inexpensive combo blew my mind.
Bluesound Node, you can use an external DAC. Easy
The Node’s OS is a nightmare for me subscribing to Qobuz and Deezer. Very slow. It’s almost comical. For that reason alone I bought an Eversolo A6. Problems solved. I have both connected to same system (RME ADI-2 > Rogue Audio RP-1 > PS Audio M700s > Monitor Audio PL 200s) Both sound good with a little more detail coming from the A6. The Node has live radio app that I prefer over A6 options is why I keep in the system.😊
Marantz NA-6006 is pretty choice. Very enjoyable.
Pro-ject Ultra Stream Box 2 is another choice
Stay away from that (and the Musical Fidelity box) since their software is neither updated nor supported anymore. Look at the Volumio Rivo instead if you want a Volumio OS based, high quality, dac-less streamer.
That's bad advice. I have Pro-ject DS-net in second system and as good as it is the app is not working for several years. I'm using it for one specific radio station so I can't be bothered to replace it but I bought Wiim mini for my headphone set up to see what's the fuss about. Let me tell you that they use one of the best app to control it, real joy to use it. Sound is also good thru external DAC/amp.
@@radimvavrecka3481i believe that device uses a different app, am running th mentioned ultra s 2, and the app works nicely, but you need a more recent iphone or ipad for smoothness (if you have a say a 1000 albums via sdd added plus spotify and qobuz like i do).
I second that but mind the version of volumio is not the latest. But so far any major issue (spotify disappeared once) was fixed in the sw. Used ones pop up occasionally on ebay for little money, and provided you improve on the psu (I recommend at least to add ifi dc purifier) you get good sq. I feel though isolation against ethernet noise could be better.. (add a switch netgear 108, ifi lan filter, …and things clearly improve over wifi SQ).
So having used the mentioned device for 3 years now and tinkered on psu and ethernet, I suppose my next upgrade (though no rush) would be the volumio rivo (with sbooster + ultra lin psu) feeding my chord qutest.
If it was cheaper i would love to have that streamer deck you sell i would do around 1000$ for one
save a little more, wait a year... used ones will be on Audiogon
I use the echo flex - $10 😊
What i am missing for streamers dedicated iTunes app. Only sonos and eversolo supports. Holo Audio Red just a streamer if no iTunes app necessary. Supports airplay2. Wiim ultra will be announced munich hifi.
thanks Paul McGowan and PS Audio Team. Chris is the speaker Pope .....top team
I would suggest LUMIN if you want hi-end streamer at affordable price.
Wiim products are excellent!!!! I have no need or desire for a box with a screen. Although I'm quite sure PS Audio products are top of the line.
The more i watch youtube audio channels, the more i notice a lot of them use giant line array setups for their reference setup. While they are amazing looking and im sure amazing sounding, are they not juat thesame set of drivers stacked from floor to ceiling? Cool looking but not very innovative, just expensive to build?
If you want really good sound, there seems no way around big speakers which are extremely simple. The speakers that consumers want are small and slim and look complicated and need bullshit like dampers, stupid cables and all kinds of extra cost. But the downfall is that they actually almost all sound crap and overpriced, even the expensive ones. As almost nobody has a decent reference, people believe they sound good, which is not the case, A really good speaker (and system) delivers a clean, open sound, which you recognise as 'hey, that sounds like the drummer I heard play live' and 'that singer sounds like singing in the microphone in front of me'.
The correct question is why are streamers so expensive when you can just use a pc,mac or a phone to do the same thing
Exactly. The writer is essentially calling out Paul and asking him why his streamer so damn expensive what is a simple device and there are plenty of others for a fracture the price out there
Yes, they do the same thing. And for most (even 'high' end gear) they are more than capable. Realistic, most speakers are not capable at all, nor are most power amps and DAC's of reproducing music in a decent way. That can easily be hard, yet almost nobody has ever heard a decent system. But if a DAC is capable of about 14 bit reproduction and more (where 18 bits is realistic the max of a true high end device), then a PC (mostly extremely noisy) or MAC (just as bad) and a phone, will not be suitable. Most people are best of with a nice record player as it very often sounds better then a (streaming) DAC anyway.
Raspberry Pi is enough for a pure streamer. ProJect makes one out of the box on that basis
There is a bunch of servers for under a grand.
Hifi Rose rocks!
Just bypass the internal dac through digital out.
Raspberry Pi can do it all for $100.
and does it better and quieter
Get a WiiM. If you don't really want a streamer with DAC in it, build one using Raspberry Pi and a touchscreen for less than $150.
I had streamers on my buzz bike when I was a kid.
If he Audio enthusiast population was one percent… Do the math. It’s a quite large number of people that purchase audio components. Then consider how many new audio manufacturers have opened up in the past couple of years. Somebody’s got to be making money large amounts of money in this industry.
Just use android TV box and connect the USB out to external DAC.
If you want a good streamer that is future proof buy a Linn streamer
I’m male and I love my long streamer.
Cmon, not that small of a market. Everyone and their grandma has a wiim streamer😊. Buy a wiim pro, a good dac and you be cruising. If you want a pure transport maybe the volumio rivo.
Ifi Zen stream
Apple Music lossless and hires lossless
Pretty much everyone in the community would agree on the correct direction to head this guy in = chi-fi
- for anyone just starting out on streaming , Grab yourself a wiim pro plus & as someone else mentioned you have the option to try different dacs with these 'all in ones' if you wish..the new smsl d-6s for a couple hundred seems like a very good option for starting out as far as recent releases go...when it becomes obsolete ..youve long had your moneys worth.
Paul seems to nonchalantly mention (and stumble on their names) several chi-fi based products in his videos over the last year or so but i cant help but feel , he actually knows far more than he lets on (maybe hes nervous of the impact they are having and direction they are streering the industry in?). Surely hes got too much skin in the game to not keep up with whats going on in his industry, he will have significant knowledge of all of the products making waves - be it names (eversolo/wiim/fosi..to mention a few) and models (dmp-a6/pro plus / v3 (mono!?) And exactly what they do and dont offer.
Paul i have a question =
What are your thoughts of the real emergence and impact ( and the ever tightening grip ) of chi-fi on the industry over the last few years?
Does it
A. Bring new people to the hobby who would otherwise be put off because of exorbitant pricing? Maybe they then eventually venture into the high end ...
Or
B. Devalues the product and threatens jobs in the Western world?
I'd be shocked if Paul replied to your comment. Most people that run TH-cam channels know better than to get into an never ending argument.
Nonsense, if you think PS Audio should be overly concerned about China and their audio products. Please tell us the facts about China's real emergence and impact. Plus, that ever tightening grip of the chi-fi industry. What are the real world numbers? Specifically, when comparing PS Audio products and the comparable Chinese audio products. Not just all chi-fi products.
China isn't going to put PS Audio out of business. China has their audio fan base (meaning money spenders.) just as PS Audio has their fan base, and many other audio brands in the world have their fan base. Are you a signed-up member on the PS Audio website? If you are then you know of the loyal fan base they have. If you're relying on this TH-cam channel's comment section then you're not getting the whole story.
Not all made in China is "budget friendly." Of course, different people have different ideas on what budget friendly is. That is always dictated by one's own budget. $50 dollars for one person or $5k for another person.
I bought a new Denafrips Terminator-Plus DAC, and we know where that was made. At the time I wanted to get away from chip based DACs. (Ironic, PS Audio now has a chip less based DAC, but not R2R.) After duties and other incidentals your looking at around 8+k usd, and that was about 3 years ago.
Since when does someone with enough money to buy "high end" buy low cost audio equipment? If one is "put off" by "exorbitant" pricing why would they change their mind about spending a lot of money? Because of a piece of low cost and possibly low quality audio product? So, you're telling us that someone that thinks in the terms of "put off" by "exorbitant" pricing is going to have a change of heart and decide to spend money on "high end" audio equipment? Kind of hard to believe, but I guess anything in this world is possible. After all, I still believe I'm going to win that 1.6 billion dollar lottery. Even though my chances are one in millions or is that billions?
I admit that I am the - so called - 99%.
Sotm sms 200
People need to be realistic. You are not going to build 50k sound for 1k. Now sometimes if get lucky with used gear maybe build a 50k system for 15k. Now in the price ranges there are brands grossly overpriced and some with good value. Some manufacturer build overseas as labor is so much cheaper there but still use high quality parts and have QC for assembly. DACS can go really high in price like MSB select and DCS Vivaldi stack. I can tell you even on a 500k system some of the flaq files with Qbuz even high res sound like crap. The recording when done was so bad even good tech can only do so much with it. I used to have SACD player from DCS (22k) and played Paul's studio reference super cd's. They were decent when I got them but some of the best Qbuz flaq files sounded dozens of times better just amazing. Part of the fun with qbuz is discovering new artists and high res files that sound great and saving the choices to build your list. If you have limited funds might want to look at a great set of audiophile quality headphones with a great streamer until budget expands more.
Really good sound is so easy and simple, but it takes effort and funds, you are absolutely right. Like everything in life, a bit of luxury mostly takes a bit more money. But it is fun turning on a system and streaming and hearing that the singer breathes, where before it was not noticed. And my personal pleasure, hearing and feeling drums, the attack and the cymbal recorded up front or more in the back, but clean, natural, open. Hearing how the bass is played, the strings touched shortly or longer and agressive. I have found Qobuz quite capable of delivering that in CD Quality files, the High Res seems to work best when the gear is less. Cheers.
Why not build a PC with a decent sound card
Depends on listening environment. If you sit at your PC to listen, then fine, but if you wanna walk around, some kind of wireless control is gonna make your experience much nicer.
@@robertdubard7959 There are plenty of ways to control PCs these days without being sat at a keyboard. Most understand TV and Hifi remote CEC, for example.
Apple TV box
I don’t find streamers hard to find… just get on Twitch 😂
I’m really sorry I just had to
Why don’t you tell people that over 75%(possible more) of the streamer is a good software application ? The hardware interface itself is very, very simple, where 90% of the circuit is a good PSU.
i want no part of streaming.
Records and CDs are the "right" ways to play music.
Great for background music. Pretty much what I use my streamer for
@@scottyo64if you need it for background music then why would you bother spending big money on it? Just get any dap with coax out and streaming apps capabilities and thats all you need. I myself have one device just like that which is fiio m11 pro but i use it for everyrhing except for streaming which i hate to the core
Yea, the difference is noticeable.
@@scottyo64 if you put the streaming part together with some care, it sounds like cd or better.
How do you feel about those horseless carriages?
It seems there are a lot of Wiim fan boys out there. Without commenting on how they sound, they have an integrated DAC. The question asked was how about a stand alone steamer? That means no DAC. So the Wiim is automatically disqualified because it does not meet the primary specification of NOT having a DAC.
All Wiims have a digital out so you bypass the included dac. Only the Wiim Pro Plus had dac worth using. I use the Wiim Pro to my own fac and couldn't be happier. The app for the Wiims is probably the best you will find.
@@b30sail The point is NOT to get stuff in your gear you do NOT want. Even if it is for free. Less is more, is the saying for a good reason. Regardless if you agree with that or not, that was what it was all about: Finding a streamer *without* a DAC.
It doesnr have a sound to them, thata the DAC opamps preamp and speakers job...@@hugobloemers4425
@@hugobloemers4425ok what do you hear thats not supposed to be there? Can you clarify that
@@tacofortgens3471 I am not talking about hearing. Here we have somebody who says, for what ever reason, "I want a streamer without a DAC". And Paul says that makes a lot of sense. The question is very easy, does the Wiim have a DAC yes or no? The answer is yes. So the Wiim is out of the question. What is there not to understand?
Here is the thing with streaming its sometimes has different sound quality with different track on cheap streamers
The implication there is that either high quality streamers "normalize" the tracks or the cheap ones are more revealing. I doubt either is true so what iyo am I missing?
Depends, On the settings you use. Has nothing to do qith cheap or expensive dacs
eversolo dmp6 👍
Streamers at present are in their infancy and are inferior to CD’s. They will probably be better eventuality in 10 - 20 years time!
Its not the streamer, I think you meam DAC's. Strwakers job is to pass 0000 and 1111q to the DAC.