@@Pazuzu- yeah thats the worst part: 20 year old hardware and we still have popular titles like Ace Combat that you can't emulate without significant bugs.
One thing to remember when it comes to the SPUs is they were made for a completely different purpose to what they were used for. When I started working on the PS3, I was in Japan, it was probably 2002 and I was splitting time between the PS3 and working on Ratchet on PS2. For the PS3 the RSX wasn't in the picture for maybe another year or so. The original PS3 design had a Sony designed GPU called the RS but it only did pixels, it was also kind of complicated as you had to schedule all the threads yourself. The SPUs were intended to feed the RS with transformed vertices, in a similar manner to how the PS2 worked, and if you look at how the SPU DMA works then processing vertices is an almost perfect use case. The intended design was you'd be able to do fantastically complex vertex processing, with programmable nodes for skeleton joints, because the SPUs were not just stream processors (like vertex processors still are). There was a device called the LDPCU and to this day I'm 100% sure how it worked, it had 1500 pages of documentation in Japanese and only Mark Cerny could read it. It was basically a gate keeper and synchronization system that would allow the SPUs to process and complete vertex batches out of order but still have the RS/GPU render them in order. We never really used it because we didn't know how, to got it to work from what Mark told us and by the nature of how simple our tests were - I'm pretty sure it would have a total nightmare. So what happened was the RS was too big, in silicon terms, to make and it wasn't really possible to optimize down to a reasonable size without significantly gutting it, if they gutted it then it wouldn't have competed with the XBox. At this point Sony were stuck between a rock and a hard place, they looked putting multiple cells in the console and software rendering (I actually wrote a prototype software renderer, in 100% hand paired asm, that would run across multiple SPUs - ultimately it was a proof of concept of what not to do), they look at stacking a bunch of PS2 style GPUs together to make a pseudo programmable blend stack. Ken Kutargi did not want to give up and go to Nvidia or AMD/ATI but in the end he had no choice, its a good job he did because how terrible would the PS3 have been if the SPUs were used for graphics and games had just the single PowerPC core?? Once the RSX showed up and it could do vertex processing the SPUs had no job. This is when the ICE team started looking at using the SPUs for other tasks, it was a massive exercise in data design. If you started from scratch you could design a system for physics, audio, AI, particles - whatever and it would be very fast because you could factor in the constraints of the SPU memory. However, if you started with existing code or cross platform code, then it was next to impossible to get the SPUs to do anything useful. Initially this resulted in huge variance in quality between first party and third party games. This was also the time frame when fewer and fewer studios were willing to write an engine from scratch and things like Unreal engine were getting very popular, it was UE3 at the time, and it ran like crap on the PS3 but ran awesome on the Xbox and PC. Ultimately, the negative developer feedback cut through the arrogance that was present at the time within Sony (and Ken himself) and the PS4 was intentionally designed to be PC like (and was done by Mark).
Ah! So This explains why EA, Square, Ubisoft and the other majors publishers started developing on PS3 first, then port to X360 around 2009-10. Very informative! Were the PS3 mandatory installs versus no install on x360 part of the solution to have acceptable performance on multiplatform games or was this strictly related to the blu-Ray read speed? Does the Cell have any future in the industry, if even a minor role? So many questions to ask! Thank you for this piece of information!
After the last few updates I’ve been running midnight club Los Angeles amazingly on a 12600k (rtx 2060) as well as god of war 3 and ascension. Im blown away by rpcs3.
its not done for this reason. They chose this architecture more as a gamble. If it catches on, they'd be the first to have used it and thus have an intelectual advantage. Sadly for sony it did not catch on and only became a big roadblock for future backward compatibility
@@ugolado I feel as if the reason for this widespread failure is simply that - it was too verbose. If they added some abstractions while still leaving the verbose parts of their library if needed, I think this genuinely would’ve caught on as a (potentially) popular CPU architecture
It's not so farfetched for a computer science professor to know something like that and make an offhanded joke during a lecture. CS professors are nerds just like us.
In a computer architecture class we learned about the PS3 and my professor said something basically that its complicated. First time ever I learned about a games console in school. This was back in like 2012.
@M J that's because that's exactly what it was. Developers hated the Cell and Sony started developing the PS4 in *2007* - they already knew the PS3 was hated and destined to fail (but thanks to excellent marketing and excellent games the PS3 managed to outsell the Xbox 360 by 2013) and with Ken Kutaragi (former architect of all PlayStation consoles) retired, Mark Cerny applied to be the lead designer of the PS4 in 2008 by pitching an x86-based console and got the job. Fun fact: Mark Cerny also designed the PS Vita with simple off the shelf ARM- and PowerVR-based components instead of the more complex MIPS-based components and proprietary GPU that the PSP used.
Sony only built it around the Cell BE because IBM paid them a shit load of money to do so. Sony got greedy - the PS3 itself is just a giant advertisement.
@M J AMD's APU is AMD's CELL with proper raster graphics hardware, out-of-order processing, pointer data exchange with the host CPU, memory paging with host X86 CPU, proper IEEE754-2008 support, a lot of register SRAM storage, and 'etc'. PS5 has hardware-accelerated raytracing which landed AMD as the second semi-conductor company with hardware-accelerated raytracing after NVIDIA's RTX. Where's IBM's hardware-accelerated raytracing?
@Stop! You violated the law! Of course it is a possibility, but Sony has a record of producing consoles that are jailbroken. What other companies do is not really relevant for what Sony does. Xbox does allow homebrew code to be run however, and if is the same with the new Series, how ironic would be if we see a PS3 emulator there first!
In fact, the RPCS3 itself is such a masterpiece. With the high resolution scaling turned on, it almost brings you the same experience as the PS4 remastered games but within the original title framework.
Only you explained this properly, there’s tons of videos on internet about this, saying just its hards to develop for because it has cell. Every video just says this, in one way or another. Only you were able to explain it properly with example. I felt like I learnt something. You are an exceptionally excellent person. Keep making these goood video, love from India.
It is hard to program *some* tasks to run on Cell because you need to program manually many operations that are completely automatic and transparent on general purpose CPUs, such as cache management when randomly accessing large data structures.
@@Altitudes11 MVG has a background in low level and high level emulation, and has developed for a variety of architectures over the years. If you haven't got that, you're not gonna be able to explain it to someone who knows nothing about programming. But, the answer is the same as "why did Power Mac programs run like shit on x86 macs?" and "why do x86 programs run like shit on ARM macs?" Because the way ARM, x86, and Power do things is *completely different* at a fundamental level.
@@looeegee ehhh. ARM, or rather RISC load/store architectures are perfectly capable of high performance. Alpha, SPARC, and others, ran servers for decades before their companies went bankrupt. The reason you can't play full desktop or console like games on a phone are twofold: battery, and thermal dissipation. Your gaming device uses a few hundred watts of power. Your phone's battery cannot provide a few hundred watts of power continuously. Similarly, your gaming console or PC is exhausting a couple hundred watts of heat. Your phone, while fitting in your pocket, will forever be in capable of exhausting 1/10th that much heat.
@@Hansengineering Thanks for explaining. But I do have one more question though, how does the Wii U achieve Wii bakcwards compatibility if the Wii PowerPC processor isn't present into the console itself?
You would have thought Sony would have learned from the Sega Saturn and Atari Jaguar that making a complicated hardware architecture on a console is not a good idea.
cell processor is more for communication.. when try to run port.. it look like shit compare to cheap xbox 360.... after of uncharted game and some japanese game... GTA also run well.. but the rest kind of hit or miss...
What? Can't you still play them on PS3 consoles? I don't get how having a new console be backwards compatible preserves anything, there is not a single console that has been "lost" so why are people acting as if the PS3 library is in danger of being thanos snapped from existance?
@@Glitchy1988 Okay, I don't have a PS3, nor a PS4, but my friend does have a PS4. Because Sony has not made backwards compatibility with PS3 games a priority or even considered it for the PS4, the only way either of us can play PS3 games is by getting a used PS3. Now with PCs and many Xbox games, because of the x86 architecture used in these devices (except Xbox 360, but it doesn't have a complicated CPU like the PS3 so it can be easily emulated), I can launch any piece of software from years ago and it has a very high chance of working with modern hardware flawlessly, and doesn't require a seperate obsolete piece of tech. I have run Diablo 2 on my PC, a game from the year 2000, on my PC with Windows 10 in 2020 with hardware just a few years old, but Sony can't get a few games from 2011 running on a piece of hardware from 2013. I don't want to keep a seperate, old piece of hardware around that I will rarely use when I can just play the games I want on the platform I already have.
Sony only interested at remastering shit. Emulation scene for future consoles will likely killed off by remastering trend. Sony wanted those console normies to milk in on every garbage. Meanwhile, M$ is having another opportunity to kidnap another game studio...
Homestly, I remember reading about RPCS3 years ago. It was the longest I had ever seen an emulator go only running homebrew, only to be given an update to run commercial games years later. Almost every other emulator that has years of only running homebrew, just stays stuck there. So good on the RPCS3 for breaking that curse.
I agree that the PS3 was a brilliant feat of engineering, yet still a mistake on Sony's part to use the hardware for a gaming console. The history of the Cell goes back to the earliest draft boards at Sony soon after the release of the PS2, wanting to balance price-to-performance in a way that would completely eliminate any competition and bring gaming to the next level. This proved to be difficult, missing the 2005 holidays launch window and delaying release a full year, only to face a shower of complaints from third party developers who all shouted at Sony for this absolute mind-bending and overcomplicated approach to architecture. It was the Atari Jaguar and Sega Saturn dev-challenging fiasco once again, which was the opposite of what the industry was moving towards in the 2000s, with ever easier environments for developers and ever easier game engines and dev tools to work with. Sony was still in the mentality of coding down to the metal, which no dev wanted to go back to in his or her worst nightmare when dealing with games of such complexity. The move to x86 was such a blessing, it cannot be overstated.
Games get larger and infinitely more complex as time goes on. If Sony was thinking a developer would code all the way down to metal, that's insane. There's a reason why game engines exist.
@@robertt9342 Game engines are coded down to the metal, not the games running on the engine, but the way the SPUs work, the engine has to be adjusted on a game-to-game basis, so that engine developers need to work in tandem with game developers to modify the engine individually for each game or game series.
sony were trying to be too smart with the ps3's architecture, most devs didn't even utilize the cell processor and it ultimately backfired in the long run as now they cant even do BC
But then you have games like MGS4 which completely blew the roof off and did things that simply weren't possible on any other hardware. Developers were the ones who either did or didn't take advantage of the systems true power. Devs neglecting a significant portion of the hardware because they didn't put in the effort isn't an issue for the hardware itself. The PS3 is a unique console that tried new things and when developers took advantage of that, it was spectacular.
@@BigDaddyWes MGS4, if it hadn't been specifically coded for cell and its spe's, was completely possible on PCs of the time and maybe even 360, just that Konami had not become multi-platform at that time (at least not with MGS4). The PS3's gpu was pretty weak, weaker than the 360's actually. It also didn't have a lot of ram. The cell was impressive by itself, but was gimped by the rest of the weak hardware.
TSX instruction set was actually removed from newer Intel CPUs (Probably absent since the 10th generation) due to security concerns. For a game console, designs to share memory with potential vulnerabilities might be acceptable, but it certainly was intolerable for general purpose CPUs.
Yeah, this is very important to mention that this is disabled on more modern CPUs through firmware patches(Anything newer than an i7 7700k if I recall correctly) and absent from Comet Lake(10th Gen Intel CPUs).
9th gen series was theoretically the last one to have TSX, if not removed in the BIOS. If I'm not mistaken the 9900k is still the best CPU for RPCS3, if unpatched.
@@martinantelo7086 so that's why RPCS3 runs better on my 9900K with custom microcode (to disable security fixes) running at 5ghz than on my friend's 10700K at 5.1 and stock microcode (but mitigations disabled in Windows). We also have virtually the same RAM, different vendors but both Samsung b-die 4133mhz
@@hectrmen23ify MVG made a video on the network hack and PS3 hack, both were truly wild, but especially psn hack, they were using ancient tech in their servers
They are probably afraid if they added a way to emulate ps3 games smoothly on ps5, that people would rip it off for pc, although the one they have now for ps3 is already pretty good.
@@delectableangel1986 PS5 hasn't been cracked yet and there would be no need to do that since there is a fully functional emulator for PS3 on PC already, even with network functionality.
in a few months we will see "PS5 Unboxing and review" and then another year or so afterwards we will see "Mistakes were made - How the PS5's security was defeated"
I think the best way for sony to be able to put ps3 emulation on ps5 is to partner with the Rpcs3 team. It would be a very beneficial partnership for both parties involved. The rspcs3 team get funding and possibly access to the source code which will aid them in improving the emulator and sony get an emulator and possibly a reputation bump because they're working with the community to bring ps3 gaming to their current console. It can be built into the ps5 code or used as a separate application you download from the store, either way it would be very beneficial for sony to do this and their fans would be very grateful.
I wish, but technically emulation opens up piracy and I don’t think they want even a single chance with stuff like that, even if intentions are good :/
@@comedyreliefguy5112 There would definitely be ways to fix that. You can't add you own code to a PS5 without jailbreaking so that would definitely be a problem for would be pirates out there
@@comedyreliefguy5112 oh nooo, the gamers are pirating games that went out of print a decade ago and that Sony could literally no longer be profiting from....even though if you allow them to buy the games from the PS5 store and emulate it it would be a fresh revenue stream with minimal cost because you almost don't have to modify the old codes in their repo....
@@chrismorrison5301 if someone is already willing to pirate then they would have no qualm jailbreaking their device. it would somewhat be a deterrent, for sure, but it wouldn't be an absolute barrier.
RPCS3 being "impressive" is quite an understatement. Cell is more or less a supercomputer-on-a-chip. The only real reason it is even possible to emulate it is that actual games generally underutilized the hardware. Sony's approach was both genius and really stupid at the same time - it would totally crash the competition if actually utilizing the console fully didn't also require an MIT-level team of programmers who would engineer a game like you would a spacecraft. That is not even a joke. I believe sony's best bet is to provide some sort of compatibility toolchain so that the developers could recompile their code with it and then rewrite whatever runs slowly. This of course runs into problems of lost source code and no interest in investing effort into porting more obscure games.
That's pretty accurate indeed lol,they basically build something that was not commercially viable and how it didn't take Sony down as a whole is the most impressive of all things. Contrary to what people think of Ken Kutaragi but he was not being " crazy " when he said " It's not a gaming console " " work 2 jobs " etc etc etc.This was all a *RE* calculated approach towards the engineering that went out of hand. They really didn't build this for gaming alone but a wide variety of potential industries.(although I don't understand why they compromised on RAM,in essence they tried to be a Linux box with gaming capabilities.
@@cyphaborg6598 It, combined with lower profits from home electronics in general due to general Chinese dumping and Samsung in TVs, _did_ take Sony down though. Sony was broke in 2012 and dismantled their OLED and Optiarc operations, sold Vaio and their semiconductor fabs and merged their LCD business into Japan Display, among many things. Linux on PS3 was just a way to get programmers familiarised with Cell. It was gaming machine first, make not mistake about that, but it was also a Trojan horse to spread knowledge of Cell to give that a better market position.
Sony is and always be an arrogant company. They want all their things to be proprietary. They are the OG Apple before Apple. They want an exclusive ecosystem, from memory card, media to even source code, where later they can made money via licensing. Thats why their phone are ridicolously expensive as they are in the mentality that their product is high end and whoever uses their product should pay high end price, even when its not really that great. PlayStation division was crept by these arrogancr by the time PS3 was launched because of the massive success of PS1 and PS2. Luckily for us, there is a competitor and they are forced to adapt to "normal" architrcture in PS4.
PS3 backwards compatibility would make the ps5 an instabuy for me. Especially now that that generation is getting harder to get a working, well cared for used console for.
When Cerny compared the Tempest Engine to the Cell I think he was referring to the fact neither has a cache hierarchy, they can only access memory via DMAs to a local store and registers. The Tempest Engine itself is an RDNA2 Compute Unit and works in a very different way to the Cell's SPUs.
@@trueactionchannel I would say limiting good games to stylized graphics as a bit pessimistic. I would agree that games with stylized graphics almost always age better, but that doesn't necessarily mean that games go for a realistic look are necessarily bad
@referral madness I thought that, so repurchased digitally on my super slim PS3.. No change. Maybe it just didn't like my version of system.. I had a PS3 fat 80gig backwards compatible edition, and one of the earlier PS3 super slim models I got on black friday when they first came out. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@o_KingOfKings_o about the online thing on the xbox one right? Its good to see xbox fixing all its issues, and going far and beyond with back compat, the series x can literally play Playstation 1-2 PSP PS vita, nintendo 3ds, wii , GameCube and of course the xbox 360 and even some orignal xbox games
Well, Sony is 20x better about this than Nintendo, which actually seems to PURPOSEFULLY go out of their way to throttle old games Here it seems like Sony is just not willing to put in the investment for PS3 games.
I've spent hours reading articles and watching videos about the architecture of the PS3, it was truly a fascinating machine. I often wonder what that console generation's games market would have looked like had it been easier for devs to design their games for that unique architecture, and if the way the industry looks today would be different if that had been the case.
Personally the PS3 is my favorite console of all time, all of it (good or bad) is a great peace of history. I been following RPCS3 almost from the start and i always dreamed of seeing the emulator complete, or that Sony would take that advancement on the emulator to make a good one for another console. Also i had the luck to find a CECHA01 backwards compatible almost like new last week, so im pretty happy with this video :D
@Tiger The seller said it had Thermal Grizzly kryonaut. So first to check i turned on and tried a ps2 game, it worked and then i installed multiman and in about 10 minutes it give me over 70C(75) so i disassembled the console and the thermal pads were all dry(original pads) and the paste was ok and it was kryonaut, so i need to delid the ihs of the Cell processor and replace that thermal paste. So im waiting for the correct tools to arrive to do that. In the meantime the console is off.
I am kind of sad that no one talks about the partnership between Sony, Toshiba, and Rambus to create "the broadband engine" and that blazing fast XDR memory for it's time.
People in here didn't research deep to the point that's honestly people also don't understand it.. Also i hate it when someone ps3 is run slow... the truth and reality is decent normal fps... yeah that's the truth about it.
Cell processors are still quite available on eBay, both in the form factor of the IBM QS20/21/22 blades, and as many PCIe coprocessors. Many of which run the second version of the Cell. Has anyone tried using these to run the CPU code natively on a PC? Edit: Anyone interested in this should also look into the Sony Zego servers. They were servers apparently released in late 2008 (were demoed at SIGGRAPH 2008). They were designed to encode 4K video which was very advanced for 2008. But what is interesting about them, is they were basically unlocked PS3s. The Zego had both the RSX and the CELL, and 1GB of XDR memory, and it ran linux. The fascinating thing about the Zego is that it was designed to run linux. Meaning official RSX drivers for linux almost certainly exist. They have never been leaked though.
"Sony was so preoccupied with whether or not they could develop an over complex and powerful processor, they didn't stop to think if they should" - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park.
@@riftiro4427 Rockstar said RDR1 was specially bad. As in put together awfully. They say it's a miracle the game runs as well as it does with how poorly it was put together. And that is their reason for not wanting to do a remaster, it would have to be made from the ground up. Its insain to think about the technical feat it is that a emulated PS3 can run RDR1. Crazy stuff.
@@TheDouglas717 It's the only Rockstar game I know so far that never got a PC port. I really wish they would straight-up remake RDR1 instead. At least a remake would have a chance to get ported to PC later on.
sony should just make the “playstation hits” backwards compatible and leave the last of us , god of war 3 , and etc. behind cause they already got remastered on ps4.
@@campkira And you can play them on PS now. There's a TON of backwards compatibility that is only on game pass too unless you actually own the game. Neither platform has perfect backwards compatibility. You can play every Xbox One game on Series X and S, and every PS4 game on PS5/PS5 Digital. But you can't play every 360 and original Xbox game on XB1/Series X either. PS now and game pass is probably the way to go for either system for a long time.
@@zerosolis6664 PS Now doesn't count, all game streaming has been, is currently, and always will be a total failure due to input latency. "You can play every... PS4 game on PS5/PS5 Digital" Not even true, Sony themselves say you're wrong.
@@zerosolis6664 PS Now isn't that great when you're forced to stream. I wouldn't be too worried about PA3 emulation if PS Now allowed PS3 games to downloaded, even if it had to be done on the actual console itself, but alas only the PS4 and PS5 support PS Now downloads
@@zerosolis6664 but there's a huge difference. You can play lots of OG Xbox and 360 games on newer models, they do emulation (albeit it costing a bit of storage). It's certainly possible (especially when the X360's PowerPC based CPU is emulated) to emulate PS3, just Sony being Sony (ahem, anti-consumer), you can't.
I'm sure Sony could figure out how to get the PS5 to emulate PS3 games if they wanted too, the problem is that there probably wouldn't be enough people interested in playing 15 year old games (I've noticed a lot of people only care about the latest games) which is annoying as I still like PS3 games and wish their latest system could just play every Playstation game ever.
im OK with that! a renewed interest in retro games (thanks to emulators as always) is what pushed nintendo into suing emudevs for basically preservating their old games. it would be a real tragedy if the same happens to projects like rpcs3.
If you haven't tried RPCS3, don't think for a second it's a slouch. Playing Demon's Souls at 1440p and a pretty stable 60fps (with my aging PC) is a transformative experience.
@@Revolution5268 I can play Demon's Souls at 60FPS locked at 1440p (didn't try higher resolutions because I have a 1080p monitor so it's enough) on my Ryzen 5 2600X paired with 16GB of RAM at 3200MHz and a "old" RX 480 8GB (still a GPU from 2016)
@kniker yeah that pc is high end we need for low end and mid end for 60 fps.. I don't want to spent with pc high end like that... I'd rather buy laptop ROG exclusive
Don't worry, TSX is abandoned anyways :D Intel was delivering microcode updates for quite a while to remove the TSX feature being reported in CPUID because of the significant bugs TSX imposed.
@@BITCOIlN Well, they tried to fix it for a pretty long time, but solving race conditions was never easy and doing so on hardware is even harder. I must say that Im not a big fan of special instructions which only work on one product, it would be nice if they could integrate such features more generally into all CPUs which share an instruction set.
@@Ch40zz I also want this to be generally used by all so that we all can have this. Maybe not this complex but nearly easy to use and implement replica. When you listen to how it works it sounds magical but when you try to work on it, it becomes a nightmare.
@@Ch40zz Technically AMD could implement it if they want. Intel and AMD have been in a cross licencing agreement since x86-64 was created by AMD, they both share new instructions with each other for no cost. The other reason Intel is phasing TSX out and AMD doesn't have it has to do with security, there's a lot of potential exploits with using that instruction. Accessing memory that the program maybe shouldn't be
"But sadly, Ryan said that PS5 compatibility with PS3 and older Sony consoles 'has not been achieved'." Don't you worry about a thing Ryan, that's what hackers are for.
This has come on massively in the last year or so. I can run Demons Souls at 4K at a solid 30fps with no drops or crashes on a cheap SSD and a 2018 I5 9400F (Lower mid-range, 6 cores, around £150) which is incredible to me considering how difficult Ps3 emulation is and how my PC was fairly average even back when I put it together nearly 4 years ago.
I have an irrational love for how byzantine the PS3 is. It's the closest we've come to "alien tech" inside a mainsteam games console. For whatever reason I still think there's untapped potential buried deep within, even though I'm fairly certain no developer will ever put themselves through the stress to find out.
Nah, it was fully tapped by the end of its life cycle. The Last of Us used as much of the SPU's as it could, and if it could have looked significantly better the laws of physics should have been broken.
@@monteraid because it would be jank I should clarify: because the systems use different hardware, each instruction would have to be translated to and from both systems (unless you're gonna put each previous processor on the board like how the PS2 and PS3 did, which instead would add enough cost to make it less than affordable). It adds a lot of overhead. You need a crazy powerful computer to emulate stuff. Hell, accurate SNES emulation wants around 3ghz to run well. I can barely maintain 60fps in Skate 3 on my Ryzen 5 3600 and RX 580.
SullySadface oh so you don’t know about the emulators that could run PS3 games on PC with no problems! a PC that has far weaker specs than the PS5! Very interested to know what you have to say about it!
It’s very clear today that emulation is 100% legal. Just as it is legal to buy non Ford windshield wipers for your Ford or putting Pepsi in a Coca-Cola glass. It is illegal to distribute game copies and BIOS copies, but that’s not done by the emulator developers.
RPSC3 is open source. They can legally put it in the PS5. Note, that if it wasn't the RPSC3 team could sue Sony for stealing their property. Emulators are not illegal.
it was important that it be tried, however. A lot was learned from the Cell Processor. Perhaps in the future when & if game development techniques can more easily parallelize, it will make good sense.
It was an odd choice for a gaming console even though I loved my PS3. Worked much better in the other devices it was utilised in, which are far more niche and can efficiently be built around the architecture.
Nice technical explanation. The challenges of this system were pretty apparent. Quad-word data containers and asynchronous event management were just the the beginning of it. Loved the video!
I view the Cell architecture as a failure for the following reason: if you look at its instruction set, it's a great PS2-era 3D graphics engine with simple shading models. But if you want dynamic lighting (or more specifically, 3D global shadowing), you need tightly-coupled graphics DRAM so that you can distribute shadowing across the whole screen, and the Cell architecture's access to screen-sized frame buffers were throttled by the single PowerPC core. I speculate Sony's intent was to improve on their PS2 Graphics Synthesizer, at which Cell does a good job. I think Sony did not properly anticipate the difficulty in designing a next-generation graphics chip, and was forced to buy the technology from nVidia late in the project. As a rational game developer, I'd do all the graphics in the GPU and use the single-core, dual-threaded PowerPC to run the game. Of course, this makes it look a lot like the X360, except the latter has three cores and six threads. The talk about using Cell for AI and particle effects is a solution looking for a problem. So although Cell was useful for cheap supercomputers, it wasn't the GPU it should have been; that kind of technology takes years and billions of dollars to develop. Ask Intel.😁
the cell architecture was a marketing stunt. Looked good on paper. And they kept pushing devs to "git gud". Not everything can be run in parallel. Not everything should be parallel. Checking the wikipedia page, the general cell architecture was pretty much abandoned after the ps3 and you wont find any hardware using it.
There is no Xbox homebrew scene. Only Xbox 360 and Xbox have a homebrew scene. Unlikely the X360 can emulate the PS3, or should I say impossible. Maybe one day Xbox will be "hacked". or should I say exploited, but not anytime SOON. HyperV is very, very, secure
They want to sell you the games. I find it hilarious when people downplay backwards compatibility. You think PC gamers think this way? "Oh well I got my new GPU so no more playing games that came out last year"
We're not talking about last year, we're talking about ten years ago. Nobody is saying BC is bad for the consumer but the majority of people aren't playing games that old.
@@sirdan357 Yeah, just look at the percentage of people who took advantage of the BC with Xbox, it's not a lot. Like a very tiny percentage. I mean who's going to be saying, "HEY GUYS, LET'S GO HOME AND PLAY Clive Barker's Jericho AFTER SCHOOL! WE CAN STREAM IT ON TWITCH!!!... " ... Although I'll admit, I do play Rogue Warrior on my PS3 every so often, so I guess I could use that 16K upres on the PS7 in the near future...
@@sirdan357 Which PCs can still play those 10 year old games just fine. You really only get into issue when you start trying to play Windows XP era games, but even then there's workarounds.
@Gang Weed yes, it’s a bit of a problem for me because I live in Venezuela but at least I have some games to play, but I understand what you are saying
@Gang Weed I mean, 10 bucks a month for instant access to 800 games, where more are added every month, some are cycled out for new ones every once in a while, and being able to not stream maybe every single game isn't that bad I'd say, as you can just download the game. Though that might only work with PS4 games, not sure. At any rate, its honestly still a far better deal than the game pass, day 1 retail games or not. Game pass is $15 a month. But I feel you on the regional pricing
Very interesting video. Would be interested in seeing a video concerning why Xbox 360 emulation and why that's been so hard, since despite being a supposedly simpler architecture, it's still vastly behind the PS3's emulation.
In concept the CELL sounds like a neat idea which might work pretty well if understood But in practice it’s a confusing mess for all of the devs working on it
I am glad you made this video. There was a guy on one of your last videos who said that PC can easily emulate all consoles so a console not being backwards compatible was only a marketing trick
It's hard because Sony didn't want to implement any backwards compatibility for the PS5. Microsoft forced their hand..As a developer, anything can be coded, it just requires budget and resources.
Yeah. I think Microsoft is much better when it comes to playing your old games with new consoles. OG xbox was the first, so nothing is obviously there. Xbox 360 didn't have backwards compatibility, most likely because the OG was a big flop. Fair enough. Xbox one had compatibility with 360, which is great, and even better, Series X got really good. It had backwards compatibility with One, and since the Xbox one had compatibility with 360, it had that too! So we have One, 360, and.... The original Xbox!?!? That's right, it has compatibility with every single Xbox! OG, 360, and One. After all it's called the _Series_ X. It can play every Xbox game. However, the PS5... It can play PS4, which is nice... But then they can't emulate PS3, and even worse they couldn't emulate PS2 and PS1, which makes no sense at all!!! With the PS3, the reason was explained in this video, but all the others make no sense. Didn't the PS4 have PS2 Emulation through the store? We can just do that, considering the PS5 can play PS4, and then have the roms now be fed through the original discs. Also, PCSXe can emulate PS1, and even had and upgrade, PCSXr, which is even more accurate!!
MS is also probably able to leverage their DX software teams and teams from other divisions to assist in the development of the software stack needed to bring about BC. Sony doesn't have other software divisions it can leverage. Maybe at some point Sony can leverage its R&D into ReRAM and its fabrication facilities to bring about a cheaper higher performing SSD at some point in PS5's lifecycle, giving PS5 a leg up in SSD costs. Other than that I don't see how Sony can leverage its other divisions, other than maybe its CMOS division for a PS5 camera.
Well Sony has their PlayStation Now streaming service so they will never consider emulation, even after open source emulation has gone really far... ...then again, we are talking about Sony here so...
playstation now is horrible, it doesn’t even have most games people want to play and it’s not reliable, sony is such a joke. if i even buy a next gen console i’m switching to xbox for sure
@@alumlovescake i’m aware of that but sony is a joke at this point, it’s not worth supporting a company if they can’t keep the standards they first set
Sony is using server racks of PS3 boards for PS Now, and some day those boards will die and are no longer in production, so if they want to keep this whole PS3 game streaming going on, they must eventually consider emulation. Either that or they drop PS3 games altogether, maybe during a PS Now rebrand.
@Max Klassen sorry to say, I looked it up already and it does run at 60fps at 720p, it runs slightly lower at 1080p like in the 50's. As for the emulator it depends on your system specs
@@JayKayX71 true. runs better in lower rez. But I still prefer playing in high rez because the objects in the far distance look clearer. A certain comparison video out there shows the desert rally course drop down to the 40s. May run better with the inside view over the outside view. Still an excellent game. The inconsistent framerate ain't that bad. There is some occasional screen tearing on the background, but even that's not too bad. It's an otherwise great playing and great looking game. Seems the new physics engine taxes out the system, it was a really late release. well worth it.
Every other video about this, "Developing on cell is hard." Yeah no shit, but WHY? MVG, "Developing on cell is hard and here's exactly how it works and why it's hard."
Yeah, I've always just assumed people were exaggerating the difficulty since every other description of it just made it sound like multi-threading; non-trivial but not impossible. This is the first video I've seen that's really explained the architecture in enough detail for it to make sense why it was so difficult. I feel like you would need to build a game engine from the ground up built around the SPE's with memory and math functionality for it to work effectively.
@@ArtisChronicles I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we get a PS4 emulator in less time then it's taken to to get a PS3 emulator, just because the PS4 hardware isn't exactly exotic.
@@Triumph263 Honestly the PS4 is different from a PC. The shared memory is probably the biggest hurdle. Look at HZD and how well it scales with PCIe Bandwidth.
I would like to see a PSone collection for the PS5. It could feature: - Ape Escape - Um Jammer Lammy - Destruction Derby (with 2-screen multiplayer emulationg the original’s link cable support) - Kurushi - Jumping Flash! - Jumping Flash! 2 - Cool Boarders - Cool Boarders 2 I was trying to think up a compilation with family friendly titles, and a separate other compilation featuring mature titles.
That will probably be the case. If they can include a PS3 cpu within the system (same way PS2s was in original 599 PS3s) then it's totally possible. By then, costs should be low enough to implement that type of BC without totally jacking up price the way the PS2 chip did to the PS3.
Jim Ryan's punk ass will say "no one wants to play those old games" but bet your bottom dollar a new feature over ps4 will be the ability to buy and download ps3 games from the ps store Natively on ps5!
Only when the games become too old that anti piracy can no longer be enforced because the games are otherwise unobtainable (like the NES and SNES roms for Nintendo). At that point they'll probably release a "PS3 Mini"😉 (probably using an open source emulator again).
The thing that confuses me is at the VERY LEAST isn't PS1 & PS2 'software' emulation feasible? They practically gave themselves away with the hidden PSOne emu they had hidden in the Medieval remaster on the PS4. This is one area where Xbox definitely excels by far
Yes of course it is. But why give that to you when they can charge this a Now subscription. And I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Now subscription is all that's keeping the lights on at Sony.
Strictly on the basis of emulating the PS1 and PS2, yeah the PS4 already can. What people are asking for is to play their physical PS1/PS2 discs. The problem there is, the PS4’s disc drive actually doesn’t read CD-ROM format discs, so that factor alone makes backwards compatibility for all PS1 discs and many PS2 discs impossible. Whether Sony will bother to put CD-ROM support in the PS5’s drive still doesn’t seem to have been confirmed anywhere either.
@John Michael Go naughty dog said the Jak series was going to be playable on Ps5 and if I'm not mistaken, the Jak series on Ps4 was PS2 emulation, so it DOES work on the ps5 but they just don't care about it I guess...
PS3 is already emulates on PC. Not all games work but hey it works. They even have private servers to go online if that game is dead. Example Demon Souls PS3.
I wonder if the biggest reason is that they're trying to block unsigned code from executing. Backwards compatibility on the Wii was the thing which broke it's security. PS4 games have built in security, but I don't know how they'd be able to stop PS1 homebrew from being run
@@mrturret01 Just switch the disc while spinning🤣. It's not like they can add extra DRM to those old games so modifying a PS5 to do this will be the first attempt that will be made even though they'll probably add more checks for whether the disc is genuine. Without limiting memory privileges to an emulator it can be quite powerful. A more likely way to be able to get away with PS1 compatibility without compromising security is treating the PS1 disc as a "retail license". You'd put in the disc, the console would recognize the title+DRM and will continue to download the game from a server from Sony directly. They wouldn't even have to emulate the PS1 title in some cases as they could just run a PC version of the time (if available though everyone could see the difference) and wouldn't run the risk of running "malicious" code from the disc.
@@CheapBastard1988 That's actually a really clever idea using the disc as just a license. That could also work like a vote system for Sony to know what the most sought after titles are and port that game.
Well why would they? Makes no sense from a business side, and the system itself is pretty old and complex. Unless you'd be willing to spend double the amount of money for a console, some features aren't plausible.
@@misterbuklau4053 it would be good for business you're not wrong BUT take a look at their prospects rn. They already have a ton of business where the group that would solely buy for backwards compatibility is extremely miniscule.
This shows just how gargantuan of an effort RPCS3 is. It's one of the fastest improving emulators I've ever seen. I keep my PS3 only for exclusives and it's quickly getting to the point I can likely replace it with an emulator on my living room PC pretty soon. 5700X already runs quite a few games really well.
The playstation 2 is very hard to emulate perfectly. It still has some problems woth Growlanser III, you first get problems relating to the emulator's bios, you have to be really luck to get a proper time instead of the 0th month of the 2000th year of the 00th day 00:00(year and time makes sense but it is the other things that makes it go into a paradox and fail with its saving mechanics.
Growlanser III works very well on the original hardware. Growlanser III on emulation works fine without any save function, you need the BIOS to have a proper time and then the save function works very well.
It isn't exactly that the PS2 is hard to emulate - especially not on modern hardware - it's moreso that PCSX2 is a very old-fashioned emulator designed with an archaic plug-in architecture and with speed rather than accuracy in mind. PCSX2 didn't even emulate mipmapping in hardware until 2016 (meaning games like Ratchet & Clank were unplayable) and there was no 64-bit build of it until July of this year! There have been some other PS2 emulator projects but none of them seem to last very long such as the "Play!" emulator which seemed promising but development of that seems to have stopped in 2018, or the HPSX64 project which is in active development and includes both a PS1 and PS2 emulator but the PS2 emulator isn't very useful just yet.
Even N64 is kinda demanding nowadays with the now (almost) perfect emulator Parallel N64. However, it runs almost as good as original hardware (if you got the cpu for it).
PS2 emulation is still very hit or miss. Some games run like a champ but most of the games I try to emulate run like complete shit. Even games marked as "playable" run horribly and are filled with glitches that make the game unplayable. I think some of these emulator producers just lie to make their software look better.
@@valenrn8657 Nobody argues that newer processors are better at general computational tasks, its very specifically 32 bit vector and matrix math that the SPEs excel at
@@kittikorn6674 Yes, though they won't I believe. Since the game follows a completely different format then what their trying to make of Project DIVA now days. If PS3 games were backwards compatible it would restart and introduce people to the level creator which would be a really good thing, sadly Sony doesn't see the need for old games. I think SEGA figured out how much money they make WITHOUT a level editor so they removed it in every other entry
@@kirei5583 they dont want to do it. Nothing impossible as they have all the codes and equipments for it. They can program it to run ps3 games. But they wont
AMD never brought out their transactional mem support but Intel may as well not have bothered with TSX either. Security bugs meant it got disabled so many times Intel withdrew support entirely, nearly impossible to find a chip on Ark that mentions support for it. Looks like brute forcing it with newer and faster processors and better emulation to reduce overhead will be the key.
I think when things stabilize. they should create a PS5 “Legacy Edition”. With the cell hardware inside for full emulation. Charge more for it. Like 650 or something and create limited quantities.
Not as easy, The Cell Microprocessor has been out of production for awhile. I would doubt Sony would revive production just for a small subset of consoles. I think emulation will be a path Sony takes in the future.
I hear you. not saying they should expect this to be a big money maker. you know like a special collectors edition. i get thats its difficult, but i dont think its impossible. 15 years have passed already. a small dedicated team can probably come up with a revised cheaper cell design on a budget. for the hardcore fans.
@@HishamShoblaq cell CPU has not been made in years. To design the hardware and fabrication would be hundreds of thousands of bucks. To do it for a small niche market is insane. They are a company for profit not charity. There isn't nor would there ever be a market for such a thing. While it would be neat it isn't viable, practical or ever gonna happen 😂
As impressive as RPCS3 is, I really just want the infamous games and because they're so heavily dependent on the weird architecture of the PS3, it really sucks that they're far from ready to be emulated, a ton of progress has been made and I'm super happy about that and excited to see the progress on the infamous games but it's still a long ways off
The problem is it's application. Kutagari and Sony were quite arrogant back in those days about creating these weird platforms and expecting video game developers to burn a ton of resources to figure out how to use it like they're part of some government-funded research project with no time or budget limits. If Sony hadn't been the PowerHouse video game Market dominating force it was at the time the PS3 came out, that would have been the end of PlayStation.
The Cell CPU was quite bad for general computing. developers had to avoid using if statements like a plague for example, because it had a 40 stage pipeline and no branch prediction, which made the if statements very freaking slow.
@@dragons_red It's really Sony in it's entirety in a nutshell, not just the PlayStation division. Look at all the proprietary media and storage formats they've created over the last 40 years since Betamax was thoroughly trounced by VHS.
@@dragons_red The programmer SHOULD do everything. The only reason why it's not feasible is because of the for-profit capitalist system that forces companies to divest resources away from hiring more programmers to solve the issues. Japan SUBSIDIZES their industries and half the country's more than $60 trillion in assets is owned by the Japanese central bank.
There is also a thing to consider that just because a game can be made playable via emulation, Sony might not want make a public feature of it if it has performance issues or inconsistent performance.
Game consoles are odd: on the one hand they need very high performance but on the other they need to be super cheap to make and develop for. The IBM cell architecture comes from the mysterious world of super computers and is designed to crunch numbers. fast. you'd think: perfect for games consoles! they need fast number crunching! but a console will only survive if there is content for it and if programmers cant make games your console is just an expensive paper weight. so console manufacturers develop platforms that are very "similar" to what is out there already. this allows studios to use their talent pool to quickly turn around games to sell on new platforms. everybody wins. the sega saturn is a cautionary tail: sega took an arcade machine and put it into a home console. but arcade developers and home-market developers aren't the same and when it came to third party studios they ended up using the saturn like a genisis skipping out on all the features for a fast buck. (also the saturn was dificult to emulate as well because of its nature). this is why most modern consoles are just glorified PCs because its a platform that most programmers and therefore studios can work with.
10:09 says everything about how amazing and powerful PS3 Cell architecture still is even today, however to unlock it you need developers who can do that.
~170 GFLOPS CELL (PPE and six SPUs for PS3 games) with is not powerful when both GeForce 8800s (1st gen CUDA) and Radeon X1900 murders CELL in Fold at Home. There's a reason why CELL failed in server and HPC markets when you have NVIDIA's CUDA GpGPU murdering SPUs into oblivion. PS4's AMD APU selection has it's genesis when PC GPUs gained general compute vector math capability. The latest version for CUDA GPU is the RTX 3080/3090 (GA102) and A100 (GA100) Ampere. CUDA GPU is alive while SPU is dead.
@@valenrn8657 Very true, GPGPU massive multi parallel computing basically triumphed over complicated Cell SPUs and that's why it failed in the HPCs. Still when u compare performance per Watt with these 2 chips manufactured in the same 65 nm process u can see that Cell has 1/3 of transistors and half of the die size of the GF8800, much lower power draw where whole PS3 slim console with the 65 nm Cell has same power draw as single GF8800 card, not mentioning it was projected to run at 6 GHz with just 1.3 V (if cooled properly) which was an excellent efficiency at that time. If Cell's architecture would have been more widely adopted and dev tools improved/simplified it would become very special and highly specific gaming chip delivering amazing performance per Watt. However during the PS3 lifecycle it was pretty much clear that future of consoles will be most likely SoCs incorporating everything, most importantly GPUs and AMD "APUs" became very obvious choice for the next PS4 and future of the PS. Till this day it's quite amazing what results PS3 Cell could deliver in the PS3 if unlocked and well optimized. Cell was the very last console specific CPU Sony used in the PS before they moved with M$ to x86 AMD. Looking at where we are right now it's pretty much clear AMD APUs even much more efficient that Intel's offerings are reaching power draw/cooling limitation of the PS form factor with the PS5 (needing liquid metal, maybe needing vapor chamber in the future) while Arm based chips used by the Nintendo or customized Mx chips by the Apple are clearly wave of the future when it comes to performance per Watt as well as devs support. www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-8800-gt.c201 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_technical_specifications#Power_consumption www.techpowerup.com/25980/sony-65nm-soi-cell-broadband-engine-details
So is steam, but its managed to make itself quasi mandatory to gamers, so devs just have to live with it
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That was true to an extent, developers had to master the PS2 in order to take advantage of it, and it was all thrown away once the PS3 came out since it was a completely different design. There was no guarantee the PS4 would be similar to the PS3 in any shape or form. By 2009 IBM had already ceased development on the cell
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
This just shows how hard the rpcs3 team has worked to even manage to reach this achievement
amazing
Yup, some brilliant people. Can't even fathom how many sleepless nights it took them
The mgs 4 progress is fantastic!
Its amazing. And the funny thing is that its actually light-years ahead Playstation 2 emulators (pcsx2), which looks like crap in comparison.
@@Pazuzu- yeah thats the worst part: 20 year old hardware and we still have popular titles like Ace Combat that you can't emulate without significant bugs.
One thing to remember when it comes to the SPUs is they were made for a completely different purpose to what they were used for. When I started working on the PS3, I was in Japan, it was probably 2002 and I was splitting time between the PS3 and working on Ratchet on PS2. For the PS3 the RSX wasn't in the picture for maybe another year or so. The original PS3 design had a Sony designed GPU called the RS but it only did pixels, it was also kind of complicated as you had to schedule all the threads yourself. The SPUs were intended to feed the RS with transformed vertices, in a similar manner to how the PS2 worked, and if you look at how the SPU DMA works then processing vertices is an almost perfect use case. The intended design was you'd be able to do fantastically complex vertex processing, with programmable nodes for skeleton joints, because the SPUs were not just stream processors (like vertex processors still are). There was a device called the LDPCU and to this day I'm 100% sure how it worked, it had 1500 pages of documentation in Japanese and only Mark Cerny could read it. It was basically a gate keeper and synchronization system that would allow the SPUs to process and complete vertex batches out of order but still have the RS/GPU render them in order. We never really used it because we didn't know how, to got it to work from what Mark told us and by the nature of how simple our tests were - I'm pretty sure it would have a total nightmare. So what happened was the RS was too big, in silicon terms, to make and it wasn't really possible to optimize down to a reasonable size without significantly gutting it, if they gutted it then it wouldn't have competed with the XBox. At this point Sony were stuck between a rock and a hard place, they looked putting multiple cells in the console and software rendering (I actually wrote a prototype software renderer, in 100% hand paired asm, that would run across multiple SPUs - ultimately it was a proof of concept of what not to do), they look at stacking a bunch of PS2 style GPUs together to make a pseudo programmable blend stack. Ken Kutargi did not want to give up and go to Nvidia or AMD/ATI but in the end he had no choice, its a good job he did because how terrible would the PS3 have been if the SPUs were used for graphics and games had just the single PowerPC core?? Once the RSX showed up and it could do vertex processing the SPUs had no job. This is when the ICE team started looking at using the SPUs for other tasks, it was a massive exercise in data design. If you started from scratch you could design a system for physics, audio, AI, particles - whatever and it would be very fast because you could factor in the constraints of the SPU memory. However, if you started with existing code or cross platform code, then it was next to impossible to get the SPUs to do anything useful. Initially this resulted in huge variance in quality between first party and third party games. This was also the time frame when fewer and fewer studios were willing to write an engine from scratch and things like Unreal engine were getting very popular, it was UE3 at the time, and it ran like crap on the PS3 but ran awesome on the Xbox and PC. Ultimately, the negative developer feedback cut through the arrogance that was present at the time within Sony (and Ken himself) and the PS4 was intentionally designed to be PC like (and was done by Mark).
Mistakes were made...
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing this.
Amazing read, thanks!
Ah! So This explains why EA, Square, Ubisoft and the other majors publishers started developing on PS3 first, then port to X360 around 2009-10. Very informative!
Were the PS3 mandatory installs versus no install on x360 part of the solution to have acceptable performance on multiplatform games or was this strictly related to the blu-Ray read speed?
Does the Cell have any future in the industry, if even a minor role? So many questions to ask!
Thank you for this piece of information!
For anyone curious, as of January 21 2024, the RPCS3 compatibility list stands at 68.77% of the entire ps3 library as playable
Now it's at 69.17%
@@ratzlord3125 nice number, cant wait it to be perfect, 69,69
Yeah only thing is some of the more demanding games struggle on AMD tech your best bet is an Intel CPU and an Nvidia GPU
Playable, not optimized. Also isn't there an issue with AMD CPU's?
After the last few updates I’ve been running midnight club Los Angeles amazingly on a 12600k (rtx 2060) as well as god of war 3 and ascension. Im blown away by rpcs3.
Sony: let’s fight piracy by designing hardware that’s difficult to write anything on and make it impossible for PCs to emulate. Including us.
its not done for this reason. They chose this architecture more as a gamble. If it catches on, they'd be the first to have used it and thus have an intelectual advantage. Sadly for sony it did not catch on and only became a big roadblock for future backward compatibility
But rpcs3 doe
Its could be a big sucess if they emulate ps3
@@ugolado I feel as if the reason for this widespread failure is simply that - it was too verbose. If they added some abstractions while still leaving the verbose parts of their library if needed, I think this genuinely would’ve caught on as a (potentially) popular CPU architecture
@@JameyJoeshuaOfficial they did, I can play P5 smoothly with 60 fps 4k
I had a professor in college say, "You need a PhD in PS3 to write games for it."
Haha. You didn't tho
Top 10 things that didn’t happen.
It's not so farfetched for a computer science professor to know something like that and make an offhanded joke during a lecture. CS professors are nerds just like us.
In a computer architecture class we learned about the PS3 and my professor said something basically that its complicated. First time ever I learned about a games console in school. This was back in like 2012.
@@warmCabin this is so true. Source: I'm a fellow CS student
So basically, Sony did a Sega Saturn
And they did it TWICE.
The PS2 AND the PS3 BOTH suffer from this same kind of overly complex BS
@@AstralPhnx lmao
Yeah
lol
They did twice because ps2 worked well
The Cell Processor was an outstanding piece of engineering with a very unique, 'out-of-the-box' design....Was it necessary? Probably not.
@M J that's because that's exactly what it was. Developers hated the Cell and Sony started developing the PS4 in *2007* - they already knew the PS3 was hated and destined to fail (but thanks to excellent marketing and excellent games the PS3 managed to outsell the Xbox 360 by 2013) and with Ken Kutaragi (former architect of all PlayStation consoles) retired, Mark Cerny applied to be the lead designer of the PS4 in 2008 by pitching an x86-based console and got the job. Fun fact: Mark Cerny also designed the PS Vita with simple off the shelf ARM- and PowerVR-based components instead of the more complex MIPS-based components and proprietary GPU that the PSP used.
Sony only built it around the Cell BE because IBM paid them a shit load of money to do so.
Sony got greedy - the PS3 itself is just a giant advertisement.
@M J Fold at Home with Radeon X1900 murdered CELL!
@@valenrn8657 Oooooooof
@M J AMD's APU is AMD's CELL with proper raster graphics hardware, out-of-order processing, pointer data exchange with the host CPU, memory paging with host X86 CPU, proper IEEE754-2008 support, a lot of register SRAM storage, and 'etc'.
PS5 has hardware-accelerated raytracing which landed AMD as the second semi-conductor company with hardware-accelerated raytracing after NVIDIA's RTX. Where's IBM's hardware-accelerated raytracing?
Wouldn't surprise me if when the PS5 is jailbroken, we will see a port of RPCS3 running on it.
Absolutely 😏
@Stop! You violated the law! it will, don't worry.
@Stop! You violated the law! its definitely a "when" even sony knows that
@Stop! You violated the law! so far all PS have been.
@Stop! You violated the law! Of course it is a possibility, but Sony has a record of producing consoles that are jailbroken. What other companies do is not really relevant for what Sony does.
Xbox does allow homebrew code to be run however, and if is the same with the new Series, how ironic would be if we see a PS3 emulator there first!
In fact, the RPCS3 itself is such a masterpiece. With the high resolution scaling turned on, it almost brings you the same experience as the PS4 remastered games but within the original title framework.
It's that so? So you're telling me Shadow of the Colossus Remaster looks close to the RPCS3 version?
@@evilformerlys4704 wasn’t shadow of the colossus a remake?
Rpcs3 games also run better than the ps3 games. I can get up to 144 fps on skate 3 in certain areas of the game.
I tell ya, persona 5 on pc is amazing
Very true, shit looks awesome on a 4k monitor on the games that are playable.
Only you explained this properly, there’s tons of videos on internet about this, saying just its hards to develop for because it has cell. Every video just says this, in one way or another.
Only you were able to explain it properly with example. I felt like I learnt something. You are an exceptionally excellent person. Keep making these goood video, love from India.
It is hard to program *some* tasks to run on Cell because you need to program manually many operations that are completely automatic and transparent on general purpose CPUs, such as cache management when randomly accessing large data structures.
@@Altitudes11 MVG has a background in low level and high level emulation, and has developed for a variety of architectures over the years. If you haven't got that, you're not gonna be able to explain it to someone who knows nothing about programming.
But, the answer is the same as "why did Power Mac programs run like shit on x86 macs?" and "why do x86 programs run like shit on ARM macs?" Because the way ARM, x86, and Power do things is *completely different* at a fundamental level.
@@Hansengineering Well, that perfectly explains why we arent able to play PC-like games on Mobile cpus
@@looeegee ehhh. ARM, or rather RISC load/store architectures are perfectly capable of high performance. Alpha, SPARC, and others, ran servers for decades before their companies went bankrupt. The reason you can't play full desktop or console like games on a phone are twofold: battery, and thermal dissipation. Your gaming device uses a few hundred watts of power. Your phone's battery cannot provide a few hundred watts of power continuously. Similarly, your gaming console or PC is exhausting a couple hundred watts of heat. Your phone, while fitting in your pocket, will forever be in capable of exhausting 1/10th that much heat.
@@Hansengineering Thanks for explaining. But I do have one more question though, how does the Wii U achieve Wii bakcwards compatibility if the Wii PowerPC processor isn't present into the console itself?
Sony PS3: Let's be a powerful system, but complicate in making games.
Sega Saturn: Aaaaaah memories
I always tought the PS3 was overpowered because bad optimization
Atari Jaguar: I know, right?
You would have thought Sony would have learned from the Sega Saturn and Atari Jaguar that making a complicated hardware architecture on a console is not a good idea.
SNES: Guys, you left me behind. You know with my 3.58 mhz CPU, it takes a while to catch up!
cell processor is more for communication.. when try to run port.. it look like shit compare to cheap xbox 360.... after of uncharted game and some japanese game... GTA also run well.. but the rest kind of hit or miss...
RPCS3 is our only hope at preserving this amazing generation.. Sony has ZERO interest in it, clearly.
What? Can't you still play them on PS3 consoles? I don't get how having a new console be backwards compatible preserves anything, there is not a single console that has been "lost" so why are people acting as if the PS3 library is in danger of being thanos snapped from existance?
@@Glitchy1988 Okay, I don't have a PS3, nor a PS4, but my friend does have a PS4. Because Sony has not made backwards compatibility with PS3 games a priority or even considered it for the PS4, the only way either of us can play PS3 games is by getting a used PS3. Now with PCs and many Xbox games, because of the x86 architecture used in these devices (except Xbox 360, but it doesn't have a complicated CPU like the PS3 so it can be easily emulated), I can launch any piece of software from years ago and it has a very high chance of working with modern hardware flawlessly, and doesn't require a seperate obsolete piece of tech. I have run Diablo 2 on my PC, a game from the year 2000, on my PC with Windows 10 in 2020 with hardware just a few years old, but Sony can't get a few games from 2011 running on a piece of hardware from 2013. I don't want to keep a seperate, old piece of hardware around that I will rarely use when I can just play the games I want on the platform I already have.
@Rusty that’s not the point dude
Sony only interested at remastering shit. Emulation scene for future consoles will likely killed off by remastering trend. Sony wanted those console normies to milk in on every garbage.
Meanwhile, M$ is having another opportunity to kidnap another game studio...
@@Glitchy1988 Bruh try finding a original, decent, DS or Gameboy advance without a custom firmware that isn't overpriced like a brand new console.
Homestly, I remember reading about RPCS3 years ago. It was the longest I had ever seen an emulator go only running homebrew, only to be given an update to run commercial games years later. Almost every other emulator that has years of only running homebrew, just stays stuck there. So good on the RPCS3 for breaking that curse.
There was original xbox emulation was stuck a long long time, for many good and silly reasons.
MAME has been stuck in the PS1 age for 20 years.
So nice being able to play demon souls at 60fps now on that emulator WITH online play for both console and on pc emulator.
@@casedistorted with what pc I have the best pc possible as I heard rpsc3 cant make use of anything more then my hardware and I get 20 fps at 720p
@@alumlovescake "I have the best pc possible." Tell us the specs then
I agree that the PS3 was a brilliant feat of engineering, yet still a mistake on Sony's part to use the hardware for a gaming console.
The history of the Cell goes back to the earliest draft boards at Sony soon after the release of the PS2, wanting to balance price-to-performance in a way that would completely eliminate any competition and bring gaming to the next level. This proved to be difficult, missing the 2005 holidays launch window and delaying release a full year, only to face a shower of complaints from third party developers who all shouted at Sony for this absolute mind-bending and overcomplicated approach to architecture. It was the Atari Jaguar and Sega Saturn dev-challenging fiasco once again, which was the opposite of what the industry was moving towards in the 2000s, with ever easier environments for developers and ever easier game engines and dev tools to work with. Sony was still in the mentality of coding down to the metal, which no dev wanted to go back to in his or her worst nightmare when dealing with games of such complexity.
The move to x86 was such a blessing, it cannot be overstated.
That's why Mark cerny wanted to move to x86 not as complex easy to develop for
Games get larger and infinitely more complex as time goes on. If Sony was thinking a developer would code all the way down to metal, that's insane. There's a reason why game engines exist.
@@robertt9342 Game engines are coded down to the metal, not the games running on the engine, but the way the SPUs work, the engine has to be adjusted on a game-to-game basis, so that engine developers need to work in tandem with game developers to modify the engine individually for each game or game series.
Cell B.E. was not hard to program, just very different, SPUrs and Mars are the roots to OpenCL, and the concept of them still lives on.
CELL's PPE in-order processing with dual instruction issue is like Atom's Bonnell microarchitecture's in-order processing with dual instruction issue.
sony were trying to be too smart with the ps3's architecture, most devs didn't even utilize the cell processor and it ultimately backfired in the long run as now they cant even do BC
Honestly backfired at the time as well, majority of 3rd party games ran better on 360 and everyone knew it
But then you have games like MGS4 which completely blew the roof off and did things that simply weren't possible on any other hardware. Developers were the ones who either did or didn't take advantage of the systems true power. Devs neglecting a significant portion of the hardware because they didn't put in the effort isn't an issue for the hardware itself. The PS3 is a unique console that tried new things and when developers took advantage of that, it was spectacular.
@@BigDaddyWes exactly
@@BigDaddyWes MGS4, if it hadn't been specifically coded for cell and its spe's, was completely possible on PCs of the time and maybe even 360, just that Konami had not become multi-platform at that time (at least not with MGS4). The PS3's gpu was pretty weak, weaker than the 360's actually. It also didn't have a lot of ram. The cell was impressive by itself, but was gimped by the rest of the weak hardware.
@@BigDaddyWes en hardware la ps3 es mucho mejor x360 solo q los desarrolladores de juegos no lo explotaron
TSX instruction set was actually removed from newer Intel CPUs (Probably absent since the 10th generation) due to security concerns. For a game console, designs to share memory with potential vulnerabilities might be acceptable, but it certainly was intolerable for general purpose CPUs.
Yeah, this is very important to mention that this is disabled on more modern CPUs through firmware patches(Anything newer than an i7 7700k if I recall correctly) and absent from Comet Lake(10th Gen Intel CPUs).
9th gen series was theoretically the last one to have TSX, if not removed in the BIOS. If I'm not mistaken the 9900k is still the best CPU for RPCS3, if unpatched.
@@martinantelo7086 That's true if unpatched, and if you crank up the clocks and memory speed to absurd levels.
oh well.... they used whatever exist at the time...
@@martinantelo7086 so that's why RPCS3 runs better on my 9900K with custom microcode (to disable security fixes) running at 5ghz than on my friend's 10700K at 5.1 and stock microcode (but mitigations disabled in Windows). We also have virtually the same RAM, different vendors but both Samsung b-die 4133mhz
Sony: The software is so secure not even we can figure it out!
Didnt they get hacked multiple times tho 😂😂 ps3 era was wild
@@hectrmen23ify MVG made a video on the network hack and PS3 hack, both were truly wild, but especially psn hack, they were using ancient tech in their servers
They are probably afraid if they added a way to emulate ps3 games smoothly on ps5, that people would rip it off for pc, although the one they have now for ps3 is already pretty good.
Geohotz: "Hold my code"
@@delectableangel1986 PS5 hasn't been cracked yet and there would be no need to do that since there is a fully functional emulator for PS3 on PC already, even with network functionality.
in conclusion: sony needs to hire rpcs3 dev team LOL.
It's not necessary if they want they could build it much faster and accurate
@@iremiabliss rpcs3 Is a pretty good emulator I play most games on 4k with reshade, you dont need a PS5 or SX for BC.
@@Adkatka is not bcs they don't want to make it but decided not to, i don't understand their decision
@@Morenob1 i agree and i admire their work
Nah it can't even play RDR1.
"The Sony PlayStation 3 is either a marvel in engineering, or a horrible mistake, depending on who you talk to."
Por que no los dos?
Lo se, verdad?
Both..
a big mistake
It's a horrible marvel of engineering mistake
@@ulti-mantis Indeed, terrible and terrific both have the same root... :D
in a few months we will see "PS5 Unboxing and review" and then another year or so afterwards we will see "Mistakes were made - How the PS5's security was defeated"
Yes lets keep telling the future as if the same thing will happen no matter what.
Sarcasm btw.
Fingers crossed
@@iamlucidess It's a joke, chill.
nah it'll be articles about how the liquid metal is leaking onto the mobo and shorting it
I sure as shit hope at least PS4 would be defeated
I think the best way for sony to be able to put ps3 emulation on ps5 is to partner with the Rpcs3 team. It would be a very beneficial partnership for both parties involved. The rspcs3 team get funding and possibly access to the source code which will aid them in improving the emulator and sony get an emulator and possibly a reputation bump because they're working with the community to bring ps3 gaming to their current console. It can be built into the ps5 code or used as a separate application you download from the store, either way it would be very beneficial for sony to do this and their fans would be very grateful.
I hope so
I wish, but technically emulation opens up piracy and I don’t think they want even a single chance with stuff like that, even if intentions are good :/
@@comedyreliefguy5112 There would definitely be ways to fix that. You can't add you own code to a PS5 without jailbreaking so that would definitely be a problem for would be pirates out there
@@comedyreliefguy5112 oh nooo, the gamers are pirating games that went out of print a decade ago and that Sony could literally no longer be profiting from....even though if you allow them to buy the games from the PS5 store and emulate it it would be a fresh revenue stream with minimal cost because you almost don't have to modify the old codes in their repo....
@@chrismorrison5301 if someone is already willing to pirate then they would have no qualm jailbreaking their device. it would somewhat be a deterrent, for sure, but it wouldn't be an absolute barrier.
RPCS3 being "impressive" is quite an understatement.
Cell is more or less a supercomputer-on-a-chip.
The only real reason it is even possible to emulate it is that actual games generally underutilized the hardware.
Sony's approach was both genius and really stupid at the same time - it would totally crash the competition if actually utilizing the console fully didn't also require an MIT-level team of programmers who would engineer a game like you would a spacecraft. That is not even a joke.
I believe sony's best bet is to provide some sort of compatibility toolchain so that the developers could recompile their code with it and then rewrite whatever runs slowly. This of course runs into problems of lost source code and no interest in investing effort into porting more obscure games.
That's pretty accurate indeed lol,they basically build something that was not commercially viable and how it didn't take Sony down as a whole is the most impressive of all things.
Contrary to what people think of Ken Kutaragi but he was not being " crazy " when he said " It's not a gaming console "
" work 2 jobs " etc etc etc.This was all a *RE* calculated approach towards the engineering that went out of hand.
They really didn't build this for gaming alone but a wide variety of potential industries.(although I don't understand why they compromised on RAM,in essence they tried to be a Linux box with gaming capabilities.
@@cyphaborg6598 It, combined with lower profits from home electronics in general due to general Chinese dumping and Samsung in TVs, _did_ take Sony down though. Sony was broke in 2012 and dismantled their OLED and Optiarc operations, sold Vaio and their semiconductor fabs and merged their LCD business into Japan Display, among many things. Linux on PS3 was just a way to get programmers familiarised with Cell. It was gaming machine first, make not mistake about that, but it was also a Trojan horse to spread knowledge of Cell to give that a better market position.
Would've been easier, if they've done any sort of low-level API, i think
Sony is and always be an arrogant company. They want all their things to be proprietary. They are the OG Apple before Apple. They want an exclusive ecosystem, from memory card, media to even source code, where later they can made money via licensing. Thats why their phone are ridicolously expensive as they are in the mentality that their product is high end and whoever uses their product should pay high end price, even when its not really that great. PlayStation division was crept by these arrogancr by the time PS3 was launched because of the massive success of PS1 and PS2. Luckily for us, there is a competitor and they are forced to adapt to "normal" architrcture in PS4.
lol my ass
PS3 backwards compatibility would make the ps5 an instabuy for me. Especially now that that generation is getting harder to get a working, well cared for used console for.
i got mine for free, but had to replace the disc drive. its a nightmare.
Last year I bought PS3 it's working fine
Getting a working condition PS1 and 2 is so tough
@@ps-lover8380they're at least easy to emulate. Especially ps1
@@ps-lover8380They're not that hard to find, although you do have to know the model numbers and the pros and cons of each
They just accidentally released the supercomputer they were working on and went " just roll with it guys "
What
@@mrdesmit6038 yeah, cuse ps3 was a basically a supercomputer on form of console.
CELL actually a supercomputer CPU and xbox 360 cpu are Server CPU.
@@n3xt214 yup, i remember someone buying a shit load of them, using other os and literally making a supercomputer out of it
When Cerny compared the Tempest Engine to the Cell I think he was referring to the fact neither has a cache hierarchy, they can only access memory via DMAs to a local store and registers. The Tempest Engine itself is an RDNA2 Compute Unit and works in a very different way to the Cell's SPUs.
Cuz they want us to rebuy it again
@@virgenfj pretty much
AMD's normal CU design has both LDS (local data store) and cache hierarchy, but the cache hierarchy can be removed.
Basically it is a dedicated CU that provides guaranteed latency?
@@noop9k PS5's DSP looks like a cutdown CU without the graphics hardware. AMD's TrueAudio Next doesn't need the graphics hardware.
Puppeteer is incredibly technically impressive to this day.
Because its stylised (as all good games are) and not muh realism bs.
I could never get it to run on my PS3 fat and super slim models.. It kept freezing at the menu. 😭😭😭
So I never knew how good it was..
@@trueactionchannel I would say limiting good games to stylized graphics as a bit pessimistic. I would agree that games with stylized graphics almost always age better, but that doesn't necessarily mean that games go for a realistic look are necessarily bad
@@graphicsgod You need to change your thermal paste man.
@referral madness I thought that, so repurchased digitally on my super slim PS3.. No change. Maybe it just didn't like my version of system.. I had a PS3 fat 80gig backwards compatible edition, and one of the earlier PS3 super slim models I got on black friday when they first came out. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
“Y’all want my old shit? Buy my old console” - Sony 2020
*(x) doubt*
With old PlayStations sold used and servers having been shut down, Sony doesn't make a dime on you getting an old PlayStation.
That’s sound like someone from Xbox one e3 2013 😂😂😂
@@o_KingOfKings_o about the online thing on the xbox one right?
Its good to see xbox fixing all its issues, and going far and beyond with back compat, the series x can literally play Playstation 1-2 PSP PS vita, nintendo 3ds, wii , GameCube and of course the xbox 360 and even some orignal xbox games
Well, Sony is 20x better about this than Nintendo, which actually seems to PURPOSEFULLY go out of their way to throttle old games
Here it seems like Sony is just not willing to put in the investment for PS3 games.
Well, now not even buying the old console is enough, with a discontinued online store, you have to either jalbreak your ps3 or buy physical games.
I've spent hours reading articles and watching videos about the architecture of the PS3, it was truly a fascinating machine. I often wonder what that console generation's games market would have looked like had it been easier for devs to design their games for that unique architecture, and if the way the industry looks today would be different if that had been the case.
Personally the PS3 is my favorite console of all time, all of it (good or bad) is a great peace of history. I been following RPCS3 almost from the start and i always dreamed of seeing the emulator complete, or that Sony would take that advancement on the emulator to make a good one for another console. Also i had the luck to find a CECHA01 backwards compatible almost like new last week, so im pretty happy with this video :D
ps3 game are all godd and a foundation of all next gen game for both ps4 and ps5...
All gamers should certainly have a modded ps3 in their collection. It may not be the greatest console of all time, but it's right up there
@Tiger The seller said it had Thermal Grizzly kryonaut. So first to check i turned on and tried a ps2 game, it worked and then i installed multiman and in about 10 minutes it give me over 70C(75) so i disassembled the console and the thermal pads were all dry(original pads) and the paste was ok and it was kryonaut, so i need to delid the ihs of the Cell processor and replace that thermal paste. So im waiting for the correct tools to arrive to do that. In the meantime the console is off.
I am kind of sad that no one talks about the partnership between Sony, Toshiba, and Rambus to create "the broadband engine" and that blazing fast XDR memory for it's time.
People in here didn't research deep to the point that's honestly people also don't understand it.. Also i hate it when someone ps3 is run slow... the truth and reality is decent normal fps... yeah that's the truth about it.
I miss Toshiba.
Partership was with Sony/Toshiba & IBM(created Cell: The Broadband Engine). Rambus just made the XDR memory that Sony used in PS3
Cell processors are still quite available on eBay, both in the form factor of the IBM QS20/21/22 blades, and as many PCIe coprocessors. Many of which run the second version of the Cell. Has anyone tried using these to run the CPU code natively on a PC?
Edit: Anyone interested in this should also look into the Sony Zego servers. They were servers apparently released in late 2008 (were demoed at SIGGRAPH 2008). They were designed to encode 4K video which was very advanced for 2008. But what is interesting about them, is they were basically unlocked PS3s. The Zego had both the RSX and the CELL, and 1GB of XDR memory, and it ran linux.
The fascinating thing about the Zego is that it was designed to run linux. Meaning official RSX drivers for linux almost certainly exist. They have never been leaked though.
I had some friends that used a cell engine, and some software to create a ps3 back in the day.
@@RNA0ROGER need more info on this!
@@MegamanEXEv2 Yes, please!
That's not the point of emulation.
Since this is PCIe, it wouldn't be too hard to get it fit into even an M.2 slot, making it an upgrade option for the PS5.
"Sony was so preoccupied with whether or not they could develop an over complex and powerful processor, they didn't stop to think if they should"
- Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park.
well it was not done by sony... it was IBM...which also sell lower spec to mircosolf...
@@campkira ....also, Microsoft.
Sony don't give a shit they withdraw all its xperia line in Australia bad move even though Sony at fault for not adding that slash prices makes sales
Emulation finds a way.
The SPUs aren't even that fast...
some games like rdr 1 work only by magic, even the developers don't know how the game works
Like everything in programming lmao
@@riftiro4427 Rockstar said RDR1 was specially bad. As in put together awfully. They say it's a miracle the game runs as well as it does with how poorly it was put together. And that is their reason for not wanting to do a remaster, it would have to be made from the ground up.
Its insain to think about the technical feat it is that a emulated PS3 can run RDR1. Crazy stuff.
@@TheDouglas717 It's the only Rockstar game I know so far that never got a PC port. I really wish they would straight-up remake RDR1 instead. At least a remake would have a chance to get ported to PC later on.
@@emperorfaiz I just hope they keep the same gameplay style of rdr1 instead of the chore that is rdr2
@@TheDouglas717 wait wouldn't they be able to base the rdr1 remaster on rdr2?
The modding community needs to step up and make hardware hacks that can extend the life of actual PS3 units.
indeed
any piece of hardware will eventually meet its end.
@@kanuh Shush.
Lol, at this point I own 7 now. 4 launch models, 2 dev kits and 1 slim test kit.
@@robertvuitton Why you flexxing? :(
sony should just make the “playstation hits” backwards compatible and leave the last of us , god of war 3 , and etc. behind cause they already got remastered on ps4.
all good god of war are in ps3...
@@campkira And you can play them on PS now. There's a TON of backwards compatibility that is only on game pass too unless you actually own the game. Neither platform has perfect backwards compatibility. You can play every Xbox One game on Series X and S, and every PS4 game on PS5/PS5 Digital. But you can't play every 360 and original Xbox game on XB1/Series X either. PS now and game pass is probably the way to go for either system for a long time.
@@zerosolis6664 PS Now doesn't count, all game streaming has been, is currently, and always will be a total failure due to input latency.
"You can play every... PS4 game on PS5/PS5 Digital"
Not even true, Sony themselves say you're wrong.
@@zerosolis6664 PS Now isn't that great when you're forced to stream. I wouldn't be too worried about PA3 emulation if PS Now allowed PS3 games to downloaded, even if it had to be done on the actual console itself, but alas only the PS4 and PS5 support PS Now downloads
@@zerosolis6664 but there's a huge difference. You can play lots of OG Xbox and 360 games on newer models, they do emulation (albeit it costing a bit of storage). It's certainly possible (especially when the X360's PowerPC based CPU is emulated) to emulate PS3, just Sony being Sony (ahem, anti-consumer), you can't.
I'm sure Sony could figure out how to get the PS5 to emulate PS3 games if they wanted too, the problem is that there probably wouldn't be enough people interested in playing 15 year old games (I've noticed a lot of people only care about the latest games) which is annoying as I still like PS3 games and wish their latest system could just play every Playstation game ever.
im OK with that! a renewed interest in retro games (thanks to emulators as always) is what pushed nintendo into suing emudevs for basically preservating their old games.
it would be a real tragedy if the same happens to projects like rpcs3.
If you haven't tried RPCS3, don't think for a second it's a slouch. Playing Demon's Souls at 1440p and a pretty stable 60fps (with my aging PC) is a transformative experience.
I tried but my computer is slow as hell I tried to run demon souls it run at 3fps lol
@@m0a139 What did you try it on, an old laptop?
What specs do you need to run rpcs3 emulator? Thinking of trying on a 2017 gaming laptop.
@@Revolution5268 I can play Demon's Souls at 60FPS locked at 1440p (didn't try higher resolutions because I have a 1080p monitor so it's enough) on my Ryzen 5 2600X paired with 16GB of RAM at 3200MHz and a "old" RX 480 8GB (still a GPU from 2016)
@kniker yeah that pc is high end we need for low end and mid end for 60 fps.. I don't want to spent with pc high end like that... I'd rather buy laptop ROG exclusive
Don't worry, TSX is abandoned anyways :D
Intel was delivering microcode updates for quite a while to remove the TSX feature being reported in CPUID because of the significant bugs TSX imposed.
And why that's good? I'd rather prefer if they fixed it.
@@BITCOIlN Well, they tried to fix it for a pretty long time, but solving race conditions was never easy and doing so on hardware is even harder.
I must say that Im not a big fan of special instructions which only work on one product, it would be nice if they could integrate such features more generally into all CPUs which share an instruction set.
@@Ch40zz I also want this to be generally used by all so that we all can have this. Maybe not this complex but nearly easy to use and implement replica. When you listen to how it works it sounds magical but when you try to work on it, it becomes a nightmare.
@@Ch40zz Technically AMD could implement it if they want. Intel and AMD have been in a cross licencing agreement since x86-64 was created by AMD, they both share new instructions with each other for no cost.
The other reason Intel is phasing TSX out and AMD doesn't have it has to do with security, there's a lot of potential exploits with using that instruction. Accessing memory that the program maybe shouldn't be
"But sadly, Ryan said that PS5 compatibility with PS3 and older Sony consoles 'has not been achieved'."
Don't you worry about a thing Ryan, that's what hackers are for.
ryan just dont like bc
Funny thing is the Series X can actually play Playstation 1-2 and PSP
@@ca9inec0mic58 lmaaaao
Maybe they shouldn't have used an alien cyborg brain from the future as the CPU.
when you put it that way, all they need to do is hire John Carmack to write the emulator.
@@youmukonpaku3168 So I can finally play Demon's Souls on a Raspberry Pi without dropping frames.
This has come on massively in the last year or so. I can run Demons Souls at 4K at a solid 30fps with no drops or crashes on a cheap SSD and a 2018 I5 9400F (Lower mid-range, 6 cores, around £150) which is incredible to me considering how difficult Ps3 emulation is and how my PC was fairly average even back when I put it together nearly 4 years ago.
I have an irrational love for how byzantine the PS3 is. It's the closest we've come to "alien tech" inside a mainsteam games console. For whatever reason I still think there's untapped potential buried deep within, even though I'm fairly certain no developer will ever put themselves through the stress to find out.
Nah, it was fully tapped by the end of its life cycle. The Last of Us used as much of the SPU's as it could, and if it could have looked significantly better the laws of physics should have been broken.
Luckily original hardware is dirt cheap and super easy to mod. Pop in a big HDD, slap Rebug on it and you're good to go.
1tb the best with react psn and back up an entire collection or as a pkg and walla
Very true tbh, though ignore the phats. I got one for that sexy Emotion chip and it died pretty soon after despite cleaning it and repasting it.
That doesn’t answer the question of why they don’t want you to play these games on the PS5
@@monteraid because it would be jank
I should clarify: because the systems use different hardware, each instruction would have to be translated to and from both systems (unless you're gonna put each previous processor on the board like how the PS2 and PS3 did, which instead would add enough cost to make it less than affordable). It adds a lot of overhead. You need a crazy powerful computer to emulate stuff. Hell, accurate SNES emulation wants around 3ghz to run well.
I can barely maintain 60fps in Skate 3 on my Ryzen 5 3600 and RX 580.
SullySadface oh so you don’t know about the emulators that could run PS3 games on PC with no problems! a PC that has far weaker specs than the PS5! Very interested to know what you have to say about it!
I regard the PS3 the same as the Sega Saturn. Needlessly overengineered.
Maybe they were tired of Microsoft eating their lunch in terms of power so they threw developer-friendliness to the wind
This is what i'm thinking right now, sega saturn mostly unsuccessful emulated system, because their complicated and hard to explain with
Same with german cars.
They're waiting for someone else to make the emulator and then call a dmca and take it for themselves
It’s very clear today that emulation is 100% legal. Just as it is legal to buy non Ford windshield wipers for your Ford or putting Pepsi in a Coca-Cola glass. It is illegal to distribute game copies and BIOS copies, but that’s not done by the emulator developers.
@@Deimos94 and with HLE emulators you don't even need BIOS or PSx dumps.
RPSC3 is open source. They can legally put it in the PS5. Note, that if it wasn't the RPSC3 team could sue Sony for stealing their property. Emulators are not illegal.
Sony Playstation 1, 2, 3, 4 and Vita are very popular for their "piracy" specially in latin américa
@@jsullivan2112 corpos and goverment doesn't care, they make the law, we live in a society jimbo
The cell processor was a marvel of engineering AND a horrible mistake.
it was important that it be tried, however. A lot was learned from the Cell Processor. Perhaps in the future when & if game development techniques can more easily parallelize, it will make good sense.
It was an odd choice for a gaming console even though I loved my PS3. Worked much better in the other devices it was utilised in, which are far more niche and can efficiently be built around the architecture.
Isn't Zen a grandchild of Cell in some way? I mean, Lisa Su worked on it back then
But not as impressive as one of the chips contained inside the Sega Saturn, which could execute 6 instructions at the same time.
Not if a.i. can optimize your human code.
Nice technical explanation.
The challenges of this system were pretty apparent.
Quad-word data containers and asynchronous event management were just the the beginning of it.
Loved the video!
@referral madness Thank you!!
I view the Cell architecture as a failure for the following reason: if you look at its instruction set, it's a great PS2-era 3D graphics engine with simple shading models. But if you want dynamic lighting (or more specifically, 3D global shadowing), you need tightly-coupled graphics DRAM so that you can distribute shadowing across the whole screen, and the Cell architecture's access to screen-sized frame buffers were throttled by the single PowerPC core.
I speculate Sony's intent was to improve on their PS2 Graphics Synthesizer, at which Cell does a good job. I think Sony did not properly anticipate the difficulty in designing a next-generation graphics chip, and was forced to buy the technology from nVidia late in the project.
As a rational game developer, I'd do all the graphics in the GPU and use the single-core, dual-threaded PowerPC to run the game. Of course, this makes it look a lot like the X360, except the latter has three cores and six threads. The talk about using Cell for AI and particle effects is a solution looking for a problem.
So although Cell was useful for cheap supercomputers, it wasn't the GPU it should have been; that kind of technology takes years and billions of dollars to develop. Ask Intel.😁
I am probably in the insane minority, but that Axelay soundtrack... props dude, very cool, a man of culture as well.
the cell architecture was a marketing stunt. Looked good on paper. And they kept pushing devs to "git gud". Not everything can be run in parallel. Not everything should be parallel.
Checking the wikipedia page, the general cell architecture was pretty much abandoned after the ps3 and you wont find any hardware using it.
It will be funny if the Xbox homebrew scene eventually achieves the Series X to emulate the ps3 xD
Ironic
There is no Xbox homebrew scene. Only Xbox 360 and Xbox have a homebrew scene. Unlikely the X360 can emulate the PS3, or should I say impossible.
Maybe one day Xbox will be "hacked". or should I say exploited, but not anytime SOON. HyperV is very, very, secure
@@squirky787 there is, if you want to know find it in this channel
@@kirschitz64 but isn’t that basically emulation scene right
@@gamerghost001 see his video on Series S emulation under Retroarch
They want to sell you the games. I find it hilarious when people downplay backwards compatibility. You think PC gamers think this way? "Oh well I got my new GPU so no more playing games that came out last year"
We're not talking about last year, we're talking about ten years ago. Nobody is saying BC is bad for the consumer but the majority of people aren't playing games that old.
@@sirdan357 Yeah, just look at the percentage of people who took advantage of the BC with Xbox, it's not a lot. Like a very tiny percentage. I mean who's going to be saying, "HEY GUYS, LET'S GO HOME AND PLAY Clive Barker's Jericho AFTER SCHOOL! WE CAN STREAM IT ON TWITCH!!!... "
...
Although I'll admit, I do play Rogue Warrior on my PS3 every so often, so I guess I could use that 16K upres on the PS7 in the near future...
@@bobtom1495 [Citation needed]
@@sirdan357 Which PCs can still play those 10 year old games just fine. You really only get into issue when you start trying to play Windows XP era games, but even then there's workarounds.
@@bobtom1495 hey.....I loved Jericho, needs a sequel
The problem: PS Now
Preach
@Gang Weed what does ps now have of bad, except the game streaming?
@Gang Weed it’s 10 dollars for a lot of games and I haven’t seen any problem playing ps3 games via stream, but it’s my experience and my opinion.
@Gang Weed yes, it’s a bit of a problem for me because I live in Venezuela but at least I have some games to play, but I understand what you are saying
@Gang Weed I mean, 10 bucks a month for instant access to 800 games, where more are added every month, some are cycled out for new ones every once in a while, and being able to not stream maybe every single game isn't that bad I'd say, as you can just download the game. Though that might only work with PS4 games, not sure. At any rate, its honestly still a far better deal than the game pass, day 1 retail games or not. Game pass is $15 a month. But I feel you on the regional pricing
10:30
PS3_smoking_meth.gif
wait a minute, what are you doing here x)
Holy smoke. Hi
Who?
Hahahahahaha
It was in Hunter's mode
Very interesting video. Would be interested in seeing a video concerning why Xbox 360 emulation and why that's been so hard, since despite being a supposedly simpler architecture, it's still vastly behind the PS3's emulation.
In concept the CELL sounds like a neat idea which might work pretty well if understood
But in practice it’s a confusing mess for all of the devs working on it
I am glad you made this video.
There was a guy on one of your last videos who said that PC can easily emulate all consoles so a console not being backwards compatible was only a marketing trick
It's hard because Sony didn't want to implement any backwards compatibility for the PS5. Microsoft forced their hand..As a developer, anything can be coded, it just requires budget and resources.
Which Sony has plenty of.
@@muhaxiiii not as much as Microsoft, probably they prefer to invest it in other projects
This is both wrong and very stupid.
Yeah.
I think Microsoft is much better when it comes to playing your old games with new consoles.
OG xbox was the first, so nothing is obviously there.
Xbox 360 didn't have backwards compatibility, most likely because the OG was a big flop. Fair enough.
Xbox one had compatibility with 360, which is great, and even better,
Series X got really good.
It had backwards compatibility with One, and since the Xbox one had compatibility with 360, it had that too!
So we have One, 360, and....
The original Xbox!?!?
That's right, it has compatibility with every single Xbox! OG, 360, and One.
After all it's called the _Series_ X.
It can play every Xbox game.
However, the PS5...
It can play PS4, which is nice...
But then they can't emulate PS3, and even worse they couldn't emulate PS2 and PS1, which makes no sense at all!!!
With the PS3, the reason was explained in this video, but all the others make no sense.
Didn't the PS4 have PS2 Emulation through the store?
We can just do that, considering the PS5 can play PS4, and then have the roms now be fed through the original discs.
Also, PCSXe can emulate PS1, and even had and upgrade, PCSXr, which is even more accurate!!
MS is also probably able to leverage their DX software teams and teams from other divisions to assist in the development of the software stack needed to bring about BC. Sony doesn't have other software divisions it can leverage. Maybe at some point Sony can leverage its R&D into ReRAM and its fabrication facilities to bring about a cheaper higher performing SSD at some point in PS5's lifecycle, giving PS5 a leg up in SSD costs. Other than that I don't see how Sony can leverage its other divisions, other than maybe its CMOS division for a PS5 camera.
Well Sony has their PlayStation Now streaming service so they will never consider emulation, even after open source emulation has gone really far...
...then again, we are talking about Sony here so...
playstation now is horrible, it doesn’t even have most games people want to play and it’s not reliable, sony is such a joke. if i even buy a next gen console i’m switching to xbox for sure
@@bjornzek Dude don't forgot that if there was no PS there would be no switch or xbox
Your so stupid to play the games you need a top tier pc $1500 plus and they all run terrible and only a few games actually run
@@alumlovescake i’m aware of that but sony is a joke at this point, it’s not worth supporting a company if they can’t keep the standards they first set
Sony is using server racks of PS3 boards for PS Now, and some day those boards will die and are no longer in production, so if they want to keep this whole PS3 game streaming going on, they must eventually consider emulation.
Either that or they drop PS3 games altogether, maybe during a PS Now rebrand.
Gran Turismo 6 is such a great game. Especially if we could bump it to a solid 60fps.
The nostalgiaaaaaaa
Is it not already running at 60fps?
@@JayKayX71 Not its not, and also it took legit A FULL DAY to install
@Max Klassen sorry to say, I looked it up already and it does run at 60fps at 720p, it runs slightly lower at 1080p like in the 50's. As for the emulator it depends on your system specs
@@JayKayX71 true. runs better in lower rez. But I still prefer playing in high rez because the objects in the far distance look clearer.
A certain comparison video out there shows the desert rally course drop down to the 40s.
May run better with the inside view over the outside view.
Still an excellent game. The inconsistent framerate ain't that bad. There is some occasional screen tearing on the background, but even that's not too bad.
It's an otherwise great playing and great looking game.
Seems the new physics engine taxes out the system, it was a really late release. well worth it.
I'd just like to say that I love and appreciate being able to watch/listen to these videos while i get ready for work
Every other video about this, "Developing on cell is hard."
Yeah no shit, but WHY?
MVG, "Developing on cell is hard and here's exactly how it works and why it's hard."
port don't do well on it...need exta time to rework the code...
Yeah, I've always just assumed people were exaggerating the difficulty since every other description of it just made it sound like multi-threading; non-trivial but not impossible. This is the first video I've seen that's really explained the architecture in enough detail for it to make sense why it was so difficult. I feel like you would need to build a game engine from the ground up built around the SPE's with memory and math functionality for it to work effectively.
@@Triumph263 yeah I actually wish it was just your usual multithreading, at least then it wouldn't be such a pain to play PS3 games elsewhere.
@@ArtisChronicles I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we get a PS4 emulator in less time then it's taken to to get a PS3 emulator, just because the PS4 hardware isn't exactly exotic.
@@Triumph263 Honestly the PS4 is different from a PC. The shared memory is probably the biggest hurdle. Look at HZD and how well it scales with PCIe Bandwidth.
RPCS3 has been working very well for a year now and I've completed many PS3 games using it.
I would like to see a PSone collection for the PS5.
It could feature:
- Ape Escape
- Um Jammer Lammy
- Destruction Derby (with 2-screen multiplayer emulationg the original’s link cable support)
- Kurushi
- Jumping Flash!
- Jumping Flash! 2
- Cool Boarders
- Cool Boarders 2
I was trying to think up a compilation with family friendly titles, and a separate other compilation featuring mature titles.
@Tcb bct terrible list
Worst compilation of games ever
Nah. crash bandicoot, GTA SA or whatever was on the PlayStation, Gran Turismo 1 and 2.
This didn't age well
-someone in 2035
In #2038 Isn't Good Thou!.
...we wish.
.------.
you are very optimistic about the future my friend
That will probably be the case. If they can include a PS3 cpu within the system (same way PS2s was in original 599 PS3s) then it's totally possible. By then, costs should be low enough to implement that type of BC without totally jacking up price the way the PS2 chip did to the PS3.
At that time, we'll get Playstation 7!
This is why I'm never selling my PS3.
Emulation is better
Read about what happens when your PS3's internal battery needs to be change and Sony shuts down it's (PS3) network. Same goes for PS4.
Same
*_laughs in cbomb_*
@@nsignific what happens?
A better question is "Does Sony find it profitable enough to do it?".
Bingo.thats the ONLY issue at this point..
Jim Ryan's punk ass will say "no one wants to play those old games" but bet your bottom dollar a new feature over ps4 will be the ability to buy and download ps3 games from the ps store Natively on ps5!
That's usually the reason why BC is lacking to begin with and way too costly when licensing becomes a problem.
@@cyphaborg6598 bs.
Only when the games become too old that anti piracy can no longer be enforced because the games are otherwise unobtainable (like the NES and SNES roms for Nintendo). At that point they'll probably release a "PS3 Mini"😉 (probably using an open source emulator again).
The thing that confuses me is at the VERY LEAST isn't PS1 & PS2 'software' emulation feasible? They practically gave themselves away with the hidden PSOne emu they had hidden in the Medieval remaster on the PS4. This is one area where Xbox definitely excels by far
Yes of course it is.
But why give that to you when they can charge this a Now subscription.
And I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Now subscription is all that's keeping the lights on at Sony.
Strictly on the basis of emulating the PS1 and PS2, yeah the PS4 already can. What people are asking for is to play their physical PS1/PS2 discs. The problem there is, the PS4’s disc drive actually doesn’t read CD-ROM format discs, so that factor alone makes backwards compatibility for all PS1 discs and many PS2 discs impossible. Whether Sony will bother to put CD-ROM support in the PS5’s drive still doesn’t seem to have been confirmed anywhere either.
@John Michael Go naughty dog said the Jak series was going to be playable on Ps5 and if I'm not mistaken, the Jak series on Ps4 was PS2 emulation, so it DOES work on the ps5 but they just don't care about it I guess...
@@strykah92 the ps5 is in same boat
PS3 is already emulates on PC. Not all games work but hey it works. They even have private servers to go online if that game is dead. Example Demon Souls PS3.
Puppeter... , PS3 has such great and unique games that will never be see in another systems, that is so sad.
That's why I will always keep my ps3
I wonder if the biggest reason is that they're trying to block unsigned code from executing. Backwards compatibility on the Wii was the thing which broke it's security. PS4 games have built in security, but I don't know how they'd be able to stop PS1 homebrew from being run
Unless you have the equipment to professionally press your own bootleg ps1 discs, I highly doubt that this would be a problem.
@@mrturret01 Just switch the disc while spinning🤣. It's not like they can add extra DRM to those old games so modifying a PS5 to do this will be the first attempt that will be made even though they'll probably add more checks for whether the disc is genuine. Without limiting memory privileges to an emulator it can be quite powerful.
A more likely way to be able to get away with PS1 compatibility without compromising security is treating the PS1 disc as a "retail license". You'd put in the disc, the console would recognize the title+DRM and will continue to download the game from a server from Sony directly. They wouldn't even have to emulate the PS1 title in some cases as they could just run a PC version of the time (if available though everyone could see the difference) and wouldn't run the risk of running "malicious" code from the disc.
@@CheapBastard1988 That's actually a really clever idea using the disc as just a license. That could also work like a vote system for Sony to know what the most sought after titles are and port that game.
@@CheapBastard1988 They cured this with the sliding disc mechanism! :')
Sony should just admit that they don't want to bother themselves to emulate previous systems.
Yeah instead they act like they're God, and we're all fools for not being grateful for what they make, instead of what can be done
Well why would they? Makes no sense from a business side, and the system itself is pretty old and complex. Unless you'd be willing to spend double the amount of money for a console, some features aren't plausible.
@@Bing.Chillin I think being able to play all previous systems games on a ps5 console would be a great selling point
@@misterbuklau4053 it would be good for business you're not wrong BUT take a look at their prospects rn. They already have a ton of business where the group that would solely buy for backwards compatibility is extremely miniscule.
well they got very small cut.. plus they still love selling your old system..
This shows just how gargantuan of an effort RPCS3 is. It's one of the fastest improving emulators I've ever seen. I keep my PS3 only for exclusives and it's quickly getting to the point I can likely replace it with an emulator on my living room PC pretty soon. 5700X already runs quite a few games really well.
The playstation 2 is very hard to emulate perfectly. It still has some problems woth Growlanser III, you first get problems relating to the emulator's bios, you have to be really luck to get a proper time instead of the 0th month of the 2000th year of the 00th day 00:00(year and time makes sense but it is the other things that makes it go into a paradox and fail with its saving mechanics.
PCSX2 still can't play Driv3r after all these years, but then again it barely worked on a real PS2.
Growlanser III works very well on the original hardware. Growlanser III on emulation works fine without any save function, you need the BIOS to have a proper time and then the save function works very well.
It isn't exactly that the PS2 is hard to emulate - especially not on modern hardware - it's moreso that PCSX2 is a very old-fashioned emulator designed with an archaic plug-in architecture and with speed rather than accuracy in mind. PCSX2 didn't even emulate mipmapping in hardware until 2016 (meaning games like Ratchet & Clank were unplayable) and there was no 64-bit build of it until July of this year! There have been some other PS2 emulator projects but none of them seem to last very long such as the "Play!" emulator which seemed promising but development of that seems to have stopped in 2018, or the HPSX64 project which is in active development and includes both a PS1 and PS2 emulator but the PS2 emulator isn't very useful just yet.
Even N64 is kinda demanding nowadays with the now (almost) perfect emulator Parallel N64. However, it runs almost as good as original hardware (if you got the cpu for it).
PS2 emulation is still very hit or miss. Some games run like a champ but most of the games I try to emulate run like complete shit. Even games marked as "playable" run horribly and are filled with glitches that make the game unplayable. I think some of these emulator producers just lie to make their software look better.
RPCS3 is a technical masterpiece, but it's kinda sad MGS4 cant run at a stable 60 even on a 10900k
LOL right? need a powerful pc to play... And it doesn't cheap
That can't be right, I got 30+ on my i7-2600K on MGS4
and what does it run at on native hardware? I don't think I've ever seen MGS4 look smooth, like ever.
@@r3v0lv3rz native hardware is 720p hovering around a 30 FPS cap on ps3
Man, as an very novice computer science student these videos are extremely well done and very informative for me. I really enjoy them. Thank you
The cell is still a beast at vector math tasks because the SPEs are essentially ASICs
^This^
Interesting
@@valenrn8657 Nobody argues that newer processors are better at general computational tasks, its very specifically 32 bit vector and matrix math that the SPEs excel at
@@steffennilsen2132 Fold at Home, Radeon X1900 crushed CELL!
@@steffennilsen2132 Fold at Home, GeForce 8800 GTX murders CELL!
"konami may not be interested in a remake"
dont remind me😭
Konami... has changed
Konami? Who's that? I only know Hideo Kojima
Unless said remake is developed solely for pachinko machines!
I'm pissed, I didn't get a ps3 and I'm not planning on getting one, MGS 4 is the only title in the series I haven't played becasue of that.
I feel like Konami is purposely destroying themselves now
Let me say this
It was nearly impossible to develop for this console. Let alone anyone crazy enough to emulate it lol
@Sir Micheal Hunt I give you that, yes. Anyone dedicated enough knew what they were doing and wanted to do it right, do I applaud them for that.
I heard someone got Red Dead Redemption to work on computers and that game is a glitchy nightmare so...
RIP older Project Diva being shed in new light, I really was hoping the PS5 would have PS3 games, but I knew it was nearly impossible
It's not. If they want to make it happen they will. They have everything in their hands.
sega could just port ps vita f/f2nd if they want to.
@@kittikorn6674 Yes, though they won't I believe. Since the game follows a completely different format then what their trying to make of Project DIVA now days. If PS3 games were backwards compatible it would restart and introduce people to the level creator which would be a really good thing, sadly Sony doesn't see the need for old games. I think SEGA figured out how much money they make WITHOUT a level editor so they removed it in every other entry
@@weil46 Nearly impossible I mean for Sony to do it, as in they won't it's not their philosophy
@@kirei5583 they dont want to do it. Nothing impossible as they have all the codes and equipments for it. They can program it to run ps3 games. But they wont
I love your intros with this macrolike view at the begining for seperate consoles :D
AMD never brought out their transactional mem support but Intel may as well not have bothered with TSX either. Security bugs meant it got disabled so many times Intel withdrew support entirely, nearly impossible to find a chip on Ark that mentions support for it. Looks like brute forcing it with newer and faster processors and better emulation to reduce overhead will be the key.
"Sony PlayStation PS3"
What is even the title
It's a Sony Playstation Playstation 3!
It’s for TH-cam’s search analytics so more people will be able to find the video
SEO My friend
TH-cam still has tags. I'd figure those would be enough.
ah yes my favorite console sony playstation playstation 3
totally impressed with the level of explanation that could only appease the chip engineer that often wonders if its hat will ever be worn again! 😅
Oh my god. This channel is gold! How could it have avoided my attention for so long?
And this is the reason I keep my 60gig ps3 alive. Which reminds me, it's about time to order a couple more optical drive sleds as spares.
“the sony playstation playstation 3” makes sense
Gotta get those search terms in
Brought to you by the department of redundancy department.
The detail behind your videos is just awesome !
I think when things stabilize. they should create a PS5 “Legacy Edition”. With the cell hardware inside for full emulation. Charge more for it. Like 650 or something and create limited quantities.
Not as easy, The Cell
Microprocessor has been out of production for awhile. I would doubt Sony would revive production just for a small subset of consoles. I think emulation will be a path Sony takes in the future.
@@SuperMario. If they do at all...
Hisham Shoblaq they would lose money doing that especially if limited ones were made. Sony is a business not charity
I hear you. not saying they should expect this to be a big money maker. you know like a special collectors edition. i get thats its difficult, but i dont think its impossible. 15 years have passed already. a small dedicated team can probably come up with a revised cheaper cell design on a budget. for the hardcore fans.
@@HishamShoblaq cell CPU has not been made in years. To design the hardware and fabrication would be hundreds of thousands of bucks. To do it for a small niche market is insane. They are a company for profit not charity. There isn't nor would there ever be a market for such a thing. While it would be neat it isn't viable, practical or ever gonna happen 😂
As impressive as RPCS3 is, I really just want the infamous games and because they're so heavily dependent on the weird architecture of the PS3, it really sucks that they're far from ready to be emulated, a ton of progress has been made and I'm super happy about that and excited to see the progress on the infamous games but it's still a long ways off
I'm very grateful to own both plus the dlc on the original hardware, even more so hearing about how hard they are to emulate!
You reached 500k Suscribers that means you are AMAZING
If Sony was smart they would poach the lead developers to work on an in-house emulator.
I mean, the Juicero was an incredible piece of engineering as well...
Underrated comment lmao
grey It's going to get more likes and comments soon lmao.
Even the Juicero can run Crysis very smoothly.
back in the 8/16-bit era, they'd put a whole old machine inside new one for backwards compatibility.
There's no real way to see the PS3 in a good light as an engineering marvel when only less than 1% of games actually got any good use out of it.
The problem is it's application. Kutagari and Sony were quite arrogant back in those days about creating these weird platforms and expecting video game developers to burn a ton of resources to figure out how to use it like they're part of some government-funded research project with no time or budget limits. If Sony hadn't been the PowerHouse video game Market dominating force it was at the time the PS3 came out, that would have been the end of PlayStation.
The Cell CPU was quite bad for general computing. developers had to avoid using if statements like a plague for example, because it had a 40 stage pipeline and no branch prediction, which made the if statements very freaking slow.
@@dragons_red It's really Sony in it's entirety in a nutshell, not just the PlayStation division. Look at all the proprietary media and storage formats they've created over the last 40 years since Betamax was thoroughly trounced by VHS.
By the time developer figure it out it was too late into the consoles life span.
@@dragons_red The programmer SHOULD do everything. The only reason why it's not feasible is because of the for-profit capitalist system that forces companies to divest resources away from hiring more programmers to solve the issues.
Japan SUBSIDIZES their industries and half the country's more than $60 trillion in assets is owned by the Japanese central bank.
"Sony has a done a good job preserving it's library" meanwhile the PS3 and Vita stores are getting the boot :(
What do you mean?
Links or it didn't happen
he was talking about the ps2's and ps3's backwards compatibility with the ps1 and the ps2 respectively.
Oh god no. You called it.
There is also a thing to consider that just because a game can be made playable via emulation, Sony might not want make a public feature of it if it has performance issues or inconsistent performance.
Game consoles are odd: on the one hand they need very high performance but on the other they need to be super cheap to make and develop for. The IBM cell architecture comes from the mysterious world of super computers and is designed to crunch numbers. fast. you'd think: perfect for games consoles! they need fast number crunching!
but a console will only survive if there is content for it and if programmers cant make games your console is just an expensive paper weight. so console manufacturers develop platforms that are very "similar" to what is out there already. this allows studios to use their talent pool to quickly turn around games to sell on new platforms. everybody wins.
the sega saturn is a cautionary tail: sega took an arcade machine and put it into a home console. but arcade developers and home-market developers aren't the same and when it came to third party studios they ended up using the saturn like a genisis skipping out on all the features for a fast buck. (also the saturn was dificult to emulate as well because of its nature).
this is why most modern consoles are just glorified PCs because its a platform that most programmers and therefore studios can work with.
@@AnonymousGentooman I'm pretty sure that's what was tried with the 3DO, and from what I've heard, it didn't work out well.
*tale
@@AnonymousGentooman that's a baaaad idea
Even Sega took an Arcade Machine on a Console.
Daytona USA looks s--t and runs less than it does on Arcade.
10:09 says everything about how amazing and powerful PS3 Cell architecture still is even today, however to unlock it you need developers who can do that.
~170 GFLOPS CELL (PPE and six SPUs for PS3 games) with is not powerful when both GeForce 8800s (1st gen CUDA) and Radeon X1900 murders CELL in Fold at Home.
There's a reason why CELL failed in server and HPC markets when you have NVIDIA's CUDA GpGPU murdering SPUs into oblivion.
PS4's AMD APU selection has it's genesis when PC GPUs gained general compute vector math capability.
The latest version for CUDA GPU is the RTX 3080/3090 (GA102) and A100 (GA100) Ampere. CUDA GPU is alive while SPU is dead.
@@valenrn8657 Very true, GPGPU massive multi parallel computing basically triumphed over complicated Cell SPUs and that's why it failed in the HPCs.
Still when u compare performance per Watt with these 2 chips manufactured in the same 65 nm process u can see that Cell has 1/3 of transistors and half of the die size of the GF8800, much lower power draw where whole PS3 slim console with the 65 nm Cell has same power draw as single GF8800 card, not mentioning it was projected to run at 6 GHz with just 1.3 V (if cooled properly) which was an excellent efficiency at that time.
If Cell's architecture would have been more widely adopted and dev tools improved/simplified it would become very special and highly specific gaming chip delivering amazing performance per Watt.
However during the PS3 lifecycle it was pretty much clear that future of consoles will be most likely SoCs incorporating everything, most importantly GPUs and AMD "APUs" became very obvious choice for the next PS4 and future of the PS.
Till this day it's quite amazing what results PS3 Cell could deliver in the PS3 if unlocked and well optimized.
Cell was the very last console specific CPU Sony used in the PS before they moved with M$ to x86 AMD.
Looking at where we are right now it's pretty much clear AMD APUs even much more efficient that Intel's offerings are reaching power draw/cooling limitation of the PS form factor with the PS5 (needing liquid metal, maybe needing vapor chamber in the future) while Arm based chips used by the Nintendo or customized Mx chips by the Apple are clearly wave of the future when it comes to performance per Watt as well as devs support.
www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-8800-gt.c201
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_technical_specifications#Power_consumption
www.techpowerup.com/25980/sony-65nm-soi-cell-broadband-engine-details
Remember what GabeN said: PS3 is wasting everyone’s time
Sony: are you sure about that?
*some time passes and Sony bribes valve a bit*
Valve: ok
So is steam, but its managed to make itself quasi mandatory to gamers, so devs just have to live with it
That was true to an extent, developers had to master the PS2 in order to take advantage of it, and it was all thrown away once the PS3 came out since it was a completely different design. There was no guarantee the PS4 would be similar to the PS3 in any shape or form. By 2009 IBM had already ceased development on the cell
@ square enix were the top dogs when it comes to mastering the ps2 hardware.
And space....I wanna get rid of it but i wanna keep my ps3 exclusive games
3:30 Oh Lord, the SPEs. Those little things.