Water MATTERS MORE than You Think // Predicting Persona 3 Reload via Symbolism...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- MAJOR PERSONA 3 RELOAD THEORY // Throughout the latter 2010s, there’s been this natural progression of water motifs included in the adaptations or spinoffs of Persona 3. And now that the Persona 3 Reload trailer is officially out, there’s no longer any room for doubt that Atlus is deliberately associating Persona 3 with water symbolism. Even the animation for the Reload part of the logo comes in like a wave.
I’ve seen some takes that simply find the water a cool match with the blue color scheme, while others think the “trapped underwater” image really nails the somber, depressing vibe. Those things are important, yes, but in this video I’ll be making the argument that this water stuff goes WAY deeper than that, and that actually, the moon, time, memory, Orphism, and Christianity… concepts that are all indispensible to Persona 3’s identity, are all deeply connected to water. And by diving into how these things are connected, we may be able to figure out what Atlus is doing with Persona 3 Reload…
FOLLOW-UP// PART 2 TO MY THEORY: • MORE FUEL for my Perso...
FINALE // PART 3: • FINALE to my Persona 3...
SOURCES:
docs.google.com/document/d/1i...
Thanks to Nenilein for P3 Club Book translations:
• The Origins of Nyx (Pe...
ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/9...
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:04 Relevant (no spoilers) Trailer Breakdown
8:30 P3 Movies + P3D Water Motifs
10:49 Water, Moon, Time (Ancient Greek Calendars / Water Clocks)
14:34 P-Studio's 2010s Development Timeline...
20:16 RELOAD MORE THAN JUST AN EVOKER REFERENCE
23:00 P3 Club book; Nyx's Origins (A PLANET)
26:40 Water and Orphism
29:50 Water and BAPTISM (MAJOR!!!)
31:27 Hora Tenebrosa, Dum Spiro Spero, Renascere
33:43 ACTUAL PREDICTIONS (Elizabeth & Arena games)
41:40 Wada + P5R Philosophy
42:18 Persona 3 Reload "series' FUTURE??" (includes leaks)
_______________________________________________________________________
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#persona3reload #persona3 - เกม
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I didn't mention connections to Jung and his view of water and it being the most common symbol of the unconscious ("Sea of Souls" in Persona), nor did I mention his thoughts on the Cosmic Egg, just because Jung is important to the ENTIRE series. Persona 3 isn't unique in using Jung's ideas vs. its use of Greek mythos/occult and Christian theming IS something that differentiates it from the rest of the games. Because of this, the Jung connections didn't serve my theory well (why water association is important to P3 in particular)!
Also I've been working on this video for the past 3 weeks, so apologies that things I say like "the interview from a *week* ago," doesn't exactly hold up anymore lol. These interviews came out ~3 weeks ago at this point. Thanks for bearing with me!
But yeah, let me know your own theories or thoughts about Persona 3 Reload!
**FOLLOW-UP// PART 2 TO MY THEORY: th-cam.com/video/8rmyv7pJnUY/w-d-xo.html
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I said this to my Christianity Professor friend who loves Jung he was not as big on this, but there is the connection between Water and Freud's Death Instinct (Dubbed sometimes as Thanatos, which is also Makoto Yuki's second persona). What I learned from my class on Freud last quarter was that Freud had a hydraulic analogy for his pleasure principle. When "pressure" stops to the system one ceases to be and "returns to the origin" to not go into spoilers I will leave it there. Also the connection you make to Baptism, which is in a way a form of rebirth is big for Jung. Psychological transformation is the process of having multiple rebirths as one gets transformed. The symbolism of Death is in itself a form of psychological transformation. Especially, in collectivist Japanese Society according to the Jungian analyst Hayao Kawai, the founder of Jungian/Analytical Psychology in Japan (And maybe the reason the Persona series exists) stated that the weak egos of Japanese people will allow them to sometimes experience "ego death". Kawai states that one's saying they want to die does not necessarily mean they want to actually do it. The analyst should many times allow them to go through with this thought, which will in Kawai's eyes lead to a source of psychological rebirth. This is why the Evoker works very well because summoning through opening up the Ego to contact aspects of the collective unconscious (The Sea of Souls, back to the water analogy). They are in a sense constantly going through a process of psychological rebirth every time they use their evoker. Nonetheless, this does not take away from Japan's still massive suicide epidemic which is why one should still have caution when one has s8icidal intent.
Hi 👋 sorry 😞 yea yea but I just had the wrong 😑 number to call 📞 back and said hi 😅 hi yea yea hi 👋 hello
yeah i was kinda surprised considering i think reload is mostly doing a literal interpretation of the sea of unconscius. also, one god that jung mentioned as being the perfect representation of the unconscious is the sea god, Proteus. a shapeshifter, which is a good reflection of the protagonist. shame they never used him in persona
I just want to say that the marketing strategy of releasing new info on full moons is actually SO COOL. I've actually been looking at the moon every night lately and thinking to myself "It's coming." P3R marketing really makes you FEEL a member of SEES
Oh I’m so hyped for this.
Persona 3’s circle symbolism and how it connected the moon, the headphones/evokers, “circle of life”, etc. was very obvious to me. But I never noticed the water symbolism, but it fits well with the previous themes as well.
If they go this direction I could see them adding a psuedo SL for Elizabeth that ranks up when you go on dates with her, and if you do them all you get the February story arc.
Makoto being saved wouldnt undo the theme of P3 like ppl have whined about for over a decade, bc the point of it wasnt just, “death is inevitable, you must accept,” it was also, “life is beautiful so appreciate it before death comes for you.” Makoto learned to care about the world around him and thats why he made that sacrifice. But how is that fair for one kid to sacrifice himself to eternal stasis to stop a god from destroying the world. Why cant those he bonded with work to change his fate? Especially ELIZABETH!! Like his sacrifice would never be pointless if undone, especially because Elizabeth might just take his place!!! Why wouldnt she if that was the only way!?
It will still ruin the theming of P3. The point of P3 is to make the most of life because you will one day die. Its not about being edgy and just accepting death, its meant to be uplifting. Its why its so hard to max out all the slinks in the game, because its also about how you dont necessarily have the time to do everything in your life and instead you should do the things you enjoy and make you happy. Unfortunately, theyre only making the game easier judging from interviews and if he is revived I dont see what the message of the game would be? It would go from 'make the most of your life and do the things you love' to 'oh you can do everything you want and cheat death too ig lol'
@@louish5068you really think the message would be “you can cheat death lol?”
The meaning doesn’t disappear just because the dude comes back to life. The message is still there. You need to keep in mind that it’s a video game franchise and they set up a plot like for elizabeth to find a way to bring him back that hasn’t been concluded yet.
@@unoriginalyoutubename8761 what could the message possibly be though? Just more power of friendship?
I think it will be a cool(ish) story, dont get me wrong. But I think I would rather take the themes being kept in tact over linking it to the p4 arena games.
@louish5068 if they take the roundabout way of changing rhe ending due to liz searching for answers to save makoto, its not undoing the them if anything, she was moved so much by the protag that she spent years searching for a way to save him. If the theory that liz sets up the events of p4 and p5 are true it makes even more sense with the themes of those games, p3 was more about the acceptance that death will come it was much darker in universe that nyx and humanity were separated and yearn to be united which is why the peoples collective concious created erebus, it calls for nyx. Makoto only keeps erebus from nyx, not the other way around, and maybe im misremembering, but the seal wont last forever. Saving makoto would honestly bring the game full circle for me, i feel like the fan base right now is literally the members of sees in the answer arguing if we should go back in time, some say yes, some say no, some are conflicted
@@louish5068 nah you literally completely missed what i said bc you basically regurgitated the reasoning I already criticized. Such a shallow perception of P3.
I should have known every single detail of these games has this level of detail and backstory to it.
What an awesome video!
idk if or how they would change anything about the ending. i do think some type of february thing being added is more than a possibility. they specifically chose 3/5 as the day they'd meet again because they knew they wouldn't *immediately* forget everything after eliminating the dark hour. they could easily shove some type of plot point in between.
yeah I'm not entirely sure *how* they could pull off a convincing change, but the set-up is *there* if they wanted to go for it imo
I was already hyped for Reload, and still will be even if it is just a 1:1 remake of the original game. But watching this just has me even more hyped for the possibilities. Even imagining what they could *potentially* do is so exciting! I love the idea of Elizabeth having a bigger role in the overall story, or perhaps some sort of New Game+ changes. No doubt that regardless of what path they take, they are breathing new life into a classic story, and I am SO here for it.
Not completely 1:1
Tartarus is changed to not have narrow hallways
And also, the perspective view of the camera is COMPLETELY different
There are SO many hints to indicate that Makoto is gonna get revived in an extra story, I don't know how people aren't noticing them. They're even in the lyrics AND in the Latin words of the original trailer.
Whereabouts in the lyrics? Maybe I'm just hearing it different lol
If he gets revived the game is ruined, completely destroys the messaging of the first game
i really hope this does not happen....
@@louish5068 no it doesn't
@@tsunox1279 you only think it doesnt cuz people (like in the vid) say it doesnt. It does. If the message of the game is about living your life to the fullest (because everyone dies), what is it saying if you have a second chance at life? Even in the video itself I didn't understand what she was trying to say when she was saying it could still work within the themes, because to me she basically just explained how it would break the themes.
Interesting theory! I actually think Atlus is being transparent in how theyve said it is an faithfully retelling so I don’t think plot changes will occur, but the deepening refers to exploring underutilized characters (Strega,Shinji, Ryoji) and plot lore like the Nyx stuff. I think they are aware, more than anything, that P3 is beloved for its OG ending and won’t alter it, but possibly make it more heartbreaking
Its good to be faithful to the original in some ways. Keep in mind some remakes, despite being good, have several questionable changes to the main narrative, leading to backlash. Atlus makes the right choice in that area, though its good to at least improve some underutilized parts. Persona 3 was initially released as an experimental game, the beginning of the neo generation narratives, which was why its messy at some areas.
Wait, your birthday is the same as P3's first day of school? That's amazing! Also by the way, Gekkoukan means "Moonlight". Every Persona high-school's name is ridiculously unsubtle if you know Japanese. (P4 = "myriad gods", P5 = "prisoner"... I need to play 1 and 2.)
I discovered Orphic mystery cults when playing Hades... where it's implied they started because Zagreus and Dionisius pranked Orpheus with a fake origin story and Orpheus got WAY too into it.
Seeing them side-by-side, Kenji's SL dialogue is mostly the same but it's been cleaned up a little, and I like it so far.
Interesting note: in Japanese, the Kanji used for "month" means "moon". A lot of cultures refer to months as "moons" but it's pretty explicitly in Japan.
I love how the clock symbolism continues into Persona Q. I'm biased but in my high school English classes we studied a LOT of texts that used clock symbolism, and very often it was associated with death and "memento mori". (Since time inevitably kills every living thing) Which... yeah, that's very P3.
The backlash is still funny to me, because up until recently people HATED The Answer and many were actually happy Portable excluded it. It might be fun to research exactly WHY opinions on it did such a 180 recently.
I do remember the Nyx backstory stuff, but my main takeaway at the time was "lol they're implying Nyx killed the dinosaurs". Also thanks for shouting out Nenilein, I've never seen her videos but they look interesting.
When you said "the only way to get a Plume of Dusk" I was literally about to type "unless you're playing on Easy Mode" and you'd already covered that lol.
I got emotional at your Elizabeth plot idea. As someone who really likes her, I feel like it'd be a fitting thing for her to do, I wouldn't mind her sacrificing herself like that. And yeah, the whole setup in P4G and Arena that hasn't gone anywhere yet makes me wonder.
This video was worth the wait, and I look forward to more of what P3Re brings.
I love all your analysis and speculations regarding persona 3 reload, and you really managed to give a highly satisfactory explanation of the water theme esthetic, I wouldn't be surprised if at least several of your predictions come true, at least I hope so, and the truth is, I wouldn't mind if they did something similar at the end of p5 royale, although the theory of Elizabeth sacrificing herself also sounds quite plausible, anyway good video ❤
Oh my god, thank you for this. When I heard they weren't including The Answer, I immediately started suspecting time shenanigans, and this video has definitely strengthened those suspicions. I am so hyped for this game, can't wait to see what they do
Death is ineluctable, for each and everyone. We are all going to die, and no one is coming back from it (even if there is an afterlife, there doesn't seem to be visits from beyond the grave (no credible testimony thereof, at least). Those two facts, that death is necessary (not in a moral sense but in terms of causality) and final are not only part of our human condition but intrisically part of life itself. What seems to set us apart is that we are conscious of that fate.
Persona 3 had such an impact on me because it was a story about that, stated clearly from the opening: "memento mori" (keep death in mind) and "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am). No matter how sad I was at the end of the game, the ending was honest, it was thematically consistent, it was good. As far as I am concerned, it is art at its best: giving us a narrative framing to shed a new light on our condition.
If P3reload ends on the protagonist's resurrection, maybe it will be a good story, but it will juste be one more story that claims to be about death yet refuses to face the reality of it. It may be a good story, but it won't be as meaningful.
This video was incredible. I actually teared up thinking about SEES potentially remembering in february and living to the fullest until the end. If Elizabeth completes her quest by sacrificing herself too...
My prediction is the Koromaru is gonna be getting a lot more screen time and that's more than enough to reason to buy and play Persona 3 reload.
I think that we are going to have a new true ending where the Protagonist lives as well. The signs cannot be ignored and I really liked your theory on how this could all work. It also actually would give some sense of closure for the Persona 3 series and help the Persona franchise move on to future titles such as Persona 6.
Okay even though I'm not entirely convinced yet this is such a cool theory and as a BIG fan of what Square has done with FF7R I can't lie seeing something similar happen to another one of my favorite games of all time is incredibly exciting! Really awesome work dude!
I think the main reason we haven't seen another Arena is not because they were capitalizing on p5 hype, but because Arc System Works has their hands full with projects as is (Guilty Gear Strive, Dragonball Fighterz, Under night, Granblue Fantasy Versus, DNF Duel, etc.)
Imagine if the story plot of this is that we play the same story but through Elizabeth's perception where she watches the protagonist's journey and forms her own fool's journey since she's still starting with the fool arcana and needs to probably grow in order to attain the solution. With her being inexperienced she could do what Margeret did with the vision doors where she not only replays battle memories but even various moments of the old game hence "reload" like recalling or replaying for us. She may then cause some intervention which somehow shows the new special events or scenes promised to us by the developers. - Somehow started cooking this idea while watching it a month later....
Every time I watch one of your videos I learn so much! I definitely think you're on to something here. I could totally see P3R being a "New game plus" of P3. And seeing as Elizabeth is one of my favourite characters, if she was involved in the new story, that would be amazing too
It is wild to me just how much fascinating lore is Japan-exclusive for the Persona franchise. I barely knew what Plumes of Dusk were before recently playing Persona 4 Arena, and now Im learning the community knew about them since 2006 as a direct result of Nyx being a planet!?
Persona's world is so fascinating in so many ways and I just wish more of this information was more accessible.
Also, if we get a February, I hope either Aigis or Elizabeth take the mantle of protagonist/leader if there's gameplay sections!! I love them and they've had the Fool Arcana in P4A/U so it's not too crazy to think of.
I think this theory will make a splash. Very nice to have this video to wet our appetite and tide us over until the next information comes. I’m sure some other information will bubble up over time before the next wave, but we will just have to sea how it goes.
I could definitely see everything with Elizabeth happening. If they do at least some what ypu brought up then they would squeeze a social link in for her like Marie in Persona 4 Golden for example and wether or not you get the extra month or whatever you do will hinge on a maxed social link with Elizabeth and possibly even Ryoji. Could totally see it happening and would genuinely love it.
Man, Persona 3 is such a fucking good game. Even after all these years I'm still learning more about it. Overall, I am still kinda mixed about this "theory"(?) (if you can even call it that?).
On the one hand, your reasonings do make a lot of sense, and they do get me very hyped to see if Atlus would dare to make such drastic changes to the story. If they do go through it it then holy shit that is so chad.
On the other hand, by introducing alternate timelines (and potentially universes), you're opening a cosmically-sized can of worms. Not only is it hard to get consistent, it's scaling the story to such a great degree that it might turn off the general playerbase. I'm confident that large portion of Persona fans are just fans of Persona 5 who has no interest in the series as a whole. While that shouldn't stop Atlus from attracting people to other entries, it is simply risky. The story of these games would be so convoluted and spread out, it's hard to keep up. If this plan does not work out, I can hardly see them having this freedom of storytelling again.
Still, I am Team Believe. The trend of multiple timelines and/or universes has recently been represented ubiquitously in mainstream media, most notably in the MCU (and potentially in Attack on Titan as well). That's why I can honestly see this hypothesis be successful in evolving Persona as a game series. My wallet, nevertheless, is still in mortal danger lmao.
Adding on to the "Reload might have Liz doing time fuckery" theory, in P3D it's quite obvious that Liz, (er, Elle-P) is from the future and is already on her journey based on a couple of things she mentions. Even if P3D isn't canon, it's worth noting that Wada's team has already dabbled with the idea of Liz messing with time to see the protagonist again.
Hear me out:
P3, Blue, leaning full into Water for the reasons stated here.
P4, Yellow; maybe a stretch but the associations with weather, fog, perception COULD be associated with air.
P5, Red; another stretch, but the whole Revolt, Rebellion theme could be construed as something fiery.
The last big basic color Persona has yet to touch is Green. Maybe some kind of Earth theme? 👀👀👀 This is wild speculation, obviously.
You got it completely right, SMT is a series that constantly references occultism, you should search up the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram and the Golden Dawn Qabbalah to see the links. Water is linked to the moon via Gabriel, the sun to air via Raphael, fire to mercury via Micheal (though tbh Persona 5 really didn’t have a Mercury theme like Persona 3 had a moon theme and 4 a sun theme) and earth to the Abyss via Uriel
So P3 is the FF7 equivalent of the Persona series after all. 😅
Ngl, I feel like I'm setting myself up for disappointment by believing these hints. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I really want to see stuff like Elizabeth's journey conclusion.
On the topic of Chidori's death in FES, wasn't it retconned in P4 Arena Ultimax? I remember Junpei speaking about her as if she's still alive and they are together.
That makes me think the possibilty to save her like in Portable will be available
You were straight up COOKING🔥🔥, This would be an amazing twist. I'm legit sold on it, I'll keep my expectations set but this was an awsome video.
❤ this theory. Honestly I was thinking bits of this but you put it all together!!!
AAAHHHG!! This was another great analysis video on p3, thank u! I fucking love when games and media have so many layers to them like this!! This is just one of those games where you can revisit and still find some details you didn't get the first time and aughh it's so good! Loved your analysis and interpretation on the whole water theme/symbolism they've been using!
You're just making it more hype for me, good video
Liz's story in arena and in the answer did mention that changing the hearts of the masses would weaken Erebus.
so there is a good chance that Liz uses the Akashic records (going back in time) to use her newly found knowledge of what the thieves were doing (which would let her not be affected by yabadabadoo's thing) which would aid in her fools journey.
exactly how would she do it? I'm not sure but all I know is that details like that can't just be overlooked
even though the theory is logical, it might take too much time and much more difficulty to pull off. At the same time, the Inaba Investigation Team and Phantom Thieves did a favour to SEES in somewhat preventing/delaying certain negative aspects of humanity's collective cognition from going too far. Even though each neo generation team went through different thematic cores of psychology; death, truth, rebellion, they are interconnected in different ways.
At the same time, the thought of mass cognition research, even remnants igniting battles gave me the shivers. Royal and Strikers already elevated the possibility and dangers of individual researchers using their own means to reach and control the collective cognition. In which the dangers the future generation teams after the Phantom Thieves might be even worse with that possibility.
@@vanessachowjiaying4423i haven't played p3 but if i remember correctly nix was awoken because people just wanted to die and was invincible because of how strong that emotion was?
Would it be possible to temporarily overwrite the majorities cognition of life, beat nix, and then return it to normal?
If Wada and team is satisfied with the game, so does me. No need any fancy alter timeline or massive story change, just adding more memorable times together (👀 shinji and ken👀) and a nice parting for MC would be more than enough
I wonder if the ending will be like regular p3, but will include a post credit scene of Elizabeth saving our boy
oh my god thank you for this video, i always love predictive analysis like this! your ideas are complicated but it delivered well and easy to understand! cant wait to see if the game aligned with this.
also cant wait for one day if p1 & p2 remakes come, i want to hear all of your analysis again!
whatever they do, im so damn excited for this game. thank you for this video, for going through all the themes and linking them to the game so well. I'm not sure i 100% buy into the theories yet, cause them doing that would be the best possible direction they can go for me, and i wanna lower my expectations lol
Even the stairs leading to next floor in Tartarus have texture that makes it look like they're underwater. It's impossible to ignore these recurring themes, as you mentioned.
This is a really nice video thanks for the hardwork!!
Wow. 😂 im sold, you went hard at it, im really suprised, thanks a lot for the video.❤
My honest prediction when it comes to the "resurrection scenario" is that if they bring MC back to life... it won't be as the MC we knew him as.
Think about it, only MC's soul remains. His body was cremated after all, there's nothing for his soul to go back to. And as far as Persona lore goes (that I know of), a soul isn't the same as a Shadow, so he cannot pull a Teddie and simply grow a body out of sheer will.
Basically, I'm talking about the "Identity/Character Death" route here, just like a certain girl in the story goes through (under the right conditions). The MC the rest of SEES knew is gone for good, "Makoto Yuki" had his chance and saw it to its end. Making MC be reborn as a completely different person with no memories of his past life, crossing paths with SEES without them ever knowing, and living a fulfilled, peaceful life for a whole 80-something years would be my personal way to go.
It doesn't undo his sacrifice, keeps the themes of living to the fullest within the life you're given and MC gets a chance to live the longer life he couldn't before.
A literal "Death and Rebirth", just like the Death Arcana.
yeah i like this one - lady also said "free his soul" as a possibility instead of entire reviving him
I'm sold! It's COMPELLING!
Thank you very much for your videos, I love them. Your analysis and insight on the mythology the games are inspired on is so fascinating.
Throughout the video, there were these key moments where it just CLICKED to me what you were going at and I was like... HOOOOLY SHIIT!!!
Hahahahahahaha.
Love your content!. I also love your Trails videos, too, btw.
Looking forward for what's to come!
I like the idea of going back in time in a New Game+ manner, but I thought of something more like Atlus releasing a "Persona 3 Reload Royal/Definitive Edition Plus & Knuckles" where we'd get the full experience and finally get the MC to live.
Figure this: in this hypothetical future game, we'd have FeMC as a new party member, introduced maybe as a MC's lost sister or something like that. She would also be a wild card, so we'd have two in the party. By the end of the game, if you get some requisites done, you'd get the 3rd semester shenanigans and you'd find out that the FeMC is actually there because of Elizabeth and Theodore trying to free their guests (she would be revealed to be from another timeline, not MC's actual sister). There would be a battle between the MCs so one of them could be freed, and Elizabeth would fight alongside you, while Theodore would be a boss alongside the FeMC. After that, the FeMC would choose by her own will to become the seal, because she values all the friends she's made and wants the MC to live on. Or something along those lines (sorry, my English is not all that great)
Hmm I also like your idea a lot! That would be preferred over the first playthrough making the MC survive no matter what
It could be that Reload is Elizabeth rewinding time to experience makoto’s journey again, but it always ends the same way. Only way I see them doing a new semester is through somebody else in the story, maybe even Liz herself. Maybe have someone else replace him as the seal do as not to invalidate the sacrifice entirely, but they’re gonna need to be on their A game to make that work and I wouldn’t blame them for just playing it straight.
One thing I want to put is lyrics of when moon reaches star reload
After seeing this video it definitely backed a few theories I’ve had about the general lore of persona 3, Primarily being the message of “Time continues forward even if one were to fall.” One theory being the resurrection of the mc, now some would say that he shouldn’t return or if he did the whole message of the game would be ruined entirely and to that I say not really, as you stated he himself is symbolized as the embodiment of the savior or the one who sacrificed himself to save humanity this shares in ties with Jesus Christ himself for he also sacrificed himself for humanity, along with that he was stated to be resurrected which could also be the case for mc as well via Elizabeth or something else a long the lines of possibility which would make sense in the grand scheme of the game overall. But I indeed loved your theory on the subject as it answered some questions of mine along with supported some speculations I had.
This video changed my life
Brilliant video
I only recently got the chance to play any version of P3 with the P3P release on modern consoles. I played the modern Persona games in reverse order, so 3 is definitely the one I have the least amount of experience and knowledge with.
But I've greatly enjoyed getting to watch your lore videos for P5/R and 3, they've helped me appreciate things better since I don't think the P3P experience was the best one.
Ever since I learned what the P3 Protag's fate was from another video a while back, I was hoping there might be a way to resurrect him in the future. I understand the thematic weight and significance of what happened, but I think that a slightly altered story in which his bonds were so strong as to change fate itself (be it the bonds directly or Elizabeth's intervention due to her bond with him) could make for an extremely compelling story.
You are a treasure of the internet, LadyVirgilla! Thank you for these amazing in depth videos
I hope it's good for folks excited for it, it looks really great, I wish I could be also. Either way, I like this video quite a bit, great indights, thank you.
i honestly think that your theory is totally correct
with the whole 'jesus of nazareth' kinda vibe they gave the mc it kind of fits that we've had like 2-3 main line persona games release since his death, sorta like the 3 days before jesus rose again
that combined with the symbolism of water; if they do have elizabeth trying to bring him back (or at least let him enjoy his last months with his friends who remember this time) i think that it would make perfect sense to incorporate drinking from the pool of memory rather than forgetfulness in the afterlife and representing that as him and his friends re-enacting and going through the events of p3 again in persona 3 reload
here's to hoping p3r is as good as the original :D
I was late to the dancing party games, but the 4 iteration gave me pause for hope. While there are no names dropped for who she wants to save (for the p4 cast), fans know who exactly it is, and why there is still a lingering hope, even now. She is willing to go far, and I am so very interested to see where her journey leads.
Also, I never did dig into the translations of the intro video, fascinating quote. Thanks!
great video!
Omg the 3 days later comment….instead of it being 3 days later maybe his resurrection is 3 games later😮 i really love this content you put out. Just this is awesome
This is so crazy and awesome 😳
Damn...
And here I thought I was overthinking P3 symbolism / over-interpreting Atlus trailers and interviews.
You got me beaten by a mile.
I really like your theory though, at least the part where the whole cast, with Elizabeth help, gets a shot at getting their memories back before MC's death.
On a more pragmatic and somewhat cynical note, I think the FEMC reload isn't dead yet, but might become a DLC or a full game on its own, depending on P3 reload sales.
This video is very well made, but it has me worried they’re actually going to keep Makoto alive in the end. I think the ending was beautiful and had room for interpretation, and I didn’t like how the answer or arena imply he can be brought back, since I think having him die for his friends made the ending satisfying already. I really hope they don’t change the ending
This might not be a thematic thing and is relatively light evidence compared to what’s in the video, but one thing I want to remember is that they’re revealing new info at every full moon at least for the rest of 2023. That’s at least 7 new content drops ignoring any special events like Gamescom or the Game Awards, interviews, or maybe just random trailer drops. If this were JUST a remake of P3 with nothing more than updated gameplay and visuals like a standard remake, that’s way more content drops than we should need, especially when the game is at least 6 months out. It doesn’t exactly line up with the idea of this video, but it certainly helps the idea that there’s more to Reload than we think.
i’ve been waiting for this
wait now i sound like Akihiko
Amazing job lady
I kinda like the idea of Makoto going on the return from Hell idea and to do that, he must fight his way through the entire year AGAIN.
Amazing, gonna have to wait more than half a year to watch this lol
You are. So smart. If it goes down anywhere close to what you're theorizing, i will not be mad about it. I will be very impressed.
Your thoughts caused me to have thoughts!!! Im wondering if the *entirity* of reload is elizabeth reloading persona 3 in an effort towards resurrection rather than just the potential third semester spot. I also think it would be cool, if we play as protag in the third semester, that we have an ally in femc who is trapped in the same abyss/tartarus that mc is. Maybe if SEES forgetting their time together is the same as the originals, minako will be our ally during the dark hour since no one else will have access to it if they forgot. Im also just a big minako truther and i miss my girl
Ah I got talking about femc and missed my original point - tldr I think it would be cool if all of reload was, without our knowledge, Elizabeth's "reset" of that year but something goes wrong and the consequences will occur in the third semester arc.
Coming from the future with confirmed Answer DLC, I wonder if it will feature a possible rebirth.
The Arcana is the means by which all is revealed...
This video is so well done that I feel like I just got spoiled on Reload xD
When you talk about this being some kinda new game + timeline I realized “Reload” could also be like reloading a finished save
It's convincing I honestly haven't thought about story changes that much I'm more interested in gameplay changes like the requirements for fuuka yukari and mitsuris social links and some other minor issues I had in combat
The clues and facts you've laid out do hold up, and the case you've made is compelling. I know you try your best to not let your theory be skewed with bias, and just approach it from the facts you've gathered.
I'm sorry. Despite logic telling me that your theory does have basis, and might even be likely, I cannot bring myself to say that I'm sold on it. The original ending, with the protagonist being willing to give his own life to secure that of his friends', is precious to me, speaking as a player and as a fledging writer. This story told by the game has impacted me so much, and shaped how I view the topic of death and nihilism.
Any attempts by various media to discuss how an individual faces death has always fallen flat for me; many of them felt like they were just vomiting up what others have already done before them, and there was never a definite answer. But Persona 3 finally gave me an answer, one that I've held close to my heart ever since.
I am obviously speaking with bias right now, considering that the only reason I can't agree with you is my emotional attachment to the original ending. If things *do* turn out as you've predicted and Reload has this different ending...
Well, I wouldn't say I'd be outraged and go onto forums to screech about how Persona 3 has been "ruined forever". I don't really know how I'd even react, or what emotions I'd experience, in all honesty. Only thing I *do* know is that I'd wish the ending stayed the same, instead of us getting... this.
*Final verdict: I don't agree with your idea; not because it has flimsy logic, but just out of personal preference.*
If you do read this, thank you for taking your time to do so.
26:40 I think that might be implying that they’re considering remakes of 1 &2. Both were highly voted in the polls (2 actually tying with 3), and describing it as a challenge that would effect things going forward feels like they might also be alluding to essentially doing what P3RE is again.
Also, of course P1-2 are supposedly going to appear in a new persona game along with 3-5, so that also might be alluding to it as well.
Crackpot theory, that I hope isn’t false lol
As soon as I heard about reload I actually thought of elizabeth and Arena. it would finish the story beautifully and give closure to those that also play arena too. Though originally I thought it was more likely to be a spin off game with elizabeth instead of an possible alt ending.
It seems each persona has it's own element, 3 being trapped in the abyss of the sea, persona 4 being lost in white noise and P5 being lost amongst endless crowds and subways.
I might totally be reaching here, but what I also found interesting is that the tides that specifically occur only during Full Moons (and New moons) are coincidentally called Spring tides.
Although the "Spring" doesn't exactly refer to the season. Rather, it's the rise and forth action of 'springing', since the Spring Tides occuring on the Full Moons are the only times of the month that the tides reaches its maximum range, meaning water level rises and falls to the greatest extent from the mean tide level.
This could allude to the in-game Full Moon being when shadows are the most active and when the major turn of events happen, just like how the Full Moon's Spring Tides are more dangerous and active as well.
And I guess we also know how Spring is an important theme for the game as well. Game starts in Spring with the first Full Moon being when MC awakens on April 9th, which is also during the first Spring Tide of the Spring season, which Spring itself symbolizes new start and rebirth.
And of course the usual multiple symbolism attached to water, such as the natural cycle or flow of the passage of time and life, game's location set on Tatsumi Port Island/Seaside Iwatodai, Sea of Souls, Drowning in Depression, etc.
Heck, even the game opens up by showing Yukari using the sound of running water to drown out or control her extreme fear of death as she struggles to use the evoker. The more I think about it, the more I see how water fits perfectly with Persona 3.
I completely forgot about Elizabeth’s goals in P4A until you mentioned it haha. Also, I’m not too sure how I feel about them changing certain moments of P3’s story. A part of me thinks it sounds cool and would like to experience the changes, but another part of me thinks P3’s story is great as it is. Like you said, if this is the route they’re taking, they might have a moment or something in the game that will trigger these changes, and if you want to experience the original story you can decide not to trigger it. Though how would you know, unless they straight up ask if you want a new experience. Either way, I’m still very excited for the game
i cant watch this video because i know it's going to get my hopes up and i already went nuts over the thumbnail and title but great theory!
I always thought about Liz in Arena was going to save P3MC. I just didn’t think we’d ever see it.
So if it does occur in Reload. I’m… nervous about how they’d pull it off in a satisfactory manner.
I definitely can’t think of anything. Here’s hoping for a fun game nonetheless 😌
My crackpot theory relating to P3R is that Metaphor: Re Fantazio is going to have some lore connection to the Persona universe since Re Fantazio seems to be playing with the idea of a fantasy mirror world vs the real world. Take all of what I say with like a heaping pile of salt, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I remember seeing a post with some promotional material for Re Fantazio featuring a blue tea set and Le Grimoire (the book the Velvet Attendants carry with them) placed inconspicuously off to the side. Where the connection between these IP's really comes into play though is with the protagonist, who is awfully reminiscent of our dear blue haired boy from Persona 3, even if they aren't exactly the same. Maybe his appearance changes a bit when he "crosses over" at the end of P3R. And perhaps the ending of Re Fantazio will have our protag-kun leaving once again to return to the world he came from. Who knows? I don't know.
This remake is oozing of nostalgia not from the game solely but the whole experience while playing this game.
To add to the theory
Wadda and Water sound almost identical in a cockney accent... coincidence? I THINK NOT!
May we just highlight the line “Took a few Knock-outs to understand the game, now ready for a rematch” from the reveal trailers accompanying track for a second
You're saying we might get a Velvet Attendant that is also a Protagonist and that's how we get a future ending ?
Like a jump forward instead of being stuck in the past like in the answer ?
While we’re talking Japanese exclusive p3 content I recommend the p3 drama cds that were translated here on TH-cam. Not much lore on them but good for my p3 brain rot 😅
Well, I don't know if your theories will be right, but you have made me more interested in playing Reload.
I spent half the video hearing "Persona 3 Cook Book" and was so confused.
YES! I was thinking the exact same thing when the game was announced (20:00) :D
I've added the menu screen as my live wallpaper for my laptop it's so smooth
I mean I get why they didn’t include fem mc cuz you know the new port of both p3 portable and p4 golden being released recently for more modern systems but I don’t understand why they didn’t add the answer. I’m just hoping they add both as some dlc down the road but if not I’m still really excited for it and will continue to play it and p3 portable as many time as I’d like as a persona fan would
Nyx is an Alien Planet?
...
P3 copying Type-MOON's homework?
I see this as an absolute win.😂
I just hope that if they change the ending that they make use of the fact this is a remake and actually make it flow (pun kind of intended) through the main story line, I really really like P5R added part, I think it deepens and consolidates the themes from the main game but its narrative has 3 elements that bother me:
(WARNING)
(SPOILER FOR P5R)
(WARNING)
1. First ignoring a palace, while not all palaces, Joker and Morgana actually see a palace and decide to not investigate it. For me this is ridiculous both from a strategic point as well from a compassion standpoint, when this happens it should be abudantly clear that whoever has a palace is causing great suffering either to themselves or others.
2. The Sumire's reveal is way too exposition heavy, this is obvious why, since the reveal had to be done at the near the actual end of the game, most of the circumstances could only come to light at that time so everything is exposed together in what is a bit of a slow mess
3. Similarly if you know that there is going to be a new enemy in P5R it's obviously Maruki, but since its a completely optional ending you can't really begin exposing his backstory in the main game and so you're left with getting exposition tapes in the dungeon which is not great in a dungeon which already breaks the quick flow that the rest of the game dungeons have.
Commenting on the cosmogony, this has a complication of Persona being connected to SMT by way of Devil Summoner. The Sea of Souls is clearly connected to (and may in fact be) the Expanse, which itself exists outside worlds and time. To say that something "created it" brings up the questions of the Great Will and the Axiom.
As for resurrecting the MC, any version of events that ends with him alive has the potential to butterfly away at least Persona 5 in its entirety, if not Persona 4 as well. After all, the somewhat underutilized Shadow Operatives grew out of the remnants of SEES, and the leader being alive changes that group's dynamic, which in turn may lead to them being involved in things they didn't touch previously. That doesn't mean its impossible, the world of Persona has been recreated before even if we ignore the connection to the metaverse (I am going to use that term properly, Morgana, and you can't stop me) that is SMT. But for the MCs of Persona games to meet up later they have to even exist. If this game is to affect the future of the series in terms of story direction, then that would likely contradict the idea of crossing the games over again, because the timeline would fork from P3Re in a direction that doesn't include P4 and P5.
Thank you! So many people think the game is solely about death, even though its one of the most life affirming video games in all of fiction. Though I do hope Chidori still gets to live via player choice. Its small but I like her marrying Juenpei in the arena games and IMO plays into the Christian symbolism. I'm completely sold on bringing Makoto back, even before this video. (though being my favorite protag and loving how the symbolism involved do have me biased)
Finally 😭 been anticipating this video for weeks!
The only problem I can think of is that Hero does come back in base P3. He dies on January 31st, and comes back until March 5th. There's even 3 months between them, similar to the 3 days.
January 31st to march 5th is 33 days. Not 3 months.
You missed the most obvious water connection of all: Wada sounds like a Bostonian saying "water."
For the 10 cycles at 29:29, With the first game, FES, and Portable you have 4 cycles including FeMC. Q one and two get you 6, Dancing is 7, the Movies are 8, and with the re-release early 2023 you get 9. This game makes for the 10th. You could count the Answer separately meaning this would be breaking out of the cycle. It's also interesting that with the JP trailer it starts completely submerged whereas the other trailers have the character stilling within a watery environment.
I'm only 3min in but this boutta be a good video