my main issue (and the reason why I don't buy/read his books) is that part of the money he makes from book sales goes to the LDS. he might not hold certain bigoted views (anymore) but the church certainly does, so I think it's a fair point to criticise. EDIT: okay I've been thinking about this a lot lol. highly recommend watching Alyssa Grenfell's video about Mormon authors (and read the comments), and generally look into what ex-Mormons have to say.
I think it's ridiculous to say that judging someone for their mormonism is "just as bigoted as anything a church might teach". Mormonism is a religion deeply rooted in ideas of settler colonialism, manifest destiny, white supremacy etc, and I think it's totally fine to be wary of someone for being a Mormon. I'm sure Brandon Sanderson is a fine guy individually, but by staying a member of the Mormon church he is implicitly endorsing their stances. Not to mention the amount of money he donates to the church directly from the sales of his books. There's a great ex Mormon TH-camr called Alyssa Grenfell who has a video on why there are so many Mormon fantasy authors, well worth a watch! In that video she makes some really good points about Sandersons mormonism, and how he supports the church because it hasn't hurt him, while ignoring the real harm it does to others.
@@quinncrook6058 I don't have an issue with people liking his writing, I'm sure he's a great author! He wouldn't be this popular if he wasn't. I just don't ever want to support him financially knowing where the money goes.
Alyssa is awesome! Best insights on Mormonism ever! 😊 And yes, Mormonism is … definitely something 🤣 I do wonder how clearly intelligent people (like Brandon Sanderson) can be part of it.
The “discriminating against religious belief is just as bigoted” is still something I think is wrong. There’s still very good reasons to be not immediately trustful of organised religion or its subscribers. it’s not bigoted to avoid people who fly the flag of ideas that do great harm. Being black or being Mormon are not the same type of thing and the prejudices against each group are not equal in weight. However. Being black or being Mormon doesn’t dictate your whole person either. I’m only one book into Sanderson and granted haven’t seen him do a talk or anything but I suspect I’d have more in common with what I want for the world with him over, Kemi Badenoch for example.
I appreciate your point of view and how you formed a nuanced opinion. However I do believe there comes a point where you draw a line between one individual's personal beliefs and the practical, political ripercussioni of the organisations he associates himself with. I have absolutely no doubt believing that Mistborn and Stormlight are masterpieces of fantasy writing. But by buying them I know that I would be giving my money to someone who, by virtue of being part of the LDS church, regularly donates to a cult founded on misogyny, white supremacy and queerphobia. I'm sure Sanderson does not share most of those values, but he still financially supports an organisation that does. I do not judge Sanderson's religious views and I'm sure that he is pretty progressive for a man of faith. But I'm not going to be giving my money to him either. Two things can be true.
as someone who chimed into the patreon discussion about sanderson and how i see him and his work personally, i really like this video! (i like all of yours but this video is important :) ) his magnum opus is/are "the stormlight archives" which are definitely some of the best books ive ever read. period.
I completely respect your honesty here. Here’s the thing: The modern argument that ‘I can’t support person x because they believe y’ is fundamentally flawed, especially if you live in the western world. Have we all checked to see if every item of clothing we own was made ethically? Every item of food cruelty free, fair trade and non exploitative? That political party we’re a member of has never done anything unethical, like ever, right? And those religions have always been perfectly loving and never harmed anyone, yeah? Or for the athiests, they’ve never done anything bad right? Ultimately this stance makes anyone a hypocrite. Fact is, all groups are made of people and half of those people are gonna be shitty assholes. A Modern member of that group may be actively disagree or be working trying to improve it. Like, I’m not religious but there’s a church down the street whose wider organization has been historically homophobic that has a giant pride flag on the side of the building with a sign that says ‘all are welcome’. They’re lovely people. Life is messy. Judge people by their actual actions.
with all due respect, the comparison here is flawed. clothes and food are essential, books are not. if an author monetarily supports an institution like the LDS, people are allowed not to support them, and also criticise them for that choice. when you know how the Mormon church has impacted US and global politics, it's difficult to argue that everyone should respect the active members of this church by giving them money.
@ I’m not at all arguing the Mormon church isn’t problematic. It is. I strongly oppose its belief system. Or saying you should support Sanderson. That’s your decision. I’m just saying you and I are both members of political parties that have done bad things. Same with religions, if you’re at all religious. Same with most jobs. Same with ma y products we buy, even non necessities. You play video games? Horribly abusive practices have come out about many developers. Don’t even get me started on Hollywood, guess we can’t watch movies either. See what I mean? I’m just saying we cannot do this sort of judgment without being hypocritical. It’s impossible. And that I’d rather judge people on their individual actions and who they are as a person. I find the black and white, social media thing where we just block people because they’re Catholic, or Mormon or whatever silly. I know plenty of great human beings who have opinions or beliefs I disagree with. As long as the individual isn’t actively homophobic or racist or whatever, I’m not going to get worked up over it.
@@Androsynth75 It's not black-or-white though, and the comparison is still flawed. I can't control what the political parties that are in power in my country do (I'm neither from the US nor UK nor any Anglophone country), all I can do is educate myself and others and then vote for the least bad option. What I can control is who I give my money to, which companies I boycott, which authors I support. Only focusing on the individual is ignoring the systemic. 10% of the money Sanderson makes goes to the LDS, and with that knowledge I can make the informed choice not to support him. How is this black-or-white thinking? I didn't disparage his character or anything, I'm simply pointing out that supporting someone who donates to specific institutions has a larger impact than just putting money in THEIR pocket. Also I am Catholic so lol I'm very aware of what's going on (and what the Catholic church has done throughout history) and left the church a while ago. 90% of my family and friends are Catholic (not practising, just on paper, because in my country that's the largest Christian denomination) so yeah I understand. Catholicism and Mormonism can't really be compared either because one is SO much more cult-like, and it takes a lot of courage and cutting off loved ones to leave, whereas I just filled out a form saying I didn't want to be part of the church anymore. I still have the right to judge someone for their actions based on religious beliefs (which, again, had nothing to do with Sanderson, I never said anything about his character).
I find it... interesting that your friend said judging someone on their religious beliefs -- a system they are choosing to participate in, choosing to believe in, especially for a person of Sanderson's age and ability to educate themselves and leave, if they thought it was appropriate -- is equivalent to judging someone on aspects of themselves over which they have no control. Religious belief, at some point, once a person is mature enough to think for themselves on the topic, becomes a choice. You are judging that person on their actions. If you're judging Mormon children for being Mormon, sure. That's different. They aren't in a position to challenge that authority and indoctrination. Sanderson is. And he isn't. In fact, he enables it by continuing to financially support it and work at their institutions. He may present himself as a kind, caring, charitable person who wants to encourage the next generation of creative writers, and that may all be true, but he is also directly contributing to a massively destructive and controlling cult-like religious organization that has done and will continue to do harmful things to its adherents and the populations of the countries in which it manages to take any sort of solid root. You can judge someone for that. All that being said, if you want to read his work, go for it. That is your prerogative. I would just suggest second-hand or libraries as your source if you have issue with the teaching and actions of the LDS church to avoid indirectly contributing to it.
ooh, I've always thought your dismissal of sanderson was because he writes books that are (i think/thought) not the type of fantasy you enjoy. coincidentally, yesterday he wrote a blog about having gay main characters and being an LGBT ally even though it goes against his church, which i found interesting (somewhat spoiler-y, though)
I think this is generally a good video, but I wouldn't go as far to say that disliking somebody's religious beliefs or somebody for those beliefs is "just as bad as" homophobia, racism, transphobia, etc. It's the tolerance paradox. When those ideas (assorted phobias and bigotries) are core to the religion or ideology, it is perfectly find to dislike it. It *does* actually affect other peoples' lifes negatively. Sanderson by all accounts seems to be a wonderful person, but it's absolutely fair to be cautious and to not want to support somebody who tithes and supports and organization that pushes many of those bad ideas.
I had seen Brandon's books around for years, never pursued his books. A friend of mine convinced me to give one of his books a try after I had seen his Year of Sanderson announcement video, and I found him charmingly funny. Picked up Tress of the Emerald Sea and I had so much fun, it made me remember why I loved the Fantasy genre again. I had no idea about his connection to the LDS church until after I read his book but everything I have seen about him, he seems like such a nice guy and an excited professor that loves his craft. There are certainly a lot of bad actors in organized religion, but among them I do think there are many good people. I'm excited to read more of his books this year.
I like Sandersons writing (his endings are so good), his lectures are great and he seems like a great person. I've read many of his books. If it was just that he was Mormon, that fact alone wouldn't bother me. I know a lot of good christians, muslims, hindus etc and just because someone comes from a religious background, and all the patriarchy etc that comes from that, doesn't make them a bad person. How youre born is for 95% of people the religion they end up, yes some people stop believing but we shouldn't blame the vast majority of people for not doing so. However he donates 10% of his income to the mormon church and that money directly goes to keeping up the patriarchial system. To keeping missionaries going. Idk I'm supporting him by occasionally buying his books, no ethical consumption under capitalism and I really hope he is a force for good in the church. But that 10% going to the church is why I'll never give him anything more than the 10-20 bucks for a paperback.
Wow, as a Korean reader who recently finished Mistborn trilogy, I was so surprised and amused to know that Sanderson worked two years in this country as a missionary. Lol. It may assuage your concern a little that in Korea where so many aggressive missionaries from all kinds of religions are pestering innocent citizens on the streets, those pair of clean shaven mormon guys with crew cut in conservative suits are viewed as most harmless and somewhat goofy kind. 😂😂 In fact, the most toxic kind of religion right now is the ultra conservative christian church, imported from the southern part of the usa. They have political clout and are vehemently campaigning against any slightly liberal agenda including Lgbt movements. As for Sanderson, I found quite curious that religions played so huge part in mistborn. After knowing his mormonism, I was rather disillusioned and became guarded, for I am also an Atheist and not very interested in religion-imbued fictions as a rule. (Though there are some authors and fictions dealing with established religions and individuals faiths exquisitely, Graeme Greene, Hyperion, ets.) Anyhow, as I rather enjoyed Sandersons characters and plot in mistborn, I'd give a chance to the first book of Stromlight Archive.😅😅
Is it also bigoted to judge a Republican based on their beliefs? I find the suggestion that you can be bigoted toward someone's religious affiliation which similar to politics, is a system of values and beliefs (which can be harmful), is absurd to me.
For most people, like the vast vast majority, religion is determined by how you're born. Almost all people have the religion of their parents, it's not that at a certain age they choose to be Muslim or Mormon or atheist from an option menu. The statistics are very clear in this. I hate most religions, I even hate how most people practice those religions. But I can't blame individuals for the circumstances of their birth.
@@IIxIxIvI think once people are adults they hold responsibility for their beliefs. I was a bigoted Christian at one point. Why? I was raised that way. I changed. It's really not some super special thing to believe harmful things for a spiritual or religious reason. It's still wrong
@@analiese8596yeah but Sanderson is not bigoted, he had multiple (positive) LGBTQ+ characters, complex and nuanced female characters. A lot of his characters are not white. I know queerphobic atheists. Bigotry is wrong, but someone's religion doesn't make them bigoted. Judge someone for being a *bigoted* Christian, not for being a bigoted *Christian*.
@@giuf175 techhnically, sure, but it's a choice in the same way that being obese, addicted, maybe even poor (depending on where you live) is a choice. Yes, there's (often difficult) choices an individual can make to not be religious. But judging someone for not taking those steps is a very high standard that we often don't apply to other things or ourselves. That's why we statistically see that someone's religion is mostly based on their environment. Treating someone else with respect is easy, changing your entire worldview, possibly fighting your family and friends and giving up that community can be be very very difficult, even if it's the right thing to do ultimately.
This is suuuuuch a good video! I had a lot of the same issues and concerns. I've stayed away from his work for a long time and I'm going to have to take a look into his works now. Probably go a route that doesn't give him oodles of money to donate to the church though
I am not willing to give my money to an artist who then gives a % of that money to a harmful organization. That's my own choice to make. What other people choose to read and how they spend their money is up to them. Like you said in your video about Neil Gaiman, choosing how and when to separate art from artist is an individual choice and not for me to make for anyone else. Alyssa Grenfell's content here on TH-cam is great, like another comment mentioned. If you're going to get information from someone still inside the church, (and in my opinion still complicit with their views) I think it's responsible to get information from someone who was there and chose to leave because of the inherent harm, too.
I think your skepticism was justified. The LDS church has been a part of the religious right here in the US. I’m a big fan of Sanderson and I’ve have the same concerns. Very glad you’ve enjoyed Mistborn, he has some really lovely work. Finishing up the new stormlight book right now and it’s just beautiful in many parts.
Wow. Never thought I’d be tempted to pick up a Sanderson book 👀 (ex Christian here been similarly irked by organised religion since I lost my faith) thanks for being vulnerable and open to changing your mind, really inspiring - love your videos as always!
But, the question is: does his booksale money go to the church? I mean, would you buy a Harry Potter spin-off by another author where JKR gets a share? Or a member of a right wing organisation that donates money to them from their book sales? In my opinion you can be a good writer and still support hateful people. And I choose not to give a cent to anyone that gives it to a hateful cause. There are so many, wonderful poc, queer etc authors, I can skip those that support things that go against my belief that everyone should be free, have all human rights and not be discriminated.
as an ex-mormon, I think Brandon Sanderson seems like a good person individually, but I can never make myself ignore all of the terrible things Mormonism did and currently does. I still read his books and enjoy them, but I don’t think my views on his religion will change because of that.
You are so brave for changing your opinion, and sharing it! This truly deserves an award of its own! And I also started reading Mistborn a few days ago, such a coincidence! Happy to go on this journey together! ❤
I’m a huge fan of Sanderson and have to say that just by reading the first 4 Stormlight books as well as Mistborn, I’d never have known he was Mormon. Not that it matters to me. His characters have all types of ethnicities, shades of religious, moral and ethical leanings. I also appreciate how he writes his queer characters with the same dignity and respect he affords his heterosexual characters. He is clearly anti-racism/bigotry and expresses that through his storytelling. I think a person must have an open mind and heart in order to do that. SO happy you’re entering this world! Amen! The first book I read of his was The Way of Kings so I recommend starting there with Stormlight
I really like Brandon Sandersons books. I want to reread the Mistborn series this year. He can write very good and interesting characters. I’m also interested in your thoughts about the other books in this series 😊 And I am very happy with this video ❤
I don’t think equating judging Sanderson for his religion to be the same as the LDS’s bigotry to be equivalent. You’re right to say Sanderson is more than just his church, he does seem a decent guy and from what you’ve described of his work to be more anti-colonialist than I expected is great. You’re utterly right not to judge him on his religion alone. However, he’s still comfortable being a member of and sending money to an institution that has DEEP real-world problems and influence on people’s lives. That isn’t say either you shouldn’t read his work or not buy it. I’m not fully sure where I stand on that myself. While there’s definitely way more to him than his faith, he still at the end of the day is supporting a deeply problematic (to put it lightly) institution. I’m likely rambling here, but you essentially shouldn’t be too hard on yourself for your old perspective on him. Edit: fan fact, I grew up in Chorley, which has the largest Mormon Temple in the UK, but the cowards at the Church call it the Preston Temple, Preston is about 10 miles away from the temple itself. My home town isn’t good enough for them it seems 😂
So I am religious myself, consider myself progressive Christian, and I have an interesting relationship with the Mormon church in that I have extremely significant issues with the organization itself, but I've also known a lot of Mormons who I've really liked as people. I'm kind of in the same place with Sanderson although I don't know him personally. His books have shown how his views and perspectives on things have evolved over time - his more recent stories have a lot more gay characters and even a minor character in Stormlight is trans and it's all fairly well-handled. Stormlight also has a really interesting look at the way its most prominent religion constructs very rigid rules around gender specifically and from an outside perspective, those rules are incredibly silly (for example, women's left hands are considered to be specifically lewd and they always wear either gloves or sleeves to cover them up) but also built into the world in fascinating ways. The whole time I was wondering "So what do you do if you're left-handed?" and there's a character in the third book who is and she finds the whole thing extremely annoying. You can definitely see an arc of personal growth in his writing and how he presents certain things as he goes further into his work. I do however want to say that I appreciate you taking the time to consider and change your opinion on this - I've run into a lot of people who adamantly refuse to and even though I sympathize with them since rarely does their hatred of religion come from absolutely nowhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful and prejudiced. I'm not exactly fond of the sort of puritanical, destructive Christianity that these people hate either, considering that I am autistic and ace, but I've talked to a lot of people who casually lump me in with it or act like I'm no different even though I agree with them on a number of things and the only real difference between their views and mine is that I'm not an atheist. I would personally recommend reading Mistborn era II and Tress of the Emerald Sea as well, as I think those are some of my favorite Sanderson works. Mistborn era II is set a few hundred years after the original trilogy and follows the setting into the advent of steam power and firearms and follows a cowboy detective and his partner as they solve mysteries in a steampunk world. It has some of the most interesting fight scenes I've read in a fantasy novel, with the same creative uses of magic that you see in the original trilogy with old west style gunplay. I especially appreciate the way Sanderson writes action because it's very hard to get right and he nails it often. Book 3 of Mistborn era II is probably my favorite Sanderson book, given that it takes that same steampunk cowboy detective framework and adds a sort of Indiana Jones artifact hunt element into it and it's just a delightful read the whole way through. Tress, meanwhile, is a swashbuckling pirate adventure set on a planet where the seas are made of really dangerous spores will instantly sprout if water so much as touches them. He uses a real scientific process as a foundation for this really wild setup, but pulls also on a ton of really fun pirate adventure tropes the whole way through. It's a rollicking good time the whole way through and probably my second favorite Sanderson book.
All Mormon men are “required” to do at least two years of overseas mission work (Mitt Romney was the same). For those of us who have a particular view of it (to put it politely! 😅), the mission conscription thing is definitely weird.
I think a lot of people use religion as a substitute for being a good person, but some use it as a guide and actually do the work to be a good person. So I understand all the red flags that wave when anyone is outwardly religious. But I agree with your assessment that Sanderson is someone who tries to live his beliefs and be a good person. From Sanderson, I've only read the 1st 3 Mistborn books and The Reckoners. I really enjoy the way he layers his stories and can keep the mysteries and reveals coming even after you think you should have seen the last layer. 2 more books worth after Final Empire will show just how deep the rabbit hole goes. I want to try other books of his, but I'm at the point where I want series to be complete before jumping in so I can limit wait time / rereads as books slowly come out.
The Orson Scott Card endorsement on his book Elantris initially put me off reading him because that guy has some wildly awful views and I just figured probably so does this Sandy guy. It does seem like I was wrong about Sanderson, he does seem like a genuinely nice guy whether that's just a public facing persona or not I cannot tell and I can only take what he presents as who he is. So I have enjoyed the hell out of his works. There's a lot and it's very fun. Mormons are certainly a lot and I won't lie my views on them were heavily tainted after reading Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven because holy shit. I really try to hope Sanderson isn't secretly that
I first read Sanderson's continuation of the Wheel of Time a few years ago, and then the Wax and Wayne series (a sequel to the Mistborn series set centuries later) a few months ago. I was not impressed by those. He was an extremely repetitive writer who I feel needed to edit his work down by at least 25% of its length. I then read his "The Frugal Wizard's Handbook for Surviving Medieval England." It was surprisingly good, perhaps because I came into it with lower expectations. Next I read the original Mistborn trilogy and found it far superior to the Wax and Wayne follow-ups. Then I read "Alcatraz Versus the Shattered Lens," which is quite bad. I am currently halfway through the second book of the Stormlight Archive, which seems better than Mistborn so far. I have not purchased any of these books, but checked them out from the local library. His better books had a wait list, which is why I read some out of order.
Nooo!!!! Not my favorite booktuber going down the Sanderson black hole. I have read the first 3 stormlight archive books and my god… he is the single most mediocre writer for how much hype he gets. If I ever have to read how much of a sad boy kaladan is again, I will vomit. He is so hamfisted with his portrayal of mental health issues, to the point of un readability. And don’t even get me started on shallon. Every time he starts deep diving into a character, he ruins them. Breaking them down into the same exact person, shoving their flaws down your throat over and over again. I think dalinar is the only character I didn’t hate by the end of their “character arc”. I remember starting the 4th book and immediately closing it cause kAlAdAn is dEpReSsEd was basically the first line. I did pick it back up again after I had cooled off some months later but then ole Sanderson started a deep dive into navani, and I would not watch my last favorite character ruined by poor character development. There are so many incredible authors out there that I don’t see why anyone has to read someone who continues to support a misogynistic racist patriarchal institution while only offering the middest of stories. As someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian home, it is quite alright to judge an American by their faith. Especially one who still supports the church. If your religion is misogynistic and harmful, then so are you. Even if it is just because you are part of that institution. I completely disagree with whoever told you it’s exactly the same as being judged for being an atheist. Atheists dont have an organization that has and continues to do so much harm to the world and people in it. Anyways. Ending my rant now. I get heated when someone tries to justify how great Sanderson is when he is just… fine.
Sanderson uses LDS motifs and teachings in his books. There are articles and interviews w him talking about this. That said, most of us unfamiliar w these beliefs (like humans can become gods), would not pick up on the LDS influence in his books. If he's a good writer and someone enjoys his books, why not read them as fantasy. The LDS and Catholic (and others) churches have horrendous histories of mysogyny, corruption and maltreatment of those in other religions or cutures, but many who practice the religions are very good people who are unaware of it's past misdeeds and even current political under currents. Sort of similar. I live in the US and grapple with accepting anyone who supports our soon to be President.Yet many of my neighbors/relatives who I know to be good caring people voted for him. It's shocking and scary to me that they support something I find so dangerous and abhorrent, but I will not cut them from my life because they are good(even if misguided:) people. It's complicated😔
As someone who was raised in and left the Mormon church, I think you're being too charitable. Judging someone for their religion is not bigoted - it's judging someone on their actions and beliefs. It's more like judging a Republican. Not all Mormons behave the same way, but this is someone who works at BYU. Maybe he thinks he can improve the system from within. But I've read Warbreaker and can totally see the religious influences. And the idea of the 'cosmere' with all the different gods and religions is the most Mormons shit I've ever heard. Not that it's bad, but it's Mormon AF.
I think Elantris was Sanderson's first novel, but I only first the first two Mistborn books. Not a huge fan. A bit too depressing, with the ash and gloom everywhere, and the formulaic superhero magic system is meh, but I can see why it has its fans. For another recommendation, I hear that the recent Metal from Heaven by August Clarke is reminiscent of it, but with lesbians fighting capitalism. It's a good practice not to judge people solely based on their religion. New Atheism, which I was a fan of in its heyday (and my youth), made it popular to mock religions and its adherents for its "factually wrong" beliefs, but this isn't what religion is about for most people. Many of them don't necessarily agree with some of the religion's doctrines. That said, when it comes to authors, I tend to shy away from those who I know have a conservative (non-bigoted!) worldview, because sometimes their work feels a bit too "clean" for my taste.
OMG I am soo glad you read sanderson, and more so read MISTBOURN!! Love it so much!! Id recommend moving into the stormlight archive once you've finished the 1st era (trilogy) of mistbourn. Stormlight is sandersons masterpeice, he has so many more naunced thoughts and ideas beyond what he could put into mistbourn is in many ways even stronger than mistbourn
Mistborn series is iconic for sure. I actually found out about his religious background after I had read the initial Mistborn trilogy, so I had less prejudice against his work. After knowing that, I became sceptical. But it can't be negated that he's a master of storytelling. Stormlight Archives is awesome (haven't finished reading all of them). I read it despite my misgivings about him. I still can't put him off the hook completely, but that's just my own opinion. He doesn't seem like a religious fanatic, more like someone who's obsessed with deconstructing faith.
I don't read Brandon Sanderson because I don't read fantasy books. I was also hesitation because of his church and anti LGBTQ+ beliefs (he did apologise and change his views on LGBTQ+). Watching BookTubers gush about his books made me pick up Starward and Starsight books which I got for free. I'm glad you realised your bias and worked on it.
my main issue (and the reason why I don't buy/read his books) is that part of the money he makes from book sales goes to the LDS. he might not hold certain bigoted views (anymore) but the church certainly does, so I think it's a fair point to criticise.
EDIT: okay I've been thinking about this a lot lol. highly recommend watching Alyssa Grenfell's video about Mormon authors (and read the comments), and generally look into what ex-Mormons have to say.
Interesting. Hot take: to avoid indirectly supporting the LDS i'd go looking for his books in the ✨library✨ (or buy them 2nd hand, damage done)
Yes!
I think it's ridiculous to say that judging someone for their mormonism is "just as bigoted as anything a church might teach". Mormonism is a religion deeply rooted in ideas of settler colonialism, manifest destiny, white supremacy etc, and I think it's totally fine to be wary of someone for being a Mormon. I'm sure Brandon Sanderson is a fine guy individually, but by staying a member of the Mormon church he is implicitly endorsing their stances. Not to mention the amount of money he donates to the church directly from the sales of his books. There's a great ex Mormon TH-camr called Alyssa Grenfell who has a video on why there are so many Mormon fantasy authors, well worth a watch! In that video she makes some really good points about Sandersons mormonism, and how he supports the church because it hasn't hurt him, while ignoring the real harm it does to others.
Her video and talking with my partner is what made me start to feel weird about Sanderson as someone who likes his writing.
@@quinncrook6058 I don't have an issue with people liking his writing, I'm sure he's a great author! He wouldn't be this popular if he wasn't. I just don't ever want to support him financially knowing where the money goes.
Ok then, Judgey Judgerson.
Alyssa is awesome! Best insights on Mormonism ever! 😊 And yes, Mormonism is … definitely something 🤣 I do wonder how clearly intelligent people (like Brandon Sanderson) can be part of it.
@@omalleysmith9100 I'll wear that badge proudly 😁
The “discriminating against religious belief is just as bigoted” is still something I think is wrong. There’s still very good reasons to be not immediately trustful of organised religion or its subscribers. it’s not bigoted to avoid people who fly the flag of ideas that do great harm. Being black or being Mormon are not the same type of thing and the prejudices against each group are not equal in weight.
However. Being black or being Mormon doesn’t dictate your whole person either. I’m only one book into Sanderson and granted haven’t seen him do a talk or anything but I suspect I’d have more in common with what I want for the world with him over, Kemi Badenoch for example.
I appreciate your point of view and how you formed a nuanced opinion. However I do believe there comes a point where you draw a line between one individual's personal beliefs and the practical, political ripercussioni of the organisations he associates himself with. I have absolutely no doubt believing that Mistborn and Stormlight are masterpieces of fantasy writing. But by buying them I know that I would be giving my money to someone who, by virtue of being part of the LDS church, regularly donates to a cult founded on misogyny, white supremacy and queerphobia. I'm sure Sanderson does not share most of those values, but he still financially supports an organisation that does.
I do not judge Sanderson's religious views and I'm sure that he is pretty progressive for a man of faith. But I'm not going to be giving my money to him either. Two things can be true.
If you don't want to buy his books, check out your local library.
as someone who chimed into the patreon discussion about sanderson and how i see him and his work personally, i really like this video! (i like all of yours but this video is important :) )
his magnum opus is/are "the stormlight archives" which are definitely some of the best books ive ever read. period.
I completely respect your honesty here. Here’s the thing:
The modern argument that ‘I can’t support person x because they believe y’ is fundamentally flawed, especially if you live in the western world.
Have we all checked to see if every item of clothing we own was made ethically? Every item of food cruelty free, fair trade and non exploitative? That political party we’re a member of has never done anything unethical, like ever, right? And those religions have always been perfectly loving and never harmed anyone, yeah? Or for the athiests, they’ve never done anything bad right?
Ultimately this stance makes anyone a hypocrite.
Fact is, all groups are made of people and half of those people are gonna be shitty assholes. A Modern member of that group may be actively disagree or be working trying to improve it.
Like, I’m not religious but there’s a church down the street whose wider organization has been historically homophobic that has a giant pride flag on the side of the building with a sign that says ‘all are welcome’. They’re lovely people.
Life is messy. Judge people by their actual actions.
with all due respect, the comparison here is flawed. clothes and food are essential, books are not. if an author monetarily supports an institution like the LDS, people are allowed not to support them, and also criticise them for that choice. when you know how the Mormon church has impacted US and global politics, it's difficult to argue that everyone should respect the active members of this church by giving them money.
@ I’m not at all arguing the Mormon church isn’t problematic. It is. I strongly oppose its belief system. Or saying you should support Sanderson. That’s your decision.
I’m just saying you and I are both members of political parties that have done bad things. Same with religions, if you’re at all religious. Same with most jobs. Same with ma y products we buy, even non necessities. You play video games? Horribly abusive practices have come out about many developers. Don’t even get me started on Hollywood, guess we can’t watch movies either. See what I mean?
I’m just saying we cannot do this sort of judgment without being hypocritical. It’s impossible. And that I’d rather judge people on their individual actions and who they are as a person.
I find the black and white, social media thing where we just block people because they’re Catholic, or Mormon or whatever silly. I know plenty of great human beings who have opinions or beliefs I disagree with.
As long as the individual isn’t actively homophobic or racist or whatever, I’m not going to get worked up over it.
@@Androsynth75 It's not black-or-white though, and the comparison is still flawed. I can't control what the political parties that are in power in my country do (I'm neither from the US nor UK nor any Anglophone country), all I can do is educate myself and others and then vote for the least bad option. What I can control is who I give my money to, which companies I boycott, which authors I support.
Only focusing on the individual is ignoring the systemic. 10% of the money Sanderson makes goes to the LDS, and with that knowledge I can make the informed choice not to support him. How is this black-or-white thinking? I didn't disparage his character or anything, I'm simply pointing out that supporting someone who donates to specific institutions has a larger impact than just putting money in THEIR pocket.
Also I am Catholic so lol I'm very aware of what's going on (and what the Catholic church has done throughout history) and left the church a while ago. 90% of my family and friends are Catholic (not practising, just on paper, because in my country that's the largest Christian denomination) so yeah I understand. Catholicism and Mormonism can't really be compared either because one is SO much more cult-like, and it takes a lot of courage and cutting off loved ones to leave, whereas I just filled out a form saying I didn't want to be part of the church anymore. I still have the right to judge someone for their actions based on religious beliefs (which, again, had nothing to do with Sanderson, I never said anything about his character).
I find it... interesting that your friend said judging someone on their religious beliefs -- a system they are choosing to participate in, choosing to believe in, especially for a person of Sanderson's age and ability to educate themselves and leave, if they thought it was appropriate -- is equivalent to judging someone on aspects of themselves over which they have no control. Religious belief, at some point, once a person is mature enough to think for themselves on the topic, becomes a choice. You are judging that person on their actions.
If you're judging Mormon children for being Mormon, sure. That's different. They aren't in a position to challenge that authority and indoctrination. Sanderson is. And he isn't. In fact, he enables it by continuing to financially support it and work at their institutions. He may present himself as a kind, caring, charitable person who wants to encourage the next generation of creative writers, and that may all be true, but he is also directly contributing to a massively destructive and controlling cult-like religious organization that has done and will continue to do harmful things to its adherents and the populations of the countries in which it manages to take any sort of solid root. You can judge someone for that.
All that being said, if you want to read his work, go for it. That is your prerogative. I would just suggest second-hand or libraries as your source if you have issue with the teaching and actions of the LDS church to avoid indirectly contributing to it.
ooh, I've always thought your dismissal of sanderson was because he writes books that are (i think/thought) not the type of fantasy you enjoy. coincidentally, yesterday he wrote a blog about having gay main characters and being an LGBT ally even though it goes against his church, which i found interesting (somewhat spoiler-y, though)
being able to change your
mind is a charming attitude,
honesty enriches your work. ⭐
I think this is generally a good video, but I wouldn't go as far to say that disliking somebody's religious beliefs or somebody for those beliefs is "just as bad as" homophobia, racism, transphobia, etc. It's the tolerance paradox. When those ideas (assorted phobias and bigotries) are core to the religion or ideology, it is perfectly find to dislike it. It *does* actually affect other peoples' lifes negatively. Sanderson by all accounts seems to be a wonderful person, but it's absolutely fair to be cautious and to not want to support somebody who tithes and supports and organization that pushes many of those bad ideas.
I had seen Brandon's books around for years, never pursued his books. A friend of mine convinced me to give one of his books a try after I had seen his Year of Sanderson announcement video, and I found him charmingly funny. Picked up Tress of the Emerald Sea and I had so much fun, it made me remember why I loved the Fantasy genre again. I had no idea about his connection to the LDS church until after I read his book but everything I have seen about him, he seems like such a nice guy and an excited professor that loves his craft. There are certainly a lot of bad actors in organized religion, but among them I do think there are many good people. I'm excited to read more of his books this year.
I like Sandersons writing (his endings are so good), his lectures are great and he seems like a great person. I've read many of his books. If it was just that he was Mormon, that fact alone wouldn't bother me. I know a lot of good christians, muslims, hindus etc and just because someone comes from a religious background, and all the patriarchy etc that comes from that, doesn't make them a bad person. How youre born is for 95% of people the religion they end up, yes some people stop believing but we shouldn't blame the vast majority of people for not doing so.
However he donates 10% of his income to the mormon church and that money directly goes to keeping up the patriarchial system. To keeping missionaries going.
Idk I'm supporting him by occasionally buying his books, no ethical consumption under capitalism and I really hope he is a force for good in the church. But that 10% going to the church is why I'll never give him anything more than the 10-20 bucks for a paperback.
Wow, as a Korean reader who recently finished Mistborn trilogy, I was so surprised and amused to know that Sanderson worked two years in this country as a missionary. Lol. It may assuage your concern a little that in Korea where so many aggressive missionaries from all kinds of religions are pestering innocent citizens on the streets, those pair of clean shaven mormon guys with crew cut in conservative suits are viewed as most harmless and somewhat goofy kind. 😂😂 In fact, the most toxic kind of religion right now is the ultra conservative christian church, imported from the southern part of the usa. They have political clout and are vehemently campaigning against any slightly liberal agenda including Lgbt movements.
As for Sanderson, I found quite curious that religions played so huge part in mistborn. After knowing his mormonism, I was rather disillusioned and became guarded, for I am also an Atheist and not very interested in religion-imbued fictions as a rule. (Though there are some authors and fictions dealing with established religions and individuals faiths exquisitely, Graeme Greene, Hyperion, ets.) Anyhow, as I rather enjoyed Sandersons characters and plot in mistborn, I'd give a chance to the first book of Stromlight Archive.😅😅
Is it also bigoted to judge a Republican based on their beliefs? I find the suggestion that you can be bigoted toward someone's religious affiliation which similar to politics, is a system of values and beliefs (which can be harmful), is absurd to me.
For most people, like the vast vast majority, religion is determined by how you're born. Almost all people have the religion of their parents, it's not that at a certain age they choose to be Muslim or Mormon or atheist from an option menu. The statistics are very clear in this. I hate most religions, I even hate how most people practice those religions. But I can't blame individuals for the circumstances of their birth.
@@IIxIxIvI think once people are adults they hold responsibility for their beliefs. I was a bigoted Christian at one point. Why? I was raised that way. I changed. It's really not some super special thing to believe harmful things for a spiritual or religious reason. It's still wrong
@@analiese8596yeah but Sanderson is not bigoted, he had multiple (positive) LGBTQ+ characters, complex and nuanced female characters. A lot of his characters are not white. I know queerphobic atheists. Bigotry is wrong, but someone's religion doesn't make them bigoted. Judge someone for being a *bigoted* Christian, not for being a bigoted *Christian*.
@@IIxIxIv Religion is a choice
@@giuf175 techhnically, sure, but it's a choice in the same way that being obese, addicted, maybe even poor (depending on where you live) is a choice. Yes, there's (often difficult) choices an individual can make to not be religious. But judging someone for not taking those steps is a very high standard that we often don't apply to other things or ourselves. That's why we statistically see that someone's religion is mostly based on their environment. Treating someone else with respect is easy, changing your entire worldview, possibly fighting your family and friends and giving up that community can be be very very difficult, even if it's the right thing to do ultimately.
This is suuuuuch a good video!
I had a lot of the same issues and concerns. I've stayed away from his work for a long time and I'm going to have to take a look into his works now.
Probably go a route that doesn't give him oodles of money to donate to the church though
I am not willing to give my money to an artist who then gives a % of that money to a harmful organization. That's my own choice to make. What other people choose to read and how they spend their money is up to them. Like you said in your video about Neil Gaiman, choosing how and when to separate art from artist is an individual choice and not for me to make for anyone else.
Alyssa Grenfell's content here on TH-cam is great, like another comment mentioned. If you're going to get information from someone still inside the church, (and in my opinion still complicit with their views) I think it's responsible to get information from someone who was there and chose to leave because of the inherent harm, too.
I think your skepticism was justified. The LDS church has been a part of the religious right here in the US. I’m a big fan of Sanderson and I’ve have the same concerns. Very glad you’ve enjoyed Mistborn, he has some really lovely work. Finishing up the new stormlight book right now and it’s just beautiful in many parts.
Wow. Never thought I’d be tempted to pick up a Sanderson book 👀 (ex Christian here been similarly irked by organised religion since I lost my faith) thanks for being vulnerable and open to changing your mind, really inspiring - love your videos as always!
But, the question is: does his booksale money go to the church?
I mean, would you buy a Harry Potter spin-off by another author where JKR gets a share?
Or a member of a right wing organisation that donates money to them from their book sales?
In my opinion you can be a good writer and still support hateful people.
And I choose not to give a cent to anyone that gives it to a hateful cause. There are so many, wonderful poc, queer etc authors, I can skip those that support things that go against my belief that everyone should be free, have all human rights and not be discriminated.
He donates 10% to the LDS.
according to the church you can only go to heaven if you donate 10% of your income to it
as an ex-mormon, I think Brandon Sanderson seems like a good person individually, but I can never make myself ignore all of the terrible things Mormonism did and currently does. I still read his books and enjoy them, but I don’t think my views on his religion will change because of that.
You are so brave for changing your opinion, and sharing it! This truly deserves an award of its own! And I also started reading Mistborn a few days ago, such a coincidence! Happy to go on this journey together! ❤
If you did video updates while you read Stormlight Archive I'd watch that. I love it when people discover his books.
the irony is that he's being cancelled by a large part of his fans because he started to add lgbt characters in his books
I’m a huge fan of Sanderson and have to say that just by reading the first 4 Stormlight books as well as Mistborn, I’d never have known he was Mormon. Not that it matters to me. His characters have all types of ethnicities, shades of religious, moral and ethical leanings. I also appreciate how he writes his queer characters with the same dignity and respect he affords his heterosexual characters. He is clearly anti-racism/bigotry and expresses that through his storytelling. I think a person must have an open mind and heart in order to do that. SO happy you’re entering this world!
Amen!
The first book I read of his was The Way of Kings so I recommend starting there with Stormlight
I really like Brandon Sandersons books. I want to reread the Mistborn series this year. He can write very good and interesting characters. I’m also interested in your thoughts about the other books in this series 😊 And I am very happy with this video ❤
I don’t think equating judging Sanderson for his religion to be the same as the LDS’s bigotry to be equivalent. You’re right to say Sanderson is more than just his church, he does seem a decent guy and from what you’ve described of his work to be more anti-colonialist than I expected is great. You’re utterly right not to judge him on his religion alone.
However, he’s still comfortable being a member of and sending money to an institution that has DEEP real-world problems and influence on people’s lives.
That isn’t say either you shouldn’t read his work or not buy it. I’m not fully sure where I stand on that myself.
While there’s definitely way more to him than his faith, he still at the end of the day is supporting a deeply problematic (to put it lightly) institution.
I’m likely rambling here, but you essentially shouldn’t be too hard on yourself for your old perspective on him.
Edit: fan fact, I grew up in Chorley, which has the largest Mormon Temple in the UK, but the cowards at the Church call it the Preston Temple, Preston is about 10 miles away from the temple itself. My home town isn’t good enough for them it seems 😂
Appreciate your ability to be open-minded, research your own prejudice, and change your mind based on what you discover.
So I am religious myself, consider myself progressive Christian, and I have an interesting relationship with the Mormon church in that I have extremely significant issues with the organization itself, but I've also known a lot of Mormons who I've really liked as people. I'm kind of in the same place with Sanderson although I don't know him personally. His books have shown how his views and perspectives on things have evolved over time - his more recent stories have a lot more gay characters and even a minor character in Stormlight is trans and it's all fairly well-handled. Stormlight also has a really interesting look at the way its most prominent religion constructs very rigid rules around gender specifically and from an outside perspective, those rules are incredibly silly (for example, women's left hands are considered to be specifically lewd and they always wear either gloves or sleeves to cover them up) but also built into the world in fascinating ways. The whole time I was wondering "So what do you do if you're left-handed?" and there's a character in the third book who is and she finds the whole thing extremely annoying. You can definitely see an arc of personal growth in his writing and how he presents certain things as he goes further into his work. I do however want to say that I appreciate you taking the time to consider and change your opinion on this - I've run into a lot of people who adamantly refuse to and even though I sympathize with them since rarely does their hatred of religion come from absolutely nowhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful and prejudiced. I'm not exactly fond of the sort of puritanical, destructive Christianity that these people hate either, considering that I am autistic and ace, but I've talked to a lot of people who casually lump me in with it or act like I'm no different even though I agree with them on a number of things and the only real difference between their views and mine is that I'm not an atheist.
I would personally recommend reading Mistborn era II and Tress of the Emerald Sea as well, as I think those are some of my favorite Sanderson works. Mistborn era II is set a few hundred years after the original trilogy and follows the setting into the advent of steam power and firearms and follows a cowboy detective and his partner as they solve mysteries in a steampunk world. It has some of the most interesting fight scenes I've read in a fantasy novel, with the same creative uses of magic that you see in the original trilogy with old west style gunplay. I especially appreciate the way Sanderson writes action because it's very hard to get right and he nails it often. Book 3 of Mistborn era II is probably my favorite Sanderson book, given that it takes that same steampunk cowboy detective framework and adds a sort of Indiana Jones artifact hunt element into it and it's just a delightful read the whole way through. Tress, meanwhile, is a swashbuckling pirate adventure set on a planet where the seas are made of really dangerous spores will instantly sprout if water so much as touches them. He uses a real scientific process as a foundation for this really wild setup, but pulls also on a ton of really fun pirate adventure tropes the whole way through. It's a rollicking good time the whole way through and probably my second favorite Sanderson book.
All Mormon men are “required” to do at least two years of overseas mission work (Mitt Romney was the same). For those of us who have a particular view of it (to put it politely! 😅), the mission conscription thing is definitely weird.
I think a lot of people use religion as a substitute for being a good person, but some use it as a guide and actually do the work to be a good person. So I understand all the red flags that wave when anyone is outwardly religious. But I agree with your assessment that Sanderson is someone who tries to live his beliefs and be a good person. From Sanderson, I've only read the 1st 3 Mistborn books and The Reckoners. I really enjoy the way he layers his stories and can keep the mysteries and reveals coming even after you think you should have seen the last layer. 2 more books worth after Final Empire will show just how deep the rabbit hole goes. I want to try other books of his, but I'm at the point where I want series to be complete before jumping in so I can limit wait time / rereads as books slowly come out.
The Orson Scott Card endorsement on his book Elantris initially put me off reading him because that guy has some wildly awful views and I just figured probably so does this Sandy guy.
It does seem like I was wrong about Sanderson, he does seem like a genuinely nice guy whether that's just a public facing persona or not I cannot tell and I can only take what he presents as who he is. So I have enjoyed the hell out of his works. There's a lot and it's very fun.
Mormons are certainly a lot and I won't lie my views on them were heavily tainted after reading Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven because holy shit. I really try to hope Sanderson isn't secretly that
I first read Sanderson's continuation of the Wheel of Time a few years ago, and then the Wax and Wayne series (a sequel to the Mistborn series set centuries later) a few months ago. I was not impressed by those. He was an extremely repetitive writer who I feel needed to edit his work down by at least 25% of its length.
I then read his "The Frugal Wizard's Handbook for Surviving Medieval England." It was surprisingly good, perhaps because I came into it with lower expectations.
Next I read the original Mistborn trilogy and found it far superior to the Wax and Wayne follow-ups.
Then I read "Alcatraz Versus the Shattered Lens," which is quite bad.
I am currently halfway through the second book of the Stormlight Archive, which seems better than Mistborn so far.
I have not purchased any of these books, but checked them out from the local library. His better books had a wait list, which is why I read some out of order.
Nooo!!!! Not my favorite booktuber going down the Sanderson black hole. I have read the first 3 stormlight archive books and my god… he is the single most mediocre writer for how much hype he gets. If I ever have to read how much of a sad boy kaladan is again, I will vomit. He is so hamfisted with his portrayal of mental health issues, to the point of un readability. And don’t even get me started on shallon. Every time he starts deep diving into a character, he ruins them. Breaking them down into the same exact person, shoving their flaws down your throat over and over again. I think dalinar is the only character I didn’t hate by the end of their “character arc”.
I remember starting the 4th book and immediately closing it cause kAlAdAn is dEpReSsEd was basically the first line. I did pick it back up again after I had cooled off some months later but then ole Sanderson started a deep dive into navani, and I would not watch my last favorite character ruined by poor character development.
There are so many incredible authors out there that I don’t see why anyone has to read someone who continues to support a misogynistic racist patriarchal institution while only offering the middest of stories.
As someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian home, it is quite alright to judge an American by their faith. Especially one who still supports the church. If your religion is misogynistic and harmful, then so are you. Even if it is just because you are part of that institution. I completely disagree with whoever told you it’s exactly the same as being judged for being an atheist. Atheists dont have an organization that has and continues to do so much harm to the world and people in it.
Anyways. Ending my rant now. I get heated when someone tries to justify how great Sanderson is when he is just… fine.
Sanderson uses LDS motifs and teachings in his books. There are articles and interviews w him talking about this. That said, most of us unfamiliar w these beliefs (like humans can become gods), would not pick up on the LDS influence in his books. If he's a good writer and someone enjoys his books, why not read them as fantasy. The LDS and Catholic (and others) churches have horrendous histories of mysogyny, corruption and maltreatment of those in other religions or cutures, but many who practice the religions are very good people who are unaware of it's past misdeeds and even current political under currents. Sort of similar. I live in the US and grapple with accepting anyone who supports our soon to be President.Yet many of my neighbors/relatives who I know to be good caring people voted for him. It's shocking and scary to me that they support something I find so dangerous and abhorrent, but I will not cut them from my life because they are good(even if misguided:) people. It's complicated😔
As someone who was raised in and left the Mormon church, I think you're being too charitable. Judging someone for their religion is not bigoted - it's judging someone on their actions and beliefs. It's more like judging a Republican. Not all Mormons behave the same way, but this is someone who works at BYU. Maybe he thinks he can improve the system from within. But I've read Warbreaker and can totally see the religious influences. And the idea of the 'cosmere' with all the different gods and religions is the most Mormons shit I've ever heard. Not that it's bad, but it's Mormon AF.
Willow would you say Brandon Sanderson is how you could coexist religious folks like me.
I think Elantris was Sanderson's first novel, but I only first the first two Mistborn books. Not a huge fan. A bit too depressing, with the ash and gloom everywhere, and the formulaic superhero magic system is meh, but I can see why it has its fans. For another recommendation, I hear that the recent Metal from Heaven by August Clarke is reminiscent of it, but with lesbians fighting capitalism.
It's a good practice not to judge people solely based on their religion. New Atheism, which I was a fan of in its heyday (and my youth), made it popular to mock religions and its adherents for its "factually wrong" beliefs, but this isn't what religion is about for most people. Many of them don't necessarily agree with some of the religion's doctrines.
That said, when it comes to authors, I tend to shy away from those who I know have a conservative (non-bigoted!) worldview, because sometimes their work feels a bit too "clean" for my taste.
6:46 no, I’m sorry but NO. This is a ridiculous take that drives me up the WALL
📚📚📚
I hated the final empire especially kelsier so i don't think he's a good fit for me
OMG I am soo glad you read sanderson, and more so read MISTBOURN!! Love it so much!! Id recommend moving into the stormlight archive once you've finished the 1st era (trilogy) of mistbourn. Stormlight is sandersons masterpeice, he has so many more naunced thoughts and ideas beyond what he could put into mistbourn is in many ways even stronger than mistbourn
Mistborn series is iconic for sure.
I actually found out about his religious background after I had read the initial Mistborn trilogy, so I had less prejudice against his work. After knowing that, I became sceptical. But it can't be negated that he's a master of storytelling.
Stormlight Archives is awesome (haven't finished reading all of them). I read it despite my misgivings about him. I still can't put him off the hook completely, but that's just my own opinion.
He doesn't seem like a religious fanatic, more like someone who's obsessed with deconstructing faith.
I don't read Brandon Sanderson because I don't read fantasy books. I was also hesitation because of his church and anti LGBTQ+ beliefs (he did apologise and change his views on LGBTQ+).
Watching BookTubers gush about his books made me pick up Starward and Starsight books which I got for free.
I'm glad you realised your bias and worked on it.