Best Of: The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- The holidays are one of the most social times of the year, filled with parties and family get-togethers. Many of us see friends and loved ones who we barely - or never - saw all year. Maybe we resolve to stay in better touch in the new year. But then somehow, once again, life gets in the way.
This is not an accident. More and more people are living lives that feel lonelier and more socially isolated than they want them to be. And that’s largely because of social structures we’ve chosen - wittingly or unwittingly - to build for ourselves.
Sheila Liming is an associate professor of communications and creative media at Champlain College and the author of “Hanging Out: The Radical Power of Killing Time (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) .” In the book, Liming investigates what she calls the “quiet catastrophe” brewing in our social lives: the devastating fact that we’ve grown much less likely to simply spend time together outside our partnerships, workplaces and family units. What would it look like to reconfigure our world to make social connection easier for all of us?
This conversation was recorded in April 2023. But we wanted to re-air it now, at a moment when many of us are spending more time in the company of people we like and love, and remembering how good that feels (at least some of the time). If you feel motivated to have a more social life next year, hopefully this episode provides a clearer sense of the structures that might be standing in the way, what it would look like to knock a couple down, and what you could build instead.
Mentioned:
“You’d Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don’t You? (annehelen.substack.com/p/youd...) ” by Anne Helen Petersen
“The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake (www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...) ” by David Brooks
Full Surrogacy Now (www.versobooks.com/products/7...) by Sophie Lewis
Regarding the Pain of Others (us.macmillan.com/books/978031...) by Susan Sontag
Letters from Tove (www.upress.umn.edu/book-divis...) by Tove Jansson
Book Recommendations:
Black Paper (press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/...) by Teju Cole
On the Inconvenience of Other People (www.dukeupress.edu/on-the-inc...) by Lauren Berlant
The Hare (twodollarradio.com/products/hare) by Melanie Finn
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, with Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski.
The best benefits of my low wage service job at a local restaurant are the elements of cyclical hanging out and extended family. Thank you for helping me realize this.
I was a broke line cook from 15-30 years old but the 12 hour shifts where you and a group of other people are bored and stuck together really makes it good bonding experience in retrospect
I have worked as a psychotherapist for a long while. Around 2005, young people I was seeing started to talk about how they were very uncomfortable having to interact face to face with others. They shared how they could not tolerate the possiblility of " conflict". Since the early 2000s more of my clients have voiced the same experience. I have come to believe that a growing number of people are not learning basic communication and interaction skills. As we have come to increasingly rely on digital communication and interactions, we may not be developing the skills needed for face to face interaction. Alot gets lost in translation when we interact/communicate primarily via electronic means.
Additionally more young people have had a high percentage of their time planned and managed by others. Whatever has happened to free unplanned time?
As adults my children thanked me for allowing them free time. My son also read To Kill a Mockingbird when he was 12 and said it was a book, "About a time when kids were free." 😕
I agree with your points. You superbly articulated what I have been feeling since around 2012-13. I remember the "pre-technology" period of the 1970s (when I was a kid) & 1980s & 90s. People seemed a lot closer & more easily interacted, even in the face of disagreements etc. Something is wrong with this new Smartphone generation.
I'm in my 40s but live and work with 20 to 30-something folks and see this phenomenon A LOT. Plenty have difficulty having basic interaction and communication where they're not being misunderstood or misunderstanding others. It's so painful to witness. I'm not the happiest person myself but I feel fortunate to not have come up in the world during these current times. Anxiety is thru the roof for most of these young people! They struggle so much in ways I never did as a young adult. Maybe it was the tech (computers and smartphones) that caused all of it and because we didn't have that before, older people still know how to talk to each other in face to face interactions or by having actual phone conversations. I don't know. But I agree. It's on a societal epidemic level that needs to be directly addressed.
Well start by not automatically puting an old person into an old persons home. Extended families have their problems but loneliness is not one of them.
Work hours should also be decreased so that people have time not only for their families but also for friends.
Its the damn cell phones. Parents dont even talk to their kids any more.
I bumped in your title and I had to come in to watch. Wow 😮
This subject is so important, yet the interviewee has such a myopic view of this problem.
The largest group struggling with social isolation is divorced older white men, which in the present social climate, we care very little or not at all. They have the highest substance abuse rates and the highest suicide rates.
This overwhelmingly is a male problem, a older problem and a white problem.
Why should we give sympathy to this group?
Because this group votes for Trump, and they believe the election was stolen, and they hold conspiratorial beliefs and they are angry.
I hope I got someone's attention.
I can't find sympathy for Trump, but I think you're right about Trump supporters. I've been reading Studs Terkel's "Working." The stories have a common thread of bitterness and resentment over feeling disrespected and unappreciated. I see in this the seeds of the bewildering support for Trump. It does not explain everything about support for Trump, but I think it is a big part. He presents himself as their "retribution." They have a legitimate grievance. He provides scapegoats for their anger and simplistic solutions.
Your point about the belief that the election was stolen and other conspiracy theories can, IMHO, be tied to the fact that they/we came of age during the Watergate scandal, the publication of the Pentagon Papers, and a Congressional investigation that concluded that it is likely that more than one gunman assassinated JFK. Then Ronald Regan told us that the government was "the problem," not the solution. Trust in government has been declining since.
Be safe. Be well. May all your ups and downs have only soft landings. ☮☮🕊🕊☯☯🙏🙏🎅🎅🎄🎄🤶🤶
This is very on point. Divorce men have lost their children, or have ben turned into visitors at best. 80% of females instigate divorce. These men become indentured having to maintain and support the mother and children's lifestyle at marriage before the family was split into two housholds..or a household and apartement-hold for the men. Men are becoming disposable in our society and have lost their voice. Divorced men have especially been abused by a court system, lost meaningful relationships with their children, are indentured, broken, and emotionally spent yet your comment on the matter is the rare one. Men are all considered one step away from being a predator and are only loved for what they can provide. The current message we're sending our children about how men should be treated is terrifying and will have negative effects for many generations.
Do you have data? The survey he Ezra cites seems to show the loneliness existing across the board. But no doubt, isolation has led to people buying into an unhealthy cult like experience
@@JMBvideo This is certainly not a difficult subject to gain uderstanding of it, if you are looking for it.
Start with, loneliness in divorced older white men.
That is where you could start.
Btw, I'm part of that group, divorced older white male.
I recently remarried but my 11 years were tough. Look at suicide & substance abuse rates for divorced men.
75% of all suicides are men and divorced men have 3x higher suicide rate than women.
This whole topic would make no sense to anyone from Spain. Children are integrated into all aspects of life-including bars. You don’t just drop your friends and fun. America is weird.
It starts in early childhood by prioritizing “play”.
The key thing is valuing hanging out. We all tended to hang out more when we were younger. Why? We had sufficient spare time. We should have spare time now, but too many of us have convinced ourselves that we do not. Why? Much of what most of us do outside of our normal work duties is not that important. We need to accept that. Hanging out is more important and more valuable than what we have decided to do.
_Bowling Alone_ came out 23 years ago. Did this author read it?
Dismissing people more easily is not done without reason; you HAVE TO do that to live online. Arguing with every person who says something unreasonable or uninformed is a completely impractical, exhausting, and unsustainable practice, so it's important to be able to let it go, and the only way to do that is to accept, "This person and his opinion don't matter to me."
My friend lived in co-housing, it was great, would highly recommend
I have been thinking this myself, so of course these people sound amazingly intelligent to also recognize the problem. We undervalue the skills we develop and the benefits of living in community to cleave to the American ideal of rugged individualism. So it is hard to reintroduce the idea of communal living as a worthwhile choice. We’re married to unrealistic and unhealthy ways of life because of how we assign value and status. This cycle of independent living also means children don’t grow up fully realized and properly socialized by having a supportive safety net.
Very important topic. Almost all of the causes of loneliness described here are results of late stage Capitalism. Less free time, shrinking public spaces, cars, suburbs. Even the way social media works (controlled by profit seeking corporations) is to commodify you and pray on your loneliness. Like Ezra says, wealthy people, and to some degree this author and her partner, are able to buy their way out of the loneliness trap by essentially commodifying other gig workers and buying them into their “family”. (Until they no longer need them). Im not an expert on Marx, but I think he and his contemporaries talked about the isolating nature of capitalism and industrialization. This author isn’t really saying anything groundbreaking if you’re already familiar with Capitalism critique.
The silver lining is - if you realize how lonely everyone else is, you can more easily engage them. So I just blow past the earbuds and engaged with 2 interesting looking women at the gym and as it turns out they were dying to talk to me. Just needed permission. You have to fight against this late stage capitalism. You have to dedicate your life to doing so. Its killing us and making us miserable
We have gotten richer? 1% annual growth in real median household income 1980-2020. And this is with TWO INCOME families the norm. So, don't say we grew richer.
Even as a Reagan Republican, I agree with you. If you remove the top 10% of income earners in the US, the rest are barely floating. That is not to say, as a whole, we Americans are a financially responsible group but the majority of us are really struggling.
When I saw this posted I clicked immediately thinking this would be about isolation. 16 mins in, NOPE, just two wealthy successful liberal elite coastal bubble millennials complaining about how hard it was to stop job hopping from successful career to even more successful career to start their happy little families.
Meanwhile every weekend I go 48 hours without seeing another human.
Sounds like you’re agreeing with them. While also having contempt for them?
@@JMBvideo Sometimes I listen to one song "When I Was Done Dying" by Dan Deacon on repeat for six hours straight. Like a religious mantra I keep repeating the same 3 minute audio loop for six hours. And at a certain point I almost start to hallucinate. Because I don't feel like I'm here anymore, I've left the world. I feel like I'm operating a puppet, like I'm not a human, and nothing matters. I feel like an astronaut hurdling through empty space with nothing aruond me. And I've been floating so long I can't even see the earth anymore, "there is only empty space, and in it a lost and homeless and wandering and companionless and indestructible thought. And I am that thought. And god, and the universe, and time, and life, and death, and joy and sorrow and pain only a grotesque and brutal dream, evolved from the frantic imagination of that same Thought." Mark Twain wrote that after his wife and two of his kids passed away in 10 years.
I can't agree with them. We're not the same species. I live like a creature compared to these spoiled elites.
I'm one those 40-something people that lives in a co-living/group home situation. Its a choice I had to make out of economic necessity more than anything. And yes, I always get met with a combination of "wonder" (How can you stand living with other people! I can't. I just can't) and probably some inner judgment and derision from others. lol But you know what, his arrangement solves 2 issues for me. I don't have to spend an entire paycheck on rent and I'm able to save money. And I'm not lonely. Living with others works for me and I just laugh at other people's commentary.
This is an American problem,like many problems. I live in Italy and this is NOT a problem. I think it’s because of American narcissism. This is another self help idea which is hilarious! One reason I moved to Italy.
You may not personally feel social isolation but this problem is universal in western democracies. Google, Loneliness in western Europe to verify my statement. But I do agree, the problem maybe larger in the US because our society's high value of independence and individualism which probably is reflected in levels of narcissism.
I'll have to agree. I'm Filipino-American and feel so much more well-adjusted than other Americans. Because I come from a culture that values family and community more than individualism. I feel so much more well-adjusted on a personal and social level because I know I have family and friends who care about me and who'll look out for me. This really is a Western society type of phenomenon.
Italy. Home of elderly dying alone in nearly extinct villages.
@@regbhyyu The worst age demographics in Europe and one of the worst in the world.
"A great Hanging" LOLOLOL
@41:14 I think in person I dont feel contempt for my friends is because I am able to see different layers of that person from the great, good, not so good & ugly.
Whereas online its very rare to get to know a person fully & U get to see only very few sides of a person
Haha! I can relate to the "group house" scenario! Im in my 40s and live in a group house/apartment type setting. It does get "filthy" esp the sink but Im friends with my roommates and hang out all the time! I dont have to eat dinners alone, we check up on each other and ask how we're doing, and one of the roommates has a cat who is now everybody's comfort animal. Lol I get exasperated with everyone's messes in the kitchen and living room and bathroom but you know what, I'm not lonely! I know lots of people can't or choose not to live with others. Perhaps that needs to change?
I would like to know what these people would do if a nun attacked their mother.
The part you left out is that living in shared housing sucks. Most of us are happy to get out of dorms or family homes to our own home. Maybe we've taken space too far, but going back to forced interaction is not the answer, it's just a low standard of living. I'd be curious to see if this isolation phenomenon is American, Western, or global within the developed world. Is it the same in Japan or Germany? Why or why not?
Look up “the Peckham experiment” / there was a good book about it called “being me and also us”
I'm still on 6:00 but I will make a suggestion: though the urbanistic aspect of America contributes to the loneliness, its contribution is old. Here's a suggestion to be looked into: social media. "But how?", you may ask: on social media I can have a group of people with whom I agree and we reinforce each other's points of view. My friends are the result of geography and history and we don't actually agree on every subjetct and since I'm so used to talking to people who agree with me all the time it gets really annoying talking to people who disagree with me. (BTW, she touches close to base around 10:00)
An observation. Mr. Klein: the US has gotten richer but the people have not. Financial anxiety also contributes to loneliness.
I can't believe it people are complaining in the comments about this enlightening podcast what's going on?!
Some people hate the NYT intensely and look for any possible criticism to throw at it, whether in good faith or bad.
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This world could've been so special but it totally sucks. I needed a living space with some privacy, especially from noise because I have a condition that makes me sensitive to noise. But my only choices are connected housing. And if I was able to afford a single family home my neighbors would be within arms reach. That's not privacy! I also needed community spaces. For example, maybe there could've been a place to go to play board games, like Scrabble, which is a great way to hang out and meet people. There is no such place. I also needed this world to be totally accepting of LGBTQ+ and given that it's not it makes connecting with people very difficult, unless it's meaningless surface level relationships, where people don't have a problem with me because I'm generally pleasant (I'm a trans woman). In addition to that it's a little hard to have meaningful social relationships if I'm in the closet, as I was for so many decades. Now that I'm much older I finally get to be me. Too little, too late. I admit I have an anxiety disorder, OCD, and this disorder wants me to be isolated. So generally speaking it's not all society's fault. But this world makes it so difficult for me, a disabled person that has obstacles to being able to socialize, to connect anyway and at the same time it's so intrusive by forcing me to live with people all around me. My neighbor's window looks like it's within arms reach. So creepy.
Another social problem as I've aged has been my hearing. I'm still sensitive to noises, unfortunately, but I have lost a lot of my hearing which makes socializing so difficult. I think the subject of how people who are hard of hearing can still socialize should be discussed. In may case, it's just another reason that has me isolated in this Hell.
I'm sad to say that this conversation was fascinating (so I gave it a thumbs up👍) but, really, it's not going to lead to a better society or a better situation for me. It's hopeless.